WEBVTT - The Future of Bitcoin Investing: An In-depth Talk with Christopher Calicott 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.680 Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss Show, 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.360 where we always talk about the decentralized revolution, talking about 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:08.559 the way the world is changing, and of course we 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.440 always look at it through the lens of politics, finance, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.680 and technology technologies. The technology always the piece that changes 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:17.119 the world as we know, and so we like to 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:18.880 dig into that and I try to bring to you 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.159 some thought provoking pieces to help you think about the 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:25.080 world differently, some latest breaking news headlines, and some interesting 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:26.759 guests that you don't have to just listen to me 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:29.160 all the time. And that's what we have for you today. 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.159 I'm sitting down with Christopher Calcott. He is the co 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:37.120 founder and managing director at Trammel Venture Partners TVP, based 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.840 out of Austin, Texas, and he is an investor. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:41.720 Of a fund. We're going to dig into that. 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:43.839 So we're going to talk about what's going on with 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.839 the overall macro investing space, the environment for investing and 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.240 not just public equities, but into private equity, mergers, acquisitions, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:53.440 venture capital, things like that. 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.640 We're going to talk about the state. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:02.720 Of bitcoin and crypto, bitcoin investor, venture capital, investing, some deals, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:04.120 some things that are looking at some of the most 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.720 interesting things and then we'll start to maybe have fun. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:08.640 Speculate about where this future goes. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.000 So stick around for this whole conversation. Christopher, thanks so 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:13.080 much for joining me today. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.119 Thanks for having me. Mark's good to see you again. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:15.880 Yeah, great scene. 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:17.880 It is always a pleasure talking to you. You know, 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.920 this is a topic that I'm super interested in always. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.600 I'm always paying attention to this as as someone who 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.119 invests through the bitcoin ecosystem buying bitcoin, yes, but through 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.000 the ecosystem as well. And it's also something that's been 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.520 kind of top of mind as I'm working through this presentation. 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:35.320 I'm about to go give it a bit block boom. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:39.199 But let's talk about this from a from a top 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.400 down approach, and so, how do you see the macro 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.800 picture overall affecting you know, the public markets, but then 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.240 the relationship to more institutional investor investing. 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:57.080 It's a great question and a really interesting moment in history, 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.160 I would say, given how things have been folded back 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:07.440 to twenty nineteen and certainly twenty twenty moving forward through COVID. Obviously, 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.600 in public markets there was a big boom cycle last year, 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:17.680 though we've seen really large retracements bottom is probably put in. 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.800 It looks like inequities markets this year a bit of 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.640 a rebound. But what's happened in the interim is that 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.480 whenever there's some fear in the market, typically the M 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.560 and A activity drives up, and large institutional allocators, which 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.519 we can talk about. I think it's interesting with Bitcoin native, 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.480 where we're focused day to day, adventure capital have not, 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:45.920 for the most part, really gotten off zero, and what 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.239 we're thinking about now is when this actually picks back up. 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:54.520 We had the great fortune in our first fund back 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.480 in Q four, we had a company that was an 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.560 apply to I company outside of the bitcoin native space 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:05.720 that actually completed an acquisition. I was super excited and 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.440 happy for the founders and their families. It was their 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.480 first company that they founded. But interestingly, they actually got 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.680 that transaction closed in Q four. Q four of twenty 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.880 twenty two and Q one this year were about a 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:24.640 fifteen year EBB in the M and A activity full stop, 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.040 and so it felt like a bit of a small 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.760 miracle they got that done, but they did. And what 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:36.440 that means though for institutional limited partners is with the 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:40.560 down market in public equities, you know, their entire book 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.360 is suddenly out of balance. They have target investment thresholds 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.080 of course for asset classes like venture capital, and suddenly 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.000 they found themselves overweight relative to equities. And furthermore, with 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:56.880 the liquidity events slowing down dramatically at this fifteen year EBB, 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:01.600 they suddenly were liquidity starved. And so the short way 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:07.600 to say it is that new allocators to managers in 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:12.440 venture capital and private equity more broadly slowed down pretty dramatically, 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.160 and so they had relationships and commitments existing, so they 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:17.839 had to re up with some of those. So those 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.880 are some of the direct impacts for private markets and 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.800 alternative assets and specifically private equity menor capital that we're 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:26.600 seeing so. 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.560 In private markets versus public markets. Broadly, public markets are 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.560 marked to market on a daily basis. Everybody knows what 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.239 the price of Tesla or Google or Facebook is today. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.560 Private markets aren't, right, And so I'm curious when you 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:44.039 said that they found themselves overweight compared to public equities 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.640 because the value of the public equities drew down, but 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.159 then their private equities didn't. So they didn't mark those 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.360 to market, they didn't draw, they didn't write those down. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.800 So do you think that's why they were so off sides, 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.920 because anyway, do you think that's why they're soft sides. 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:03.520 Great question, that's exactly right. We invest in early stage 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.960 venture capital, and in particular early stage versus growth or 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.960 late stage venture across the board. You can use you know, 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.640 black suals, option pricing models and things like that, but 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:19.200 for the most part, most venture investors, they simply carry 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:24.559 the asset on the books at the last priced venture round. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.200 And so what that means is if no new rounds 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.040 are happening, and they're not happening on a down round 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.800 in a lower valuation, they're just sitting there and they're 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.599 carrying it at this higher evaluation, even though the world 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.960 might have changed. There's no way to really price those 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:44.680 unless there's a lot, you know, a high volume of 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.160 secondaries on a late stage venture deal. And so you're 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.640 exactly right. The public we can mark to market with 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.400 public equities, and all the private stuff kind of sits 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.440 there because there's unknown it's an unknown as far as 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.280 what the valuations and what the asset should be carried out. 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:02.480 I've heard some speculation. 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.160 I think there's been some talks and public talk of 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.440 potentially having some of these private markets VCPE, metrocap or 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:15.160 private equity maybe remark their books, mark them down, and 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.680 some speculation of what that might look like in this 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.160 type of environment. Do you have any kind of speculation 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:23.039 or any kind of data of what you think might 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.040 actually happen if some of these private equity venture capital 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.840 companies were actually doing some of that and marking those 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:29.360 things down. 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.159 Well, the question is always a tricky one. It's it's 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.000 what price do you put on the companies. If there's 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.240 a markdown, that kind of implies that you've gotten a 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.880 reasonably sized data set of maybe secondary transactions from early 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.760 employees that traded, and you can back into what some 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.600 of the options are worth. The very big household brand 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.440 name VC firms tend to have a bit more of 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.479 a sophisticated approach to valuation, But it's still tricky because 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.119 what private market investors are willing to pay for some 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.960 thing is just fundamentally a different question than something that's 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.440 highly liquid and available to a global capital base. Right now, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.440 things are just really slowed in particular, you know, late 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:12.800 last year, the second half of last year, in the 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:17.480 first half of this year. Right now, in general, most 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:22.720 founders are working to grow revenues and grow into what 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.960 maybe the previous valuations were in some of their venture rounds, 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.720 so that they can prove that they're ready for a 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.760 new investment round whenever the larger investors are ready to 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:33.880 do some new venture investing. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.520 Yeah, it's sort of like if there's no activity, if 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.160 there's no deals being made, then there's no way to 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.600 understand what their value is. And the truth is, even 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.480 with public equities would be the same thing, because public equity, 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.560 sure they have some of them, a lot of them 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.280 actually have revenue and they have profits, and so then 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:50.480 you can kind of work out like some sort of 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.160 like a pe ratio, but what's that multiplier, and that 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.520 multiplier changes based off of the price of the stock, 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:57.400 and so we don't know that is until somebody buys it. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.000 And so it's almost sort of like what we see 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.960 happened in the housing market today, where most people think 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:04.920 their housing markets should be crashing, but it's holding on 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.280 pretty strong even in the face of almost eight percent 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.960 mortgage rates because there's just no activity. The people that 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:12.520 are stuck in those two and three percent orgags, they 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.640 ain't sell it, and so we're not seeing it and. 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:16.680 Sort of something like that you'd said. 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.800 You had said that the M and A activity mergers 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.560 and acquisitions in that private space had ebbed to a 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.120 new low. I think you said is that in twenty 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:28.640 twenty two. 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.000 So Q four and Q one Q four, twenty twenty 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.239 two Q one. This year it was about a fifteen 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:41.560 year ebb in the overall, you know, just transaction counts 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:47.080 in mergers and acquisitions, and since most you know, certainly 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.719 in venture sometimes companies get public, either via IPO or 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.280 direct listing, but most of the time they're acquired at 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.200 some point along through their growth trajectory. And these large 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.760 institutional investors that might put a few billion dollars into 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.080 a fund of funds that then allocates to managers. Since 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.920 the M and A has slowed, the managers don't get 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.840 the liquidity in their funds that doesn't roll up to 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.679 the funds of funds and subsequently to the pension funds, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.040 et cetera. Their liquidity has slowed down a lot. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:21.400 That makes sense seeing as twenty twenty two was the 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.120 worst year for financial markets, both stocks and bonds in 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.600 fifty years, So of course you start to see that 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.040 slow down. Now if you're just tuning in you're listening 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.040 to the Mark Moss Show. We're talking about the decentralized revolution. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.880 I'm sitting down with Christopher callicut the co founder managing 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.000 director of Trammel Venture Partners. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.560 I'm gonna take a very quick break. We'd be right back. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:43.080 Don't go away, all right, Welcome back. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.760 If youre just tune in, you're listening to the Mark 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.280 Moss Show. I'm sitting down with Christopher Callicutt. He is 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.600 the co founder managing director of Trammel Venture Partners, which 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.280 is a venture capital fund specifically in the bitcoin space. 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:55.320 And we were. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:59.280 Talking about, Christopher before the break about sort of like 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.559 this this glow macro picture that's sort of in the 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:06.520 driver's scene, and how has impacted private markets. I'm just curious, 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.120 you know, from your standpoint as a you know, venture 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.719 capital investor, in dealing with other investors who are trying 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.480 to allocate capital in this space, how do you think 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.319 about the overall macro picture, Because you know, when I 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.839 think about the macro picture, what's the FED going to 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:24.559 do with rates over the next six months? 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.240 Will there be a crash this year? 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.320 Things like that That sort of goes against what I 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.160 think about in private equity or specifically venture capital, because 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.960 venture capital, my money is locked up for seven years, 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.240 ten years. So do I really care about the macro 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:42.880 picture over the next six or twelve months when my 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.080 money is locked up for eight to ten years. 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.360 How do you think about those two things. 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.800 It's a great question, and it's an interesting one. You know, 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.680 in principle, the idea being that if you have this 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.920 long term view, this long term commitment to venture capital 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:05.480 as an asset class, these you know, fluctuations in you know, 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:09.280 the one, two, three year time frame have less impact 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.080 in practice, though, you know, I hear a lot of 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.680 chatter with other managers that have a broader we'll say, 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.680 venture capital mandate than we do. They're very much down 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.760 focused on the bitcoin stack exclusively, and you know, they 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.960 they have a lot of trepidation, even for large institutions 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.840 that feel like, okay, just take a pause. You know, 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.560 they feel become more comfortable with the pause. So even 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.440 though you should have that kind of disinterested Hey, the 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.720 conventional wisdom buy when there's blood in the streets, a 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.720 time like this year is necessarily a great time to 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.840 at least go out and see where how people are 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.160 feeling about pricing and maybe actually get to have a 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.720 little bit more ownership at the fun level for some 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.040 of these investments. I do know that there are managers 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.000 out there that have said that their LPs have just 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.920 felt a little overwhelmed by trying to process everything full stop. 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.640 So in practice sometimes it doesn't meet the academically agreed 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.400 on standard as far as like this long term view 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.160 for us, and I think one of the ways that 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.920 you Mark and TVP are very strongly aligned is we 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.680 see some fundamental flaws with the structure of the system, 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.800 and we know that in the end things are going 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.959 to be fundamentally different. We think that sound money is 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.439 one of the key components, and we think that market 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.960 view wise, bitcoin has already won the battle for the 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.000 Internet in the Internet age the base monetary layer, and 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.280 so we're preparing for that kind of long term view. 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:44.920 And one of the ways that we were actually sort 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:50.040 of managing against what we would see is a certain 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.400 type of risk where some of our investors might have trepidation, 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.880 they might be feeling the pain of public markets, and 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.600 what they might be seeing at this micro level is 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.120 by kind of really dialing in with family offices and 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:06.600 individual investors that we might have very different opinions on 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.040 a wide variety of subjects, but around this one unifying 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:15.280 idea of bitcoin being the Internet age's monetary standard, we're 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.440 aligned on that, and so investing in these companies that 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:23.080 help realize this transformation to a new sound monetary order, 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.679 we wanted to grow purposefully, and so we've we've attracted 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.200 like a great group of investors around us that are 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.240 at least aligned on that sort of principle. That's not 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.560 to say that we're not subject to some of the 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.360 stresses of looking at the macro micro picture though. 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.320 So then I mean, it's something that you're certainly paying 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.199 attention to, but it's not really something that's driving your decisions. 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.079 Would you say, definitely not, you know, I think as 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.520 far on the on the decision driving question, you know, 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.560 I think this year has been an interesting year for 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.120 you know, bear market and bear market year fallout reasons, 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.520 I would say, but in a broader sense, it's important 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.800 for us to just we can't be toned after what's 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:10.760 happening in public markets and UH and the broader alternative 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.760 asset landscape, because you know, as we grow as a firm, 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.920 net new investors for us will come from the institutional base. 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.520 So we have to be you know, keenly aware for 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.280 the the challenges they're facing and what their their market 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.560 impacts are, what impacts are happening to them and their 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:28.560 portfolio overall. 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:29.960 Yeah. 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.680 Uh, some of the problems have have really come because 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:37.200 of socio economic paradigms I think that we live in today, 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.400 such as just short term thinking, and so you have 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:45.600 this bigger institutional involvement today, but institutions are constantly being 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.000 judged by their investors on a marke to market basis, 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.920 and so you know, I know, other fund managers and 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.960 other and other markets, public markets, and in order to 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.960 make the big returns, they need time, but their investors 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.960 are judging them on a month basis, and they're like, 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.240 how can I make these big moves to get these 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.760 big returns when you're constantly comparing my returns on a 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.560 monthly basis, And so it starts to cause these types 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.240 of problems. And I think about you know, Warren Buffett 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.360 his partner Charlie Munger says, the big money's not made 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.520 in the buying and the selling, It's made in the waiting. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.040 So one waiting for the right opportunity, but also two 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.960 waiting for that opportunity to actually take time to develop. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.680 Warren Buffett has this thing he called twenty punches or whatever. 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.360 If any new investor would come in knowing they had 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.600 twenty moves twenty punches their whole career that outperform, and 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.960 that's because they're not overtrading. And Warren Buffett said, he said, 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:39.440 I don't buy stocks. I buy companies. They just happen 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:43.000 to be publicly traded. And what I think he means 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.120 by that, or what I take from that, is he 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.080 buys a company, so I'm gonna buy. He likes a 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.320 capital efficient business is like a Hershey or Coca Cola. 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.000 Do you think people still buy soda in the future? 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:54.200 Yes or no? 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.000 Great, well, then coke should be a good long term investment. 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:59.640 You know, Tesla. Do you think people will buy more 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.960 ev vehicles in the future or less? Great than I 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:03.840 should buy Tesla and set up for the long term. 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.000 Or do I think for bitcoin? Do I think governments 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.600 will print more money in the future or less? Will 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.720 governments take more of our freedoms or give us more 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:12.680 freedoms back in the future? 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:13.120 Right? And so? 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.440 But that's that long term view, right, And I think 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.320 if people would approach it like that, everything would change, 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.200 would go back to the warm buffett you know, twenty 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.560 punch kind of kind of mandate. How do you think 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:32.119 about investors and allocating towards venture capital from best practices 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.600 or from what you've seen it? Should it only be 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.560 done by people that are super rich? Should it only 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.120 be done with a tiny minuscule piece of portfolio if 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:41.000 you love gambling? 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.320 Or how do you think about that for most people? 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.760 For most people, the average person, I would say venture 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.640 capitals not necessarily a fit for them. 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.200 Well, when you say most people, I would imagine you 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.200 probably break that down by portfolio size. So if you 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.120 have a five figure portfolio, or even a six figure portfolio, 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.360 maybe not, but once you get over seven maybe something 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.359 you consider Or how do you say for most people? 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.040 Is that based off portfolio size or just for mentality? 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.040 Yeah, I mean from a regulatory perspective, you know, it's 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:14.160 it's one of these clothes to average folks kind of things. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:15.399 So you got you've got to be at least a 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:21.200 credited not a qualified purchaser to participate. That's a whole, 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.359 uh wormhole. We can discuss uh at some point on 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.240 on the regulatory questions there and fairness of it, but 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.320 that is the regime that as it stands, and so 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.400 for people that they're a potential investor they're considering it, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.680 you have to think about all sorts of questions. Are 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.159 you is it a sector play, is it like you 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.040 were describing, is it you know, electric vehicles for example, 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.680 or or space exploration, or you you have a viewle 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.040 on a thesis of bitcoin or or some you know, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.959 life sciences and explosion in life sciences. So then you've 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.920 got to go from from that that thesis and then 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.280 try to identify and get access to the best managers available. 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.879 And so I'm gonna I'm gonna pause you on that 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:06.960 the best managers available. We're gonna come back to that. 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:08.680 If you're just tune in you're listening to the Mark 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.080 Moss Show. I'm sitting down with Christopher Callicutt. He is 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.040 the co founder and managing director of Trammel Venture Partners, 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:18.639 which is a bitcoin venture capital fund focused on that specifically. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:20.560 We've got to take a very quick break, but we're 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.359 going to come back and finish that thought and we're 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.720 going to dive down into some specifics, so don't go away. 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:25.600 We'll be right back. 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:28.560 All right, Welcome back. If you're just tune in you're 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.760 listening to the Mark Moss Show. I'm sitting down. 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:31.680 With Christopher Callicutt. 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.840 He is the co founder and of Trammel Venture Partners, 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.000 managing director of Trambo Venture Partners, a bitcoin venture capital fund. 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.480 And before the break we had to kind of cut 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.680 you off, but you were talking about, you know, finding 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.280 your thesis and then trying to find the best allocators 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:48.520 in that thesis. 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:49.760 I think is kind of what you were saying. 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:52.760 Yeah, that's right. You know, So if you're your your 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.840 thesis first and then finding the best managers you can 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.119 get access to in a fund, you know, I think 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.520 you want them to versification in in that thesis because 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.280 in venture this, you know, individually these investments are very 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:12.159 very high risk. Typically, you know, a couple of investments 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:16.200 within a portfolio return the entire fund multiple times over 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.440 in successful venture capital funds. And so you've got to 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.160 think in terms of a whole holistic picture of your 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.399 overall portfolio and what that should comprise, if it should 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.160 comprise any of it within it, So you know it's 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:34.240 it's a it's a question for for sizing and a 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:34.960 whole lot of thought. 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:39.159 Actually, yeah, you know, one thing that I've been starting 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.800 to kind of change some of my narrative around is 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.080 been you know, I've talked a lot about parallel markets 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.120 and the need for these things and really like maybe 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:48.919 putting your money where your mouth is or building the 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:50.919 world that you want. And you look at like the 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.000 founding fathers of the United States, and you know, unfortunately 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:55.840 for the for those that you know signed the Declaration 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.080 of Independence, for example, most of them ended up dead. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.360 It wasn't good for the revolutionaries, but they sacrifice their 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.520 life for future generations. And today the world is also 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.640 going in a scary place and we need some revolutionaries 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.120 to take some action. And fortunately for us, we don't 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.600 have to go risk our lives like they did. But 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:16.880 maybe we need to make some sacrifices with our time 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.600 or our capital, and maybe we should use our time 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.240 or our capital to help build this new world, build 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.800 this ecosystem they want. So unlike the Founding Fathers, we 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:27.760 don't have to go risk our lives, but maybe we 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.760 do need to risk some of our time or risk 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:31.240 some of our money. And so maybe that's just a 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.359 different way to kind of start to think about it. 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.600 Because part as part of this talk that I'm gonna 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:38.960 be giving next week here, it'll be on my main 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:40.720 YouTube channel, So shout out. If you're not following me 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:42.720 on YouTube, just search Mark Moss on there. I'll break 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:46.199 this down. But how bitcoin isn't just a new technology, 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.920 it's a technological revolution, and there's a big difference between 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.720 those two. A technological revolution is a cluster of new 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:57.439 technologies that basically change all of society as we know it. 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:00.679 And what happens is as that is, it's not just 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:05.040 new technology. It creates thousands or maybe even millions of 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:10.320 investment opportunities in that ecosystem. So, for example, oil was 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.560