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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Kate Winkler Dawson and I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: to introduce you to my new historical true crime podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's on the Exactly Right Network and it's called Buried Bones.

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Speaker 1: I co host Buried Bones with Paul Holes. In case

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Speaker 1: you don't know, he's a retired cold case investigator and

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Speaker 1: he's worked on some of America's most complicated cases and

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Speaker 1: he solved them.

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Speaker 2: Together.

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Speaker 1: We use our individual expertise as we examine historical true

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Speaker 1: crimes through a twenty first century lens. The Buried Bones

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Speaker 1: premiere episode that you're about to hear transports you back

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Speaker 1: to Manhattan in nineteen hundred. You'll get to hear all

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Speaker 1: about the events of the life, the death, and the

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Speaker 1: potential murder of millionaire William Marshchres when his valet is

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Speaker 1: seduced by a dubious attorney. Rice turns up dead. Did

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Speaker 1: they kill him? Toxicology is the forensic key to this

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Speaker 1: particular case. Then when you're done listening to that episode,

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Speaker 1: head over to the Buried Bones feed for episode two,

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Speaker 1: about the murder of Dorothy Mooremeister, a wealthy and mysterious

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Speaker 1: married woman in nineteen thirties Utah. That's available right now.

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Speaker 1: Follow Buried Bones wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes

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Speaker 1: drop every Wednesday. You can listen early on Amazon Music

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Speaker 1: or early and ad free by subscribing to Wondery Plus.

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Speaker 1: In the Wondery app, I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a

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Speaker 1: journalist who's spent the last twenty five years writing about

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Speaker 1: true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Summer's haul, and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 2: This is Buried Bones. Hi, Paul, Hey, Kate.

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Speaker 3: This is our first show, absolutely first show. Can you

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Speaker 3: believe it?

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Speaker 1: After all the planning, it took forever, it feels like,

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Speaker 1: but I'm so excited finally to be here with you.

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Speaker 2: This is so wonderful.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: So you and I were together at Crime Con UK

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Speaker 1: a while ago, and you and I sat down for

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Speaker 1: a long time and chatted, and overcomes the waiter and

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Speaker 1: he puts down this glass in front of you and

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Speaker 1: I look at it, and you said it's bourbon, and said,

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Speaker 1: have a sip because I had never really had bourbon,

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Speaker 1: and I had a sip. I do not like bourbon,

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Speaker 1: and I need to know if this is a deal

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Speaker 1: breaker for you or not in this show.

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Speaker 3: I think we will be just fine. I'm pretty collarant

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Speaker 3: of the fact that you don't like bourbon right now,

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Speaker 3: but I'm going to work on you right now.

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Speaker 1: Well, in my head, I've decided that if I ever

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Speaker 1: get bottles of Bourbon, I'm gonna ship them to Colorado,

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Speaker 1: And if you get anything like Hardsider, you could ship it.

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Speaker 2: To me in Texas.

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Speaker 3: And that sounds like a deal.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing UK Crime cod will forever be

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Speaker 1: cemented in my brain, because you remember, we were sitting

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Speaker 1: there chatting and all of a sudden, the worst fire

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Speaker 1: alarm in the history of fire alarms went off at

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Speaker 1: this hotel and we walked outside and everybody had to evacuate,

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Speaker 1: which has never happened to me before. So we all

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Speaker 1: pile outside and all of these true crime fans who

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Speaker 1: really love Paul, they're surrounding you, and everybody's looking to

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Speaker 1: you for like, what the hell's going on? And you say,

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Speaker 1: I love this because you say, well, listen, if this

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Speaker 1: were a bombing, we would have seen even in the UK,

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Speaker 1: we would seeing this tactical team and that tactical team.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, man, am I in the right place

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Speaker 1: with Paul Holtz?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And we were literally talking about this show when

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Speaker 3: you know, the fire alarm goes off and the fire

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Speaker 3: trucks are pull it up. So we really got off

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Speaker 3: to quite the start on the concept of this thing.

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Speaker 2: I felt very safe.

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Speaker 1: This is definitely the person you want to be around

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Speaker 1: with all hellas regularly, Thank goodness. It was just sort

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Speaker 1: of like a mechanical malfunction and we had a lovely

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Speaker 1: time at the rest of Crime Con and I think

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Speaker 1: that'll that'll be the start of a beautiful friendship.

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Speaker 2: So the show.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the show, Buried Bones.

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Speaker 1: What inspired you to say yes when I called you

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Speaker 1: and said we.

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Speaker 2: Need to do this? Where did that come from?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, you had reached out to me for

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Speaker 3: your other podcast, Wicked Words, about doing a historic crime,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I've been doing cold cases that go

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Speaker 3: all the way back into the nineteen sixties. Really is

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Speaker 3: the oldest ones that I would tackle, but you work

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Speaker 3: cases that are so much older. And so when I'm

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Speaker 3: looking at my files, I only had one that I wouldcharacterized

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Speaker 3: as being a historic crime, and that was Bessie Ferguson

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Speaker 3: from nineteen twenty four, which just was crazy that you

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Speaker 3: had an actual chapter in your book about that crime.

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Speaker 1: So it was meant to be, I think, And that

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Speaker 1: was a wonderful episode on Wicked Words because you had

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Speaker 1: some theories that I had not thought of with Bessie Ferguson,

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Speaker 1: and I had done so much research on that case.

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Speaker 1: So that's when the little light bulb went off of

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Speaker 1: my head, ding ding. Paul Hols is someone I should

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Speaker 1: do a show with. So I'm forever grateful that you

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Speaker 1: said yes.

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Speaker 3: And I think you know, from my perspective, you had

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Speaker 3: so much information about the case I had never heard of.

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Speaker 3: So now I'm weighing all these new details and this

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Speaker 3: is where now when we get to Buried Bones, I'm

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Speaker 3: looking forward to hearing all the information you can provide

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Speaker 3: on these cases and then be able to dissect them well.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you, I'm intimidated by some of the

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Speaker 1: medical things that I run into. I run into terms

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Speaker 1: like nervous prostration and what does that even mean?

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Speaker 2: And you might not necessarily know what that means.

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Speaker 1: But together we can figure out whether some of these

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Speaker 1: cases that I bring to you were done well, done poor?

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Speaker 1: What would we do now in the twenty first century?

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Speaker 1: What did they do then? So that's what makes us exciting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what's going to be my challenge is,

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Speaker 3: you know, try to figure out what was being done

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Speaker 3: back on these cases that are historical, both from investigative

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Speaker 3: techniques as well as what the forensic science capabilities were,

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Speaker 3: and be able to address what they did then and

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Speaker 3: then see, well, how could these cases be approached today,

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Speaker 3: either investigatively or with modern technology.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite time period in history? I

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Speaker 1: ask people this all the time. Mine's the American Revolutionary

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Speaker 1: where I love that time period just reading about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree, going back into maybe the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 3: it still seems like it's a relevant timeframe that I

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Speaker 3: can relate to. When it gets older than that, then

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Speaker 3: it's now really getting to where it's just so far

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Speaker 3: back in time. Things have changed so much since then

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Speaker 3: that I don't relate to those older times as well.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make you relate to them, though. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to introduce you to people.

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Speaker 1: I promise, I'm going to introduce you to people, and

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Speaker 1: you're going to think, well, these people really need justice,

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Speaker 1: or boy, the results in this case were not well done,

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Speaker 1: or the investigators did a wonderful job considering what they

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Speaker 1: were given. So I'm excited to jump into this.

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Speaker 3: And I will be introducing you to the bourbon Idea

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Speaker 3: over and over and over again. How's that.

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Speaker 1: That's a hard no, over and over? But you could

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Speaker 1: keep trying for sure. Yes, Okay, let's set the scene

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Speaker 1: for this story. So this story takes place in nineteen

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Speaker 1: hundred in Houston, Texas, and you work cases in Texas

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Speaker 1: right with the TV series.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know I've worked cases in Texas both previously

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Speaker 3: for the Oxygen Network as well as currently with HLN

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Speaker 3: and trying to see if I can help families get

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Speaker 3: an answer on these cases. Some of them are older

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Speaker 3: cases and some of them are recent cases.

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Speaker 1: You know, people are fascinated with Texas. As far as

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Speaker 1: crime goes, it just seems like everything in Texas happens

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Speaker 1: bigger and it's so much more dramatic.

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Speaker 2: And I know that.

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Speaker 1: Coming to Texas can be interesting for investigators working with

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Speaker 1: local law enforcement. You know, this state has, for better

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Speaker 1: or for worse, such a deep history, and a big

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Speaker 1: part of that history, of course, happens at the turn

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Speaker 1: of the century. And one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about is when we set the scene

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Speaker 1: in history, because I'm a big history writer. I love

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Speaker 1: talking about where we are, what people are doing. And

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Speaker 1: this is a story that actually splits between Texas and Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: And in nineteen hundred, you just can't get any more different.

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Speaker 1: We're in Gilded Age New York where Boss Tweed with

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Speaker 1: diamond pendants and a lot of corrupt politicians, and Texas

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Speaker 1: was booming more with oil and with cattle. So the

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Speaker 1: victim in this case, because I'll have a spoiler here,

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Speaker 1: the victim is a man named William marsh Rice, and

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Speaker 1: he would become the founder of one of the most

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Speaker 1: renowned universities in the country, which is Rice University, which

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Speaker 1: is in Houston. And the story of that is so

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Speaker 1: fascinating because a lot of people don't know that Rice

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Speaker 1: almost didn't happen because of the death of William marsh Rice.

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Speaker 1: And the big question that I need you to help

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Speaker 1: me answer is was William marsh Rice murdered or did

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Speaker 1: he die naturally? Were people in prison rightfully or did

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Speaker 1: he die of natural causes?

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Speaker 2: So hopefully you can help me figure that out.

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Speaker 3: We'll see what details you have.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I'll tell you a little bit about William

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Speaker 1: marsh Rice, because I'm assuming when you jump into a case,

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Speaker 1: the first thing you need to know about is the victim.

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Speaker 1: Is that victimology. Sometimes I get mixed up with the terms.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is victimology to different people, it means different things.

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Speaker 3: But for me, it's really understanding as much as I

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Speaker 3: can about the victim, who the person was, their social circles,

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Speaker 3: and ultimately anything within their life that could contribute to

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Speaker 3: a motive for somebody to come and hurt them or

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Speaker 3: kill them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you straight away the motive here

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Speaker 1: is money. So William marsh Rice was born in mass Masachusetts,

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Speaker 1: and he was born in poverty, and he started working

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Speaker 1: at a grocery store when he was fifteen. And he

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Speaker 1: had such incredible business sense that by the time he

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Speaker 1: was twenty two he owned the.

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Speaker 2: Grocery store Wow.

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Speaker 1: And he went on to invest in property in land,

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Speaker 1: in cattle, and he eventually accumulated millions and millions and

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars in nineteen hundreds, in late eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, which is pretty incredible.

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Speaker 3: Now, is he doing that all in Massachusetts or Manhattan

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Speaker 3: or is this oild? In Texas?

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Speaker 1: He decided to go down to Texas smartly because things

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Speaker 1: were moving west and he knew that he could buy

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Speaker 1: up a lot of property.

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Speaker 2: That was a good question.

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Speaker 1: He could buy up a lot of property, and he

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Speaker 1: started investing in mills on rivers and in oil wells,

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Speaker 1: and it just accumulated money very very quickly.

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Speaker 3: And in Texas, black gold was everything at this time frame, right.

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Speaker 1: You're right, and so there was a lot of money

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Speaker 1: to be had. He did not have a particularly lavish lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: but like a lot of successful businessmen, he was pretty

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Speaker 1: hard nosed.

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Speaker 2: He was no nonsense, and.

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Speaker 1: That created a lot of acrimony between him and other

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Speaker 1: business people. So you would think that's the way we're

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Speaker 1: going to go, right, that somebody was targeting him because

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Speaker 1: of bad business dealings.

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Speaker 2: That wouldn't be unusual, right.

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Speaker 3: No, and then that really goes towards victimology. Understanding him

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Speaker 3: as a businessman and knowing that he could have pissed

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Speaker 3: people off, and most certainly with the money that he has,

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Speaker 3: some of those people could have come after him. So

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Speaker 3: this now is like the first check that I have

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Speaker 3: as Okay, here's a possible motive.

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Speaker 1: So he gets married, they do not have children, and

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Speaker 1: his first wife dies at age thirty one, which seems

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Speaker 1: young to me, but in the late eighteen hundreds there

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Speaker 1: were a lot of different reasons why somebody could die

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Speaker 1: at that age.

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Speaker 3: That's right, with the lack of antibiotics, various diseases, not

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Speaker 3: being able to address some of the genetic issues that

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Speaker 3: people are born with. So for sure you had a

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Speaker 3: lot of people dying much younger than than today.

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Speaker 1: So he kept a house in Houston, but he wanted

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Speaker 1: to move to New York. He wanted that sort of

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Speaker 1: image Gilded Age New York. So he bought an apartment

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Speaker 1: on Madison Avenue, which was a very wealthy area and

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Speaker 1: still is, and it was a very huge place, and

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Speaker 1: he accumulated a lot of staff, including a valet. So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to quiz you, do you know the difference

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Speaker 1: between a butler and a valet, because I didn't, No, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, and when you said valets, of course, I think

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Speaker 3: in hotel valets who are responsible for parking or retrieving

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Speaker 3: your vehicles at the hotel. So I'm going to assume

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Speaker 3: that a valet, a personal valet, is somebody that is

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Speaker 3: responsible for driving. Well, I mean we're talking nineteen hundred,

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Speaker 3: so now this is somebody who's probably it's horse and

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Speaker 3: carriage with rice, right, this is before the model tea

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Speaker 3: is coming out.

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Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, So a valet in the late eighteen hundre

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Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds would have been someone who was sort

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Speaker 1: of the personal man servant for the man of the house,

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Speaker 1: someone who address him, would drive him everywhere all of that,

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Speaker 1: and the butler was someone who would supervise the entire

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Speaker 1: staff of a house. I certainly did not understand the

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Speaker 1: nuances between the two before I.

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Speaker 2: Started with this story.

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Speaker 3: I had no clue for me. The butler is, in

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Speaker 3: my mind, was what you just described as the job

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Speaker 3: descriptions of the valet. The idea of needing somebody to

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Speaker 3: dress you. That just doesn't sit right with me. You

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Speaker 3: don't want that, you know, not at all.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the valet becomes very important later on. What

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Speaker 1: is also important later on is that William marsh Rice

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Speaker 1: absolutely declares that he lives in New York. He visits Texas,

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Speaker 1: but his residence is in New York. He marries the

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Speaker 1: second time after his wife dies. This is not a

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Speaker 1: good marriage. She is wealthy, but not as wealthy as

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Speaker 1: he is. And as they progress an age, she's in

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Speaker 1: her early eighties, he's in his mid eighties, and she

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Speaker 1: starts to consult a divorce attorney without his knowing it.

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Speaker 1: He is kind of a crotchety old man. He's a

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Speaker 1: little Howard Hughes. He has peculiar tastes. He eats only

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Speaker 1: eggs and bullion, which actually sounds pretty good to me.

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Speaker 1: But you know, he's eccentric. I guess is that what

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Speaker 1: you would say? Eccentric?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'm surprised at his age. You're talking

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Speaker 3: about somebody in nineteen hundred is in their mid eighties.

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Speaker 1: But top notch healthcare, right, he had the money to

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Speaker 1: do whatever was available. Then sure, I don't think it's leeches.

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Speaker 1: But you're right, that seems like a really advanced age.

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Speaker 1: But he did have all the advantages of somebody who

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Speaker 1: was affluent at that time period, and his wife was

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Speaker 1: also that age.

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Speaker 2: So she consults a divorce attorney. He has no idea.

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Speaker 1: She changes her will, she's really mad at him, and

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Speaker 1: she leaves all of her estate to her relatives.

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Speaker 2: She says, we live in Texas. Now, why does that matter?

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Speaker 1: Because Texas was a common property state, right, so if

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Speaker 1: they divorced, she would get half of everything they accrued,

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Speaker 1: all of the land, all the houses achreed when they

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Speaker 1: were married. So if she died and it was proven

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Speaker 1: that he lived in Texas at the time of her death,

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Speaker 1: then her relatives would get fifty percent of his estate.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that pretty cold hearted?

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Speaker 1: That's a really interesting way to screw your husband over.

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Speaker 3: But it's very significant. How long were they married at

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Speaker 3: this point.

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Speaker 2: Seven or eight years, not very long. Never a good

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Speaker 2: marriage though.

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Speaker 1: It sounded like she struggled with mental health issues and

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Speaker 1: probably he did too, I imagine, so it was very

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Speaker 1: acrimonious from the beginning, and so he doesn't know any

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Speaker 1: of this.

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Speaker 2: She dies of natural causes.

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Speaker 1: This is not the victim here he finds out, and

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Speaker 1: of course is infuriated and thus launches a huge lawsuit

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Speaker 1: against her family, who is now saying, give me fifty

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Speaker 1: percent of what you have accrued during this marriage, which

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Speaker 1: was a significant amount. During the marriage, he had double, triple,

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Speaker 1: quadruple the amount of assets that he had. He had

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Speaker 1: started investing in oil wells and even more, and he

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Speaker 1: just had an incredible amount of money. I think it

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Speaker 1: was the equivalent of twenty five to thirty million dollars today.

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Speaker 1: Now here's where William marsh Rice where things get complicated

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Speaker 1: for him. What he had done and what his wife,

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Speaker 1: before she died, had agreed to was he was going

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Speaker 1: to give a small amount of money to some of

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Speaker 1: his family members. The wife was going to take much

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Speaker 1: of it, but the majority of this also was going

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Speaker 1: to go to an institute in his name that he

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Speaker 1: wanted called the William m. Rice Institute for the Advancement

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Speaker 1: of Literature, Science, and Art. And he had always dreamed

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Speaker 1: about having a free institution of higher learning for people

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Speaker 1: in Texas. He initially actually wanted to open up an

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Speaker 1: orphanage and then decided for whatever reason that that was

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Speaker 1: not going to happen, and so he wanted to open

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Speaker 1: up a university that would be free of tuition and

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Speaker 1: they would offer scholarships.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and this is his way of really setting his legacy.

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Speaker 3: So after he's gone, his name will live on.

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Speaker 1: So we have a caveat here that is pretty problematic.

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Speaker 1: There's controversy over Rice because before he died, he wrote

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Speaker 1: into his will that this university would be higher education

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Speaker 1: for whites only, which is not surprising for the time period,

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Speaker 1: but it's still horrible and it's a thing that Rice

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Speaker 1: University to this day has to reckon with than they are.

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Speaker 1: So this is sort of the imperfect victim in a way.

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Speaker 2: This is someone who we know.

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Speaker 1: He's going to die, it's going to happen soon, and

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Speaker 1: he's got somebody who's fallible. But ultimately, as we move

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Speaker 1: forward in the story, we see that there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of things aligned against him.

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Speaker 3: At least at this point. Right now, I'm hearing maybe

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Speaker 3: second and third possible motives with the changing of the will,

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Speaker 3: the wife's family now going after him. He's in turn

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Speaker 3: suing the family, So you have a tip for tat

356
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Speaker 3: going on again. These are just little boxes next to

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Speaker 3: these possible motives that I'm making a list on to see, Okay,

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Speaker 3: which one seems to be the most likely based on

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Speaker 3: the circumstances.

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Speaker 1: As we move forward, do wills often come into play

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Speaker 1: and murder cases?

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine they don't. They must.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course, there's plenty of cases out there in which,

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Speaker 3: during homicide investigations, financial assets are the core to the

365
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Speaker 3: reason the person was killed. Wills are a part of it.

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Speaker 3: I haven't had a case in which the will was

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Speaker 3: specifically the reason why somebody was killed, but there are

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Speaker 3: more commonly cases life insurance being a beneficiary of the

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Speaker 3: life insurance. That's what you see. Those are the easy

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Speaker 3: things for people to set up and change names and beneficiaries,

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Speaker 3: and those are frequently why in modern cases why people

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Speaker 3: are killed from a financial standpoint.

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Speaker 1: Well, we now have to get some attorneys involved. And

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Speaker 1: Rice decides to hire an attorney name Captain James Baker,

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Speaker 1: who was a really well known attorney and very very bright.

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Speaker 2: So Rice hires him to defend him in this case.

377
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Speaker 1: Rice's wife's family hires a guy named Albert Patrick. Now

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Speaker 1: he is the key player. There's two of them. One

379
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Speaker 1: is the valet and one is Albert Patrick. Albert Patrick

380
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Speaker 1: is sleazy. There's really no other way to describe it.

381
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Speaker 1: He's very sleazy, and it doesn't start out to be

382
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 1: sleazy this whole thing. He was hired specifically to prove

383
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Speaker 1: that Rice really did declare his residency in Texas so

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Speaker 1: that this community property law could kick in and they

385
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Speaker 1: could take half the money he is insisting. And his

386
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Speaker 1: will says that he considers his home to be in

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Speaker 1: New York. So Albert Patrick is hired by the family

388
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Speaker 1: to figure things out. Albert Patrick cannot prove anything as

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Speaker 1: of now, even though he meets Rice. They have a discussion.

390
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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe you have some ideas. How would

391
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Speaker 1: you go about this?

392
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Speaker 2: Now?

393
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Speaker 1: Would you find bills or I don't know, how you

394
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Speaker 1: would prove that a person spends more time in one

395
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Speaker 1: state than another state.

396
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Speaker 3: Well, this ends up really kicking in investigation one oh

397
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Speaker 3: one in terms of, of course the paper trail, property ownership,

398
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 3: paper trail. But it's going to be somebody like Rice

399
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 3: who has residents in two different states. It is now

400
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 3: going to be tracking down witnesses. How often are you

401
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 3: seeing Rice at this property? And if you get a

402
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,400
Speaker 3: preponderance of witnesses saying he's in New York versus Texas.

403
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 3: Those are statements that you can use to support that

404
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 3: he is a resident of New York or he's a

405
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Speaker 3: resident of Texas.

406
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Speaker 1: So Albert Patrick is running into a brick wall because

407
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,439
Speaker 1: he can't find he's seeing consistently that Rice is in

408
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: New York and he's very rarely in Texas. He's only

409
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Speaker 1: there every once in a while to check in out

410
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Speaker 1: on some of his property. But he really prefers to

411
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Speaker 1: be in New York. And so Albert Patrick, the attorney,

412
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Speaker 1: decides that he wants to get close to someone who

413
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: is close to Rice, and that would be a man

414
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Speaker 1: named Charles Jones. And Charles was Rice's twenty three year

415
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Speaker 1: old valet. He had been with him for three or

416
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Speaker 1: four years.

417
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 2: He was obviously.

418
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Speaker 1: Physically close with Rice, and Rice seemed to really like Jones.

419
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Speaker 1: He paid for some of his education. So Albert Patrick

420
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Speaker 1: targets him. Why would that happen?

421
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Speaker 3: Yeah, First, is the valet Jones? Is he traveling back

422
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 3: and forth with Rice between New York and Texas. He

423
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 3: is okay, So he's a consistent presence in Rice's life. Now,

424
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 3: Patrick targeting Jones because I mean, as we talked about

425
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Speaker 3: what the ballet's responsibilities are. I mean, this is almost

426
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Speaker 3: at an intimate level. Jones is in the bedroom, He's

427
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 3: helping probably serve food. He knows Rice's day to day activities.

428
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Speaker 3: So Patrick possibly could be trying to get dirt on

429
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Speaker 3: Rice or is using a proxy in order to be

430
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Speaker 3: able to have physical access to Rice.

431
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Speaker 1: And you know what's interesting is I want you to

432
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Speaker 1: tell me why.

433
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Speaker 2: People choose certain personalities.

434
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Speaker 1: So Albert Patrick was a smooth talking attorney and Charles

435
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 1: Jones was soft spoken and meek and quiet and subservient essentially.

436
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: So my guess is that Albert Patrick picked up on

437
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Speaker 1: that fairly quickly and.

438
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Speaker 2: Thought maybe he could be manipulated. Does that sound right?

439
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely? You know. And this is where when you are

440
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 3: trying to find somebody who's going to do what you

441
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 3: want to do, You're not going to go to some

442
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 3: hard nosed person who's going to say no to you.

443
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 3: You want to go to somebody who recognize I mean,

444
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: Jones is twenty three. Patrick is an established attorney with

445
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 3: a lot of resources and probably has all the legally

446
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 3: speak and is able to basically sway this younger man

447
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 3: and say this is what I need, and the younger

448
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 3: man feels trapped. He's working as a servant, if you will.

449
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 3: So that is how he sees himself in the world.

450
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 3: And so now when you have a more powerful older

451
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 3: man coming to you, his natural instinct is to be

452
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,120
Speaker 3: subservient to that individual as well.

453
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: And I agree with that, and I think that it

454
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: just seemed like an easy mark in a way.

455
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: And so Albert Patrick.

456
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 1: Was very smart, and we find out just how smart

457
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: he was coming up. So he goes through a series

458
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: of events that never end up well.

459
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: He thinks that it's too.

460
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: Hard to prove definitively that marsh Rice was actually preferring

461
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: Texas he preferred New York. So he convinces Jones by

462
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: telling Jones, listen, he's not paying you enough. He's not

463
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: giving you enough respect.

464
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: You need more money.

465
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 1: If we can get money from his will, I will

466
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 1: give you most of it.

467
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: More manipulation, right.

468
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: Yep, no, absolutely, And he's playing on Jones's insecurity. He's

469
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 3: planting a seat. Now Jones is going, you're right, I

470
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: do so much for him and I'm not getting enough pay.

471
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 3: I could do so much better. And so he sees

472
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 3: potentially how he could benefit his life by going towards Patrick,

473
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 3: becoming more loyal to Patrick.

474
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: And I think that Rice picks up on that he

475
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: starts snapping at Jones a little bit more. I also

476
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,719
Speaker 1: think Rice is not feeling well, and he's not feeling

477
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: well because Albert Patrick has convinced Jones that if they

478
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: make Rice just sick enough that because of his advanced

479
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 1: age eighty four, the rest of his body will give

480
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: out right, so it won't be murder, but it will

481
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 1: be moving the process along. So they start giving him

482
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: mercury in his milk. I mean mercury as in thermometers

483
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: that you're now not allowed to break.

484
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: Mercury.

485
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 3: Well, mercury comes into forms. Mercury itself is a heavy

486
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 3: metal and it was used extensively and still is in

487
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: some capacities, even within dental feelings today, But it is

488
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 3: something that is toxic to the person. Now, it all

489
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 3: depends on how you ingest it. In this case, we

490
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 3: have ingestioned orally. So now the mercury is going into

491
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 3: the body, and if it's in milk, which is a

492
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: water based product, that's telling me that it's probably a

493
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 3: mercury salt salts are generally aqueous soluble or water soluble.

494
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 3: So now the mercury is able to be absorbed through

495
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 3: the gastrointestinal track and get into Rice's body. But if

496
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 3: it's at a low enough level, you're not going to

497
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 3: have the real classic acute poisoning symptoms flailing around exactly.

498
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: It builds up in the body and there would be

499
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 3: symptoms starting to manifest themselves over time, such as g

500
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: eye issues or kidney or liver problems, and then eventually

501
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 3: you might start to see, you know, the palsies that

502
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: come in with the mercury poisoning. You know those top hats,

503
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, the everybody's heard of the mad Hatter, right, yeah, yeah,

504
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: and those top hats used to be treated with a

505
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: mercury type compound, and I forget the reason why I

506
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: didn't know that. And so what was happening is is

507
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 3: you know, when you're wearing these top hats that had

508
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 3: that mercury in that it was being transdermally absorbed, and

509
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 3: now you have that mad Hatter's disease where now they

510
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 3: have this chronic exposure to mercury. So in many ways,

511
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: Patrick is convincing Jones. We'll just give them a little

512
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: bit of murcury here and there, and eventually this eighty

513
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 3: four year old body is going to give out. It's

514
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: still a homicide, you know, it's still poisoning. It's not

515
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: that immediate like a stabbing or a gunshot or strangulation.

516
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 3: It's a homicide that could take weeks, if not months.

517
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because they're trying to evade detection, which

518
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: we're going to hear about in a little bit, was

519
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: not so difficult to do with toxicology in the late

520
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds and right at the turn of the century.

521
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: Toxicology was just really moving then, and so there were

522
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: some tools available, but there weren't some tools. You could

523
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: detect arsenic cyanide, some other things, but mercury. I don't

524
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: know if they would pick that up in a blood

525
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: test or not during that time period.

526
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: And this is where I had to go back. I

527
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 3: actually have a book written in eighteen ninety two, The

528
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: Essentials of Forensic Medical Toxicology and Hygiene.

529
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: Oh that must be a fun read.

530
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: Oh kids, I don't believe me. But this is where, well,

531
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 3: what could they do to detect a heavy metal like mercury?

532
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: And really it was just qualitative chemistry. They would take

533
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: like the stomach contents, they could do a solve an

534
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: extraction in order to get the mercury away from all

535
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 3: the other contaminants from the stomach. And then now they

536
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: just do a chemical reaction where they're looking for a

537
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: type of precipitate, something that will turn solid, to be

538
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: a certain color, certain shape, et cetera, where they go, Okay,

539
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: that tells us that mercury was in this stomach contents,

540
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: but it's not definitive, nor does it tell you how much.

541
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 3: So it was still in nineteen hundreds. Even though toxicology

542
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 3: is amazing what they could do with qualitative chemistry, it

543
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 3: still isn't very informative relative to what can be done

544
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 3: today with the modern technology, the instrumental analysis going after

545
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 3: blood samples, urine samples, et cetera.

546
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: Because in the eighteen hundreds, in this case nineteen hundred,

547
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 1: they have to know what they're looking for, right. I mean,

548
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: I've dealt with a lot of cases where they just

549
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: never found it because they never suspected that there would

550
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: be morphine when it looked like it was a kidney disease.

551
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 3: Well, and that's where they were so reliant upon those symptoms.

552
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 3: The progression of chronic mercury exposure is different than chronic

553
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: arsenic exposure or acute If you drink a whole bunch

554
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: of mercury all at once, those symptoms and the damage

555
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: to the issues in the esophagus, the stomach, et cetera

556
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: is different and visually looks different than if you, let's

557
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: say you were to take cyanide or arsenic. So they

558
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: relied so much on the doctors to be able to

559
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 3: recognize that. But how often are these doctors seeing these

560
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: types of things. You know, it's only going to be

561
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 3: your forensic pathologists who get that concentration of you know,

562
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,719
Speaker 3: they're doing an autopsy, and poisonings are much more common

563
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: back then than they are today.

564
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you give them too much, it's going to

565
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: be a red flag for a lot of doctors. If

566
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: you don't give them enough, it doesn't kill them. And

567
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: that's what happened. They didn't give him enough. Okay, he

568
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: got indigestion, he got diarrhea, and that was about it.

569
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: From the various types of doses of mercury that they

570
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: gave him. An eighty four year old man survived all that.

571
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I bet that indigestion and diarrhea from the

572
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 3: exposure to mercury was not mild. My thinking is is

573
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: that Rice was suffering while he was trying to recover

574
00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 3: from that exposure.

575
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: For sure.

576
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: The next thing they did while they tried to figure

577
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: out how to kill him was they decided that they

578
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: wanted to work up a new will. And of course

579
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: this is Albert Patrick supposedly doing all of this, and

580
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: Charles Jones of Valet is just kind of moving along

581
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: as a lackey. So Albert Patrick does something that I

582
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: think is very smart. He works up a new will,

583
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: and they ended up forging Rice's signature, just doing the

584
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: old fashion what I would do as a kid, put

585
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: a piece of paper on top of my mom's signature

586
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: and trace it. Okay, And this is where I think

587
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: Patrick was smart. In this new will, William marsh Rice

588
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: had left a portion two relatives and the rest was

589
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: going to go to the Rice Institute. In this new will,

590
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: Albert Patrick wrote that this group of relatives who would

591
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: be the ones to contest the will, he gave them

592
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: more money in the forged will, so they didn't say anything.

593
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: They wouldn't have said anything. They got more money and

594
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: the rest was in his name and Albert Patrick, so

595
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: he just said, get it, I'm just going to take

596
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: all the money and it would keep everybody else's mouth shut.

597
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: So I thought that was very smart.

598
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: So he's actually putting the majority of the money in

599
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: his name.

600
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: Yes, because he and Rice had done business long, long,

601
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: long time ago, and so he could say as his

602
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: legal consultant, and most people would have said, Okay, we

603
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: understand that.

604
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, for me, I've got alarm Bell's you know,

605
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 3: diinging in my head as an investigator if Rice was

606
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: thought to be a victim of a homicide, and I've

607
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: got the attorney that's representing the dead wife's family and

608
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 3: a very contentious divorce proceeding, and now this attorney is

609
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 3: named as the primary beneficiary. Okay, there's some meat on

610
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: that bone that needs to be dug into.

611
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: Yep, I agree.

612
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: So while Albert Patrick is trying to sort out is

613
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: it now time to just kill the old man off,

614
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: he is saying that his biggest concern is autopsy. He

615
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: thinks that there will be an autopsy on Rice's body

616
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: because he's wealthy and this is not an autumn, right,

617
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: not everybody gets an autopsy if it's not a suspicious death.

618
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: Is that true?

619
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 3: Well, if today, if somebody dies under medical care, the

620
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: medical doctor can attribute the cause of death, and the

621
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: corner or medical examiner's office may or may not decide

622
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: that they are going to proceed with an autopsy. So

623
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: there is still the possibility if there's something that the

624
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: coroner or medical examiner feels is whether it be suspicious

625
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: or there's medical or public health safety concerns, they will say,

626
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 3: I don't care if that medical doctor is signing off,

627
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 3: we are going to take a look at this body

628
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: and see what's going on. But generally, anybody who dies

629
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: outside the presence of direct medical care, or dies suspiciously

630
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: or via an accident, yes they are going to be autopsied.

631
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: So Albert Patrick actually did have something to be worried

632
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: about in this case, it sounds like there would likely

633
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: be an autopsy.

634
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know how they would have handled

635
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: that back then. If he was just found dead in

636
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 3: his bed and there was no signs of violence or

637
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 3: no signs of any type of illness, that there would

638
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: be health concerns, then it's possible that somebody would just

639
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: attribute to natural death. He lived a long life, and

640
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: let's go ahead and get him to the funeral home.

641
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: Well, I think that Albert Patrick had the same concern

642
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: you did that people were going to look at this

643
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: new will and say, who is this guy?

644
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: And why would Rice.

645
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: Have left sixty to seventy percent of his fortune to

646
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: this guy instead of setting up this institute. So once

647
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: they started formulating a plan on how to kill him,

648
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: Albert Patrick asked Charles Jones, the valet, to forge another letter.

649
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: And this was a letter that said, from William marsh Rice,

650
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: I do not want to be buried. I want to

651
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: be cremated because embalming sounds like a terrible thing and

652
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: I don't want that to happen to my body.

653
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: So I would like to be cremated immediately.

654
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 3: So now you have a twenty three year old valet

655
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: who's forging this letter supposedly from Rice, and so it's

656
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: a handwritten letter. The will, by chance was that type set,

657
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: I believe.

658
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: So so then we got into typography too, and I

659
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: think they talked about that.

660
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 2: In the trial.

661
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, because if there's just a signature on the

662
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 3: will that's been forged, at least today credible document examiners.

663
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: Handwriting experts generally will say there isn't enough just within

664
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: a signature for me to be able to detect a

665
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: forgery unless it's very obvious. I mean, if they literally

666
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 3: are doing a tracing, then yes, that becomes pretty obvious

667
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 3: to an experienced expert. But they usually want to have

668
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 3: more writing in order to be able to get a

669
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: better sense of all the various permutations of the care

670
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 3: characteristics that we all have when we write. So now

671
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 3: this handwritten letter becomes critical evidence towards what now is

672
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 3: sounding like to me a conspiracy between Patrick and Jones.

673
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: Even though Jones is just kind of following Patrick's lead,

674
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 3: he's an adult male who's an active participant. He is

675
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 3: committing a crime, and so detecting that forgery through that

676
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 3: handwriting is something that could be done then and most

677
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: certainly done now with the will, with the typeset. I'm

678
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 3: sure Patrick didn't have access to whatever typewriter was done

679
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: to generate the original will for Rice, and so now

680
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 3: there can be a comparison between the typewriters or whatever

681
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 3: type of printing instrument was used in order to see Okay,

682
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: this is something that Patrick had access to and this

683
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: is what it's done. Today, it's so much easier to

684
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 3: show let's say, alterations to a document or tools that

685
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 3: were used to produce the document that the forger had

686
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: access to. You know, back in the day before you know,

687
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 3: everybody had computers, we would collect typewriters for this type

688
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 3: of comparison and you could pull the ribbons out of

689
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: the typewriter, and the ribbons they scroll as you're typing,

690
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: and you can literally take that ribbon and read what's

691
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 3: been typed. But you also because of the variances within

692
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: the construction of the typewriter. This is where now one

693
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 3: typewriter with its keys, and then all the sub characteristics

694
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: within each key, like the K maybe form slightly different

695
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: or have an imperfection in it. You can do a

696
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: physical comparison between the typed will and that typewriter and go,

697
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 3: this typewriter produced this will.

698
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: Is it as unique as striations on a bullet?

699
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 2: Is it the same sort of concept?

700
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: Well, in terms of the manufacturing defects, you know, that's

701
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 3: something like with firearms, that is very real, and yes,

702
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 3: with the typewriter, anything that has got a manufacturing process.

703
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 3: Studies are done to show how different consecutive objects that

704
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: have flowed through the manufacturing process. How they have these

705
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: microscopic differences, you know, especially with the metals, And I mean,

706
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 3: it's really gets into the weeds when you start talking

707
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: about the type of manufacturing process and what it produces.

708
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 3: But when you have I don't know how many keys

709
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: are on a typewriter off the top of my head,

710
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 3: but let's say you have roughly fifty keys. Each one

711
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: of those has a set of unique characteristics and that

712
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 3: can be transferred onto the typed page. And then you

713
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 3: start taking a look at I'll do the all the

714
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: s's on this type page, match the defects on the

715
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: s on this typewriter, and then going about the a's

716
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 3: and what about the d's, And then pretty soon you're

717
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 3: going this typewriter produced this piece of paper.

718
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: Well, I'll say that this I knew because this all

719
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: comes up into trial and you, Polholes are a genius,

720
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: and you are.

721
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: You are right along with the.

722
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 1: Nineteen hundred district attorney who prosecuted this game.

723
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 2: I'll tell you more about that in a minute, though. So, yes,

724
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: you are right on so far.

725
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: I jumped the gun on you.

726
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: Then no, you were perfect.

727
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: So now we have a sense of urgency, and the

728
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: sense of urgency comes with the great Galveston hurricane that

729
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: wiped out the entire island in nineteen hundred, which was,

730
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: I believe still is America's worst natural disaster.

731
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: Really yeah, it was.

732
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: Eric Larson, who's one of my favorite authors, wrote a

733
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: book about it, and it's called Isaac Storm. My family

734
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: and I go to Galveston a lot, and it just

735
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: wiped out the whole island, killed so many people. So

736
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: Rice is in New York. His refineries was right outside Galveston.

737
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: One had some severe damage, and the refineries manager got

738
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: a hold of him and said, we need to rebuild.

739
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: And Rice said how much money do you need? And

740
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 1: he said a quarter of a million dollars. So Jones

741
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: here's this, reports back to Patrick, and of course Patrick says,

742
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: oh shit, there goes a portion of our money.

743
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: We need to do this now.

744
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: So they begin forging letters from Rice to put off

745
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: the manager. Rice says, I want to rebuild, but it's

746
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: not going to happen right now. They seem panicked to me.

747
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, well two hudred and fifty thousand dollars back

748
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: in nineteen hundred, it's a lot of money.

749
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a big chunk of his estate.

750
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: It was. It was not the most, but it was

751
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: something that if you're Albert Patrick and you're thinking you're

752
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: going to get all this money and now for no

753
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: good reason, you're going to be a quarter of a

754
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: million dollars less rich, that would panic anybody.

755
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: And he wants to move the timeline up of the murder.

756
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 3: It sounds like this is just sheer greed at this point.

757
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 1: Yep.

758
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: So he is being poisoned slowly with mercury.

759
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: It's not working, and finally they make a decision that

760
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: in September of nineteen hundred, it's time for William marsh

761
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: Rice to die. Now, everybody in this case there are

762
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: of course differing accounts to what happens next. So what

763
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: we have to do is take the valet account because eventually,

764
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: of course this all unravels, and that's why we know

765
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: about this case at all. So Charles Jones says that

766
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 1: Albert Patrick said we need to kill him, and Charles

767
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: Jones says, well, how are we going to do that?

768
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: And Albert Patrick says, you're going to take a rag

769
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: and you're going to put chloroform all over the rag

770
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: and you're going to put it over his face and

771
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: he's essentially going to have a heart attack and die.

772
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: I did not know that it was possible to die

773
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: from chloroform, so I looked it up, and I asked

774
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: you to look it up too. What did you find out?

775
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: Did you know anything about chloroform to begin with?

776
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: I actually did. I've used chloroform in the lab, had

777
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 3: to be familiar with its properties. It is a very

778
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 3: common solvent that is used in scientific industry. Chloroform used

779
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: to be used as an anesthetic, you know, for surgery.

780
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 3: That and diethyl ether were kind of the two very

781
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: early anesthetic compounds. And so yes, it is something that

782
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 3: can render somebody unconscious or kills someone. And it kills

783
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 3: by your respiratory depression, just like opiates. Right you overdose

784
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 3: on an opiate, basically your body no longer it just

785
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 3: it can't breathe anymore. You're not able to inhale well.

786
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 3: With the chloroform, it puts your body into a state

787
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 3: where it is no longer breathing, and that's how you die.

788
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: And that's with a very acute exposure. This is where

789
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: now you're talking about large amounts of chloroform that are

790
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 3: being administered. Now, the interesting thing everybody's seen in the movies,

791
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 3: you know, particularly in the older movies. You know, the

792
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: killer comes up with the chloroform soaked handkerchief and puts

793
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 3: it over somebody's mouth and the person just immediately collapses.

794
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: That's not what happens. This is a relative least small

795
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: amount of chloroform that is being inhaled off of that rag.

796
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: You would have to hold that rag over this person's

797
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,919
Speaker 3: mouth for an extended period of time before they even

798
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: lose consciousness. So now under that circumstance, you imagine Jones

799
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 3: going up to Rice and putting a rag of chloroform

800
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 3: over his mouth. You think Rice is going to fight, Well,

801
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 3: now you're going to have evidence of asphyxia. Now you're

802
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 3: going to be seeing he's going to have to struggle.

803
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: Jones is going to have to struggle with Rice. You're

804
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 3: going to see the abrasions to the mouth and the nose,

805
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 3: the teeth, indentations in the gums. There may be physical combat,

806
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 3: and I'm sure Jones probably could dominate Rice at their

807
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: respective points in their lives physically, but Rice is still

808
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 3: going to probably have old man's strength and be able

809
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 3: to get a blow in or scratch or something like that.

810
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: I don't think i've heard of old man's strength before.

811
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 3: Oh well, hey it's real. Believe me. I'm an old man.

812
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 3: I have some old man's strength. But this is where,

813
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: you know, there's that myth that is perpetuated in the

814
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 3: movies about this rag. So this is where I'm going. Well,

815
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 3: if Jones is saying that that's how this happened, I

816
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 3: want to know a little bit more. And this is

817
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 3: where the autopsy, I think comes in.

818
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: So let me tell you what Charles Jones said, because

819
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: this is the main source of what happened that night.

820
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: So Charles Jones says that Albert Patrick says, this is

821
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: the night to do it. We're not going to be

822
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: able to get away with this much longer. He's gonna

823
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: want to send this check at some point for a

824
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: quarter of a million dollars.

825
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: We don't want him to send it. This is the

826
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 2: night to do it.

827
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: He hands him rags with a bottle of chloroform, and

828
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: he says, wait till the old man's asleep on the couch,

829
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: Pour a chloroform all over the rag and then put

830
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: it on his face and it'll knock him out and

831
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: then he'll have a heart attack and he'll die. And

832
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: Jones says he did that. He waited if the old

833
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: man was asleep. Rice was asleep on the couch. He

834
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: put the rag on. He didn't hold the rag on

835
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: his face, he said. He laid it on his face,

836
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: and eventually Rice stopped breathing. There was no fighting, no nothing.

837
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: Does that sound logical to you.

838
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 3: Some of the concerns that I had related to the

839
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 3: use of a rag saturated with chloroform and how long

840
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 3: it would take there would be the signs of asphyxia.

841
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: Under this scenario, he's avoiding a lot of the potential

842
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: injuries that would be seen by investigators or pathologists to

843
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 3: show that there had been an asphyxial act that occurred

844
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 3: on Rice. So under that circumstance, I'm a little bit

845
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 3: more intrigued about the possibility that if this chloroform rag

846
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 3: is over Rice's nose and mouth for a longer period

847
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: of time, would that be sufficient to cause respiratory depression.

848
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

849
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: I'm not absolutely convinced of that, but at least it

850
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: puts it within the world of possibility. Where I'd be

851
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 3: reaching out to an expert and saying, hey, what about

852
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 3: this scenario?

853
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: I think the big question for me and for some

854
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: of the medical experts in nineteen.

855
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: Hundred was, if you are asleep, even if.

856
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: You're an older man who's lulled into a really deep sleep,

857
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: if you smelled and felt something on your face, when

858
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: your natural instinct would be just to knock it off

859
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: if somebody's not holding it on your face, or would

860
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: chloroform act quickly enough to disable him?

861
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 2: You said, it takes a.

862
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 3: Lot, right, at least with what my research showed is

863
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: that chloroform with the amount that you would be inhaling

864
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 3: off of a rag like this, it would take some time,

865
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: and so Rice would be laying there sleeping for some

866
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 3: time before any type of depression caused by the chloroform

867
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 3: would truly kick in. I still question whether or not

868
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 3: there would be sufficient exposure to the chloroform that could

869
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 3: have caused Rice to die from it under this scenario.

870
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 3: The other aspect is chloroform is very strong smelling. It's

871
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: got a kind of this sickly sweet smell. It is

872
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 3: so distinctive, and so if this is even with Rice's

873
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 3: sleep and this rag is just laid on top of him.

874
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: This would be something that I think would naturally wake

875
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: somebody up. You've got this very strong smelling solvent that

876
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 3: you're breathing in, So there may be something more going

877
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: on than this scenario in my estimation at this point.

878
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: So Rice is dead, the doctor is called. The doctor

879
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: says natural causes. He was eighty four, he had indigestion.

880
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: His death certificate said he died of old age and

881
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 1: extreme nervousness, which I've seen on many death certificates, pretty

882
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: much only in the eighteen hundred, so, which to me

883
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: is heart attack or.

884
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: Something to that effect. I mean, is that what you

885
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: would think?

886
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's such an odd term. That's where

887
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 3: kind of getting into the medical parlance of the day

888
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 3: to try to figure out what symptoms were being interpreted

889
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 3: in the final day's, final months of Rice's life that

890
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: this doctor is saying extreme nervousness is a contributing factor.

891
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what that would be. If he got

892
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,959
Speaker 3: into jest for mercury poisoning. It's possible that he did

893
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 3: get enough mercury in a system where he's developed a

894
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 3: level of the shakes in his hands. Generally, mercury when

895
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 3: it starts affecting the nervous system affects the upper extremities

896
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 3: before the lower extremities. And so maybe that somebody is saying,

897
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 3: you know, he's shaking all the time, you know, and

898
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 3: here's your nervousness.

899
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

900
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: The phrase that I had mentioned to you before is

901
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: nervous prostration is what I've written about, which seems like

902
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: extreme nervousness. Nervous prostration is interpreted as extreme exhaustion.

903
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 3: So yeah, the doctor is just basically saying he's eighty four.

904
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 3: He just gave out, you know.

905
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: Okay, So Albert Patrick talks to the undertaker, because Albert

906
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 1: Patrick's in the will, he talks the undertaker. He hands

907
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: him the certificate and says Rice wants to be cremated,

908
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: and the undertaker delivers some terrible news to Albert Patrick,

909
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: which is it takes twenty four hours to heat this

910
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: thing up to cremate someone. Okay, and so now Albert

911
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: Patrick is essentially freaking out, and he says, embolman, put

912
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: the fluid in him right now. Don't even take it,

913
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: just put it in right now. He's trying to corrupt

914
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: the blood. I think is what's happening is that what

915
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: you think?

916
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: Well, he is most certainly trying to make alterations to

917
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 3: the body to cover up these external toxins that have

918
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 3: been put inside Rice's body. But he's relatively naive about things.

919
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 3: But he is, he's thinking on his feet and so

920
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: now he's just trying to contaminate the body as much

921
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 3: as possible before authorities decide or we better check into

922
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 3: this death a little bit more closely.

923
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: So he's being naive slash smart. I'm not sure what

924
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: kind of attorney that is.

925
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 3: This is where you know just enough to get yourself

926
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 3: in trouble.

927
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: So along those lines, Jones and Patrick the next day

928
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: spend much of the day forging checks, forging Rice's signature

929
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: on checks, backdating them, and trying to posit them. Unfortunately,

930
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 1: Jones is in charge of filling out many of the checks,

931
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: and on several of the checks that are supposed to

932
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: be paid to the order of Albert Patrick, he misspells

933
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: Albert's name, and that seems to be an issue because

934
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: I guess William marsh Rice was very meticulous and his banker,

935
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: when he received the check, noticed that he had spelled

936
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: this name wrong, and he starts to investigate, and because

937
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 1: of this one banker, he says, I think something's wrong.

938
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: And then he finds out that William marsh Rice was dead,

939
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: and he calls the investigators, and this whole thing unravels

940
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: for both of them, for the valet and for the attorney.

941
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were trying to do too much. That really

942
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 3: is the bottom line is I think you use the

943
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 3: term the panic set in and so now, well we

944
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 3: better start trying to get money flowing before the spigot

945
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 3: gets turned off during an investigation. But then they're just

946
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 3: leaving a paper trail that is becoming obvious to somebody

947
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: who knows Rice well, going nope, this isn't right. And

948
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 3: now the investigation kicks off. I'm assuming correct.

949
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: So they start putting all of this together. They bring in,

950
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: like you're talking about, forensic document experts who look at

951
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: the signatures, who look at the typography, everything that's happening,

952
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: and says, none of this matches up, and they proceed

953
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,240
Speaker 1: to arrest both of them, Jones and Patrick. Jones says,

954
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: I didn't do any of this. Patrick says, I didn't

955
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: do anything. Nothing happened. The guy died of natural causes

956
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: and there's no way you can prove otherwise. And I

957
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: might be an attorney who tried to wiggle in a

958
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: couple of places, but I'm not a killer.

959
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 2: And he's right.

960
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: He could be a sleazy attorney all he wants, but

961
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: that doesn't make him a murderer. So it's a district

962
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: attorney's job now to prove that Albert Patrick was the

963
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: one who orchestrated this whole thing.

964
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: And this seems like a daunting test to me, does

965
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: it to you?

966
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 3: Well, it could be, you know, but this is where

967
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 3: if you have, you know, a good investigator on the case,

968
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 3: I mean, this is a golden opportunity. You have two

969
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: conspirators who are now turning on each other, and this

970
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 3: is where the interview becomes critical. It's okay, you either

971
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 3: going down or he's going down. You better start talking

972
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 3: about what actually happened and then playing them off of

973
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 3: each other so you can get so much information before

974
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 3: this even gets into a trial.

975
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 2: Who do you think flips? Because one of them does flip.

976
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 3: Jones is the weak link, twenty three year old subservient male,

977
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 3: and Patrick is a sophisticated attorney who's thinking he's smarter

978
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 3: than anybody. So He's going to hold his mud while

979
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 3: Jones is just going to sit there and chirp away.

980
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: You did it, that was it. Yeah, Jones flipped on him.

981
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: Jones was offered full immunity. Can you trust somebody who

982
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: was offered full immunity on the stand, Well you can.

983
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 3: It all depends on who they are, and it's really

984
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:09,399
Speaker 3: comes down to does the jury trust this witness? And

985
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 3: this is where Jones, by providing testimony, he has to

986
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 3: be convincing or the jurors believe him.

987
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 2: So there's two.

988
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: Parts to this trial really. I think one is the

989
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 1: medical testimony. I'll tell you about in a second. The

990
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 1: first part is Jones, who is, to me the definition

991
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 1: of an unreliable witness. He talks about placing the rag

992
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: over Rice, and Rice doesn't move at all. Medical experts

993
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 1: don't think that's likely.

994
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

995
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: He talks about taking the rag after Rice was dead

996
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 1: and throwing it onto a stove and it catches on fire, right,

997
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: and bursts into flames. Not just a rag that sort

998
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: of kind of catches on fire. It's almost like an explosion.

999
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: And then Albert Patrick's attorney said, this is bs. This

1000
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: guy is lying about everything. If he lies about that

1001
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: one thing, how can we trust anything he says? And

1002
00:52:58,360 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: I think that's the line a lot of attorneys of

1003
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: you over the past hundred.

1004
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 3: Years, for sure. That's how you start chipping away at

1005
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 3: the veracity of a witness is you catch them in

1006
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 3: a single and it may just be a minor detail

1007
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: that they got wrong, but then you blow it up

1008
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 3: and then you just taint anything else that they're saying

1009
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: from it. What stands out to me with the chloroform

1010
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 3: and taking a look at its physical properties, it is

1011
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 3: not excessively flammable, So it's something if it was thrown

1012
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 3: on this stove. You know, I do see where that

1013
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 3: rag with the chloroform on it, you may have it

1014
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 3: catch fire to a point. But if he's saying it

1015
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 3: was explosive, I question if it was even chloroform. Maybe

1016
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 3: there was another solvent that was on this rag and

1017
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 3: it wasn't chloroform.

1018
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1019
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 1: The thing I didn't tell you about Jones was that

1020
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: in the middle of all of this, he was jailed.

1021
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: Even though he was given immunity, he was jailed and

1022
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: he tried to take his own life in the middle

1023
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: of all of this. Oh okay, I think it's clear

1024
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 1: that he had some mental health struggles. I think possibly

1025
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: even before this, but this certainly didn't help. Albert Patrick's

1026
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: attorney then turned to the medical testimony, and this is

1027
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 1: the interesting thing. So they did the autopsy, because thank goodness,

1028
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,919
Speaker 1: William Marshreis did not get cremated. They did the autopsy

1029
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: and the medical examiner said everything was actually for an

1030
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: eighty four year old man, was in pretty good shape

1031
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: and the only issue were his lungs. And the lungs

1032
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: were congested and they had sort of kind of a

1033
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: burned out look, as if they had been exposed to

1034
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: a gas or a severe irritant. So the district attorney said,

1035
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: of course, this is what caused it. And what do

1036
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: you think? He said, this was the cause of his death.

1037
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: Was the chloroform?

1038
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 3: Right? Sure? Now, when you say his lungs had a

1039
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 3: burned out appearance, do you have any more details about that?

1040
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: They said, sort of like sores, almost like lesions, But

1041
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: the lungs were incredibly irritated, like it just seemed like

1042
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: almost on the brink of like red marks everywhere and

1043
00:54:58,680 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: just really irritated.

1044
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 2: It is the only description I had.

1045
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 3: Any testimony about inside the mouth or down the esophagus.

1046
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: Now, see this is what stinks, Paul, You're going to

1047
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: learn when we do stories from the nineteen hundreds.

1048
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 2: I can't call it.

1049
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 3: I can't call me no. But this is the part

1050
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 3: of okay. So the limitations at the time, the limitations

1051
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 3: of the autopsy. And you know when I hear lung congestion,

1052
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 3: of course that the natural thought is with the idea

1053
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 3: that chloroform was potentially used in this case, that the

1054
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 3: inhalation of chloroform is what the irritant is that caused

1055
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 3: the issue inside the lungs. However, chloroform and many other substances,

1056
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 3: when ingested orally, when it's absorbed into the body, you

1057
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 3: also can get pulmonary edema or lung congestion. And I

1058
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 3: found like a nineteen thirty three article talking about a

1059
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 3: guy that drank six ounces of chloroform and at autopsy

1060
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 3: his lungs were congested. So this is where now the

1061
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 3: idea of this rag being laid over Rice's mouth for

1062
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 3: a period of time, I wonder more, is it possible

1063
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 3: that Rice was given something to drink that contained chloroform?

1064
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 3: And we see this type of response today. I had

1065
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 3: a tragic case of a teenage boy who I rolled

1066
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 3: out on, who was dad laying face up and he

1067
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 3: had ingested an entire bottle of coff Serupe containing codeine,

1068
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 3: and his lungs you could see it. He was foaming

1069
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 3: at the mouth because of all the pulmonaria edema that

1070
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 3: is now extruding. We see this in these overdose type deaths.

1071
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 3: So the chloroform absent the technology today to be able

1072
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 3: to identify chloroform in the body. I start questioning, well,

1073
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 3: if there was chloroform used, was it in elation versus

1074
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 3: oral ingestion? And at autopsy? Chloroform because it has such

1075
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 3: a distinct odor, pathologists would often be able to smell

1076
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 3: that odor when they open up the body. So that's

1077
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 3: where it's like, did this pathologist note that Did he

1078
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 3: actually pay attention to the oral Did he pay attention

1079
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 3: to the esophagus and the stomach to see? Is there

1080
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 3: the possibility that this was actually something that had been

1081
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 3: fed to rice, maybe in a liquid form, versus this

1082
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 3: rag over his mouth. I just the rag over the mouth,

1083
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 3: Unless somebody with a lot of knowledge comes in a

1084
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 3: suss it's a possibility under these circumstances, I'm just skeptical

1085
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 3: of that.

1086
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems odd and Jones is just unreliable in general.

1087
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: I think now Albert Patrick had an attorney, but mostly

1088
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: he represented himself because he was that kind of an attorney.

1089
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: He wanted to represent himself. And Albert Patrick said, the

1090
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: congestion from the lungs is not chloroformed, because I never

1091
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: told Jones to do that. I had nothing to do

1092
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: with that. It was the embalming fluid, okay. And at

1093
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 1: the time the doctor said that is impossible. The heart

1094
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: valves would not allow embalming fluid through. But now people

1095
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: at medical experts today say it is possible the embalming

1096
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: fluid could have been in the lungs.

1097
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 2: What do you think about that.

1098
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 3: Well, if you have the fluid, the embalming fluid, which

1099
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 3: you know, formaldehyde, methanol and some other chemicals, these of

1100
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 3: course are going to be chemicals that are not kind

1101
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 3: to the lungs. But this is we're having a good pathologist,

1102
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 3: and you know, we don't know because you can determine

1103
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 3: very rapidly is this due to just the embalming process

1104
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 3: or do I have vital reactions occurring because now you

1105
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 3: have living tissue as you know risis, so combing to

1106
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 3: exposure to let's say chloroform, you have inflammation responses. You know.

1107
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 3: They take tissue samples and look at them under the

1108
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 3: microscope to see what types of cells are flowing in

1109
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 3: to the aveoli and everything else to determine am I

1110
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 3: dealing with something that is because the body was exposed

1111
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 3: to something, or am I dealing with a post mortem artifact?

1112
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 3: And these solves the embalming fluid being able to pass

1113
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 3: through into the lungs Right now, I couldn't answer that,

1114
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 3: but that would be my question today to a pathologist

1115
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 3: is okay, did you do enough to be able to

1116
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 3: eliminate the fact that this could be something that happened

1117
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 3: after death?

1118
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: To me, the crux of this case is it is

1119
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: a little bit of a medical mystery. And with the

1120
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: fact that we've got all of these forgeries and this

1121
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 1: attorney who is obviously manipulative and with the intention of stealing,

1122
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: is that enough if we take out the medical mystery

1123
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: of how he died? Is that enough evidence to say

1124
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: Albert Patrick should be executed because that's what would happen.

1125
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: He would be sentencing seeing to the electric chair. Is

1126
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: this enough, if we aren't one hundred percent sure that

1127
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: this is murder, that's the question the jury had.

1128
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, the totality of the evidence, in my opinion, most

1129
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 3: certainly points at Patrick and Jones conspiring to kill Rice,

1130
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 3: and his death was caused at the hands of another.

1131
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 3: This was not a natural death. Now, the actual cause

1132
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 3: of death maybe because of the frailty at eighty four

1133
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 3: years old, everything that was being done to him by

1134
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 3: these two he's succumbed to just you know, as a

1135
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 3: pathologist or the doc said this nervous prostration due to exhaustion,

1136
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 3: but this was something that he wouldn't normally have been

1137
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 3: dealing with. These two people were giving a mercury, giving

1138
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 3: Hi chloroform, doing all this stuff. But I think the

1139
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 3: totality of the circumstances, in my mind, you know, probably

1140
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 3: goes beyond reasonable doubt that they were responsible for his death.

1141
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 3: And it's possible that with Jones's testimony saying well it

1142
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 3: was chloroform and there is really absent the introduction of

1143
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 3: the embalming fluid, there's nothing necessarily contradicting the fact that

1144
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 3: chloroform could have been used. So I think there's sufficient

1145
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 3: cause to convict. But of course, if the only option

1146
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 3: is to execute, that's where it kind of gets into

1147
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 3: where you see more of a stratification of the murder

1148
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 3: laws today. You know, So the jury has an option going, Okay,

1149
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 3: it doesn't rise to this in this case. If they convict,

1150
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 3: there's no question, there's pre planning, there's malice, a foe thought.

1151
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 3: So that's going to be one of those things that

1152
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 3: separates first from second murder, at least in California. What

1153
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: are the special circumstances you know, that would kick it

1154
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 3: up into a death eligible case. So from my perspective,

1155
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 3: I can see where the conundrum would be, does the

1156
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 3: state execute somebody when we can't prove that either one

1157
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 3: of them actually utilized a chemical weapon?

1158
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1159
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 1: To me, it comes down to had these men not

1160
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: been doing what they were doing, giving the mercury, had

1161
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: he just laid down that night and gone to sleep

1162
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: without chloroform on his face or anything else, is it

1163
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 1: likely he would have woken up the next day, probably

1164
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 1: despite being eighty four, because the medical examiner said the

1165
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: rest of his organs were in great shape for a

1166
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: man his age, and Patrick and Jones had been worried

1167
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: that he was going to keep living for years because

1168
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 1: he was in good shape. I guess that's what Bully

1169
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: and Base and Egxell do for you. But the jury

1170
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: agreed with you that there was a sufficient amount of

1171
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: evidence that they were guilty. Okay, And Albert Patrick was

1172
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: sentenced to sing sing to the electric chair, and Charles

1173
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: Jones walked.

1174
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 2: He had total immunity. He left.

1175
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,919
Speaker 1: He ended up about several decades later taking his own

1176
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: life again. I think struggles with mental illness or problems

1177
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: with this case. So flash forward ten years. Albert Patrick

1178
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: spends ten years in prison, and he has a whole

1179
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: team of attorneys working this entire time. His sister very

1180
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: fortuitously married into a wealthy family who believed him, and

1181
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: they appeal after appeal after appeal, and finally they won

1182
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: an appeal and he was commuted from the death penalty

1183
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: from the electric chair to life in prison. And then

1184
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: a couple of years later, the Governor of New York

1185
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 1: pardoned him. Oh wow, he walked out. So the Governor

1186
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 1: of New York said, and a lot of doctors did

1187
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 1: come forward and say, you cannot connect chloroform to this death.

1188
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 1: Will you cannot definitively say it. Yes, this guy is

1189
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: a terrible person and an unscrupulous attorney, but you cannot

1190
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 1: say definitively that he is a murderer. He should have

1191
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 1: never been sent to Sing Sing So that's what the

1192
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: governor said. Now, of course, there's all sorts of rumors

1193
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: that I believe that the family paid off everybody they

1194
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,479
Speaker 1: possibly could to get him out. But he got out

1195
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: and he ended up living a really quiet life in Oklahoma.

1196
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 3: Okay. I wasn't expecting that that's the goal. Paul Hols.

1197
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 3: I thought he went to the electric chair.

1198
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 2: No, he didn't get any of the money.

1199
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: So thank goodness, though, the silver lining on this whole case,

1200
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: And actually I wouldn't call that silver lining. I would

1201
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 1: just say the bright spot of any of this is

1202
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: that the money ended.

1203
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 2: Up going where it was supposed to go.

1204
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: James Baker, the attorney, took the money, figured out the

1205
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: correct will, and used the money for what it was

1206
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,439
Speaker 1: intended to, which is to build one of the most

1207
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 1: wonderful universities in the country in Houston, Texas. So William

1208
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 1: marsh Rice comes away from this there is the legacy of,

1209
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: of course, racism and not wanting to have black students there. Ultimately,

1210
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: he is given back a school that is outstanding that

1211
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 1: almost never happened. It came so close to not happening.

1212
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: The richness of that is incredible.

1213
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that history is just amazing in terms of of

1214
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 3: course I've heard of Rice University, but it's usually within

1215
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 3: the NCAA football setting than anything else. But to know

1216
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 3: that this homicide or this murder trial and all the

1217
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 3: shenanigans that were going on really could have prevented that

1218
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 3: university from existing. That's just where it's so interesting and

1219
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 3: fun to dig into these old case because you learn

1220
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 3: so much, you know, in terms of how things are

1221
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 3: existing today. Well, it's based on this type of backdrop. Well,

1222
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 3: I have to bit. When you first sent me sort

1223
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 3: of just that three sentences of the overview of this case,

1224
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 3: it was like, okay, so we're dealing with a will

1225
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 3: and maybe chloroform. I wasn't exactly sure how this case

1226
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 3: was going to play out and not sure how much

1227
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 3: I could contribute to it, but it was like, oh,

1228
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 3: there's a lot of backstory that really is compelling about well,

1229
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 3: this is what happened, you know, and I think the

1230
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 3: jury got it right.

1231
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited because I loved hearing all of your

1232
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: perspective on all this, because again, that was the whole

1233
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: point of doing this was do we think they got

1234
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: it right? And do we think they got it wrong?

1235
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: And what would we have done differently? So that's exactly

1236
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: what I was hoping to get out of it. And

1237
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 1: my goal is I love twists and turns. I don't

1238
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: like boring, straight shot stories, surprising things, and I like

1239
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 1: to have details and to have characters.

1240
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 2: That we can really come to life.

1241
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 1: And William marsh Rice was not the perfect character, but boy,

1242
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: his life was interesting and it was really fun retelling it.

1243
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: So thank you for that journey, Paul Holes. I can't

1244
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: wait for next week.

1245
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 3: So what I'm gathering is is you're going to be

1246
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 3: surprising me each week with the every.

1247
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 1: Week, Okay, you should be surprised if I don't surprise you,

1248
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: is what I'm what I'm talking about.

1249
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it. This was great, Me too,

1250
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:30,919
Speaker 3: Me too.

1251
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1252
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com,

1253
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones sources.

1254
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1255
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1256
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1257
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryvogel.

1258
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1259
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,919
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kram.

1260
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1261
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1262
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1263
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race of decode the

1264
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available for pre order now

1265
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1266
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: cold Cases is also available now