1
00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,360
Speaker 1: I'm wes Kosova today on the Big Take. Bloomberg's Israel

2
00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,760
Speaker 1: Bureau chief Ethan Brunner is here again from Tel Aviv

3
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,160
Speaker 1: to tell us about the latest developments in the Israel

4
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:19,480
Speaker 1: Hamas war. Even a lot has happened since we spoke

5
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,520
Speaker 1: last week, and right now it seems that a lot

6
00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 1: of the focus is on this effort to try to

7
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,360
Speaker 1: free as many of the hostages Hamas took as possible.

8
00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what's happening with that?

9
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 2: Right now?

10
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 3: There are numerous and very delicate negotiations underway all through

11
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,080
Speaker 3: the country of Katar, which plays host to a bunch

12
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 3: of Hamas leaders, political leaders, and also it's just been

13
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,239
Speaker 3: spending a lot of money in Gaza through Hamas in

14
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 3: recent years with Israeli acceptance.

15
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,560
Speaker 2: So the attempt here is focused.

16
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 3: Largely on though we don't know how many, but some

17
00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 3: dozens of foreigners and dual nationals American, French, British, Chinese Filipinos.

18
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,119
Speaker 2: Many of them are dual nationals.

19
00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 3: That they're Israelis who come from somewhere, but a bunch

20
00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,080
Speaker 3: of them were visiting or working here in the case

21
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,399
Speaker 3: of the Thie workers, for example, so there was a

22
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:14,919
Speaker 3: release last Friday of.

23
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,600
Speaker 2: A mother and her daughter, Americans from Chicago.

24
00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,880
Speaker 3: The mother is that an American Israeli who had been

25
00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 3: living in the States.

26
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 1: And on Monday, Hamas released two more hostages. They're both

27
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,120
Speaker 1: elderly women who lived on a kibbutz that Hamas attacked

28
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,319
Speaker 1: on October seventh.

29
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,959
Speaker 4: Breaking news in the Middle East where two hostages taken

30
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 4: by Hamas were just released. It comes three days after

31
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 4: Hamas released the first hostages, two Americans and a deal

32
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 4: broker by Cutters government.

33
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,960
Speaker 3: I think that this attempt is quite significant because I

34
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 3: think that it is causing the Israelis to slow down

35
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 3: in what they're doing in terms of their ground invasion,

36
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 3: and it is a reason for foreign countries to really

37
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 3: have an influence here, particular the United States, and I

38
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:07,480
Speaker 3: think broadly the US is trying to get Israel to

39
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,080
Speaker 3: think calmly about the situation that it is in, and

40
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,440
Speaker 3: it is a very difficult task. The fury, the humiliation,

41
00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,360
Speaker 3: the anger, the sense of betrayal that pervades Israel since

42
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 3: October seventh attack.

43
00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,399
Speaker 2: It's overwhelming, and the military.

44
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 3: Which was not where it needed to be to save

45
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,600
Speaker 3: its citizens, wants to get revenge. They don't like to

46
00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,440
Speaker 3: talk about the word revenge. It feels ugly, but it's

47
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 3: inevitable that that's partly what's at stake here. When President

48
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,320
Speaker 3: Biden came here last week, he came with a very

49
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,480
Speaker 3: reassuring manner, a hug literally a hug to people who

50
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,240
Speaker 3: were relatives of victims, but also kind of a broad

51
00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:50,960
Speaker 3: hug for the whole country, which meant a lot to

52
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 3: the people here.

53
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 5: Not earlier this morning, I returned from Israel. They tell

54
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,959
Speaker 5: me I'm the first American president to travel there during

55
00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 5: the war. I met with the Prime Minister and members

56
00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,239
Speaker 5: of his cabinet, and most movingly, I met with Israelis

57
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 5: who had personally live through horrific horror. Are the attacked

58
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,720
Speaker 5: by a mass on the seventh of October. As I

59
00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,519
Speaker 5: told the families of Americans being held captive by a maas,

60
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,959
Speaker 5: we're pursuing every avenue to bring their loved ones home.

61
00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,560
Speaker 5: As president, there is no higher priority for me than

62
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,000
Speaker 5: the safety of American soel hostage.

63
00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,400
Speaker 3: It'll also allowed him and Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln

64
00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,679
Speaker 3: to have an impact on the conversations that are going

65
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,560
Speaker 3: on the highest level. So all of that is partly

66
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,920
Speaker 3: has to do with these hostages, and partly has to

67
00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 3: do with the American concern that this conflict could spread

68
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,520
Speaker 3: from Gaza to the north and Lebanon.

69
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 1: Even do we know how many hostages there are alive

70
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 1: now who were taken by Hamas into Gaza.

71
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly.

72
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,040
Speaker 3: The Israelis speak of a number in the two hundred

73
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 3: and twenties now, but I've been told reliably that that

74
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 3: includes several dozen who are dead. That is, their people

75
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 3: who are missing, and they believe that Hamas took their

76
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,760
Speaker 3: bodies into Gaza as part of a negotiation process. We

77
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 3: know that many of them are hurt. We know that

78
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,200
Speaker 3: some are ill, some are elderly, There are some very

79
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 3: small children. There is, in fact, a small group of

80
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,560
Speaker 3: prominent Israelis who have made the children their sole focus.

81
00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,240
Speaker 3: They have gotten eighty six Nobel Laureates to sign a petition.

82
00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,240
Speaker 3: They're going to the UN Security Council. They're trying to

83
00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 3: say that we're talking about children who are three and

84
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 3: five and seven, who will be deeply and permanently scarred

85
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 3: unless they are taken home where they're being held in Gaza.

86
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,239
Speaker 3: We have been told and assume that they're distributed around

87
00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,680
Speaker 3: Gaza Strip in order to prevent easy finding of them

88
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,239
Speaker 3: by Israel or anybody else.

89
00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 2: That's what we know.

90
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,279
Speaker 3: We don't really know the nature of the negotiation. We

91
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 3: don't know what Humas is being off an exchange. We

92
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 3: do know that the Americans wanted to link hostage freedom

93
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,560
Speaker 3: with aid coming in through the Rafah crossing. The Israelis

94
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 3: were not in favor of that. That wasn't quite done

95
00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,039
Speaker 3: that way. But clearly they'll be offered some kind of

96
00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,400
Speaker 3: form of a ceasefire or something to do with less

97
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 3: aggression against them.

98
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 2: It one has to assume.

99
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,040
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that these negotiations have caused Israel to

100
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,440
Speaker 1: pause for a moment, and the US and the European

101
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,720
Speaker 1: Union are also pressing Israel to delay the ground invasion.

102
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 6: The big news here this morning is a lot of

103
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,720
Speaker 6: talk in the Israeli media's on the television and all

104
00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,160
Speaker 6: the leading newspapers that the ground offensive may be delayed

105
00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,440
Speaker 6: for an indetermined period of time.

106
00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,600
Speaker 1: Both for the hostages but also to allow more humanitarian

107
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,640
Speaker 1: aid into Gaza. Is that message being received, so.

108
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 2: I think it is being received.

109
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,040
Speaker 3: I would say that we expected around invasion to have

110
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,360
Speaker 3: begun already some days ago. In fact, I was being

111
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,200
Speaker 3: told reliably on Friday that it was due to start

112
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,360
Speaker 3: that night, and then when it became clear that there

113
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 3: was about to be a hostage release, I was told

114
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,279
Speaker 3: again reliably that it's been called off for that to happen.

115
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 3: I think at the time they assumed they'd be more

116
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 3: than two people released. So yes, we're quite sure that

117
00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,240
Speaker 3: there has been a rethinking of the ground operation.

118
00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 2: There are numerous causes for this.

119
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 3: First of all, it's going to be an extremely dangerous

120
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,159
Speaker 3: thing for the Israeli troops to do. Second of all,

121
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,080
Speaker 3: if in fact huge numbers of people are killed, it

122
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,720
Speaker 3: will increase the chances of.

123
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 2: His Balla entering in the fray in the North.

124
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 3: Third of all, just the idea of those many deaths

125
00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,919
Speaker 3: is bound to cause Israel problems with its relations with

126
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,480
Speaker 3: other Arab countries that it has been cultivating so closely,

127
00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,279
Speaker 3: And the United States is telling Israel, you know, you

128
00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 3: also need to ask yourself what happens the day after.

129
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,479
Speaker 3: There's another thing going on, which is that the Israelis

130
00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 3: feel they need to send a message to his Ballah

131
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 3: and like minded militias that are around backed, which is

132
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 3: to say we can play the same kind of game

133
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 3: you can. We live in this region, we're not afraid

134
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 3: to act by its rules. At the same time, Israel

135
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 3: wants to send a message to the US, the UK,

136
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,200
Speaker 3: Germany and France and Canada that says we're not like them,

137
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 3: We're like you.

138
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,560
Speaker 2: We're humane, we care about people's lives.

139
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 3: That's why we're trying to move people out. So this

140
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,680
Speaker 3: dual message, which was in deep contradiction and which is

141
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 3: more important, we don't know.

142
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 1: And at the same time that the ground in vision

143
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 1: has been paused or halted for the moment the bombing

144
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,840
Speaker 1: has intensified and also spread.

145
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 3: This it has, so this is partly a desire to

146
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 3: maybe delay and limit what will be a ground operation.

147
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 3: If they can take care of business from the air

148
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 3: and long range artillery, then they will have less.

149
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 2: Of a need to go in on the ground.

150
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,200
Speaker 3: And I think that what they began to see in

151
00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,280
Speaker 3: recent days is some sense of Hamas' weakness. By the way,

152
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,720
Speaker 3: Hamas is still shooting missiles at Israel and rockets, so

153
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,520
Speaker 3: whatever damage they've done, they haven't eliminated it.

154
00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,800
Speaker 2: And it's quite remarkable. Even here in Tel Aviv.

155
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 3: Two or three times a day a missile is incoming

156
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 3: from Gaza. So no matter all the things that they've

157
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 3: done to sort of limit the ability of Hamas to operate,

158
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 3: it hasn't eliminated it at all.

159
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,440
Speaker 1: Is there any concern that the intensive bombing that Israel

160
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 1: is conducting in Gaza could potentially harm the hostages?

161
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:40,840
Speaker 2: Of course there is.

162
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,760
Speaker 3: Hamas has repeatedly asserted that X number of hostages is

163
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,960
Speaker 3: already dead from the bombings by Israel. Most people are

164
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,080
Speaker 3: skeptical of what they've said they have. In some cases,

165
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 3: given the names and ID numbers of those they say

166
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 3: are dead, some suspect that they probably brought them in dead.

167
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,360
Speaker 3: And this is a propaganda effort on their parts, because

168
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,680
Speaker 3: actually these are very important cards for them.

169
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,080
Speaker 2: To play, and they're likely to want to keep them safe.

170
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 3: But I mean, it's perfectly possible, absolutely that some have

171
00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,040
Speaker 3: died from these bombings. And I will say that from

172
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,920
Speaker 3: the beginning, Israel has sent a message, which is that

173
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,960
Speaker 3: nothing is going to stop us from doing what we

174
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,240
Speaker 3: have to do. Now, every day that goes by from

175
00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,760
Speaker 3: the trauma of October seventh, the slightly less steely everything

176
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,200
Speaker 3: feels here right. The idea that well, we have to

177
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,480
Speaker 3: think about this in broader terms rather than just nothing

178
00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 3: else is going to get in our way. We are

179
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 3: going to destroy Hamas. That is beginning to shift. People

180
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 3: do not want to die here. They do also want

181
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 3: to think about what the future is. There is a

182
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,719
Speaker 3: debate underway now about how to handle this situation. At

183
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,840
Speaker 3: the same time, people are deeply, deeply troubled by what

184
00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 3: it means to have such a savage force, which the

185
00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 3: force was on the seventh of October on its board

186
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,920
Speaker 3: hundreds of meters from them, apparently training to do it again.

187
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 2: So it is. It is a dilemma, there's no doubt

188
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:06,839
Speaker 2: about it.

189
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 1: And the bombing is not only in Gaza but against

190
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,160
Speaker 1: his Bellah, and there has even been bombing in Syria.

191
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 3: Yes, Israel is worried about its northern front, both his

192
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,920
Speaker 3: Bella and Palestinian groups that are in southern Lebanon and

193
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:22,840
Speaker 3: in Syria.

194
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 2: That's right. There have been exchanges.

195
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 3: On the border and a little bit more deeply into

196
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,000
Speaker 3: both countries in recent days. Here again there's a debate

197
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,200
Speaker 3: within the Israeli security and military community. There are those

198
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,680
Speaker 3: who have said, you know what, this is our opportunity.

199
00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 3: We can't live under this kind of threat. Let's take

200
00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,680
Speaker 3: care of the North and the South at the same time.

201
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 3: And the United States and others inside here have urged

202
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,199
Speaker 3: Israel not to do that.

203
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,800
Speaker 2: It's going to be a little hard to get it

204
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:52,679
Speaker 2: all done at once.

205
00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,520
Speaker 3: Focus on Gaza and what you do in the North,

206
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,160
Speaker 3: just a tit for tat.

207
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,239
Speaker 2: Don't go aggressively against Hamallah.

208
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,719
Speaker 3: Just make clear to them that you're not going to

209
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,679
Speaker 3: put up with any kind of attacks, and you'll attack

210
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,960
Speaker 3: back in proportion. And that has been what's happened and

211
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,000
Speaker 3: what you don't know exactly what the Americans have promised Israel,

212
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 3: but it seems that they have said to them, if

213
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,840
Speaker 3: you act like that, you can count on us in

214
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,120
Speaker 3: the North if something truly terrible happens.

215
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 2: And the United States says we.

216
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 3: Know has sent to carry your fleets into the eastern

217
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,960
Speaker 3: Mediterranean and has increased also patriot missiles and troops.

218
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,680
Speaker 1: After the break, the continuing after shocks of the Gaza

219
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:54,920
Speaker 1: hospital bombing, even another source of great tension over the

220
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,000
Speaker 1: past week has been trying to figure out who is

221
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,440
Speaker 1: responsible for the bombing of the hospital in Gaza.

222
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 3: We're talking about the Alakhali Baptist Hospital in Gaza City,

223
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,160
Speaker 3: and when an explosion occurred, mostly in the parking lot

224
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,319
Speaker 3: of that where a lot of people were sheltering, the

225
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,240
Speaker 3: Hamas Health Ministry issued a statement saying that hundreds were

226
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,280
Speaker 3: dead end that it was from an Israeli attack, and

227
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,800
Speaker 3: then the Israelis at the time said, look, we're unaware

228
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:23,480
Speaker 3: that it's us, but we'll look into it.

229
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 2: And then within maybe.

230
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,119
Speaker 3: Twelve hours or so, they issued a bunch of evidence

231
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 3: that it was not they, that they for example, showed

232
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,679
Speaker 3: how it came from behind the hospital from a failed

233
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 3: Islamic jihad shooting toward Israel, and they even released an

234
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 3: audio recording between two Hamas operatives saying it.

235
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,679
Speaker 2: Looks like it was us, it doesn't look like it

236
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 2: was them.

237
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,679
Speaker 3: And now I think the Pentagon and other Western governments

238
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,559
Speaker 3: have looked at the details end of all come to

239
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,680
Speaker 3: the conclusion that it was indeed not Israel that did it.

240
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,840
Speaker 3: But of course, you know, the assertion that it was

241
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 3: Israel canceled the meeting that President Biden was due to

242
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,680
Speaker 3: have with Arab leaders in Amman, Jordan after he left Israel,

243
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,839
Speaker 3: and it created enormous anger on the streets of the

244
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,920
Speaker 3: Muslim world, so it's a terrible problem.

245
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 1: Part of the reason that the US and the EU

246
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,200
Speaker 1: are trying to forestall this ground invasion of Gaza is

247
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,320
Speaker 1: to get humanitarian aid into the Gaza strip. What is

248
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 1: the situation now on the ground there for civilians who

249
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,040
Speaker 1: are living there, and what is the latest in trying

250
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 1: to get that aid to them.

251
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 2: Some dozens of trucks have gone in.

252
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,240
Speaker 7: This is a live picture of the Rougher crossing where

253
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 7: the first aid trucks finally making their way from the

254
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 7: Egyptian side of the crossing into Gaza, where they will

255
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 7: be inspected.

256
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,200
Speaker 2: It is a very difficult situation for the people on

257
00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:57,640
Speaker 2: the ground.

258
00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,480
Speaker 3: I have to tell you that journalists are not able

259
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,600
Speaker 3: to get in from the Israeli side or the Egyptian side,

260
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,719
Speaker 3: so we don't have anyone on the ground. Our correspondent

261
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,079
Speaker 3: is in phone conversation with people there who he himself

262
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 3: is from Gaza, but.

263
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 2: Not in it right now.

264
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,440
Speaker 3: I don't think any of us would want to find

265
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,559
Speaker 3: ourselves in that situation. It's an extremely threatening and upsetting one.

266
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 3: They've been asked and told by Israel to leave large

267
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 3: sections of the northern part of the Gaza strip and

268
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,880
Speaker 3: go south, and many of them are forty to a

269
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,840
Speaker 3: house now and that sort of thing. So it's very difficult.

270
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,600
Speaker 3: I think people are deeply uncomfortable and afraid. People are

271
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 3: being killed in large numbers. It's five thousand people and

272
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,960
Speaker 3: according to the Hamas health authorities, most of them are women,

273
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:43,359
Speaker 3: children's civilians.

274
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,120
Speaker 1: Do you think that more convoys of aid will be

275
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 1: allowed in to come through the Egypt border crossing?

276
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 2: It seems so. It seems that more will come in.

277
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 3: But this is a very up and down, very unclear situation,

278
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,640
Speaker 3: and sometimes we look at the camera looking at the

279
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,840
Speaker 3: Rafah crossing gate to see whether anything's coming in or out,

280
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,600
Speaker 3: and sometimes yes and sometimes no.

281
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 1: How does this advance from here given all of these

282
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 1: various tensions and difficulties trying to figure out the situation.

283
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 3: I think that's a good question, Wes. I don't think

284
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,560
Speaker 3: it's obvious what it means. They remain firm that their

285
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:27,880
Speaker 3: goal is the dismantling of Hamas's military and governing infrastructure,

286
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,000
Speaker 3: So you know how you define that, obviously is pretty

287
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 3: wide open. What they want to do is create a

288
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 3: situation that Hamas can no longer be in charge in Gaza.

289
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 3: They want someone else in charge. They want to demilitarize

290
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,840
Speaker 3: the Gaza strip, and it's a heck of a job

291
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 3: to do. You know, the place is quite well armed

292
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,560
Speaker 3: to its teeth, and there are all these warrens and

293
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 3: alleys and tunnels and so forth. And I think we

294
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 3: all know from Vietnam, from South Lebanon, from Iraq, from Afghanistan,

295
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,320
Speaker 3: that urban combat does not tend to end up as

296
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 3: the victors being those who've arrived from the outside. It's

297
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,560
Speaker 3: the people who live there who outlast. And the Israelis

298
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 3: have experienced at numerous times. And so I think the

299
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 3: idea is that the Americans are saying to them, listen,

300
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 3: we hear you, we feel your pain.

301
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 2: But think hard about this.

302
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 3: And this is a process that's underway hour by hour here. Still,

303
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,560
Speaker 3: it is a very fluid situation.

304
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,520
Speaker 1: With when we talk about this idea of the war

305
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,680
Speaker 1: escalating and pulling in other countries, what exactly does that

306
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 1: look like, what nations might come into this conflict. Is

307
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 1: there an appetite among some of these other nations to

308
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 1: actually become part of this conflict?

309
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,280
Speaker 3: If Lebanon got involved in a war with Israel, it

310
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,720
Speaker 3: will have been dragged in bych Isbellah. Egypt does not

311
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 3: want to fight against Israel. But in Sinai you do

312
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,360
Speaker 3: have isis actors, you do have various carecharacters that are

313
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:02,240
Speaker 3: anti Israel.

314
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the things Israel wants to

315
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,960
Speaker 2: do is sort of move some.

316
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 3: Of the Gausans into Sinai while they do their thing

317
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 3: in Gaza, and the egypt Is saying, no way, We're

318
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 3: not doing that.

319
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,080
Speaker 2: We're not letting you do that to us.

320
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,320
Speaker 3: So I don't think there's any appetite there. And I

321
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,320
Speaker 3: actually don't think at the moment that Iran wants to

322
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 3: go to war with Israel either. So that's why it's

323
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 3: so complicated. It's just Israel against these militias, and it's

324
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,040
Speaker 3: a tough battle.

325
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 1: When we come back, how Joe Biden's Oval Office address

326
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:54,080
Speaker 1: was received in Israel. Ethn You mentioned earlier the effect

327
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,200
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden's visit to Israel had had. He then

328
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 1: gave an address to the American people talking about the

329
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 1: US standing by Israel. What sort of effect has that

330
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 1: had in Israel, especially because the US Congress, of course,

331
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 1: because of the politics, has been frozen and isn't able

332
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 1: to give the aid that Biden wants to give to Israel.

333
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,160
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that the Israelis have focused closely on

334
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 3: the dysfunction in Congress, but they certainly felt incredible gratitude

335
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 3: for what Biden did and said when he came here,

336
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 3: and then what he said in the Oval Office, and

337
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,679
Speaker 3: his request for fourteen billion dollars an additional and military

338
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 3: aid for this country.

339
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 5: In Israel, we must make sure that they have what

340
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 5: they need to protect their people today and always. The

341
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,159
Speaker 5: security package I'm sending to Congress and asking Congress to

342
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 5: do is an unprecedented commitment to Israel's security that will

343
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 5: sharpen Israel's qualitative military edge, which we've committed to the

344
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 5: qualitative military edge. We're going to make sure Iron Dome

345
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 5: continued to guard disguise over Israel. We're going to make

346
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 5: sure other hostile actors in the region know that Israel

347
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 5: is stronger than ever and prevent this conflict from spreading.

348
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 2: People are unbelievably grateful. I mean people.

349
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,119
Speaker 3: I just yesterday got my haircut at the end of

350
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 3: the day and my barber said Trump wouldn't have said

351
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 3: those things, Not even Trump would have said those things

352
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,120
Speaker 3: that Biden he is amazing.

353
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,679
Speaker 1: And even the nature of that relationship in the trust

354
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 1: that Israel has put in the US also lets the

355
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 1: US tell Israel, hey, you have to slow down. In

356
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,119
Speaker 1: Israelis will listen in a way that perhaps they wouldn't

357
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 1: listen to others.

358
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,640
Speaker 3: Yes, the Israelis understand that those carriers and the Mediterranean

359
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,160
Speaker 3: and that all of that equipment, all of that aid

360
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 3: that the United States is bringing and saying we're going

361
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 3: to help you make.

362
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 2: Sure that his blood doesn't enter this war. This is

363
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 2: not a joke. This is serious stuff.

364
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 3: And that means that when the Americans make requests, they

365
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 3: these guys are much more willing to yield to those requests.

366
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 3: And I have to say that Biden and Blincoln and

367
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 3: Lloyd Austin apparently have been not ordering anybody around totally in.

368
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 2: A kind of big brother mode.

369
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 3: You know, we feel your pain, we know how awful

370
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 3: this is, we know how terrible Hummas and his Bellah

371
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 3: have been towards you. We're here to help, and now

372
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 3: that we're here to help, you might want to do

373
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 3: X or Y. That's how they're handling it. And the

374
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 3: Israelis are very appreciative.

375
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 1: And yet the ground invasion you think is still inevitable.

376
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 3: I mean, it's the freatest invasion the word invasion that

377
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 3: might be a problem. There's no doubt in my mind

378
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 3: that ground troops will enter Gaza, There's no doubt, but

379
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 3: I don't know in what fashion, at what length, at

380
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 3: duration numbers. I think all of that is still being

381
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,640
Speaker 3: heavily debated. And that's why as they examine the air

382
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 3: war and the effect of the air where they try

383
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 3: to figure out what they might have to do on

384
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 3: the ground, they can't, based on what I have been told,

385
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 3: not go in at all. I mean, there are those

386
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 3: who are saying it, but it seems to me a

387
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 3: very very small minority, and you know, it could change,

388
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 3: but I can't believe they won't go in on some level,

389
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 3: in some fashion relatively soon.

390
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: Is there any conversation about what would happen after Israel

391
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: moved in, say they are able to eliminate Hamas in Gaza,

392
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 1: what comes next?

393
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 2: Right?

394
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's part of the whole problem that

395
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 3: the United States is trying.

396
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: To persuade the Israelis to think very hard.

397
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 3: One of the things is that historically Israel has not

398
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 3: wanted to destroy Hamas, thinking better Haramas than chaos, that's

399
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 3: been the argument. But now they feel that Hamas is

400
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 3: such an evil force, and so a stead set in

401
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 3: favor of killing Israeli is that they have no choice.

402
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 3: And I think the Americans have accepted that. But remember

403
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 3: this that Natanyau has not been very helpful to the

404
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 3: Palestinian authority, the other force in the Palestinian politics which

405
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 3: holds sway in the West Bank, and so I think

406
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 3: that the United States sees this as an opportunity to

407
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 3: nudge the Israelis toward a more supportive stand of the

408
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 3: more moderate Palestinian forces in the West Bank and maybe

409
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 3: bring them in to Gaza. I mean, look, it's a

410
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: bit of a pipe dream because it's not a very

411
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 3: powerful organization, the Palestinian authority right now, but you know,

412
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 3: somebody has to take charge. Israel doesn't want to be

413
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 3: there and nobody else wants to be there, so it

414
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 3: needs to be a Palestinian ruling of some kind.

415
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: Ethan, thanks so much for speaking with me again today.

416
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: Good to talk to you West Take care.

417
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at the Big Take.

418
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more

419
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

420
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 1: wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you.

421
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: Email us, question comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net.

422
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: This episode was produced and engineered by our supervising producer,

423
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: Vicki Virgolina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our original

424
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 1: music was composed by Leo Sidron. I'm West Kasova. We'll

425
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: be back tomorrow with another Big Tape