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Speaker 1: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 5: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to trust me.

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Speaker 5: The podcast about cults, extreme belief, and the abusive power

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Speaker 5: from two dummies have actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc

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Speaker 5: and I'm Megan Elizabeth. Today our guest is Yanya Lalich.

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Speaker 5: She is a PhD researcher, author, and education education excuse me,

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Speaker 5: educators specializing in cults and extremist groups.

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Speaker 1: She clearly I am not education. She's the author. This

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Speaker 1: is so funny. Okay, I'm good, Okay, go on.

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Speaker 5: She's the author of a number of books, including her

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Speaker 5: most recent one, take Back Your Life, Recovering from Cults

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Speaker 5: and Abusive Relationships. She's going to tell us about her

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Speaker 5: own experience with a political cult called the Democratic Workers

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Speaker 5: Party in the seventies and eighties, the horrible ways in

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Speaker 5: which the members were expected to put the group over

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Speaker 5: their own family, and how she got out and got

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Speaker 5: her PhD.

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Speaker 1: Studying influence and control.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about how to tell the difference

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Speaker 3: between a legitimate political group and one that's leaning into

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Speaker 3: cult territory.

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Speaker 1: What bounded choice.

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Speaker 3: Means why you should always slow down even if you

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Speaker 3: feel strong emotions about a group or individual, and red

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Speaker 3: lads to look for in any relationship.

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Speaker 1: Red flags.

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Speaker 3: Wella, I fucked up too, so now we're even flags

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Speaker 3: red flags.

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Speaker 1: I think you also maybe said legitimate it, oh, legitimated

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Speaker 1: it legitimate.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you guys, we are a legitimate podcast hosts and

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Speaker 3: everything's fine.

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Speaker 1: It's ten am, and that is too early for us.

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Speaker 1: We cannot talk at ten am. Covid has murdered my brain. Okay,

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Speaker 1: she is so cool.

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Speaker 5: Well, I really love this interview. This is definitely one

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Speaker 5: of my favorite ones of late. She's just so concise

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Speaker 5: and her story is so compelling. Anyway, we love our podcast,

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Speaker 5: so let's let's talk about a greater podcast.

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Speaker 1: Is No, she's great.

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Speaker 5: So anyway, Megan, please inform me of the cultiest thing

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Speaker 5: that has happened to you this way.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I'm having a little bit of gult guilt.

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Speaker 3: Guilt Gold have a lot of guilt about it because

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Speaker 3: he's kind of my cult leader right now in a

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Speaker 3: weird way. But I had never watched Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen

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Speaker 3: Night Beer before in my life, and for some reason,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's new on Hulu or if

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Speaker 3: it's been on Hulu, but I found it on Hulu

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Speaker 3: and I've just been binge watching it. And he is

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Speaker 3: so charismatic, so handsome, and I genuinely think he's doing

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Speaker 3: great things and he's a good person.

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Speaker 1: But there is a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of aspects of that show that are a little bit

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Speaker 3: cult leader e with him.

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Speaker 1: Hmm, I've never watched it. Please tell me more.

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Speaker 3: Well, Okay, he comes in and he's this authority above

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Speaker 3: anything that breaks you down and then builds you back

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Speaker 3: up and kind of these sometimes manipulative ways.

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Speaker 1: So mmm, you know, I'm in the cults.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad to be in the cult. I love him.

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Speaker 3: I think he's really very handsome as well. Uh So,

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Speaker 3: I'm all good with it. But it has been striking

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Speaker 3: me lately that this is kind of fucked up.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I feel like someone was just telling me about this.

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Speaker 5: So does he like is that the one where he

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Speaker 5: like shows up at your restaurant and he's like, this

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Speaker 5: is why this is bad. Your restaurant sucks. Yeah, uh

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Speaker 5: huh okay, and I'm going to make it better.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Interesting because like in theory that's like, that could be

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Speaker 5: a really constructive thing, but it seems dangerous territory.

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Speaker 3: I feel you definitely a narcissist for sure, So already

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Speaker 3: narcissist plus people who need help equals sometimes some some

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff that I'm like, Yeah, I don't like it,

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Speaker 3: but for the most part, it's still on board. Definitely

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Speaker 3: be watching it all night.

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Speaker 1: Are any celebrities not narcissists?

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's a probably Natalie Portman, Okay, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't seem like a narcissist.

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Speaker 5: I feel like Sarah Silverman seems like not a narcissist,

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Speaker 5: but she isn't.

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Speaker 1: Also, she's not like a megastar, you know, right right.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes I suspect, you know, sometimes maybe they're all Maybe

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Speaker 5: there's a reason they're super famous.

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Speaker 6: There is a.

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Speaker 3: Reason always for everything, so that might just be it.

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Speaker 5: Is this just the excuse I make for myself for

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Speaker 5: not being super famous yet, because I'm not a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: If you, if it works, use it. No, it's okay.

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Speaker 1: I don't need to be that famous.

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Speaker 5: I just want to respected in my field, Okay, Okay, Lola,

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Speaker 5: and you are and you should be your amazing, what's

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Speaker 5: the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 1: It's also it also involves watching something.

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Speaker 5: However, I've only watched one of the episodes, but I

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Speaker 5: watched the first episode of Pray, Oh Kill.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen this?

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Speaker 2: Ye?

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Speaker 4: I haven't even heard of it. What is it?

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Speaker 5: One of our fans actually tweeted at us about it,

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Speaker 5: excited for us to talk about it. So maybe we

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Speaker 5: should watch the whole thing and talk about it when

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Speaker 5: I've actually seen it or both of us have. But

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Speaker 5: it's a Swedish documentary about this murder that happened.

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Speaker 1: I think in the early two thousands.

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Speaker 5: There was like a Pentecostal church, like a very small congregation,

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Speaker 5: and one of the girls murdered like the pastor's wife.

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Speaker 1: Oh but here's the thing.

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Speaker 5: She was getting text messages that she believed were coming

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Speaker 5: from God telling her that it was time to like

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Speaker 5: go through with this murder and like get rid of

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Speaker 5: this woman. What.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there are.

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Speaker 5: Five more episodes, so clearly there's a lot more information

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Speaker 5: to come. It's like very complicated. I think there was

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Speaker 5: like the priest was above her, but then he's saying

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Speaker 5: that there's someone above him and it's too early for

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Speaker 5: me to know if he's telling the truth or not.

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Speaker 5: But every multi layered power dynamics going on that resulted

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Speaker 5: in a murder and also an injury of a man

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Speaker 5: who did not die fortunately, but the pastor himself is

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Speaker 5: like in the documentary. So I'm like, Okay, this fucking juicy.

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Speaker 5: I can't wait.

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Speaker 3: I'm just wondering, like, what computer program do you have

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Speaker 3: to like get a phone number that somebody is like

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Speaker 3: this is God.

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Speaker 1: But it's very strange. Well, it just was.

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Speaker 5: It was like getting a text bunch from like five

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Speaker 5: six to two or something, I think, but it just

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Speaker 5: like doesn't say what the phone number is, right, But wow,

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Speaker 5: what's weird is as I was watching it, I was like,

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Speaker 5: oh yeah, I could see that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I was like, like mysterious text messages.

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Speaker 5: I could totally see getting caught up in like if

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Speaker 5: you don't know where they're coming from, and they're saying

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Speaker 5: such extreme things and they were kind of confirming things

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Speaker 5: she'd already been thinking.

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Speaker 1: And how could they know that?

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Speaker 5: You know, truly, technology is such a tool for indoctrination

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Speaker 5: in ways we never even imagined that.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I don't think I'm in any text cults though,

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Speaker 5: are you.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: I do get this eyebrow lady that I once went to.

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Speaker 3: She's in some pretty crazy texts out sometimes, but other

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Speaker 3: than that, I'm good.

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Speaker 5: I've gotten some insane dms, but fortunately no one has

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Speaker 5: found my phone number yet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the dms can can get a little bit wild.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Well, shall we talk to younga now?

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Speaker 1: Yes, all right, let's do it. Welcome to the show,

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Speaker 1: Yanya Lalich.

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Speaker 2: No, thank you, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 5: So, first of all, you are wildly accomplished in cult

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Speaker 5: related academia. Can you just tell us a little bit

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Speaker 5: about your academic background and what you study or studied.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna cult myself, and then when I

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Speaker 2: really had my BA band, because I joined when I

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Speaker 2: was thirty, but when I got out, I was forty one,

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Speaker 2: and I thought about grad school, but it took me

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Speaker 2: about ten years to actually make the decision. So I studied.

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Speaker 2: It's actually a multidisciplinary program, but my emphasis was in

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Speaker 2: sociology and my dissertation was a comparative study of the

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Speaker 2: cult that I was in and the Heaven's Gate cult.

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Speaker 2: If you remember.

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Speaker 5: Oh, yes, we interviewed a former Heaven's Gate member.

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Speaker 2: That's when I sort of developed my theory of bounded choice.

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Speaker 2: And so the user friendly version of my dissertation was

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Speaker 2: published by University of California Press in a book called

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Speaker 2: Bounded Choice. So after I graduated I with my PhD.

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Speaker 2: I got a teaching job at one of the California

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Speaker 2: State universities and taught in the sociology department until about,

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Speaker 2: I guess three years ago now that I fully retired

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Speaker 2: and moved away from Chico to the Bay Area. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've been studying cults for about thirty years.

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Speaker 4: Thirty five years, true expert.

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Speaker 2: I've seen a lot. Yeah, I've heard a lot of

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Speaker 2: sad stories.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine.

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Speaker 5: Well, let's start with your own personal cult experience. Can

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Speaker 5: you tell us about the Democratic Workers Party please?

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Speaker 2: Okay. So it was the mid seventies and I had

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Speaker 2: just come back from living on an island in Spain

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Speaker 2: for about four years.

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Speaker 4: Cool, yeah, the end of my hippy years.

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Speaker 2: And I ended up in San Francisco because a college

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Speaker 2: friend was living there and had a room in her

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Speaker 2: house and blah blah blah. You know, I was new

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Speaker 2: in town. I was meeting new people, and I met

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Speaker 2: a friend of a friend who we used to have

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Speaker 2: coffee together. You know, we'd run into each other in

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Speaker 2: the street and sale, let's go have coffee. And so

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Speaker 2: people on the left at that time, it's just like

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Speaker 2: the Vietnam War had ended, and so a lot of

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Speaker 2: people on the left were trying to figure out what

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Speaker 2: to do next, what should we focus on. So in

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Speaker 2: my discussions with her, at one point she said, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: we have a study group. Wouldn't you like to join

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Speaker 2: our study group? And I thought, well, that sounded interesting.

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Speaker 2: I'd beat new people, and I love to read. I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of an intellectual type. So the purpose of the

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Speaker 2: study group we read a lot of like revolutionary leaders.

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Speaker 2: And after about a month or so, she asked to

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Speaker 2: meet with me again. And so the point of the

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Speaker 2: study group was to get you to see that in

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Speaker 2: order to make any kind of real social change you

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Speaker 2: needed to have a disciplined Marxist Leninist organization. And then

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Speaker 2: at the time, you know, there were all the examples

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Speaker 2: of Cuba and Vietnam and Angola and these different countries

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Speaker 2: who had, you know, fought off big powers. So they

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Speaker 2: met with me again and said, oh, well, what are

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Speaker 2: you learning? And I said, well, I'm learning that you

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Speaker 2: need to have a discipline blah blah blah. And she said, well,

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Speaker 2: what if we told you we have one? But you know,

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Speaker 2: and so she said, yeah, we have this international organization

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Speaker 2: very diverse, which is all a lie, and you know,

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Speaker 2: would you be interested in joining? So I thought, you know,

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Speaker 2: I was, you know, thirty years old. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do something with my life. I wanted to change society

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Speaker 2: and fight racism and sexism and all that. So I said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'd be interested. So then, you know, this is the

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Speaker 2: kind of bait and switch. So then she said, oh,

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Speaker 2: well here, first you have to fill out this questionnaire

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Speaker 2: and then we'll get back to you. So in the questionnaire,

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Speaker 2: of course, it asked me everything about my life, you know,

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Speaker 2: my parents, my bank accounts, my passport number, everything I'd

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Speaker 2: ever done. Really, wow, they had, you know, they had

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Speaker 2: all the goods on you at that point. So then

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Speaker 2: I joined. I really didn't know what I was joining.

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Speaker 2: I was pretty quickly moved up into leadership positions, in

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Speaker 2: part because I was from the working class and most

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Speaker 2: people at that point weren't and so the leader kind

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Speaker 2: of held me up as a model.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting.

242
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Speaker 2: So it was a very disciplined organization. We had to

243
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Speaker 2: take on new names. No one was supposed to know

244
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Speaker 2: anyone's real name. We had parking regulations, all kinds of

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Speaker 2: security regulations, and in the beginning we were underground, no

246
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Speaker 2: one was supposed to know we existed. And then we

247
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Speaker 2: surfaced and sort of had these different front groups that

248
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Speaker 2: we used for recruiting, like either hospital workers or other

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Speaker 2: union organizations and factories or community organizations, and that's how

250
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Speaker 2: we'd recruit. And you know, we worked twenty hour days,

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Speaker 2: seven days a week, year after year. It was completely exhausting.

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Speaker 1: WHOA.

253
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Speaker 2: We spent a lot of time sitting around in circles

254
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Speaker 2: and criticizing someone for some usually some trumped up thing.

255
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Speaker 2: Oh no, and of course yeah, and of course you know,

256
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Speaker 2: you had to participate in the criticism otherwise you got criticized.

257
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Speaker 2: And so this went on all the time. So you know,

258
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Speaker 2: it meant you were living a very anxious life. You know,

259
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Speaker 2: you never knew when the shit was going to hit

260
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Speaker 2: the fans, so to speak, and so it was very

261
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Speaker 2: stressful and exhausting. And I did that for ten and

262
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Speaker 2: a half years.

263
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Speaker 1: Was there a particular leader at the top of it.

264
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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was. She was actually a sociologist. She had

265
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Speaker 2: been a professor who never got tenure anywhere, and then

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Speaker 2: some of her former students had invited her to San

267
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Speaker 2: Francisco to be part of their study groups, and that's

268
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Speaker 2: how she kind of formed the first thing. And she

269
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Speaker 2: was very, very domineering, very self ssured, narcissistic, you know,

270
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Speaker 2: the typical cult leader type. She had several homes that

271
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Speaker 2: we put her in, and she was an alcoholic, which

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Speaker 2: most people didn't know. So those of us in the

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Speaker 2: inner circle kind of knew this and kept it from

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Speaker 2: most of the membership. And you know, I know, I

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Speaker 2: would rationalize, well, you know, she's under so much stress

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Speaker 2: or at one point I actually said, well at least

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Speaker 2: we haven't killed.

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Speaker 4: Anyone yet, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: And you know, things like that that you would use

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Speaker 2: to rationalize her behavior. Yeah, it was grim. It was grim.

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Speaker 5: Wow, that's a really interesting type of cults. We haven't

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Speaker 5: really had anyone from political groups on. And there's you know,

283
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Speaker 5: there's a really big resurgence right now of Marxists who

284
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Speaker 5: want to sort of overthrow the system, which I totally

285
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Speaker 5: get and I identify with a lot of those same goals.

286
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Speaker 5: But how could the layman tell the difference between like

287
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Speaker 5: a political organization that is like legitimate, genuinely benevolent, yeah,

288
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Speaker 5: and one that's going down a dark path.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think there would be a number

290
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Speaker 2: of factors. I mean, one is if the group is transparent,

291
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Speaker 2: if you know where the money's going or where the

292
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Speaker 2: money's coming from. If you're able to question and your

293
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 2: questions are actually answered. Typically, especially when you're joining, like

294
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Speaker 2: you might ask a question and it'll get turned back

295
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,720
Speaker 2: on you, you know, or they'll say something like, well,

296
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Speaker 2: that's a great question, but you don't know enough yet.

297
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Speaker 2: You know, wait another month and then ask it's that question,

298
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Speaker 2: And of course a month later you don't remember the

299
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Speaker 2: question because by then your brain is scrambled. So you know,

300
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Speaker 2: if they're answering questions, if you can challenge the leadership,

301
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,200
Speaker 2: if there are genuinely democratic discussions and democratic decision making,

302
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 2: you know, those would all be signs. You know, if

303
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 2: there are very strict rules like who you should live

304
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Speaker 2: with or who you should partner with, or things like that,

305
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 2: you know, those are usually signs of a group that

306
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Speaker 2: may not yet be a cult, but is a bit

307
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Speaker 2: too controlling.

308
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Speaker 1: When did you realize that you were in a cult?

309
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Speaker 1: Or did you not realize till you left?

310
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Speaker 2: No, Well, there are a couple things that happened. The

311
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Speaker 2: first one was I was in for about five years

312
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Speaker 2: and my mother. I was always very close with my mother,

313
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Speaker 2: who was divorced, and she was back in Milwaukee, and

314
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Speaker 2: at one point I found out she was in the hospital,

315
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Speaker 2: and so I borrowed money and got permission to go there.

316
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Speaker 2: And she had a brain tumor leoblastoma, which is the

317
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Speaker 2: worst kind of brain tumor. So they operated and I

318
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 2: stayed with an aunt, and then they said, well, we'll

319
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Speaker 2: take it out, but it'll grow right back, you know.

320
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Speaker 2: So she has maybe four to six months to live.

321
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Speaker 2: And so it got to be the time when they

322
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Speaker 2: were going to discharge her from the hospital and she

323
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Speaker 2: really had nowhere to go. My brother wouldn't take her in.

324
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Speaker 2: My sister was problematic, and so I called back to

325
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Speaker 2: California and asked my leadership. I said, look, I'd really

326
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Speaker 2: like to have a leave of athletes and stay here,

327
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Speaker 2: you know, till my mother passes. You know, they say

328
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Speaker 2: it's going to be four to six months. And she said, oh, well,

329
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Speaker 2: you know, I'll have to ask the Queen Bee. So

330
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Speaker 2: she called me back the next day and said, oh,

331
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Speaker 2: we have a great idea, bring your mother out to

332
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Speaker 2: California and she can live with you. Well, we lived

333
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Speaker 2: in a very Serbian community. She was very old country

334
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Speaker 2: in a way, and I don't think i'd ever really

335
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,560
Speaker 2: been out of Milwaukee, and was you know, very enmeshed

336
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Speaker 2: with her church, the Serbian arts, that's church. So I said, oh,

337
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,160
Speaker 2: that's a great idea. You know. Of course I complied,

338
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 2: and I came back. One of my roommates moved out,

339
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Speaker 2: and my aunt put her on the plane to come

340
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Speaker 2: out there. And so she was, you know, living in

341
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Speaker 2: my house and was fairly disabled. And so I would

342
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 2: go to work every day at like six seven in

343
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,520
Speaker 2: the morning, come home at eleven twelve one. I rarely

344
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 2: saw her. And so at one point I said, look,

345
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,359
Speaker 2: you know, you had me bring my mother out here,

346
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Speaker 2: but I never could see her, and they said, oh,

347
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Speaker 2: well you can go home and have dinner with her.

348
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Speaker 2: So I'd got forty five minutes to go home and

349
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Speaker 2: have dinner with her. Then they decided she should work

350
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Speaker 2: for the organization.

351
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Speaker 1: Oh no.

352
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Speaker 2: So they had someone pick her up and take her

353
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Speaker 2: to one of the front group offices called the Grassroots Alliance,

354
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,360
Speaker 2: where we did a lot of electoral work. And she

355
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 2: was she was filing. I don't know, I mean, you know,

356
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Speaker 2: they cut a lot of her brain out. You know,

357
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Speaker 2: I don't know how she was doing. You know, she

358
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,639
Speaker 2: was her head was wrapped, you know, she had a

359
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:06,000
Speaker 2: wig and oh and so she you know, someone would

360
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 2: take bring her there, bring her back home. So it

361
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 2: was about six weeks later. I came home one night

362
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 2: and I opened my mother's bedroom door and she was

363
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 2: lying dead on the floor. And I was just I

364
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 2: was just devastated. And so I called my best friend

365
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 2: who I had recruited, and she came over, and then

366
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 2: I called my leadership. Well, of course I called the

367
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 2: coroner and all of that. I mean, I was just shocked.

368
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 2: And so I called my leadership and I said, my

369
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,800
Speaker 2: mother just died and I'm going to have her body

370
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 2: flown home. And she said to me, well, you're not

371
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 2: going to the funeral, are you. And I looked at

372
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,400
Speaker 2: the phone and I thought, here, I am killing myself

373
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 2: twenty hours a day to supposedly build a better world,

374
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 2: and if this is the better world I'm creating that

375
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,880
Speaker 2: I'm being told I can't go to my mother's funeral.

376
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 2: Something's wrong here. So I said, no, I am going

377
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 2: to the funeral. It was the first time I really

378
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 2: like openly defied the organization. So then I went back

379
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 2: and I have absolutely so little memory of any of this.

380
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 2: I organized the whole funeral with my aunt, and afterwards,

381
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 2: in our tradition, we have a big dinner at the

382
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,440
Speaker 2: Serbian home, so you know, her sisters who were still living, came,

383
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,160
Speaker 2: relatives came from Florida, from all over. We had this

384
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 2: big dinner and I was just like freaked out. In

385
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 2: the middle of dinner, I got up to leave to

386
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 2: fly back to San Francisco, and I'm sure those people

387
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 2: were thinking, like the folks wrong with her. So I

388
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 2: got back and I was terrified. And of course the

389
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,919
Speaker 2: next day I was told to report to a meeting

390
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 2: and they had all the leadership. They had about forty

391
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 2: people lined up in a room and I was sitting

392
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 2: in a chair in front, and I was size for

393
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,680
Speaker 2: putting my mother ahead of the revolution.

394
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: Stop it, Oh my god.

395
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,639
Speaker 2: And so I was just criticized for hours sitting in

396
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 2: this chair, and we had small group meetings called branches.

397
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 2: I was assigned to go to every branch meeting and

398
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 2: tell them what I did and why it was wrong,

399
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 2: you know, as an example that you know they should

400
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 2: never do that.

401
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 3: Wow.

402
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 2: And then when anyone was like thinking of going home

403
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 2: or wanting to have a baby or whatever, I was

404
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 2: the person who got sent to talk them out of it. WHOA.

405
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 2: So after that I was completely miserable and I didn't

406
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: want to be there, but I couldn't figure out how

407
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 2: to leave. I was just paralyzed. And also from being

408
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 2: in the inner Circle, I had seen so much that

409
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,400
Speaker 2: you know, I knew that leader was fucked up, and

410
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: you know that decisions were very arbitrarian. So that added

411
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 2: to everything that I just wanted to get out. And

412
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 2: we were never to cry. So I would get up

413
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 2: every morning and take a shower and just cry my

414
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: eyes out, and then get in my God and then

415
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: get in my car to go to my facility. And

416
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 2: I would just wish that I'd be killed in a

417
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 2: car accident because it was the only way I could

418
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 2: see it getting out. Wow. And I lived like that

419
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 2: for five years oh, and then what happened is, which

420
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 2: is very rare, we finally had our revolution and we

421
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: overthrew our cult leader and we expelled her and we

422
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 2: dissolved the organization, and so everybody got out at the

423
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 2: same time.

424
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: Wow, how did that happen?

425
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was just one cog in the

426
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: wheel who had this traumatic experience, but there were others,

427
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 2: almost all in leadership, because even though we had privileges,

428
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 2: we also had either experienced or were witness of horrible things.

429
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 2: So people were just at their wits end and stressed.

430
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 2: And you know, one guy actually chewed a hole through

431
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 2: his hand just out of nervousness.

432
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 4: And oh, my god, she.

433
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 2: Was leaving the country. She used to like to go

434
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 2: to Bulgaria because it was Communist at the time, and

435
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: she thought that was heaven. And so she was leaving

436
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 2: the country, and the inner circle all got together and said,

437
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: we're in a cult. And we called together all the

438
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: members and told them what we knew. And it took

439
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,959
Speaker 2: three days to convince people that we were actually telling

440
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 2: the truth and not trying to just have a takeover.

441
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 2: So after I guess a week or ten days, then

442
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: we took a vote and voted unanimously to expel her

443
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 2: and to dissolve the organization.

444
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 5: Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, I've never heard of that happening.

445
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 4: It's amazing.

446
00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 2: What was her reaction? Oh, so when she came back, Yeah, yeah,

447
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: we picked a team of people to meet with her,

448
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: and one of the women wore a wire so that

449
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 2: we could all hear what went on. And so her

450
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: bodyguard went to pick her up, and the team got

451
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: to her house ahead of time and got rid of

452
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 2: all the guns, and she had a Rottweiler guard dog,

453
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 2: and they got all that stuff put away, and she

454
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: came home and she sat in her big leather lounge

455
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: chair and sort of wanted to know what was going on,

456
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: and so different people in the screw that I think

457
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: it was about seven people were trying to tell her,

458
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 2: you know, the party's over, you know, and she kind

459
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: of didn't get it. And at one point she pulled

460
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 2: out a cigarette and held up her cigarette, and we

461
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: did everything for her, right, So she held up her

462
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,719
Speaker 2: cigarette waiting for someone to come light her cigarette, and

463
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: no one got up to light her cigarette, and that's

464
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: when she got it. And then she like stood up

465
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: and threw down a cigarette and started screaming and like

466
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: how dare you? Blah blah. We were actually very nice

467
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: to her compared to how we handled people who were expelled.

468
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: But she was given a month to get out of

469
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: that house because a party member was paying the rent,

470
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 2: and we took whatever we could, but she had lots

471
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: of bank accounts in her name and stuff that we

472
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: couldn't touch, and that was it.

473
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 5: That's like a cartoon of an evil prince, just like

474
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 5: waiting for.

475
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: Someone to pull sicker on what.

476
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 4: That's crazy.

477
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 5: One thing I think that's especially interesting about her, or

478
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 5: just like worth noting at least, is that she was

479
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 5: a sociologist herself. So I would think that that would

480
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 5: just make people more likely to trust her and to

481
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 5: think that she understands sociology. She's an expert, so she

482
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 5: wouldn't create this kind of environment. But it just goes

483
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 5: to show that authority is irrelevant because people will abuse

484
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 5: their power regardless, right.

485
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,719
Speaker 2: And actually I mean it was to her advantage because

486
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: first of all, she was quite a bit older than

487
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: most of us, and you know, so she had this credential. Oh,

488
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: she was a PhD. She was doctor Marlene Dixon, and

489
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: and she could spout off. I remember the first lecture

490
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: I went to. You know, I was invited to this

491
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 2: special lecture, said it was just a select group of people.

492
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 2: In fact, at that point it was the whole organization.

493
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: It was like twenty five people, and we're sitting in

494
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 2: the living room and she's sitting up in a at

495
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 2: a desk and a chair, and she lectures for like

496
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: an hour and a half, and I was just like wow.

497
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 2: And then once I got my own PhD and started teaching,

498
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 2: I realized she was just teaching us like sociology one

499
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: oh one. You know, you know, but you know, you're

500
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: primed to think that, you know, this person is so

501
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: special and has so much special knowledge, you know, and

502
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: that's the task of the cult recruiters to like build

503
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 2: up this aura around the cult leader.

504
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, will you talk more about that.

505
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 5: Actually, I'm first of all, priming is just something I'm

506
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 5: so interested in general. The information you're exposed to in

507
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 5: advance absolutely colors the way that you experience something. What's

508
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 5: an example of a way that someone might prime you

509
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 5: to think that occult leader is a special person.

510
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it'll depend on the kind of group.

511
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: You know, in our case, you know, when I joined,

512
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: I didn't even know we had a leader. And then

513
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: once I was in, they said, oh, yeah, you know,

514
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: there's this woman. She's you know, a brilliant theoretician. She's

515
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: been published, she's a part of those she's like a

516
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: big name in the women's movement. And you know, the

517
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: women's movement was quite big at that time, the first wave,

518
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: and you know, so they built up who she was

519
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: so that it's called demand expectation. It's actually there's a

520
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 2: term for it that you you know, you're expecting this

521
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: person to be a certain way, so you kind of

522
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 2: convince yourself that that's what it is. And of course

523
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: if everyone else around you is ooing and eyeing, you know,

524
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: then if you think it's weird, like well there are

525
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: others there must be something I'm not getting, I better

526
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: ruina too if I want to be in this little

527
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: group right.

528
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: And right like vampers new clothes right.

529
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 2: And you know with the say the guru type, the

530
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 2: Eastern gurus, you know, they'll build you up by saying, oh,

531
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 2: you know, he has this special aura and when he

532
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: comes into the room, you'll see a light shining around

533
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: him and he'll lift himself up off the chair, and

534
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: you know, so again you're you have these heightened expectations,

535
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: and so you're primed to accept that this is really

536
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: a special human being, right.

537
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 5: And I think people might misunderstand that and think that

538
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 5: that's a conscious process, But it's like subconscious things happening

539
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 5: in your brain that make you actually experience it differently.

540
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: Right exactly. Plus, I think a lot of times when

541
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: we talk about cults, enough emphasis isn't given to the

542
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 2: importance of peer pressure. And you know, cults are groups,

543
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: they're social groups. And because that in any social group,

544
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: you're going to be influenced by the people around you, right,

545
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: And after we reach a certain age, we're far more

546
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 2: influenced by our peers or our social relationships than say,

547
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: our parents or whoever. Right, So you're in this situation

548
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 2: that is relatively closed to begin with. You know what

549
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: I call a self sealing system. It's kind of closed

550
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: in on it self. You've begun to accept these people

551
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 2: as your new family in a way. Right, So if

552
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: everyone is doing or acting or behaving a certain way,

553
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: you're going to go along with that subconsciously. Really, in

554
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: many ways, it's no different than say you go to

555
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: visit someone and you see all their shoes off at

556
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: the front door, Well, what are you going to do?

557
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: You're going to take your shoes off automatically without thinking

558
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: about it because you realize that's the norm there, right,

559
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: all this kind of right when in Rome do as

560
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: the Romans do, right, And that's it's a very powerful

561
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: method of influence. As much talk as there is about

562
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: the leader of these groups, I do believe the peer

563
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: pressure and that our peers within the group have far

564
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: more influence on us and farmer control over us in

565
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: a way, And especially whoever is in those leadership positions,

566
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: and they have what we call charisma by proxy, right

567
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: because they're endowed with this privilege to lead by the leader.

568
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: You honor them as well and you accept them as well.

569
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: So it's really layers of the structure that are keeping

570
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: you confined and constrained. I mean, some people never meet

571
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: the leader, you know. Even in our group, as small

572
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: as it was, there were people who got recruited towards

573
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: the end who never saw her. They only heard about

574
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: her from us, praising her and saying how brilliant she was.

575
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: And that's common in a lot of groups.

576
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 5: Right, like an example of that would be like Alison

577
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 5: mack inexiom or what was her.

578
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: Name, Oh, Nancy Saltsman, Nancy, Well, Nancy Saltsman was very powerful.

579
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I believe Keith Vaniery couldn't have done any

580
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: of it without Nancy Salzman.

581
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 4: Really for sure.

582
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: I really regard them as kind of co leaders. She

583
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: created the whole thing is she She knew the psychological

584
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: principles to use on people.

585
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 5: Sounds similar to Heavens Gate. I always thought heavens Gate

586
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 5: was a one man show, and it wasn't until we

587
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 5: you know, learning more about it from the dock and

588
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 5: from talking to our guest, that I realized, No, it

589
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 5: was actually definitely a dynamic duo until the woman died.

590
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. And when it was a dynamic duo, she was

591
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: the more powerful one. She was really the leader. She

592
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: was the one who came up with all those exercises

593
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: they did, and he you know, in a sense, she

594
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: recruited him and she was his cult leader.

595
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 4: Right Exactly.

596
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 5: I'm learning about so many more women cult leaders than

597
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 5: I never knew existed before doing this podcast.

598
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought it was.

599
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: A very you know, male dominated.

600
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 5: Right exactly. Can you talk about bounded choice. And what

601
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 5: that means sure.

602
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: The way I see it is we join these groups

603
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: or get recruited into these groups that have four important parts,

604
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: which are the charismatic authority, what I call the transcendent

605
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: belief system, and then these interlocking systems of influence and

606
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: systems of control. And the important part of the belief

607
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: system is that within that belief system, there's a requirement

608
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: that you have to go through a personal transformation. You

609
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: have to change in order to be a part of

610
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: that group and on the path to whatever salvation they're

611
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: offering you. Right. So as you begin to internalize all

612
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: the rules and regulations and the devotion and the dedication,

613
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: and it becomes your sole purpose for living, you have,

614
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: in a sense, become like a little microcosm of the cult.

615
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: You have so internalized everything that at a certain point

616
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: someone doesn't even need to tell you what to do.

617
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: You know exactly what to do, right. And that's why

618
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: cults can send people out, you know, wherever to recruit

619
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: or run businesses or whatever, right, because they're that what

620
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: I call resocialization. Some people say brainwashing. I find that

621
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: to be a controversial word, so I kind of stay

622
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: away from it, although I believe in it. But essentially

623
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: what's happening is that you've been resocialized into this new

624
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: person who is the perfect or trying to be perfect

625
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: cult member, right, member of this closed world. Once you're

626
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: in this closed world, which I call the bounded reality,

627
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: and you've gotten to that point where you cannot imagine

628
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: life outside of the group, right, at that point, you

629
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: enter into this sort of mindset or state of mind

630
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: called bounded choice, which means that, yes, you have choices

631
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: to make. I mean, in most cults you have some

632
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 2: quote freedoms. You know, maybe you want to buy a car,

633
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: and nobody's going to tell you what kind of car

634
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: to buy, or nobody's going to tell you what colors

635
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: to paint your house, or nobody's going to tell you

636
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: what to buy the grocery store, and some cults they will,

637
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: but not in others. Right, So you have these small

638
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: things that you can make decisions about that just kind

639
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: of go along with the norm. But if there's ever

640
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: a big decision like should I leave or you know,

641
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: should I report this to the authorities or whatever, big

642
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: decisions are confined by this bounded reality. In that again,

643
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: you know exactly the decision you need to make to

644
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: stay in the good graces of the group, so that

645
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: your free will, because especially in court cases and in

646
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: the study of religion, free will comes up all the time. So, yes,

647
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: you have quote free will. Nobody's holding a gun to

648
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: your head in most cases. But your free will, in

649
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: my opinion, is altered by the will of the leader

650
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: and the will of the group, so that your decisions

651
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: are confined and constrained because of that.

652
00:33:59,000 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 4: Totally.

653
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: Sometimes I see it as the illusion of choice because

654
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: people think, oh, I have all these freedoms. Even in

655
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: the Heaven's Gate case where they all sat outside and

656
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: two's and said their goodbyees, you know the goodbye tape, right,

657
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: they're saying, you know, I'm doing this of my own

658
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: free will. No, over time, your free will has been

659
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 2: altered and you're now functioning under the will of the group. Right,

660
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: So I think it's it's an illusion of choice.

661
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: But how do you tell the difference?

662
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 5: I feel like this question comes up a lot where

663
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 5: you're life. Well, they're an adult and they're making the

664
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 5: decisions they want to make. How can we tell whether

665
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 5: someone whether their choice is bounded or not.

666
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: Well, I think whenever you're making a decision that's against

667
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: your own self interest, it's probably not a valid choice

668
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: made solely by you. I mean, you have to remember

669
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 2: that once you're in a cultic situation or coercive situation.

670
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: We see this even in domestic violent situations coercive relationships.

671
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: Once you're in that situation, you're really no longer functioning

672
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 2: as you or who you used to be. Your whole

673
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 2: value system in moral code has been altered, has been

674
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: changed to coincide with the moral code or the a

675
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: moral code of the leader. Right, So that that's why

676
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: people do things that we can't understand when when we're

677
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: on the outside. Why they kill, why they rob banks,

678
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: why they give away their children, why they let their

679
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 2: children be beaten, whatever it is. You know, people always

680
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 2: say how could a mother let that happen? Right? Because

681
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: that mother is a victim as well, and is functioning

682
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: as a good cult member and sees no other option. Right.

683
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: So it's complex, and I know it's difficult for most

684
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: people to understand because they say, well, you know, why

685
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: didn't you walk away?

686
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 1: I hate that question.

687
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: Why don't the abused women walk away?

688
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 4: Right?

689
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: Right?

690
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: And that you know, and that's the kind of guilt

691
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: and shame aim that people feel when they get out.

692
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: You know, so many say to me, why didn't I

693
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: leave sooner? Why didn't I see this sooner? Right? Well,

694
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 2: you couldn't, right, there's a powerful system imposed on you.

695
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: Of course useduccumb to it.

696
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: I've read something you said once that was like everybody

697
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 3: knew we were a call except us, and yeah, yeah.

698
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 2: They used to write articles about us in the San

699
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: Francisco papers and they'd say, yeah, you know that we

700
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: were Gaga or Marlene Dixon, and you know, we were

701
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: just And this is funny. This is a good example

702
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: of how people don't understand how they're perceived by the

703
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: outside world because their minds are so close and their

704
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: vision is so close. We took all those articles that

705
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: were written about us saying that we were a cult,

706
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: and we put them all together in a little booklet

707
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: and we sold it on the street for twenty five

708
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: cents to show people how we were being red baited, right,

709
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: that they were persecuting us. But basically, we just gave

710
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: the citizens of San Francisco all the sammunition, you know,

711
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: And somehow the leader thought that was a great idea.

712
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 2: It's like, oh wow. Or the example of when my

713
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 2: best friend who I recruited at one point in the cult,

714
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: we were roommates, and I told you we had to

715
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 2: have party names, different names. So my name was Emma

716
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: and her name was Lillian, our party names. Her mother

717
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: was coming to visit, and they let her mother visit

718
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 2: because she was an attorney and they wanted to they

719
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: gave her. They let her do that. So her mother

720
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: was coming to visit to stay with us for like

721
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: a week. Her mother knew me before the cult, she

722
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: had met me before the cult. She knew my name

723
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: was Yania, So her mother came to stay with us,

724
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: and the whole time, my friend whose name his real

725
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 2: name is Polly, she called me Yanya around her mom.

726
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: Of course, after her mom left, I turned her into security.

727
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I said that she broke security because

728
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: she used my real name in front of her mother.

729
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 4: Whow knowing full.

730
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, her mother would have thought she was

731
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: crazy if she was calling the Emma. It's like, who

732
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: the hell's Emma?

733
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 3: Right?

734
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: But that's how distorted my own thinking was.

735
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: Mmmm. That reminds me of Catherine from Nexim.

736
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 4: Don't you think.

737
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: Lola Oh Kathinn Oxenburg. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, where you

738
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: know her mom was.

739
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 4: Like India, India.

740
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. When you look back and you think you

741
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: see what the things you did, it's like whoa I

742
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: was in another universe? Right.

743
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 5: The whole getting members to turn on each other for

744
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 5: fear of punishment if they don't think is just so sneaky.

745
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 5: It's such a good tactic if you want to keep

746
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 5: people under control.

747
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: Right, And that's I mean, most groups will make a

748
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: point of, you know, breaking up friendships, breaking up spouses,

749
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: you know, branch branch Davidians did that, all kinds of

750
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: groups having children raised by other people and not their

751
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: birth parents. It's all to to disconnect people from each

752
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: other so that your only connection is to the leader.

753
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 5: Right do you think that kind of thing is like,

754
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 5: for example, the woman who led your group, do you

755
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 5: think that that was a conscious decision on her choice

756
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 5: or do you think she just subconsciously like had a

757
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 5: feel for the fact that that would work.

758
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: Well in her case? She actually, as part of her

759
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 2: getting her own PhD, she actually studied behavior control programs.

760
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: Oh no way, yeah, And she used to have me

761
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 2: I worked at a bookstore and Another woman in the

762
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: group was a librarian and she used to have us

763
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: get books for her on that topic of behavior control.

764
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: But I think for many FAULT leaders, they probably don't

765
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: study it, even though in my book Take Back Your Life,

766
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: we talk about how it looks like they go to

767
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: the cookie Cutter Messiah school because they all do the

768
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 2: same thing. But I think, you know, when you're a narcissist,

769
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: or you're a control freak, or you're a psychopath like

770
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: keithrian Ni, I think these things come to you naturally. Yeah,

771
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: And they've learned from seeing what other group leaders have done,

772
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 2: and most of it is basic social psychology. In most cases,

773
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 2: they're not you know, they're not giving you drugs, they're

774
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: you know, they're using basic social psychological pressures.

775
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: Right.

776
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 5: So wild the abusive relationship thing, I want to touch

777
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 5: on that really fast because it comes up all the

778
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 5: time colds get compared to them. But from an expert,

779
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 5: I would love to hear maybe some signs that you're

780
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 5: in a coercive or abusive relationship versus in an entire cult.

781
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, some of the more obvious

782
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 2: ones that probably most people are aware of is if

783
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: if your partner is separating you from family and friends.

784
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes women are told to quit their jobs

785
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 2: and just stay home if you're being blamed for everything,

786
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: and you know, you're gas lit to the point where

787
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: you think everything's your fault. Actually, last year I wrote

788
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 2: a memoir, and part of writing the memoir, I dug

789
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: out journals that I had which I didn't even realize

790
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 2: I had, and I realized that I was in an

791
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: abusive relationship back in the sixties when I was a hippie.

792
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: So I was in an abusive relationship with this guy

793
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: who used to throw furniture.

794
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 4: At me, hit me, oh wow.

795
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 2: You know, while we were taking LSD and you know,

796
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,439
Speaker 2: all this stuff.

797
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: And whoa whoa nightmare.

798
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 2: And in my diary, in my journal that I read

799
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: the whole time, I'm writing, I have to be a

800
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: better woman for him. It's all my fault. I'm the

801
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: one who sets him off all the time. So you know,

802
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 2: if you're having those kinds of feelings, you're probably in

803
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: an abusive relationship. Everything is never always all your fault, right, right, right?

804
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: A relationship takes two people, and I think you know

805
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: the kind of either an insistence on towels have to

806
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 2: be folded exactly the same way, or dinner has to

807
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: be done exactly the same way and on the table.

808
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: You know, all those kinds of little petty little things

809
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: that we hear about that these partners freak out about

810
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: and start throwing dishes across the room. All of that

811
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: should be a sign that this is not a healthy relationship, right,

812
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't think every abusive relationship is

813
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: not necessarily a cult. It can become a cult. There

814
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 2: are one on one cults or very small family cults,

815
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: but basically the same techniques are being used to control

816
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: and confine you, you know, get you to obey.

817
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 3: Basically, what do you think the first step is to

818
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 3: getting out?

819
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 2: Run out the door? No, I think it's it's obviously

820
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: very hard to get out. Do whatever you can to

821
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 2: stay in touch with family or friends, and sometimes that's

822
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: a dangerous thing to do if the partner finds out.

823
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: But I think you have to have a lifeline. And

824
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: I think for friends or family who has someone in

825
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 2: that situation, it's important to be that lifeline. It's important

826
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: to always let the person know that you're a safe

827
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 2: haven for that person. They can come to you anytime.

828
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 2: A night or day, and you won't humiliate them, you

829
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: won't say, see, I told you he was a bad guy.

830
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: Just take them in and love them and hug them

831
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 2: and let them sleep and let them kneel. Right. But

832
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: I think in those cases, in many ways, are much

833
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 2: harder to break free from than a cult where there's

834
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: lots of people and right in one on one relationship,

835
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 2: everything's focused on you. So I think it's much harder

836
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: to break away from that. You probably not even alone

837
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: that much. And then, especially when there's children involved, there's

838
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: always so much fear about what's going to happen to

839
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: the children. And as in cults, what happens is you

840
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: lose your self esteem, you lose your sense of self,

841
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: you lose your self confidence. So you can't imagine you

842
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: could actually get up and go out the door and

843
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 2: that you'd be safe, right, because you're so crushed.

844
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

845
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 5: I was in an emotionally abusive relationship, which I took

846
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 5: a really long time to be able to describe it

847
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 5: that way because I was like, well, he never hit me,

848
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 5: He never hit me, that doesn't count.

849
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: Weilled someone, right exactly.

850
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 5: He just Actually the other day I was talking to

851
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 5: a male friend about it, and I was sort of

852
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 5: describing very briefly what happened, and he summarized it by saying,

853
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 5: so he was jealous, and I was like, no, he

854
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 5: wasn't jealous, Like, yes, he was jealous, but he was

855
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 5: literally telling me I couldn't hang out with certain friends.

856
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 5: I started to feel like I couldn't tell anyone what

857
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 5: was going on. I kept thinking that if I could

858
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 5: just find the right words to convince him of X,

859
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 5: Y or Z, then he would be better. I just

860
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 5: needed to do a better job of whatever it was

861
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 5: that I was doing. You know, it's not just like

862
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 5: and yes, he also yelled and would be very hostile

863
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 5: and confuse me and gaslight me. But there's a whole

864
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 5: host of other things besides oh, so he was jealous.

865
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: And it's so subtle. It's so subtle.

866
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 5: I just feel like there's not enough general awareness about

867
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 5: what emotional abuse actually is when there is no hitting involved.

868
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 2: Now, I don't know, are you familiar with the work

869
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 2: of Jess Hill. No, No, she discovered me or I

870
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: discovered her. I'm not sure. On Twitter, which I've suddenly

871
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: gotten on Twitter and the whole other world, I'm still

872
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 2: trying to figure out Instagram. But anyway, she's Australian and

873
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: she's a journalist and she's a specialist in coercive relationships.

874
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,439
Speaker 2: And I just got her book. It's this huge book

875
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: and it's called See What You Made Me Do. It

876
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: was first published in Australian and then she did a

877
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: more of an English language version to be published here,

878
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: so it's available on Amazon. But you know, I think

879
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 2: you're so right about that. People think, well, if there's

880
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: not physical abuse, there's not really abuse, right, And you know,

881
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: why can't you just yell back or you know.

882
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 5: Right, what measures can people take to protect themselves from

883
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 5: a harmful group or a harmful leader or abusive relationship.

884
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: I think probably first of all, to just slow down,

885
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: like don't jump into things right away. You know, if

886
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: people say to you, oh, come to this seminar because

887
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: this guru is only going to be in town next week. No,

888
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: the guru will be back, don't worry about it. So

889
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: I think slow down. I think, really check things out,

890
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 2: even if it's your best friend telling you to do something,

891
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: join something, Really do your own research. And there's so

892
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: much on the internet today about different groups of from

893
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: people who've left groups or lawsuits or whatever. And I

894
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 2: think it's important to do that research. I think it's

895
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 2: important if you can, to try to talk to people

896
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: who are in the group and left. I think the

897
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 2: biggest thing is that people jump into these things too fast.

898
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: And I understand that recruiters are very good at what

899
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: they do, and they're very good at getting you to

900
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: sign on. And I think if people were more cautious

901
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: and sort of looked at joining something as the same

902
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: way as they would buying a car, right, You don't

903
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: buy the first car you look at right, right, And

904
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: so you know, to be better consumers for their spiritual

905
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: life or their self improvement life, or their political life

906
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 2: or whatever it's going to be, is to really slow

907
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: down and check things out right. You know, in the

908
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 2: minute you find your questions aren't answered, or you know,

909
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: the minute you ask about money and they tell you to, oh,

910
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: don't ask that right now, or you know, anything like that,

911
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: there's a lack of transparency. There's a lot of other

912
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: groups out there that someone can join that are.

913
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 4: Healthy, right.

914
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 5: I think so often because people have a really you know,

915
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 5: sort of an intense emotional experience. For a lot of

916
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 5: these groups, they trust that emotional experience, and they think

917
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 5: that those feelings must mean that there's something real.

918
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:51,919
Speaker 4: There, right.

919
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: Yeah.

920
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: I was once talking to somebody and they're like, how

921
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 3: could it be fake if I like get these goosebumps

922
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 3: when we sing hymns like have you ever been to

923
00:47:58,640 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 3: a concert?

924
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: You singing it?

925
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: Right? Like? Very beautiful? Exactly. It's what we call those

926
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: high arousal techniques, and they can happen in any context

927
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 2: like you just mentioned, like at a concert. But again,

928
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: when you're primed to have this kind of experience and

929
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,720
Speaker 2: then you have it, and then you think, oh, that's real,

930
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: but it's not real. It's a manufactured experience to get

931
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: you to not consider your critical thinking part of your brain,

932
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 2: but to consider the sort of pleasure emotional part of

933
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: your brain. You know, That's why I think, you know,

934
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 2: slowing down is really important and doing research, and you know,

935
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 2: unfortunately we live in a very quick fixed society, which

936
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: I think has been true since about the sixties and

937
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: the beginning of the New Age movement and well not

938
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: the beginning, but the continuation of the New Age movement

939
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: that people want a solution right away. That's really been

940
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: the tendency I think of a lot of people in

941
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: this country that they can easily find a way to

942
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: solve whatever it is, and so there's a tendency to

943
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: you know, listen to these people who say they have

944
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: the grand solution.

945
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 5: For you, right, rather than going to therapy which could

946
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 5: take a long time.

947
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, or you know, trying to just lose weight on

948
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: your own by running up and down the street, or

949
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: you know whatever it might be. Right.

950
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 1: Wow, Well, this has been great.

951
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 5: Is there anything that you want people to know or

952
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 5: any final words or messages for the people.

953
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 2: People should know about my website which is cultresearch dot

954
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 2: org and there's a lot of information there on different

955
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: things that we've talked about today, as well as my books,

956
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: links to Amazon I guess or wherever for my books.

957
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 2: And also if they want to email me, there's a

958
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 2: way to email me through the website and that'll come

959
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: to me.

960
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: So great.

961
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 5: Well, thank you so much. This has been a really

962
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 5: great interview. I feel like I learned so much.

963
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, very enlightening.

964
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: Thank you.

965
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well, thanks so much. I really enjoyed it.

966
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 5: Wow, I loved that interview. Very cool lady, such great

967
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 5: work she's done. So Megan m M, do you think

968
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 5: that you would join the Democratic Workers Party or let's say,

969
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 5: any sort of Marxist political group.

970
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 3: Mmm, I don't know. Uh, the way she told it,

971
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 3: the time and place, I can see myself maybe getting

972
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: involved in something like that, sure, and then really believing

973
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 3: this woman that's telling me I'm not doing enough, because

974
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 3: once you start getting involved with things that really matter,

975
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 3: you're never doing enough, you know.

976
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 5: Mmm, Oh, that's that's so true. Actually, I've been reading

977
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 5: this book on morality. I'm taking forever to read it

978
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 5: because it's not actually that good, but.

979
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 1: Because I'm not actually that moral. Well that too.

980
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 5: But one of the dilemmas that they talk about is like,

981
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 5: if you believe that you should be spending your time

982
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 5: helping as many people as you can, and you as

983
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 5: many of your resources as possible to help other people,

984
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 5: then where is the line?

985
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 4: Wait?

986
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 5: Like should you why do anything for yourself then? Because

987
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 5: other people are suffering? And my actual belief is that

988
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 5: you have to take care of yourself. And if it's

989
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 5: if something is starting to impact your own quality of life,

990
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 5: well you're a person that matters too. Therefore you know

991
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 5: it is moral to take care of yourself. But I

992
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 5: could see so easily getting caught up in that idea

993
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 5: that like, well, I need to be helping people, so

994
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 5: I have to be doing more.

995
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: I can't.

996
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 5: I can't take time for myself. I can't have my

997
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 5: own identity. I need to keep going. You know, Yeah,

998
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 5: I totally see that. I think I absolutely would be

999
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 5: susceptible to a group like this, no fucking question.

1000
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure, it's kind of right up your alley.

1001
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've already been like social justice or activist groups

1002
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 5: like politics are very important to me.

1003
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: I could totally see that happening, and that's why I

1004
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: asked that question.

1005
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 5: I was like, how do you tell the difference between

1006
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 5: like a legitimate political group with reasonable goals versus a

1007
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 5: group where it's like you're just everyone has decided that

1008
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 5: this one person knows more about communism or knows more

1009
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 5: about fighting patriarchy or whatever the fuck it is, right,

1010
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 5: and therefore you have to listen to every single thing

1011
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 5: that they say and never question, because that's that's a

1012
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 5: problem too.

1013
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: Anyway.

1014
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, totally totally susceptible to this kind of thing, but

1015
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 5: not in one.

1016
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's good. Not in one yet, TVD. We'll

1017
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: keep you posted.

1018
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 3: Thank you all for listening. Have a wonderful week, and

1019
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 3: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

1020
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:45,240
Speaker 1: And never ever trust me. Bye by.

1021
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 6: Huddle up. It's me Angeuries. You can't beat the postgame

1022
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 6: burger fries, right, nobod else you can't be the angelry

1023
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 6: specially Let's break it down my favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese,

1024
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 6: Krissy bacon, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun of course,

1025
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 6: and don't forget the fries in a drink. It's gonna

1026
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 6: be a high seed for me.

1027
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 4: Soundher.

1028
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 6: All you have to do together is beat me in

1029
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 6: a one on one. I'm just playing get the Agent

1030
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 6: respectual on McDonald's now, bah bah bah bah.

1031
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: I'm participating in restaurants for a limited time.