WEBVTT - Tony Blair 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.720 It's a rubob season right now. It is. We've got 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.559 some in the garden here, lovely. Is it closhed or uncloshed? 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:09.159 I don't ask me that he has. He got a 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:11.920 cover on it to keep it all nice and pink. Yes, 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.200 that's very fancy. It loses its pinkness quite quickly, it does. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:18.040 There's some trick to bringing that back, and I can't 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.720 remember what it is because I'm not a gardener. I 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.520 love to look at the gardens, but I profess any 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.040 expertise in at all. And people love rubob crumbled apple crumble. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.320 That's good too. My mom used to make great apple 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.639 crumbled mine too. This is a little no packed man, 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:36.120 And I'm actually a foodie. I adore food. Oh dear, 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:38.960 you're not very fat at all. You don't look like 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:46.520 a foodie ever. Trust the thin cook. Hello, I'm mini 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.440 driver and welcome to many questions. I've always loved prus questionnaire. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.640 It was originally an eighteenth century parlor game meant to 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.440 reveal an individual's true nature. But with so many questions, 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.840 there wasn't really an opportunity to expand on anything. So 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.959 I took the format of Proof's questionnaire and adapted. What 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.600 I think are seven of the most important questions you 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.600 could ever ask someone. They are when and where were 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.000 you happiest? What is the quality you like least about yourself. 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:22.080 What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you? What 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.720 question would you most like answered, What person, place, or 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.840 experience has shaped you the most? What would be your 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.760 last meal? And can you tell me something in your 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.720 life that has grown out of a personal disaster. The 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.639 more people we ask, the more we begin to see 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.800 what makes us similar and what makes us individual. I've 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.560 gathered a group of really remarkable people who I am 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.120 honored and humbled to have had a chance to engage with. 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:57.000 My guest today is Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.840 for the UK. He is to date the longest serving 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:05.600 Labor prime minister and broken eighteen year marathon of Conservative government. 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.920 When he came to power. He studied law at Oxford 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:13.079 and told me he never intended to go into politics. 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.720 I have to say I was very interested about having 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:20.720 the opportunity to speak to a former world leader, and 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.040 one of the things that really struck me was the 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.800 starting point idea of commitment to service and social progress 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.840 can't help but be altered by the actual machinations of politics. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:35.720 Tony Blair is a Christian by faith, and I very 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:40.399 much enjoyed discussing, amongst other things, the nexus between spirituality 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:49.800 or organized religion and science and reason. Where and when 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.440 were you happiest? So when people ask you whether you're 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.600 happy or not, it can refer to a period or 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.720 it can refer to a moment. The periods of my 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:04.040 life which I were most happy, we're probably in my 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.840 sort of early thirties, as I was really starting in 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.200 politics and beginning of family, and and I had everything 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.360 to kind of look forward to when you're an MP. Yeah, 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.600 I've become an MP. I was kind of climbing the 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.959 political leader. Things were fascinating, but there weren't too pressured. 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.760 You haven't got to the point where the politics started 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.120 to really cut into your life. And we were starting 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.840 a family, so that was great, and you know, that 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.240 was a very happy time in my life. Strangely, this 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.400 last year, because I've been able to spend real time 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.600 in one place, the longest time I've spent in one 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.800 place for decades, it allowed me to focus on the 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.000 work that I do with my institute, which is the 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.800 not profit institute that does work in Africa, the Middle 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.960 East and other places. But even though I've not been 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.160 able to travel there in the same way, you know, 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.400 I found it actually quite a good way of working 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.080 and it's given me some periods of reflection where normally 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.440 I don't get any. So as a period of my life, 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.800 it's not been unhappy. But then I think you can 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.120 define happiest moments of your life and those for me, 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.800 which is probably a bad thing, but they're all about fulfillment. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:09.960 I mean, I could say it's the moment my first 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.960 child was born and my first grandchild, and that's true. 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.240 But when I think of, you know, things that gave 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.919 me an immediate rush of happiness that they're usually around fulfillment, 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:24.720 you know, getting a scholarship to school or getting into university. 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.800 Winning the nomination for my constituency, which is a big moment. Yeah, 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.200 that must have been amazing. That was completely unexpected and 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.720 was the last seat in the country to select a 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:36.880 candidate and they three and never hadn't been selected, I 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.360 would never have been leader in n been Prime minister 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:41.800 in nine. You held that seat for a long time 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.760 as well, because twenty five years Yeah, there's quite a 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.000 long time. But then the particular moments, because with Prime 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.600 Minister the highs and lows, but the highs are very high. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.320 The signing of the Good Friday Agreement on Ireland, the 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.880 winning of the Olympics. So this, this happiness is fulfillment. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.880 But if you want happiness as a period of your 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:05.200 life in which you're experiencing just day to day, the 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:08.000 nearest I would ever get to contentment it would probably 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.000 be those two periods. Really is not When I was Primaris, 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.960 like when people ask you whether you enjoyed being Prime minister, 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.000 I was thinking, it's like asking if do you enjoy 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.040 giving birth? You know, no, not not really, like I 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.720 really loved having a baby. But I think that's actually 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:27.599 an excellent analogy, not having been prime minister by having 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:32.840 given birth. Did you enjoy being on stage? I used 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:34.880 to have a bucket at the side of the stage 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.960 that I would throw up in when I was in 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:42.520 the West End. I was so terrified. There's something great 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:44.760 about it, though. But I'm interested about this premium that 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.920 we put on happiness because I wonder if it becomes 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.640 a catch or and rather like love, it's it's actually 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.160 made up of a lot of other different things. If 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.440 love is made up of I don't know, respect, honesty, 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:03.479 shared idea is communion, community. Because I was happy on 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.240 the stage, but it was also awful. But I think 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.919 that's what's what's interesting about it. But that's why you 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.880 can define happiness as points of fulfillment. So when you 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.520 came off the stage having given a great performance or 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.760 of performance you were satisfied with, that's a form of happiness. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.719 I'm an optimistic person, but I don't think I'm happy 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:28.400 in that kind of relaxed sense of happy. That's so 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.320 funny because I think I'm a happy pessimist. I think 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:36.800 that I'm actually quite pessimistic, but really genuinely often surprised 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.720 about how well things turn out. But I wonder if 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.520 it's also like if it's a privilege from where we're 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.760 born and where we grow up, and that the privileges 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.640 that we have in our life. It's interesting about the 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.640 notion of what you grow out of. Think about that 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.480 a lot and certain friends have had extremely different experiences 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.279 in their life who happiness was really hard for ought, 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.479 and they look at it differently. They look at it 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.280 as this prize in a way that they want despite 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.840 the hardships that they experienced, but that does give them 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.360 a sense of fulfillment. And I think the best thing 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:12.920 in life is to wake up with a sense of 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:16.920 purpose and go to bed counting your blessings. And I 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.920 think you tend to be more happy when that there 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.960 is that purpose. You know, you feel you're not just living, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.680 but you're living for something. And when you you've got 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.800 to the stage where you're able despite all your challenges 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.200 and you're mishaps to say, but I'm in fact blessed. 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.320 Think of all the many blessings that have been bestowed 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:37.600 upon me. And I think one of the things you 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.160 try to do is you get older, is you try 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:45.480 to come to a more spiritually balanced place where you're 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.400 you can accept the things in life that are really hard, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:56.840 um because you appreciate there are so many people who 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:01.520 have it harder and you've in fact been generously gifted 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.840 in many ways. Just the last thing on happiness, because 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.280 it's it's really interesting talking to you about that. Do 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.480 you think that it was something when you were Prime 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.160 Minister that in a way you couldn't expect it in 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.800 any way, shape or form, So it becomes sort of 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.880 collateral damage to the position that you're in that you 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.640 can't really seek happiness when you're governing, like or are 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.600 you trying to seek a greater happiness for a country, 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:28.960 So that sort of fulfills that part of your psyche. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:30.880 You know. The truth of the matter is the responsibility 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.680 is so great and you're taking decisions the whole time 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:38.880 that are extremely difficult, subject to an enormous amount of criticism. 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.760 Now by the way, you know, as my wife always 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.280 used to say to me, look it's pollantry and complain 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.320 about it, you know, and that is actually very sensible attitude. 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.520 But you know, the sense of responsibility and the harshness 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.160 occasionally of the environment. You know, I found it hard 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.600 to be happy. But as I say the word, those 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:01.080 moments because you do have such responsibility where thing actually worked, 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.200 you know, where we were three or four days trying 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.480 to negotiate that good Friday agreement in Ireland and after 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.840 all those years and you actually get it, then that 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.840 is that's something that must have been amazing. There are 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.960 a very few moments though, which, as it were, whether 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:25.679 joy is unalloyed, it's usually accompanied by a heavy downside. 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.079 What quality do you like least about yourself that I'm 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.880 never satisfied that I'm always restless. I used to think 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.320 for a long time that was a strength, and I 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.400 think it's really weakness. Do you think that you've addressed 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:42.640 that with COVID keeping you in one place and that 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.560 restlessness actually being stopped. Do you think that maybe you've 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:51.760 learned to like it? No, No, I haven't learned to 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.360 like it. I'm ambivalent about it because I think that 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.839 to a certain degree, if you have an element of restlessness, 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.320 it keeps you striving, and in the striving you can 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.040 achieve more. But I think it makes you a difficult 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.680 person to live with. I think if you missed dimensions 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:13.880 of life by being constantly restless and in search. I mean, 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.240 it's the quality I've come to accept about myself. But 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.440 whereas I used to think it was a great spur, 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.080 and in some ways it is, I think you should 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.520 be a big and strong enough character to be able 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.079 to achieve without that. Well, it sounds like you did 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.800 quite a lot during COVID. No, I felt that with 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.120 our institute really took it to a new level. So 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.600 I'm very pleased at that. I don't I don't think 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.600 you need to be perpetually unsatisfied in order to succeed. 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.880 And I've subsequently in my life met a lot of 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.640 people who have managed to succeed in their life goals 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.320 by being very focused and determined and hard working and 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.920 apply yourself and all of that is no one I've 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.079 ever met, even if they make it look easy, it's 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.760 never is, but they've managed to do that at the 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.800 same time, as you know, just having a more relaxed 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.920 that tute to life. I know, it's how do you 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:07.000 stoke the fire and keep that forward momentum without I 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.880 think being overrun by that and not being able to focus. 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.920 Maybe it's just the nuance of being alive. The thing 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:14.800 I often wonder when I meet people is, you know, 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.640 is it something natural or is it something that events 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.679 and people's lives have pushed them too. I don't know. 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.320 I think to be able to be calm in the 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.880 face of whatever life brings you is I think that's 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.520 a great quality. Do you think you've cultivated that as 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.040 you've got older. I've tried to, but as I say, 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.880 not really very successfully. Maybe the living is in the trying, 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.360 you know what I mean. Maybe there's no actual arrival point. 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:41.880 But it's like the other thing I always think is 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.240 that is the Greek's always had it right when they 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.680 talked about humorous and nemesis. That's a very interesting aspect 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.920 of life that you should always as well remain rooted 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.640 in a certain degree of humility about your own position, 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:59.920 your own capabilities. Because there's no occasion that I've ever 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.320 come across in any part of my life or the 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.040 life of people I've known, where I have not never 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.360 since has followed uberst. It's interesting. It's a big life 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:26.520 lesson or what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love fear? 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.559 So I thought about this and I thought about it. 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.480 What is its purest form? I mean, I would say 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.280 parent and child is a very obvious answer to give, 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.080 and now I'm a grandparent. It's the same feeling of 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.640 unconditional love. Maybe what you have for your child is 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.000 something I think that is not repliable. I mean, there's 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:50.600 there's nothing that comes near it in its unconditionality, but 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.199 it is to some degree also it's bound up with yourself. 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:59.200 So in its purest form, I would say that the 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.800 love that I have seen when I've seen people who 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:07.920 dedicate their lives to looking after others in really difficult circumstances. 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.160 And I think, for example, of the nuns I met 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:17.520 in Africa looking after HIV AIDS children, many of whom 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.920 at that time would die, but they would care for 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.880 them through, you know, the last years of their life. 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.600 And that love was unconditional but also selfless. I mean, 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:31.320 they didn't have a family relationship, but they were able 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:36.400 to give those children complete and unconditional love, and usually 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.680 in circumstances where their parents have died. And I remember, 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.680 because she and I visited an orphanage where the nuns 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.400 looked after these children. I remember coming away and literally 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.160 weeping afterwards because I just felt there's nothing that could 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:53.560 ever come close to that purity. Is the distillation of love? Then? 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.760 For you, is that in its most unsolid form where 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.000 it's most meaningful. Because you're right, there's a huge difference, 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.440 and yet they're both worthwhile. The love for your children 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.120 and the unconditional love of a nurse for a very 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.360 sick child. Yeah, and the love for a stranger. So 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.800 that is to be able to bestow that love on 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.720 a stranger, I mean, you know, obviously not strange when 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:16.200 you start to look up them, but the fact is 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.920 they're not connected with you by family. They're not friends, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.720 they're not people have done anything for you. I mean 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.840 that is selfless as well as unconditional. One of the 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.520 things I worry about sometimes is whether with the passing 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:34.680 of religious belief, we will lose something of that, you know, 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.440 that selfless love that I think is often found in 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:39.960 people of faith. I don't think faith is going anywhere. 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.280 I hope not, but I think it's difficult. I think 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.480 organized religion is under so much pressure, and religious belief 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.760 is subject to so much cylicism and criticism, as well 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.640 as an inquiry as to whether it's consistent with science. 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.360 I agree. I mean, I think that that's the nexus 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.760 of whatever the new vendor diagram of new physics or 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.400 some sends and religion, and I think it's fascinating and 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.480 interesting to see what that will look like. But maybe 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.400 it also forces us to do a bit more self 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:12.560 inquiry and not be quite so externally structured, but rather 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.840 to find it within yourself. Yes, that's true, but the 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.320 question is whether its best religious faiths will assist you 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.760 in that. I think the question really is whether in 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.840 this century, because I think organized religion will continue to 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:32.080 habits severe problems. Whether it's possible to distill and capture 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.080 the essence of spirituality if organized religion declines, or does 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:41.200 it just become just humanism. My school practiced comparative religion 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.320 at Bedles. Each summer a collective or a person of 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.360 a different faith would come and live at the school 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.320 and they would be available to chat to and to 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.200 talk to at any time. So we had Franciscan monks 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.320 and Buddhist monks, and Catholic nuns and Hasidic Jews like 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.960 it was absolutely fascinating. And what I really is in 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.240 talking to all of them was that that yes, their 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.960 particular form of faith had cultivated the spirituality, but I 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.520 felt so much that it was already there and they 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.720 would be doing it anyway. They would be doing it 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:14.440 on the side of a hill, or in their own 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:18.080 garden or at the butcher's. Well, maybe it's that they 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:23.760 came to that spiritual understanding and enlightenment through their organized religion. 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.040 I think what is interesting is that at a certain point, 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.760 you know, if you study comparative religion, you realize that 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.240 there are certain things that all the faiths have in common. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.600 And the question is, as people apply the force of 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.760 reason and science to organized religion. Does it just obliterate 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.600 organized religion or does organized religion adjust and find its place, 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.920 Because in the end, what organized religion should be is 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:54.480 a gateway to greater spiritual understanding and understanding or your 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.160 own self. So do you believe the latter. Do you 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:01.080 believe that it's possible for organized religion to shape shift 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:05.199 into accommodate so science and reason. I'm not sure. I 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.600 think it's possible. I think religious faith can go in 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.600 two directions. It can either go in the direction of 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.520 reaching out across the boundaries of faith in the belief 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.920 that there are these things in common. Or it can 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.160 go for what I would call in political terms, your 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.199 core votes strategy. In other words, you turn in in 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.879 yourself and you you become a sort of fundamentalist construct. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.560 Everything has a shadow, even well, particularly the really beautiful things. 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.240 Maybe that always has to be there so that you 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.600 keep choosing it, You keep choosing the light, you keep 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.960 choosing the good stuff. Yes, as people learn more about 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.879 different religious faces as well, I think they mean, certainly 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.439 this has happened to me. I'm a practicing Christian, but 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.080 I go to Israel a lot and so I see 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.880 a lot of people of the Jewish faith, obviously because 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.520 of the work I do of the Muslim faith, to Hinduism, Buddhism. 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.800 I think the question all main religious face struggle with 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:03.680 the day is how do they separate the essence of 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.240 that faith and how it teaches you to live a 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:10.680 life from the doctrine and the practice which has grown 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.720 up in particular cultures in particular ways. That often serves 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:19.080 as a barrier to understanding, certainly identity politics in America. 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.280 For there to be common ground in a way, it's 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.960 really tricky. But I'm not a fan of the identity politics. 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.760 You know, we just watched it play out in real 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.119 time of who is a fan of identity politics. But 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:32.240 I do hope that religion can I like the word 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:36.439 embrace because that has felt the fundament of of faith, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:41.359 that it can embrace an evolution, which might be counterintuitive, 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.239 but it was going to happen, I think in the end, 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:53.119 otherwise it won't, it won't connect, it won't survive. So 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.840 is there something in your life that has grown out 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.080 of a personal disaster? I don't. I'm not shimpol of 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.760 think so I can really everybody in my personal life. 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.520 I think when I was young and my father became 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.240 very seriously ill when I was ten years old, more 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.920 or less ended his career, and you know, he had 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.680 to be looked after by my mother for several years, 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.080 and then my mother died when I was quite young. 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.320 I think those are the things that probably set my 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.160 life on a different course. Well, I think the rest 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:28.520 of your life emerging after an incredibly painful start, is 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:33.600 something growing out of that hard I mean, no no doubt, 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.800 conflict creates action. Yeah, I think what it did for 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:41.280 me was create a sense at a very early age 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.720 that you couldn't take anything for granted. I mean, it 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.760 may be that that is the only kind of upside 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.680 of that restless spirit fault that I've talked about earlier 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.840 in politics and adversity. You know, I started supremely popular 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.720 as Prime Minister, and then you know, obviously post nine 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:04.919 eleven and the Art War and all of that, it 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.840 was very difficult for me to come to terms with 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.959 the fact that that you know, I can say I 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:14.719 thought I was doing the right thing, but you know 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.160 that the unpopularity that comes then with a decision like that, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.560 you then come to terms with the fact that you're 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:27.480 given that enormous responsibility and there is a sort of 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.760 crushing element about it, and you've got to be prepared 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.959 then to to live with that. If you're looking at 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.280 it from the point of view as someone who gets 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.400 to the very top in a in a profession, there 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.120 are things that leaves you with a mark afterwards that 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:43.600 you will live with for the rest of your life, 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.199 and that's coming to terms with that is also something 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.679 that is beneficial. Well. I think it's exactly what you 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.040 spoke about humility of maybe seeing the panopoly of our 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:55.880 entire life and that those moments that have the spotlight 0:20:56.040 --> 0:21:00.560 thrown onto them, that we live around them. And obviously 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.400 I can't speak to what that is of making decisions 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.800 that affect people or affected people on such a huge level, 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:09.840 but I think that's why it's so interesting to talk 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.399 to so many different types of people, because we're human 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:15.199 and the choices that we make are the choices that 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.160 we make. I think it's interesting what you said about 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.879 belief as well, and going into politics. You have to 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.200 have belief, you have to choose a path. One thing 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.360 that I did learn about politics, so I think it's 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.200 an interesting lesson in life is that if you calculate 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.320 too much, you miscalculate, and ias when you're looking at 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:32.919 the way your life is going to go in the future, 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:39.960 it's often better to follow your instinct, keep relatively true 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.840 to yourself, because if you're always trying to calculate your 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.919 next movement in that very narrow way, you often end 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.040 up failing because the world changes in the way you 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.199 didn't anticipate. It's so true. I work very briefly with 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.639 Robert Almond on and commercial for something once, and I 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.600 remember at lunch had one of the best conversations I've 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:02.640 ever had anyone, where he said that you know, your 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.480 life and your decision and your belief and your commitment 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:07.960 to what it is you're doing, is this straight line 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:12.040 and the public opinion and zeitgeist and all these other 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.960 things kind of bisect and zig zag that straight line 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.679 your entire life. And you know, he must have been 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.359 eighty when we we've made that commercial, And he said, 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:26.560 never once in following the zig zag did anything really 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.919 productive happen except my realizing that I should really just 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.920 don't follow the zeit guys, just commit commit to your line. Yeah, 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.800 I'm sure that I think that's for me. I would 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.119 never have become leader of the Labor Party if I 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:46.040 if I'd simply calculated, because I definitely did not follow 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:50.040 the traditional path to leadership. I was way out on 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.800 the limit points and that looked like it was a 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:57.320 fatal flaw, but it turned up to be. Then the 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:00.359 leadership question came up when John Smith was the previous 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.520 leader of the Labor Party. Treasity did, and the leadership 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:07.159