1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 3 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Allaway. 4 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: Tracy, we're recording this June fifth. President she Shinping and 5 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: President Trump just held a phone call. 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 3: Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 3: for that conversation? 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 4: I would. I don't know what that means. 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: Markets moved on it. I'm always surprised how hard it 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: is to set up phone, just pick up the phone, 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: But I'm always at surprised that these are like bigger news. 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 2: It should be noted that this was reported first by 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: the Shinwan News agency out of China, and there was 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 2: a headline that the news agency specified that the phone 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: call was at Trump's request. They made a point of saying. 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 3: That I still have this image of Trump sitting in 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 3: the Oval office by the phone, just like twittally his 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 3: thumbs waiting for shehian Ping to call, like hoping is 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: he gonna call me? Should I wait two days? Should 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 3: I wait three days before responding that kind of thing. 21 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: There was an Ultra Journal article from a few weeks 22 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 2: ago which made the observation which I had not realized 23 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: outside of the September eleventh terrorist attacks, there's never been 24 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: a contact between the US and China that was initiated 25 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: by China, which I hadn't realized before. I assume it's true. 26 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 3: So Sheishan Ping is sitting in his office twiddling waiting 27 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 3: for the Trump. 28 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, and then he decided, but he decides to 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: either take the call anyway. All of this sort of 30 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: speaks that to the fact, you know, we sort of 31 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: confused by all this, and there's still just so much 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: that I think Americans in particular, but I'm sure it 33 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: goes to both directions, like genuinely don't understand about the 34 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: other country. And given a time of increased tension obviously 35 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: the trade war heightened geopolitical concerns, it's not great. I 36 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: think it would be better even if we sort of 37 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: accept the premise of there is the very intense competition 38 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: that the two countries and the populations and the governments 39 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: and the people going to governments just know more about 40 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: how they work. 41 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 5: Absolutely. 42 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: Have you ever read an English translation of the way 43 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: China academics write and talk about American society and American politics? 44 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: I should read this. 45 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 3: It's really really interesting. 46 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: Should send me some links? 47 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I will, but I know a person who 48 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 3: has done this and translated it and done the work, 49 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: and he will definitely send you some links. 50 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: So I am very excited to say that we have 51 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: a I think it should be a special episode. We've 52 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: talked to him on the podcast before. We're going to 53 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: be speaking with Zishen Wog. He is the author of 54 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: the creator of the Pechnology Substack, which essentially looks at 55 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: public comments from officials, academics, leaders in China and then 56 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: writes about them and translates them for an American audience 57 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: and actually sort of helps an American audience understand what 58 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: this sort of like public discourse is. And anyway, over 59 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: the last year, he's been getting his master's degree in 60 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: public policy at the Princeton School of Public International Affairs. 61 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: So he's been in Princeton over the last year. But 62 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: he's going back to China and he's going to return 63 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: for where he was working at the think tank, the 64 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 2: Center for China and Globalization. 65 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 3: Right, So this is his exit interview from America. 66 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: Basically, when I heard that he was leaving town, I 67 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: was like, let's do an exit interview. And of course 68 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: the other added context, which I think is very relevant here, 69 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: is that this comes a time of extreme scrutiny on 70 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: the mere existence of Chinese students at American universities, particularly 71 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: out of the Trump administration. It's an American export US universities, 72 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: and there's this major crackdown. We've seen all these concerns 73 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: about visas, et cetera. So there's a perfect time to 74 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 2: do this exit interview. So Zishan, thank you so much 75 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: for coming on the podcast. 76 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 5: Well, thank you for having me here back again. 77 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: You run a great newsletter and we had a great 78 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: episode with you. And as a student in the US, 79 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: you're sort of situated at a very interesting time. But 80 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: let's like back up, Like what prompted you to come 81 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: to the US to study in the first place. I mean, 82 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: you did this program at Princeton. 83 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 5: How come before coming to the mid career Master in 84 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 5: Public Policy program at the Princeton School of Public International 85 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 5: Affairs formerly known as the Rural Wilson School, I'd already 86 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 5: been working for thirteen years, so I was like at 87 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 5: the middle of my professional trajectory and I were thinking 88 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 5: about getting another advanced education, and of course the United 89 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 5: States is the top destination. 90 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 4: One other thing. 91 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 5: Is that, to the credit of Princeton, the Policy School 92 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 5: offers fully funded education, so that means they examined all 93 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 5: the tuition and the healthcare coverany. 94 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 4: No export revenue for US, yes. 95 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 5: Exactly in this case, yes, and also a living stipend. 96 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 5: And so I turned down some other offers from the UK, 97 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 5: from Singapore and came here. And also, as you correctly 98 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 5: mentioned at the very beginning, you know, China US relations 99 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 5: is perhaps the most consequential bilacual relations for someone whose 100 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 5: past career was in journalism and nonas in tank. I 101 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 5: couldn't think of a better place to be here in 102 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 5: the US. But you know, here we are, and I 103 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 5: feel like being overwhelmed by all these news. 104 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 3: So on that note, was the plan always to go 105 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 3: back to China after you completed your degree or is 106 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: this something new. 107 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 5: That was like eighty or nineteen percent of my plan? 108 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 5: Mainly for personal reasons, but also I think the political 109 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 5: atom sphere is a bit overwhelming. I did have some 110 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 5: kind offers from potential employers here, but I decided against them. 111 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 5: The State Department announced, actually, you know, they are going 112 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 5: to aggressively revoke Chinese students visas as well as imposed 113 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 5: you know, further scrutiny on future Chinese students visa applications. 114 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 4: Let's say I stay on for one more year. 115 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 5: I would be on opt or CPT, which is a 116 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 5: post training upon graduation from a US college, but that 117 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 5: status would be linked to your student visa, your FM visa. 118 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 5: So the potential consequences for Chinese students is not just 119 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 5: currently enrolled students, but also other you know, people who 120 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 5: are on o BTCBT students. 121 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 3: Here out of curiosity, is Princeton providing guidance on visas 122 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: because I can only imagine being a college student and 123 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,799 Speaker 3: having to deal with immigration issues on top of everything else. 124 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 5: In light of what happened at Harvard, let me think 125 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 5: of a way of not putting Princeton in jeopardy again. 126 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 5: I did get I think, not just me, but everywhere else. 127 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 5: Did get some emails from you know, sort of guidance 128 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 5: from the university which says it took notice of recent 129 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 5: news and it is offering resources basically, I guess, you know, 130 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 5: counseling as well as potential legal resources for people to 131 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 5: not to be against the administration, but to comply with 132 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 5: all the laws and regulations in this country. 133 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: This was a one year program obviously, say versus ten 134 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: years ago, the sort of level of suspicion and anxiety 135 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: about the press and a lot of Chinese students at 136 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: American universities has grown quite a bit. What about even 137 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: in the last year, how do things feel shifted? And 138 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: when you talk to other Chinese students, you know, is 139 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: it just like noise coming out of DC or does 140 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: it change the campus environment? 141 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 5: Well, I think it definitely has already had a chilly 142 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 5: in fact, And I mean for me personally, I feel 143 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 5: very welcomed and I feel all the hospitality and warmth 144 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 5: from my American professors, you know, school administrators, and the 145 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 5: prison community of neighbors and my local friends. But for 146 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 5: you know, most of the Chinese students who are currently 147 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 5: in this situation perhaps too scare to speak up, and 148 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 5: especially after the news last week, I think they are 149 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 5: under a bit of stress because the announcement out of 150 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 5: the state partament is very broad, it doesn't use very 151 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 5: exact language to ascertain who will exactly be in trouble. 152 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 5: There are currently I think two hundred and seventy thousands 153 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 5: Chinese students here in the United States. China is the 154 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 5: second largest origin of international students here in the US, 155 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 5: and so was the first India. So for many years 156 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 5: China was the largest source of international students here in America, 157 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 5: but that number has come down since bilateral relations. 158 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 4: Worthen. 159 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 5: The United States has a proud history of welcoming Chinese 160 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 5: students who come to the United States. In the beginning 161 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 5: of the twentieth century, when China was still governed by 162 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 5: the Qing dynasty, there was this Boxer indemnities, basically the 163 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 5: compensations paid by dan Qing dynasty to various Western powers. 164 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 5: And at that time, the US was kind enough and 165 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 5: smart enough to turn those compensations into a scholarship program. 166 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 3: Which was part of their money diplomacy of the early 167 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: nineteen hundreds, right. 168 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 5: Well before Joseph Knight created the concept of soft power, 169 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 5: and the US has been practicing that. So they ceded 170 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 5: the top university in Beijing and sponsored to one thousand 171 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 5: and three hundred Chinese students to come to the United States. 172 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 5: And after the bilactual ties were established, you know, since 173 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 5: the two countries normalized the diplomatic relations, Republican and the 174 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 5: Democratic presidents both welcomed the Chinese students. There was this 175 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 5: very famous episode where Chinese top leader Don't Selping at 176 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 5: the time asked, you know, if he could send something 177 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 5: like five thousand Chinese students to the US, and President Cutter, 178 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 5: according to his own recollections, he responded that, well, tell him, 179 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 5: tell them to send one hundred thousand students to America. 180 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 5: I also read President Ronald Reagan actually received the Chinese 181 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 5: students and made remarks in some sort of reception welcoming them. 182 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 5: And let's remember that was a time when China was 183 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 5: much less open and dynamic than it is today. So 184 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 5: what is happening is really unfortunate. I think because of 185 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 5: this long history, many Chinese for granted the opportunities to 186 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 5: come here and study in America if they are good 187 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 5: enough to be offered the admission letters. But the larger 188 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 5: background is, of course, I guess globalization, because for many, 189 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 5: many years, people just believe, you know, everyone is going 190 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 5: to be more connected and we will benefit from more 191 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 5: people to people exchanges, from commerce, from you know, research collaborations. 192 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 4: But unfortunately that. 193 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 5: Era seems to be ending right now. Well, it may 194 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 5: have begun to be ending quite a few years Ago Joe. 195 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 3: Just as an aside, there's a really good book called 196 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: Fortunate Sons about some Chinese students who were sent to 197 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 3: a Connecticut school in I think the late eighteen hundreds. 198 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: I'd love to read that. 199 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 3: It's really good. I read it when I bought that 200 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 3: house in Connecticut to try to bridge the gap I 201 00:10:50,240 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: guess between Hong Kong and where I was living. I 202 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 3: wanted to ask, what's the difference or differences from your 203 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 3: perspective in terms of what you would learn in a 204 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 3: public policy degree in China versus a public policy degree 205 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 3: at some place like Princeton. 206 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 4: Well, that's a very good question. 207 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 5: I think there is. This key difference is, for example, 208 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 5: policy schools are mostly for early career and mid career 209 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 5: professionals in public service sector, and here I think for example, 210 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 5: at Harvard Kendidate's school, at the Jackson School of Global Affairs, 211 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 5: at the year at PRINCETON'SBIA, they are offered full time. 212 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 5: And that's because not just the US, but also many 213 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 5: governments across the world they have the flexibility to allow 214 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 5: their people to basically take a year or two year 215 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 5: off their professional career and come here. But back in China, 216 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 5: I think many of those programs are taught as a 217 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 5: part time process, although like they are labeled a full 218 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 5: time process because the I think sometimes the rigidity of 219 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 5: personnel management system means that it's very difficult for people 220 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 5: to basically leave work for a year or two and 221 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 5: get a full time education at you know, maybe Chinhuaan 222 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:18,359 Speaker 5: and Peking University. 223 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 4: And also here in the US, I. 224 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 5: Think the policy schools benefits greatly from first of all, 225 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 5: former policymakers like retired former sistants, Secretary of State and 226 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 5: so here we have like many very good practitioners who 227 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 5: are becoming you know, teachers. We have, for example, Princeton Speer, 228 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 5: some former Biden administration officials who just exited the administration. Well, 229 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 5: I think in Chinese universities, to be fair, I haven't 230 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 5: gone to those policy schools, but that would be rare. 231 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 5: And secondly, this place benefits from a much broader well, 232 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 5: I guess this is a toxic world now diversity here. Now, 233 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 5: for example, my class is highlighted like over half of 234 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 5: the classmates I international students, and also the faculty members, 235 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 5: some of them even come from foreign governments. I really 236 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 5: benefited from the global perspectives. I get from Princeton here. 237 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 2: What did you do for undergrade? 238 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 5: Well, I went to a Chinese college and major lea 239 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 5: in finance. 240 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: Actually, I don't know much about Chinese universities. The only 241 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: thing I ever hear these days about Chinese universities is 242 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 2: usually in the context of tech competition in the number 243 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: of STEM graduates, and you hear a lot about the 244 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: number of hundreds of thousands of STEM graduates and the 245 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 2: advantages that sheer scale confers. You know, when I think 246 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: of American universities, there's STEM, but I also think a 247 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 2: lot about the heavy importance on liberal arts degrees and 248 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: literature and history, and people can go on to you know, 249 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: careers in tech and finance even from a history degree. 250 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 2: Can you compare contrast that sort of like intellectual environment 251 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 2: at the Chinese colleges in terms of the non technical fields. 252 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 5: Well, this is something I think that has been observed 253 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 5: and they talked about in the past few years when 254 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 5: people compare you know, Chinese and American universities, but also 255 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 5: between Chinese and I guess Indian universities, because based on 256 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 5: what I read, which may not be like very accurate, 257 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 5: it's like India also trains a lot of like lawyers 258 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 5: and you know, social sciences majors. But the general perception 259 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 5: is that the Chinese colleges and universities are training many 260 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 5: more STEM grads and you know in semiconductor related in 261 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 5: you know, mechanical and yeah. 262 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: I mean, this is just what everyone's talking about these 263 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: days because of this anxiety about tech competition. 264 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's correct. And almost all. 265 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 5: Universities in China are state run. All the IVY leagues 266 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 5: are privately around universities here in the US, maybe because 267 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 5: I think China is still to some extent a transition economy. 268 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 5: So China initiated as a reform and opening up in 269 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 5: nineteen seventy eight, but before that it was a totally 270 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 5: planned economy where the government basically tells every one what 271 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 5: to do, uh, you know, in their schools and in 272 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:07,359 Speaker 5: their professional journeys, and based on those you know paradigms, 273 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 5: a lot of Chinese universities are set up like to 274 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 5: train people in a specific field. For example, there is 275 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 5: this Beijing Aeronautics University which basically trains people you know 276 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 5: in space related technology and maybe rocket science. And then 277 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 5: there is also you know, comprehensive universities. But for for 278 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 5: many years there was this maybe legacy China learned from 279 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 5: the Soviet Union to have specialized colleges and universities in 280 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 5: training STEM grads. And also, you know, China has one 281 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 5: point four billion people. It is now the second most 282 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 5: populous country on Earth, so naturally you would see, you know, 283 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 5: there are just many, many more Chinese students there, and 284 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 5: the Chinese they put heavy emphasis on science and technology. 285 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 4: Can I share with one detail with you? 286 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 5: Because I graduated from finance and I went down to 287 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 5: join a new studency in China, Yes, the same news agency. 288 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 5: And my mother used to tell me, why don't you 289 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 5: learn something real like finance and journalism? They are not 290 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 5: like real professional Well, I guess I didn't test very 291 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 5: well in Chinese college and trance examination. For many years 292 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 5: there was this quote in China, and I think it 293 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 5: still rings true, and it maybe it rings even truer today. Well, 294 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 5: in Chinese it's called hortually, like if you learn mathematics 295 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 5: and the physics and chemistry, you can go everywhere and 296 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 5: do and do well. And that is still on many 297 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 5: Chinese minds. And so for example in Ai, I think 298 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 5: Jason Juan of Nvidia, he. 299 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 4: Said, like a few weeks ago. 300 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 5: I think he was citing Marco Polo I think tank 301 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 5: here formally affiliated with the Postle Institute, is that fifty 302 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 5: percent of the global AI talent is Chinese or maybe 303 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 5: having some sort of Chinese heritage. So that does speak 304 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 5: to the enormous training capacity of the Chinese education and 305 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 5: which also makes many people wander here. You know, AI 306 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 5: is going to shape everything in the future, and the 307 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 5: two countries seem to be lucked in a competition that 308 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 5: the US really want to shut out such a large 309 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 5: talent poll in Ai. And these students, Chinese students, you know, 310 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 5: after completing their undergrad degrees, they come to the United States, 311 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 5: they contribute to meaningfully, to groundbreaking research. And I think 312 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 5: this is one thing that many people have a maybe 313 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 5: an inaccurate understanding of how graduate level education, especially in 314 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 5: stem Field's work, this is not an extractive process. It's 315 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 5: not that you know, Chinese, Indian. You know, students from 316 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 5: global thouts come to the US universities, they learned, they 317 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 5: sat in classrooms, they learned from their American professors and peers, 318 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 5: and then they leave and brought the knowledge back with them. 319 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 4: That's not the case. 320 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 5: Yes, they benefit enormously from the education system here, which 321 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 5: is just spectacular, but they make meaningful contributions in conducting 322 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 5: research and collaborating with the American peers and professors. They 323 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 5: stay in labs for days and months and which would 324 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 5: result in papers in top American journals. They actually contribute 325 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 5: to the creation of knowledge and the sharing of knowledge here. 326 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 5: They contribute in the process. It's a symbiotic process, not 327 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 5: an extractive process. So by having them here, and some 328 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 5: of them, you know, would remain here legally, I should say, 329 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 5: you know, to work in the US, become entrepreneurs and 330 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 5: researchers and American taxpayers to pursue their American dreams, and 331 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 5: some of them would leave the US and go back 332 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 5: to China, India, and you know, everywhere on Earth, and 333 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 5: they would become, you know, informal ambassadors of American openings, 334 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 5: of American inclusiveness, of American. 335 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 4: Hospitality, and they would serve as. 336 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 5: One of the defense lines in terms of China US 337 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 5: relations as decreasing mutual strategic misunderstanding and the miscalculations. 338 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 4: So this truly. 339 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 5: Something very important in my mind, and I'm really saddened 340 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 5: to see you know, the crackdown on Chinese students to 341 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 5: come to the United States. 342 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: When you go back to China, what nice things are 343 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 3: you going to say about America. 344 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 5: Well, the first thing I'll tell them is that I 345 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 5: have the enormous privilege of coming to outlaws on Princeton 346 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 5: I Bloomberg, I'm sorry, And that's really. 347 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 2: That's the first thing. 348 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 4: Okay, what's number two? 349 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 5: Well, number two is I think I benefit a lot 350 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 5: from all the critical discussions on colleges. It's not just 351 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 5: you know, pro Trump against Trump. We have very different 352 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 5: views on all sorts of subjects. Some professors are rightfully 353 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 5: worried about, for example, rule of law here, but we 354 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 5: have also some classmates who have faculties who are very 355 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 5: sympathetic to what the broader Republican agenda is doing here 356 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 5: in the United States. So I think this clash of 357 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 5: different ideas, the market of free ideas is something simulating 358 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 5: for me personally. And the other reason is that, for example, 359 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 5: I'm fully founded by Princeton spar here, and so I 360 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 5: benefit truly from the hospitality and the generosity of the 361 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 5: American people here. Is the private university is the money 362 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 5: coming in from private donations I'm truly grateful for that, 363 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 5: and I don't think like any other country on the 364 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 5: Earth has simply has the financial capacity to do something 365 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 5: like that, So this is something. 366 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 4: Really should be cherished. Here. 367 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 5: I will certainly carry, you know, all these lessons and 368 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 5: appreciations back to China. 369 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 3: We started this conversation talking about deteriorating US China relations, 370 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 3: and I don't think anyone would disagree with that premise. 371 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: But the question I wanted to ask you is, as 372 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 3: someone who's worked in both Chinese and Western institutions, or 373 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 3: at least studied at a Western institution, what do you 374 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 3: think is the biggest understanding between the US and China. 375 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: What's the biggest sticking point? 376 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 5: You mentioned the subsect I did technology and all those 377 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 5: for example. I also have the privilege of being invited 378 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 5: to some of the major thing thanks here to share 379 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 5: my views with you know, fellow think tank analysts and 380 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 5: for officials. I think, if I really want to summarize, 381 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 5: like what I've been doing is to normalize China, because 382 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 5: China has a vastly different political system from the United States, 383 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 5: from all the major westerns and industrial the economiess I 384 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 5: think people fundamentally see China as a different beast, but 385 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 5: China also has politics. The Chinese government has many government departments, ministries. 386 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 5: They compete with one another. There is politics between different departments, 387 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 5: politics between different people inside one government department. The Chinese 388 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 5: make five year plans and they seem to be implementing 389 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 5: that quite well. For example, the China twenty twenty five 390 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 5: come into mind. But sometimes they are also very short sighted. 391 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 5: The Chinese have good accomplishments, they also make stupid mistakes. 392 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 5: That's just human nature. 393 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: What are some examples of short sighted? Because Americans love 394 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 2: to go to China and then they come back and 395 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 2: they say they think in the centuries, I'm like us 396 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: who just think. You know, it's these very cliches, these 397 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 2: very cliched commentary that you just hear over and over against, 398 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: like we just think about the next quarterly estimate or 399 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: hitting the next GDP. You say, obviously, any society is 400 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: going to be richer than these sort of cliche tropes 401 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: that you know when you look back at decisions, Because 402 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 2: you mentioned seems like the mad and twenty twenty five 403 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 2: stuff worked out really well, but where do you see 404 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: it breaking down? At times? 405 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 5: For example, let's talk about Eve's right, you know, the 406 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 5: electric vehicles. 407 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 4: So everyone now knows. 408 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 5: That China is leading on EV's and people talk about 409 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 5: bid about you know, cell me, the former smartphonemaker turned 410 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 5: automobile maker, and it seems like, you know, Ford and 411 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 5: other US auto giants are falling behind. So many people 412 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 5: attribute to some sort of Chinese state subsidies and industrial strategy. 413 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 5: But there also in mind that before this evy boom, 414 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 5: there were like a dozen Chinese automobile makers. Almost all 415 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 5: of them were state around automobile companies, because China implemented this. 416 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 5: When foreign comakers come to China, you have to form 417 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 5: joint ventures with Chinese planners, and in many cases the 418 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 5: Chinese partners have to be in control of fifty one 419 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 5: percent of the joint venture. 420 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 4: But all these Chinese. 421 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 5: Stay around automobile giants are actually falling behind. Now what 422 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 5: you are seeing in the EV boom in China, the 423 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 5: names coming to mind are all very new private around 424 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 5: Chinese automobile makers. They didn't exist, They didn't benefit from 425 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 5: the sort of state monopoly or preferential loans and maybe 426 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 5: land and all the in kind subsidies for those they 427 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 5: basically partnered with. BMW with all these American and the 428 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 5: European commakers, but look they are falling behind now. 429 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: It's on the other hand sorry, But on the other hand, 430 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: I could listen to that story and say, because of 431 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: this requirement for jvs, the only possibility of actual private 432 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 2: automobile development in China was for domestic companies, and international 433 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: companies never had that chance to actually sort of be 434 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 2: truly autonomous within the Chinese domestic market. Seems like that 435 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 2: worked out very well in the grand scheme of things 436 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: for ensuring that the only companies with complete agility, et 437 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: cetera in the Chinese market ended up being Chinese. 438 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 5: Well, first of all, that could be some sort of 439 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 5: a good policy advice for the Cormon administration, I guess, 440 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 5: and also maybe European governments. And secondly, I'm very down. 441 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 2: With please bring bid in a JV or something like that. 442 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: I wanted uid gigafactor in Georgia or something like that. 443 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: I've said that before anyway, going. 444 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 5: What I was trying to say is there is this discrepancy. 445 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 4: With you know, all the power of our. 446 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 5: Industrial strategies, but at the same time it's the private 447 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 5: ingenuity of the innovation of the hard work of the 448 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 5: private Chinese companies which have somehow come out on the 449 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 5: top all the states around companies, they are are falling behind, 450 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 5: at least in the automobile sector. And that shows that 451 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 5: I think people tend to see China as a country 452 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 5: with the Communist Party of China sitting atop the state 453 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 5: tells everyone what to do and marshaling all the resources. 454 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 5: But it is also at the same time just spectacularly 455 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 5: competitive and the innovative place where private ingenuity and hard 456 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 5: work really plays a very big rule. There is this 457 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 5: say in China you know five six, seven, eight nine 458 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 5: basically says you know, over half of the GDP, of 459 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 5: the taxation, of the new employ ooyment are all created 460 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 5: by private companies. And so that's something when Americans perceive China, 461 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 5: they think of just one very coherent, I don't know, Bechman, 462 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 5: where you know, there is this larger central brain telling 463 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 5: everyone to do everything else. And yes, the the like 464 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 5: the Chinese government, the Commanist Party of China enjoys enormous 465 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 5: power in telling in shaping the Chinese society compared with 466 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 5: Western powers. But do not discount and actually I think 467 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 5: much more emphasis should be put on the non state 468 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 5: part of the Chinese society. 469 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 3: You mentioned your mom thinking that doing finance and journalism 470 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 3: was not very valuable, And one thing you sometimes hear 471 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 3: is that China places greater importance or value on people 472 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: studying stem going into tech. And I guess I'm curious 473 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: how much has that changed over the years, Like, if 474 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: I was a high school student in China in I 475 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 3: don't know the nineteen nineties, would be encouraged to be 476 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 3: a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher, or would 477 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 3: I be encouraged to go into tech? Like basically, how 478 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 3: has that culture of which subject is most valued changed 479 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 3: over time? 480 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: You are very sharp eyed. 481 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 5: I think if it was in the nineteen nineties, people 482 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 5: wanted to go to I don't want to name names, 483 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 5: like certain finance schools in China, and after graduation, like 484 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 5: they would want to work in Goldman Sucks and Morgan Stanley. 485 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 4: That's like the top jobs. 486 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 5: Maybe when I graduated from college in twenty eleven, that's 487 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 5: still the case what the people wanted to do because 488 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 5: it makes huge money. It makes very big money. But 489 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 5: especially in the past decade, I think I'm. 490 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 4: Sure you have reported this. 491 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 5: There is a large casts to the income to the 492 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 5: wages of Chinese financial engineering, and even when to the 493 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 5: Internet sector, Facebook now known as Matter and all those 494 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 5: booms they contribute to consumer internet that was the thing 495 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 5: in China as well. Like Ali Baba and Tencent, what 496 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 5: they do is they popularize some technologies which makes lives 497 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 5: much easier for everyday consumers and also businesses. But in 498 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 5: a sense, I think now more value is put into 499 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 5: the sort of technologies that would really boost the productivity 500 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 5: in you know, industrial process For example, even doctors and 501 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 5: hospitals can identify certain diseases. It's not just you know, 502 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 5: I can go out and get a delivery much easier 503 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 5: from a from a restaurant. So the term technology I 504 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 5: think has taken out a new meaning. And if I 505 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 5: can make a recommendation. There is this Dan Wound who 506 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 5: who I think. 507 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 4: Is in. 508 00:28:58,640 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: To recommend Dan long. 509 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 4: Audience. 510 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: We've had about several times. I'm sure we'll do a 511 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 2: big thing when his book comes out. Both Tracy and 512 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: I have copies of it on our desk. You should 513 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: go pre order it on Amazon raw. 514 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 5: So basically I think China is wishing to make Yeah, 515 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 5: basically these hot technologies more sexy than you know, just 516 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 5: joining a tech firm. 517 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: It's interesting. It sort of feels this is becoming an 518 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: international phenomenon that everyone is getting very anxious about their 519 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: country's capacity to do quote hard tech. You are returning 520 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: to China and you're going to go back to the 521 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 2: think tank, the Center for China and Globalization. It's interesting. 522 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: I'm looking at the controversy section in the Wikipedia page 523 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: for it, and Marco Rubio, who's now the Secretary of State, 524 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, he actually blasted your school. He blasted 525 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: the Woodrow Wilson School for inviting a scholar from the CCG, 526 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: and he said the retire to the Chinese Communist Party. 527 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: And CCG, according to Wikipedia, is a member of an 528 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: alliance of think tanks coordinated by the International Department of 529 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: the Chinese Communist Party that support the Belton Road initiative, 530 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: which we've talked about. 531 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 4: On the show. 532 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: Now, granted, your situation strikes me as a little bit 533 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: unique because most students coming to the US from China 534 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: are not going to a public policy school and a 535 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: one year funded thing. Why shouldn't American lawmakers, however, be 536 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: concerned about training many of the next generation of leaders 537 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: in a country that is perceived to be a major rival, 538 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: and doing work with them and training them in Ai 539 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: and all of these things that there is so much 540 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: sort of almost everyone accepts that there is going to 541 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: be some degree of, you know, either geopolitical and business competition. 542 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 5: First of all, about the Wikipedia page you was Jess mentioned, Yeah, 543 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 5: I know, it's very very thorough research over here. 544 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 2: I click out a Lincoln Our School of a controversy section, 545 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: but I wanted to, you know, I saw both your 546 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: think tank and the Wilson School have come under controversy 547 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: for connections. 548 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 5: The joke I typically make in this sort of conversation 549 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 5: is that, well, I came from the State Ground News agency. 550 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 5: I was a proper Chinese government personnel, and now people 551 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 5: would characterize me as some sort of you know, the 552 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 5: term United Front. That's like semi government. You're done grading me, like, 553 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 5: I was a proper Chinese government for eleven years and 554 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 5: I left, you know, in October tenty twenty two. And 555 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 5: if we have time, I'd be happy to dive into 556 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 5: the details of you know, the difference between a government 557 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 5: rund thing tank and a non governmental thing tank in China. 558 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 5: But to your larger point, is that there is this 559 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 5: term which says keep your friends close and keep your 560 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 5: enemy closer. I'm not sure exactly if China and US 561 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 5: are enemies at the moment, but just from that inside, 562 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 5: I think it would be very beneficial for the US, 563 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 5: especially policy schools, but also other you know, social sciences 564 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 5: and universities, to try to have Chinese contributions, to have 565 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 5: Chinese students' presence here, so that's you know, when push 566 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 5: comes to shop, they have someone to call, They know 567 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 5: what the Chinese are really thinking about, and that is 568 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 5: I think one of the tragedies from the crackdown for example. However, 569 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 5: than have the Chinist school. 570 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: You mentioned that there's a difference between properly state run 571 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: think tanks and non state run think tanks. I think 572 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: in the US there is a perception, and this actually 573 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 2: goes back to the talk about companies, including car companies, 574 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: et cetera. There's a perception that there's actually no private 575 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: companies that implicitly, even the private companies, the byds, et cetera, 576 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: are at some level, you know, at the back and 577 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 2: call of the state, and some more literally. The other 578 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: is even those incredible book about Walkway talks, a lot 579 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: about there's a Communist party leadership within the company. It 580 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 2: engages in making sure itch members who are employers of 581 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: the company and engage in more moral behavior and aren't 582 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: doing things like gambling, et cetera. Why shouldn't we think 583 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 2: that every country within China, regardless of how it's incorporated, 584 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: answers up to political leadership invasion. 585 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 5: I think on macro level, I do not see a 586 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 5: drastic difference between for example, a US president wants. 587 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 4: To have like Nvadia or Apple to. 588 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 5: Become the dominant forces in the world, and from the 589 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 5: Chaps Actor, from the Inflation Reduction Act to offering you know, 590 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 5: generous subsidies to American companies. In China, there is this 591 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 5: support for Chinese companies, but in many cases not from. 592 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 4: The very start. 593 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 5: It's like, you know how we studied very little, and 594 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 5: it was competing with UH with European telecom vendors at 595 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 5: the very beginning, and for many years, you know, China Mobile, 596 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 5: China Unicom, all the state telecomation firms, they just wanted 597 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 5: the equipment from the European suppliers and yeah, and probably 598 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 5: had to go to the European markets to increase its customers. 599 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 5: Numbers and revenue and after a few years and especially 600 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 5: when the industry became more strategic and uh, and then 601 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 5: the Chinese comment, would you know, take a look at 602 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 5: of the potential players and believe, oh, this is perhaps 603 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 5: an industry that's going to be of strategical value in 604 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,919 Speaker 5: the future, and would provide some sort of assistance to them. 605 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 5: But I wouldn't think that there is a CCP committee 606 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 5: overseeing Huawei on a daily basis telling them, you know, 607 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 5: this is something you should do in the Southeast Asia 608 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 5: and this is something you should work on in Africa. 609 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 5: And if that were the case, Huawei wouldn't be where 610 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 5: it is today, Which is also why I sincerely believe 611 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 5: the US persecution of Quawei and other properly private Chinese 612 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 5: companies is a strategic mistake, because these companies were on 613 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 5: their way to making China more dynamic, more private, having 614 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 5: more private elements in the Chinese society, to have more 615 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 5: international exposure, to allow people to have a career path 616 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 5: a meaningful one, a financially rewarding one. 617 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 4: Outside the apparatus. 618 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 5: These companies are helping China to become more open, more 619 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 5: aligned with international standards. So these are positive forces from 620 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 5: a market perspective that to help align China with the 621 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 5: globalization process, with the so called rule based international order. 622 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 4: And this is also the reasons. 623 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 5: For example, the US has imposed many export controls and 624 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 5: has for example, sanctioned Russia and other states and companies 625 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 5: that are deemed hostile to US national interests, and many 626 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 5: of the Chinese private companies are well silently just abide 627 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 5: by all these sanctions because they want to globalize. They 628 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 5: want to have markets and the partners and supplies across 629 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 5: the world. 630 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 4: But I guess this. 631 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 5: Is the year ten twenty five. There is no way 632 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 5: to turn around this phenomena. I guess. 633 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 3: Well, on this note, this actually leads into a question 634 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, and I think this will be 635 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 3: the last question for me. 636 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 4: But one of my. 637 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 3: Pet theories right now is that the US is starting 638 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 3: to look a lot more like China, and China is 639 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 3: starting to look a lot more like the US. So 640 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 3: just recently, for instance, you've seen Chinese policy makers try 641 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 3: to boost consumer spending, which is a page out of 642 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 3: the US playbook. After financial crises, they've been enhancing their 643 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 3: social safety net, which again kind of looks American, although 644 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,240 Speaker 3: you can debate how strong the American social net is. America, meanwhile, 645 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 3: has been making more strategic investments in certain industries. Industrial 646 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 3: policy has become a thing again. China's liberalizing part of 647 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 3: its market. The US says it's going to keep Chinese 648 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 3: investors out of its market, like it feels like they're 649 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 3: taking on each other's characteristics to some degree. I guess 650 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 3: my question is would you agree with that? And I 651 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 3: have to say Michael Pettis did not agree with me, 652 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 3: but a couple others Victor Schwetz over at McCrory agreed 653 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 3: with me. And then right after I wrote my piece 654 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 3: about this, there was a big foreign policy article basically 655 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 3: saying the same thing. So I would love to get 656 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 3: your opinion. 657 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 5: Well, I think I've heard the term called beating China 658 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 5: by becoming China. And I do think that the United 659 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 5: States has its legitimate interests in strengthening its supply chain, 660 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 5: in safeguarding the resilience of its industries. Like I totally 661 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,280 Speaker 5: understand that the US doesn't want to rely one hundred 662 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 5: percent on ppees during COVID. It wants to ensure a 663 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 5: certain level of self reliance when it comes to manufacturing capacity. 664 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 5: Maybe i'mshore or maybe friendly shoring like in allies, you know, 665 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 5: Transatlantic allies. I get that, and I think when it 666 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 5: comes to China, what you were mentioning, and I guess 667 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 5: maybe Michael Pattis doesn't fully agree, is that many people 668 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 5: believe the process in China of you know, showing up 669 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 5: the consumer spending and strengthening the social safety that that 670 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 5: should be accelerated, that should go much faster than it 671 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 5: is happening today, because you know, the Chinese government they 672 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 5: have officially, according to their policy papers, recognizes that. In 673 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 5: the Chinese minds, it's not about basically learning from American 674 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 5: way of establishing a social safety nets, maybe from the Europeans, 675 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 5: I guess, but because it is fundamentally helpful and beneficial 676 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 5: for the Chinese society, for the Chinese people to have 677 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 5: a relatively robust healthcare coverage insurance so that they could 678 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 5: spend money on more iPhones and other consumer electronics. This 679 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 5: is fundamentally good something good. It's not about learning from 680 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 5: the rest of the world, but a phenomena. You just 681 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 5: mentioned that there is some sort of convergence. I do 682 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 5: hope they converge. I'm being more open. I'm being more humane. 683 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 5: I'm being more humanitarian, being more. 684 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 4: Hospitable to people to persons. 685 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 5: And if I may have some sort of last word 686 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 5: on this, I'm really saddened and sometimes I'm angry that 687 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 5: it's the students. They are at their early twenties or 688 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 5: maybe like nineteen years ago, they are being made points 689 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 5: in this game. Come on, they are innocent, these strategical right. Yes, 690 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 5: take all your measures against the military industrial complex and 691 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 5: even maybe huaweis, but leave the people alone from this 692 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 5: and let's you know, people to people experience and student 693 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,399 Speaker 5: experience happen, and they will try to safeguard the long 694 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 5: term stability of the two countries because I mean, as 695 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 5: competitive as hawkish as the US Trump administration hopes to 696 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 5: be in China. Although I haven't read the latest read 697 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 5: out of the phone call, but nobody wants the two 698 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 5: countries to go to war, and to just prevent something catastrophic. 699 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 5: Against that, we need people to people, you know, dialogues, 700 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 5: and the Chinese leaders have been receiving US guests. For example, 701 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 5: the Vice President of China recently, just I think yesterday 702 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 5: or today, received the US nonamental players in China. The 703 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 5: Chinese leaders met for example, John L. Thornton, the former 704 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 5: CEO of gold Man SAX. They met Graham Allison, the 705 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 5: founding dam of the Harvard the Kennedy School. So you 706 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 5: have many news in China from Chinese leaders receiving non 707 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 5: governmental guests from the US officially reported in China legitimizing 708 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 5: the non governmental visits from the US to China, but 709 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 5: the other way around. I don't see any news, even 710 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 5: under Biden administration, that the US government openly receives you know, 711 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 5: non governmental visitors, scholars, entrepreneurs, and the Chinese. You know, 712 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 5: for example, she didn't be met with you know, dozens 713 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 5: of US companies and the Western and the European company CEOs. 714 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 5: So in that thing, the Chinese legitimizing the Western interactions 715 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 5: coming into China. But unfortunately, I'm not seeing any of 716 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,919 Speaker 5: that here here. What we have is like delegitimizing any 717 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 5: Chinese government and the non governmental people coming here. And 718 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 5: I think I've heard that, you know, the US government 719 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 5: is also meeting with non governmental Chinese actors, scholars well, 720 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 5: working in state around universities and think tanks, but they're 721 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 5: not saying anything about that. And uh, and that's not 722 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 5: something very I think one. 723 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on odd Laws. Thank 724 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 2: you for doing your aid interview with us. This is 725 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 2: really fascinating. Really glad we got to chat before you 726 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 2: left town. And I hope we continue reading your work. 727 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 2: I hope you're going to keep doing pechronology. Yes, definitely, 728 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 2: that's fantastic because I think for a lot of us 729 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 2: here it's a very useful resource, those of us who 730 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 2: don't speak Chinese or those of us who don't know 731 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 2: who the names that we should actually be paying attention to, 732 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 2: so really appreciate it. And safe travels home. 733 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 5: Thank you. I'm truly grateful for the opportunity. Thank you 734 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 5: to Tracy and John. And I hope maybe not just 735 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 5: for me, but for Chinese students it's odious not goodbye 736 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 5: real quickly. 737 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 2: Has there been a change in perception the desirability of 738 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 2: coming here. 739 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 5: If the Chinese students don't face the restrictions, they certainly still. 740 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 4: Want to come here. 741 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,240 Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Thank you, my planer. 742 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 2: First of all, really enjoyed that conversation. It is hard 743 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 2: for me, you know, this sort of really aggressive attempt 744 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 2: to no longer have American universities be a sort of 745 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 2: destination for many of the world's most you know, talented individuals. 746 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 2: It's hard for me to imagine that not being sort 747 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,479 Speaker 2: of like a pretty big hit to both the US 748 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 2: economy and it's just sort of like standing. 749 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:30,240 Speaker 1: In the world. 750 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Zician's point about, well, you know, Chinese students 751 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,399 Speaker 3: who come to America for their education, they largely go 752 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 3: back to China with fond memories of America. I think 753 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 3: the idea that America wouldn't value that is really indicative 754 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 3: of how much less we seem to be valuing soft 755 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 3: power nowadays. It seems like that kind of diplomacy just 756 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 3: isn't as popular as it once was, And so you're 757 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 3: seeing people like the Trump administrations say like, well, why 758 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 3: should we be doing this, You don't get anything out 759 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 3: of it. But then people like Zishen will say, well, 760 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 3: you actually do get something out of it. You get 761 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,280 Speaker 3: better relations, and you get that sort of cultural understanding 762 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 3: and that soft diplomacy. 763 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 2: I do wonder the degree to which the American public 764 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,359 Speaker 2: has been sold on the benefits of so called soft power. Right, So, 765 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 2: like a lot of people are saying American influence abroad, 766 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 2: American ideals, what America stands for for freedom and almost 767 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 2: in so many other countries, or maybe did up until recently. 768 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 2: I know, global perceptions have changed, et cetera. But then 769 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 2: I think, you know, maybe there's another argument. It's like, oh, 770 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 2: that's great that all these countries see as a beacon 771 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 2: of freedom or whatever. 772 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 4: What do I get out of that? 773 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 2: How does that benefit me? And I think when you 774 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 2: look at some of the political turns, perhaps the case 775 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 2: hasn't been made to the US public in a very 776 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 2: compelling way from the people who believe in sort of 777 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 2: liberal internationalism that the average citizen in the US actually 778 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,800 Speaker 2: should care at all about how the rest of the 779 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 2: world views us. 780 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 3: Look, everyone needs to travel more if they can. 781 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 5: That's what I say. 782 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 3: You need to go to a place that loves America, 783 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 3: and then you need to go, I don't know, to 784 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 3: the Middle East or something and talk to someone that 785 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 3: hates America and see what the difference is. There's a 786 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 3: big difference. 787 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 2: This is a really good perspective and take Okay, shall 788 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,399 Speaker 2: we leave it there. Let's leave it there. 789 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Oddlots podcast. I'm 790 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,879 Speaker 3: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and. 791 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 2: I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 792 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 2: Follow our guest Zishan Wong. He's at Zishanwong here and 793 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 2: check out his Pecknology substack. I do hope he sustains 794 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 2: it upon return to China. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez, 795 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 2: Ed Carman Arman, dash Ol Bennett at Dashbot at Kilbrooks 796 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,839 Speaker 2: at Kelbrooks. From Oddlots content, go to Bloomberg dot com 797 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 2: slash odd Lots. We have a daily newsletter and all 798 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 2: of our episodes, and you can chat about all of 799 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,320 Speaker 2: these topics twenty four to seven in our discord Discord 800 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 2: dot gg slash odd Lots. 801 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 3: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you like it 802 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 3: when we conduct exit interviews with Chinese students studying at Princeton, 803 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 3: then please leave us a positive review at your favorite 804 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 3: podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, 805 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,320 Speaker 3: you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. 806 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 3: All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel 807 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 3: on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.