1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hi, 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 2: you guys, So today on Killer Thriller Docu Edition, we 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 2: are diving into the case behind Baby Dough. This one 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: is This one hit me different, you guys, and for 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: those of you that have seen it, I'm so interested 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: in how you felt about it. So thirty years ago, 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 2: Gail Ritchie, a young woman from a conservative Christian community 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: in rural Ohio, gave birth alone and left her newborn 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 2: in the woods. Now a devoted mother of three, her 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: quiet suburban life shatters when DNA evidence links her to 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: the infamous cold case of Goga's child. I'm sorry because 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: it's the name of the town, you guys. They sort 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: of adopted the baby, and I'm probably mispronouncing the town. 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: I don't remember exactly how it's pronounced anyway. Arrested for 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: murder and vilified in the media, authorities did miss her 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: claim that the baby was still born. Facing a possible 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: life sentence, Gale and her family must confront religious stigma, 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: community judgment, and long buried shame in the fight for 20 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: her freedom. And I really if you guys would comment 21 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: and write in and I'm dying to know how you 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: all feel after watching this, because this one in particular, 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: you know a lot of these, we watch them and 24 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: then we are enraged, or then we are afraid, or 25 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: we are dumbfounded and angry. The only emotion I had 26 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: after watching this crime documentary was just pure sadness. So anyway, 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: we are going to bring in Lucky enough, we have 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: the director here. Her name is Jessica Earnshaw, and we're 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: going to bring her in and ask her some serious questions. 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: All right, let's bring in Jessica. 31 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: Hi, how are you well? 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us. Of course, I 33 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: have to first say that you know, this is what 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: we do, we do true crime, and I want to say, 35 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 2: outside of this particular documentary, I'm left feeling angry, sickened, dumbfounded, afraid. 36 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: I think this is I think this is the first time, 37 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: maybe not the first, but it stands out to me 38 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: that I just feel so sad, Like this left me 39 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: so sad. And so that's that's sort of the first 40 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: thing I wanted to say. And it was really really 41 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: it is really really powerful. So congratulations to you. I 42 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 2: know you've been working on it a long time. 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I started in twenty twenty, so, yeah, it's 44 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: been like five years because. 45 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 2: I have also, I don't think seen a documentary where 46 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: it's so documented. I mean, you guys got and I'm 47 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: wondering how you did do that. I mean you really 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 2: I feel like the story from for the past however 49 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: many years, you've got all of it, you know, the 50 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: personal pieces of it. I feel like I, I don't know, 51 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 2: kind of went through it with Gail and the richies 52 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: and the attorneys, and you just did you just set 53 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: up cameras there for the past however many years. 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: Well, I first met Gail and Ritchie in the summer 55 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one. I'd actually started the film on 56 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: Emily Weaver and film with her family for a year, okay, 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: but when I met Gailan and Mark, Yeah, I come 58 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: into it asking for pretty full access, like I was 59 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: looking to follow someone, and I was just I was 60 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: looking for our case next to Emily's, because I wanted 61 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: to kind of show the whole process of going through 62 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: a trial. So I explained to them that I was 63 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: looking kind of for a collaboration in the sense that 64 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: they allow me into everything, the good, the bad, the sad, everything, 65 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: and I was also asking the same from the attorneys. 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 3: So that's kind of how it started. 67 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: And at that point she was probably about ten months 68 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: away from the trial. And I, I mean, I did 69 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: the same on my film just sent to my first film, 70 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Just Senta, I also filmed that much like I really 71 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: like to be there for everything and watch the story 72 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: as it unfolds. So with Gail and Mark, I was 73 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: there like every day. And also part of that is 74 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: so I can kind of I can be invisible and 75 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: be part of the fabric of their lives. Yeah, so 76 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: I'm not making I'm not just coming in when I 77 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: know or think something's going to happen. I'm there for 78 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: all the kind of more mundane moments as well. 79 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, listen, I felt like I was 80 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 2: there so clearly you did an unbelievable job and it 81 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: was just so heartbreaking to be there. I wonder if 82 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: Gale and Mark and their attorneys thought that if this, 83 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 2: if it didn't go the way that they wanted to it, 84 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: would they would have all of this, all of this 85 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: documentation and insight into their side. I mean, was that 86 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: part of the reason they said yes to you? 87 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 3: I think for the. 88 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: Richies most likely because I mean when I first went 89 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,559 Speaker 1: in and met with them at their attorney's office, Gail 90 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: really didn't have any intention to allow me to film like, 91 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't she wasn't interested that interested. She 92 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: had really been torn apart by the media. I mean, 93 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: Gioga's child had been followed for twenty seven years and 94 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: then actually on the anniversary every year, they did a 95 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: story on it. 96 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 3: Gail wasn't aware. 97 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: Of any of those stories because she just doesn't watch 98 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: the news like she's a Hallmark movie watcher. Yeah, but 99 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 1: when when all this happened, she really like it blew 100 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: up and it was a pretty like I mean they 101 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: were outside her house all the time, the press like 102 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: it was pretty awful for her. 103 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 3: And so I think she agreed to. 104 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: Do it, ultimately do this film because when I told 105 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: her about Emily, and I'd spent a lot of time 106 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: with Emily and her family, I to Gail that I 107 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: was really interested in bringing awareness to pregnancy denial in 108 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: these cases from more of an understanding of how this happens. 109 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: And she agreed to do it because she felt like 110 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: her story could help Emily, because Emily had a life 111 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: without a parole sentence and right right, so and so 112 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: for a girl, it was to help Emily more so 113 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: than herself. And I think with Mark and Stephen, I 114 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: think they both felt that having an in depth story 115 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: on her would it hurt at all. I think it 116 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: would be more beneficial so people could understand their sur. 117 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: Right right with Emily. Please remind me there were several 118 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: women that you showcased in the film who had experienced 119 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: and had gone through this in terms of having a baby. 120 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: And I don't what word can we use. It doesn't 121 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: sound so awful discarding or were separating from but any 122 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: whatever it is, but it can't help but put it 123 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: that way after watching the film anyway, So was Emily 124 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: the one where they wouldn't let any kind of doctor 125 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: slash psychiatrists specialist into the courtroom? Am I remembering? I mean, 126 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: I know they didn't also but with Gail, But I'm 127 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: just saying, was that Emily? Was that the one that 128 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: she just got? 129 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? 130 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: So Emily ten years ago now, because she was sentenced 131 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: ten years ago, they didn't bring a psychologist into the courtroom. 132 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: And I don't even think they mentioned pregnancy denial inta 133 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: saying so she received life with Ouveral And the reason 134 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: you see the psychology brought into the courtroom in the 135 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: film is because they appealed her sentence to the Ohio 136 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: Supreme Court on the fact. 137 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: Right right right, which is biased right. 138 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: And it was unfair that the psychology wasn't in, so 139 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:49,559 Speaker 1: they were able to bring it in later. 140 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious in terms of so you had had 141 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: this experience with Emily and approached Gale, did you have 142 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: already a feeling about this case, about her innocence or 143 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: her guilt, or you know, did you go into it 144 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: wanting to help exonerate her? 145 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: Not really, I mean I went into it. I mean 146 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: I definitely went into it with an open mind. I 147 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: do feel like what I try to do on all 148 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: my films is like I do a ton of research, 149 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: but then I try to walk in and like forget 150 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: it all and then let it like it kind of 151 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: wash over me the story. I have to say, though, 152 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: when I did meet Gail, and I was looking for 153 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: a story and it didn't have to be Gail's, so 154 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: they said no to me, I was going to keep 155 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: going to find someone else because there were so many 156 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: and I was tracking in the news. I was looking 157 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: for a woman that I in first reaction, first instinct, 158 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,239 Speaker 1: I liked and like felt something. For my first impression 159 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: on Gail was that she was holding a ton like 160 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: she didn't have the words to explain her experience so 161 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: much as like I could feel it on her me too, 162 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: the weight of the world, like the weight of and 163 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: not just the world, but her family, just what it 164 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: had happened. So I think it was a journey in 165 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: a similar way for the audience I think going through it. 166 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: I think there's periods of time from what I've heard 167 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: from people who watched, you know, you kind of go 168 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: back and forth and trying to understand Gail. And that 169 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: was my experience at the beginning. I didn't do an 170 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: interview with her until after a number of trial preps 171 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: had happened, and so basically I just for your audience, 172 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: Like I was following her trial preps with her attorneys 173 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: where they would kind of prepare for trial and ask 174 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: her a bunch of questions. And I found that in 175 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: the trial preps she had a really difficult time remembering 176 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: how she felt about around the pregnancy and and even. 177 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 4: Like remembering it right, she although the details of it, 178 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 4: I felt like she had pretty good like details as 179 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 4: far as he was in the house and all this stuff, 180 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 4: but as far as how she felt, that was just 181 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 4: not there. 182 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 3: And so when I had an interview with her later, 183 00:09:58,640 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 3: I really had. 184 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: A differ front perspective on her because I just felt 185 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: like Gail doesn't know how to ask for help like 186 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: she does she hates conflict, but she also did not 187 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: know how to ask for help for herself. And when 188 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: she takes the baby basically out to the woods, and 189 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: this is very typical of these girls, Like across the board, 190 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: the baby is perceived as dead, and that could be 191 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: the case. I actually was talking to a doctor the 192 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: other day that told me that with no prenatal care, 193 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: you're three times more likely to have low birth weight 194 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: and you're five times more likely to die than a 195 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: mother who does have prenatal care. 196 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 2: Wow. 197 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: So these women are often putting babies in garbage bags 198 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: and putting them in the trash cans or whatever. And 199 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: so in Gail's case, she left the baby in the 200 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: snow in the woods, and she perceived that baby is 201 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: not alive, but she didn't bury the baby like I think. 202 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: In some ways, I got the impression that Gail was 203 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: hoping that someone would find that baby, not because she 204 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: bought the baby was alive, but thought found the baby, 205 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: link it to her and help her because she, really, 206 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: like I think, did not know how to deal with this. 207 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: Wow, it's funny. I wonder if I'm going to be 208 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 2: in the majority or not so in terms of our listeners, 209 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 2: if they're going to feel the way I do. And 210 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: you know, you hear about mothers killing their babies and 211 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: automatically you're at least my first thought is monster. You 212 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 2: know what kind of monster could kill their child? And 213 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: this is I don't feel like she killed her child, 214 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: and I don't feel like she's a monster. I thought 215 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: that was really touching when the security guard from the 216 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: prison said to her, I've met a lot of monsters. 217 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 2: You are not a monster. And from the beginning, like you. 218 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 2: I liked her almost immediately or immediately, and not only that. 219 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: I love her husband and her children, and her gorgeous 220 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: grandchild and all of the friends from church who love 221 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 2: her so and so I don't think I had a 222 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: moment in the film's entirety where I was like, how 223 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: could you? And I don't know, I mean, is that me? 224 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: I wonder if our listeners are going to be like, what, Jennifer, 225 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: what are you talking about? Have you had in terms 226 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 2: of the people that you worked with on this, I 227 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: don't know the crew and the people who know about 228 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: it is what do you find that there is a 229 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: case more that people feel badly for her? Or are 230 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 2: they disgusted and angry with her? 231 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: No, definitely not discussed and angry. 232 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: I think people do you really feel for Gail. I've 233 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: had a number of people feel like they see their 234 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: own mothers in her and not really tough for certain 235 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: women to watch. I think Gail is a type of 236 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: person who's constantly thinking of others, and I think that's 237 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: the line, Like you can see that this is a 238 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: woman who's now in her fifties. She was twenty one 239 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: at the time. But the thing that's never left Gail 240 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: is her ability to always put herself last. 241 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 3: She always puts people first before her. 242 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: So I think, you know, I wasn't sure how maybe 243 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: more of a Christian audience would react to her because 244 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: of the religious components in the film, but we did. 245 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 3: We did share. 246 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: We went down to Birmingham last summer and we played 247 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: Sidewalk Film Festival, and they put us in a church 248 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: like a Unitarian church, and Pastor Royce and Patty came 249 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: down because they now really they now live nearby. And 250 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: it was an incredible experience watching with people there, because 251 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people in the audience had told told 252 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: me that they could completely understand why Gail buried it, 253 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: that she didn't have any choice in their mind. I mean, 254 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: she definitely couldn't have gotten an abortion. That would be 255 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: clearly murder for them in their minds, and they where 256 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: would she go? She grew up in that in that area, 257 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: she couldn't tell anybody without the community, like, you know, 258 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: being raged over this. 259 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: She talked about I don't know if it was her 260 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: that spoke of it, the other person that was in 261 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 2: her youth group, the other young girl who got pregnant, 262 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: and how the pastor made her confess it to the 263 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: entire congregation and Gail witnessing that right and how traumatic 264 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: that must have felt. And you know, I don't know 265 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: how much of that was at play in terms of 266 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: her denial, but I thought it was just so horrifying 267 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: to even hear the story of that, right. 268 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure that was on her mind because she actually 269 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: told me that story like three different I mean, you 270 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: interviewed somebody so long they might forget what they've told 271 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: you already. And she told me that story like three 272 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: or four times. 273 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's I'm sure that that was part 274 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: of it. And then the way Mark wanted to take 275 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: responsibility and she didn't want to place any of it 276 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: on him, and he didn't want to place any of 277 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: it on her. So like the love story you know 278 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: within the film, at least that's how it felt for me, 279 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: was so beautiful, the way that these two loved each 280 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: other and how it was. He felt like it was 281 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: his fault because he didn't ask her to marry him earlier. 282 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: And she says, none of this is on Mark, and 283 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: you know, heartbreaking really, but she has about her and 284 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: it feels to me like an innocence and a kindness. 285 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: And that's why I think it was just it felt 286 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: to me like throughout the process of the trial again, 287 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: like I don't know if I'm am I is this 288 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: just me or is this the majority? I feel like 289 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: she felt felt like a victim. She like she really 290 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: did feel like a victim to me, and especially learning 291 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: what I did about pregnancy denial, you know, throughout the film. 292 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think you're alone in that, because you know, obviously, 293 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: me and my team, especially me and my editor, like 294 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: editing the film, I mean, we felt a certain way 295 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: about her in the process of making it. 296 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: Did you ever feel a different way? Did you ever 297 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: feel like she's crazy or she's culpable? I mean anything? 298 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,479 Speaker 3: No, not really, I mean not always. 299 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: Just felt for her. 300 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: I felt for her because I also completely understand how 301 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: this could have happened in Jesse Yale. I think the 302 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: more I got to know her, the more I realized 303 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: that this is like, this was so. 304 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: It was. She was just like prime for this to happen, 305 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: you know. 306 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: I mean I think also I thought a lot about 307 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: the complicity in our society over things like this happening. 308 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: Like to me, the idem this is part of the 309 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: reason I wanted to make the film to begin with, 310 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: is that, like you know, this often happens between the 311 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: ages of sixteen and twenty one. 312 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: Somewhere in there, she. 313 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: Was twenty one. How old was she she was? 314 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: I think twenty one? 315 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, So like when I think of myself at that 316 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: age or even younger, like and not being able to 317 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: tell anybody that I'm pregnant and giving birth like in 318 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: a toilet, and oftentimes these are happening in your parents' homes. 319 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 3: Like to me, that's a tragedy. 320 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: And you know, you're really young at twenty one, you know, 321 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: and I think you're very even maybe more naive or 322 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: maybe more young when you're a girl like Gail who 323 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: is so like I mean, she's living in pretty a 324 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: pretty rural area, but also like just shy, sickx to herself, 325 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: like I mean, I think, I don't know, I just 326 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: I see it. 327 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 3: And then that scene in the film that I think is. 328 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: So important where they see a photograph of Gail Mark 329 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: and her husband and her mother and they they're like, hey, 330 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: she looks a little bit pregnant here. 331 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. That was beautifully The way that youxtaposed 332 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 2: the picture of the one angle against the other angler 333 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: they did or you did, that was so freaky, and 334 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 2: I felt like insightful, you know, I didn't connect with 335 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: her mother, to be honest with you, I didn't feel 336 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 2: And I don't know if that has to do with 337 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,239 Speaker 2: me the mother her personality. Maybe I don't know what 338 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: kind of mother she really was. I'm sure she was 339 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: a good and a loving one. But for me as 340 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: a viewer, I did not connect with that woman and 341 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 2: couldn't feel like her pain. You know, I felt Gail's 342 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 2: kids pain so acutely, and I just didn't feel that 343 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 2: from the mother, which I'm sure is not the case. 344 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: So I'll say that. But it was interesting watching because 345 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: I wanted to say how, I mean, Mark didn't know either, 346 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: How did you not know? And seeing the two different 347 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: angles was so and I know that this happens right there. 348 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: I had There was a young girl years back. I'm 349 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: in Northern Jersey, one of the towns here. She had 350 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 2: a baby in a toilet she I guess the boyfriend 351 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 2: knew about it too, and I don't remember. I think 352 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 2: it was still born and they put it into a dumbster. 353 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm remember this completely clearly right, 354 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: but without any context, right, And it was like, where 355 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: was the mother? How could you? How could this happen? 356 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 2: What do you mean you didn't know you were pregnant? 357 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: But I thought it was really interesting when the psychiatrist 358 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: talked about how the baby if it's not acknowledged, we'll 359 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: go into a vertical position in the embryos. As opposed 360 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: to a horizontal like I don't even know that. All 361 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: of this stuff was such crazy news to me, you know, 362 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: and gave me so much more insight, And I felt 363 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 2: so much sympathy towards Gail for all of this, you know, 364 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: even you know, the physicality of the whole thing, the 365 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: fact that that can happen is crazy. And then maybe 366 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: that's why the mother didn't notice. I don't know. I 367 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: think if my daughter was pregnant, I don't imagine a 368 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 2: scenario where I wouldn't notice. But we're not the same. 369 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: I don't have you know, I don't know. The way 370 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 2: that they grew up in their relationship just seems so surreal, right, 371 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: But markdin neither. 372 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: M But then you look at the photo and you 373 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: do see that, Okay, maybe she was a little bit noticeable, 374 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, and I think not. 375 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, So so to. 376 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: My point it being that if the girl doesn't notice, 377 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: but yet nobody around her notices either, and nobody around 378 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: her maybe wants. 379 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 3: To knowledge it, right, you know, that she's pregnant, then. 380 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: That is creating a situation where the girl might not 381 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: want to share, you know, Like I think there's like 382 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: a lot of I think stigma and shame are just. 383 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: Very very strong. 384 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I also think the body in the mind 385 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: are really incredible. 386 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 3: That you know, because I have seen Gail. 387 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: Pregnant, given she was pregnant with twins, so she was 388 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: really big at the time, but I've seen a picture 389 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: of pregnant. There was no mistaking Gaile pregnant, like she 390 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: was huge, you know. And I think and so even 391 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: would she have been more pregnant looking if if she 392 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: wasn't in denial of her pregnancy, because I think that's 393 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: really fascinating here that so many of these girls aren't 394 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: really showing, and so that's kind of a loop happening 395 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: where they're where it's just kind of compounding the idea 396 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: that they're not pregnant because they're not having the normal 397 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: pregnancy signs. 398 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: And the baby doesn't move if there's pregnancy denial. 399 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: A lot of times the one doctor was. 400 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: Saying, right, the baby doesn't kick, and I it is, 401 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: it's really it's it's crazy, and I am infuriated. I 402 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: felt infuriated that they wouldn't let the experts in at 403 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: the trial and and why why not? Do you know? 404 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 2: Why not? Why not? 405 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 3: Well, it's because in Ohio. They have this rule against it. 406 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 3: It's like diminished capacity. 407 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: Oh right, I think you talked about that a little bit, 408 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 2: or the lawyers did. 409 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So diminish capacity is basically like, for example, if 410 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: you were like driving a car drunk and you hit 411 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: and killed somebody, you can't blame the fact that you 412 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: are drinking and weren't didn't have the wherewithal the drive 413 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: a car. You can't blame the drinking on that because 414 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: you made a choice to drink, and so the judges 415 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: have the discretion. 416 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: Different, right, Drinking is a different thing than having a 417 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: psychological condition and illness. 418 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 3: That was their argument. 419 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: I mean, they felt that it was under diminished capacity 420 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: that they could keep it out. But they were trying to, 421 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: as Stephen says, they were trying to explain the behavior, 422 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: like how could do you explain Gail's behavior. There's this 423 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: thing called pregnancy denial, and that wasn't allowed into the 424 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: courtroom because they felt like it was an excuse when 425 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: it was really just a way to explain. And also too, 426 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: I don't think you choose to have pregnancy denial, I mean. 427 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: And how do you refuse experts, doctors? I don't know, 428 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: you know, if you spoke about or it was spoken of. 429 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: It was a primarily male jury in a primarily conservative district, 430 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: and I don't know how religious the district is, but 431 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: I don't know how that influences some of these decisions. 432 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: To me, I was dumbfounded that they said no to 433 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: allowing experts to talk about her state of mind. That 434 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: was one of the many things, you know. And then 435 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: I don't know if you do this on purpose, but 436 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: primarily there were men talking about how could a mother 437 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: do this? Not that it's it's okay, you know, it's 438 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: okay for a man to wonder those things, and it's 439 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 2: okay for a man to have feelings about these things. 440 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: It's just that I thought it was maybe even on purpose, 441 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 2: that there was almost primarily a male jury making these 442 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 2: decisions and and you know, questioning her motives. And I'm 443 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: not saying that women can't do terrible things, but just 444 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 2: them talking about, you know, how could you have something 445 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: in your body or some grows somebody And I mean, 446 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: I guess you'll never know, but you know, so, but 447 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: I thought that was interesting. There were so there was 448 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: so many different times, you know that I was prompted 449 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 2: to see, like this big picture that was really scary 450 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: in terms of our society and judgment and a lack 451 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: of compassion and understanding. And I again, I'm sure there 452 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: are people that would or do completely disagree with me 453 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: when the film comes out, will disagree. But and I 454 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: don't know if I always would have felt like this, 455 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: but the story that you told and letting us get 456 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 2: to know her in this way, for me, there was 457 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 2: no question but that I felt sick for her. I 458 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 2: am sick that she's in jail. I am hearing even 459 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: when her daughter answers the phone and tells her that 460 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: she's pregnant, you know, and she, like you said, she 461 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 2: it was always everybody before her. There was no complaining. 462 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,239 Speaker 2: There was just don't be in the courtroom, even if 463 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 2: it would have helped me. I don't know daughter should ever, 464 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 2: you know, see her mama spoken about in that way, 465 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: and then the sun and the way that they loved her, 466 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 2: It just none of it adds up. With the part 467 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: for me that really doesn't add up is I feel 468 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 2: like the way that she was just screwed in court 469 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 2: that what was the most frustrating part for you. I'm 470 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 2: sorry because I'm giving you all my feelings. I really 471 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: want to interview you, but I hope you know I'm 472 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 2: very passionate about this, which is a compliment to you. 473 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: Oh no, thank you, And I mean I appreciate your 474 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: thoughts on it because I mean that's what I wanted 475 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: the film to do, is the great conversation, and I 476 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: do feel like people need to talk it. 477 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 3: Out after her. 478 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean for me, it's really not having 479 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: this psychology in the room, because. 480 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I mean. 481 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 3: Jury can rule. 482 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: However they want, obviously, but for them not to have 483 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: all the information and not being such a crucial part 484 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: of the story. 485 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: Here, right, that was the injustice for me. 486 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it just it didn't feel fair. 487 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: And you see kind of how a judge would And 488 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: again the judge in Emily's case is a woman judge, 489 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: and she hears the psychology and she says it perfectly, 490 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: like we want things to. 491 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 3: Be clear and better or whatever, you know, But that's 492 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 3: not how life is. 493 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: It's not black and white. When they said she was 494 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: not guilty of I want to say it was aggravated murder? 495 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 2: Was that the first what changed? So how did the 496 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 2: sentence change from if she was not guilty for aggravated 497 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 2: as opposed to guilty for murder. Would she had gotten 498 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 2: how much worse could it have been? 499 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, So aggravated is basically anywhere from twenty to life 500 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: without and there's a range you can get twenty twenty five. 501 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: I think it's thirty and then life without. That's what 502 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: Emily was charged with. Actually, Emily, just to tell you 503 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: something crazy and this is yes, So Emily in her 504 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: trial she was charged with aggravated and murder. She wasn't 505 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: charged with. She had and they offered her to deal, 506 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: and the deal was take the murder charge. So Emily 507 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: was never offered a manslaughter deal, which is what Gail 508 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: was offered manslaughter, so that was no time to eleven years. 509 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: But Emily was offered murder, and if she didn't take murder, 510 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: then both murder and manslaughter or aggravated murder would be 511 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: on the table. But aggravated murder is probably due to 512 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: the age of the victim being under the age of twelve, 513 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: you'd automatically get an aggravated murder charge for that. 514 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: Okay, but it could be much worse. 515 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, she got fifteen to life, but it could have 516 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: been twenty all the way through to life without Yeah, 517 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: and the prosecute on Emily's case told me that they 518 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: thought that the jury would have given her the death 519 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: penalty if it was on the table. That's how much 520 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: they thought they hated her. 521 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you feel? And I don't know you 522 00:27:59,080 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: were in the courtroom. 523 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 3: Yeah. 524 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 2: So they showed the baby, and there was the one 525 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: they did allow the forensic I guessed, what is it called, 526 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 2: the one that said that there were the lungs were 527 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: actually it knew that the baby was breathing. And then 528 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: there was the other forensic expert who said the baby 529 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 2: was probably not breathing right. But then they showed and 530 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 2: then they showed the pictures of the baby, and I 531 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 2: you know, in that moment, of course, you're picturing a 532 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: baby and you're picturing the reality of it and how 533 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 2: awful it is, and the whole story for me, it 534 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: was so Gaiale based right, and I knew that it 535 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: had happened in my sympathy for her. And then you didn't, 536 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 2: thank you very much, show those pictures. But you know, 537 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: then it occurs to you to me that there was 538 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: a baby, and I don't know, I wasn't there. I 539 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 2: really am choosing to believe that the baby was still 540 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: born even with the two experts, and would that change 541 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 2: my feeling about it if the baby wasn't born like 542 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: was born alive and born breathing. I don't know, you know, 543 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: I was so taken with her and so taken with 544 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: this feeling of just injustice and heartbreak. So and then 545 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: then there's the baby, and I guess I have to 546 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 2: allow for that rate, I have to allow for these 547 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: jurors to feel that to see these pictures, I don't know. 548 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: Well, they actually they had wanted to bring like twenty 549 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: five images in and they got them down to five 550 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: and that was their biggest thing that they had for 551 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: the prosecution had was those pictures because there it's very 552 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: emotional to see. 553 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: That was so weird. The judge also talking about his grandkids. 554 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 2: That was I don't know why I thought that was 555 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: so what we're you're the tell me what word I 556 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: should use for that? 557 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 3: What I mean, it's a little biased. 558 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, just to go back to the pictures really quickly, 559 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: Like I think it's emotional because again, an animal had 560 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: found the the it was definitely dead when it was 561 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: left in the woods, found the dead baby and drive 562 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: it to the roads. So it was missing an arm 563 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: and a leg, and so you have people look at 564 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: that and that's like really heart wrenching, right. I do 565 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: think based on watching the whole trial through, we will 566 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: never know if this baby was born alive or dead 567 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: because the evidence really just didn't show it. I think 568 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: the pathologists on the on the prosecution side, you know, 569 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: they said that there was air in the avol line. 570 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: But as the pathologist on the defense side said, you 571 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: lift this baby up by its arms, Eric can go 572 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: in the lungs, decomposition, Eric can go in the lungs. 573 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's just gases. Like so there's really no 574 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: way to tell. And like I think, I think the 575 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: important thing I mean for me at least in in 576 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: in being there is that it's like what did Gail 577 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: perceive at the time, And I do believe that Gail 578 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: perceived this baby is dead. 579 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: You know, some babies need from the film, yeah, some. 580 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: Babies need to be like you know, with a doctor 581 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: like you know kind of I don't know what they 582 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: do the babies when I don't. Yeah, and the baby 583 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: came is most likely purple. Like I think at that age, 584 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: if I saw a purple baby come out of me 585 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: in a toilet and it wasn't making a sound. 586 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 3: I probably would think the baby was. 587 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: Dead, Jessica. I think also like you do, the baby 588 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: only because I have these feelings for Gail, and I 589 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 2: just can't I just don't see it. I can't imagine 590 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: her with a baby cry. I just and maybe the 591 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 2: jurors did feel that that was a believable scenario. I 592 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: don't know why were there, Why was it so predominantly male? 593 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 2: I mean, right, the attorneys, they get to pick jurors. 594 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 2: What happened there? 595 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: So I talked to the prosecution about this, and they 596 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: told me that in their research and just kind of 597 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: looking at other cases around, there was a girl in 598 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: Dayta and Ohio. 599 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 3: She's the cheer later. 600 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: In the film, right, a little blonde, right her. 601 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: But the prosecution on that case thought that they should 602 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: go for a female jury because they felt like women 603 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: would not buy any of this, that she didn't know 604 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: she was pregnant or like anything. So they packed the 605 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: jury full of women, and the women came out hand 606 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: in hand and acquitted her. And so they were like, 607 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: oh gosh, like, no, women are not our friends, so 608 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: we need men. 609 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 3: So they packed the jury full of men. 610 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: But why didn't the defense get a chance to deny that. 611 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if the defense realized the power of 612 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: having a full jury of women. You know are also 613 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: you know, no, you know, no, I don't mean to 614 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: have been anybody here, but I do think like they 615 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: are men, and maybe they thought the same thing. I 616 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: have no idea, I don't neither really. 617 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: It just it was a powerful statement that the jury 618 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: was mainly men. Have you been are you allowed to be? 619 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 2: Have you been in touch with her? With Gail? 620 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we've been in touch. I also showed her 621 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: the film before were Yeah. I just wanted to make 622 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: sure that she felt okay about everything, and she she 623 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: cried through the whole thing. She felt that represented her story. 624 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: She felt a film misrepresented her story. 625 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 3: Oh no, represented her story. 626 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it did good, okay, And also that. 627 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 3: She hoped it would help other women. 628 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, I showed her family the attorney's mark everybody 629 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: before we locked picture, just to make sure everybody like 630 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: saw it first. And yeah, they've been to the family's 631 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: been to our premiere at south By Southwest, and we're 632 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: going to be We're doing our theatrical run now that 633 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: we're going to be playing New York, La, San Francisco 634 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: and a bunch of other places across the country starting 635 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: in July, and we'll be doing an impact campaign as 636 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: well with the film, so we'll be taking it to universities. Good. 637 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so glad. 638 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 639 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,479 Speaker 2: Those are my favorite crime documentaries in terms of like 640 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: when there's something to really learn. And I feel like 641 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: this was for me personally. There was a lot to 642 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: learn here. And you know, I didn't so much about 643 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: this that I would have never understood without the film, 644 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 2: So you know, well done there. I think it's going 645 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: to make a lot of people think and a lot 646 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: of people talk, and maybe things will will change. And 647 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: again I'm like, I worry. I'm worried about Gail. Is 648 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 2: she okay? Because she is she okay? She's in prison 649 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: for fifteen at the minimum. 650 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I think she really struggles with what her 651 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: purpose is because ironically, as based on the crime or whatever, 652 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean, she always wanted to be a mother and 653 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 1: so her whole purpose was around that, and so I 654 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: think not having her kids and her family, she really. 655 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 3: Struggles with that. 656 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: I share a lot of like the impact work we 657 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: are doing like we shared the film with NYU Law 658 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: Students American. 659 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 2: Classic like cool. 660 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 3: It's going to be opening up. 661 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: The Marseille Society Conference in South Africa in September tonight, 662 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: it's playing in La at the Postpartum Support inter Wow. 663 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: So I told her all of. 664 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: This and she she has a lot of hope with that, 665 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: Like she's like just really as glad her story is 666 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: helping educate people because she really doesn't want this to 667 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: happen to any other girls. 668 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 2: I don't either can help with her pearol hearing. 669 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, potentially, I mean, we just want more people to 670 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: know about her story, especially in Ohio. So maybe there's 671 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: more conversations around this. 672 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, yeah, I have to wrap. But Jessica, I'm 673 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 2: so grateful that you came on. I'm grateful for the film. 674 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: I think it's beautiful. Congratulations to you. Thank you so 675 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 2: much for joining us, Thank you 676 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 3: So much for having me.