Speaker 1: I'm wes Kosova today on the Big Take. Bloomberg's Israel
Speaker 1: Bureau chief Ethan Brunner is here again from Tel Aviv
Speaker 1: to tell us about the latest developments in the Israel
Speaker 1: Hamas war. Even a lot has happened since we spoke
Speaker 1: last week, and right now it seems that a lot
Speaker 1: of the focus is on this effort to try to
Speaker 1: free as many of the hostages Hamas took as possible.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what's happening with that?
Speaker 2: Right now?
Speaker 3: There are numerous and very delicate negotiations underway all through
Speaker 3: the country of Katar, which plays host to a bunch
Speaker 3: of Hamas leaders, political leaders, and also it's just been
Speaker 3: spending a lot of money in Gaza through Hamas in
Speaker 3: recent years with Israeli acceptance.
Speaker 2: So the attempt here is focused.
Speaker 3: Largely on though we don't know how many, but some
Speaker 3: dozens of foreigners and dual nationals American, French, British, Chinese Filipinos.
Speaker 2: Many of them are dual nationals.
Speaker 3: That they're Israelis who come from somewhere, but a bunch
Speaker 3: of them were visiting or working here in the case
Speaker 3: of the Thie workers, for example, so there was a
Speaker 3: release last Friday of.
Speaker 2: A mother and her daughter, Americans from Chicago.
Speaker 3: The mother is that an American Israeli who had been
Speaker 3: living in the States.
Speaker 1: And on Monday, Hamas released two more hostages. They're both
Speaker 1: elderly women who lived on a kibbutz that Hamas attacked
Speaker 1: on October seventh.
Speaker 4: Breaking news in the Middle East where two hostages taken
Speaker 4: by Hamas were just released. It comes three days after
Speaker 4: Hamas released the first hostages, two Americans and a deal
Speaker 4: broker by Cutters government.
Speaker 3: I think that this attempt is quite significant because I
Speaker 3: think that it is causing the Israelis to slow down
Speaker 3: in what they're doing in terms of their ground invasion,
Speaker 3: and it is a reason for foreign countries to really
Speaker 3: have an influence here, particular the United States, and I
Speaker 3: think broadly the US is trying to get Israel to
Speaker 3: think calmly about the situation that it is in, and
Speaker 3: it is a very difficult task. The fury, the humiliation,
Speaker 3: the anger, the sense of betrayal that pervades Israel since
Speaker 3: October seventh attack.
Speaker 2: It's overwhelming, and the military.
Speaker 3: Which was not where it needed to be to save
Speaker 3: its citizens, wants to get revenge. They don't like to
Speaker 3: talk about the word revenge. It feels ugly, but it's
Speaker 3: inevitable that that's partly what's at stake here. When President
Speaker 3: Biden came here last week, he came with a very
Speaker 3: reassuring manner, a hug literally a hug to people who
Speaker 3: were relatives of victims, but also kind of a broad
Speaker 3: hug for the whole country, which meant a lot to
Speaker 3: the people here.
Speaker 5: Not earlier this morning, I returned from Israel. They tell
Speaker 5: me I'm the first American president to travel there during
Speaker 5: the war. I met with the Prime Minister and members
Speaker 5: of his cabinet, and most movingly, I met with Israelis
Speaker 5: who had personally live through horrific horror. Are the attacked
Speaker 5: by a mass on the seventh of October. As I
Speaker 5: told the families of Americans being held captive by a maas,
Speaker 5: we're pursuing every avenue to bring their loved ones home.
Speaker 5: As president, there is no higher priority for me than
Speaker 5: the safety of American soel hostage.
Speaker 3: It'll also allowed him and Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln
Speaker 3: to have an impact on the conversations that are going
Speaker 3: on the highest level. So all of that is partly
Speaker 3: has to do with these hostages, and partly has to
Speaker 3: do with the American concern that this conflict could spread
Speaker 3: from Gaza to the north and Lebanon.
Speaker 1: Even do we know how many hostages there are alive
Speaker 1: now who were taken by Hamas into Gaza.
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly.
Speaker 3: The Israelis speak of a number in the two hundred
Speaker 3: and twenties now, but I've been told reliably that that
Speaker 3: includes several dozen who are dead. That is, their people
Speaker 3: who are missing, and they believe that Hamas took their
Speaker 3: bodies into Gaza as part of a negotiation process. We
Speaker 3: know that many of them are hurt. We know that
Speaker 3: some are ill, some are elderly, There are some very
Speaker 3: small children. There is, in fact, a small group of
Speaker 3: prominent Israelis who have made the children their sole focus.
Speaker 3: They have gotten eighty six Nobel Laureates to sign a petition.
Speaker 3: They're going to the UN Security Council. They're trying to
Speaker 3: say that we're talking about children who are three and
Speaker 3: five and seven, who will be deeply and permanently scarred
Speaker 3: unless they are taken home where they're being held in Gaza.
Speaker 3: We have been told and assume that they're distributed around
Speaker 3: Gaza Strip in order to prevent easy finding of them
Speaker 3: by Israel or anybody else.
Speaker 2: That's what we know.
Speaker 3: We don't really know the nature of the negotiation. We
Speaker 3: don't know what Humas is being off an exchange. We
Speaker 3: do know that the Americans wanted to link hostage freedom
Speaker 3: with aid coming in through the Rafah crossing. The Israelis
Speaker 3: were not in favor of that. That wasn't quite done
Speaker 3: that way. But clearly they'll be offered some kind of
Speaker 3: form of a ceasefire or something to do with less
Speaker 3: aggression against them.
Speaker 2: It one has to assume.
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that these negotiations have caused Israel to
Speaker 1: pause for a moment, and the US and the European
Speaker 1: Union are also pressing Israel to delay the ground invasion.
Speaker 6: The big news here this morning is a lot of
Speaker 6: talk in the Israeli media's on the television and all
Speaker 6: the leading newspapers that the ground offensive may be delayed
Speaker 6: for an indetermined period of time.
Speaker 1: Both for the hostages but also to allow more humanitarian
Speaker 1: aid into Gaza. Is that message being received, so.
Speaker 2: I think it is being received.
Speaker 3: I would say that we expected around invasion to have
Speaker 3: begun already some days ago. In fact, I was being
Speaker 3: told reliably on Friday that it was due to start
Speaker 3: that night, and then when it became clear that there
Speaker 3: was about to be a hostage release, I was told
Speaker 3: again reliably that it's been called off for that to happen.
Speaker 3: I think at the time they assumed they'd be more
Speaker 3: than two people released. So yes, we're quite sure that
Speaker 3: there has been a rethinking of the ground operation.
Speaker 2: There are numerous causes for this.
Speaker 3: First of all, it's going to be an extremely dangerous
Speaker 3: thing for the Israeli troops to do. Second of all,
Speaker 3: if in fact huge numbers of people are killed, it
Speaker 3: will increase the chances of.
Speaker 2: His Balla entering in the fray in the North.
Speaker 3: Third of all, just the idea of those many deaths
Speaker 3: is bound to cause Israel problems with its relations with
Speaker 3: other Arab countries that it has been cultivating so closely,
Speaker 3: And the United States is telling Israel, you know, you
Speaker 3: also need to ask yourself what happens the day after.
Speaker 3: There's another thing going on, which is that the Israelis
Speaker 3: feel they need to send a message to his Ballah
Speaker 3: and like minded militias that are around backed, which is
Speaker 3: to say we can play the same kind of game
Speaker 3: you can. We live in this region, we're not afraid
Speaker 3: to act by its rules. At the same time, Israel
Speaker 3: wants to send a message to the US, the UK,
Speaker 3: Germany and France and Canada that says we're not like them,
Speaker 3: We're like you.
Speaker 2: We're humane, we care about people's lives.
Speaker 3: That's why we're trying to move people out. So this
Speaker 3: dual message, which was in deep contradiction and which is
Speaker 3: more important, we don't know.
Speaker 1: And at the same time that the ground in vision
Speaker 1: has been paused or halted for the moment the bombing
Speaker 1: has intensified and also spread.
Speaker 3: This it has, so this is partly a desire to
Speaker 3: maybe delay and limit what will be a ground operation.
Speaker 3: If they can take care of business from the air
Speaker 3: and long range artillery, then they will have less.
Speaker 2: Of a need to go in on the ground.
Speaker 3: And I think that what they began to see in
Speaker 3: recent days is some sense of Hamas' weakness. By the way,
Speaker 3: Hamas is still shooting missiles at Israel and rockets, so
Speaker 3: whatever damage they've done, they haven't eliminated it.
Speaker 2: And it's quite remarkable. Even here in Tel Aviv.
Speaker 3: Two or three times a day a missile is incoming
Speaker 3: from Gaza. So no matter all the things that they've
Speaker 3: done to sort of limit the ability of Hamas to operate,
Speaker 3: it hasn't eliminated it at all.
Speaker 1: Is there any concern that the intensive bombing that Israel
Speaker 1: is conducting in Gaza could potentially harm the hostages?
Speaker 2: Of course there is.
Speaker 3: Hamas has repeatedly asserted that X number of hostages is
Speaker 3: already dead from the bombings by Israel. Most people are
Speaker 3: skeptical of what they've said they have. In some cases,
Speaker 3: given the names and ID numbers of those they say
Speaker 3: are dead, some suspect that they probably brought them in dead.
Speaker 3: And this is a propaganda effort on their parts, because
Speaker 3: actually these are very important cards for them.
Speaker 2: To play, and they're likely to want to keep them safe.
Speaker 3: But I mean, it's perfectly possible, absolutely that some have
Speaker 3: died from these bombings. And I will say that from
Speaker 3: the beginning, Israel has sent a message, which is that
Speaker 3: nothing is going to stop us from doing what we
Speaker 3: have to do. Now, every day that goes by from
Speaker 3: the trauma of October seventh, the slightly less steely everything
Speaker 3: feels here right. The idea that well, we have to
Speaker 3: think about this in broader terms rather than just nothing
Speaker 3: else is going to get in our way. We are
Speaker 3: going to destroy Hamas. That is beginning to shift. People
Speaker 3: do not want to die here. They do also want
Speaker 3: to think about what the future is. There is a
Speaker 3: debate underway now about how to handle this situation. At
Speaker 3: the same time, people are deeply, deeply troubled by what
Speaker 3: it means to have such a savage force, which the
Speaker 3: force was on the seventh of October on its board
Speaker 3: hundreds of meters from them, apparently training to do it again.
Speaker 2: So it is. It is a dilemma, there's no doubt
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: And the bombing is not only in Gaza but against
Speaker 1: his Bellah, and there has even been bombing in Syria.
Speaker 3: Yes, Israel is worried about its northern front, both his
Speaker 3: Bella and Palestinian groups that are in southern Lebanon and
Speaker 3: in Syria.
Speaker 2: That's right. There have been exchanges.
Speaker 3: On the border and a little bit more deeply into
Speaker 3: both countries in recent days. Here again there's a debate
Speaker 3: within the Israeli security and military community. There are those
Speaker 3: who have said, you know what, this is our opportunity.
Speaker 3: We can't live under this kind of threat. Let's take
Speaker 3: care of the North and the South at the same time.
Speaker 3: And the United States and others inside here have urged
Speaker 3: Israel not to do that.
Speaker 2: It's going to be a little hard to get it
Speaker 2: all done at once.
Speaker 3: Focus on Gaza and what you do in the North,
Speaker 3: just a tit for tat.
Speaker 2: Don't go aggressively against Hamallah.
Speaker 3: Just make clear to them that you're not going to
Speaker 3: put up with any kind of attacks, and you'll attack
Speaker 3: back in proportion. And that has been what's happened and
Speaker 3: what you don't know exactly what the Americans have promised Israel,
Speaker 3: but it seems that they have said to them, if
Speaker 3: you act like that, you can count on us in
Speaker 3: the North if something truly terrible happens.
Speaker 2: And the United States says we.
Speaker 3: Know has sent to carry your fleets into the eastern
Speaker 3: Mediterranean and has increased also patriot missiles and troops.
Speaker 1: After the break, the continuing after shocks of the Gaza
Speaker 1: hospital bombing, even another source of great tension over the
Speaker 1: past week has been trying to figure out who is
Speaker 1: responsible for the bombing of the hospital in Gaza.
Speaker 3: We're talking about the Alakhali Baptist Hospital in Gaza City,
Speaker 3: and when an explosion occurred, mostly in the parking lot
Speaker 3: of that where a lot of people were sheltering, the
Speaker 3: Hamas Health Ministry issued a statement saying that hundreds were
Speaker 3: dead end that it was from an Israeli attack, and
Speaker 3: then the Israelis at the time said, look, we're unaware
Speaker 3: that it's us, but we'll look into it.
Speaker 2: And then within maybe.
Speaker 3: Twelve hours or so, they issued a bunch of evidence
Speaker 3: that it was not they, that they for example, showed
Speaker 3: how it came from behind the hospital from a failed
Speaker 3: Islamic jihad shooting toward Israel, and they even released an
Speaker 3: audio recording between two Hamas operatives saying it.
Speaker 2: Looks like it was us, it doesn't look like it
Speaker 2: was them.
Speaker 3: And now I think the Pentagon and other Western governments
Speaker 3: have looked at the details end of all come to
Speaker 3: the conclusion that it was indeed not Israel that did it.
Speaker 3: But of course, you know, the assertion that it was
Speaker 3: Israel canceled the meeting that President Biden was due to
Speaker 3: have with Arab leaders in Amman, Jordan after he left Israel,
Speaker 3: and it created enormous anger on the streets of the
Speaker 3: Muslim world, so it's a terrible problem.
Speaker 1: Part of the reason that the US and the EU
Speaker 1: are trying to forestall this ground invasion of Gaza is
Speaker 1: to get humanitarian aid into the Gaza strip. What is
Speaker 1: the situation now on the ground there for civilians who
Speaker 1: are living there, and what is the latest in trying
Speaker 1: to get that aid to them.
Speaker 2: Some dozens of trucks have gone in.
Speaker 7: This is a live picture of the Rougher crossing where
Speaker 7: the first aid trucks finally making their way from the
Speaker 7: Egyptian side of the crossing into Gaza, where they will
Speaker 7: be inspected.
Speaker 2: It is a very difficult situation for the people on
Speaker 2: the ground.
Speaker 3: I have to tell you that journalists are not able
Speaker 3: to get in from the Israeli side or the Egyptian side,
Speaker 3: so we don't have anyone on the ground. Our correspondent
Speaker 3: is in phone conversation with people there who he himself
Speaker 3: is from Gaza, but.
Speaker 2: Not in it right now.
Speaker 3: I don't think any of us would want to find
Speaker 3: ourselves in that situation. It's an extremely threatening and upsetting one.
Speaker 3: They've been asked and told by Israel to leave large
Speaker 3: sections of the northern part of the Gaza strip and
Speaker 3: go south, and many of them are forty to a
Speaker 3: house now and that sort of thing. So it's very difficult.
Speaker 3: I think people are deeply uncomfortable and afraid. People are
Speaker 3: being killed in large numbers. It's five thousand people and
Speaker 3: according to the Hamas health authorities, most of them are women,
Speaker 3: children's civilians.
Speaker 1: Do you think that more convoys of aid will be
Speaker 1: allowed in to come through the Egypt border crossing?
Speaker 2: It seems so. It seems that more will come in.
Speaker 3: But this is a very up and down, very unclear situation,
Speaker 3: and sometimes we look at the camera looking at the
Speaker 3: Rafah crossing gate to see whether anything's coming in or out,
Speaker 3: and sometimes yes and sometimes no.
Speaker 1: How does this advance from here given all of these
Speaker 1: various tensions and difficulties trying to figure out the situation.
Speaker 3: I think that's a good question, Wes. I don't think
Speaker 3: it's obvious what it means. They remain firm that their
Speaker 3: goal is the dismantling of Hamas's military and governing infrastructure,
Speaker 3: So you know how you define that, obviously is pretty
Speaker 3: wide open. What they want to do is create a
Speaker 3: situation that Hamas can no longer be in charge in Gaza.
Speaker 3: They want someone else in charge. They want to demilitarize
Speaker 3: the Gaza strip, and it's a heck of a job
Speaker 3: to do. You know, the place is quite well armed
Speaker 3: to its teeth, and there are all these warrens and
Speaker 3: alleys and tunnels and so forth. And I think we
Speaker 3: all know from Vietnam, from South Lebanon, from Iraq, from Afghanistan,
Speaker 3: that urban combat does not tend to end up as
Speaker 3: the victors being those who've arrived from the outside. It's
Speaker 3: the people who live there who outlast. And the Israelis
Speaker 3: have experienced at numerous times. And so I think the
Speaker 3: idea is that the Americans are saying to them, listen,
Speaker 3: we hear you, we feel your pain.
Speaker 2: But think hard about this.
Speaker 3: And this is a process that's underway hour by hour here. Still,
Speaker 3: it is a very fluid situation.
Speaker 1: With when we talk about this idea of the war
Speaker 1: escalating and pulling in other countries, what exactly does that
Speaker 1: look like, what nations might come into this conflict. Is
Speaker 1: there an appetite among some of these other nations to
Speaker 1: actually become part of this conflict?
Speaker 3: If Lebanon got involved in a war with Israel, it
Speaker 3: will have been dragged in bych Isbellah. Egypt does not
Speaker 3: want to fight against Israel. But in Sinai you do
Speaker 3: have isis actors, you do have various carecharacters that are
Speaker 3: anti Israel.
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the things Israel wants to
Speaker 2: do is sort of move some.
Speaker 3: Of the Gausans into Sinai while they do their thing
Speaker 3: in Gaza, and the egypt Is saying, no way, We're
Speaker 3: not doing that.
Speaker 2: We're not letting you do that to us.
Speaker 3: So I don't think there's any appetite there. And I
Speaker 3: actually don't think at the moment that Iran wants to
Speaker 3: go to war with Israel either. So that's why it's
Speaker 3: so complicated. It's just Israel against these militias, and it's
Speaker 3: a tough battle.
Speaker 1: When we come back, how Joe Biden's Oval Office address
Speaker 1: was received in Israel. Ethn You mentioned earlier the effect
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden's visit to Israel had had. He then
Speaker 1: gave an address to the American people talking about the
Speaker 1: US standing by Israel. What sort of effect has that
Speaker 1: had in Israel, especially because the US Congress, of course,
Speaker 1: because of the politics, has been frozen and isn't able
Speaker 1: to give the aid that Biden wants to give to Israel.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that the Israelis have focused closely on
Speaker 3: the dysfunction in Congress, but they certainly felt incredible gratitude
Speaker 3: for what Biden did and said when he came here,
Speaker 3: and then what he said in the Oval Office, and
Speaker 3: his request for fourteen billion dollars an additional and military
Speaker 3: aid for this country.
Speaker 5: In Israel, we must make sure that they have what
Speaker 5: they need to protect their people today and always. The
Speaker 5: security package I'm sending to Congress and asking Congress to
Speaker 5: do is an unprecedented commitment to Israel's security that will
Speaker 5: sharpen Israel's qualitative military edge, which we've committed to the
Speaker 5: qualitative military edge. We're going to make sure Iron Dome
Speaker 5: continued to guard disguise over Israel. We're going to make
Speaker 5: sure other hostile actors in the region know that Israel
Speaker 5: is stronger than ever and prevent this conflict from spreading.
Speaker 2: People are unbelievably grateful. I mean people.
Speaker 3: I just yesterday got my haircut at the end of
Speaker 3: the day and my barber said Trump wouldn't have said
Speaker 3: those things, Not even Trump would have said those things
Speaker 3: that Biden he is amazing.
Speaker 1: And even the nature of that relationship in the trust
Speaker 1: that Israel has put in the US also lets the
Speaker 1: US tell Israel, hey, you have to slow down. In
Speaker 1: Israelis will listen in a way that perhaps they wouldn't
Speaker 1: listen to others.
Speaker 3: Yes, the Israelis understand that those carriers and the Mediterranean
Speaker 3: and that all of that equipment, all of that aid
Speaker 3: that the United States is bringing and saying we're going
Speaker 3: to help you make.
Speaker 2: Sure that his blood doesn't enter this war. This is
Speaker 2: not a joke. This is serious stuff.
Speaker 3: And that means that when the Americans make requests, they
Speaker 3: these guys are much more willing to yield to those requests.
Speaker 3: And I have to say that Biden and Blincoln and
Speaker 3: Lloyd Austin apparently have been not ordering anybody around totally in.
Speaker 2: A kind of big brother mode.
Speaker 3: You know, we feel your pain, we know how awful
Speaker 3: this is, we know how terrible Hummas and his Bellah
Speaker 3: have been towards you. We're here to help, and now
Speaker 3: that we're here to help, you might want to do
Speaker 3: X or Y. That's how they're handling it. And the
Speaker 3: Israelis are very appreciative.
Speaker 1: And yet the ground invasion you think is still inevitable.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's the freatest invasion the word invasion that
Speaker 3: might be a problem. There's no doubt in my mind
Speaker 3: that ground troops will enter Gaza, There's no doubt, but
Speaker 3: I don't know in what fashion, at what length, at
Speaker 3: duration numbers. I think all of that is still being
Speaker 3: heavily debated. And that's why as they examine the air
Speaker 3: war and the effect of the air where they try
Speaker 3: to figure out what they might have to do on
Speaker 3: the ground, they can't, based on what I have been told,
Speaker 3: not go in at all. I mean, there are those
Speaker 3: who are saying it, but it seems to me a
Speaker 3: very very small minority, and you know, it could change,
Speaker 3: but I can't believe they won't go in on some level,
Speaker 3: in some fashion relatively soon.
Speaker 1: Is there any conversation about what would happen after Israel
Speaker 1: moved in, say they are able to eliminate Hamas in Gaza,
Speaker 1: what comes next?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's part of the whole problem that
Speaker 3: the United States is trying.
Speaker 2: To persuade the Israelis to think very hard.
Speaker 3: One of the things is that historically Israel has not
Speaker 3: wanted to destroy Hamas, thinking better Haramas than chaos, that's
Speaker 3: been the argument. But now they feel that Hamas is
Speaker 3: such an evil force, and so a stead set in
Speaker 3: favor of killing Israeli is that they have no choice.
Speaker 3: And I think the Americans have accepted that. But remember
Speaker 3: this that Natanyau has not been very helpful to the
Speaker 3: Palestinian authority, the other force in the Palestinian politics which
Speaker 3: holds sway in the West Bank, and so I think
Speaker 3: that the United States sees this as an opportunity to
Speaker 3: nudge the Israelis toward a more supportive stand of the
Speaker 3: more moderate Palestinian forces in the West Bank and maybe
Speaker 3: bring them in to Gaza. I mean, look, it's a
Speaker 3: bit of a pipe dream because it's not a very
Speaker 3: powerful organization, the Palestinian authority right now, but you know,
Speaker 3: somebody has to take charge. Israel doesn't want to be
Speaker 3: there and nobody else wants to be there, so it
Speaker 3: needs to be a Palestinian ruling of some kind.
Speaker 1: Ethan, thanks so much for speaking with me again today.
Speaker 2: Good to talk to you West Take care.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at the Big Take.
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Speaker 1: This episode was produced and engineered by our supervising producer,
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Speaker 1: music was composed by Leo Sidron. I'm West Kasova. We'll
Speaker 1: be back tomorrow with another Big Tape