Speaker 1: I think delusion is maybe ignoring red flags like no, no,
Speaker 1: it's going to be fine. What are you doing while
Speaker 1: you're not listening? Those mistakes and those red flags actually
Speaker 1: are really great gifts. Afterwards you're like, oh, I needed.
Speaker 2: To learn this.
Speaker 1: Entrepreneur Ali Webb, the co founder of driver Bar one
Speaker 1: hundred million dollar empire. I've had this shame and didn't
Speaker 1: want to be divorced once and now I'm heading into
Speaker 1: divorced twice. Can I be in love with a person
Speaker 1: and myself and what I'm doing? I haven't been able
Speaker 1: to figure that out yet.
Speaker 3: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
Speaker 3: you to join this community to hear more interviews that
Speaker 3: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All
Speaker 3: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
Speaker 3: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your
Speaker 3: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to
Speaker 3: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much
Speaker 3: for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best
Speaker 3: selling author and host the number one healthy well inness
Speaker 3: podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone, welcome back
Speaker 3: to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
Speaker 3: Thanks to each and every one of you that come
Speaker 3: back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now you
Speaker 3: know that our community is all about becoming happier, healthier,
Speaker 3: and more healed. And whether it's your career, whether it's
Speaker 3: your relationships, whether it's your personal life, we try and
Speaker 3: focus on all aspects on on purpose. Today's guest is
Speaker 3: someone who's excited to share with us what I believe
Speaker 3: is the truth, and it's called The Messy Truth. Ali Webb,
Speaker 3: who I'm going to tell you about in a second.
Speaker 3: This book is all about how she sold her business
Speaker 3: for millions but almost lost herself. The Messy Truth is
Speaker 3: available right now. We're going to put the link in
Speaker 3: the caption so you can order it while you're listening
Speaker 3: to this conversation. And for those of you that don't know,
Speaker 3: Ali Webb is the founder of dry Bar, New York
Speaker 3: Times best selling author Can It Be, President, co founder
Speaker 3: of Squeeze, bright Side, and Beckett and Quill. In twenty ten,
Speaker 3: dry Bar exploded into an nationally recognized and highly sought
Speaker 3: after brand, growing to over one hundred and fifty locations
Speaker 3: and highly successful product line which sold for two hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty five million dollars in twenty twenty. Staying true
Speaker 3: to Ali's signature approach to beauty and self care, Squeeze
Speaker 3: follows suit as an innovative massage concept. Ali joined forces
Speaker 3: with La based jewelry designer Meredith Quill to build yet
Speaker 3: another new company, now known as Beckett and Quill. Most recently,
Speaker 3: Ali joined the Canopy team as president. And I'm excited
Speaker 3: to talk to Ali because we bumped into each other
Speaker 3: recently at a soccer game football game for Angel CITYFC.
Speaker 3: Please welcome to the show, Ali Webb. Ali, thank you
Speaker 3: for being here.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for that introduction.
Speaker 3: Of course you had deliver it all as I always
Speaker 3: tell my guests, and I love this. You know. The
Speaker 3: title of your book just immediately captured my attention because
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more that every success story is underpinned
Speaker 3: by the messy truth, and we often don't hear about
Speaker 3: the messy truth. We often don't see the messy truth.
Speaker 3: Sometimes we don't even want to know about the messy truth.
Speaker 3: We'd rather believe in the facade or the beauty, or
Speaker 3: the perfection or the perfect image that we see. And
Speaker 3: I'm really glad that you're sharing this. So I have
Speaker 3: lots of things I want to ask you from the
Speaker 3: book today. I highly recommend everyone goes and buys the book,
Speaker 3: especially if you're on your entrepreneurial journey. Maybe you want
Speaker 3: to be an entrepreneur, you're thinking about it, and you
Speaker 3: think about how do I figure out all of this stuff?
Speaker 3: So let's start with this idea, ALI that a lot
Speaker 3: of our audience, a lot of our community, wants to
Speaker 3: be entrepreneurs. Yeah, they may already be entrepreneurs. Some of
Speaker 3: them are struggling, some of them are winning, some of
Speaker 3: them are still figuring out what they're even going to do.
Speaker 3: What is the messy truth about starting that no one
Speaker 3: tells you about starting specifically?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think that we live in a
Speaker 1: generation now where we're finally at the point which wasn't
Speaker 1: the case when I was starting out, where it is
Speaker 1: accessible to get to hear what's really going on. There's
Speaker 1: so many panels and so many conferences where you know,
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs are talking about more of the realist stuff, which
Speaker 1: I'm super grateful for. Like I said, thirteen years ago,
Speaker 1: when we started Drybar, that didn't exist, Like nobody was
Speaker 1: talking about anything, you know, you didn't have access to
Speaker 1: founders or CEOs the way you do now.
Speaker 2: And it's such a beautiful thing that.
Speaker 1: There's podcasts like this and there's places where people who
Speaker 1: were thinking about that starting a business can go like
Speaker 1: I have a mastermind that's launching next week. Where it's
Speaker 1: like for entrepreneurs, like there's so much access out there now,
Speaker 1: but you know, I think there is still understandably. So
Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, everybody wants to look good and
Speaker 1: everybody wants to like show their best side. And for me,
Speaker 1: it's like I I've always just been drawn to the like,
Speaker 1: you know, the realness, and maybe it's because I've always
Speaker 1: been a bit of an underdog, you know. I mean
Speaker 1: starting from the time I was like a kid. My
Speaker 1: older brother Michael, who's my business partner in Drybar, you know,
Speaker 1: he was like the overachiever in our family, like very
Speaker 1: you know, kind of more BookSmart and just you know,
Speaker 1: it was kind of either always in trouble or always
Speaker 1: doing something really amazing. There wasn't really a lot of
Speaker 1: in between, and I was kind of a bit of
Speaker 1: a wallflower, which if you know me now, that is
Speaker 1: not my personality at all, But back then I was
Speaker 1: just kind of observing my brother in trouble or doing
Speaker 1: something great. I grew up in this with this like
Speaker 1: I was just in the background, and I think that
Speaker 1: as as I've gotten older, I have felt like more
Speaker 1: wanting to you know, talk about, you know, my story
Speaker 1: and like how I was like like a bit of
Speaker 1: an I think I have a chapter in the book
Speaker 1: called like the Unlikely Entrepreneur something like that. I should
Speaker 1: probably know all the chapters of my but but I've
Speaker 1: always considered myself like kind of this underdog and like
Speaker 1: not who you'd expect to succeed. And I think I've
Speaker 1: guessed I have felt called to shine light on that
Speaker 1: because there are a lot of us out there, you know,
Speaker 1: and I don't have a traditional path. And I think
Speaker 1: that at one point it was like there was the
Speaker 1: societal like you have to go to college, you have
Speaker 1: to have a business degree if you want to start
Speaker 1: a business. And now you know, there's so many I've
Speaker 1: spoken at so many colleges that have entrepreneurial programs, which
Speaker 1: I'm like, I always get a chuckle out of because
Speaker 1: I'm like, I didn't even go to college, Like do
Speaker 1: you want me to not mention that, you know, but
Speaker 1: I think it's just good to show that, like you
Speaker 1: can find success and have success no matter who you are,
Speaker 1: whether you went to college, didn't go to college, just
Speaker 1: like graduate high school, didn't graduate or whatever. You know.
Speaker 1: So I've I've just felt really drawn to that kind
Speaker 1: of like underdog, like the person that you just wouldn't expect,
Speaker 1: you know, to be successful. And so I try to,
Speaker 1: you know, highlight that. And there's good there too, and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that I am, you know,
Speaker 1: I am really good at, but showing like a peak
Speaker 1: behind the curtain to people that it's not I mean,
Speaker 1: I think any entrepreneur who's listening to this knows it's
Speaker 1: not easy. Of course, it's not easy. I feel like
Speaker 1: I just want to talk about and highlight more of
Speaker 1: the hard stuff than just the good stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: because it's it's completely.
Speaker 2: A mix bag.
Speaker 1: It's not one or the other. It's usually like one
Speaker 1: minute to one minute, like you're like, oh, this was amazing,
Speaker 1: and then you're like the whole thing's falling apart, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's literally like that crazy. So my mission
Speaker 1: with the book was like to highlight both, like it's
Speaker 1: really amazing and it's the greatest journey and it's also
Speaker 1: incredibly hard and taxing, and like, you don't realize how
Speaker 1: much it's going to change your life, and I don't.
Speaker 1: I think that's good that you don't know that, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit of like the ignorance is bliss
Speaker 1: mentality because I feel like the less you know about
Speaker 1: what you're getting yourself into. And I think just that
Speaker 1: whole mindset of like, if you can accept you don't
Speaker 1: know what you don't know, you go into things a
Speaker 1: little like not as freaked down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, well in the book, you go into
Speaker 3: in detail. Give us a snapshot for everyone who's listening
Speaker 3: of what your life looked like when you even thought
Speaker 3: about starting this, because that will give us a picture
Speaker 3: of this yeah, underdog unlikely entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, I got married to my
Speaker 1: first husband when I was twenty six. I moved to
Speaker 1: New York City when I was eighteen because I didn't
Speaker 1: want to go to college and I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: going to move to New York City.
Speaker 2: I feel like that will be good college.
Speaker 1: And that's what I did, and I you know, I
Speaker 1: jumped around from job to job, and I would eventually
Speaker 1: go to beauty school in South Florida, and then I
Speaker 1: moved back to New York and then I got married
Speaker 1: and moved to LA and had two babies, and was
Speaker 1: like I thought, I'd like hit the jackpot. Like I
Speaker 1: loved being able to be a stay at home mom.
Speaker 1: I really felt so blessed and lucky that I got
Speaker 1: to be home with my boys.
Speaker 2: And I was home for like, you know.
Speaker 1: About five years before I started drybar, and that was
Speaker 1: such an amazing time. But I did get that itch
Speaker 1: to get back out there and start doing something for myself,
Speaker 1: which was really just like a feeling that I had.
Speaker 1: I mean, I really wanted to have kids, and I
Speaker 1: really wanted to be a stay at home mom, and
Speaker 1: part of me thought i'd get really involved in the
Speaker 1: school and stuff like that. And as I kind of
Speaker 1: approached that, I was like, no, I don't think I
Speaker 1: want to do that. And not there was no right
Speaker 1: or wrong right, it just wasn't for me. And I've
Speaker 1: always really trusted my gut and my feeling, and I
Speaker 1: stay very close into what feels right and I and
Speaker 1: after staying home with my kids, it was about they
Speaker 1: were about two and four when I started Drybar. And
Speaker 1: about a year before we started Drybar, I got that
Speaker 1: kind of itch to do something, and I started a
Speaker 1: mobile blowout business, which was again just like a way
Speaker 1: to get out of the house for a few hours,
Speaker 1: get away from my kids, who I loved, love, loved
Speaker 1: the whole thing, but just wanted to do something for myself.
Speaker 1: And I knew, having done hair for so many years,
Speaker 1: that I could do that pretty easily. I also, you know,
Speaker 1: had this like intuition on that that if I were
Speaker 1: to only charge forty dollars, which was like, oh, two twenties,
Speaker 1: super easy, I'll come over while you're baby sleeping.
Speaker 2: That was it.
Speaker 1: You know, that maybe that would be fulfilling for me
Speaker 1: to get out of the house talk to adults. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the other thing, is like when you have two
Speaker 1: little kids and you go to the park all day
Speaker 1: and you're you're in like kidville all day. I just
Speaker 1: I wanted a little bit of a break from that,
Speaker 1: and not just from my husband. So I started this
Speaker 1: and it was so perfect at the time, and I
Speaker 1: remember telling people that, like I remember it was, I
Speaker 1: mean it was fifteen years ago, but it feels like
Speaker 1: yesterday because I was like, oh, it's great. I love this,
Speaker 1: Like I'm getting out into the world. It was a
Speaker 1: great way for me to meet other women, and I
Speaker 1: would It also informed a lot of the things that
Speaker 1: we would eventually instill in Drybar, like not doing someone's
Speaker 1: hair in front of a mirror, because I was doing
Speaker 1: their hair in their living room and so it was
Speaker 1: just perfect. At the time, I wasn't really making any money,
Speaker 1: but I didn't I've never been like driven by money,
Speaker 1: so I was like, I'm just happy to do this.
Speaker 1: I make a little extra cash, I go and do
Speaker 1: this thing that I really love doing. I get to
Speaker 1: talk to these amazing women and it was kind of
Speaker 1: like wildfire. I you know, women would tell their friends
Speaker 1: and then their friend group and so it would just
Speaker 1: grow and grow, which which is eventually why Drybar came
Speaker 1: to be. Because I was getting so busy operating this
Speaker 1: mobile business by myself that I was like, I think
Speaker 1: I need to start having them come to me instead
Speaker 1: of me come to them, And that's really how Drybar
Speaker 1: was born. But I was just this like one woman
Speaker 1: show driving my Knie Sonic Sierra around LA with like
Speaker 1: a duffel bag full of tools and hairspray, and you
Speaker 1: know it's funny because it's like I remember it so
Speaker 1: while like could have never guessed it would turn into
Speaker 1: the life that I have now. I mean, not in
Speaker 1: a million years. I was just happy to be out
Speaker 1: of the house for a couple hours.
Speaker 3: You know, thank you for sharing that. I know you've
Speaker 3: probably had to share that so many times. I wanted
Speaker 3: you to because I just I mean, to me, I'm
Speaker 3: hoping that so many people are listening and watching going
Speaker 3: that's me Ali, right, Like I'm someone who like I
Speaker 3: love my family, but I want to do something. I
Speaker 3: have this instinct that I have something inside of me.
Speaker 3: I don't know what it quite is yet or by
Speaker 3: the way, I'm doing something on the side and my
Speaker 3: friends all tell each other that I'm good at it,
Speaker 3: and yeah, I think I could build something, but I'm
Speaker 3: not sure. Like, what was it that made you feel
Speaker 3: this is real and it could be bigger versus actually
Speaker 3: this is great and it fulfills my needs of getting
Speaker 3: out the house and giving me a little bit of
Speaker 3: extra cash. Because you could argue that already felt like
Speaker 3: success totally and it can be successful a lot of people.
Speaker 3: What was it for you that said no, this should
Speaker 3: be bigger. I can be bigger, and I want it
Speaker 3: to be bigger. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well it's funny how and I'm sure you've experienced
Speaker 1: this too, when you're doing something and it feels really right,
Speaker 1: and then there's like these rumblings and this like inner
Speaker 1: knowing of your like, wait a second, I might be
Speaker 1: onto something here. And that's really how I started to
Speaker 1: feel because I realized I was saying no more than
Speaker 1: I was saying yes. And I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: scratching my head, going like I'm getting so many calls,
Speaker 1: and I was pretty good at what I was doing,
Speaker 1: and so I was like, there's got to be something
Speaker 1: else here. And at the time, my kids were really
Speaker 1: little and my mom, who passed away eight years ago now,
Speaker 1: but she was We used to move her everywhere. We moved,
Speaker 1: like in an apartment down the street, and she loved
Speaker 1: being near my kids, and so that was really helpful,
Speaker 1: and she was, you know, in our lives. And I
Speaker 1: remember being like, I wonder what would happen if we
Speaker 1: had a location one location, you know, I'm like, my
Speaker 1: mom could help. I could get my kids after you know, preschool,
Speaker 1: like around three or four, I think I could still
Speaker 1: make this work. And again still thinking pretty small, you
Speaker 1: know that, like let me just go from like the
Speaker 1: next step from going to people's home to like opening
Speaker 1: a store.
Speaker 2: And it was so exciting, you know.
Speaker 1: And it was just like I tell people this all
Speaker 1: the time that you know, if you're chasing the money,
Speaker 1: like I mean, maybe that works sometimes in my experience
Speaker 1: most businesses that I know of, like it's like you're
Speaker 1: chasing something that you love. And I never I never
Speaker 1: thought about selling the business. I never thought about making
Speaker 1: a ton of money. I was like, I never even
Speaker 1: thought about money. We didn't, I mean for years I
Speaker 1: didn't take much money as a salary from Drybar. I
Speaker 1: just loved it, you know. And and when you you
Speaker 1: know this, when you love your passion and like the
Speaker 1: thing that you it's and you get to do it
Speaker 1: every day, you know, it was like I just felt
Speaker 1: like this is the coolest thing ever. And I couldn't believe, like,
Speaker 1: you know, when we first opened Drybar and so many
Speaker 1: people were coming, and and you know, again it was
Speaker 1: like it just felt so meant to be because this
Speaker 1: mobile business that I had built and these women that
Speaker 1: I had come to know in La, and some of
Speaker 1: them were like, I mean it's La, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like producers and actors and celebrities, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: I was a little thrust into that world, and you know,
Speaker 1: beyond like the celebrity just you know, there was just
Speaker 1: so many women who were really connected. And when I
Speaker 1: started talking to my clients, which by the way, were
Speaker 1: the first people I talked to about Driver, I was like,
Speaker 1: what do you think of this idea? And they're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's the best idea ever. But how
Speaker 1: do you make it work? And there was like certainly naysayers,
Speaker 1: but it was such a cool, exciting opportunity and to
Speaker 1: have women like being like, you should totally do this.
Speaker 1: And then we opened that first store and it was
Speaker 1: so busy and crazy and I and I just I
Speaker 1: loved every second of it.
Speaker 2: You know, I couldn't get enough of it.
Speaker 3: That's such a I love that and I want to
Speaker 3: pull from it for our listeners. So something Ali said
Speaker 3: that stands out to me is this idea of she
Speaker 3: was taking baby steps. It was just about the next step.
Speaker 3: It wasn't like I've come across domination a million dollar idea,
Speaker 3: one hundred It wasn't like those crazy thought process It
Speaker 3: was like, I do something it makes me happy, clients
Speaker 3: are happy, let's get a store. And I think sometimes
Speaker 3: we kind of go from well, I have a really
Speaker 3: good idea, it should be a million dollar business, a
Speaker 3: billion dollar business, or whatever it may be, and we
Speaker 3: don't get that next step right. So that's one thing
Speaker 3: I want to share. The second thing that really stood
Speaker 3: out in what you said is you asked the people
Speaker 3: you were serving your clients for what they thought of
Speaker 3: the idea. A lot of us ask our friends, we
Speaker 3: ask our family, we ask people around us who don't
Speaker 3: actually know how skilled we are at this thing, and
Speaker 3: we're not asking the people who are actually going to
Speaker 3: be our potential clients. And so the fact that you
Speaker 3: were asking them and they were saying, oh, I'd turn
Speaker 3: up there, Oh I'd recommend all my friends we're in,
Speaker 3: that's a much better person to talk to when you're
Speaker 3: sharing a new idea. What's the difference, Sally, Because you've
Speaker 3: talked about now and in the book you talk about
Speaker 3: this idea that you've always been pretty decisive, but more
Speaker 3: deeply when you go into it, and I know you
Speaker 3: have a deeper side to you and when you're thinking
Speaker 3: about things like intention and intuition and instinct, and you
Speaker 3: said I always knew, like I was always listening for
Speaker 3: that inner voice. What is the difference between intuition and delusion?
Speaker 3: If you had to think about how you notice the difference,
Speaker 3: what would that be for you?
Speaker 1: I think intuition is like versus delusion because I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm well equaited with I mean that's good, yeah,
Speaker 1: because like delusion is like something to me, at least
Speaker 1: how it lands for me is like something that's like,
Speaker 1: you know, a delusional view back then of Drybar would
Speaker 1: have been like, we're going to grow this thing to
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty locations and we're going to sell
Speaker 1: it for two hundred and fifty five million dollars, although
Speaker 1: I did say early on that I thought we would have,
Speaker 1: but not early like in a year in, I was like,
Speaker 1: I think we're going to sell the business for two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million, and that crazy. I mean, I
Speaker 1: feel like I manifested that. I think it kind of
Speaker 1: goes back to what you're saying about baby steps. It's
Speaker 1: like we're doing ourselves a disservice of you know, moving
Speaker 1: in this like, you know, in a delusional path, I
Speaker 1: think I would say you know, versus like saying close
Speaker 1: in and you know. And I have gotten very into
Speaker 1: spirituality in the last few years. And one of my
Speaker 1: very best friends and I talk about her in the book.
Speaker 1: Her name is pat Paige, and I always say I'm
Speaker 1: writing her spiritual cot Tails because she's always in Tellis
Speaker 1: and some retreat and you know, I'm just kind of
Speaker 1: like trying.
Speaker 2: To pick it up of what she's doing.
Speaker 1: And she always says to me, stay close and you know,
Speaker 1: and you have to really think about that and like
Speaker 1: what that means. And it's like, oh, for me anyways,
Speaker 1: it means like pay really close attention. And I've really
Speaker 1: started to think about that more and more, especially having
Speaker 1: had a you know, a rough couple months recently. It's like,
Speaker 1: how does this make me feel in the moment? And
Speaker 1: I don't think I ever could have articulated that the
Speaker 1: way I can now. And I think we get older,
Speaker 1: we're wiser, we go through more things, we read more books,
Speaker 1: we do all the things. I meditate a lot more now.
Speaker 1: I do all that stuff now, and I pay really
Speaker 1: close attention. I don't think I did the way I
Speaker 1: do now back then, but I think I had it
Speaker 1: instinctually in me. I just didn't know how to pick
Speaker 1: up on it, you know. Where it's like now I can.
Speaker 1: I can almost like I can read something or have
Speaker 1: a thought and like immediately get a ping in my
Speaker 1: body of like no, this doesn't not feel good, or
Speaker 1: get a like oh yeah, this feels really good and
Speaker 1: it's fascinating. And the thing is, and I'm sure you have,
Speaker 1: being who you are, would agree with this. It's like
Speaker 1: if you get really quiet and you pay attention to
Speaker 1: that stuff, it's pretty clear.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I have definitely been known to purposely ignore red flags
Speaker 1: and situations which have gotten me into some bad situations.
Speaker 1: And it's it's really funny the awareness that we get
Speaker 1: as we get older and wiser, and we make some
Speaker 1: mistakes and we learn from them, and so I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, delusion is like I think delusion is maybe
Speaker 1: ignoring red flags. You know, it's like, no, no, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be fine, besides the fact that like you know
Speaker 1: it's not, but you're gonna It's like what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Why are you're not listening? I heard something Renee Brown said,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she's been on the show. Oh you have
Speaker 1: to have her on. She's amazing and she was really
Speaker 1: there for me in my first divorce, which is crazy,
Speaker 1: but she I just saw something recently where she was like,
Speaker 1: every once in a while, the universe taps you or
Speaker 1: not everyone's while when you get to mid age, the
Speaker 1: universe like taps you on the shoulder and it's like
Speaker 1: you can't run anymore. And I was like, is she
Speaker 1: talking to me? You know? But it's a fascinating thing
Speaker 1: because I think at some point in our lives and
Speaker 1: it seems to me like it's more midlife, you get
Speaker 1: that tap and you're like, yeah, I gotta be really
Speaker 1: like I got to pay attention to what's happening, Like
Speaker 1: you can't get away with it anymore, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think as we're when we're younger, we can. I
Speaker 1: don't know why that is, and I think maybe we're
Speaker 1: just ignoring the red flags and thinking it can just
Speaker 1: all work out. And I'm such a like it all
Speaker 1: works out kind of galt anyways, which I think is true.
Speaker 1: And now I've come to realize that those mistakes and
Speaker 1: those red flags and the things that we don't pay
Speaker 1: attention to when we should actually are really great gifts,
Speaker 1: not in the moment. In the moment you're like, why
Speaker 1: is this happening to me? But then afterwards you're like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I needed to learn this.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Again, my friend Paige always says, it's the medicine, you know.
Speaker 1: She's like, this is the medicine that you need. I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's always about the medicine, you know, But it's really true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, thank you for thank you for doing that
Speaker 3: thought experiment with me into your say I really love
Speaker 3: you tak it. Yeah, I love your taking it. I
Speaker 3: want to pick out some moments from your book because
Speaker 3: I love some of the quotes in your book and
Speaker 3: things that stuck with me. And so I'm going to
Speaker 3: start with this because it really, you know, enhances the
Speaker 3: conversation we're having right now about your work. And he says,
Speaker 3: this is page eight. The entrepreneurs today's face different challenges,
Speaker 3: more noise, more competition, et cetera. It still always starts
Speaker 3: with you, your idea, your skill set, your purpose, and
Speaker 3: your gut instinct. And you say, what is the thing
Speaker 3: that you just can't stop thinking about? Which which I
Speaker 3: love that. I love that language to it but you
Speaker 3: talk a lot about this finding your skill set as
Speaker 3: an entrepreneur, and I think there could be nothing more
Speaker 3: true about than that, Like, I'm so aligned with you,
Speaker 3: and I think often we're doing things we're passionate about
Speaker 3: that we're not skilled at, or if we are passionate,
Speaker 3: we haven't thought that we need to be skilled at it.
Speaker 3: And obviously you could be doing the opposite, where you
Speaker 3: do something that you're not passionate about. Sure, and that's
Speaker 3: what a job is pretty much. Yeah, but how do
Speaker 3: people discover what they're skilled out? Because what I've found
Speaker 3: is that most of us, when we're skilled at something,
Speaker 3: we devalue it as a skill because it's so easy
Speaker 3: to us. And we see someone else with another skill.
Speaker 3: And you talk about this a lot in the book
Speaker 3: about don't become someone else's story, don't chase another entrepreneur,
Speaker 3: don't try and imitate. But we look at someone So
Speaker 3: for example, people will look at me and be like, oh, Jay,
Speaker 3: like you're really good at X, y Z. But then
Speaker 3: if I'm not aware of that skill set, I'll be
Speaker 3: like no, no, no, but you're really good at ABC.
Speaker 3: And then we play this kind of tag of like no,
Speaker 3: I don't have your skills, but we rarely sit and go, no,
Speaker 3: I'm actually really good at that because we devalue what
Speaker 3: we find easy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true, right.
Speaker 1: I think it was really highlighted in my business with
Speaker 1: my brother and my first husband, Cam who Cam was
Speaker 1: the creative genius behind dry bar and my brother was
Speaker 1: like or the behind the scene business side of it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know, the hairstylist and like
Speaker 1: the experience. And everybody always asks us like, is it
Speaker 1: really hard to work with your brother and now ex
Speaker 1: husband and that's not why we got divorced and whatever,
Speaker 1: But I was like, no, it was great because we
Speaker 1: were all very clear on what we did and what
Speaker 1: we did well and what our highest and best use was.
Speaker 1: I had that conversation so many times. I still go
Speaker 1: back to that what's my highest and best use always
Speaker 1: in life because I think it's like really like think
Speaker 1: about it, you know.
Speaker 2: And we had really almost no conflict.
Speaker 1: And if we ever I mean we all talked about
Speaker 1: all things together, but if there was ever like a
Speaker 1: questionable thing, whoever would decide was like who's laying that was?
Speaker 1: You know, and that was we were all very okay
Speaker 1: with that, and I think when you do run into
Speaker 1: problems with business partners, it's often because you guys think
Speaker 1: you have the same skill set and then that's such
Speaker 1: it's like five year olds playing soccer.
Speaker 2: Everybody's kicking the ball. It doesn't work, you know.
Speaker 1: So I feel like it is it's like the old
Speaker 1: cliche like it doesn't feel like work if you're doing
Speaker 1: something you love, which I know has been said eight
Speaker 1: million time, but like it is so true and and
Speaker 1: I think it's like almost feels too easy to your point.
Speaker 1: So people are like, well, I've got to challenge myself.
Speaker 1: And of course, like you do, and you want to
Speaker 1: keep challenging yourself. But like what a gift in life
Speaker 1: to like be able.
Speaker 2: To do what you love to do.
Speaker 1: And I think I think there's this misconception that like
Speaker 1: you shouldn't do that, you know. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: for me, like when I told my parents I wanted
Speaker 1: to go to beauty school, they were like really sure,
Speaker 1: you know, and like very like look their nose down
Speaker 1: on it, like you want to be a hairstylist. And
Speaker 1: they also had I grew up in South Lorda, and
Speaker 1: my parents said, we're entrepreneurs, which definitely informed a lot
Speaker 1: of my or who I became. But they had this
Speaker 1: like old Lady clothing store and it was right next
Speaker 1: to this like old Lady hair salon, and they and
Speaker 1: they think in their mind, they were like, you want
Speaker 1: to work there? And I was like, no, I'm going
Speaker 1: to move to New York City. I'm gonna do editorial
Speaker 1: and like fashion shows. And I had these like grand ideas.
Speaker 1: I didn't have dry bar at the time, you know,
Speaker 1: but it was like that's what I'd loved. Like I
Speaker 1: grew up in South Florida, I have naturally curly hair,
Speaker 1: and my hair was just massive and frizzy all the time.
Speaker 1: And I was just fast by hair. I loved hair.
Speaker 1: It's just what I loved, you know. And so it
Speaker 1: took me a lot. It would take me many years
Speaker 1: to finally like get the courage to say, Like when
Speaker 1: my friends were going to college and they were studying whatever,
Speaker 1: and I was always like, how do you guys know
Speaker 1: what you want to do? Very confused by that whole
Speaker 1: notion of college and majors and all that. And I
Speaker 1: just loved hair and that was the thing that I
Speaker 1: really loved. And it would, you know, and I talked
Speaker 1: about it in the book that it took me a
Speaker 1: while to figure out again. It comes back to like
Speaker 1: being close in like I always loved hair. I would
Speaker 1: spend hours in the bathroom in high school and I
Speaker 1: was just so. I worked at a hair salon as
Speaker 1: a receptionist when I was in high school because I
Speaker 1: wanted to get free blowouts and because I loved being
Speaker 1: around hairstylists.
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is the thing that I love,
Speaker 2: and I.
Speaker 1: Ignored it for so many years, you know, And it's
Speaker 1: like to be able to tap into that thing.
Speaker 2: And and you can't find a person. There's nobody you can.
Speaker 1: Meet and say, what do you really love to do?
Speaker 1: And they may not tell you because they're embarrassed, or
Speaker 1: they don't do it as a job because they like
Speaker 1: my parents want to prove, my husband want to prove
Speaker 1: whoever won't think it's a good idea. My parents did
Speaker 1: not think it was a good idea to go to
Speaker 1: beauty school. But I had enough, like hootsbu to be like,
Speaker 1: I hear you, but it's what I want to do,
Speaker 1: you know. And I had no idea I was going
Speaker 1: to turn into like this beautiful life that it did
Speaker 1: for me. But I was just like, stay really focused.
Speaker 1: And I talk about that a lot to entrepreneurs that
Speaker 1: I'm mentoring. It's like, don't you know, shut all that out,
Speaker 1: you know, listen to what really feels like is good
Speaker 1: for you, not what everybody else around you wants.
Speaker 3: You know. It's almost like that question that's come from
Speaker 3: what you're saying, is what's that voice you're ignoring on
Speaker 3: the inside or what's that idea that you keep kind
Speaker 3: of putting away because you're like, that's ridiculous, Oh that's stupid. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and you've heard that voice before where someone looked at
Speaker 3: you weird because you actually shared your intention, yeah, your
Speaker 3: excitement and ever I looked at you like, that's not
Speaker 3: real over it.
Speaker 1: And by the way, people do that at Drybar, because
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, it was it was in
Speaker 1: the middle of a recession and people were like, how
Speaker 1: do you make this concept work? It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: we were starting at thirty five dollars a blowout and it
Speaker 1: was like you have to do a lot of blowouts
Speaker 1: to make that business work. And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, but I think we can do it. And like,
Speaker 1: I literally not not great at math, but I was like,
Speaker 1: I think if we can do like, you know, ten
Speaker 1: blowouts an hour and we're open, you know, ten hours
Speaker 1: to day, like I think it'll work, you know. And
Speaker 1: I remember my brother started like putting an actual spreadsheet
Speaker 1: together and running the numbers. It was like, yeah, if
Speaker 1: we do thirty or forty blowouts today, we'll have a
Speaker 1: nice business, you know. And of course we never did
Speaker 1: that little We always did like seventy eighty one hundred
Speaker 1: blow out, say, which was just bananas. But it was
Speaker 1: like people were the ones who put it in my
Speaker 1: head that like, maybe maybe this idea doesn't work. I mean,
Speaker 1: so many people and then we started raising money, and
Speaker 1: you know, that's a whole other conversation of like raising
Speaker 1: money with like walking into these rooms with men in
Speaker 1: suits who like did not understand the concept of drybar,
Speaker 1: and we're like what, you know, like how does this work?
Speaker 1: And just didn't believe in it. So many people didn't
Speaker 1: believe in it, and it did seem like a tough
Speaker 1: you know, how do you make this work? Like on
Speaker 1: a large scale, is there enough women who want to
Speaker 1: do this? Is the price the price points really low?
Speaker 1: Like margins are really thin? How does it work, and
Speaker 1: you know, and I just I'm like, I'm just telling you.
Speaker 1: I really, you know, from a gut level, know that
Speaker 1: this is going to work. And then you're like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: this better work, you know. But it did. And I
Speaker 1: always felt like there was money on the line for sure,
Speaker 1: and that's not a small thing. But you know, I
Speaker 1: remember when I started cutting hair, and I mean when
Speaker 1: you're starting to cut hair and you have really sharp
Speaker 1: scissors in your hand, it is very scary and like
Speaker 1: and you know, it's so funny. It's like the very
Speaker 1: first hair.
Speaker 3: I never trust myself, Oh my god, or anyone else.
Speaker 1: It's the worst and.
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, I'm not going anywhere.
Speaker 1: The first haircut I ever did in beauty school, I
Speaker 1: cut someone's ear and I felt like I was going
Speaker 1: to die. And the ears bleed so much. And I thought, when.
Speaker 3: You cut someone's ear, how much.
Speaker 1: Just like just a little nip on the I mean,
Speaker 1: it was it was I remember, it was so traumatized.
Speaker 1: I'm sure for them, but for me. And also in
Speaker 1: beauty school you're doing like two dollars haircuts and so
Speaker 1: you're learning. You know, I still have like nightmares about
Speaker 1: that because it was like the worst thing that can
Speaker 1: happen beside that weird story, which I don't think I've
Speaker 1: ever talked a very body about.
Speaker 2: It was very traumatizing for me, But.
Speaker 1: I always felt like at the end of the day
Speaker 1: when I was on the floor cutting and when I
Speaker 1: was doing all that, and you know, and then when
Speaker 1: we were starting drybar, I was like, no one's gonna
Speaker 1: die if this business doesn't work, like which is like
Speaker 1: the worst possible outcome.
Speaker 2: It's like we're not doing surgery.
Speaker 1: We're not we don't, you know. And and I and
Speaker 1: I always like found comfort in that because I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's always the chance that we're going to
Speaker 1: lose money. In my case, it was going to really
Speaker 1: be my brother's money and my you know, my my
Speaker 1: husband at the time, and I put in our life savings,
Speaker 1: which wasn't really that much but a lot to us
Speaker 1: at the time, and you know, I was like, it's
Speaker 1: gonna really suck and we're going to lose money, but
Speaker 1: we're like, we're really smart, capable people, and if this
Speaker 1: idea doesn't work, like we'll figure something else out. And
Speaker 1: I think that that mindset of like you got to
Speaker 1: just like put it on the line is like it
Speaker 1: is really why I think I've been successful. It's like
Speaker 1: not holding anything too tightly of like, yeah, I really
Speaker 1: hope this works, and I really think this is going
Speaker 1: to work. But if it doesn't, like we're all going
Speaker 1: to be okay, you know. And I think that's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot a lot of entrepreneurs
Speaker 1: I talk to are like, I have to have this
Speaker 1: much money, stave, and I have to do this, and
Speaker 1: I have to do this, and I have this. I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, prepare for sure, but like.
Speaker 2: At some point you're gonna have to just jump, you know,
Speaker 2: and hope.
Speaker 1: For the best.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is there is a moment for that lead.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I want to drive into a couple of things here
Speaker 3: that you've mentioned that I think really stood out. And
Speaker 3: you talk about this, and we would talking about this
Speaker 3: a bit offline. It was this idea of page thirteen,
Speaker 3: you say, if you feel like an impostor, embrace it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I feel like imposter syndrome has been something that
Speaker 3: a lot of people are talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think it's something that there are even more people
Speaker 3: that are feeling than are talking about it, and it
Speaker 3: seems to be a recurring feeling. Yeah, whenever you're in
Speaker 3: a new room or a new league or a new zone.
Speaker 3: When you say embrace it.
Speaker 1: Well, I think to your point of people talking about
Speaker 1: it a lot, they talk about it like it's a
Speaker 1: bad thing, and I think I think of it as
Speaker 1: a good thing. If you're embarking on a position in
Speaker 1: a new job, or you're starting a company or whatever
Speaker 1: you're doing that's new to you, like that's amazing, Like
Speaker 1: you're starting something new, You're you're taking that leap of faith.
Speaker 2: You're you know, putting yourself.
Speaker 1: In a situation that you've not been in, and that's
Speaker 1: really scary for sure, but it's also really exciting and exhilarating,
Speaker 1: and it means you're growing and you're in this next
Speaker 1: new phase in your life. And so this this negative
Speaker 1: association with imposter syndrome as if it's like a bad thing,
Speaker 1: it has definitely happened to me.
Speaker 2: I think maybe because I.
Speaker 1: Had never had any real formal training in anything other
Speaker 1: than hair where I would start a job and I
Speaker 1: was like, no, I'm underqualified for this job, but I'm
Speaker 1: going to like figure it out. And I and I
Speaker 1: would you know, and I guess that was part of it. Like, yes,
Speaker 1: I am an imposter technically, I don't know how to
Speaker 1: do this job, but you better believe I'm going to
Speaker 1: figure it out and do it well.
Speaker 2: And it's no dient with entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1: I mean when we started Drybar, I had never like
Speaker 1: been in charge of that many people. I'd never managed
Speaker 1: a salon like I'd never my parents didn't I watch them,
Speaker 1: and i worked for owners of hair salons, and.
Speaker 2: I've been a stylist for years.
Speaker 1: Like I had a lot of the things that I
Speaker 1: think I needed had but I had never actually done it,
Speaker 1: and so I was learning it as I went, which
Speaker 1: was scary but also amazing. And I also think when
Speaker 1: you come in again, nothing I could have articulated them.
Speaker 1: But a term I think we're hearing more and more
Speaker 1: now is this like beginner's mindset, you know. And I
Speaker 1: had that when I was when we were starting Drybar,
Speaker 1: because I was quite literally a beginner and running a
Speaker 1: business and I made a lot of mistakes and I
Speaker 1: had to figure out a lot of things. And that's
Speaker 1: that's also the beauty of this book is that I
Speaker 1: feel like I got an education in this. I got
Speaker 1: like a you know, a business degree while I was
Speaker 1: running a business, because I was having to figure all
Speaker 1: these things out, and I made tons of wrong.
Speaker 2: Decisions and bad choices.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I also think I felt not necessarily imposter syndrome, but
Speaker 1: I think I felt this like men's pressure because I
Speaker 1: was the boss, like I had to know all the
Speaker 1: answers and I had to Like if you came to
Speaker 1: me and asked me a question about the business, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, well, here's what I think, even though it
Speaker 1: wasn't always right. It was just like me havy. And
Speaker 1: I used to think that that was like, oh, you're
Speaker 1: just the boss, and you just you your book stops
Speaker 1: with you and you have to And now I feel
Speaker 1: like and how I approach that question now is like,
Speaker 1: well what do you think? Which is not something I
Speaker 1: would have said. And that's like I think that was
Speaker 1: all ego because I was like, oh, I feel this pressure,
Speaker 1: like I'm supposed to know the answer because I'm sitting
Speaker 1: where I'm sitting in this company, and now I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: what do you think about that? And then people are
Speaker 1: like what you know? And I'm like, well I don't.
Speaker 1: I actually don't know the answer, but I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear what you think. But I didn't have enough, like
Speaker 1: you know, I was too focused on like feeling like
Speaker 1: I had to be And maybe that does go back
Speaker 1: to imposter syndrome. I felt like I needed to know
Speaker 1: all the answers because I was the boss and this
Speaker 1: was my company and blah blah blah. Where now I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's so much freedom in saying I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: like let's.
Speaker 2: Talk about it.
Speaker 1: And then the culture that you create in a company
Speaker 1: when you're like the kind of boss that's like not
Speaker 1: to know at all and people aren't afraid to be like, hey, Jay,
Speaker 1: you know, I actually think that if we tried this,
Speaker 1: this and that, Like I'm sure people do that in
Speaker 1: your company. Like I'm when someone comes up to you
Speaker 1: and they're like, I actually think if we tried blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, and your response is like no, you know,
Speaker 1: they're never coming to you with something again.
Speaker 2: But if your response is like, oh, that's.
Speaker 1: Interesting, you know, and you may not always take it,
Speaker 1: but that beginners that feels to me like a beginner's
Speaker 1: mindset of like I'm open to other ways, and I
Speaker 1: think that there's a part of I know there's a
Speaker 1: part of me that gets a little like you know,
Speaker 1: and it's also like I feel like I know best,
Speaker 1: and we go into our ego of like, no, but
Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing. How But embracing what somebody
Speaker 1: else is bringing to you I think is really powerful.
Speaker 1: And that's something that took me a long time to
Speaker 1: get comfortable with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's something that you've reminded me on you talk
Speaker 3: about this on page fifty two. You're saying being open
Speaker 3: to feedback, personal or professional, is a practice, a learned
Speaker 3: intention to stop taking the information, maybe going a walk,
Speaker 3: take some deep breaths, and come back open to hearing
Speaker 3: what someone else is feeling. And I wanted to ask
Speaker 3: you what's been the best or most memorable piece of
Speaker 3: feedback that you gained on your professional journey that's kind
Speaker 3: of stuck with you where maybe even in the moment
Speaker 3: it was so painful to hear Yeah, but you now
Speaker 3: look back and go, I believe that. Well.
Speaker 1: I think thinking of feedback as a gift, which I
Speaker 1: learned pretty early on. And I remember, you know somebody
Speaker 1: in our company who said it. I heard her say
Speaker 1: at once, and I was like, wow, that's so profound
Speaker 1: because if you can be open to what someone is
Speaker 1: telling you, which is so hard and it is painful.
Speaker 1: And you know, I remember my brother saying to me
Speaker 1: once like people are scared of you. And I was like, what,
Speaker 1: you know, just no awareness on my part, Like I
Speaker 1: was like, what are you talking about? What are you
Speaker 1: talking about? What do you mean people are scared of me?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: And he was like, well, because you know, yeah this joke,
Speaker 1: Yeah I was, but in the moment, I really was
Speaker 1: taken aback by it. And I was like, I'm so nice,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? And he was like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: you walk in the stores and you lose your mind.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I do that because I'm so passionate,
Speaker 1: you know. And I was covering it up with like,
Speaker 1: I'm so passionate and I want things to be perfect,
Speaker 1: and I did. But I would learn over time that
Speaker 1: that walking in and like you know, I would, I would.
Speaker 1: You could see it all over my face because I
Speaker 1: was like, why are the floorboards dirty?
Speaker 2: Why is the music not up?
Speaker 1: Why did this person not get greeted that way? I mean,
Speaker 1: just for me, it was like, you know, it was
Speaker 1: like centory overload of everything that was wrong, which I
Speaker 1: think is a blessing and a curse because you're like, well,
Speaker 1: I am the person this is my baby, Like I
Speaker 1: am the person who has to be the one that's like,
Speaker 1: this is not working and we need to fix this.
Speaker 1: But I also would learn that people were excited when
Speaker 1: I would come in the store, and they wanted to
Speaker 1: tell me the good things. And I did start to
Speaker 1: perpetuate this reputation of like Alice's come and watch out,
Speaker 1: and you know, part of me was like, I think,
Speaker 1: maybe that's a good thing, but then I was like, no,
Speaker 1: it's not. And I would learn eventually to you know,
Speaker 1: like I would take notes and I would then like,
Speaker 1: you know, not like ruin everybody's day when I would
Speaker 1: come in the store, you know. And I had to
Speaker 1: learn that the hard way. But it really did take
Speaker 1: my brother probably one of the only few people in
Speaker 1: our company who felt comfortable enough to say to me
Speaker 1: because he wasn't scared of me.
Speaker 2: You know, he'd be like, people are.
Speaker 1: Scared of you, and I again, at first, I was
Speaker 1: very defensive and I told him he was wrong, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was also my big brother, but it
Speaker 1: really like sunk in and I was like, man, I
Speaker 1: don't want that. I don't want people to be scared
Speaker 1: of me. I want people to be able to talk
Speaker 1: to me. I don't want people to feel like they
Speaker 1: have to protect me either, which was also another thing
Speaker 1: that drove me crazy and still does to this day.
Speaker 1: Like I don't you know, I'm sure you agree with this.
Speaker 1: It's like you don't want to be surrounded by yes people,
Speaker 1: like please no, tell me, tell me the truth, tell
Speaker 1: me what people are saying. I want to know what
Speaker 1: people are thinking if I if I can't ascertain that
Speaker 1: on my own, you know, so if you have people
Speaker 1: around you who are willing to give you like the feedback,
Speaker 1: it's like you're only going to be better for it,
Speaker 1: you know it. It stings in the moment, and it
Speaker 1: still does. Like you know, sometimes someone will tell me
Speaker 1: something and I'll be like, oh gosh, like I can't
Speaker 1: believe that. And then if you're open to it, and
Speaker 1: then you you then now you have the awareness about it,
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you. I'm like, I don't think you
Speaker 1: have children, right, you know? For me, I have a
Speaker 1: sixteen and eighteen year old, two boys, and like talk
Speaker 1: about honesty. I mean, I'm really really close to my kids.
Speaker 1: But they will tell me things like that are very
Speaker 1: hard here, and it is a real practice, a mental
Speaker 1: exercise for me to not you know.
Speaker 2: And my kids used to say to me, like.
Speaker 1: Because I've because during the drybar era, when I was like,
Speaker 1: guess a little scary, you know, my kids would even
Speaker 1: say to me like, we don't know what version you're
Speaker 1: gonna of you we're going to get, which is like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah. And I was like, but I know that now,
Speaker 1: and now like the power is in my control, like
Speaker 1: I can be like okay, And it literally just happened.
Speaker 1: I was with my son is at Dennison and University
Speaker 1: in Ohio. He's playing football, and I went out to
Speaker 1: see him and this, you know, he like came off
Speaker 1: the field, you know, he was like didn't really want
Speaker 1: to talk about some of the stuff that we want
Speaker 1: to talk about. And my younger son said to me, like,
Speaker 1: just give him a minute, mom, And I was like
Speaker 1: what he's like, just give him a minute. And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh right. You know, because as a mom
Speaker 1: and anybody listening to this, who's a mom, You're like
Speaker 1: when your kid isn't like perfect and happy, You're like,
Speaker 1: what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong?
Speaker 2: How can I fix it?
Speaker 1: What can I do to? You know, we get and
Speaker 1: we go into that like mama bear protective mode. And
Speaker 1: my younger son looked at me and he's like, Mom,
Speaker 1: give him a minute. And I did get defensive with
Speaker 1: him for a second and I was like, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? You know, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: and I was like, you're right, you know, and I
Speaker 1: was like okay, and I thanked him, you know, and
Speaker 1: I backed up and I was like, when he's ready
Speaker 1: to talk to me about it, he'll talk to me
Speaker 1: about it, and sure enough, he did a couple hours
Speaker 1: later talk he opened up and it was like such
Speaker 1: a great lesson and reminder of like, so you know,
Speaker 1: you need to give people space and you can't just
Speaker 1: have what you want when you want it. And that's
Speaker 1: been a really hard lesson for me. And I think
Speaker 1: it's also like being at the helm of a company
Speaker 1: and having this like mentality of like I can do
Speaker 1: and say whatever I want because I'm the boss and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, you can just do whatever. That bleeds
Speaker 1: over into your real life, which you know, my kids
Speaker 1: are kind of a living example of that of like
Speaker 1: you know. And I used to say things to my
Speaker 1: kids like I've been around longer than you guys, and
Speaker 1: I just know. And they're like, you don't always know, mom,
Speaker 1: you know. And it's like, you know, so your kids
Speaker 1: are like talk about mirrors, you know, and they they've
Speaker 1: all of that awareness. I think has been such a
Speaker 1: gift to me, and that you can get that anywhere
Speaker 1: in your life, from your best friend, from your spouse,
Speaker 1: from someone who works for you or with you. It's like,
Speaker 1: if you ask genuinely, they're going to tell you. And like,
Speaker 1: what a gift to like get that awareness, and you know,
Speaker 1: and it does sting for a second, and then you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take that and be better. My best
Speaker 1: friend tells me stuff too, you know. It's like thank you,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it requires that beginner's mindset, that humility to
Speaker 3: accept it and receive it. And my wife does it
Speaker 3: with me all the time. And it's so much easier
Speaker 3: to defend yourself, to mask yourself, to shield yourself in
Speaker 3: a false sense. And what you don't realize is every
Speaker 3: time you pretend to shield yourself from good feedback, you're
Speaker 3: just setting yourself up for more downfall. It happens again
Speaker 3: and again, and the ego is so well equipped to
Speaker 3: keep drawing the sword and cutting down everything in its way,
Speaker 3: and it's perfect at it because that's its job. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but it's not protection. It's actually your resilience is getting
Speaker 3: thinner and thinner and thinner and getting weaker and weak
Speaker 3: and weaker. I wanted to ask you because you're shifting
Speaker 3: into that, you know that. I love how honest you
Speaker 3: were about the kind of feedback you get from kids.
Speaker 3: I think people often talk about, oh, you know, my
Speaker 3: kids said I'm not cool anymore, whatever, that kind of
Speaker 3: stuff that is insting. But hearing this kind of stuff,
Speaker 3: do you think it's because you definitely have a take
Speaker 3: on this in your book, Like do you think it's
Speaker 3: possible to be really materially successful and have a happy marriage.
Speaker 3: I got those two things possible.
Speaker 1: My first marriage, which was like sixteen years, didn't work,
Speaker 1: not because of the business, And I think that it's
Speaker 1: like I joke a lot that, like people were like,
Speaker 1: you know, it must have been hard to work with
Speaker 1: your husband. I was like, yeah, we got divorced, you know,
Speaker 1: but that's not really you know, it's a joke. Which
Speaker 1: of course is like a deflection, but more true was that,
Speaker 1: like we probably never should have gotten married in the
Speaker 1: first place. Like we met when we were twenty six,
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure I put this in the book,
Speaker 1: that he tried to call the wedding off a month
Speaker 1: before the wedding and I was like, oh no, we
Speaker 1: are not doing that, like and he had some real
Speaker 1: good reasons for that, Like, you know, the relationship was
Speaker 1: really hot and heavy in the beginning, it had faded
Speaker 1: quite a bit, like the intimacy wasn't really there, but
Speaker 1: we were best friends. And I would later learned that,
Speaker 1: like my parents had that marriage, which they ended up
Speaker 1: getting divorced too, And I think I definitely emulated my parents' marriage,
Speaker 1: which is just wild when you read all that about
Speaker 1: how we do that, because I didn't see it at all.
Speaker 1: But you know, we we had kids very quickly, which
Speaker 1: I really wanted. I was very like, I'm very driven,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I want children, and so we
Speaker 1: had kids a year after we got married. And then
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, we started the business drive
Speaker 1: Bar when my kids were three and five. So it
Speaker 1: was like boom boom boom, and Drive Bar felt like
Speaker 1: a third baby, and then you know, Cam was doing
Speaker 1: all the creative and I was doing all the other stuff,
Speaker 1: and so you know, we're on this path.
Speaker 2: And I knew all along.
Speaker 1: And so did he, even though we didn't want to
Speaker 1: admit it that like this wasn't like this can't be it,
Speaker 1: this can't be like what it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2: But you know, we didn't.
Speaker 1: Want to like disrupt our lives, and we you know,
Speaker 1: it's just like it's a lot to get divorced. And
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be a divorced person. And I
Speaker 1: liked the facade that I had at least two really
Speaker 1: cute boys with great hair and this amazing husband and
Speaker 1: he was like the you know, the brainchild of the
Speaker 1: creative driver, which is amazing. I was like, I loved
Speaker 1: the way the package looked, but I knew it wasn't right,
Speaker 1: you know, the material success. I didn't I didn't want
Speaker 1: to shatter the whole image, you know, and and obviously,
Speaker 1: like i've you know, come to realize that like you
Speaker 1: just you have to and that's the message, ruth of
Speaker 1: it all. And then it was then I made the
Speaker 1: really hard decision to end the marriage. And then my son,
Speaker 1: who's now eighteen and doing really well at Dennison. He
Speaker 1: went into rehab because he started doing drugs and there's
Speaker 1: a whole chapter about that, and just my life completely unraveled,
Speaker 1: you know. And and to your question, it was like,
Speaker 1: on this hand, I had all this success and I
Speaker 1: was like doing all this cool stuff, and like anybody
Speaker 1: who didn't know me, I was like I was a
Speaker 1: guest on Shark Tank, like the coolest thing ever.
Speaker 2: I was like on Ink magazine on the cover.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like all these really cool things
Speaker 1: were happening, and you look at my life, like, Wow,
Speaker 1: what a cool life she's got. And then all this
Speaker 1: success and I was being you know, praised, and it
Speaker 1: was great, but then my life was falling apart, you know.
Speaker 1: And so no, I didn't I wasn't able to hold both.
Speaker 1: And then I come out of Grant after about two years,
Speaker 1: like it really worked, all the treatment we put Grant through,
Speaker 1: and he really came out on top, and he really
Speaker 1: did the work, and he's such a I mean, he
Speaker 1: ended up in a couple of different programs. One of
Speaker 1: them was an outdoor wilderness program in Utah, which I
Speaker 1: actually think every human should probably have to go through.
Speaker 1: We went to visit him once and he was like
Speaker 1: making fire out of like, you know, two sticks, and
Speaker 1: he was like learned how to mean the thing. It
Speaker 1: was amazing and I was like, this is really profound,
Speaker 1: and he really came out such a better.
Speaker 2: Person on the other side. And it also brought me and.
Speaker 1: My ex together because we had to like do group
Speaker 1: family group therapy and family there and all the things.
Speaker 1: And it was also one of those things that I
Speaker 1: actually thought might kill me because it was so painful,
Speaker 1: but it actually was a blessing in disguise. I mean,
Speaker 1: the insight and the person that Grant turned into and
Speaker 1: the other side of that is just remarkable. And it
Speaker 1: brought me and my ex back together as friend and
Speaker 1: like we learned how to co parent because of all that,
Speaker 1: and even my younger son really bet I mean, it
Speaker 1: was all like such an amazing blessing. At the time,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have ever i mean asked for that, you know.
Speaker 1: And so it was like the both and and the
Speaker 1: odds and the duality of what I was living. And
Speaker 1: then I came out of that situation, you know, and
Speaker 1: rushed back into another relationship that was like now I'm
Speaker 1: looking for like real love because I didn't feel like
Speaker 1: I had it the way I wanted it in my
Speaker 1: first marriage. And then I jump into that, you know,
Speaker 1: And at that time we were like, you know, it
Speaker 1: was right before that I met him, like five months
Speaker 1: before the pandemic, and I was already kind of like
Speaker 1: transitioning out of dry Bar in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: because the company was so big, we had so many
Speaker 1: people running it now, and what I was doing on
Speaker 1: a day to day basis wasn't really there anymore. And
Speaker 1: and now I was like, you know, just looking for
Speaker 1: love and like and then I found it and I.
Speaker 2: Was like, oh, I think this is what it's supposed
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 1: And I was, you know, madly in love with this man,
Speaker 1: and I wasn't paying attention to anything else, you know,
Speaker 1: and to any of the red flags that were there
Speaker 1: that I now really see you we're there. And so
Speaker 1: I again to your question, which is such a good one,
Speaker 1: like I couldn't hold both.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: It was like I now I was like stepping away
Speaker 1: from Drybar and now I was stepping.
Speaker 2: Into just love.
Speaker 1: And I lost completely lost myself on that side.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: It was like I lost myself in the dry Bar
Speaker 1: world and put my love life and even my kids
Speaker 1: a little bit on hold. And now I was in
Speaker 1: the other side of it where I'm madly in love,
Speaker 1: and I lost the other side of my own personal purpose,
Speaker 1: you know, and I kind of enmeshed into his world.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, And now, as
Speaker 1: you know, we're going through a divorce and I could
Speaker 1: never have imagined that would happen. But on on the
Speaker 1: other side of it, I'm like, oh, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like what I haven't learned yet, which I'm hoping
Speaker 1: I get now, is that, you know, I have to
Speaker 1: keep myself intact, like what do I love and what
Speaker 1: do I want to be doing?
Speaker 2: And can I love somebody.
Speaker 1: Else while I'm in that place, because I would throw
Speaker 1: everything else out the windows.
Speaker 2: Like when I was building Drybar, it was like only Drybar.
Speaker 1: When I was like falling in love with this new man,
Speaker 1: it was only him, and I lost myself and like
Speaker 1: he was building a business and he was really busy
Speaker 1: and he had little kids and whatever, and so I
Speaker 1: threw myself into his world and like kind of forgot
Speaker 1: about myself and even now and hasn't been that long,
Speaker 1: but I'm like coming back into my own and I'm
Speaker 1: like this book and I have all these projects and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I'm getting back to myself and I
Speaker 1: would like to have love too, but like also, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm so it's such a good question. I love
Speaker 1: that you asked it because I haven't been able to
Speaker 1: find it yet and I get it now and now
Speaker 1: I'm like anxious to like try it out, you know,
Speaker 1: and be like, can I be in love madly in love,
Speaker 1: have the right kind of love with a person and
Speaker 1: myself and what I'm doing. I haven't been able to
Speaker 1: figure that out yet. And I think, you know, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us it falls one of those
Speaker 1: things inevitably fall by the way. I guess. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know how other people's lives are.
Speaker 1: Like, you know, I just you know, it's funny. I
Speaker 1: was we were talking to a couple recently and they
Speaker 1: were the wife said something like, you know, our marriage
Speaker 1: is good enough, and I was like, you know, and
Speaker 1: she said it in front of her husband, and the
Speaker 1: husband was like, you know, and I was like, there're
Speaker 1: definitely some stuff going back over there. But it is
Speaker 1: interesting and it's like, how do you do that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you guys, No.
Speaker 3: I mean I don't. The first thing is the challenging
Speaker 3: thing about any relationship, whether it's business or marriage, is
Speaker 3: that there's two minds. And as we know, our mind
Speaker 3: is always changing and growing and evolving. Now imagine that
Speaker 3: times too. Are they changing at the same time in
Speaker 3: the same way?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, Are they having the same thought at the same
Speaker 3: time every day? No? Do they have the same dreams
Speaker 3: and aspirations every day? No? And so we should be
Speaker 3: more surprised when people get together and stayed together than
Speaker 3: when people said and move apart. It's actually remarkable that
Speaker 3: anyone could spend their life with another person for a
Speaker 3: long amount of time than it is that people find
Speaker 3: it hard to stay.
Speaker 1: I mean that statement in and of itself makes me
Speaker 1: feel so good, because it's like, I've had this shame.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be divorced once, and now I'm
Speaker 1: heading into divorced twice. And I really I think a
Speaker 1: lot of my sadness and grief when this first happened
Speaker 1: was because I was like embarrassed and I was like, I, what,
Speaker 1: like this second marriage, I'm getting divorced again, like holy shit,
Speaker 1: you know, and just all the like shame, what's wrong
Speaker 1: with me? But it's such, which is why I really
Speaker 1: love and I hope people who are listening to that
Speaker 1: like feel that too, because and I was telling you before,
Speaker 1: like I get a lot of people who now reach
Speaker 1: out to me and they're like, I'm really unhappy in
Speaker 1: my marriage.
Speaker 2: Should I leave my husband?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know, don't ask me, but
Speaker 1: like it's a good thing to ask yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: And I do think you're right. It's like we grow
Speaker 1: and change and you know, and in my case, I
Speaker 1: don't think we were having the conversations enough. That's like,
Speaker 1: and we ignored a lot of things. And granted it
Speaker 1: was like a really weird time and our relationship got
Speaker 1: very fast tracked because of COVID, and like we moved
Speaker 1: in together after five months. I don't know that we
Speaker 1: would have done that had COVID not thrust this like
Speaker 1: very crazy change into all of our lives. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it all happened the way it was supposed
Speaker 1: to you. But it is a like, yeah, we're always
Speaker 1: growing and changing and how do you do that together?
Speaker 3: There's two kind of thought experiments that I think can
Speaker 3: help people with what we're talking about, not as solutions,
Speaker 3: but as And it's what you just said, if you're
Speaker 3: not having the right conversations with yourself and if you're
Speaker 3: not having the right conversations with that person, yeah, everything's
Speaker 3: going to feel like a surprise. Yeah, And everything's going
Speaker 3: to kind of be a random event. And all you
Speaker 3: can do. You can't make someone stay with you, and
Speaker 3: you can't make something work. All you can actually do
Speaker 3: is track whether you're getting closer or moving further apart.
Speaker 3: That's actually all you can do is track and monitor,
Speaker 3: because like I said, so much is changing all the time,
Speaker 3: and so all you can do is track change. You
Speaker 3: can't force a result or a direction. You can only
Speaker 3: track change and try and move closer together and move apart.
Speaker 3: And it's what you said, like I think, when we
Speaker 3: think about the word balance, if you think about it,
Speaker 3: we all have a finite number of hours, we have
Speaker 3: a finite number of resources, and we have a finite
Speaker 3: number of amount of energy. So if you had one
Speaker 3: hundred percent and you said you've got yourself, you've got
Speaker 3: your partner, you got your work, you've got your kids,
Speaker 3: and then you've got your family, and you put twenty
Speaker 3: percent into each of those, Now you're going to get
Speaker 3: a twenty percent result on each of those. That's a
Speaker 3: balance life if we look at it in that way.
Speaker 3: So if it doesn't work, or it may work for someone,
Speaker 3: but the idea then being okay, well, now you got
Speaker 3: like a eighty percent return on your career, which means
Speaker 3: eighty percent of your energy was going into the work part,
Speaker 3: which means then five percent was going to all the others.
Speaker 1: You've got a huge as Yeah that was me in
Speaker 1: the driver error.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, And so when we look at that, we
Speaker 3: just go, well, how can any human ever achieve perfection?
Speaker 3: Any human, including me, including everyone. We're so everyone is
Speaker 3: so limited that our ability to make everything and everyone
Speaker 3: happy and successful is mathematically impossible. So if it's mathematically impossible,
Speaker 3: let's stop pretending that we're able to nail every part
Speaker 3: of every life. And let's be honest and say I'm
Speaker 3: focusing on this in this era or this phase, or
Speaker 3: this month or this year. That naturally means I can't
Speaker 3: focus on these three areas. And I think people who
Speaker 3: stay together or adapt or whatever in a healthy way
Speaker 3: are people who found a way of saying, I understand
Speaker 3: what you're focusing on, and I get that and I
Speaker 3: respect it. But guess what, when you're back and you
Speaker 3: have time, I may be focusing on something else. And
Speaker 3: so I think anyone who's navigating their relationship in a
Speaker 3: healthier way, there's no better or worse, but in a
Speaker 3: way that we would consider healthier. It's only because two
Speaker 3: people are communicating, as you said, enough when they're just
Speaker 3: having conversations. It doesn't mean there's a perfect standard, or
Speaker 3: there's complete intimacy at all times, or they're having the
Speaker 3: best you know, sexual relationships at all times while everything
Speaker 3: else is going on like just mathematically impossible.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting too, because I think you
Speaker 1: don't want your avoiding dealing with something that you know
Speaker 1: is there. It's like you said, you're not always going
Speaker 1: to be on the same page. You're not going to
Speaker 1: you're going to grow differently and whatever, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, in our case, it was like we weren't
Speaker 1: you have to again. I don't mean to be like
Speaker 1: a broken record, but going back to like you're in
Speaker 1: that inner voice of like you know, for me, I
Speaker 1: knew there were things that weren't right. And I think now,
Speaker 1: and you know, I work with therapists and coach and
Speaker 1: I have lots of people, you know, because I love
Speaker 1: getting is I love getting as much? I mean now,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I love the feedback. Give me all the feedback,
Speaker 1: Like I really want to hear as many perspectives as
Speaker 1: I can and from people that like I really trust
Speaker 1: and admire. And you know, one of the things that
Speaker 1: I was talking to my coach about recently was like,
Speaker 1: because I've I've been trying to like put a bow
Speaker 1: on this to like make myself feel better about it
Speaker 1: not working, and I've come to realize like if well,
Speaker 1: I'm like, if we had had the conversation that we
Speaker 1: weren't having, you know, the right I mean, you're shaking
Speaker 1: your head because you know what I'm gonna say, What
Speaker 1: if we had talked about the thing, maybe it would
Speaker 1: have worked. Maybe it wouldn't have worked, Like obviously nobody
Speaker 1: nobody knows, you know, And and and he and I
Speaker 1: had that conversation in the aftermath of all of this,
Speaker 1: like had we called out, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: big things that wasn't working for us early on that
Speaker 1: we both did not want to call out because it
Speaker 1: would have potentially probably meant that the end of the relationship,
Speaker 1: and we didn't want that. You know. We were very
Speaker 1: like wrapped up in like the excitement and the newness
Speaker 1: and the lust and the chemistry and the passion and
Speaker 1: all the things that happened when you're brain. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure there's some science on like what
Speaker 1: happens to her, Yeah, but you know, and so we weren't.
Speaker 1: We didn't have those conversations. And perhaps had we had it,
Speaker 1: maybe it would have shifted and we could have figured
Speaker 1: something out that would have changed the directory of our
Speaker 1: relationship and it maybe it had worked, and maybe it
Speaker 1: wouldn't have.
Speaker 2: But we didn't even.
Speaker 1: Have the conversation, you know. And that's the thing. It's like,
Speaker 1: you have to have those honest conversations in work, in business,
Speaker 1: you know, in business, in your personal life, and if
Speaker 1: you're avoiding them, it's going to come back around.
Speaker 2: Like you can be sure of that, you know.
Speaker 3: I always say there are like there are four check
Speaker 3: ins that I do with my wife regularly, and so
Speaker 3: every day I try and ask a simple one what
Speaker 3: was your highlight of the day, or what was exciting today,
Speaker 3: which is an easy one. Anyone can ask that very
Speaker 3: simple Every week or month, I ask, you, know, is
Speaker 3: there something coming up that I can help you with?
Speaker 3: Like is there something you're struggling with or something that's
Speaker 3: on your mind that I need to be aware of
Speaker 3: or conscious of? Every quarter I ask is this relationship
Speaker 3: going in the direction you want? Or is it going
Speaker 3: in the direction? Ife one? If it isn't, what are
Speaker 3: we both willing to do to put it in the
Speaker 3: right direction? Are you willing to do something? And am I?
Speaker 3: And then every year a simple one of like, well,
Speaker 3: what's your goal this year? Or what are you pursuing
Speaker 3: this year? And those four questions or checkings don't save
Speaker 3: a relationship. They do what I was saying earlier is
Speaker 3: they help you track whether you're on the same page
Speaker 3: or you're completely on another page, and if you're even
Speaker 3: aware and conscious. And the reason you have to do
Speaker 3: that is those should be four checkings you do with yourself.
Speaker 3: Coming back to your point, like checking in with every
Speaker 3: day and going myself, what's my highlight today? Checking with
Speaker 3: myself every week or every month and going, hey, what
Speaker 3: do I need help with this month? Who have I
Speaker 3: asked for that. Every quarter is my life going in
Speaker 3: the direction that I wanted to go in? And every
Speaker 3: year what am I pursuing? Like If I'm not checking
Speaker 3: in that with myself and I'm not checking in that
Speaker 3: with my wife, then how can I know myself? And
Speaker 3: how can I know this human? And I think the
Speaker 3: assumption that I know someone like i've you know, me
Speaker 3: and my wife have only been together for ten years,
Speaker 3: But it's all I know is that she's constantly evolving,
Speaker 3: growing human. Sure, just because she's over thirty doesn't mean
Speaker 3: that she's fully formed and done. God no, and neither
Speaker 3: am I. And just like your children are growing up,
Speaker 3: your son's are changing and growing, I think we assume
Speaker 3: that kids grow and adults stay the same. Yeah, And
Speaker 3: it's like, well, wait a minute, that's so untrue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I.
Speaker 3: Think that's what I'm always trying to stop my mind
Speaker 3: from normalizing that. Oh I know her now, Oh I
Speaker 3: know how she's going to react.
Speaker 1: Isn't it. It's such a like that fixed mindset. And
Speaker 1: I'm so guilty of that because I'm such a like
Speaker 1: I want everything wrapped up in a pretty bow. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I like things like really neat and clean and tidy,
Speaker 1: like physically you know that. I'm like, I just want
Speaker 1: to know what's happening, and like, you know, accepting uncertainty
Speaker 1: and like life is completely uncertain and if you can
Speaker 1: surrender to that, like but it's just it's hard.
Speaker 2: It is really hard to.
Speaker 1: Be like, Okay, I'm gonna like go with the flow.
Speaker 1: And I've read that who is it? Firstly's daughter wrote
Speaker 1: a book called Be Like Water, you know, And I
Speaker 1: was like, and I love when I remember it because
Speaker 1: I feel like I need like posters all over my
Speaker 1: house of like all the thing that you just said
Speaker 1: and all these things you're like, oh, yeah, you can't
Speaker 1: fight the current, Like you can't, you know, you can't
Speaker 1: fight it. And it's like if you can surrender to it,
Speaker 1: and like, you know, and that the fact that we
Speaker 1: are always changing and growing. And I love that you
Speaker 1: said about tracking it and and I think there was
Speaker 1: a phase in our relationship when we were doing more
Speaker 1: of like check ins and we probably had listened to
Speaker 1: something like this and we're like, oh, we should be
Speaker 1: checking in more. And then eventually we stopped doing this
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh man, we lost we lost our
Speaker 1: way you know, and it's just so easy to do that,
Speaker 1: and you know it and it really does like straddle
Speaker 1: defence on business and personal because I did it all
Speaker 1: the time in the dry bar era when I would like,
Speaker 1: you know, stop paying attention to what was going on
Speaker 1: people around me and stopped having you know, those conversations
Speaker 1: like I really needed to be having, and just like
Speaker 1: would get all like sulky, and you know, like why
Speaker 1: wouldn't Why wasn't I having those conversations? I was, I
Speaker 1: was causing my own suffering, you know. And it's like
Speaker 1: we just as humans do that, which I you know,
Speaker 1: which I think is like the self awareness piece. It's
Speaker 1: like the things that we use to nurture ourselves, like
Speaker 1: what we're listening to, what we're watching, what we're reading,
Speaker 1: you know, if you kind of sometimes I'm like, especially
Speaker 1: in the last few months, having gone through going through
Speaker 1: my divorce and being so sad, and I'm like ingesting
Speaker 1: so many books and so many things, and I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've read enough, I'm done. I'm good. But then I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I got to keep I mean, I got
Speaker 1: to do at least a couple of things a day.
Speaker 1: That like keep me on that spiritual path, you know,
Speaker 1: And it's like, what's the word I'm looking for. I
Speaker 1: don't want to say it's like a job or responsibility habit,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, It's like it's so important. It's so
Speaker 1: easy to lose track of that, especially when like something
Speaker 1: you get really excited or you meet somebody new and
Speaker 1: you're like, which is exactly what I do. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy now. I'm like, I got it. I
Speaker 1: don't get I only to do with any of that
Speaker 1: stuff anymore, Like, you know, yeah, I remember and ruled in.
Speaker 3: I want to thank you for being like honest about
Speaker 3: it and so real and being so messy about it,
Speaker 3: because I think that's all of us, right, Like that's
Speaker 3: what we're all looking for, and we're all looking to
Speaker 3: have a perfect start and a perfect end, and we're
Speaker 3: all looking to have like the perfect person and the
Speaker 3: perfect relationship with ourselves, and none of that exists. Talk
Speaker 3: me through this, because I have so many friends who,
Speaker 3: like you, would feel shame and guilt for getting divorced
Speaker 3: and so they never will. Or I have a couple
Speaker 3: of friends that have kind of had the courage to
Speaker 3: get to the other side, but they now experience the
Speaker 3: judgment or they feel the shame that comes from other
Speaker 3: people's projection of it. Yeah, what is the hardest thing
Speaker 3: about getting divorced? Like, what's the toughest part about it?
Speaker 2: I've been on both sides of it.
Speaker 1: Now, you know, we're the first of wars after sixteen years,
Speaker 1: you know, feeling like I did, the love that I wanted,
Speaker 1: an intimacy that I wanted wasn't there. So I was like,
Speaker 1: it was funny because I when I first left the marriage,
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, like rearing to go, and
Speaker 1: I was like dating really quickly and all of that.
Speaker 1: And then very quickly the thing happened with my son,
Speaker 1: and then I realized that, like dating wasn't so easy,
Speaker 1: and now I'm a single mom. And at the time,
Speaker 1: my ex didn't really want to be talking to me,
Speaker 1: and so I was like my world spun out of
Speaker 1: control and I fell into a bit of a depression.
Speaker 1: And I remember people telling me that like, even though
Speaker 1: you're not in love with your ex husband anymore, he
Speaker 1: still held like a space and energy that is no
Speaker 1: longer there, and it's like a death And I for
Speaker 1: months and months and months.
Speaker 2: I refused to believe that.
Speaker 1: I was like, it's not a death. Nobody died, like
Speaker 1: I took it very literally, and I was like he's alive.
Speaker 1: Like I would not allow my brain to like understand that,
Speaker 1: you know, until I finally did. And it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: when you it's like when the student's ready, the teacher
Speaker 1: appears mentality. And I was like, I'm sure a lot
Speaker 1: of people said it to me, but it was like
Speaker 1: I was on some show with this guy who wrote
Speaker 1: a book called Energy Speaks. Don't if you've ever heard
Speaker 1: of it, and he was talking about energy and whatever.
Speaker 1: And after the show, I pulled him aside and I
Speaker 1: like very quickly told him what was going on. And
Speaker 1: I was and how like I was, you know, coping
Speaker 1: with my divorce and I was in this depression. And
Speaker 1: he was like, listen, your husband, even though you don't
Speaker 1: love like love him like that and want to be
Speaker 1: with him, he still held an energy that's gone and
Speaker 1: that is a very big hole, like black hole for
Speaker 1: you to fill in your life. And it's just gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, take some time, which isn't rocket science. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure other people said it to me, but at
Speaker 1: that moment I was like, oh my god, HiT's right.
Speaker 1: And so that change of life of like your whole
Speaker 1: life being one way and then it becoming another way.
Speaker 1: And in my case, like my son going through rehab
Speaker 1: and that like very hard time. So it was all
Speaker 1: rolled into like just being hard and I was really
Speaker 1: sad and I and I was really struggling and you know,
Speaker 1: and then the identity stuff started to kind of creep
Speaker 1: into and so that was that was hard. I think
Speaker 1: from like more of an identity like a personal identity
Speaker 1: standpoint was hard. And like a rebuilding my life after
Speaker 1: so long, this divorce was was quite different. It felt
Speaker 1: just much more like heartbreak. Like I was heartbroken, like
Speaker 1: just heartbroken, and I'd never experienced that kind of heartbreak.
Speaker 1: I recognize now truly that it's it's for the best,
Speaker 1: and I think for both of us, for all of us,
Speaker 1: it's for the best, but it just hurts so bad
Speaker 1: that like to experience heartbreak like that where you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: someone just put it really well. That like trauma is
Speaker 1: the intersection of unexpected and overwhelm And I think that's
Speaker 1: such a simple way to understand trauma. It's like this
Speaker 1: thing you didn't see coming really and then the overwhelm
Speaker 1: of it, like the boom, you.
Speaker 2: Know, and that's kind of what it was for me.
Speaker 1: I was like, I may never recover from this, Like
Speaker 1: that's how like devastating it was. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: because I think I talked to you right around the
Speaker 1: time it was happening, and I was so sad. It's
Speaker 1: like I'm never gonna be okay, you know, and I'm
Speaker 1: you know, it's and I'm okay, you know, and i've
Speaker 1: and i've when the fog starts clear, because it's like
Speaker 1: it's real muddy when you're in it, and you know,
Speaker 1: I mean quite literally, when you're in fog, you can't see.
Speaker 1: And it's the perfect analogy to me, is like I
Speaker 1: was in so much fog around it and like my
Speaker 1: ego is all like bent out of shape. And I was,
Speaker 1: you know, and I was worried, like my kids were
Speaker 1: going to be mad at me, and I was worried
Speaker 1: what the world was going to think and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, now as the clouds and
Speaker 1: the fog started to clear, I'm like, oh no, this
Speaker 1: was not ultimately the right thing, you know, And maybe
Speaker 1: in some universe like had we have these conversations, we've
Speaker 1: done this thing, da da, maybe it.
Speaker 2: Would have been right, but it just wasn't.
Speaker 1: And this was the way it all went down, and
Speaker 1: I realized that, like, oh this there's a lot of
Speaker 1: lessons here, and there's a lot of medicine, and I've
Speaker 1: learned so much and I'm so grateful for it now,
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm still coming out of the anger
Speaker 1: of it a little bit, but I am ultimately just
Speaker 1: really grateful for all the lessons that I've learned. And
Speaker 1: I think I at this earlier I like who I
Speaker 1: am on almost every level now more than I did then.
Speaker 1: I had. It was a lot of tough lessons I
Speaker 1: had to learn, and I was looking at myself in
Speaker 1: this lens that I had not looked at myself through
Speaker 1: of like why he made that decision and why he
Speaker 1: didn't want the marriage anymore, which is just I mean,
Speaker 1: you can imagine, I mean, you put yourself in those
Speaker 1: in that for a second. If your wife was like
Speaker 1: I want to divorce right now, you you would just
Speaker 1: be like it's devastating if you're you know, in love
Speaker 1: with somebody, but then when and so I was like
Speaker 1: trying I've tried to now put myself in the very
Speaker 1: painful place of like why why didn't he want to
Speaker 1: be with me? And sure like I not not to
Speaker 1: go down the rabbit hole of like I'm a terrible
Speaker 1: person and I'm not worthy. It's not that. It's more
Speaker 1: of like, let me see what what the things were
Speaker 1: that I didn't like about myself that I can now
Speaker 1: see through his eyes, And this is not a conversation
Speaker 1: with him. This is a conversation with me and how
Speaker 1: I perceived a lot of things and the way I
Speaker 1: acted and the way I showed up a lot that
Speaker 1: I don't like. You know that I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 1: don't ever want to show up like that again. And
Speaker 1: what a gift and what a lesson to like be
Speaker 1: this better version of myself now. So to answer your question,
Speaker 1: those were like the hardest things of it, but it
Speaker 1: is I'm literally living proof that you can you will
Speaker 1: get through it. And everybody kept saying that to me,
Speaker 1: and I would grasp onto that, like when people would
Speaker 1: say it's you're going to be okay, it's gonna I
Speaker 1: promise you're going to be okay, and I would like
Speaker 1: hold on to that, like thank you. I needed other
Speaker 1: people to say it to me because I couldn't find
Speaker 1: it in myself.
Speaker 2: I could, I didn't believe it.
Speaker 1: But if enough people said it to me, like I
Speaker 1: promise you, and so many people said that to me,
Speaker 1: I promise you, You're going to be okay. It's you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's a beautiful thing to have, like a community
Speaker 1: of people around you that will tell you that and
Speaker 1: that you and I'm like, are you sure? Like do
Speaker 1: you know? And they're like, I know, you know, And
Speaker 1: it's lofty, but it's true, you.
Speaker 3: Know, So you know. What I find so hope giving
Speaker 3: about your choices is that you turned towards people, things
Speaker 3: ideas that would help and support you. And I think
Speaker 3: that that's the hard part, Like it's so easy and
Speaker 3: it's natural and should not be judged at all, but
Speaker 3: it's so easy for you to go off the reils
Speaker 3: and go in different directions. And the fact that you
Speaker 3: had the inner wisdom and the intuition to say, actually,
Speaker 3: I'm going to turn towards advice and therapy and coaching
Speaker 3: and insight and learning and reading and hearing this message
Speaker 3: from a supportive community, Like that's what I want people
Speaker 3: to take away because I want you to hear that
Speaker 3: that that's the choice we have to try and make.
Speaker 3: And something you said, this concept you're talking about, the intersection.
Speaker 3: Something sparked for me as you said that, and I
Speaker 3: was going to complete your sentence, but I didn't want
Speaker 3: to because you know, I didn't know what you were
Speaker 3: going to say, and that's why I waited, because I
Speaker 3: didn't know what you'd read or heard. But I was
Speaker 3: thinking about it that when I heard the word. When
Speaker 3: you think about trauma or even like a trigger that
Speaker 3: eventually leads to trauma, it's actually the intersection between an
Speaker 3: unexpected event but a familiar feeling. And so there's what
Speaker 3: you were talking about earlier as well, like how you
Speaker 3: repeat your parents' marriage, like the idea that it's an
Speaker 3: unexpected because you didn't think you would ever do that,
Speaker 3: but then it's a really familiar feeling and you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I feel that, or like I'm going through a divorce.
Speaker 3: Someone's asking me for a divorce. It's an unexpected event,
Speaker 3: but it's a familiar feeling of I don't like myself already,
Speaker 3: and this is a reminder of something I know deep down,
Speaker 3: and it's that familiarity with that unexpectedness that completely converges
Speaker 3: to create such disharmony and misalignment in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does because you're like, and it's amazing
Speaker 1: when you have like a great support system around you
Speaker 1: telling me that, no, you're a good person. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, my best friend and she would tell me,
Speaker 1: like we would, yes, you have culpability here, you know,
Speaker 1: and we would. She knew it my relationship very well
Speaker 1: because she's my best friend.
Speaker 2: But no, you're not a bad person.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: There are things that you had to learn about yourself
Speaker 1: and there are things that you know you want to change,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean you're a bad person. And it's
Speaker 1: hard to live in that duality of like beating yourself
Speaker 1: up in the shame that we can put on ourselves
Speaker 1: because this marriage failed. And I'm like because in the beginning,
Speaker 1: I was like, this marriage failed. You know, I'm a
Speaker 1: terrible person. No one's ever gonna love me again any
Speaker 1: any man I'm going to date and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're a marriage twice sorry se yah, you know, which
Speaker 1: isn't true, you know, but it's it is the things
Speaker 1: that you know we do, which you know I have
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time. A lot of the stuff
Speaker 1: that I read is on like, you know, mindset and
Speaker 1: the brain and how powerful the brain is and how
Speaker 1: we can change our thoughts and that stuff's also fascinating
Speaker 1: to me, you know, like that you can we have control.
Speaker 1: I didn't believe that until now, like until very recently.
Speaker 1: I was like, it is what it is, you know.
Speaker 1: But now I'm like, oh, we can change our thoughts
Speaker 1: and we can you know, decide, and it's like there's
Speaker 1: a to me, there's like a well, you still got
Speaker 1: to grieve the thing, but I can also because I
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I was I started listening to
Speaker 1: Joe Despenza.
Speaker 3: Yeah of course, yeah, he's been on the show four times.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, I think I might have discovered him through
Speaker 1: your show. Actually I love that guy and I love
Speaker 1: what he says, you know, and I but I had
Speaker 1: some people be like, yeah, his stuff is great, but
Speaker 1: like you still have to grieve the stuff, because I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm just gonna believe this, you know, And
Speaker 1: it's like, but there's still the grief over there. And
Speaker 1: I think that's another challenging part of like anything like dying,
Speaker 1: is that the grief your body physically needs to go
Speaker 1: through if you change your mindset too fast, and like
Speaker 1: you know, so it's kind of an interesting I think
Speaker 1: it's a little of both. I'm really fascinated by the
Speaker 1: whole thing the brain can do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When you look at grief and loss,
Speaker 3: it's like, there's the grief and loss of that person, right,
Speaker 3: and then there's the grief and loss of the person
Speaker 3: you were with that person, yes, And they're two different things.
Speaker 3: Because you were a particular type of yourself, there was
Speaker 3: a part of yourself that was connected to that individual.
Speaker 3: And now not only has that person gone, that part
Speaker 3: that you'd created with them has also gone and it's
Speaker 3: no longer existent. And so there's some identity is such
Speaker 3: a fascinating subject in and of itself, and it's like
Speaker 3: you weren't complete in the first place either, and so
Speaker 3: there's just so many layers to it that are so challenging.
Speaker 3: And all of these things that you're talking about, whether
Speaker 3: it's your work, your marriage, your kids, they put a
Speaker 3: spotlight onto all of this and all the gaps. What
Speaker 3: would you say was the most important lesson you took
Speaker 3: away from your first relationship and then your second relationship
Speaker 3: because you've just you were talking so much about it
Speaker 3: was all about lessons atill and what would you say
Speaker 3: was the first one that you took away from the
Speaker 3: first and then from the second? What have you taken away?
Speaker 3: What's been the big lesson that stayed with you?
Speaker 1: You know, I think for me, and it's pretty vulnerable
Speaker 1: to say, but like, it was, like, oh, I I
Speaker 1: think I rushed into both of my marriages because I
Speaker 1: didn't want to be alone and I wanted to be
Speaker 1: in a relationship, and I just wanted to be in
Speaker 1: a relationship. There were right enough. I don't think anything's
Speaker 1: that were perfect, of course, but you know, I realized
Speaker 1: there were things in both of my marriages that weren't
Speaker 1: like exactly what I wanted them to be. And again,
Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to say because it's like nothing's
Speaker 1: ever exactly what you wanted it to be. With some
Speaker 1: of the things that were happening with us, I think
Speaker 1: I actually was pretty open and honest about them. But
Speaker 1: what we weren't open and honest about was like what
Speaker 1: I actually needed it to be. And if it wasn't
Speaker 1: going to be that like, then it probably wasn't going
Speaker 1: to work. And we both needed to come to terms
Speaker 1: with that. So you know, I think the lesson is
Speaker 1: like really level setting what you need and what that
Speaker 1: other person needs, not just what you need, Like sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to be the one that's willing to say
Speaker 1: like I don't think this is gonna work because blah blah.
Speaker 1: But like to me, I don't think I've ever been
Speaker 1: strong enough to be like I'm completely in love with you,
Speaker 1: but I don't think this relationship is going to work.
Speaker 1: Like who can do that? That's so hard?
Speaker 2: I'm sure people do.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like I think about it like so silly.
Speaker 1: I think just because I've watched so many movies in
Speaker 1: my life, like Legends of the Fall. Did you ever
Speaker 1: see Legends of the Fall?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like it just it just it came
Speaker 1: to me recently. I was like, you know, you watch
Speaker 1: one of those movies and like you want the like
Speaker 1: the love story to work, and then it doesn't, and
Speaker 1: you're like and you you walk out of that movie,
Speaker 1: he's like so sad, and you're like, I just wanted
Speaker 1: them to be together, you know. And that's how I
Speaker 1: feel in this second marriage, like I really wanted it
Speaker 1: to work, and as the viewer watching the movie, you're like,
Speaker 1: I know, it wasn't right and it wasn't supposed to
Speaker 1: be and it's like, you know, and that's how I
Speaker 1: felt like Legends of the Fall, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: I feel like, oh, yeah, like why we're they together
Speaker 1: at the end? You know, you're and you watch that
Speaker 1: movie and I've watched a couple of times, such a
Speaker 1: great movie, and you're like, you know, she marries another guy,
Speaker 1: and you're like, sorry for anybody who hasn't watched a lot
Speaker 1: of that, it's been a while, yeah, And it's that
Speaker 1: is really how it's like landed for me in this
Speaker 1: Like sometimes like what we want to work just doesn't,
Speaker 1: you know, and you have to just learn to accept it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's been the big lesson for me.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, a lot of people and people
Speaker 1: close to me know and have said to me in
Speaker 1: the aftermath of this, like you've you've had things work
Speaker 1: out for you pretty well most of your life, you know,
Speaker 1: And I have, and I'm really blessed and lucky in
Speaker 1: that way. And this has been like one of the
Speaker 1: first things that like didn't work out the way I
Speaker 1: wanted to, and I couldn't control it, you know, no
Speaker 1: matter what I did, I couldn't change the outcome. And like, oof,
Speaker 1: that's rough, you know, and I'm sure and I know
Speaker 1: a lot of people have dealt with that on a
Speaker 1: much bigger and harder scale than me. And and so
Speaker 1: that was a real lesson of like surrender of like
Speaker 1: you just don't get control. You know. I look at
Speaker 1: my first marriage and think that, like we were married
Speaker 1: for so long, and for so long I didn't have
Speaker 1: that like electric chemistry love that I wanted. But yet
Speaker 1: I had these two amazing kids, and I built this
Speaker 1: great business, and so like that was enough for me.
Speaker 1: You know, in this stage of my life, I feel
Speaker 1: like I actually want more of it all now, you
Speaker 1: know where I was always like, well I have this,
Speaker 1: I don't have that, but I have this. And now
Speaker 1: I'm like, I want to do something that I really
Speaker 1: love and feel passionate about for myself and I want
Speaker 1: to have a great love too, And now I'm trying
Speaker 1: to find both.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know, Allie, like what I
Speaker 3: really appreciate about you, honestly, this conversation the book is
Speaker 3: like you're the real deal. Like a lot of people
Speaker 3: say they want to share their messy truth and they
Speaker 3: want to tell what's really going on. And I think
Speaker 3: it's almost like we're still trying to do it because
Speaker 3: it sounds and looks vulnerable, but it isn't and that's
Speaker 3: not you know, And I think that hearing from you today,
Speaker 3: all I've heard is the messy truth and it's not been.
Speaker 3: I can't think of anyone who's listening to this that
Speaker 3: isn't going to feel comforted, supported, held, and feel connected
Speaker 3: to your journey in some way. I don't think it's
Speaker 3: mathemat spiritually, emotionally possible for someone to master every area
Speaker 3: of their life perfectly at all times. I just want
Speaker 3: to throw that out there because we still keep putting
Speaker 3: it up when we say things like power couple, when
Speaker 3: we say things like oh my god, the perfect match,
Speaker 3: when we say things like you know, we don't realize
Speaker 3: how many ideas we've put into the world that oh
Speaker 3: my god, did you know they're both billionaires now? And
Speaker 3: they're both and it's like, you have no idea, just
Speaker 3: how many ideas you're we plant seeds in people's minds
Speaker 3: that these headlines exist in reality and if you're someone
Speaker 3: who knows anyone. You know that the headline is so
Speaker 3: untrue about everyone. And that doesn't mean people kin't have
Speaker 3: healthy relationships. It doesn't mean people can't have happy relationships.
Speaker 3: But do people have perfect relationships?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: And do people have perfect businesses? Know? And do people
Speaker 3: have perfect anything? No? And so's it's a mindset that
Speaker 3: we've all been so conditioned to believe. It's why we
Speaker 3: feel sad when Ryan Gosling doesn't end up with Emma Stone, Like,
Speaker 3: it's because we've been taught that that is the perfect yea,
Speaker 3: that is the perfect ending. And there's so much wiring
Speaker 3: that we have to uncross, and that's the work you're doing.
Speaker 3: And I think that that that's what I'm so appreciative
Speaker 3: of watching and observing you on this journey, is you're
Speaker 3: so courageously and bravely doing the hard un learning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a reminds me of you know, I'm sure
Speaker 1: you're familiar with Michael Singer and you know, of course, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's been a few books that I'm like, I've listened
Speaker 1: to on repeat. You're just like, I just got to
Speaker 1: keep listening to this to get like through the day.
Speaker 1: It didn't sink into me until I started thinking about
Speaker 1: the whole movie thing, which is like he was like,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're in heartbreak or you're in sadness,
Speaker 1: He's like he equated it to Again, it only connected
Speaker 1: for me recently, not when he said it, but this
Speaker 1: like idea of when you watch a movie and you
Speaker 1: get sad about something, it's like you ow and you
Speaker 1: tell all your friends about it and you talk about it.
Speaker 1: It's like you almost like the sadness and the emotion
Speaker 1: that it brings in, but it's just like when it
Speaker 1: happens to you, you don't like it quite as much.
Speaker 1: But if you can put yourself in that, like it's
Speaker 1: just your movie, you know, and you're just watching it
Speaker 1: and you're not going to feel sad forever, you know,
Speaker 1: it's such a good perspective of it. And it's funny
Speaker 1: how it's like come full circle for me of like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is my sad movie and it's sad and then
Speaker 1: it's but it's also okay, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's almost like just like a movie, when
Speaker 3: you walk in and watch one part of a movie,
Speaker 3: you don't get the full picture. Yeah, yeah, she walked
Speaker 3: in on a sad scene, or you walked in on
Speaker 3: a scene where one guy is chasing another guy and
Speaker 3: you think the guy being chased is the bad guy,
Speaker 3: but actually it's the good guy. Like, there's just so
Speaker 3: much right we look at people's lives and snapshot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 3: You can't tell who's what and who's who, and who's
Speaker 3: the villain and who's the hero. And yeah, becoming an
Speaker 3: observer in our own life is so hard to do.
Speaker 3: But Ali, we end every episode of On Purpose with
Speaker 3: the final five, and so these are your final five.
Speaker 3: They have to be answered in one word to one
Speaker 3: sentence maximum. I will ask you to go off if
Speaker 3: I feel like it. So Question number one, what is
Speaker 3: the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 1: Progress over perfection? You know, I think that we as
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs we get stuck in this and I see it
Speaker 1: all the time of like, oh, I can't start this
Speaker 1: because I don't have this and I don't know this,
Speaker 1: and I don't have enough money on this, But like
Speaker 1: just start and you know you're it's it's never going
Speaker 1: to I mean, just we just talked about this. It's
Speaker 1: never going to be perfect. But just like just go.
Speaker 2: It'll you'll you'll get it. You'll figure it out as
Speaker 2: you go.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what people don't realize that I
Speaker 3: fully agree with you, and that's where the mistakes are made.
Speaker 3: But the problem is there's no other path. So if
Speaker 3: you just waited, weighted waited, you never get never make
Speaker 3: any mistakes, but you never get anywhere. And if you
Speaker 3: start and you stumble, you will make loads of mistakes.
Speaker 3: And that's what kind of exposes you. And there's all
Speaker 3: these flaws and everything, but you got somewhere and.
Speaker 1: It's that awkward yeah, and it's like you it's hard
Speaker 1: in the moment, like anything that's like worth anything is
Speaker 1: hard in the moment. You know, it's like the mistakes
Speaker 1: are hard. It sucks, but you learn from them. And
Speaker 1: it's very cliche, but it is so true, you know,
Speaker 1: And you're right if you don't get into a relationship,
Speaker 1: like you know, I have a friend who like is
Speaker 1: like hasn't gotten into a relationship because she's kind of scared.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you just just just go and even if
Speaker 1: it's not a good one, just go and like learn
Speaker 1: from it, you know, go on that date.
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely second question, what is the worst entrepreneurship
Speaker 3: advice you've ever heard or received.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that earlier you pointed out how I you know,
Speaker 1: I took the advice from the women that I was
Speaker 1: serving in my mobile business. What I didn't do was
Speaker 1: take the advice from like a bunch of men who
Speaker 1: didn't understand this business, you know. And I'm not a
Speaker 1: big fan of like decision by committee. Yeah, and not
Speaker 1: to say that I don't want like trusted people around me.
Speaker 1: How Yeah, it's like I don't I don't believe in this,
Speaker 1: Like let me just ask a million people and then
Speaker 1: figure it out. Like I I love using you know,
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs obviously a brilliant, brilliant man. It's like nobody
Speaker 1: knew that we didn't know we needed iPhones and maybe
Speaker 1: we don't need iPhones, but like we sure love them,
Speaker 1: but but we didn't know we needed them, No, I
Speaker 1: know what you say. Yeah, Like even the I feel
Speaker 1: like I saw a preview of the new movie coming
Speaker 1: out about the founders of Blackberries.
Speaker 3: I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I saw.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I didn't dream it. And because you
Speaker 1: know the story, the story is really fascinating it's like, like,
Speaker 1: I think the premise of it is that the founder
Speaker 1: of BlackBerry, this is so aproposed to what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: It's like the people in his company came to him
Speaker 1: and said, like, I think there's something coming out. We
Speaker 1: need to change from what we're doing and like going
Speaker 1: to this smartphone world. And he was like, no, that's
Speaker 1: not gonna work. That's not gonna happen. And everybody in
Speaker 1: the company was like, only is gonna happen. And obviously
Speaker 1: we know what happened, and BlackBerry went away, which, by
Speaker 1: the way, my brother like had the last BlackBerry standing
Speaker 1: as he loved the little button. A lot of people did,
Speaker 1: and the BlackBerry was like revolutionary. They were amazing. They
Speaker 1: were the first thing, you know. But this this the story,
Speaker 1: as I believe it's set up in the preview, is
Speaker 1: like that company could have taken the similar paths as
Speaker 1: iPhone did, but they didn't. And again I'm loosely remembering
Speaker 1: the story, but I just think it's really fascinating that
Speaker 1: you got something. You got to just like try something
Speaker 1: and see if it's going to work, and see, I
Speaker 1: people are gonna want it. And I'm I've always been
Speaker 1: a massive fan of Steve Jobs, and I'm like so
Speaker 1: many others and the iPhone, and you know, it's like
Speaker 1: it's just so cool like this, you know, he.
Speaker 2: Invented this thing that became this thing.
Speaker 1: You know, and so you know, I feel like, don't
Speaker 1: ever get too caught up on what people think of
Speaker 1: your idea. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you remind me of a famous quote from Henry Ford.
Speaker 3: He said, if I would have asked people what they wanted,
Speaker 3: they would have said faster horses. Yeah, and like that that.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's great because that is what it is.
Speaker 3: If you do that committee in that focus group. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you can't necessarily think beyond what you see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, and so many ideas don't make it,
Speaker 1: So many ideas fail and lots of them don't work,
Speaker 1: but like might as well, somebody's got to try.
Speaker 2: We wouldn't get anywhere, you.
Speaker 3: Know, absolutely, all right. Question number three, what is one habit, mindset,
Speaker 3: or practice that you believe every entrepreneur should try.
Speaker 1: To develop some sort of awareness practice, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's through entrepreneurship, Like I listen to your meditations all
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, and I've gotten into this place of
Speaker 1: every morning before I now not always, but most of
Speaker 1: the time. I before I get on my phone and
Speaker 1: check all my stuff and do all the things like
Speaker 1: I like keep my phone on sleep mode and get
Speaker 1: into a meditation while like I'm still in bed, and
Speaker 1: I think that like quiet time in the morning, and
Speaker 1: then I'll usually like write for a little while, not
Speaker 1: even like a page, you know, just something to get
Speaker 1: like like the cobwebs out almost, you know. And I
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's just important as a human,
Speaker 1: but you know, as a as an entrepreneur, just like
Speaker 1: you know, like level set yourself and I and I
Speaker 1: really try to do it before I go to bed
Speaker 1: at night too.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I always go to sleep now, whether I'm really tired
Speaker 1: or not, to like some sort of like sleep meditation.
Speaker 1: I think I only catch like the first like five
Speaker 1: or ten minutes. Yeah, but I really love that. And
Speaker 1: I never had a practice like that before. And I'll
Speaker 1: tell you I never had a practice like that until
Speaker 1: my separation happened, and I was like, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: by myself. We used to like watch TV and then
Speaker 1: fall asleep and like again that was that's like one
Speaker 1: of those things. And I'm like, I'm so glad. I
Speaker 1: almost never turned my TV out of my bedroom anymore.
Speaker 1: And I know that probably a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: believe even in that. And I'm actually about to move
Speaker 1: and I'm like, don't want to put a TV in
Speaker 1: my bedroom because I feel like I almost never watched
Speaker 1: TV in my room anymore, because by the time I
Speaker 1: get in bed, I usually want to read, I want
Speaker 1: to do my meditation, I want to write, and by
Speaker 1: the time I do all that, I'm so tired. And
Speaker 1: I also, I don't know, I pick up so much
Speaker 1: random information. But I heard somewhere somebody said it. Maybe
Speaker 1: it was you, who knows because I watched much of
Speaker 1: your stuff, but like, by ten thirty, you should be
Speaker 1: off screens.
Speaker 2: I think it was maybe Huberman who said it.
Speaker 1: And because from ten ten thirty to four, it's like
Speaker 1: your brain starts to go into depression. Again. I don't
Speaker 1: remember the science, but I was like, whether it's true
Speaker 1: or not, I like this, like I want to I
Speaker 1: want to be off my devices by ten thirty and
Speaker 1: so that's really my goal now, which I used to
Speaker 1: stay up and watch TV till like midnight. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I don't do that. Anymore. I feel
Speaker 1: so much better. I mean, I was also on a
Speaker 1: mission to like I got to feel better here, like
Speaker 1: I got to get out of this depression and the sadness,
Speaker 1: so I better do everything I can do. And now
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I'm not really that sad anymore. I'm
Speaker 1: not sad anymore. But I think I should still keep
Speaker 1: doing these things, you know, and so that I think
Speaker 1: is important to have that kind of practice.
Speaker 2: And I really have come to love it.
Speaker 3: That's beautiful. I love it all right. Question fourum five.
Speaker 3: Question number four, how would you define your current purpose?
Speaker 1: That's very clear to me right now is like giving back,
Speaker 1: being of service, Like I feel really called to, like
Speaker 1: help others in lots of ways, Like I'm starting this
Speaker 1: volunteer program at COCHLA, which I feel really called to.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at me some stuff with animals, and I
Speaker 1: do a lot of mentoring for other entrepreneurs. You know.
Speaker 1: In some things there's like you know, money involved, and
Speaker 1: I'm speaking at things and you know, and I think
Speaker 1: that that's okay and good. And then there's some things
Speaker 1: I'm just donating my time, but it's all in like
Speaker 1: in the name of service. It's beautiful for sure, right now?
Speaker 3: I love that? All right. Fifth and final question, which
Speaker 3: we asked to every guest who's ever been on the show,
Speaker 3: if you could create one law that everyone in the
Speaker 3: world had to follow, what would it be, Oh, to
Speaker 3: be kind?
Speaker 1: We're just so divided because of you know, it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's deeper than that, but it's
Speaker 1: like this notion of like, you know, even I said,
Speaker 1: I read something the other day that was like, anger
Speaker 1: is just grief. We had to like it was just
Speaker 1: like innate in us to be kind to other people,
Speaker 1: like you imagine totally what kind of world it would be?
Speaker 1: So much better?
Speaker 3: Well said everyone. In the book is called a Messy
Speaker 3: Truth How I sold my business for millions but almost
Speaker 3: lost myself by a New York Times bestselling author, Alli Web.
Speaker 3: You can grab the book right now. It's out right now,
Speaker 3: Share it, make you yourn, next book club pick, discuss it,
Speaker 3: dissect it. I mean, if you want to have a
Speaker 3: real entrepreneurial story and journey in your hand, this is
Speaker 3: the one to have. Ali, thank you so much for
Speaker 3: coming on the show today. This is amazing, genuinely being
Speaker 3: so open and honest and courageous in your own life
Speaker 3: and here and I look forward to continuing our new relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 3: very grateful for it. Thank you so much, Thank you
Speaker 3: so much for having me. If you love this episode,
Speaker 3: you will also love my interview with Charles Douhig on
Speaker 3: how to hack your brain, change any habit effortlessly, and
Speaker 3: the secret to making better decisions. Look, am I hesitating
Speaker 3: on this because I'm scared of making the choice because
Speaker 3: I'm scared of doing the work, Or am
Speaker 1: I sitting with this because it just doesn't feel right
Speaker 1: yet