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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss Show,

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Speaker 1: where we always talk about the decentralized revolution, talking about

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Speaker 1: the way the world is changing, and of course we

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Speaker 1: always look at it through the lens of politics, finance,

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Speaker 1: and technology technologies. The technology always the piece that changes

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Speaker 1: the world as we know, and so we like to

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Speaker 1: dig into that and I try to bring to you

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Speaker 1: some thought provoking pieces to help you think about the

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Speaker 1: world differently, some latest breaking news headlines, and some interesting

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Speaker 1: guests that you don't have to just listen to me

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Speaker 1: all the time. And that's what we have for you today.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Christopher Calcott. He is the co

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Speaker 1: founder and managing director at Trammel Venture Partners TVP, based

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Speaker 1: out of Austin, Texas, and he is an investor.

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Speaker 2: Of a fund. We're going to dig into that.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about what's going on with

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Speaker 1: the overall macro investing space, the environment for investing and

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Speaker 1: not just public equities, but into private equity, mergers, acquisitions,

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Speaker 1: venture capital, things like that.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the state.

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Speaker 1: Of bitcoin and crypto, bitcoin investor, venture capital, investing, some deals,

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Speaker 1: some things that are looking at some of the most

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Speaker 1: interesting things and then we'll start to maybe have fun.

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Speaker 2: Speculate about where this future goes.

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Speaker 1: So stick around for this whole conversation. Christopher, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me today.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Mark's good to see you again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great scene.

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Speaker 1: It is always a pleasure talking to you. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is a topic that I'm super interested in always.

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Speaker 1: I'm always paying attention to this as as someone who

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Speaker 1: invests through the bitcoin ecosystem buying bitcoin, yes, but through

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Speaker 1: the ecosystem as well. And it's also something that's been

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Speaker 1: kind of top of mind as I'm working through this presentation.

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Speaker 1: I'm about to go give it a bit block boom.

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Speaker 1: But let's talk about this from a from a top

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Speaker 1: down approach, and so, how do you see the macro

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Speaker 1: picture overall affecting you know, the public markets, but then

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Speaker 1: the relationship to more institutional investor investing.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question and a really interesting moment in history,

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Speaker 3: I would say, given how things have been folded back

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Speaker 3: to twenty nineteen and certainly twenty twenty moving forward through COVID. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: in public markets there was a big boom cycle last year,

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Speaker 3: though we've seen really large retracements bottom is probably put in.

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Speaker 3: It looks like inequities markets this year a bit of

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Speaker 3: a rebound. But what's happened in the interim is that

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Speaker 3: whenever there's some fear in the market, typically the M

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Speaker 3: and A activity drives up, and large institutional allocators, which

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Speaker 3: we can talk about. I think it's interesting with Bitcoin native,

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Speaker 3: where we're focused day to day, adventure capital have not,

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Speaker 3: for the most part, really gotten off zero, and what

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Speaker 3: we're thinking about now is when this actually picks back up.

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Speaker 3: We had the great fortune in our first fund back

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Speaker 3: in Q four, we had a company that was an

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Speaker 3: apply to I company outside of the bitcoin native space

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Speaker 3: that actually completed an acquisition. I was super excited and

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Speaker 3: happy for the founders and their families. It was their

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Speaker 3: first company that they founded. But interestingly, they actually got

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Speaker 3: that transaction closed in Q four. Q four of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two and Q one this year were about a

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Speaker 3: fifteen year EBB in the M and A activity full stop,

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Speaker 3: and so it felt like a bit of a small

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Speaker 3: miracle they got that done, but they did. And what

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Speaker 3: that means though for institutional limited partners is with the

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Speaker 3: down market in public equities, you know, their entire book

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Speaker 3: is suddenly out of balance. They have target investment thresholds

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Speaker 3: of course for asset classes like venture capital, and suddenly

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Speaker 3: they found themselves overweight relative to equities. And furthermore, with

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Speaker 3: the liquidity events slowing down dramatically at this fifteen year EBB,

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Speaker 3: they suddenly were liquidity starved. And so the short way

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Speaker 3: to say it is that new allocators to managers in

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Speaker 3: venture capital and private equity more broadly slowed down pretty dramatically,

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Speaker 3: and so they had relationships and commitments existing, so they

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Speaker 3: had to re up with some of those. So those

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Speaker 3: are some of the direct impacts for private markets and

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Speaker 3: alternative assets and specifically private equity menor capital that we're

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Speaker 3: seeing so.

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Speaker 1: In private markets versus public markets. Broadly, public markets are

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Speaker 1: marked to market on a daily basis. Everybody knows what

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Speaker 1: the price of Tesla or Google or Facebook is today.

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Speaker 1: Private markets aren't, right, And so I'm curious when you

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Speaker 1: said that they found themselves overweight compared to public equities

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Speaker 1: because the value of the public equities drew down, but

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Speaker 1: then their private equities didn't. So they didn't mark those

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Speaker 1: to market, they didn't draw, they didn't write those down.

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Speaker 1: So do you think that's why they were so off sides,

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Speaker 1: because anyway, do you think that's why they're soft sides.

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Speaker 3: Great question, that's exactly right. We invest in early stage

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Speaker 3: venture capital, and in particular early stage versus growth or

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Speaker 3: late stage venture across the board. You can use you know,

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Speaker 3: black suals, option pricing models and things like that, but

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Speaker 3: for the most part, most venture investors, they simply carry

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Speaker 3: the asset on the books at the last priced venture round.

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Speaker 3: And so what that means is if no new rounds

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Speaker 3: are happening, and they're not happening on a down round

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Speaker 3: in a lower valuation, they're just sitting there and they're

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Speaker 3: carrying it at this higher evaluation, even though the world

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Speaker 3: might have changed. There's no way to really price those

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Speaker 3: unless there's a lot, you know, a high volume of

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Speaker 3: secondaries on a late stage venture deal. And so you're

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Speaker 3: exactly right. The public we can mark to market with

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Speaker 3: public equities, and all the private stuff kind of sits

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Speaker 3: there because there's unknown it's an unknown as far as

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Speaker 3: what the valuations and what the asset should be carried out.

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Speaker 2: I've heard some speculation.

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Speaker 1: I think there's been some talks and public talk of

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Speaker 1: potentially having some of these private markets VCPE, metrocap or

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Speaker 1: private equity maybe remark their books, mark them down, and

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Speaker 1: some speculation of what that might look like in this

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Speaker 1: type of environment. Do you have any kind of speculation

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Speaker 1: or any kind of data of what you think might

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Speaker 1: actually happen if some of these private equity venture capital

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Speaker 1: companies were actually doing some of that and marking those

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Speaker 1: things down.

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Speaker 3: Well, the question is always a tricky one. It's it's

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Speaker 3: what price do you put on the companies. If there's

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Speaker 3: a markdown, that kind of implies that you've gotten a

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Speaker 3: reasonably sized data set of maybe secondary transactions from early

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Speaker 3: employees that traded, and you can back into what some

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Speaker 3: of the options are worth. The very big household brand

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Speaker 3: name VC firms tend to have a bit more of

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Speaker 3: a sophisticated approach to valuation, But it's still tricky because

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Speaker 3: what private market investors are willing to pay for some

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Speaker 3: thing is just fundamentally a different question than something that's

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Speaker 3: highly liquid and available to a global capital base. Right now,

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Speaker 3: things are just really slowed in particular, you know, late

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Speaker 3: last year, the second half of last year, in the

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Speaker 3: first half of this year. Right now, in general, most

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Speaker 3: founders are working to grow revenues and grow into what

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Speaker 3: maybe the previous valuations were in some of their venture rounds,

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Speaker 3: so that they can prove that they're ready for a

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Speaker 3: new investment round whenever the larger investors are ready to

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Speaker 3: do some new venture investing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of like if there's no activity, if

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Speaker 1: there's no deals being made, then there's no way to

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Speaker 1: understand what their value is. And the truth is, even

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Speaker 1: with public equities would be the same thing, because public equity,

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Speaker 1: sure they have some of them, a lot of them

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Speaker 1: actually have revenue and they have profits, and so then

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Speaker 1: you can kind of work out like some sort of

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Speaker 1: like a pe ratio, but what's that multiplier, and that

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Speaker 1: multiplier changes based off of the price of the stock,

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Speaker 1: and so we don't know that is until somebody buys it.

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Speaker 1: And so it's almost sort of like what we see

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Speaker 1: happened in the housing market today, where most people think

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Speaker 1: their housing markets should be crashing, but it's holding on

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Speaker 1: pretty strong even in the face of almost eight percent

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Speaker 1: mortgage rates because there's just no activity. The people that

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Speaker 1: are stuck in those two and three percent orgags, they

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Speaker 1: ain't sell it, and so we're not seeing it and.

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Speaker 2: Sort of something like that you'd said.

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Speaker 1: You had said that the M and A activity mergers

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Speaker 1: and acquisitions in that private space had ebbed to a

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Speaker 1: new low. I think you said is that in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two.

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Speaker 3: So Q four and Q one Q four, twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: two Q one. This year it was about a fifteen

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Speaker 3: year ebb in the overall, you know, just transaction counts

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Speaker 3: in mergers and acquisitions, and since most you know, certainly

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Speaker 3: in venture sometimes companies get public, either via IPO or

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Speaker 3: direct listing, but most of the time they're acquired at

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Speaker 3: some point along through their growth trajectory. And these large

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Speaker 3: institutional investors that might put a few billion dollars into

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Speaker 3: a fund of funds that then allocates to managers. Since

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Speaker 3: the M and A has slowed, the managers don't get

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Speaker 3: the liquidity in their funds that doesn't roll up to

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Speaker 3: the funds of funds and subsequently to the pension funds,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. Their liquidity has slowed down a lot.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense seeing as twenty twenty two was the

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Speaker 1: worst year for financial markets, both stocks and bonds in

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Speaker 1: fifty years, So of course you start to see that

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Speaker 1: slow down. Now if you're just tuning in you're listening

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Speaker 1: to the Mark Moss Show. We're talking about the decentralized revolution.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Christopher callicut the co founder managing

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Speaker 1: director of Trammel Venture Partners.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna take a very quick break. We'd be right back.

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Speaker 2: Don't go away, all right, Welcome back.

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Speaker 1: If youre just tune in, you're listening to the Mark

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Speaker 1: Moss Show. I'm sitting down with Christopher Callicutt. He is

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Speaker 1: the co founder managing director of Trammel Venture Partners, which

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Speaker 1: is a venture capital fund specifically in the bitcoin space.

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Speaker 2: And we were.

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Speaker 1: Talking about, Christopher before the break about sort of like

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Speaker 1: this this glow macro picture that's sort of in the

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Speaker 1: driver's scene, and how has impacted private markets. I'm just curious,

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Speaker 1: you know, from your standpoint as a you know, venture

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Speaker 1: capital investor, in dealing with other investors who are trying

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Speaker 1: to allocate capital in this space, how do you think

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Speaker 1: about the overall macro picture, Because you know, when I

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Speaker 1: think about the macro picture, what's the FED going to

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Speaker 1: do with rates over the next six months?

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Speaker 2: Will there be a crash this year?

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Speaker 1: Things like that That sort of goes against what I

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Speaker 1: think about in private equity or specifically venture capital, because

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Speaker 1: venture capital, my money is locked up for seven years,

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Speaker 1: ten years. So do I really care about the macro

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Speaker 1: picture over the next six or twelve months when my

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Speaker 1: money is locked up for eight to ten years.

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Speaker 2: How do you think about those two things.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question, and it's an interesting one. You know,

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Speaker 3: in principle, the idea being that if you have this

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Speaker 3: long term view, this long term commitment to venture capital

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Speaker 3: as an asset class, these you know, fluctuations in you know,

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Speaker 3: the one, two, three year time frame have less impact

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Speaker 3: in practice, though, you know, I hear a lot of

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Speaker 3: chatter with other managers that have a broader we'll say,

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Speaker 3: venture capital mandate than we do. They're very much down

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Speaker 3: focused on the bitcoin stack exclusively, and you know, they

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Speaker 3: they have a lot of trepidation, even for large institutions

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Speaker 3: that feel like, okay, just take a pause. You know,

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Speaker 3: they feel become more comfortable with the pause. So even

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Speaker 3: though you should have that kind of disinterested Hey, the

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Speaker 3: conventional wisdom buy when there's blood in the streets, a

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Speaker 3: time like this year is necessarily a great time to

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Speaker 3: at least go out and see where how people are

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Speaker 3: feeling about pricing and maybe actually get to have a

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Speaker 3: little bit more ownership at the fun level for some

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Speaker 3: of these investments. I do know that there are managers

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Speaker 3: out there that have said that their LPs have just

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Speaker 3: felt a little overwhelmed by trying to process everything full stop.

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Speaker 3: So in practice sometimes it doesn't meet the academically agreed

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Speaker 3: on standard as far as like this long term view

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Speaker 3: for us, and I think one of the ways that

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Speaker 3: you Mark and TVP are very strongly aligned is we

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Speaker 3: see some fundamental flaws with the structure of the system,

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Speaker 3: and we know that in the end things are going

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Speaker 3: to be fundamentally different. We think that sound money is

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Speaker 3: one of the key components, and we think that market

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Speaker 3: view wise, bitcoin has already won the battle for the

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Speaker 3: Internet in the Internet age the base monetary layer, and

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Speaker 3: so we're preparing for that kind of long term view.

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Speaker 3: And one of the ways that we were actually sort

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Speaker 3: of managing against what we would see is a certain

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Speaker 3: type of risk where some of our investors might have trepidation,

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Speaker 3: they might be feeling the pain of public markets, and

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Speaker 3: what they might be seeing at this micro level is

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Speaker 3: by kind of really dialing in with family offices and

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Speaker 3: individual investors that we might have very different opinions on

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Speaker 3: a wide variety of subjects, but around this one unifying

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Speaker 3: idea of bitcoin being the Internet age's monetary standard, we're

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Speaker 3: aligned on that, and so investing in these companies that

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Speaker 3: help realize this transformation to a new sound monetary order,

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Speaker 3: we wanted to grow purposefully, and so we've we've attracted

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Speaker 3: like a great group of investors around us that are

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Speaker 3: at least aligned on that sort of principle. That's not

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Speaker 3: to say that we're not subject to some of the

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Speaker 3: stresses of looking at the macro micro picture though.

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Speaker 1: So then I mean, it's something that you're certainly paying

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Speaker 1: attention to, but it's not really something that's driving your decisions.

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Speaker 3: Would you say, definitely not, you know, I think as

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Speaker 3: far on the on the decision driving question, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think this year has been an interesting year for

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Speaker 3: you know, bear market and bear market year fallout reasons,

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Speaker 3: I would say, but in a broader sense, it's important

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Speaker 3: for us to just we can't be toned after what's

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Speaker 3: happening in public markets and UH and the broader alternative

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Speaker 3: asset landscape, because you know, as we grow as a firm,

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Speaker 3: net new investors for us will come from the institutional base.

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Speaker 3: So we have to be you know, keenly aware for

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Speaker 3: the the challenges they're facing and what their their market

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Speaker 3: impacts are, what impacts are happening to them and their

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Speaker 3: portfolio overall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh, some of the problems have have really come because

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Speaker 1: of socio economic paradigms I think that we live in today,

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Speaker 1: such as just short term thinking, and so you have

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Speaker 1: this bigger institutional involvement today, but institutions are constantly being

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Speaker 1: judged by their investors on a marke to market basis,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, I know, other fund managers and

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Speaker 1: other and other markets, public markets, and in order to

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Speaker 1: make the big returns, they need time, but their investors

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Speaker 1: are judging them on a month basis, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: how can I make these big moves to get these

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Speaker 1: big returns when you're constantly comparing my returns on a

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Speaker 1: monthly basis, And so it starts to cause these types

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Speaker 1: of problems. And I think about you know, Warren Buffett

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Speaker 1: his partner Charlie Munger says, the big money's not made

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Speaker 1: in the buying and the selling, It's made in the waiting.

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Speaker 1: So one waiting for the right opportunity, but also two

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Speaker 1: waiting for that opportunity to actually take time to develop.

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Speaker 1: Warren Buffett has this thing he called twenty punches or whatever.

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Speaker 1: If any new investor would come in knowing they had

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Speaker 1: twenty moves twenty punches their whole career that outperform, and

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Speaker 1: that's because they're not overtrading. And Warren Buffett said, he said,

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Speaker 1: I don't buy stocks. I buy companies. They just happen

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Speaker 1: to be publicly traded. And what I think he means

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Speaker 1: by that, or what I take from that, is he

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Speaker 1: buys a company, so I'm gonna buy. He likes a

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Speaker 1: capital efficient business is like a Hershey or Coca Cola.

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Speaker 1: Do you think people still buy soda in the future?

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Speaker 2: Yes or no?

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Speaker 1: Great, well, then coke should be a good long term investment.

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Speaker 1: You know, Tesla. Do you think people will buy more

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Speaker 1: ev vehicles in the future or less? Great than I

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Speaker 1: should buy Tesla and set up for the long term.

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Speaker 1: Or do I think for bitcoin? Do I think governments

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Speaker 1: will print more money in the future or less? Will

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Speaker 1: governments take more of our freedoms or give us more

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Speaker 1: freedoms back in the future?

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Speaker 2: Right? And so?

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Speaker 1: But that's that long term view, right, And I think

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Speaker 1: if people would approach it like that, everything would change,

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Speaker 1: would go back to the warm buffett you know, twenty

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Speaker 1: punch kind of kind of mandate. How do you think

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Speaker 1: about investors and allocating towards venture capital from best practices

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Speaker 1: or from what you've seen it? Should it only be

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Speaker 1: done by people that are super rich? Should it only

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Speaker 1: be done with a tiny minuscule piece of portfolio if

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Speaker 1: you love gambling?

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Speaker 2: Or how do you think about that for most people?

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Speaker 3: For most people, the average person, I would say venture

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Speaker 3: capitals not necessarily a fit for them.

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Speaker 1: Well, when you say most people, I would imagine you

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Speaker 1: probably break that down by portfolio size. So if you

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Speaker 1: have a five figure portfolio, or even a six figure portfolio,

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Speaker 1: maybe not, but once you get over seven maybe something

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Speaker 1: you consider Or how do you say for most people?

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Speaker 1: Is that based off portfolio size or just for mentality?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean from a regulatory perspective, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: it's one of these clothes to average folks kind of things.

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Speaker 3: So you got you've got to be at least a

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Speaker 3: credited not a qualified purchaser to participate. That's a whole,

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Speaker 3: uh wormhole. We can discuss uh at some point on

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Speaker 3: on the regulatory questions there and fairness of it, but

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Speaker 3: that is the regime that as it stands, and so

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Speaker 3: for people that they're a potential investor they're considering it,

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Speaker 3: you have to think about all sorts of questions. Are

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Speaker 3: you is it a sector play, is it like you

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Speaker 3: were describing, is it you know, electric vehicles for example,

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Speaker 3: or or space exploration, or you you have a viewle

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Speaker 3: on a thesis of bitcoin or or some you know,

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Speaker 3: life sciences and explosion in life sciences. So then you've

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Speaker 3: got to go from from that that thesis and then

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Speaker 3: try to identify and get access to the best managers available.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm gonna I'm gonna pause you on that

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Speaker 1: the best managers available. We're gonna come back to that.

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Speaker 1: If you're just tune in you're listening to the Mark

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Speaker 1: Moss Show. I'm sitting down with Christopher Callicutt. He is

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Speaker 1: the co founder and managing director of Trammel Venture Partners,

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Speaker 1: which is a bitcoin venture capital fund focused on that specifically.

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Speaker 1: We've got to take a very quick break, but we're

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Speaker 1: going to come back and finish that thought and we're

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Speaker 1: going to dive down into some specifics, so don't go away.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: All right, Welcome back. If you're just tune in you're

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Speaker 1: listening to the Mark Moss Show. I'm sitting down.

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Speaker 2: With Christopher Callicutt.

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Speaker 1: He is the co founder and of Trammel Venture Partners,

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Speaker 1: managing director of Trambo Venture Partners, a bitcoin venture capital fund.

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Speaker 1: And before the break we had to kind of cut

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Speaker 1: you off, but you were talking about, you know, finding

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Speaker 1: your thesis and then trying to find the best allocators

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Speaker 1: in that thesis.

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Speaker 2: I think is kind of what you were saying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. You know, So if you're your your

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Speaker 3: thesis first and then finding the best managers you can

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Speaker 3: get access to in a fund, you know, I think

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Speaker 3: you want them to versification in in that thesis because

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Speaker 3: in venture this, you know, individually these investments are very

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Speaker 3: very high risk. Typically, you know, a couple of investments

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Speaker 3: within a portfolio return the entire fund multiple times over

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Speaker 3: in successful venture capital funds. And so you've got to

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Speaker 3: think in terms of a whole holistic picture of your

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Speaker 3: overall portfolio and what that should comprise, if it should

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Speaker 3: comprise any of it within it, So you know it's

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Speaker 3: it's a it's a question for for sizing and a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of thought.

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Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, you know, one thing that I've been starting

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Speaker 1: to kind of change some of my narrative around is

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Speaker 1: been you know, I've talked a lot about parallel markets

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Speaker 1: and the need for these things and really like maybe

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Speaker 1: putting your money where your mouth is or building the

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Speaker 1: world that you want. And you look at like the

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Speaker 1: founding fathers of the United States, and you know, unfortunately

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Speaker 1: for the for those that you know signed the Declaration

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Speaker 1: of Independence, for example, most of them ended up dead.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't good for the revolutionaries, but they sacrifice their

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Speaker 1: life for future generations. And today the world is also

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Speaker 1: going in a scary place and we need some revolutionaries

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Speaker 1: to take some action. And fortunately for us, we don't

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Speaker 1: have to go risk our lives like they did. But

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Speaker 1: maybe we need to make some sacrifices with our time

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Speaker 1: or our capital, and maybe we should use our time

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Speaker 1: or our capital to help build this new world, build

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Speaker 1: this ecosystem they want. So unlike the Founding Fathers, we

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Speaker 1: don't have to go risk our lives, but maybe we

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Speaker 1: do need to risk some of our time or risk

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Speaker 1: some of our money. And so maybe that's just a

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Speaker 1: different way to kind of start to think about it.

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Speaker 1: Because part as part of this talk that I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: be giving next week here, it'll be on my main

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Speaker 1: YouTube channel, So shout out. If you're not following me

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, just search Mark Moss on there. I'll break

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Speaker 1: this down. But how bitcoin isn't just a new technology,

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Speaker 1: it's a technological revolution, and there's a big difference between

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Speaker 1: those two. A technological revolution is a cluster of new

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Speaker 1: technologies that basically change all of society as we know it.

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Speaker 1: And what happens is as that is, it's not just

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Speaker 1: new technology. It creates thousands or maybe even millions of

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Speaker 1: investment opportunities in that ecosystem. So, for example, oil was

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Speaker 1: a new technology that also came out at the same

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Speaker 1: time as the automobile, and those two together were technologies

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Speaker 1: on their own, but they created roads we need now

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Speaker 1: because we have oil and cars, we need roads to

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Speaker 1: drive them on.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: To get roads, I might need a design a caterpillar

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Speaker 1: tractor to plow the road, and I might need to

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Speaker 1: come up with a new type of asphalt and like.

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Speaker 1: So there's all these downstream effects, and in bitcoin we're

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Speaker 1: already starting to see that, right, So, like in bitcoin mining,

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Speaker 1: for example, they're pioneering all new types of energy plays

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Speaker 1: and all new types of switches and managers, and they're

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Speaker 1: building their own equipment and racks and cooling technologies, and

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Speaker 1: like there's thousands of little downstream rabbit holes that go

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Speaker 1: into that you can play into. And so I guess

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Speaker 1: as someone who wants to buy bitcoin and whole bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: I also want to think about developing that ecosystem and

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Speaker 1: these are some play So as a venture capital fund,

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Speaker 1: are these things that you kind of think about, like

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Speaker 1: how what are these kind of offshoots of technology that

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Speaker 1: we think could really take off, and then we want

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Speaker 1: to allocate and help those build.

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Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right. I like the energy the

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Speaker 3: energy example, by the emergence of you know, reasonably priced

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Speaker 3: automobiles and the oil industry. Bigcoin very similarly is just

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Speaker 3: you know, intrinsically related to energy, and so managing some

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Speaker 3: of the frictions that are inherent to the energy market,

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Speaker 3: for example, is actually investable landscape for what we do

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Speaker 3: in the bitcoin native ecosystem. For example, one of our

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Speaker 3: companies is playing against the thesis we've had for a

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Speaker 3: very long time that pricing oil or any other kind

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Speaker 3: of energy in dollars is a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: strange long term bedfellow in the Internet age, where we're

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Speaker 3: used to being able to receive something instantaneously. In fact,

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Speaker 3: energy itself, electricity specifically, it's very weird in one unique

437
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 3: way we produce it and consume it simultaneously. Well, wouldn't

438
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 3: it be nice if we had a way to do

439
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 3: something that's inherent to energy market, which is to do

440
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 3: business with another company, As if I own a large

441
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 3: energy producing asset and someone wants to buy energy from me,

442
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 3: I have to know a lot about their business and

443
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 3: their ability to pay, because there's you know, at least thirty,

444
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 3: maybe sixty or niney day settlement time, and in the

445
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 3: meantime they could have run up a bill of millions

446
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 3: of dollars. So energy money bitcoin in the middle of that,

447
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 3: and being able to stream small fractions of a bitcoin

448
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 3: nearly real time, so that there's final settlement with this

449
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: money that has inherent property values built in when it's yours,

450
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 3: it's not an ioe you to money, or it's not

451
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 3: ach where there's a clawback of ninety day, right you

452
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 3: have it you have possession of that money. And so

453
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 3: this one company called Sonoda is working against this thesis

454
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 3: that over the long term energy it makes sense, it's

455
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,719
Speaker 3: intuitive almost that it should be priced in a money

456
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 3: that can be fully final and settled in real time

457
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 3: as someone consumes that product that's produced at the same

458
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 3: time it's consumed, which is an interesting kind of place.

459
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 3: So I think, I think I love the energy analogy

460
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 3: there actually, and.

461
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,239
Speaker 1: When you think about that, so basically what I what

462
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: I'm hearing when I when you when I'm listening to

463
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: that is that obviously technology has changed, and what's happened

464
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 1: is it's changed our transaction times. So pre Internet or

465
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: you know, we go back to the early gold days,

466
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: I would have to travel by long distance on a

467
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: horse or whatever to you to transact. I would give

468
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: you the gold, you'd give me the supplies, and there

469
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: would be like this handoff.

470
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: Right.

471
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: Well, what happened is with the Internet specifically, transaction times

472
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: got instantaneous. I can go right onto Amazon as I'm

473
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: talking to you, and I could just buy something and

474
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: have it delivered to my office by the end of

475
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 1: the day. But the settlement time hasn't kept up, so

476
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: it's going to take Amazon five days to get that money,

477
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: and then to the point you made, I could claw

478
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: that back up to ninety days later. So now the

479
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: transaction time has sped up, but the settlement hasn't come

480
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: anywhere close to keeping up. And so now bitcoin gives

481
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: us a way to sync that back up, instantaneous transaction

482
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: and instantaneous settlement at the same time. To the example

483
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 1: you gave in the energy space, that's a great example,

484
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: but there's a million use cases for something like that

485
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: right in every type of industry. I was talking with

486
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: Gary Cardon, Grant Cardon's twin brother, and he comes from

487
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: the merchant card space, and I don't want to mischaracterize

488
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: exactly what he said, but roughly he helps businesses that

489
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: do large scale, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars

490
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: of credit card transactions and they lose, you know whatever,

491
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: billions of dollars on chargebacks. And I used to sell

492
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: e commerce way back, and we would sell a product,

493
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: a physical product I might have a thirty percent margin on.

494
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: I would deliver to someone's house and they would just

495
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: charge it back on their credit card and there was

496
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: no recourse for me. And I was only making a

497
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,719
Speaker 1: thirty percent margin, so now way behind on that. So anyway,

498
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: these companies are losing billions of dollars on chargebacks and

499
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: bitcoin can fix that instantaneous settlement and to your point,

500
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: final settlement. So yeah, some really interesting things.

501
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: Extremely low cost. It is important to you know, it's

502
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 3: fractions of a scent to move real monetary value. And

503
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 3: what we're talking about here, actually, if I might just

504
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 3: to add one step further, is what we're describing here.

505
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 3: I think was the point you were trying to make

506
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 3: or we're about to make that this actually reflects a

507
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: generalizable problem that we're actually seeing in multiple massive industries,

508
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: so not only energy, but similarly in total communications. It's

509
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 3: the exact same problem. The generalizable problem is that they're

510
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: all carrying a big risk book, which is an impediment

511
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 3: to doing new business, generating new revenues, and also to

512
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: innovation because it's very very risky for some scrappy telecom

513
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 3: startup to for a large player to open up the

514
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: ability for them to run up very large bills and

515
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: then you know, be out of business and that sort

516
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 3: of thing. So this actually one of the big long

517
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 3: term or midterm or long term unlocks is it opens

518
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: up all kinds of areas for innovation, you know, kind

519
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 3: of like linking this back to your original example. You know,

520
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 3: we had to run you know, telephone polls to larger places.

521
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 3: The oil industry, we had to have the roads and

522
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: and suddenly there were all these second and third order

523
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: effects that we hadn't even know for seen, and so

524
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: we're seeing that in telecom as well.

525
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you just turned into listening to the Mark

526
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: Moss Show, I'm sitting down with Christopher callicut. He is

527
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: the co founder managing director of Trammel Venture Partners, a

528
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: bitcoin venture capital fund. I got to take a quick break,

529
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: but when we come back, I want to talk about

530
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: specifically what types of projects we're starting to see, what

531
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: he's working on and so much more. Is the last

532
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: part that I'm excited to dig into. Don't go away,

533
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, all right, Welcome back. If you

534
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: just tune in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show.

535
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Christopher callicat. He is the co

536
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: founder managing director of Trammel Venture Partners, a bitcoin focused

537
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: venture capital fund.

538
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: And you know, I.

539
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: Want to we've kind of we started high with the

540
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: macro and kind of dug down into institutional funds and allocations,

541
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: and then there's some bigger stuff. Let's let's dive down

542
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: into some sort of actionable not actionable, a little bit

543
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: more micro type looks at some stuff, and I kind

544
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: of want to know, like what type of projects you're seeing,

545
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: maybe what you know, what's popping up, you know, what's

546
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: the most interesting, maybe has the biggest potential, and maybe

547
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: some active deals that you guys are working on. So

548
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that. And I know that

549
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: you guys also have started putting out some research briefs

550
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: that have been very good, and I know, let's talk

551
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: about that for just a second. On the search brief

552
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: that you put out, and you were kind of talking

553
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: about maybe the malinvestment or the misallocation of money that

554
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: went into gambling into the crypto ecosphere ecosperic versus potentially

555
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: going into like the bitcoin sector. Do you want to

556
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: talk about that for a minute.

557
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: Sure. And I'll set the stage by saying that there's

558
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 3: been this kind of sentiment that a lot of we're

559
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: focused on bitcoin native if you're crypto manager, people have said,

560
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 3: you know, kind of repeated this refrain that I just

561
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: think is fundamentally false that the innovation is not happening

562
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: on bitcoin. Part of that came from the view that

563
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 3: in the startup world, the Mark Zuckerberg approach to doing

564
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 3: things when it happens to be on the Internet's monetary

565
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: layer bitcoin, you don't want to take a move fast,

566
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: break things approach. And so you know, we've been taken

567
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: a very methodical, purposeful approach to any kind of changes

568
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 3: in bitcoin core, but there have been a couple of

569
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: key technological innovations that have happened in the growth of

570
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: bitcoin core that have enabled some new things that are

571
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: starting to happen really now, and so that's kind of

572
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 3: the backdrop for why we wanted to put out this research.

573
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: TVP is in a very unique position to really instrument

574
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: the universe of bitcoin companies and understand what's happening in

575
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 3: startup investment activity, and so we put out the first

576
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: of its kind research brief earlier this year. It's called

577
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: the Emerging Bitcoin Native Venture Capital Landscape. And one of

578
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 3: the interesting things that we wanted to do is challenge

579
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 3: assumptions for what we see we know instinctively is happening.

580
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: We've been observing it, but to get this research to

581
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: institutional allocators, to family offices, to individual investors. You know,

582
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,719
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, obviously it was a down year across

583
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 3: the board in crypto for these assets the twenty however,

584
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 3: many thousand of them there are They were down bad.

585
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: You know, Bitcoin was down cyclically in the in that

586
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: year as well. But one of the interesting things venture

587
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: investment and we'll say broader, you know, crypto quote unquote

588
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: was about flat. However, the bitcoin native ecosystem was actually

589
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: up despite a down year. It was up about fifty

590
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: two point nine percent increase in in bigcoin startup transactions

591
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: across the board, which really flies in the face of

592
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: some of the narratives that get built around where the

593
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 3: quote unquote smart money's investing. And so that was one

594
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 3: of the key reasons or the motus are putting this out.

595
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 3: We want to challenge assumptions. We want for these institutional

596
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 3: investors to realize, wait a minute, you mean that there's

597
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: actually growth and these are very long term sustainable businesses

598
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: being built on bitcoin. Do we have a bitcoin manager?

599
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: Are we are? We are we allocating correctly and you

600
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: know we would we would make the we assert in

601
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: this research that there's just a a fundamental misallocation of capital,

602
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: in particular when if you add up the market capitalization

603
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: for all these scrypto stuff, include Bitcoin in that bucket,

604
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 3: and go further and include every stable coin that exists

605
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 3: on every smart contract platform. Bitcoin as the asset is

606
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: still nevertheless market cap dominant to forty one point one percent.

607
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 3: And the research that we put out said all of

608
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: the venture dollars, despite that market cap dominance and it

609
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 3: being the premiere, the first and we think the last

610
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: asset only got about one point three to one percent

611
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 3: of the institutional venture dollars in twenty twenty two. So

612
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: we think that that's a very glaring statistic that should

613
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 3: make people wake up and go, Okay, I've allocated to

614
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: this other stuff. Why don't we have a manager that's

615
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 3: focusing on lightening infrastructure or some of these kinds of

616
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: things that are investments that we look at.

617
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the big thing is that, you know,

618
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: when you understand technology cycles, you see that there's always

619
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: this speculative phase, and you need this speculative phase. When

620
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: automobile was introduced very quickly, there's two hund and fifty

621
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: automobile manufacturers, but we didn't need them. There was no market,

622
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: there was an infrastructure, and they collapsed. But a lot

623
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: of that technology they pioneered kind of went into bitcoin.

624
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: But the other thing that we see specifically today with

625
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: these everything bubbles is you have money specifically in the

626
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: crypto space, and now now it's in the AA. It

627
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: was the blockchain space, now it's the AI space.

628
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: They're looking for.

629
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: They're trying to take AI or blockchain and go solve

630
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: a problem. They're trying to what can I do with

631
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: this as opposed to solving actual problems. Oh, we can

632
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: take this blockchain and we could manage let us on

633
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: the supply chain. Okay, but is that a problem. Do

634
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: we have a problem managing let.

635
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: Us on a supply chain? We don't really have that problem.

636
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: So it's cool that you could use a blockchain for that.

637
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: We don't need that, And the same with AI. Right,

638
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: And so when I look at new deals, the very

639
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: first question I asked someone, I don't want to hear

640
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: anything about it, Just tell me first, what problem are

641
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: you solving? And so I think when people say that

642
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: to your point that there's no advancement on bitcoin all

643
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: the advancements happening on crypto advance for what solving doing

644
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of things that nobody needs, right, And

645
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: so that's kind of the way that I look at it.

646
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: Bitcoin is actually solving problems like how do I send

647
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: money to somebody in Afghanistan when Taliban runs the bank accounts?

648
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: Or how do I save money in North Korea when

649
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: they regularly search my house and don't let me have money? Right,

650
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: Or when I'm a trucker for protesting in Canada, how

651
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: do I keep my bank out? Right? It's actually solving

652
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: problems today, so we don't need all that tech bro advancement,

653
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: so to speak. That's the way I look at anyway.

654
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: Definitely a million solutions in search of problems, right, And

655
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: you know, right now it's a very interesting time for

656
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: the bitcoin space because we have taken this methodical approach,

657
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 3: A lot of work has been done and things are

658
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: starting to accelerate in a very I think it's going

659
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 3: to be surprising to a lot of these allocators that

660
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 3: they thought they were being very smart by getting, you know,

661
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 3: exposure to crypto and then they kind of missed the

662
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: real revolution on a bitcoin and sound monetary standard. In

663
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 3: the Internet age, and they're smart people though, they'll they'll

664
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 3: catch up. And you know, to your point, I think,

665
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 3: you know, with some of this you know, speculation and

666
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 3: this kind of stuff that happens to be fair. Going back,

667
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: you know, to the earlier days in bitcoin, we said, hey,

668
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: you know, please, for the love of all things holy,

669
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: do not break the Internet's monetary layer. Go and experiment,

670
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 3: build some other whatever you want to build. And by

671
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 3: the way, if you happen to stumble upon a massive

672
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 3: validated market, we'll be paying attention, taking notes, and in

673
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 3: due course, the validated markets that are sustainable and have

674
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 3: real businesses possibilities, we'll figure out a way to appropriate

675
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 3: that and bring it home to bigcoin. And so that

676
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 3: inflection point, that's that's really the timing that we are

677
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: in the market. It's really exciting because of some of

678
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 3: the new technological enablements that are that are going to

679
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 3: unlock some big things over the next twelve to twenty

680
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: four sixty months.

681
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's exactly what's happening.

682
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: So to your point, they've been trying all these different things,

683
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: too many things. But when there are little things that

684
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: are working, we've already seen them coming back to Bitcoin

685
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: and not changing the base layer, but changing on multiple

686
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: layers on top of it. You know, if you think

687
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: about innovation and as many tries as you can get

688
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: what you want. Unfortunately people don't think this through. But

689
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: what you really want is you want the base layer

690
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 1: to be dumb and slow and basic, because the more

691
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: basic it is, the more options I have to build

692
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: on top of it. If I have a flat table,

693
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: I can build almost anything on top of it. If

694
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: I have a very intricate table with all different layers,

695
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: what can I actually build? And so when you build

696
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: this base layer so intricate, it limits what I can

697
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: do on top of it.

698
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 2: And so Bitcoin has.

699
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: Kept this sort of basic base layer approach so to speak.

700
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: I hate to call it basic because it's so revolutionary,

701
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: but it creates all these opportunities to build on top

702
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: of it. If you're just tuned in you're listening to

703
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: the Mark Mass Show, of course, we're always talking about

704
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: the decentralized revolution, and we're talking about the technology of bitcoin,

705
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: which is the decentralized technology. I've been sitting down with

706
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: Christopher Callicott. He's the co founder and managing director of

707
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: Trammel Venture Partners. It's a bitcoin focused venture capital fund,

708
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: not crypto bitcoin. If you want to know more, just

709
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: check them out online. Trammel Venture Partners will link it

710
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: in the show notes down below. But think about the

711
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: bitcoin ecosystem as much more than just buying an asset.

712
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: It's going to change all areas of life, and as

713
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: I kind of said earlier in the show, to be

714
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: a revolutionary, don't need to risk your life, but go

715
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: put some money up, put your money where your mouth is.

716
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: But that's what we got for today. Thanks so much

717
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: for listening. Until next time,