WEBVTT - Extreme Post-Separation Abuse with Jo Fonda

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<v Speaker 1>Seventeen days before the tragedy of September eleven, two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and one, a chilling event unfolded in a tiny New

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<v Speaker 1>Hampshire town. A pilot weaponized an airplane, intentionally crashing it

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<v Speaker 1>into his own home. The attack made national news. Who

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<v Speaker 1>was this pilot? Why would he do such a thing?

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<v Speaker 1>Now the pilot's wife is speaking out. Joe Fonda, who

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<v Speaker 1>was married to him for twenty years, says their relationship

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<v Speaker 1>was characterized by emotional and financial abuse, infidelity, and instability

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<v Speaker 1>from the very beginning. Less than forty eight hours before

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<v Speaker 1>the plane crash, Joe obtained a restraining order against him

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<v Speaker 1>and fled with their eight year old daughter. Joe's terrifying

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<v Speaker 1>story is a powerful reminder of what lurks when toxic

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<v Speaker 1>relationships end. In fact, ninety percent of survivors experience post

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<v Speaker 1>separation abuse, which can escalate quickly and violently, even if

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<v Speaker 1>the perpetrator has never been violent before. Ending a relationship

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't end the danger. From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Doctor Rominy and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast

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<v Speaker 1>should not be used as a substitute for medical or

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<v Speaker 1>mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling,

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<v Speaker 1>and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to

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<v Speaker 1>any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including

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<v Speaker 1>matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which

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<v Speaker 1>may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions

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<v Speaker 1>expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individual

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<v Speaker 1>participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions

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<v Speaker 1>of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Joe,

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<v Speaker 1>it is such a pleasure to have you hear. Your

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<v Speaker 1>story is actually one of the most profound and extreme

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<v Speaker 1>examples of post separation abuse I've heard. Let's talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the man you ended up marrying. So how old were

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<v Speaker 1>you when you met?

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<v Speaker 2>Sixteen?

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<v Speaker 1>How did the two of you meet.

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<v Speaker 2>I was out for a walk with a girlfriend of

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<v Speaker 2>mine and we were going by Union College, which is

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<v Speaker 2>close to my home, and we were just like, I've

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<v Speaker 2>never been in a fraternity house. Have you ever been

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<v Speaker 2>in a fraternity house? Like, let's go check it out.

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<v Speaker 2>We just wandered in, thinking it was like going into

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<v Speaker 2>a Starbucks or something. I don't know what we were thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>but we started going up the stairs and just maybe

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<v Speaker 2>a few steps up. This guy stops us and says, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>excuse me, ladies, can I help you? And he was

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<v Speaker 2>smiling and was like we were just looking around and

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<v Speaker 2>he's like all right, and he let us go, and

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<v Speaker 2>then when we came back down the stairs, he introduced

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<v Speaker 2>himself and it was my husband to be Lou. We

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<v Speaker 2>stayed for dinner and we chatted and called my house

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<v Speaker 2>the next day and asked me out on a date. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so we went out to dinner. I made it very

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<v Speaker 2>clear before when we were even talking that I had

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<v Speaker 2>a boyfriend, Gino, and I wasn't looking to date anyone.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, I have a girlfriend too. I'm like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>you know this is this is fine. We can be friends.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how did how did the relationship unfold from

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<v Speaker 1>that point going forward?

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<v Speaker 2>So it kind of went off the rails pretty quickly, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>even just as friends. So he had wanted me to

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<v Speaker 2>go to a fraternity picnic maybe a couple weeks later.

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<v Speaker 2>So at the time, Gino was still my boyfriend, although

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<v Speaker 2>it was a long distance relationship, and I said, oh no,

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<v Speaker 2>Gino's coming to visit so I and he was clearly

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<v Speaker 2>not happy about it. Though. Gino came with a friend

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<v Speaker 2>and my friend and I went to meet with them

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<v Speaker 2>and they had to go home for something. I came

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<v Speaker 2>back where we were supposed to meet and he was gone,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were no cell phones back then. There was

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely no way to get in touch with someone back

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<v Speaker 2>then who you didn't know where they were. And I

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<v Speaker 2>was distraught. I was totally abandoned by Gino. I was

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<v Speaker 2>irrationally looking all over town on foot with my friend

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<v Speaker 2>and the only person I knew with the car was.

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<v Speaker 1>Lou Okay, and lou Is the guy from the fraternity house.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, gave me a ride home. But then the next

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<v Speaker 2>day he called. He wanted to talk about what had happened.

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<v Speaker 2>And from my perspective, I had just called a friend

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<v Speaker 2>for a ride. From his perspective, this woman that he

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<v Speaker 2>was dating had blown him off on a date, gone

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<v Speaker 2>on a date with someone else, and then called looking

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<v Speaker 2>for free transportation, and instead of it being a conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>he was driving fast and erradically, and like at first

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<v Speaker 2>I was apologizing for what I did because I saw

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<v Speaker 2>it when he said, all right, you did this thing

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<v Speaker 2>to me, and I saw it, and I'm like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, You're right, that was kind of a crappy

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<v Speaker 2>thing for me to do.

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<v Speaker 1>So the crappy thing you did was called him for

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<v Speaker 1>a ride because you had been abandoned by Gino, right?

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<v Speaker 1>Was that why he was driving fast? Did that seem

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<v Speaker 1>like a reaction to that? Because he was so old?

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<v Speaker 2>He was mad about how I treated him, So he

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<v Speaker 2>was embarrassed that I didn't go on this picnic with

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<v Speaker 2>his friends. I was scared to death. He wouldn't let

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<v Speaker 2>me out of the car. He did take me home,

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<v Speaker 2>but I shut the door and like, have a nice life.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought I was never going to see him again.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, and you're sixteen, you're young. How old was Lou

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<v Speaker 1>at this time?

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<v Speaker 2>He's five years older than me, So.

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<v Speaker 1>Twenty one, sixteen to twenty one big developmentally, it's big

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<v Speaker 1>in every which way. You were still a kid in

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<v Speaker 1>many ways. He was coming into adulthood. So you have

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<v Speaker 1>a lot going on. You've been abandoned by one guy

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<v Speaker 1>who was having a tantrum, and then and honestly, this

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<v Speaker 1>other guy was having a tantrum.

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<v Speaker 2>Good point.

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<v Speaker 1>I got to say this, though, Joe, that fast driving thing,

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<v Speaker 1>that's actually a red flag. Everyone can pay attention to

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<v Speaker 1>There's actually some interesting research on this that these kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of antagonistic narcissistic personality styles are associated with dangerous driving,

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<v Speaker 1>and that can show up early in a relationship because

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<v Speaker 1>somebody's mad, or even if they're showing off or they

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<v Speaker 1>get mad about another driver. And I'll tell people, if

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<v Speaker 1>you see someone driving real angry early in a relationship,

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<v Speaker 1>when it's easy to get out, get out because this

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<v Speaker 1>is a marker for a bunch of other stuff. So

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<v Speaker 1>you slam the door, get out of the car with Lou.

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<v Speaker 1>You think you're never going to see him again. So

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<v Speaker 1>then what happens.

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<v Speaker 2>Then little time goes by, I get a call he

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<v Speaker 2>needed to come back to Schenectady because things weren't going

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<v Speaker 2>well with his parents and they were kicking him out

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<v Speaker 2>and he needed a place to live, and did I

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<v Speaker 2>know a place that he could live? So I went

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<v Speaker 2>and looked for him, you know, and then tried to

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<v Speaker 2>get back in touch, saying how I found this place,

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<v Speaker 2>that place. I called the house a few times, left

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<v Speaker 2>messages with his family, didn't hear anything back, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, hey, whatever, and then went about my way.

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<v Speaker 2>By that time, I had broken up with Gino.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting though to me, throw the tantrum, drive the car that.

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<v Speaker 1>But then he doesn't think anything much of calling you up,

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<v Speaker 1>because I think that's actually a big ask of someone

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<v Speaker 1>didn't find a house, especially a sixteen seventeen year old

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<v Speaker 1>right to say, hey, help me find a place to live.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a big it's a big thing to ask. And

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<v Speaker 1>so you do, and he comes back in September. You've

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<v Speaker 1>broken up with Gino. So what happens now?

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<v Speaker 2>So what happens now is I can't explain why I

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<v Speaker 2>thought it would be a good idea to go visit

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<v Speaker 2>at the fraternity house was totally emotionally a wreck, and

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't looking to have a new boyfriend, at least

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<v Speaker 2>not consciously, and for whatever reason, thought that Lou and

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<v Speaker 2>I could be friends.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Okay, So I want to frame that a little. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>because you were sixteen years.

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<v Speaker 2>Old this time. I had turned seventeen, just turned a

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<v Speaker 2>whopping seventeen.

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<v Speaker 1>Not thirty. You're sixteen, you're seventeen. There's a guy who's

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<v Speaker 1>older than you. You had a nice encounter. He clearly

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<v Speaker 1>throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way. You saw

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<v Speaker 1>that drives erratically asks for a favor. You do it

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<v Speaker 1>at sixteen? He doesn't communicate Joe. The vast majority of

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<v Speaker 1>adults wouldn't pick up those red flags. Okay, so you're

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<v Speaker 1>getting into.

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<v Speaker 2>It with him.

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<v Speaker 1>This still doesn't sound like a relationship to me.

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<v Speaker 2>No. It was after a few weeks of him being

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<v Speaker 2>back at college and he knew I wasn't seeing Geno anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>He started to press for like, well, so why aren't

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<v Speaker 2>we going out? Now you're not seeing him anymore? Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>this is I didn't have a good reason, and so

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<v Speaker 2>it kissed for this first time okay, and started acting

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<v Speaker 2>more like boyfriend girlfriend.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's fast forward a little bit. You do get

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<v Speaker 1>engaged to this person? How did that happen?

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<v Speaker 2>Following year, a girlfriend of mine wanted to go on

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<v Speaker 2>a cruise and that would be fun. Agreed to go

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<v Speaker 2>with her, and obviously Lou was not. Now it's obvious

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<v Speaker 2>that he would not be happy with me doing such

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<v Speaker 2>a thing, right, He pitched quite a few fits about

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<v Speaker 2>me going on this trip, but I didn't care about

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<v Speaker 2>his complaints. I was going. This was something I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to do. I had known tension of being long term

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<v Speaker 2>in our relationship. So I went on the cruise and

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<v Speaker 2>while I was on the cruise, I got paged getting

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<v Speaker 2>paged on it.

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<v Speaker 1>The overhead overhead Joe, please come and there's a phone

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<v Speaker 1>call for you. Yeah, okay, yep.

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<v Speaker 2>When I got the call through, it was and it's weird.

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<v Speaker 2>It sounds like a sonic thing. I've never even heard

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<v Speaker 2>it on a on a movie kind of what it

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<v Speaker 2>sounds like. But it was like, will marry me. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like a really bizarre sound on ship to short calls

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<v Speaker 2>back then, I was like that was like but like

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<v Speaker 2>he was barely speaking to me when I left. He

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<v Speaker 2>was so mad because you were going on because I

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<v Speaker 2>was going on the on the cruise, and so my

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<v Speaker 2>reaction was like, you know, this was it was dread

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<v Speaker 2>But what came out of my mouth was yes.

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<v Speaker 1>When you think back to that, Joe, are you able

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<v Speaker 1>to connect back into yourself in a way emotionally to

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<v Speaker 1>think about where that yes came from?

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<v Speaker 2>Even for that amount of time, I had the sense

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<v Speaker 2>that he was dependent on me.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah, okay, okay, he.

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<v Speaker 2>Was dependent on me for his well being, so whether

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<v Speaker 2>it was talking him down from being upset about something,

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<v Speaker 2>so he was always upset about something with somebody. A

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<v Speaker 2>People do what they do, and he would react very

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<v Speaker 2>strongly to whatever people would do, And so there were

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of offenses that I would run interference to

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<v Speaker 2>keep things from bothering him. In the first place, I

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<v Speaker 2>helped him with school work. He wasn't doing well in school.

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<v Speaker 2>I would if he was reading a book for a paper,

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<v Speaker 2>I read the same book. I took a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the same classes. Basically, even though I was going to school, also,

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<v Speaker 2>I was helping him along. He was estranged from his family.

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<v Speaker 2>He was all on his own. His dad had stopped

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<v Speaker 2>supporting his school financially when he hurt his knee, and

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<v Speaker 2>he had a stop playing football, so financially I was

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<v Speaker 2>also supporting. So I was working full time and going

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<v Speaker 2>to school full time. I felt very needed. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>not like in a good way, Like it's not like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh he needs me.

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<v Speaker 1>No, no. I understand the trauma bond can often begin

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<v Speaker 1>through the belief that we need to help someone. For

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<v Speaker 1>somebody as young as Joe, who subsequently did feel needed

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<v Speaker 1>with time, she then felt responsible for him, which would

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<v Speaker 1>keep her stuck. She had a role and function in

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<v Speaker 1>this relationship, and this sense of responsibility is often what

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<v Speaker 1>underlies people getting stuck in unhealthy relationships, and so since

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<v Speaker 1>he needed you, it seems like that was a big

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<v Speaker 1>driver in you saying yes. I guess the corollary that

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<v Speaker 1>would be, what did you think might have happened if

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<v Speaker 1>you said no?

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<v Speaker 2>Just like saying I'm going to go on this one

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<v Speaker 2>week cruise was a big deal, right, And there's so

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<v Speaker 2>much anger. Yeah, so many fights, like he would get

0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 2>physical and he wasn't physical with me. He was physical

0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>with stuff, you know, rip stuff, bang on stuff. Yeah,

0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:26.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, just visceral feeling from these these fights. I

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:31.319
<v Speaker 2>knew that if I said no to getting married, it

0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 2>wasn't going to be okay, have a nice life. I

0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:35.679
<v Speaker 2>knew all hell would write loose.

0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you're you're seventeen, Okay, he just turned eighteen eighteen,

0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.640
<v Speaker 1>she that makes him twenty three. You're kind of taking

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.760
<v Speaker 1>full responsibility for another adult who sounds like a petulant,

0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:55.559
<v Speaker 1>tantruming child, who is reacting strongly, who is always angry

0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 1>about things, who's huffing and puffing, who is financially reliant

0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 1>on you. I'm gonna say it again, an eighteen year

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:08.319
<v Speaker 1>old girl and I guess my question then, is there

0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 1>was some fear. Were you afraid?

0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, I had seen what happened when he doesn't get

0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:18.600
<v Speaker 2>in his way, and it's not pretty. Anytime he was

0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.840
<v Speaker 2>mad at somebody, he wasn't shy about showing his disappointment

0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:26.200
<v Speaker 2>and his anger and replacing blame. And if he would

0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 2>have just said, you know, I'm just going to leave

0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.520
<v Speaker 2>you behind, I would have been I would have been

0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:35.680
<v Speaker 2>okay with that. I wasn't afraid of him leaving me ever, right, right,

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:37.440
<v Speaker 2>I was never afraid of him leaving me.

0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 1>You were afraid of his reactions.

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:40.960
<v Speaker 2>I was afraid of his anger.

0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting early in the game, you already saw what

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.040
<v Speaker 1>that post separation abuse was going to look like. If

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 1>this guy doesn't get his way, the consequences are so

0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.280
<v Speaker 1>dire that it's easier to appease him. And that's where

0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.440
<v Speaker 1>I call sort of tantrums as manipulation. One of the

0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.560
<v Speaker 1>things in it I take fault with the field of

0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.400
<v Speaker 1>even health of well, a person has a choice when

0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.200
<v Speaker 1>someone's having a tantrum, they can step away. But it's

0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.000
<v Speaker 1>not that simple, right, There's all the psychological dynamics in

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.640
<v Speaker 1>us of we like to feel needed. We want to

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.200
<v Speaker 1>feel helpful. We might feel obligated if you're on family roles,

0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.520
<v Speaker 1>gender roles, whatever. And having these tantrums became a form

0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 1>of manipulation because over time you would live in your

0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:25.680
<v Speaker 1>life to keep the tantrums at.

0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Bay, especially the ones that seemed to be my fault.

0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 1>Correct which over time I'm sure everything became your fault.

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, okay, so you get married. Once you got married,

0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.280
<v Speaker 1>what was your relationship like?

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.440
<v Speaker 2>So he got accepted to Duke University to their MBA program.

0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:42.080
<v Speaker 1>That's a big deal.

0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Helped him write his application.

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 1>So you got accepted to Duke University for their NBA program.

0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:50.560
<v Speaker 1>Is what happened? You own that?

0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:55.360
<v Speaker 2>So? Yeah, helped. I worked and he was going into

0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.920
<v Speaker 2>school like I used to just I would wake up

0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:03.320
<v Speaker 2>in the morning and just have this help me, Like

0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.320
<v Speaker 2>like my first thought in the morning was like a

0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.160
<v Speaker 2>silent scream of help me.

0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.640
<v Speaker 1>You waited a while to have children. You didn't have

0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:15.360
<v Speaker 1>a child until twelve years into the marriage. You get pregnant,

0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.680
<v Speaker 1>And can you tell me about the day that you

0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:20.360
<v Speaker 1>found out you got pregnant.

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we had been we had been trying for

0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.280
<v Speaker 2>a few months and then I did pee on the

0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.640
<v Speaker 2>stick and it was positive, and I was like so excited.

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.000
<v Speaker 2>And Lou was getting ready to go on a trip.

0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.080
<v Speaker 2>He was a consultant at that point, and so he

0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.240
<v Speaker 2>was traveling a lot, and by this point I knew

0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 2>he was cheating a lot. He came in the bedroom

0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 2>and I came out with the thing and I said look,

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.360
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, oh, okay, oh yeah, just oh.

0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.640
<v Speaker 1>And I said, oh, you showed him a positive pregnancy

0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 1>test after you'd been trying for months. And his reaction was.

0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh oh, And I said oh. And he goes, all right, well,

0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what you congratulations? What do you expect

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.119
<v Speaker 2>me to say? And then he gave me a little

0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.120
<v Speaker 2>peck and said I gotta go, and he went on

0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.080
<v Speaker 2>his trip. I think the part I haven't really explained

0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 2>is he was also very charming. Okay, so I haven't

0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:24.880
<v Speaker 2>really explained the forward facing persona. When anybody would meet

0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:30.439
<v Speaker 2>him on a professional basis, he's the big smile, glad hand.

0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.359
<v Speaker 2>He was an expert in his field, so to speak,

0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.520
<v Speaker 2>normal people when they would meet. He was laughing and

0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.760
<v Speaker 2>joking around about things. So he wasn't just this grumpy

0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.240
<v Speaker 2>jerk until somebody irritated him.

0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so he would be charming and charismatic. People were

0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.280
<v Speaker 1>drawn to him. I maybe did that play a role

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 1>in him back when he was at Union and he

0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:53.600
<v Speaker 1>was a student.

0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.800
<v Speaker 2>He had it back then. So when he met my parents,

0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:56.600
<v Speaker 2>they were impressed.

0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right. So he had this charming charisma and

0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:04.080
<v Speaker 1>only when he would be frustrated or disappointed would this

0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.119
<v Speaker 1>kind of crack show up, and then he would be

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:08.120
<v Speaker 1>quick to react.

0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you know, doctor Jackyll, mister Hyde, Mister Hyde

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.919
<v Speaker 2>would come out when SOMETHINGE didn't go away.

0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Did other people see that?

0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.960
<v Speaker 2>People saw one or the other for the most part,

0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:25.440
<v Speaker 2>So there are plenty of people who never saw that

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.520
<v Speaker 2>side of Lou that was angry. Like a lot of

0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.040
<v Speaker 2>times he would bring it home and then other times

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:33.439
<v Speaker 2>he would flip out in a store.

0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:35.959
<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, all right.

0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.760
<v Speaker 2>So he would occasionally flip out a in a public

0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:44.000
<v Speaker 2>setting and I would be like, you know, dial it back,

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, okay, we still need to get our food here.

0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Kind of thing, do you feel like? Mostly he brought

0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:51.040
<v Speaker 1>it home.

0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Mostly he brought it home, or he was covert about

0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.320
<v Speaker 2>how he would get his revenge on someone.

0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.639
<v Speaker 1>In these twelve years. What I'm hearing is there wor

0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.679
<v Speaker 1>some good times Mister charm would show up and you

0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:06.119
<v Speaker 1>would have fun. Was every morning waking up with dread

0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.199
<v Speaker 1>for twelve years before you found out you were pregnant?

0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, no? No, okay, now did We did lots

0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.040
<v Speaker 2>of things. We would go hiking. Okay, within a certain week.

0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.000
<v Speaker 2>There would be good in a bad time.

0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:20.199
<v Speaker 1>But so there were good times. There were also these tantrums.

0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.640
<v Speaker 1>You get this lukewarm reaction from him, and you're pregnant.

0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.320
<v Speaker 1>Now tell me about the day then your daughter was

0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:27.960
<v Speaker 1>actually born.

0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 2>He was miserable throughout my pregnancy. He projected a horrible

0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:38.080
<v Speaker 2>life to follow. I was gonna get fat. Oh, I

0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:43.600
<v Speaker 2>was gonna get ugly. We were gonna have He called

0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.760
<v Speaker 2>it a life of crumminess ahead Okay.

0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Was he not in on the wanting to get pregnant

0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.480
<v Speaker 1>in the first place? Or was that just was that

0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.640
<v Speaker 1>something you wanted and he agreed to. Was he ever

0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.080
<v Speaker 1>enthusiastic about there? I'm a little bit confused because it

0:19:58.119 --> 0:19:59.160
<v Speaker 1>seemed like he was into it.

0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.840
<v Speaker 2>He wasn't to it before we actually got pregnant. Okay,

0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.439
<v Speaker 2>even during the process of getting pregnant. He was one

0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent into it, were right, But that was a

0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:13.120
<v Speaker 2>light switch moment when I showed him the stick and interesting,

0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:18.520
<v Speaker 2>and then after that he just got increasingly down about

0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:19.120
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing.

0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.440
<v Speaker 1>So it was more of that withdrawal again. I mean,

0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:23.800
<v Speaker 1>it almost feels like that that pattern got reproduced again

0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:24.480
<v Speaker 1>there as well.

0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I was sure he was going to leave me.

0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:35.959
<v Speaker 1>We will be right back with this conversation. Oh okay,

0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.359
<v Speaker 1>all right, I was okay with and you're okay with that.

0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.280
<v Speaker 1>Despite we had fun hiking and there was this charming

0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.960
<v Speaker 1>guy by and large the dread woman from the early

0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.800
<v Speaker 1>years of the marriage that never left. So the entire marriage,

0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 1>it was sort of I kind of wish this guy

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.960
<v Speaker 1>would just go away, but I'm not going to end it. Yeah, okay,

0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.720
<v Speaker 1>so you have a baby. Did you stay in the

0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:57.480
<v Speaker 1>same house that you were in or did you ever

0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.119
<v Speaker 1>have to do anything like that like look for a

0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:00.800
<v Speaker 1>house together.

0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:05.160
<v Speaker 2>So that whole process was a complete disaster. Every house

0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:10.520
<v Speaker 2>that we looked at was unacceptable, and from silly little

0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:12.840
<v Speaker 2>things like, oh, that has a dead tree in front.

0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.400
<v Speaker 2>If they would leave a dead tree in front, what

0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:17.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of things are they hiding inside? The house. You

0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.280
<v Speaker 2>couldn't have neighbors being too close to you. You couldn't

0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.960
<v Speaker 2>have it can be the best house in the neighborhood, couldn't

0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:25.639
<v Speaker 2>be the worst house in the neighborhood. You can't have

0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.640
<v Speaker 2>neighbors too closed. And I picked a spot in the

0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.560
<v Speaker 2>middle of an eleven acre lot, and that's where we

0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.439
<v Speaker 2>determined that we could build. So we were living in

0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.199
<v Speaker 2>temporary like a condo.

0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.920
<v Speaker 1>And how did all of that go awful?

0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.560
<v Speaker 2>The builder at one point sent it an email saying

0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:49.680
<v Speaker 2>that he was no longer willing to talk to Lou,

0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:54.400
<v Speaker 2>or communicate with Lou, or see Lou. He was micromanaging

0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.000
<v Speaker 2>everything on the property, and then he would blow up,

0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:02.520
<v Speaker 2>explode to the point where at one point he damaged

0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:06.439
<v Speaker 2>his vocals courts by yelling so much and thought he

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.320
<v Speaker 2>broke bones in his in his hand from like pounding

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:13.160
<v Speaker 2>his fist while he was yelling at the guy.

0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're back to traditional reactive tantruming, Lou, how

0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:23.160
<v Speaker 1>are you feeling emotionally?

0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I was furious with you, angry. I was angry. I

0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.400
<v Speaker 2>knew he was cheating in all kinds of every every

0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.320
<v Speaker 2>port in the storm he was he had something going

0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:36.840
<v Speaker 2>on wherever he was going.

0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.160
<v Speaker 1>So he was still traveling for work, and so he.

0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Was constantly on the hunt for people locally and people

0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.040
<v Speaker 2>like if he had a client out in Pennsylvania, he'd

0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.800
<v Speaker 2>be hunting there. If he had a client and he

0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.919
<v Speaker 2>had one in Oregon, he had one in California, he

0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.240
<v Speaker 2>was hunting all the time. And you know, so even

0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.959
<v Speaker 2>though he was telling me, you know, no, I'm not

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.440
<v Speaker 2>doing anything, but if you keep pestering me and nagging

0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.960
<v Speaker 2>me about this, it will happen. You're gonna make this

0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:10.879
<v Speaker 2>a self filling prophecy. So yeah, at this point, he

0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 2>had taken up bodybuilding as a as a hobby and

0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.400
<v Speaker 2>he found a new girlfriend. Okay, but he wasn't hiding

0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:20.360
<v Speaker 2>it from me anymore.

0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.960
<v Speaker 2>So it went from undercover relationships that I knew about

0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:30.359
<v Speaker 2>but for whatever reason you probably know, I don't but

0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:37.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't call him out on him, to in my face relationship.

0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:38.160
<v Speaker 1>What does it mean? In your face?

0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:42.359
<v Speaker 2>Like like I knew and we talked and he knew

0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:45.840
<v Speaker 2>I knew, and he actually would make me clear out

0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:50.320
<v Speaker 2>from our poundhouse sometimes for she had an open relationship

0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:53.439
<v Speaker 2>with her husband, so it was kind of sanctioned on

0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:56.640
<v Speaker 2>her side at first, but then when they got to chummy,

0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:58.400
<v Speaker 2>then her husband was calling it out.

0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So I need to understand this. You're renting a townhouse,

0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:04.080
<v Speaker 1>you're building a house, you have a daughter, you're married.

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:07.000
<v Speaker 1>You didn't call him out on past infidelity, so there's

0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.439
<v Speaker 1>no conversation there. There was never like an explosive I

0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:13.280
<v Speaker 1>know you're cheating. Nothing. He would cheat, You knew it,

0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:14.359
<v Speaker 1>and you look the other way.

0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:16.159
<v Speaker 2>For the most part. Yeah, I would call out the

0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:20.280
<v Speaker 2>hunting behavior and he would deny the hunting for somebody okay,

0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:22.720
<v Speaker 2>and then say, if I kept it up, I was

0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:25.760
<v Speaker 2>going to cause the relationship. Okay, God be my fault.

0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:26.520
<v Speaker 1>I understand that.

0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.200
<v Speaker 2>But no, I didn't even bother saying okay.

0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.400
<v Speaker 1>So now he's got this new one. You're all living

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.720
<v Speaker 1>in a townhouse. He's asking you to leave the townhouse

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.720
<v Speaker 1>so he can have his girlfriend over to have sex.

0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:41.920
<v Speaker 2>With her because she made him happy, because.

0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:45.520
<v Speaker 1>She made him happy, Okay, so now there's no not

0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:48.040
<v Speaker 1>seeing it like here I am. This is to me,

0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 1>the read I would have on this as anyone listening

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:54.600
<v Speaker 1>to this is he is trying to make you leave

0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:55.320
<v Speaker 1>the marriage.

0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:56.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it gets worse.

0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:00.720
<v Speaker 2>He was like, oh, you know her husband is a

0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.760
<v Speaker 2>bad guy, because you know he said. No, She's like,

0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.880
<v Speaker 2>this is abusive. She should actually move in with us,

0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:09.800
<v Speaker 2>and we should you know, pay for her to go

0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:10.440
<v Speaker 2>to college.

0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:15.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Holy sister wives, Like, what is happening? So he

0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:20.320
<v Speaker 1>is saying, I need to take this in. Okay, I

0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:22.920
<v Speaker 1>need to up till now I gotta say. I'm like, okay,

0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:29.000
<v Speaker 1>this just sounds like an unhappy relationship until let's run

0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:33.040
<v Speaker 1>the girlfriend mentorship program in our house and move this

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:39.359
<v Speaker 1>woman in pay her tuition. You're not in an open relationship.

0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:41.920
<v Speaker 2>No, how are you not voluntarily?

0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:44.920
<v Speaker 1>How are you responding to this?

0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:48.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm pushing back, saying no, we can't be doing this,

0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:51.400
<v Speaker 2>and then he would get mad and he would blow up,

0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:57.679
<v Speaker 2>and then I would get beat down verbally, emotionally. You

0:25:57.680 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 2>know about how horrible his life is and this is

0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:01.480
<v Speaker 2>the only thing that makes him happy. And you know,

0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:03.720
<v Speaker 2>because we're living in a townhouse, how horrible.

0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:09.639
<v Speaker 1>I almost feel like a student in question. Okay. In

0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:13.400
<v Speaker 1>any story like this, okay, a person who is so

0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:18.120
<v Speaker 1>enamored of their side person would move out. They'd say

0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:20.959
<v Speaker 1>I've met someone I love them or I fall in

0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.480
<v Speaker 1>love or whatever, and I'm going to go rent my

0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:26.160
<v Speaker 1>own place by.

0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:27.760
<v Speaker 2>Will.

0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:30.879
<v Speaker 1>My lawyer will be in touch with you about the details.

0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:35.800
<v Speaker 1>I've heard that story before, and it's a devastating, heartbreaking story.

0:26:36.280 --> 0:26:39.639
<v Speaker 1>The idea that someone's leaving you for someone else is

0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 1>the ultimate in abandonment. I understand that story.

0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:47.080
<v Speaker 2>He's asking you to adjust to this correct And he

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.560
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to leave, and I don't think she wanted him.

0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:53.159
<v Speaker 2>I think she could see what an unpleasant person he

0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:55.440
<v Speaker 2>could be, so she was getting all the good stuff.

0:26:55.480 --> 0:26:57.520
<v Speaker 2>But I think she could also see how he was

0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:00.720
<v Speaker 2>acting towards me. So it's not like she was wanting

0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:03.520
<v Speaker 2>to leave her husband. Lou asked her to leave.

0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Her husband to move full time into your townhouse with

0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:09.119
<v Speaker 1>you and your daughter, a new house.

0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:13.720
<v Speaker 2>Because a house. Yeah, And then he asked me to

0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:16.080
<v Speaker 2>talk to her and encourage her to do so.

0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:21.560
<v Speaker 1>I just, okay. So here's the thing.

0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:22.680
<v Speaker 2>You can't pick it up.

0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:26.440
<v Speaker 1>You can't make it. I mean, my head is spinning

0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:29.920
<v Speaker 1>with the utter lack of empathy. You know. I've heard

0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:33.720
<v Speaker 1>variance on this, the father having an inappropriate relationship with

0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:36.240
<v Speaker 1>like a living nanny or an au pair, right, But

0:27:36.400 --> 0:27:39.080
<v Speaker 1>this is a person he gets into a relationship with.

0:27:40.040 --> 0:27:43.000
<v Speaker 1>But it seems like there's almost zero self awareness that

0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:48.119
<v Speaker 1>this is a completely inappropriate thing to ask for that.

0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:49.640
<v Speaker 1>Did you understand what I'm saying?

0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:52.399
<v Speaker 2>Like, Oh, he thought he was better than most husbands

0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:54.760
<v Speaker 2>that go out drinking and go to bars and hang

0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:56.560
<v Speaker 2>out with their friends and go place, you know, go

0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:57.920
<v Speaker 2>to sports games. He thinks.

0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:00.280
<v Speaker 1>This is so having a girlfriend that you move into

0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:02.399
<v Speaker 1>the house is on the same level as having a

0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:07.440
<v Speaker 1>beer with somebody and watching a Patriots game. Better than Yeah,

0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:11.080
<v Speaker 1>it's not planet Earth, at least not the United States

0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:11.640
<v Speaker 1>planet Earth.

0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:13.880
<v Speaker 2>And if I cared about him, I would want him

0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:14.479
<v Speaker 2>to be happy.

0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:17.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so this is manipulation on such a high level.

0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:19.919
<v Speaker 1>I've got to tell you you might have broken a

0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:23.399
<v Speaker 1>new sort of world speed record on navigating narcissism. And

0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:26.439
<v Speaker 1>that takes some doing because we've heard stuff here. But

0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:30.439
<v Speaker 1>the idea that you are in a presumptively monogamous marriage

0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:32.800
<v Speaker 1>with someone who was asking you to do this, how

0:28:32.840 --> 0:28:34.840
<v Speaker 1>were you feeling at this point?

0:28:35.200 --> 0:28:41.720
<v Speaker 2>So this is when I started having spells of lightheadedness

0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:47.000
<v Speaker 2>and my heart was racing, and I would feel dizzy

0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:50.440
<v Speaker 2>and I would have to like suddenly sit down. I

0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:53.320
<v Speaker 2>thought I was having a heart attack. A few times

0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:55.760
<v Speaker 2>I went to the doctor thinking, all right, there's something

0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:59.160
<v Speaker 2>wrong with my heart, and lou knew that I was

0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:03.320
<v Speaker 2>having these physical reactions. The physical tests came back negative

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:06.240
<v Speaker 2>for any issues. Then they asked her, well, what's going

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.120
<v Speaker 2>on in your private life? And I talked about the

0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:13.040
<v Speaker 2>stress of moving, trying to find a house and move

0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:16.920
<v Speaker 2>and build a house, and that we've been fighting because

0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:20.120
<v Speaker 2>of the stress of the move. And then they said,

0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:23.840
<v Speaker 2>you have anxiety induced depression.

0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:26.960
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like you're having panic attacks. I mean those lightheaded,

0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:30.080
<v Speaker 1>dizzy and heart attack moments were panic.

0:29:29.840 --> 0:29:34.080
<v Speaker 2>Attacks, and that those episodes were panic attacks. So they

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 2>basically said, do you have depression, anxiety and you're experiencing

0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:41.080
<v Speaker 2>panic attacks? And then they started medication.

0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Did you mention to the medical team you're working with

0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:49.120
<v Speaker 1>And by the way, my husband is having an affair

0:29:49.240 --> 0:29:52.880
<v Speaker 1>and wants to move his affair partner into the house

0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:56.440
<v Speaker 1>while we remain married. Did you share that tidbit with them?

0:29:56.560 --> 0:29:56.800
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:29:57.240 --> 0:30:00.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay, because that's a big one, right, and it's interesting

0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:04.240
<v Speaker 1>you didn't it really really is, What do you think

0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:08.480
<v Speaker 1>drove that decision to not share that piece of it.

0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:11.720
<v Speaker 2>It's embarrassing even to talk about now, because I objectively

0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:15.440
<v Speaker 2>I would say that anybody would just say screw this

0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and leave.

0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:18.560
<v Speaker 1>See. I want to put your feet to the fire

0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:21.640
<v Speaker 1>on that, Joe, because this isn't about you. This is

0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:23.920
<v Speaker 1>about that somebody thought this was okay to do this

0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:27.080
<v Speaker 1>to you. You're absolutely right. A lot of people would say,

0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:30.160
<v Speaker 1>come on, now, get up, find your you know, get

0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:33.480
<v Speaker 1>out of there. What's wrong with you? You know? Absolutely not.

0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:37.000
<v Speaker 1>I think I am having this shocked reaction because what

0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:42.800
<v Speaker 1>this person did was shocking and remorseless and unempathic. And

0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:45.920
<v Speaker 1>when we are in the wake of that kind of behavior,

0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:49.600
<v Speaker 1>we have panic attacks. It's almost as though a short

0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:53.000
<v Speaker 1>circuiting in the system starts to take place. We're experiencing

0:30:53.000 --> 0:30:55.800
<v Speaker 1>this cataclysmic fear, but we can't give word to it.

0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:59.480
<v Speaker 1>And so I fully, fully empathize with the sense of

0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:03.200
<v Speaker 1>embarrassing that one would feel about sharing this. But I

0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.760
<v Speaker 1>really want to put a fine point on this. You

0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:09.000
<v Speaker 1>weren't doing anything. You were living a life, and there's

0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:12.200
<v Speaker 1>nothing foolish about what you did. You had a family,

0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:15.240
<v Speaker 1>you had a child, and we had a guest On

0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:19.440
<v Speaker 1>this podcast named Doctor Jennifer Fried talks about betrayal blindness,

0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:24.000
<v Speaker 1>that when we are betrayed, there is a not seeing

0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:26.840
<v Speaker 1>it that can happen and not acknowledging it, and she

0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.600
<v Speaker 1>even uses this interesting term of it woshes away. Just

0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:32.600
<v Speaker 1>you see this guy. There's no not seeing this he is,

0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:35.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to move this person in. And while there

0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:38.120
<v Speaker 1>was certainly this moment of in the doctor's office not

0:31:38.160 --> 0:31:41.160
<v Speaker 1>wanting to share with them the wholeness of what was happening,

0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:44.520
<v Speaker 1>there was a placing it aside. So how did you

0:31:44.680 --> 0:31:47.160
<v Speaker 1>talk about this in your marriage?

0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:52.800
<v Speaker 2>So we would go through these cycles where I would say,

0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:57.360
<v Speaker 2>all right, you can't keep doing this. This has to stop.

0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:01.200
<v Speaker 2>I need to have some self respect and you need

0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:03.760
<v Speaker 2>to show me respect. I understand this is what makes

0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.800
<v Speaker 2>you happy, but it's not fair to me. Imagine being me.

0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:10.000
<v Speaker 2>And then he would just blow up and beat me

0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:14.480
<v Speaker 2>down and then claim that I had set him up

0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:18.200
<v Speaker 2>for this, that somehow I was responsible for him being

0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:22.720
<v Speaker 2>in this position of having this relationship that he now

0:32:22.760 --> 0:32:25.560
<v Speaker 2>cannot live without. And then he would claim that I

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:28.440
<v Speaker 2>had said everything was okay and that I was fine

0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:31.360
<v Speaker 2>with it, and I was like I never. I never gaslighting,

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:34.680
<v Speaker 2>never ever, never ever did I ever? So yes, I

0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:37.240
<v Speaker 2>had a couple of times I went along with it

0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:38.800
<v Speaker 2>because you beat me down.

0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:42.040
<v Speaker 1>And what did going along with it look like?

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:43.400
<v Speaker 2>Like me leave in the apartment?

0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:47.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I see, And so somebody's gaslighting you. Someone's manipulating

0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:51.120
<v Speaker 1>a eure upside down, so you'll sometimes almost seem like

0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:55.360
<v Speaker 1>it's agreement right, like you're you're in it. That's actually

0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 1>that's the end. That's the end of the gas lighting cycle.

0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:00.200
<v Speaker 1>Very few people get all the way down into the

0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:02.520
<v Speaker 1>sort of the bottom floor of the whole gas lighting process.

0:33:02.840 --> 0:33:05.840
<v Speaker 2>I remember just like literally being on the floor during

0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:09.120
<v Speaker 2>these arguments and him, you know, beating on a chair,

0:33:09.840 --> 0:33:12.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, and insisting that this was my fault and

0:33:13.000 --> 0:33:16.400
<v Speaker 2>that my emotional problem goes way back and it has

0:33:16.440 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with him or her, and that it's

0:33:21.400 --> 0:33:24.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is all about like when I got pregnant,

0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:27.560
<v Speaker 2>that you know, my issues date way back then and

0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:31.160
<v Speaker 2>it's got nothing to do with now. And like, yeah, right,

0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:34.840
<v Speaker 2>I agree that I've had emotional issues for a long time,

0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:37.360
<v Speaker 2>but this has taken it to a whole new level.

0:33:37.720 --> 0:33:40.760
<v Speaker 1>He's making it about your emotional issues at this point,

0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:45.240
<v Speaker 1>your emotional issues, emotional issues, tracking them back to the pregnancy.

0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:48.320
<v Speaker 1>You're even sitting here saying I acknowledge I have emotional issues.

0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:51.640
<v Speaker 1>You do realize that the vast majority of these emotional

0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 1>issues sound like they were caused by being married to

0:33:53.640 --> 0:33:57.360
<v Speaker 1>a man like this. Oh okay, so I'm not you

0:33:57.360 --> 0:33:58.080
<v Speaker 1>know what I'm saying.

0:33:58.320 --> 0:33:58.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't.

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:01.080
<v Speaker 1>Now you weren't present with the history of anxiety and

0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:04.440
<v Speaker 1>depression by your reports even growing up. He's telling you

0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:07.240
<v Speaker 1>you're the one with the problem. So where do you

0:34:07.280 --> 0:34:07.760
<v Speaker 1>go with that?

0:34:07.840 --> 0:34:11.080
<v Speaker 2>So I wrote a long letter because like whatever I say,

0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:12.920
<v Speaker 2>he said it, I didn't say it. So if I

0:34:13.040 --> 0:34:15.759
<v Speaker 2>send an email, then I'll have it in writing and

0:34:15.760 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 2>I could like pull out my documentation and prove no,

0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:20.839
<v Speaker 2>this is what I said. See it says it right here.

0:34:22.040 --> 0:34:24.759
<v Speaker 2>So I wrote this really long letter saying you know

0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:28.920
<v Speaker 2>exactly how I felt about everything. I acknowledged you know

0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:31.640
<v Speaker 2>my part, to the extent that I have a part,

0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 2>but I let it happen. I acknowledged my part and

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.480
<v Speaker 2>said this isn't healthy for me. It's not good for me.

0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:41.120
<v Speaker 2>I can't do this. If you want to pursue this,

0:34:41.520 --> 0:34:44.839
<v Speaker 2>I will be a good co parent. Basically with you,

0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 2>I wish you all the best. I want you to

0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:51.920
<v Speaker 2>be happy. I want me to be happy too, though,

0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:56.640
<v Speaker 2>so I cannot live this way, okay, And so don't

0:34:56.800 --> 0:35:00.479
<v Speaker 2>be thinking that I approve in any sense. I never have.

0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:03.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, there are times when I said do what

0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:05.960
<v Speaker 2>you want, but I didn't say I'm okay with it.

0:35:05.960 --> 0:35:08.360
<v Speaker 2>It was a very loving letter.

0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Writing long letters in order to feel heard is a

0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:18.200
<v Speaker 1>telltale sign you're being gaslighted and maybe dealing with a narcissist. Remember,

0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:24.480
<v Speaker 1>narcissists are all about power, control and domination. Arguing just

0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:28.880
<v Speaker 1>to get your point across can be destabilizing and unsettling,

0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:33.759
<v Speaker 1>as they use tactics like gaslighting and fast paced, pressured

0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 1>speech to overwhelm and dominate the conversation. They always try

0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:44.239
<v Speaker 1>to win the argument. If you find yourself writing long

0:35:44.360 --> 0:35:48.040
<v Speaker 1>letters or text messages to explain yourself, it may be

0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:51.879
<v Speaker 1>a sign that you are in a toxic relationship.

0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:55.759
<v Speaker 2>His response was, first of you didn't even acknowledge that

0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:58.080
<v Speaker 2>he got it, And then he said, oh, yeah, yeah,

0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:00.400
<v Speaker 2>I got that. We decided that there's too much pressure

0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:02.400
<v Speaker 2>on us, so we're not going to see each other anymore.

0:36:03.000 --> 0:36:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Like this means you're going to go underground basically.

0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:08.600
<v Speaker 1>So he's going to go seek out new supply. I mean,

0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:11.040
<v Speaker 1>because that's what these other women are. They're sources of

0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:13.880
<v Speaker 1>narcissistic supply or you know that. That's really what it

0:36:13.920 --> 0:36:18.040
<v Speaker 1>sounds like. So this is the too much pressure is

0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:23.399
<v Speaker 1>basically your letter saying if you want to pursue this,

0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:30.799
<v Speaker 1>pursue this, but I'm out, and him saying then, well,

0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:35.640
<v Speaker 1>that's too much pressure. In essence, he can't have both things.

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:39.719
<v Speaker 1>He can't just basically openly have this relationship in this

0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:44.200
<v Speaker 1>townhouse in your presence. Meant that he actually had to

0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:49.000
<v Speaker 1>make a choice. So he said, Okay, I'm going to

0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:52.440
<v Speaker 1>end that relationship with her. How did that feel?

0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:54.759
<v Speaker 2>I was so proud of my letter and I I

0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:57.400
<v Speaker 2>really thought, okay, this is he's going to like have

0:36:57.520 --> 0:37:00.839
<v Speaker 2>his aha, you know, like I guess it now, I

0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:05.080
<v Speaker 2>see what I yeah, No, it was it was I

0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:07.880
<v Speaker 2>was like, now what you know?

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:08.719
<v Speaker 1>So now what?

0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Now what? And so now he pretended that they weren't

0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:16.480
<v Speaker 2>seeing each other anymore, but they were, but they were.

0:37:16.880 --> 0:37:20.360
<v Speaker 2>At one point he gave her an ultimatum basically because

0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.640
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't happy with sharing her anymore with her husband.

0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.879
<v Speaker 2>So he gave her an ultimatum, and she's like, yeah,

0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:29.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to focus on my marriage now, and

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:31.160
<v Speaker 2>she ended it with him.

0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:33.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so she ended it. When we're talking about mechanics,

0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:36.080
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about, you know, the absurdity of it all.

0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:37.400
<v Speaker 1>Were you hurt?

0:37:37.719 --> 0:37:41.160
<v Speaker 2>I was hoping that they would decide to be together.

0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:44.440
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking this was my potential out.

0:37:44.480 --> 0:37:46.319
<v Speaker 1>So you really were looking for the out. But it

0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:50.359
<v Speaker 1>seemed that him ending that relationship meant you didn't have

0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:54.200
<v Speaker 1>your out. Correct, even though you always had your out,

0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:57.239
<v Speaker 1>I didn't see any you didn't see now because you

0:37:57.280 --> 0:37:58.040
<v Speaker 1>were afraid of what.

0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:00.879
<v Speaker 2>That's the same reason I said yeah to getting married

0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:04.200
<v Speaker 2>in the first place, the vague I'm gonna deal with your.

0:38:04.080 --> 0:38:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Wrath, okay, So you're still afraid of his wrath. You're

0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:10.520
<v Speaker 1>afraid of his anger. And so if he was with

0:38:10.640 --> 0:38:12.919
<v Speaker 1>the new gal and theory, well, he's got a safe

0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:16.280
<v Speaker 1>place to land, he's got his person, he's all sorted.

0:38:16.600 --> 0:38:19.120
<v Speaker 1>So then you could get up and leave and it

0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:21.520
<v Speaker 1>would be less of a there'd be less of this reaction.

0:38:21.800 --> 0:38:22.919
<v Speaker 1>This house ever get built.

0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:25.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so the house got built. She stopped seeing him,

0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:29.320
<v Speaker 2>but he went right back to hunting, sure for relationships,

0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:31.600
<v Speaker 2>and I saw that and I'm like, all right, I

0:38:31.640 --> 0:38:35.399
<v Speaker 2>don't I didn't even unpack my stuff. So we moved

0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:37.600
<v Speaker 2>into the house and I unpacked just about everything, but

0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:42.239
<v Speaker 2>my stuff was still in boxes. I started to talk

0:38:42.320 --> 0:38:45.920
<v Speaker 2>to people more. So I talked to one of my sisters.

0:38:46.120 --> 0:38:49.759
<v Speaker 2>I shared with hers, you know, some of the relationship

0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:53.600
<v Speaker 2>issues with him, and how he was behaving with the

0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:57.359
<v Speaker 2>house hunting and the build and the other women, and

0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:02.040
<v Speaker 2>she was supportive, and it was like amazing to me

0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.960
<v Speaker 2>after all these years of not talking to anybody, that

0:39:06.560 --> 0:39:10.200
<v Speaker 2>there was support. Right, So now suddenly people are starting

0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:13.880
<v Speaker 2>to give me advice, but also saying, well, that's not cool.

0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:19.400
<v Speaker 2>The way he treats me is not okay, it's not normal.

0:39:19.880 --> 0:39:23.160
<v Speaker 2>People don't do that, and it's bizarre that you need

0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:26.719
<v Speaker 2>somebody to tell you it's not your fault. And you

0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:29.560
<v Speaker 2>know they're not acting that way because of what you did.

0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:32.480
<v Speaker 2>They're acting that way because of who they are.

0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:35.799
<v Speaker 1>So now you've got support, you're talking to people, but

0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:38.640
<v Speaker 1>you're still living in the same house as this guy. Okay,

0:39:38.840 --> 0:39:41.040
<v Speaker 1>your stuff isn't fully unpacked. There's a part of you

0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 1>that seems psychologically resistant. At this point, the wheels are

0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:47.680
<v Speaker 1>off right. Your husband is basically having a series of

0:39:47.760 --> 0:39:51.240
<v Speaker 1>multiple relationships with other people. Another piece of this story

0:39:51.280 --> 0:39:54.160
<v Speaker 1>is also that Lou was a private pilot.

0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:55.400
<v Speaker 2>We owned up private airplane.

0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:57.560
<v Speaker 1>So I know that there was a part of your

0:39:57.600 --> 0:40:00.719
<v Speaker 1>story that I'd like to have you share is that

0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:03.560
<v Speaker 1>you and your daughter and he were on an airplane

0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:05.800
<v Speaker 1>and something became very clear to you at that point.

0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Could you share some of that?

0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:11.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I said, all right, I want a divorce.

0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:15.479
<v Speaker 2>We are going to divorce, and he wasn't having it.

0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:20.919
<v Speaker 2>He admitted to a sexual addiction and he would only

0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:24.239
<v Speaker 2>go to counseling of any sort if I agreed to

0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:27.440
<v Speaker 2>stay together. But the counseling he wanted to sign up

0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:29.840
<v Speaker 2>for was sexual addiction counseling.

0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:33.080
<v Speaker 1>Just as an aside. Sex addiction is it's there's a

0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:36.799
<v Speaker 1>phenomenology there. There's no two ways about it. Okay, it is.

0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:41.359
<v Speaker 1>We see it come out in multiple different ways. Pornography

0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:47.360
<v Speaker 1>hiring people to have sex with somebody going on like nowadays,

0:40:47.520 --> 0:40:49.439
<v Speaker 1>is a million different ways you could find a person

0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:55.040
<v Speaker 1>to have, you know, sex anywhere with you. It's disregulated.

0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:58.200
<v Speaker 1>The addiction term is meant that the person feels that

0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:02.280
<v Speaker 1>they almost can't control the earth. While there is some

0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:06.879
<v Speaker 1>talk of love addiction, it really is sex addiction. Is

0:41:07.400 --> 0:41:13.120
<v Speaker 1>it's not relational, right. It is about sex, masturbation, pornography,

0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:18.800
<v Speaker 1>short term sexual hits, whatever. It's not about somebody showing

0:41:18.880 --> 0:41:22.000
<v Speaker 1>up and saying I want to move my girlfriend into

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:26.400
<v Speaker 1>our home. That's not sex addiction. And I think that

0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:31.560
<v Speaker 1>the commandeering of the sex addiction defense people who study it,

0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:34.919
<v Speaker 1>they'll see that there's a whole picture there. There's often

0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:37.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of remorse, there's often a lot of shame,

0:41:37.360 --> 0:41:40.400
<v Speaker 1>and in therapy there's often a lot of work on

0:41:40.480 --> 0:41:43.399
<v Speaker 1>trauma and all. It's just very complicated, right.

0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:47.040
<v Speaker 2>And so at that point I had moved out of

0:41:47.120 --> 0:41:50.120
<v Speaker 2>our bedroom and he was just getting increasingly weird and

0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:54.839
<v Speaker 2>weirder and weirder and weirder. And then he had made

0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:58.399
<v Speaker 2>appointments for dental work for all three of us back

0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:03.120
<v Speaker 2>in Delaware. Haul ourselves back to Delaware, and while we

0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:05.799
<v Speaker 2>were on the plane, I'm in the in the co

0:42:05.920 --> 0:42:09.200
<v Speaker 2>pilot's seat and Angelica's in the back and he's flying.

0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:14.719
<v Speaker 2>All of a sudden, I had an overwhelming clarity that

0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:18.680
<v Speaker 2>he intended to crash the plane with all three of

0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:24.640
<v Speaker 2>us in it on purpose. And so I'm just sitting

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:27.359
<v Speaker 2>there and I'm like, because you know, he had been

0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:30.520
<v Speaker 2>getting weirder and weirder the more it became clear I

0:42:30.640 --> 0:42:37.120
<v Speaker 2>was determined to leave and had made threats vague, that's

0:42:38.040 --> 0:42:41.959
<v Speaker 2>but nothing, nothing specific. And I was like, oh my god,

0:42:42.040 --> 0:42:46.239
<v Speaker 2>he's going to kill all of us. And I sat

0:42:46.280 --> 0:42:49.200
<v Speaker 2>there and I'm like, if he's gonna put the plane

0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:51.200
<v Speaker 2>in a dive, all right, all right, there's a knife here.

0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to grab this knife here. I'm gonna I'm

0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:56.200
<v Speaker 2>gonna blind him, and then I can once he's blinded,

0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:58.359
<v Speaker 2>I I could kill him because I can't fight back

0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:01.040
<v Speaker 2>from that. And I know how to operate the plane myself.

0:43:01.560 --> 0:43:03.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a pilot, but I can do it, and

0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I can dial for help and dial in for help.

0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:11.080
<v Speaker 2>And figured all that out, and none of that happened, clearly,

0:43:11.080 --> 0:43:15.440
<v Speaker 2>none of it happened, okay, But when we got back

0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:21.640
<v Speaker 2>that night safely, I was determined that there was serious,

0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:22.719
<v Speaker 2>serious danger.

0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:26.200
<v Speaker 1>My conversation will continue after this break.

0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Got sense that it's not safe. It's not okay to leave.

0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:36.640
<v Speaker 2>It's not safe. To leave. So we got back home.

0:43:36.800 --> 0:43:40.359
<v Speaker 2>I finally got my stuff together to decide to leave

0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:42.760
<v Speaker 2>and came up with a plan. I called my sister

0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:45.680
<v Speaker 2>had given me the phone number for the domestic violence

0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:52.600
<v Speaker 2>support and called it and explained not everything clearly, but

0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:58.440
<v Speaker 2>enough and got the feedback that you're not crazy and

0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:02.040
<v Speaker 2>if you don't feel safe, you're probably not. You should

0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:05.480
<v Speaker 2>leave with a safety plan. Yeah, So I decided that

0:44:05.600 --> 0:44:08.239
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna pack up a few things in the

0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:12.680
<v Speaker 2>back of the car and go see a lawyer, which

0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:15.280
<v Speaker 2>I was forbidden from doing, but I did it anyway.

0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:18.040
<v Speaker 2>But in that one day, I found a lawyer to

0:44:18.040 --> 0:44:21.120
<v Speaker 2>see me agree to help me. I gave him a

0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:25.160
<v Speaker 2>retainer and my intention was to go pick up Angelica

0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:28.320
<v Speaker 2>from camp and then just take off with her before

0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:32.239
<v Speaker 2>he even got home. Okay, but I don't know if

0:44:32.239 --> 0:44:36.279
<v Speaker 2>he had a sense that something was unusual, and for

0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:38.200
<v Speaker 2>the first time ever, he went and picked her up

0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:42.680
<v Speaker 2>from camp. So I got to I gotta figure something else.

0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:47.440
<v Speaker 2>And then we needed to take a car to service,

0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:52.839
<v Speaker 2>and so Lou and I met up. I got Angelica

0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:56.360
<v Speaker 2>in the back seat with me my car, which was

0:44:56.920 --> 0:44:59.320
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a trick because Lou's like he wants

0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:02.279
<v Speaker 2>to drive that car, and I was like, oh, I

0:45:02.280 --> 0:45:04.880
<v Speaker 2>felt like an actress. I'm like, oh, you drive it

0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:06.960
<v Speaker 2>on the way back. You know, I'll follow you over there.

0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:09.319
<v Speaker 2>You drive, we'll drop the car off and then I'll

0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:12.080
<v Speaker 2>follow you back. And then when we were getting off

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:16.120
<v Speaker 2>an exit to where the car dealership was, I slowed

0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:20.200
<v Speaker 2>down and then I kind of darted back down and

0:45:20.520 --> 0:45:23.719
<v Speaker 2>on the highway and just gunned it. And then he

0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:26.560
<v Speaker 2>noticed I wasn't behind him after he made the turn,

0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:29.040
<v Speaker 2>and then he called me on the cell phone and like, oh,

0:45:29.200 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 2>you missed the turn or you know. I'm like, yeah,

0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:34.960
<v Speaker 2>I need a break. This has just been too much

0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:38.880
<v Speaker 2>and I'm gonna I saw a lawyer filing for divorce.

0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:41.359
<v Speaker 2>I suggest you go see a lawyer too. I let

0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:44.480
<v Speaker 2>him talk to Angelica. I explained to Angelican the drive

0:45:45.000 --> 0:45:48.080
<v Speaker 2>before I took off what was going to happen, and

0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:51.399
<v Speaker 2>just said, you know, clearly we've been fighting. He called.

0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.840
<v Speaker 2>I just kept saying I just need peace, please, I

0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:58.520
<v Speaker 2>just need peace. And went to one hotel.

0:45:58.280 --> 0:45:59.719
<v Speaker 1>So now you and Angelic are staying.

0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:02.759
<v Speaker 2>And we stayed at a hotel that night one night

0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:05.680
<v Speaker 2>then and then the next day went to the back

0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:09.920
<v Speaker 2>to the lawyer's office as planned. The attorney said, this

0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:15.640
<v Speaker 2>is clearly emotional abuse for him, domestic abuse. So he yeah,

0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:17.440
<v Speaker 2>he was someone who had been trained. So then I

0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:21.080
<v Speaker 2>go to the courthouse. Right, we had written up in

0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:25.399
<v Speaker 2>affidavit and I wrote up a petition for a restraining order.

0:46:25.520 --> 0:46:28.520
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to get a restraining order. The attorney

0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:31.239
<v Speaker 2>is the one who told me you really need it

0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:34.000
<v Speaker 2>because this is the only thing that you can use

0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:37.799
<v Speaker 2>to stop him from constantly calling you and harassing you.

0:46:38.120 --> 0:46:40.560
<v Speaker 2>And this is how you can have temporary custody of

0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:41.080
<v Speaker 2>your daughter.

0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:45.799
<v Speaker 1>So you take the paperwork for the temporary restraining order

0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:48.600
<v Speaker 1>to the courthouse and.

0:46:49.040 --> 0:46:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Meeting with the judge. He hears it all and he said,

0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:55.480
<v Speaker 2>I'll grant this. This is a one month temporary restraining order.

0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:59.520
<v Speaker 1>And so you got it. So now how did that work?

0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:01.359
<v Speaker 1>That they were they would still serve him to let

0:47:01.440 --> 0:47:02.480
<v Speaker 1>him know that it's in.

0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So around ten thirty at night, I got a

0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:07.439
<v Speaker 2>call from the police saying they were getting ready to serve,

0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:09.960
<v Speaker 2>to serve okay, and they wanted to know details about

0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:14.480
<v Speaker 2>the house and guns and stuff, and I explained all

0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:20.120
<v Speaker 2>that and he's not somebody that you want to disregard.

0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:22.000
<v Speaker 2>If he takes like a you're not going to take

0:47:22.040 --> 0:47:26.560
<v Speaker 2>me out of here stance, he means it okay, you know,

0:47:26.640 --> 0:47:28.600
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, oh, you know, we deal with this

0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:29.479
<v Speaker 2>stuff all the time.

0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:31.040
<v Speaker 1>Does that go off without incident?

0:47:31.239 --> 0:47:33.480
<v Speaker 2>So they call me back and say, you know, he

0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:36.520
<v Speaker 2>put up a resistance at first, but he gave in,

0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:38.920
<v Speaker 2>went in and got his computer and some stuff and

0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:40.680
<v Speaker 2>said he was going to go to a hotel.

0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:43.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so he's gone to his own hotel. He just

0:47:43.080 --> 0:47:45.919
<v Speaker 1>still doesn't know where you are, right, Okay. Now it's

0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:48.560
<v Speaker 1>the next day. Now what happens.

0:47:48.280 --> 0:47:51.000
<v Speaker 2>Seven twenty in the morning, I get a phone call

0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:55.160
<v Speaker 2>on my cell phone and I see it's low Okay, Yeah,

0:47:55.160 --> 0:47:57.359
<v Speaker 2>it didn't surprise me because I really didn't expect him

0:47:57.400 --> 0:47:59.400
<v Speaker 2>to abide by the order. I don't want him to

0:47:59.400 --> 0:48:01.320
<v Speaker 2>get into trouble. And I also don't want them to

0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:04.239
<v Speaker 2>have it opportunity to leave me a nasty voicemail because

0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:06.560
<v Speaker 2>he had been leaving me like really nasty stuff.

0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you seven twenty in the morning, he violates

0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:12.520
<v Speaker 1>the order, he calls you, You don't report it to

0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:13.000
<v Speaker 1>the police.

0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:17.520
<v Speaker 2>Then what happens about maybe a half hour later, I

0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:20.920
<v Speaker 2>get a call about our alarm system and they said,

0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:24.879
<v Speaker 2>the panic alarm in your master bedroom has gone off.

0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:26.960
<v Speaker 1>You're getting a phone call about them. The security from

0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:28.239
<v Speaker 1>the security company got it, and.

0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:32.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, I said, nobody should be there. Please

0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:35.000
<v Speaker 2>notify the police. Nobody should be there, and if that's happening,

0:48:35.040 --> 0:48:38.120
<v Speaker 2>then there's there's a real problem. So so then I'm

0:48:38.160 --> 0:48:41.719
<v Speaker 2>pacing around and then call the police and I said,

0:48:41.719 --> 0:48:43.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, I've been waiting for a call back. And

0:48:43.280 --> 0:48:45.919
<v Speaker 2>they're like, oh my god, thank you for calling. An

0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:50.640
<v Speaker 2>airplane crashed into your house and it's it's fully engulfed

0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:52.840
<v Speaker 2>in flames and we need you to go to the

0:48:52.880 --> 0:48:59.399
<v Speaker 2>property now to help the responders. I got there and

0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:05.520
<v Speaker 2>the entire development was just all emergency vehicles, police s, ambulance,

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:10.800
<v Speaker 2>fire trucks. By multiple times in the media, was already.

0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:13.040
<v Speaker 1>There because a plane crashed into a house. Like that's

0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:13.680
<v Speaker 1>a plane.

0:49:13.880 --> 0:49:15.200
<v Speaker 2>The neighbors called it in.

0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:17.759
<v Speaker 1>Right, and that's what made the panic alarm go off.

0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:19.440
<v Speaker 2>The plane crash, made.

0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:21.600
<v Speaker 1>The plane crash, made it go off. Okay, so you

0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:25.200
<v Speaker 1>get to your house, there is a plane crashed into

0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:25.640
<v Speaker 1>your house.

0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Obviously the police had the records of me going to

0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:32.759
<v Speaker 2>the police department them serving the the restraining order, so

0:49:32.800 --> 0:49:36.839
<v Speaker 2>they knew that that was an incident house. So their

0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:41.680
<v Speaker 2>biggest concern was that we were in the house more

0:49:41.719 --> 0:49:45.799
<v Speaker 2>than anything else. So for them it was kind of like,

0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:48.439
<v Speaker 2>all right, this is not as bad as it could

0:49:48.480 --> 0:49:52.200
<v Speaker 2>have been because you and yourcau because we were not

0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:52.680
<v Speaker 2>in the house.

0:49:52.680 --> 0:49:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what went through your head when you got

0:49:54.960 --> 0:49:55.439
<v Speaker 1>to the house.

0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:59.719
<v Speaker 2>I was scared that he somehow had managed to do

0:49:59.760 --> 0:50:03.759
<v Speaker 2>this and make it look like maybe he was dead too,

0:50:04.000 --> 0:50:04.960
<v Speaker 2>but that he wasn't.

0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:07.640
<v Speaker 1>Oh, so you suspected it was him. As soon as

0:50:07.640 --> 0:50:09.480
<v Speaker 1>you heard a plane crash in the house, you suspected

0:50:09.520 --> 0:50:12.600
<v Speaker 1>it was him, Okay, because which would be recentble because

0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:14.160
<v Speaker 1>planes don't crash in the house.

0:50:14.280 --> 0:50:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I wasn't thinking it was a coincidence.

0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:18.799
<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, no, no no. I mean a plane could

0:50:18.840 --> 0:50:21.560
<v Speaker 1>crash and land in a street, or in a neighborhood

0:50:21.640 --> 0:50:23.600
<v Speaker 1>or in a yard and arm ahouse. But this went

0:50:23.680 --> 0:50:24.480
<v Speaker 1>right into the house.

0:50:24.719 --> 0:50:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And this was in the middle of it was

0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:30.240
<v Speaker 2>a clearing oh yeah, yeah, out of an eleven acre.

0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:33.520
<v Speaker 2>It was a very precise, precision attack.

0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:36.239
<v Speaker 1>So it isn't. But that jumps out of me that

0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:40.000
<v Speaker 1>what went through your head was that I know it's him,

0:50:40.680 --> 0:50:44.200
<v Speaker 1>and my concern is that he is still alive.

0:50:44.719 --> 0:50:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Somehow I had to lay out the schematics of the

0:50:47.600 --> 0:50:50.560
<v Speaker 2>house so to speak for them, and then explained about

0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:54.719
<v Speaker 2>Low's stature and you know, identifying features and so that

0:50:54.840 --> 0:50:57.399
<v Speaker 2>when they did get to the plane, because they hadn't

0:50:57.400 --> 0:50:59.840
<v Speaker 2>gotten to the plane itself yet, it was all based

0:50:59.880 --> 0:51:02.719
<v Speaker 2>on the neighbors saying what they saw with the airplane

0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:07.319
<v Speaker 2>circling before the crocket. So when they said, yeah, we

0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:10.480
<v Speaker 2>did find a body and it matches your description or

0:51:10.480 --> 0:51:14.160
<v Speaker 2>the remains match your description, because clearly there was a fire.

0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:16.080
<v Speaker 2>The house was just a skeleton.

0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:19.360
<v Speaker 1>So now you know he's dead, there's a body, there's remains,

0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:22.840
<v Speaker 1>you can't you know, I mean, and it was clearly him. Okay,

0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:27.200
<v Speaker 1>it had to have been extraordinarily difficult time. You've lost

0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:29.960
<v Speaker 1>your home, You've gone through the terror of leaving this relationship.

0:51:29.960 --> 0:51:31.600
<v Speaker 1>You knew it was going to be bad. It certainly

0:51:31.640 --> 0:51:33.560
<v Speaker 1>doesn't sound like you ever thought it was going to

0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:34.120
<v Speaker 1>be this.

0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:37.920
<v Speaker 2>And the hardest part was telling Angelica what had happened.

0:51:40.160 --> 0:51:44.720
<v Speaker 2>So that was horrible. And then later that night having

0:51:44.800 --> 0:51:48.520
<v Speaker 2>to call his mother and his sister and you know,

0:51:48.880 --> 0:51:52.200
<v Speaker 2>call my family, you know, but calling his mother was

0:51:52.239 --> 0:51:55.960
<v Speaker 2>really tough. But then after that it was really media.

0:51:58.160 --> 0:52:02.359
<v Speaker 2>Media was relentless, was very interesting to the world. That

0:52:02.400 --> 0:52:06.880
<v Speaker 2>was August twenty fifth, thousand one one. And then in

0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:11.680
<v Speaker 2>the morning of September eleventh, two thousand and one, my friend,

0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:13.760
<v Speaker 2>one of the ones who had been a real support

0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:16.960
<v Speaker 2>person and my closest friend, he called. He said, are

0:52:17.000 --> 0:52:20.640
<v Speaker 2>you watching TV? So which no channel? I wasn't, he

0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:24.200
<v Speaker 2>goes any and I turned on the TV and you know,

0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:26.799
<v Speaker 2>the images that were going so now I had, oh

0:52:26.880 --> 0:52:30.840
<v Speaker 2>my god, like, is this this my fault? Because it

0:52:30.840 --> 0:52:34.720
<v Speaker 2>had been national not just national news, it was international news.

0:52:34.760 --> 0:52:37.879
<v Speaker 2>It was everywhere you know about what he had done.

0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Kamikaze pilot and burns down his hats and crashes into

0:52:43.160 --> 0:52:47.680
<v Speaker 2>the house. And I felt responsible And even though I

0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:51.200
<v Speaker 2>know it's not like I go there like, okay, they

0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:54.040
<v Speaker 2>were probably just going to hijack those planes, you know,

0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:57.680
<v Speaker 2>like but they got this idea from lou to like

0:52:58.000 --> 0:53:02.080
<v Speaker 2>do this instead with crashing buildings, and like, oh my god,

0:53:02.120 --> 0:53:05.360
<v Speaker 2>this is all my fault. Everyone's going to know it

0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:11.920
<v Speaker 2>is my fault. So so yeah, little PTSD from that.

0:53:11.960 --> 0:53:18.200
<v Speaker 1>Alone, yea, I think, yeah, probably other things or years.

0:53:18.560 --> 0:53:22.560
<v Speaker 1>It's it is it did trauma survivors blame themselves for

0:53:22.680 --> 0:53:25.439
<v Speaker 1>things that have nothing to do with them. It's part

0:53:25.440 --> 0:53:30.600
<v Speaker 1>of the architecture of trauma, a throwback to trying to

0:53:30.640 --> 0:53:34.480
<v Speaker 1>attempt to make some sense of control over something that

0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:39.399
<v Speaker 1>was happening, and the proximity of somethings that was such

0:53:39.440 --> 0:53:43.920
<v Speaker 1>a catastrophic event in your life against an image that

0:53:44.040 --> 0:53:48.239
<v Speaker 1>was so similar two weeks later. Is I mean, you

0:53:48.280 --> 0:53:50.600
<v Speaker 1>were in the throes of acute trauma at that point

0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:54.120
<v Speaker 1>when nine to eleven happened. It was it was what

0:53:54.200 --> 0:53:58.520
<v Speaker 1>it was like seventeen days, you know, So that's we

0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:02.560
<v Speaker 1>consider that acute traumatic stress. Most people will continue to

0:54:02.600 --> 0:54:05.600
<v Speaker 1>have trauma responses within that thirty day period. Most people

0:54:05.600 --> 0:54:07.719
<v Speaker 1>will then, you know, sort of it will there will

0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:10.360
<v Speaker 1>be a tailing off, and it'll leave a toll, but

0:54:10.440 --> 0:54:13.720
<v Speaker 1>may not cause impairment in their life. But that connection

0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:16.880
<v Speaker 1>of those two events took what was already your daughter's grief.

0:54:16.920 --> 0:54:19.600
<v Speaker 1>It was her father, and this is not the end

0:54:19.640 --> 0:54:21.319
<v Speaker 1>you wanted. You wanted the two of you to be

0:54:21.320 --> 0:54:24.200
<v Speaker 1>able to go off into your own separate lives. This

0:54:24.280 --> 0:54:26.640
<v Speaker 1>is not what you would hope for. And then you

0:54:26.680 --> 0:54:29.720
<v Speaker 1>also still lived in fear right until the very last

0:54:29.760 --> 0:54:32.360
<v Speaker 1>moment that he was still alive and could harm you.

0:54:32.560 --> 0:54:35.440
<v Speaker 1>This was a person who felt dangerous to you. But

0:54:36.040 --> 0:54:39.080
<v Speaker 1>I wanted now focus in years later because your daughter,

0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Angelica is now an adult, right, she's grown up and

0:54:44.239 --> 0:54:47.239
<v Speaker 1>she will go into relationships. Now, what did you talk

0:54:47.239 --> 0:54:49.080
<v Speaker 1>to her about and when she started dating?

0:54:51.520 --> 0:54:56.600
<v Speaker 2>Honestly, she's been married now for oh seven years. Who

0:54:57.600 --> 0:55:01.240
<v Speaker 2>she's married to her first and only boyfriend? Wow? Okay,

0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:05.960
<v Speaker 2>she started dating in high school. But before she dated him,

0:55:06.440 --> 0:55:08.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, I did talk to her and one of

0:55:08.040 --> 0:55:11.680
<v Speaker 2>her girlfriends, and her girlfriend was maybe a little more

0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:14.960
<v Speaker 2>interested in boys than Angelica was at the time, and

0:55:15.400 --> 0:55:19.719
<v Speaker 2>I talked to them about my experience and good good,

0:55:20.440 --> 0:55:22.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, And I talked about the earlier times with

0:55:24.000 --> 0:55:28.959
<v Speaker 2>even before Lou you know, and mistakes I made and

0:55:29.600 --> 0:55:34.280
<v Speaker 2>not things are dangerous. It's more about the self respect

0:55:34.480 --> 0:55:39.319
<v Speaker 2>and you know, don't settle for things that aren't right.

0:55:39.320 --> 0:55:43.880
<v Speaker 2>If something doesn't feel right, it's not right. Yeah, just basically,

0:55:43.960 --> 0:55:49.320
<v Speaker 2>if you don't feel good, if in a relationship, it's

0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:50.560
<v Speaker 2>probably not good for you.

0:55:50.880 --> 0:55:53.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it's it's tough. That's tough advice for

0:55:53.360 --> 0:55:56.000
<v Speaker 1>young people to listen to. So how have you been healing?

0:55:56.160 --> 0:55:57.520
<v Speaker 1>What's your healing process been?

0:55:57.640 --> 0:55:58.839
<v Speaker 2>Like, I'm married to a good guy.

0:55:59.520 --> 0:56:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Good now, gratulation.

0:56:00.640 --> 0:56:02.600
<v Speaker 2>He's a good guy and he's been through his share

0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:07.239
<v Speaker 2>of bad experiences himself, so in general we're really good

0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:07.879
<v Speaker 2>to each other.

0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Good. But you trusted love enough to get married again,

0:56:11.120 --> 0:56:12.120
<v Speaker 1>which is amazing.

0:56:12.640 --> 0:56:15.600
<v Speaker 2>I never thought I would. I keep a very tight circle,

0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:23.480
<v Speaker 2>so I feel really vulnerable outside of the circle, but

0:56:23.800 --> 0:56:25.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm great with my circle.

0:56:25.800 --> 0:56:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's great. Actually, I think the small circle idea

0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:32.720
<v Speaker 1>is actually very much the landscape of survivorship. I always

0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:36.520
<v Speaker 1>say your relationship with trust is going to change. Right now.

0:56:36.560 --> 0:56:39.440
<v Speaker 1>I want to ask you one last question, which is

0:56:40.160 --> 0:56:43.520
<v Speaker 1>if you could talk to your sixteen year old self

0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:46.920
<v Speaker 1>who had just met Lou in the stairwell of a

0:56:46.960 --> 0:56:49.000
<v Speaker 1>frat house, what would you tell her.

0:56:49.040 --> 0:56:51.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm going to preface this by you know, I'm like,

0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:54.319
<v Speaker 2>to change anything is to change everything, and then I

0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:55.480
<v Speaker 2>don't have Angelica.

0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:59.120
<v Speaker 1>That's good. I'm glad, so I would.

0:56:58.880 --> 0:57:05.560
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't change thing that resulted in not having her

0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:09.759
<v Speaker 2>in my life. But my instincts were right when I

0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:15.960
<v Speaker 2>got out of the car after the speeding, so everything

0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:18.520
<v Speaker 2>was fine up till then. You know, there's you know,

0:57:18.600 --> 0:57:21.800
<v Speaker 2>even though there was a couple of awkward things, you know,

0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:25.560
<v Speaker 2>with the early dates, but are not dating, whatever those were,

0:57:26.200 --> 0:57:28.560
<v Speaker 2>But my instinct when I got out of that car

0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:31.640
<v Speaker 2>and slammed it and said that's it, we're right. There

0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:34.280
<v Speaker 2>was no reason to go back and test the waters.

0:57:34.480 --> 0:57:38.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yes, and yet most people do. But I

0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:40.360
<v Speaker 1>really want to come back to what you said. To

0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:44.680
<v Speaker 1>change anything would be to change everything. It was such

0:57:44.720 --> 0:57:47.200
<v Speaker 1>a I've never heard anyone quite say it that way, Joe,

0:57:47.240 --> 0:57:49.120
<v Speaker 1>And I'm really glad we're sort of ending in that

0:57:49.200 --> 0:57:55.000
<v Speaker 1>place because many survivors will spend years ruminating if I'd

0:57:55.000 --> 0:57:56.720
<v Speaker 1>done this, if I had done this, if I had

0:57:56.720 --> 0:58:01.400
<v Speaker 1>done this, I'd had done this, And the of your

0:58:01.440 --> 0:58:06.040
<v Speaker 1>focus on Angelica, This is the daughter I wanted, This

0:58:06.080 --> 0:58:08.800
<v Speaker 1>is the human being I wanted in the world, and

0:58:08.840 --> 0:58:12.200
<v Speaker 1>a whole series of events had to happen and that

0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:15.920
<v Speaker 1>put Angelica in the world. And that framing of the

0:58:15.960 --> 0:58:22.080
<v Speaker 1>suffering as something larger is that whatever universal calculus is

0:58:22.120 --> 0:58:24.520
<v Speaker 1>being done, that that moment happened, and no, I didn't

0:58:24.520 --> 0:58:26.000
<v Speaker 1>get out of the car, and by not getting out

0:58:26.040 --> 0:58:30.080
<v Speaker 1>of the car, this happened. This human being came into

0:58:30.120 --> 0:58:32.840
<v Speaker 1>my life. It's a hard way sometimes to view it

0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:35.760
<v Speaker 1>because so much suffering happened, but it can sometimes be

0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:39.760
<v Speaker 1>the way to view it that allows us to find

0:58:40.640 --> 0:58:46.080
<v Speaker 1>the psychological strength, the soul strength to keep fighting another day.

0:58:46.160 --> 0:58:48.320
<v Speaker 1>So I have to say that perspective taking is quite

0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:51.200
<v Speaker 1>remarkable given what you had went through. So thank you

0:58:51.360 --> 0:58:53.600
<v Speaker 1>so much for sharing your story.

0:58:53.840 --> 0:58:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you for your work.

0:58:56.160 --> 0:59:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Joe. Let's

0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:05.080
<v Speaker 1>start with one of the last things Joe said. Joe

0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:08.440
<v Speaker 1>ended her story with a profound quote that I do

0:59:08.600 --> 0:59:12.000
<v Speaker 1>hope at some point in their healing that survivors are

0:59:12.040 --> 0:59:16.120
<v Speaker 1>able to feel. She said, to change anything is to

0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:21.040
<v Speaker 1>change everything. I thought that was a beautiful framing. Now,

0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:24.600
<v Speaker 1>I have no doubt that some survivors may not resonate

0:59:24.640 --> 0:59:28.160
<v Speaker 1>with that, but for many of you, there was something

0:59:28.360 --> 0:59:33.360
<v Speaker 1>that grew out of these toxic relationships, beloved children, some

0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:38.600
<v Speaker 1>good family relationships, self awareness, and even experiences. I view

0:59:38.640 --> 0:59:40.960
<v Speaker 1>it as those flowers that sometimes grow out of the

0:59:41.040 --> 0:59:45.960
<v Speaker 1>sidewalk cracks. From the harshest of places, beautiful things can grow.

0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:49.280
<v Speaker 1>We don't get do overs, and all we can do

0:59:49.440 --> 0:59:52.439
<v Speaker 1>is take a moment and recognize that there may be

0:59:52.480 --> 0:59:55.520
<v Speaker 1>some things in our life that came from this struggle.

0:59:56.080 --> 1:00:00.160
<v Speaker 1>Framing these experiences in a meaning oriented way doesn't take

1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:04.480
<v Speaker 1>away the pain, but it may foster your healing in

1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:08.120
<v Speaker 1>our next takeaway, When I hear a story like Joe's,

1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:11.040
<v Speaker 1>I wish there was a high school class on warning

1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:16.240
<v Speaker 1>signs and dangerous patterns in new relationships. The reactive sensitivity,

1:00:16.440 --> 1:00:20.920
<v Speaker 1>fast driving, jealousy. These often are signs that show up

1:00:20.960 --> 1:00:24.400
<v Speaker 1>early and are always a sign of problems to come.

1:00:25.320 --> 1:00:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Charm and charisma can make it hard to spy these patterns.

1:00:29.320 --> 1:00:33.280
<v Speaker 1>In Joe's relationship, she said, she quickly slid into a

1:00:33.320 --> 1:00:36.920
<v Speaker 1>pattern of rescuing with Joe looking for places for him

1:00:37.000 --> 1:00:40.800
<v Speaker 1>to live, and this rescuing can often happen if someone

1:00:40.920 --> 1:00:45.920
<v Speaker 1>believes that this may soothe the narcissistic person. These patterns

1:00:45.920 --> 1:00:49.920
<v Speaker 1>can start getting set early in narcissistic relationships, and somehow

1:00:50.320 --> 1:00:53.320
<v Speaker 1>we have to find a way to shine a light

1:00:53.440 --> 1:00:57.200
<v Speaker 1>on these patterns so there is less risk of young

1:00:57.280 --> 1:01:04.240
<v Speaker 1>people making excuses for pentially abusive partners. For this next takeaway,

1:01:04.680 --> 1:01:09.120
<v Speaker 1>this story teaches us how narcissistic tantrums and the drive

1:01:09.280 --> 1:01:13.920
<v Speaker 1>to make them stop by appeasing the narcissistic person means

1:01:13.920 --> 1:01:17.280
<v Speaker 1>that almost everything that happens in a relationship like this

1:01:17.480 --> 1:01:21.640
<v Speaker 1>is coercive. Being paged multiple times on a cruise ship

1:01:21.880 --> 1:01:24.680
<v Speaker 1>and then having to say yes to a marriage proposal

1:01:25.040 --> 1:01:29.080
<v Speaker 1>so she could make his harassment stop is not consent,

1:01:29.800 --> 1:01:33.760
<v Speaker 1>but yet, over and over in these relationships, people relent

1:01:33.840 --> 1:01:37.960
<v Speaker 1>to all kinds of things to make the abusive harassing

1:01:38.120 --> 1:01:42.360
<v Speaker 1>behavior stop for a moment. Then, when that gets coupled

1:01:42.360 --> 1:01:45.760
<v Speaker 1>with a sense of guilt or pity for the narcissistic person,

1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:49.919
<v Speaker 1>a person, especially a young person, can get corralled into

1:01:49.960 --> 1:01:54.240
<v Speaker 1>a situation that is very difficult to safely climb out of.

1:01:55.200 --> 1:01:59.880
<v Speaker 1>In our next takeaway, there's entitlement, and then there's entitlement.

1:02:00.800 --> 1:02:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Her husband's request that she allow his girlfriend to move

1:02:07.040 --> 1:02:10.760
<v Speaker 1>into their home together simply because she made him happy.

1:02:11.360 --> 1:02:15.840
<v Speaker 1>That's a whole other level of entitlement. We always think

1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:18.720
<v Speaker 1>we have gotten into the far boundary of entitlement, but

1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:22.400
<v Speaker 1>then we hear something like this, It's easy to take

1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:25.760
<v Speaker 1>a hard line stance and believe we would never put

1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:30.000
<v Speaker 1>up with something like this. However, after years of enduring

1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:34.080
<v Speaker 1>emotional abuse in the relationship, a person in a relationship

1:02:34.160 --> 1:02:38.240
<v Speaker 1>like this may not fully register it. However, Joe's body

1:02:38.440 --> 1:02:41.880
<v Speaker 1>did register it, and the cardiac symptoms she was having

1:02:42.120 --> 1:02:45.440
<v Speaker 1>turned out to be panic attacks, which are not unusual

1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:51.880
<v Speaker 1>in people experiencing this toxic and abusive a relationship. In

1:02:52.000 --> 1:02:56.360
<v Speaker 1>our last takeaway, Joe's pattern of self blame after the

1:02:56.400 --> 1:03:00.240
<v Speaker 1>plane crash went so deep that she blamed her elf

1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:03.480
<v Speaker 1>for the nine to eleven attacks, which occurred just seventeen

1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:06.920
<v Speaker 1>days later. She was still in the throes of an

1:03:06.960 --> 1:03:11.360
<v Speaker 1>acute stress crisis, and trauma survivors often do blame themselves

1:03:11.360 --> 1:03:14.840
<v Speaker 1>for events that are clearly unrelated to them, but the

1:03:14.880 --> 1:03:18.800
<v Speaker 1>similarity of the events, her accumulated history of trauma within

1:03:18.840 --> 1:03:22.880
<v Speaker 1>the relationship, and the recent trauma of experiencing a similar

1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:26.959
<v Speaker 1>event connects all of this. While most stories of post

1:03:27.000 --> 1:03:31.400
<v Speaker 1>separation abuse do not have such extreme outcomes, it is

1:03:31.480 --> 1:03:35.840
<v Speaker 1>not unusual for survivors of these kinds of abusive relationships

1:03:35.920 --> 1:03:40.640
<v Speaker 1>and post separation abuse to blame themselves for a variety

1:03:40.680 --> 1:03:44.600
<v Speaker 1>of incidents that happen in their lives for years to come.