WEBVTT - Zichen Wang's Exit Interview From America 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:14.000 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.320 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:23.800 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Allaway. 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.560 Tracy, we're recording this June fifth. President she Shinping and 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:29.000 President Trump just held a phone call. 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:30.560 Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:31.640 for that conversation? 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:33.760 I would. I don't know what that means. 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.440 Markets moved on it. I'm always surprised how hard it 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:38.280 is to set up phone, just pick up the phone, 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.320 But I'm always at surprised that these are like bigger news. 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.959 It should be noted that this was reported first by 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.960 the Shinwan News agency out of China, and there was 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:52.480 a headline that the news agency specified that the phone 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.200 call was at Trump's request. They made a point of saying. 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:57.600 That I still have this image of Trump sitting in 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.200 the Oval office by the phone, just like twittally his 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.440 thumbs waiting for shehian Ping to call, like hoping is 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.000 he gonna call me? Should I wait two days? Should 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.399 I wait three days before responding that kind of thing. 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.920 There was an Ultra Journal article from a few weeks 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.400 ago which made the observation which I had not realized 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.160 outside of the September eleventh terrorist attacks, there's never been 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.800 a contact between the US and China that was initiated 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.520 by China, which I hadn't realized before. I assume it's true. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.480 So Sheishan Ping is sitting in his office twiddling waiting 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:29.160 for the Trump. 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.160 Yeah, okay, and then he decided, but he decides to 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.880 either take the call anyway. All of this sort of 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:35.640 speaks that to the fact, you know, we sort of 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.600 confused by all this, and there's still just so much 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.320 that I think Americans in particular, but I'm sure it 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.080 goes to both directions, like genuinely don't understand about the 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.200 other country. And given a time of increased tension obviously 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.680 the trade war heightened geopolitical concerns, it's not great. I 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.640 think it would be better even if we sort of 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.480 accept the premise of there is the very intense competition 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.360 that the two countries and the populations and the governments 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.680 and the people going to governments just know more about 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:03.240 how they work. 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:04.200 Absolutely. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.040 Have you ever read an English translation of the way 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:13.600 China academics write and talk about American society and American politics? 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:14.280 I should read this. 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:16.120 It's really really interesting. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:17.400 Should send me some links? 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.760 Yeah, okay, I will, but I know a person who 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.080 has done this and translated it and done the work, 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.120 and he will definitely send you some links. 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.240 So I am very excited to say that we have 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:29.000 a I think it should be a special episode. We've 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.280 talked to him on the podcast before. We're going to 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.720 be speaking with Zishen Wog. He is the author of 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.480 the creator of the Pechnology Substack, which essentially looks at 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:43.480 public comments from officials, academics, leaders in China and then 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.600 writes about them and translates them for an American audience 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.760 and actually sort of helps an American audience understand what 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.320 this sort of like public discourse is. And anyway, over 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.840 the last year, he's been getting his master's degree in 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:01.080 public policy at the Princeton School of Public International Affairs. 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.040 So he's been in Princeton over the last year. But 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.400 he's going back to China and he's going to return 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.240 for where he was working at the think tank, the 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.200 Center for China and Globalization. 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.160 Right, So this is his exit interview from America. 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.840 Basically, when I heard that he was leaving town, I 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.040 was like, let's do an exit interview. And of course 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.280 the other added context, which I think is very relevant here, 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.720 is that this comes a time of extreme scrutiny on 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:28.480 the mere existence of Chinese students at American universities, particularly 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.160 out of the Trump administration. It's an American export US universities, 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.120 and there's this major crackdown. We've seen all these concerns 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.880 about visas, et cetera. So there's a perfect time to 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.839 do this exit interview. So Zishan, thank you so much 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.080 for coming on the podcast. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.400 Well, thank you for having me here back again. 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.080 You run a great newsletter and we had a great 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.160 episode with you. And as a student in the US, 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.440 you're sort of situated at a very interesting time. But 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.600 let's like back up, Like what prompted you to come 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.160 to the US to study in the first place. I mean, 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:02.200 you did this program at Princeton. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.840 How come before coming to the mid career Master in 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.920 Public Policy program at the Princeton School of Public International 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.440 Affairs formerly known as the Rural Wilson School, I'd already 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.520 been working for thirteen years, so I was like at 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.880 the middle of my professional trajectory and I were thinking 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:23.920 about getting another advanced education, and of course the United 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:25.440 States is the top destination. 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:27.440 One other thing. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:31.920 Is that, to the credit of Princeton, the Policy School 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.760 offers fully funded education, so that means they examined all 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:37.880 the tuition and the healthcare coverany. 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:39.720 No export revenue for US, yes. 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.000 Exactly in this case, yes, and also a living stipend. 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.760 And so I turned down some other offers from the UK, 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.400 from Singapore and came here. And also, as you correctly 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.120 mentioned at the very beginning, you know, China US relations 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.599 is perhaps the most consequential bilacual relations for someone whose 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.800 past career was in journalism and nonas in tank. I 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.159 couldn't think of a better place to be here in 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.839 the US. But you know, here we are, and I 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.280 feel like being overwhelmed by all these news. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.039 So on that note, was the plan always to go 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.039 back to China after you completed your degree or is 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:16.000 this something new. 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.599 That was like eighty or nineteen percent of my plan? 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.160 Mainly for personal reasons, but also I think the political 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.640 atom sphere is a bit overwhelming. I did have some 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.400 kind offers from potential employers here, but I decided against them. 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.720 The State Department announced, actually, you know, they are going 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:39.960 to aggressively revoke Chinese students visas as well as imposed 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.240 you know, further scrutiny on future Chinese students visa applications. 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.200 Let's say I stay on for one more year. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.440 I would be on opt or CPT, which is a 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.960 post training upon graduation from a US college, but that 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:58.080 status would be linked to your student visa, your FM visa. 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.760 So the potential consequences for Chinese students is not just 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:07.280 currently enrolled students, but also other you know, people who 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.120 are on o BTCBT students. 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:13.560 Here out of curiosity, is Princeton providing guidance on visas 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.200 because I can only imagine being a college student and 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.799 having to deal with immigration issues on top of everything else. 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.480 In light of what happened at Harvard, let me think 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.799 of a way of not putting Princeton in jeopardy again. 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.200 I did get I think, not just me, but everywhere else. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.440 Did get some emails from you know, sort of guidance 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:37.440 from the university which says it took notice of recent 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:41.240 news and it is offering resources basically, I guess, you know, 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.479 counseling as well as potential legal resources for people to 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.720 not to be against the administration, but to comply with 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.279 all the laws and regulations in this country. 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.839 This was a one year program obviously, say versus ten 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.320 years ago, the sort of level of suspicion and anxiety 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.680 about the press and a lot of Chinese students at 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:05.440 American universities has grown quite a bit. What about even 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.400 in the last year, how do things feel shifted? And 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.840 when you talk to other Chinese students, you know, is 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.560 it just like noise coming out of DC or does 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.440 it change the campus environment? 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:19.480 Well, I think it definitely has already had a chilly 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.040 in fact, And I mean for me personally, I feel 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.840 very welcomed and I feel all the hospitality and warmth 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:33.680 from my American professors, you know, school administrators, and the 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.840 prison community of neighbors and my local friends. But for 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.000 you know, most of the Chinese students who are currently 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.240 in this situation perhaps too scare to speak up, and 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.720 especially after the news last week, I think they are 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.240 under a bit of stress because the announcement out of 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:55.000 the state partament is very broad, it doesn't use very 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.760 exact language to ascertain who will exactly be in trouble. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.320 There are currently I think two hundred and seventy thousands 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.560 Chinese students here in the United States. China is the 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.600 second largest origin of international students here in the US, 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.679 and so was the first India. So for many years 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:18.200 China was the largest source of international students here in America, 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:22.120 but that number has come down since bilateral relations. 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:22.520 Worthen. 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.840 The United States has a proud history of welcoming Chinese 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.720 students who come to the United States. In the beginning 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.320 of the twentieth century, when China was still governed by 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.720 the Qing dynasty, there was this Boxer indemnities, basically the 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.920 compensations paid by dan Qing dynasty to various Western powers. 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.080 And at that time, the US was kind enough and 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.720 smart enough to turn those compensations into a scholarship program. 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.959 Which was part of their money diplomacy of the early 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:53.320 nineteen hundreds, right. 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:58.880 Well before Joseph Knight created the concept of soft power, 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.560 and the US has been practicing that. So they ceded 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.280 the top university in Beijing and sponsored to one thousand 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.439 and three hundred Chinese students to come to the United States. 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.400 And after the bilactual ties were established, you know, since 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.960 the two countries normalized the diplomatic relations, Republican and the 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:21.280 Democratic presidents both welcomed the Chinese students. There was this 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.600 very famous episode where Chinese top leader Don't Selping at 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.840 the time asked, you know, if he could send something 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.000 like five thousand Chinese students to the US, and President Cutter, 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.640 according to his own recollections, he responded that, well, tell him, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.480 tell them to send one hundred thousand students to America. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:44.000 I also read President Ronald Reagan actually received the Chinese 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.280 students and made remarks in some sort of reception welcoming them. 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.160 And let's remember that was a time when China was 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.280 much less open and dynamic than it is today. So 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.160 what is happening is really unfortunate. I think because of 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:02.280 this long history, many Chinese for granted the opportunities to 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.680 come here and study in America if they are good 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.560 enough to be offered the admission letters. But the larger 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:13.360 background is, of course, I guess globalization, because for many, 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:15.880 many years, people just believe, you know, everyone is going 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.920 to be more connected and we will benefit from more 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:23.160 people to people exchanges, from commerce, from you know, research collaborations. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:25.120 But unfortunately that. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.600 Era seems to be ending right now. Well, it may 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:33.160 have begun to be ending quite a few years Ago Joe. 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.079 Just as an aside, there's a really good book called 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.720 Fortunate Sons about some Chinese students who were sent to 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.880 a Connecticut school in I think the late eighteen hundreds. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:43.800 I'd love to read that. 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.560 It's really good. I read it when I bought that 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.240 house in Connecticut to try to bridge the gap I 0:10:50.240 --> 0:11:08.640 guess between Hong Kong and where I was living. I 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:13.079 wanted to ask, what's the difference or differences from your 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.480 perspective in terms of what you would learn in a 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.480 public policy degree in China versus a public policy degree 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:21.320 at some place like Princeton. 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:23.760 Well, that's a very good question. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.679 I think there is. This key difference is, for example, 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.800 policy schools are mostly for early career and mid career 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:35.160 professionals in public service sector, and here I think for example, 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.040 at Harvard Kendidate's school, at the Jackson School of Global Affairs, 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.000 at the year at PRINCETON'SBIA, they are offered full time. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.200 And that's because not just the US, but also many 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.840 governments across the world they have the flexibility to allow 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.320 their people to basically take a year or two year 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.800 off their professional career and come here. But back in China, 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.120 I think many of those programs are taught as a 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.200 part time process, although like they are labeled a full 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.080 time process because the I think sometimes the rigidity of 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.640 personnel management system means that it's very difficult for people 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.080 to basically leave work for a year or two and 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.319 get a full time education at you know, maybe Chinhuaan 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:18.359 and Peking University. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.280 And also here in the US, I. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.080 Think the policy schools benefits greatly from first of all, 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:29.439 former policymakers like retired former sistants, Secretary of State and 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.800 so here we have like many very good practitioners who 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.679 are becoming you know, teachers. We have, for example, Princeton Speer, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.760 some former Biden administration officials who just exited the administration. Well, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.160 I think in Chinese universities, to be fair, I haven't 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.360 gone to those policy schools, but that would be rare. 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:53.840 And secondly, this place benefits from a much broader well, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.920 I guess this is a toxic world now diversity here. Now, 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.520 for example, my class is highlighted like over half of 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.400 the classmates I international students, and also the faculty members, 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.480 some of them even come from foreign governments. I really 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.280 benefited from the global perspectives. I get from Princeton here. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:13.599 What did you do for undergrade? 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:15.960 Well, I went to a Chinese college and major lea 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:16.480 in finance. 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.720 Actually, I don't know much about Chinese universities. The only 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.000 thing I ever hear these days about Chinese universities is 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.440 usually in the context of tech competition in the number 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.920 of STEM graduates, and you hear a lot about the 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.760 number of hundreds of thousands of STEM graduates and the 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.719 advantages that sheer scale confers. You know, when I think 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.440 of American universities, there's STEM, but I also think a 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.199 lot about the heavy importance on liberal arts degrees and 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.040 literature and history, and people can go on to you know, 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.720 careers in tech and finance even from a history degree. 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.080 Can you compare contrast that sort of like intellectual environment 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:57.079 at the Chinese colleges in terms of the non technical fields. 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.000 Well, this is something I think that has been observed 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.800 and they talked about in the past few years when 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.040 people compare you know, Chinese and American universities, but also 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.000 between Chinese and I guess Indian universities, because based on 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.480 what I read, which may not be like very accurate, 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.719 it's like India also trains a lot of like lawyers 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.960 and you know, social sciences majors. But the general perception 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:25.280 is that the Chinese colleges and universities are training many 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.040 more STEM grads and you know in semiconductor related in 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.000 you know, mechanical and yeah. 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.880 I mean, this is just what everyone's talking about these 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.680 days because of this anxiety about tech competition. 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.000 Oh yeah, that's correct. And almost all. 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.840 Universities in China are state run. All the IVY leagues 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.760 are privately around universities here in the US, maybe because 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.080 I think China is still to some extent a transition economy. 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.680 So China initiated as a reform and opening up in 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.440 nineteen seventy eight, but before that it was a totally 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.480 planned economy where the government basically tells every one what 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:01.840 to do, uh, you know, in their schools and in 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:07.359 their professional journeys, and based on those you know paradigms, 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.240 a lot of Chinese universities are set up like to 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.600 train people in a specific field. For example, there is 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:19.120 this Beijing Aeronautics University which basically trains people you know 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:24.600 in space related technology and maybe rocket science. And then 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.240 there is also you know, comprehensive universities. But for for 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.640 many years there was this maybe legacy China learned from 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.840 the Soviet Union to have specialized colleges and universities in 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.240 training STEM grads. And also, you know, China has one 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.040 point four billion people. It is now the second most 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.400 populous country on Earth, so naturally you would see, you know, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.960 there are just many, many more Chinese students there, and 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:53.080 the Chinese they put heavy emphasis on science and technology. 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.240 Can I share with one detail with you? 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.240 Because I graduated from finance and I went down to 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.960 join a new studency in China, Yes, the same news agency. 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.600 And my mother used to tell me, why don't you 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.520 learn something real like finance and journalism? They are not 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:15.000 like real professional Well, I guess I didn't test very 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:18.280 well in Chinese college and trance examination. For many years 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.280 there was this quote in China, and I think it 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.880 still rings true, and it maybe it rings even truer today. Well, 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:29.760 in Chinese it's called hortually, like if you learn mathematics 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.040 and the physics and chemistry, you can go everywhere and 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.680 do and do well. And that is still on many 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.960 Chinese minds. And so for example in Ai, I think 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:40.920 Jason Juan of Nvidia, he. 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:42.960 Said, like a few weeks ago. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.440 I think he was citing Marco Polo I think tank 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.120 here formally affiliated with the Postle Institute, is that fifty 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.280 percent of the global AI talent is Chinese or maybe 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.120 having some sort of Chinese heritage. So that does speak 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:01.320 to the enormous training capacity of the Chinese education and 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.399 which also makes many people wander here. You know, AI 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.520 is going to shape everything in the future, and the 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.760 two countries seem to be lucked in a competition that 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.240 the US really want to shut out such a large 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:18.000 talent poll in Ai. And these students, Chinese students, you know, 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.360 after completing their undergrad degrees, they come to the United States, 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.959 they contribute to meaningfully, to groundbreaking research. And I think 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.000 this is one thing that many people have a maybe 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:35.000 an inaccurate understanding of how graduate level education, especially in 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:39.240 stem Field's work, this is not an extractive process. It's 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.920 not that you know, Chinese, Indian. You know, students from 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.240 global thouts come to the US universities, they learned, they 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.959 sat in classrooms, they learned from their American professors and peers, 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.520 and then they leave and brought the knowledge back with them. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:55.960 That's not the case. 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.720 Yes, they benefit enormously from the education system here, which 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.960 is just spectacular, but they make meaningful contributions in conducting 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.800 research and collaborating with the American peers and professors. They 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.960 stay in labs for days and months and which would 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:15.040 result in papers in top American journals. They actually contribute 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.040 to the creation of knowledge and the sharing of knowledge here. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.840 They contribute in the process. It's a symbiotic process, not 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.880 an extractive process. So by having them here, and some 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.280 of them, you know, would remain here legally, I should say, 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.159 you know, to work in the US, become entrepreneurs and 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.919 researchers and American taxpayers to pursue their American dreams, and 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.560 some of them would leave the US and go back 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.280 to China, India, and you know, everywhere on Earth, and 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.680 they would become, you know, informal ambassadors of American openings, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.960 of American inclusiveness, of American. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.760 Hospitality, and they would serve as. 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.960 One of the defense lines in terms of China US 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:59.200 relations as decreasing mutual strategic misunderstanding and the miscalculations. 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.040 So this truly. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.720 Something very important in my mind, and I'm really saddened 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.320 to see you know, the crackdown on Chinese students to 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:07.639 come to the United States. 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.280 When you go back to China, what nice things are 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:11.639 you going to say about America. 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.119 Well, the first thing I'll tell them is that I 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.040 have the enormous privilege of coming to outlaws on Princeton 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.480 I Bloomberg, I'm sorry, And that's really. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:23.200 That's the first thing. 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.840 Okay, what's number two? 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.520 Well, number two is I think I benefit a lot 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:31.959 from all the critical discussions on colleges. It's not just 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.520 you know, pro Trump against Trump. We have very different 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:40.560 views on all sorts of subjects. Some professors are rightfully 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.720 worried about, for example, rule of law here, but we 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.159 have also some classmates who have faculties who are very 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:53.720 sympathetic to what the broader Republican agenda is doing here 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.280 in the United States. So I think this clash of 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:01.480 different ideas, the market of free ideas is something simulating 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.200 for me personally. And the other reason is that, for example, 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.760 I'm fully founded by Princeton spar here, and so I 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:14.359 benefit truly from the hospitality and the generosity of the 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.040 American people here. Is the private university is the money 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.199 coming in from private donations I'm truly grateful for that, 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.480 and I don't think like any other country on the 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:28.199 Earth has simply has the financial capacity to do something 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.200 like that, So this is something. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.440 Really should be cherished. Here. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.520 I will certainly carry, you know, all these lessons and 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.000 appreciations back to China. 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.880 We started this conversation talking about deteriorating US China relations, 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.200 and I don't think anyone would disagree with that premise. 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.760 But the question I wanted to ask you is, as 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.639 someone who's worked in both Chinese and Western institutions, or 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.199 at least studied at a Western institution, what do you 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:03.400 think is the biggest understanding between the US and China. 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.000 What's the biggest sticking point? 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:09.600 You mentioned the subsect I did technology and all those 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.880 for example. I also have the privilege of being invited 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.200 to some of the major thing thanks here to share 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.879 my views with you know, fellow think tank analysts and 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.600 for officials. I think, if I really want to summarize, 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.679 like what I've been doing is to normalize China, because 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.520 China has a vastly different political system from the United States, 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:34.199 from all the major westerns and industrial the economiess I 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.439 think people fundamentally see China as a different beast, but 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:43.800 China also has politics. The Chinese government has many government departments, ministries. 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:48.639 They compete with one another. There is politics between different departments, 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:53.640 politics between different people inside one government department. The Chinese 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.680 make five year plans and they seem to be implementing 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.240 that quite well. For example, the China twenty twenty five 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:05.080 come into mind. But sometimes they are also very short sighted. 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:09.960 The Chinese have good accomplishments, they also make stupid mistakes. 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:11.359 That's just human nature. 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:15.560 What are some examples of short sighted? Because Americans love 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.680 to go to China and then they come back and 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:19.640 they say they think in the centuries, I'm like us 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.280 who just think. You know, it's these very cliches, these 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.159 very cliched commentary that you just hear over and over against, 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.040 like we just think about the next quarterly estimate or 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:32.280 hitting the next GDP. You say, obviously, any society is 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:34.560 going to be richer than these sort of cliche tropes 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:38.600