1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: It's a rubob season right now. It is. We've got 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,559 Speaker 1: some in the garden here, lovely. Is it closhed or uncloshed? 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 1: I don't ask me that he has. He got a 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: cover on it to keep it all nice and pink. Yes, 5 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: that's very fancy. It loses its pinkness quite quickly, it does. 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: There's some trick to bringing that back, and I can't 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: remember what it is because I'm not a gardener. I 8 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: love to look at the gardens, but I profess any 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: expertise in at all. And people love rubob crumbled apple crumble. 10 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: That's good too. My mom used to make great apple 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: crumbled mine too. This is a little no packed man, 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: And I'm actually a foodie. I adore food. Oh dear, 13 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: you're not very fat at all. You don't look like 14 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: a foodie ever. Trust the thin cook. Hello, I'm mini 15 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: driver and welcome to many questions. I've always loved prus questionnaire. 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: It was originally an eighteenth century parlor game meant to 17 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: reveal an individual's true nature. But with so many questions, 18 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: there wasn't really an opportunity to expand on anything. So 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: I took the format of Proof's questionnaire and adapted. What 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: I think are seven of the most important questions you 21 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: could ever ask someone. They are when and where were 22 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: you happiest? What is the quality you like least about yourself. 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you? What 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: question would you most like answered, What person, place, or 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: experience has shaped you the most? What would be your 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: last meal? And can you tell me something in your 27 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: life that has grown out of a personal disaster. The 28 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,639 Speaker 1: more people we ask, the more we begin to see 29 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: what makes us similar and what makes us individual. I've 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: gathered a group of really remarkable people who I am 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: honored and humbled to have had a chance to engage with. 32 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: My guest today is Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister 33 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: for the UK. He is to date the longest serving 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: Labor prime minister and broken eighteen year marathon of Conservative government. 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: When he came to power. He studied law at Oxford 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: and told me he never intended to go into politics. 37 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: I have to say I was very interested about having 38 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: the opportunity to speak to a former world leader, and 39 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that really struck me was the 40 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: starting point idea of commitment to service and social progress 41 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: can't help but be altered by the actual machinations of politics. 42 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: Tony Blair is a Christian by faith, and I very 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 1: much enjoyed discussing, amongst other things, the nexus between spirituality 44 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: or organized religion and science and reason. Where and when 45 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: were you happiest? So when people ask you whether you're 46 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: happy or not, it can refer to a period or 47 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: it can refer to a moment. The periods of my 48 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: life which I were most happy, we're probably in my 49 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: sort of early thirties, as I was really starting in 50 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: politics and beginning of family, and and I had everything 51 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: to kind of look forward to when you're an MP. Yeah, 52 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: I've become an MP. I was kind of climbing the 53 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: political leader. Things were fascinating, but there weren't too pressured. 54 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: You haven't got to the point where the politics started 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: to really cut into your life. And we were starting 56 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: a family, so that was great, and you know, that 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: was a very happy time in my life. Strangely, this 58 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: last year, because I've been able to spend real time 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: in one place, the longest time I've spent in one 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: place for decades, it allowed me to focus on the 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: work that I do with my institute, which is the 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: not profit institute that does work in Africa, the Middle 63 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: East and other places. But even though I've not been 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: able to travel there in the same way, you know, 65 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: I found it actually quite a good way of working 66 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: and it's given me some periods of reflection where normally 67 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: I don't get any. So as a period of my life, 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: it's not been unhappy. But then I think you can 69 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: define happiest moments of your life and those for me, 70 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: which is probably a bad thing, but they're all about fulfillment. 71 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I could say it's the moment my first 72 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: child was born and my first grandchild, and that's true. 73 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: But when I think of, you know, things that gave 74 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: me an immediate rush of happiness that they're usually around fulfillment, 75 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, getting a scholarship to school or getting into university. 76 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: Winning the nomination for my constituency, which is a big moment. Yeah, 77 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: that must have been amazing. That was completely unexpected and 78 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: was the last seat in the country to select a 79 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: candidate and they three and never hadn't been selected, I 80 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: would never have been leader in n been Prime minister 81 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: in nine. You held that seat for a long time 82 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: as well, because twenty five years Yeah, there's quite a 83 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: long time. But then the particular moments, because with Prime 84 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: Minister the highs and lows, but the highs are very high. 85 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: The signing of the Good Friday Agreement on Ireland, the 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: winning of the Olympics. So this, this happiness is fulfillment. 87 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: But if you want happiness as a period of your 88 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: life in which you're experiencing just day to day, the 89 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: nearest I would ever get to contentment it would probably 90 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: be those two periods. Really is not When I was Primaris, 91 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: like when people ask you whether you enjoyed being Prime minister, 92 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: I was thinking, it's like asking if do you enjoy 93 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: giving birth? You know, no, not not really, like I 94 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: really loved having a baby. But I think that's actually 95 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: an excellent analogy, not having been prime minister by having 96 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: given birth. Did you enjoy being on stage? I used 97 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: to have a bucket at the side of the stage 98 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: that I would throw up in when I was in 99 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: the West End. I was so terrified. There's something great 100 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: about it, though. But I'm interested about this premium that 101 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: we put on happiness because I wonder if it becomes 102 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: a catch or and rather like love, it's it's actually 103 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: made up of a lot of other different things. If 104 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: love is made up of I don't know, respect, honesty, 105 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: shared idea is communion, community. Because I was happy on 106 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: the stage, but it was also awful. But I think 107 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: that's what's what's interesting about it. But that's why you 108 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: can define happiness as points of fulfillment. So when you 109 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: came off the stage having given a great performance or 110 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: of performance you were satisfied with, that's a form of happiness. 111 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: I'm an optimistic person, but I don't think I'm happy 112 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: in that kind of relaxed sense of happy. That's so 113 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: funny because I think I'm a happy pessimist. I think 114 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: that I'm actually quite pessimistic, but really genuinely often surprised 115 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: about how well things turn out. But I wonder if 116 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: it's also like if it's a privilege from where we're 117 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: born and where we grow up, and that the privileges 118 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: that we have in our life. It's interesting about the 119 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: notion of what you grow out of. Think about that 120 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: a lot and certain friends have had extremely different experiences 121 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: in their life who happiness was really hard for ought, 122 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: and they look at it differently. They look at it 123 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: as this prize in a way that they want despite 124 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: the hardships that they experienced, but that does give them 125 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: a sense of fulfillment. And I think the best thing 126 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: in life is to wake up with a sense of 127 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: purpose and go to bed counting your blessings. And I 128 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: think you tend to be more happy when that there 129 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: is that purpose. You know, you feel you're not just living, 130 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: but you're living for something. And when you you've got 131 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: to the stage where you're able despite all your challenges 132 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: and you're mishaps to say, but I'm in fact blessed. 133 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: Think of all the many blessings that have been bestowed 134 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: upon me. And I think one of the things you 135 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: try to do is you get older, is you try 136 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: to come to a more spiritually balanced place where you're 137 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: you can accept the things in life that are really hard, 138 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: um because you appreciate there are so many people who 139 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: have it harder and you've in fact been generously gifted 140 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: in many ways. Just the last thing on happiness, because 141 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: it's it's really interesting talking to you about that. Do 142 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: you think that it was something when you were Prime 143 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: Minister that in a way you couldn't expect it in 144 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: any way, shape or form, So it becomes sort of 145 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: collateral damage to the position that you're in that you 146 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: can't really seek happiness when you're governing, like or are 147 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: you trying to seek a greater happiness for a country, 148 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: So that sort of fulfills that part of your psyche. 149 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: You know. The truth of the matter is the responsibility 150 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: is so great and you're taking decisions the whole time 151 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: that are extremely difficult, subject to an enormous amount of criticism. 152 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: Now by the way, you know, as my wife always 153 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: used to say to me, look it's pollantry and complain 154 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: about it, you know, and that is actually very sensible attitude. 155 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: But you know, the sense of responsibility and the harshness 156 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: occasionally of the environment. You know, I found it hard 157 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: to be happy. But as I say the word, those 158 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: moments because you do have such responsibility where thing actually worked, 159 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, where we were three or four days trying 160 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: to negotiate that good Friday agreement in Ireland and after 161 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: all those years and you actually get it, then that 162 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: is that's something that must have been amazing. There are 163 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: a very few moments though, which, as it were, whether 164 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: joy is unalloyed, it's usually accompanied by a heavy downside. 165 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: What quality do you like least about yourself that I'm 166 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: never satisfied that I'm always restless. I used to think 167 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: for a long time that was a strength, and I 168 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: think it's really weakness. Do you think that you've addressed 169 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: that with COVID keeping you in one place and that 170 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: restlessness actually being stopped. Do you think that maybe you've 171 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: learned to like it? No, No, I haven't learned to 172 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: like it. I'm ambivalent about it because I think that 173 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 1: to a certain degree, if you have an element of restlessness, 174 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: it keeps you striving, and in the striving you can 175 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: achieve more. But I think it makes you a difficult 176 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: person to live with. I think if you missed dimensions 177 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: of life by being constantly restless and in search. I mean, 178 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: it's the quality I've come to accept about myself. But 179 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: whereas I used to think it was a great spur, 180 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: and in some ways it is, I think you should 181 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: be a big and strong enough character to be able 182 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: to achieve without that. Well, it sounds like you did 183 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: quite a lot during COVID. No, I felt that with 184 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: our institute really took it to a new level. So 185 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm very pleased at that. I don't I don't think 186 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: you need to be perpetually unsatisfied in order to succeed. 187 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: And I've subsequently in my life met a lot of 188 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: people who have managed to succeed in their life goals 189 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: by being very focused and determined and hard working and 190 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: apply yourself and all of that is no one I've 191 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: ever met, even if they make it look easy, it's 192 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: never is, but they've managed to do that at the 193 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: same time, as you know, just having a more relaxed 194 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: that tute to life. I know, it's how do you 195 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: stoke the fire and keep that forward momentum without I 196 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: think being overrun by that and not being able to focus. 197 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just the nuance of being alive. The thing 198 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: I often wonder when I meet people is, you know, 199 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: is it something natural or is it something that events 200 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: and people's lives have pushed them too. I don't know. 201 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: I think to be able to be calm in the 202 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: face of whatever life brings you is I think that's 203 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: a great quality. Do you think you've cultivated that as 204 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: you've got older. I've tried to, but as I say, 205 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: not really very successfully. Maybe the living is in the trying, 206 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Maybe there's no actual arrival point. 207 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: But it's like the other thing I always think is 208 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: that is the Greek's always had it right when they 209 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: talked about humorous and nemesis. That's a very interesting aspect 210 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: of life that you should always as well remain rooted 211 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: in a certain degree of humility about your own position, 212 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: your own capabilities. Because there's no occasion that I've ever 213 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: come across in any part of my life or the 214 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: life of people I've known, where I have not never 215 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: since has followed uberst. It's interesting. It's a big life 216 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: lesson or what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love fear? 217 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: So I thought about this and I thought about it. 218 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: What is its purest form? I mean, I would say 219 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: parent and child is a very obvious answer to give, 220 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: and now I'm a grandparent. It's the same feeling of 221 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: unconditional love. Maybe what you have for your child is 222 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: something I think that is not repliable. I mean, there's 223 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: there's nothing that comes near it in its unconditionality, but 224 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: it is to some degree also it's bound up with yourself. 225 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: So in its purest form, I would say that the 226 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: love that I have seen when I've seen people who 227 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: dedicate their lives to looking after others in really difficult circumstances. 228 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: And I think, for example, of the nuns I met 229 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: in Africa looking after HIV AIDS children, many of whom 230 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: at that time would die, but they would care for 231 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: them through, you know, the last years of their life. 232 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: And that love was unconditional but also selfless. I mean, 233 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: they didn't have a family relationship, but they were able 234 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: to give those children complete and unconditional love, and usually 235 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: in circumstances where their parents have died. And I remember, 236 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: because she and I visited an orphanage where the nuns 237 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: looked after these children. I remember coming away and literally 238 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: weeping afterwards because I just felt there's nothing that could 239 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: ever come close to that purity. Is the distillation of love? Then? 240 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: For you, is that in its most unsolid form where 241 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: it's most meaningful. Because you're right, there's a huge difference, 242 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: and yet they're both worthwhile. The love for your children 243 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: and the unconditional love of a nurse for a very 244 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: sick child. Yeah, and the love for a stranger. So 245 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: that is to be able to bestow that love on 246 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: a stranger, I mean, you know, obviously not strange when 247 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: you start to look up them, but the fact is 248 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: they're not connected with you by family. They're not friends, 249 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: they're not people have done anything for you. I mean 250 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: that is selfless as well as unconditional. One of the 251 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: things I worry about sometimes is whether with the passing 252 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: of religious belief, we will lose something of that, you know, 253 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: that selfless love that I think is often found in 254 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: people of faith. I don't think faith is going anywhere. 255 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: I hope not, but I think it's difficult. I think 256 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: organized religion is under so much pressure, and religious belief 257 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: is subject to so much cylicism and criticism, as well 258 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: as an inquiry as to whether it's consistent with science. 259 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, I think that that's the nexus 260 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: of whatever the new vendor diagram of new physics or 261 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: some sends and religion, and I think it's fascinating and 262 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: interesting to see what that will look like. But maybe 263 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: it also forces us to do a bit more self 264 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: inquiry and not be quite so externally structured, but rather 265 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: to find it within yourself. Yes, that's true, but the 266 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: question is whether its best religious faiths will assist you 267 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: in that. I think the question really is whether in 268 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: this century, because I think organized religion will continue to 269 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: habits severe problems. Whether it's possible to distill and capture 270 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: the essence of spirituality if organized religion declines, or does 271 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: it just become just humanism. My school practiced comparative religion 272 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: at Bedles. Each summer a collective or a person of 273 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: a different faith would come and live at the school 274 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: and they would be available to chat to and to 275 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: talk to at any time. So we had Franciscan monks 276 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: and Buddhist monks, and Catholic nuns and Hasidic Jews like 277 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: it was absolutely fascinating. And what I really is in 278 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: talking to all of them was that that yes, their 279 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: particular form of faith had cultivated the spirituality, but I 280 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: felt so much that it was already there and they 281 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: would be doing it anyway. They would be doing it 282 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: on the side of a hill, or in their own 283 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: garden or at the butcher's. Well, maybe it's that they 284 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: came to that spiritual understanding and enlightenment through their organized religion. 285 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: I think what is interesting is that at a certain point, 286 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, if you study comparative religion, you realize that 287 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: there are certain things that all the faiths have in common. 288 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: And the question is, as people apply the force of 289 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: reason and science to organized religion. Does it just obliterate 290 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: organized religion or does organized religion adjust and find its place, 291 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: Because in the end, what organized religion should be is 292 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: a gateway to greater spiritual understanding and understanding or your 293 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: own self. So do you believe the latter. Do you 294 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: believe that it's possible for organized religion to shape shift 295 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: into accommodate so science and reason. I'm not sure. I 296 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: think it's possible. I think religious faith can go in 297 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: two directions. It can either go in the direction of 298 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: reaching out across the boundaries of faith in the belief 299 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: that there are these things in common. Or it can 300 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: go for what I would call in political terms, your 301 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: core votes strategy. In other words, you turn in in 302 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: yourself and you you become a sort of fundamentalist construct. 303 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: Everything has a shadow, even well, particularly the really beautiful things. 304 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: Maybe that always has to be there so that you 305 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: keep choosing it, You keep choosing the light, you keep 306 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: choosing the good stuff. Yes, as people learn more about 307 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: different religious faces as well, I think they mean, certainly 308 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: this has happened to me. I'm a practicing Christian, but 309 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: I go to Israel a lot and so I see 310 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people of the Jewish faith, obviously because 311 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: of the work I do of the Muslim faith, to Hinduism, Buddhism. 312 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: I think the question all main religious face struggle with 313 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: the day is how do they separate the essence of 314 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: that faith and how it teaches you to live a 315 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: life from the doctrine and the practice which has grown 316 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: up in particular cultures in particular ways. That often serves 317 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: as a barrier to understanding, certainly identity politics in America. 318 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: For there to be common ground in a way, it's 319 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: really tricky. But I'm not a fan of the identity politics. 320 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: You know, we just watched it play out in real 321 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: time of who is a fan of identity politics. But 322 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: I do hope that religion can I like the word 323 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: embrace because that has felt the fundament of of faith, 324 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: that it can embrace an evolution, which might be counterintuitive, 325 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,239 Speaker 1: but it was going to happen, I think in the end, 326 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: otherwise it won't, it won't connect, it won't survive. So 327 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: is there something in your life that has grown out 328 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: of a personal disaster? I don't. I'm not shimpol of 329 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: think so I can really everybody in my personal life. 330 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: I think when I was young and my father became 331 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: very seriously ill when I was ten years old, more 332 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: or less ended his career, and you know, he had 333 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: to be looked after by my mother for several years, 334 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: and then my mother died when I was quite young. 335 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: I think those are the things that probably set my 336 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: life on a different course. Well, I think the rest 337 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: of your life emerging after an incredibly painful start, is 338 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: something growing out of that hard I mean, no no doubt, 339 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: conflict creates action. Yeah, I think what it did for 340 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: me was create a sense at a very early age 341 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: that you couldn't take anything for granted. I mean, it 342 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: may be that that is the only kind of upside 343 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: of that restless spirit fault that I've talked about earlier 344 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: in politics and adversity. You know, I started supremely popular 345 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: as Prime Minister, and then you know, obviously post nine 346 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: eleven and the Art War and all of that, it 347 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: was very difficult for me to come to terms with 348 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,959 Speaker 1: the fact that that you know, I can say I 349 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 1: thought I was doing the right thing, but you know 350 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: that the unpopularity that comes then with a decision like that, 351 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: you then come to terms with the fact that you're 352 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: given that enormous responsibility and there is a sort of 353 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: crushing element about it, and you've got to be prepared 354 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,959 Speaker 1: then to to live with that. If you're looking at 355 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: it from the point of view as someone who gets 356 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: to the very top in a in a profession, there 357 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: are things that leaves you with a mark afterwards that 358 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: you will live with for the rest of your life, 359 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: and that's coming to terms with that is also something 360 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: that is beneficial. Well. I think it's exactly what you 361 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: spoke about humility of maybe seeing the panopoly of our 362 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: entire life and that those moments that have the spotlight 363 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: thrown onto them, that we live around them. And obviously 364 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: I can't speak to what that is of making decisions 365 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: that affect people or affected people on such a huge level, 366 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: but I think that's why it's so interesting to talk 367 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: to so many different types of people, because we're human 368 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: and the choices that we make are the choices that 369 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: we make. I think it's interesting what you said about 370 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: belief as well, and going into politics. You have to 371 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: have belief, you have to choose a path. One thing 372 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: that I did learn about politics, so I think it's 373 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: an interesting lesson in life is that if you calculate 374 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: too much, you miscalculate, and ias when you're looking at 375 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: the way your life is going to go in the future, 376 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: it's often better to follow your instinct, keep relatively true 377 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: to yourself, because if you're always trying to calculate your 378 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: next movement in that very narrow way, you often end 379 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: up failing because the world changes in the way you 380 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: didn't anticipate. It's so true. I work very briefly with 381 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: Robert Almond on and commercial for something once, and I 382 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: remember at lunch had one of the best conversations I've 383 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: ever had anyone, where he said that you know, your 384 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: life and your decision and your belief and your commitment 385 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: to what it is you're doing, is this straight line 386 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: and the public opinion and zeitgeist and all these other 387 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: things kind of bisect and zig zag that straight line 388 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: your entire life. And you know, he must have been 389 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: eighty when we we've made that commercial, And he said, 390 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: never once in following the zig zag did anything really 391 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: productive happen except my realizing that I should really just 392 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: don't follow the zeit guys, just commit commit to your line. Yeah, 393 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure that I think that's for me. I would 394 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: never have become leader of the Labor Party if I 395 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: if I'd simply calculated, because I definitely did not follow 396 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: the traditional path to leadership. I was way out on 397 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: the limit points and that looked like it was a 398 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: fatal flaw, but it turned up to be. Then the 399 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: leadership question came up when John Smith was the previous 400 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: leader of the Labor Party. Treasity did, and the leadership 401 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: of the Labor Party came up after John's death. It 402 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: was then suddenly I was the right person, the right place, 403 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: right time. It's amazing, It's amazing. So this is a 404 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: this is a broad question, but what person, place, or 405 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: experience most altered your life? And I'm going to say 406 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: apart from becoming Prime Minister, because it's too it's too 407 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: easy when you have such an extraordinarily rarefied experience, probably 408 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: meeting someone who became my mentor at university who was 409 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: actually a reverend priest, a guy called Peter Thompson, who 410 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 1: was an Australian and who was a remarkable character and teacher, 411 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: and he changed the direction of my life because, first 412 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: of all, before I met him, I was an interest 413 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: in politics. Secondly, I didn't really have any ambition to 414 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: do anything in the world as it were, as opposed 415 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: to become a lawyer or settle down or whatever. And 416 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: he put my life on a different path by showing 417 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: me really that unless you lived your life with some 418 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: sense of obligation to try and do your best do 419 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: good in the world, and it wasn't falling short of 420 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: what you should be. Do you think it's a confluence 421 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: of sensing something in somebody else that you speak to 422 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: that a mentor see something in their mentee and speak 423 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: to that part of them before they've perhaps even seen 424 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: it themselves. Or is it them? Is it them just 425 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: sharing knowledge that they've they've paid attention to in the 426 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: world around because they've been around longer than we have. Like, 427 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: do you think that he saw something or do you 428 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: think that it's what he was saying through his observances 429 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: ignited something in new Yeah, so it's interesting. Good question. 430 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: I actually have asked myself that question quite off. I 431 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: don't really know the answer. I mean, I think he 432 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: saw something that he felt should be developed maybe, and 433 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: he had this impact on a lot of the people 434 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: around me. You know, I had a strange time at 435 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: university because I never felt I really made the most 436 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: of my time at university in many ways for someone 437 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: who ended up as Prime Minister. I think the only 438 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: time I ever went to the Oxford Union was once 439 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: to listen to a speech by Michael Heseltine. Bizarrely, Oh 440 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: my god, that's like the worst, that's the worst one. 441 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: It was quite interesting. Actually, I was not interested at 442 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: all in politics. I was actually trying to get close 443 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: to a particular girl at the time because I wasn't 444 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: interested in politics at all at the time. What did 445 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: you read at university? Law? I mean I had a 446 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: very good tutor, of very good tutors and everything, but 447 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: I think it law wasn't really a subject for me 448 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: at university. I enjoyed it much more when I practiced it. 449 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: I would even better properly with history. But I didn't 450 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: go to the Oxford Union. I didn't go on on 451 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: stage or anything. But I ended up mixing with influential 452 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: people on me at university. Peter Thompson was the sort 453 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: of focal point of all of them. But when I 454 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: look back now, I think maybe it all to my 455 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: life in another way as well, which is that I 456 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: became aware that there was a world beyond my own society, 457 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: my own country, my own way of life, and that 458 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: gave me always a broader perspective. It must be very 459 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: interesting to see the position of prime minister as one 460 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: of service that requires a power graph, it requires choose me, 461 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: a pick me, and then the notion of service and 462 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: governing one would hope kicks in, but they seem to 463 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: be diametrically opposed. How one gets to be prime minister 464 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: and then actually governing. Oh there's my dog um by 465 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: where your question is a great question. So the thing 466 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: that people find hard to understand about politicians, and you know, 467 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: I never felt myself like a politician. I didn't feel 468 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: different from anyone else. It's just that the environment in 469 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: which you're in you realize at a certain point in 470 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: time there's a bit of it that is noble and 471 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: there's a bit of it that's skullduggery. And politics as 472 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: all these things. Now, my theory of this is that 473 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: very few people ever get to the top and politics 474 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: don't mind being prime minister unless they're driven by belief, 475 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: you know, and you start in politics with belief. The 476 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: trouble is you're always trying to implement those beliefs in 477 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: this environment and which all these other ignoble elements are present. 478 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: And if you believe in what you're trying to do, 479 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: you can't just pretend in some elevated way, in some 480 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: saintly way, because otherwise you just get devoured, right, so, 481 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: and then you never get to do the things you 482 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: want to do. This is why usually art portrays politics 483 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: is just a dark thing. But in fact, most politicians 484 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: that I've ever come across go into politics wanting to 485 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: do good, and obviously oftentimes they will fall short. But 486 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: it's not that they cease wanting to do good. It's 487 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: the competitive nature of it and the way that what 488 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: in normal workplaces would be sort of relatively low key 489 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: psychological dramas in politics is played out under the full 490 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: glare of global stage. Yeah, and the choices are difficult, 491 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: you know. I always say to people, the time you 492 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: should trust the politician most is when they're telling you 493 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: what you least want to hear. But actually that's not 494 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: how most people view politics. They trust what they do 495 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: want to hear. But that's the easy thing to do 496 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: with politics. The hard thing is when you're particularly to 497 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: your own supporters saying no, I can't do that, it's 498 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: not right. And when you when you take decisions, when 499 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 1: you decide, you divide, when you decide you to Yeah, yeah, 500 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: I really can't thank you enough. I'm just so so 501 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: interesting talking to you. Displeasure all the very best, Thank 502 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: you so much, good Bye. See Tony Blair's Institute for 503 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: Global Change hopes, among other things, to offer in an 504 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: advisory capacity, practical solutions to the challenges the world faces. 505 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: Mini Questions is hosted and written by me Mini Driver, 506 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: supervising producer Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. 507 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: Original music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by 508 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman, Executive produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks 509 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: to Jim Nikolay, Will Pearson, Addison, No Day, Lisa Castella 510 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: and Unique Oppenheim, A W. K here Day, La Pescador, 511 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg, and for constantly solicited tech support, 512 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: Henry Driver, M