1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Folks, if you were a fan of weird literature, you 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: have probably heard of machiavelli Is famous book The Prince, 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: which was either satire or a straight faced guy to 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: political manipulation to get the stuff you want. 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: Wasn't there also that posthumous TUPAC record that was called Machiavelli. 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: Well, posthumous that that goes to stuff they don't want 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: you to know. 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 3: An island. Oh, yes, you're right, You're absolutely right. He's 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 3: also into Assassin's screen games too, and Brotherhood. He's very important, 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 3: and especially in Brotherhood. He was a wily kind of thinker, 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 3: wasn't he. I mean he was, I guess a very 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 3: practical philosopher of sorts, you know, almost like a sun 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 3: Zu type figure, you know. I mean he really had 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 3: a viewpoint that he was able to funnel into some 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 3: pretty actionable behavior. 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: Is that people could consider kind of ruthless and a 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: bit cruel and you know, but ultimately self serving. Playing 18 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 2: the game, the climbing of the ladder, all of that stuff, 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 2: little finger type shit. 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, chaos as a ladder. And it turns out, as 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: we'll see in this weekend's classic episode, that Machiavelli himself, 22 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: even though his name now functions as a term of 23 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: manipulative behavior, Machiavelli himself was not the first proponent of 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: cold hearted stake craft. The actual, like the actual origin 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: of this which we discovered in this episode, goes back 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: to ancient India, and a book with unclear authors seems 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: to have preceded the ideas of Machiavelli by almost two 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: thousand years. 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 3: Jeez leis that's a lot of years. Well, let's hear 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 3: all about it. 31 00:01:53,760 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. In the world 32 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: of business, self improvement and management courses, there are several 33 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: books that you will continually encounter, things like you know, 34 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: The Art of War by Sun Zoo or perhaps Justice 35 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: Famously the Prince by Nicolo Machiavelli. My name is. 36 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: Ben, My name is Nolan Ben. Your Machiavellian accent was 37 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: on point. 38 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Noel, thank you so much. When 39 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: you and I have done Italian accents in the past, 40 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: we have endeavored not to go too far into a 41 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: cartoon land. So it's it's been a day by day 42 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: thing for both of us. 43 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 3: Or maybe I was just trying to employ flattery to 44 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: get you to do what I want? 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: How machiavellian? Indeed, And how could we mention Machiavelli and 46 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: the Prince without, of course mentioning our own mentor in 47 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: the lawful evil alignment super producer Casey Pegram. 48 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: But he seems so nice. Listen that, such a delightful sound. 49 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: How can he be such a monster? Well? What is 50 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 3: what is a monster? Really? That depends on perspective? What 51 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: is a person? 52 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: Right? 53 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 3: What is a question? 54 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: We could go we could go down this rabbit hole, 55 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: but instead let's talk about Machiavelli just a little bit. This, 56 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: this author of The Prince, has become in many ways 57 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: synonymous with unethical dealing, right, wherein all actions are rated 58 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: as good if they benefit the person committing those actions. 59 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: Double dealing, treachery, schemery, deceit indeed. 60 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: So you'll find things like this The Prince is published 61 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: in fifteen thirty two, and you'll find quotes in there 62 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: such as a prince never lacks good reasons to break 63 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: his promises? 64 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 3: What a doche? 65 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if we should be 66 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: so quick to judge. I'm on the fence about it, 67 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: because you can see the utility of the book. I 68 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: had to read it in grad school. 69 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 3: Actually, I'm sure you studied international affairs, and this is 70 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: something that would certainly come into play with things like diplomacy. 71 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 3: I mean, a little healthy subterfuge can go a long way, 72 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 3: or a little bit of a healthy flattery could maybe 73 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 3: get someone to do exactly what you want without having 74 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 3: to strong arm them, make it seem like it was 75 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 3: their idea, to sort of incept them, as it were. 76 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: And you and I, in the horse of preparing for 77 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: this episode, discovered that maybe the Prince is not as 78 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: original as we once thought it was. 79 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 3: Ah, yes, you've arrived the topic of today's episode. Let's 80 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 3: see if I can get this pronunciation right. It's a 81 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 3: little book, a little known book, and I don't know, 82 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: I mean generally little known, certainly known to some called 83 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 3: the Arthur Shastra. Well done, nol, Did I get it? 84 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: I think you did. I think you did. The Arthur Shastra. 85 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: What's this book about? 86 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 3: Well, this book was actually very recently discovered in only 87 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 3: think the early nineteen hundreds. It had been transcribed from 88 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 3: an original copy onto I want to say a palm 89 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: leaf for a series of palm leaves, isn't that right, 90 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,559 Speaker 3: Ben In this book, The Artha Shastra was most likely 91 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 3: written by a group of authors, but is typically credited 92 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 3: to a man named Katilia, who served as an advisor 93 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 3: to Chandragupta, who was the ruler of the Iron Age 94 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 3: civilization of the Marian Empire, which was a vast section 95 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 3: of northern India, and it was actually one of the 96 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: earliest ruling societies in the continent of India. 97 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: Yes, and Cotulia, we believe now was the pen name 98 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: for a minister named Chanakya. But as as No points out, 99 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: this probably wasn't just one person writing. The text itself 100 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: is divided into fifteen books that function as a primer 101 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: for kings. 102 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 3: Right. 103 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: It covers a military subject's political, economic subjects. The name 104 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: Arthur Shastra, the concept translates to like means of life 105 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: or worldly success. Pro tip if you run it through 106 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: your Google Translate, it will tell you the translation is economics. 107 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 3: Also seen it written as science of Politics or the 108 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: science of political economy. Those are also pretty commonly accepted translations. 109 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: But the reason that this gets lumped in with Machiavelli, 110 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 3: who is much more well known comparatively, is that it 111 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: also dealt with a lot of that kind of shady 112 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 3: subterfugei manipulative techniques that Machiavelli dealt with in writings like 113 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 3: The Prince, And in addition to things like how to 114 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 3: set up a ring of spies and manage your secret agents, 115 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 3: it gives suggestions like a king should fake divine miracles 116 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 3: in order to impart a sense of almost godlike power 117 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: to his subjects. 118 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: Not just credibility. But they get into the brass tax 119 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: of it, and they say, you should go to state 120 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: temples fake a miracle so you'll increase your revenue from pilgrimages, 121 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: so people will get taxed to go see that part 122 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: where you know you made a statue cry milk or something. 123 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: And this is fascinating because the book itself predates the 124 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: prints by about one eight hundred years or so. And 125 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: I believe that the copy we found in the early 126 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, we being human civilization, not just Casey and 127 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: Nolan myself, this was a copy of a copy right 128 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: it had already existed in some other form. So we 129 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: know that this book was valuable enough to be transcribed. 130 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: And it's a really unsentimental read. You can find free 131 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: translations of it online. You can download the PDF and 132 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: check it out firsthand. But in this in the Arthur Shastra, 133 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: Catilia openly writes about stuff like assassinations, when you should 134 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: kill your family members, and as Noel said, how to 135 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: manage secret agents. Also, when is it useful to violate 136 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: a treaty? 137 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, anytime it suits you, right right. 138 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: This this draws comparisons, of course to the Prince, because 139 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: it is seen as intensely a moral right, lacking morals, 140 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: and it makes me think of you're familiar with D 141 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: and D right, dungeons and dragons. So there's this concept 142 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: of alignments that go either from good to evil or 143 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: lawful to chaotic, and this counts as lawful evil, which also, 144 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, I think is the alignment of the quistor. 145 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure. Who also is in real life, 146 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 3: actual facts a dungeon master? Easy, I could see it. 147 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: I mean, he has a dungeon, is the master of it. 148 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: That's where he dwells. 149 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: Oh man, he might be, and he might be in 150 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: the studio now, and we don't know. He is such 151 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: a creature, but he will he will eventually return. If 152 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: this is your first time tuning in and you're thinking 153 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: Ben Nole, super producer, Casey, who is this squister you 154 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: talk about? Just stick a stick around in one episode 155 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: or another. 156 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: It'll be time. Gosh. 157 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: I feel like maybe we're I know, we're sort of 158 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: whistling in a graveyard here, but maybe by talking about it, 159 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 1: he won't show up this episode. 160 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 3: Anyway. Back to Cortilia, there are actually quite a few 161 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: pretty serious differences between his writings and Machavelly. Right. 162 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that you and I were chopping 163 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,599 Speaker 1: it up about, and you brought up a point that 164 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: I feel it feels pretty observant and I would agree with, 165 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: which is that you see this as more of a 166 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, would you say, a slightly better moral 167 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: character to this work. 168 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: It does feel that way. It certainly doesn't seem to 169 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 3: lean quite as heavily on that deceitful manipulation that Machavelly 170 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: was so fond of. See. 171 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: I think that's a valid point. It's strange because people 172 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: still seem somewhat divided on this. You know, there are 173 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: some people who will prefer one over the other, or 174 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: feel like one is maybe less unethical. I feel like 175 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: I can't say more ethical less unethical. It's actually a 176 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: favorite book of Henry Kissinger. In his work World Order, 177 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: he refers to this ancient Indian treatise as something that 178 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: lays out the requirements of power and the dominant reality 179 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: in politics. 180 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you were mentioning to me off air that 181 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 3: this kind of combines the ideas behind Confucianism and legalism 182 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 3: into sort of this hybrid, very functional philosophy of governing. 183 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 3: It even goes so far as to set up kind 184 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: of a schedule for a ruler that I'm gonna I'm 185 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 3: gonna give you a snippet of. I think this is great. 186 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 3: So in your first ninety minutes of the day at sunrise, 187 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 3: you the ruler should go through the various reports and 188 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 3: documents and you know, write checks and sign papers and 189 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 3: the like, what have you. Then the second ninety minutes 190 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 3: is when you should sort of hold court and allow 191 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: people to present their grievances to you, you know, public audiences, 192 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: let's call it. Then in the third ninety minutes, have 193 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: a little breakfast and you know, maybe take some personal time, 194 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 3: do some sit ups, some pull ups, I know you're 195 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 3: fond of doing that. Then have a little bath, little spa, 196 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 3: you know, read a book whatever. Then we're into the 197 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 3: fourth ninety minutes, when you get to meet with all 198 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 3: of your cabinet and your ministers and the like. Then 199 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 3: the fifth ninety minutes is when you should write your letters. 200 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: And then the last ninety minutes is when you take 201 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: a lunch. Apparently, yes, that's a late lunch. 202 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: It's a late lunch. And also it's a pretty demanding schedule. 203 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: We found that this bakes in about what five hours 204 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: of sleep. 205 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 3: Thinking roughly four and a half over the last than five. Yeah, 206 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: so you really have to burn the candle at both 207 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 3: ends to be a good leader as far as Cotilia 208 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 3: was concerned. 209 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: And this was enormously influential in ancient and classical India, 210 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: but as a result of invasions and conquests, it disappeared 211 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: from widespread usage sometime in the twelfth or thirteenth century. 212 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: So that's you know, that's the long and short of 213 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: how we lost it, which is a shame because you 214 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: have to wonder, you know, in the intervening centuries, how 215 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: knowledge of this text may have changed things, especially you know, 216 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: in the centuries before the publication had spread of the Prince. Again, 217 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: these books are related, but thereby no means exactly the same. 218 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: It's just this is the earlier record espousing this brutal 219 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: realism that most people associate with Machiavelli. 220 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 3: So it's much more an example of parallel thinking than 221 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: it is somebody ripping off somebody else. 222 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but how Machiavelli would it have been had 223 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: Michiavelli discovered this book and just not told anyone. 224 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 3: Oh. The most one thing I thought was really interesting 225 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: that that we both can across was this idea of 226 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 3: the mandala theory, which I think is super cool. He 227 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: Catilia lays out the idea of the universe as being 228 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 3: a mandala, a series of concentric circles with your particular 229 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: kingdom or culture in the middle, and then the concentric 230 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 3: circle outside of that is your enemy, and the concentric 231 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 3: circle outside of that is your enemy's enemy and therefore 232 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 3: your friend, and so on. And it's just an interesting 233 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: way of kind of like figuring out alignments, and I 234 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: thought it was a really cool kind of visual device. 235 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 3: He actually has twelve levels of these concentric circles and 236 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 3: gives specific advice on how to deal with them according 237 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 3: to which part of the mandala you find yourself in, right. 238 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, this author, this group of authors, is all about 239 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: list depending on the position of a state, These concentric 240 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: circles of this mandala that Noel just laid out here 241 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: very well put my day. Add the author recommends different 242 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: types of foreign policy. Do you pursue peace? Do you 243 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: pursue war? Do you pursue neutrality? Do you prepare for 244 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: war in a public way that signals it to your enemies? 245 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: Do you seek protection from another state? Or this is 246 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: the this is the weirdest one, and they write so 247 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: openly about this. Do you practice duplicity? Do you pursue 248 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: peace and war at the same time with the same kingdom? 249 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 3: Is that sort of a double agent kind of scenario 250 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 3: or are you sort of playing both sides? Yeah? 251 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: I totally could maybe have some rumors or leaks spread 252 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: that you're preparing for war or something while you offer 253 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: peace treaty. I mean, that's complex state craft. I wonder 254 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: what would happen kind of a false flag scenario. Huh, 255 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: there we go, Yeah, there we go. And we might 256 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: be making this sound like a super villain textbook, But 257 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: what's fascinating about it is it proves a longstanding argument 258 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: or tenant or position in international affairs, which is that 259 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: state actors behave rationally and states do not have friends, 260 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: they have interest. So whatever neck of the global woods 261 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: you live in, when what are your politicians is telling 262 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: you that there is a friendship between your country and 263 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: another country, what that really means is they're cooperating because 264 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: their interest aligned, you know what I mean. 265 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. And that's why it kind of becomes 266 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 3: interesting when you start applying this idea of Machiavelianism to 267 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: like an individual rather than a state actor. You know, because, 268 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 3: as it turns out, it's not necessarily the people that 269 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: behave in these ways. Isn't because necessarily they've read the 270 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 3: Prince or they've read the Arthur Shastra. It turns out, 271 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 3: psychologically certain people are just predisposed to being manipulative. And 272 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies, a psychologist by the name of 273 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 3: Richard Christy, along with his research partner Florence Geiss, developed 274 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 3: a test of Machiavelianism called the wait for it, the 275 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: mock four. 276 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: I love that name, and I'm so glad that you 277 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: introduced this test to me as well as to Casey 278 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: and you had the proposal that we all take a 279 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: version of the mock four test, which is available online. 280 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: I did, and we have. 281 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: Not shared our scores with each other. Right, we don't 282 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,959 Speaker 1: know caseys, he doesn't know ours. We're all we're all 283 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of in the dark, right. 284 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 3: And folks, if you want to take this along with us, 285 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: you can go to openpsychometrics dot org slash tests slash 286 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 3: m acch dash i V. Those are caps the mock 287 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 3: four part, so m ah dash Roman numeral four. 288 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: So there there are some interesting things about this test. 289 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, you know, yeah, I want your take. 290 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: Do you think we should just tell each other our 291 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: scores and then talk about the test a little or 292 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: do you think we should talk about the test and 293 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: then tell each other our scores. 294 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 3: Let's talk about the test a little bit. Let's set 295 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 3: up what the you know, Let's just give a little 296 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 3: introduction to the test. Okay, sure. 297 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: So this is a series of what's it around twenty questions? 298 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: Y's right? I think it was twenty on the nose. 299 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: It's twenty questions on the nos You have five possibilities. 300 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,959 Speaker 1: These are all questions that ask whether you agree or 301 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: disagree to a statement, or if you remain neutral, and 302 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: to what degree you disagree or agree. 303 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 3: Right that being disagree, slightly disagree, neutral, slightly agree, or agree. 304 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: And again. This test was developed by Richard Christy and 305 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 3: Florence L. Geiss, and it was released in the seventies. 306 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 3: They began their research on it in the sixties, and 307 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 3: they compiled a list of statements from Machavelli's various writings, 308 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 3: and they put them to you and ask you to 309 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 3: weigh in on whether you which level of agreement or 310 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 3: disagreement you have about that idea. 311 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: And these will have just to give you a taste 312 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: of the statements you'll be reacting to. These are statements 313 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: such as, never tell anyone the real reason you did 314 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: something unless it is useful to do so. That's not 315 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: so shady, and it's also kind of vague. 316 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, or one should take action only when it is 317 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 3: morally right. The best way to handle people is to 318 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: tell them what they want to hear, or things like 319 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 3: it's hard to get ahead without cutting corners here and there. 320 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: And there are also questions that don't come from the 321 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: book to or statements rather sure like you know it 322 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: is possible to be good in all respects. 323 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 3: Would you kill a puppy in cold blood? Would you 324 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 3: kill a puppy and warm milk? Whatever, whatever, whatever your 325 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 3: flavor is. So there are also some gut checks from 326 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: the scientists where they say, are you responding honestly to 327 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: this quiz? And of course it's an honor system. I 328 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 3: didn't get that one. You didn't get that one. 329 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: Oh wait, because there's the option after you complete the 330 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: quiz to answer additional questions. 331 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 3: Ah, I didn't do that. I never never, I never 332 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 3: go the extra mile with these kinds of things. It's 333 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 3: like when I do tech support and they say, would 334 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 3: you fill out a short survey after you complete your 335 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 3: tech support request? I always decline every single time. 336 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: I'll usually decline the survey, But if I've had to 337 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: be on the phone with a living human being, then 338 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: I always love to ask them if they get any 339 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: sort of kudos for customer compliments, and unless they do 340 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: an absolutely terrible job, I'll have them transfer you over 341 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: to their manager. I'll just say this person is great. 342 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: They should get a raise. 343 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 3: They're awesome. Oh, Ben, you are a much better person 344 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 3: than me, And I think that will prove out in 345 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: the scores of the Mack four test. Are you prepared? Oh, 346 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: I'm prepared. Should we say it at the same time? 347 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: No? 348 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 3: Okay you first, I was eighty four percent. Machiavellian, I 349 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 3: thought you'd be pretty high. No offense, I was seventy four. Wow, Ben, 350 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: you must really think I'm a monster. 351 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: Well again, for this whole episode, I'm the one who's 352 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge that's true 353 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: or call anybody a monster. 354 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 3: Now. To be fair, I answered slightly disagree quite a lot. 355 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 3: I felt like it punished me a little unfairly because 356 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: some of these questions were kind of broad and they 357 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 3: didn't really have a hard yes or no answer, like 358 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 3: you know, no, I would not kill a puppy. But also, 359 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 3: I don't really think that everyone is inherently good. Not 360 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 3: only that makes me a bad person, I don't think 361 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: everyone else is kind of a bad person. 362 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: Sure, and there's another Okay, So there are two interesting 363 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: things about this test that we should definitely point out. First, 364 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: your results will probably change as if you take this 365 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: multiple times, and those changes will likely depend upon your mood. 366 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: So if you are feeling super warm and fuzzy and 367 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: something really nice has just happened to you, Then you're 368 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: going to be more likely to say that you think 369 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: all people have some sort of goodness in them. 370 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 3: Right, This is true. This is true. That's a very 371 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: good point. And we have kind of missed the most 372 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: important detail of all to prove whether or not our 373 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 3: super producer Casey is as much of a monster as 374 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 3: I accused him of being at the top of the show. 375 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: That is true, super Producer, Casey, pegram moment has arrived, 376 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: and we are very very curious to hear your results, sir. 377 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 4: All right, Well, I'm actually currently finishing up the last 378 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 4: few questions on that extended questionnaire, so I opted in 379 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 4: as well as you Ben. That might give you a 380 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 4: little bit of an indicator which direction we're heading in here. 381 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 3: Do you feel good about your choice though, Casey, I. 382 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 4: Was in a very mellow mood just now when I 383 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 4: took this, so I'm probably gonna be more more of 384 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 4: the live and let live hippie variety today. 385 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: And those additional questions to paint the scene for everybody. 386 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: Those additional questions are things that will help the researchers 387 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: so they don't necessarily deal with Machiavelli and stuff. They're 388 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: more like demographic questions. Do you know the deafnis to 389 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: these works? 390 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 3: Those don't affect your score though, No, You're just your 391 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: score ends before the extra questions. And I just want 392 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 3: to point out that hippies can be manipulative too, Casey, 393 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: have you heard of the Manson family? 394 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: Well, the extended questions are just to give a helping 395 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: hand to those researchers furthering their work. 396 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 3: I'm getting really worked up about this, you guys, Casey. 397 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 4: I must know your score, all right, I've just found 398 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 4: out seconds ago when I clicked continue. 399 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 3: Can you put could you put a drum roll? In? 400 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 4: Absolutely all right? And my score is fifty sixese. 401 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 3: Man, Casey's the best one. He's the best one. 402 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 4: I'm I'm on the low end of the curve. Actually, 403 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 4: I'm like on the slope going up to the middle. 404 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: I'm on the fat part. Yeah. 405 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: The curve shows us that on aggregate, the largest amount 406 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: is going to be just under seventy. 407 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 3: It looks like, but don't I score points for feeling 408 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 3: guilty that I scored so high? 409 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: But do you really feel guilty or is it part 410 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: of the part of the show. Because I could see 411 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: how Machiavelli or Catilia might argue that it's smart to 412 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: signal that. But I also don't think you should feel bad. 413 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: I don't even know anymore. 414 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: So well, so we pointed out that the test will 415 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: probably change depending on your mood. 416 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 3: Casey said he was an m mellow mood crap test. 417 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: And additionally, if somebody is truly Machiavellian, Casey, then it's 418 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: not hard to engineer a low score on this test. 419 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 4: Casey, Oh, I like that absolutely well. I was kind 420 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 4: of you know, I might have been leaning that way 421 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 4: a little bit. So to be continued, the proof. 422 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: Would be in the putting of your actions, sir. 423 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: I did not mean that laugh to come out so sinister. 424 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 3: See, none of us knows anymore who we are. We're 425 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: all doubting and questioning ourselves because if this blasted internet test. 426 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: Because we are old friends, I will make a confession 427 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: to you, guys. I looked up the average beforehand and 428 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: aimed for that. 429 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: Wow, and I still got a little bit higher, you 430 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 3: son of a son in law. Yes, is so? 431 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: And so indeed, it just goes to show that these 432 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: questions that we're still asking today as individuals, as businesses, 433 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: as organizations, as governments still were relevant thousands and thousands 434 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: of years ago and will likely be just as relevant 435 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of years from now. 436 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it turns out, no surprise, the Arthur Shastra 437 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: has played a big role in the political identity and 438 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: culture of India. It is considered a classic of diplomacy 439 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 3: and there are quite a few universities and some diplomatic 440 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 3: offices that have been named after the likely author Cotilia 441 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 3: to celebrate this work. 442 00:25:54,040 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: Right, this is a profoundly important book and if you 443 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of it before this episode, and 444 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: you happen to enjoy The Prince, we highly recommend you 445 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: check this out again. It's free online. You can get 446 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: a paperback copy pretty easily via Amazon or your favorite 447 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: used bookstore. 448 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 3: And speaking of The Prince, I just wanted to acknowledge 449 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 3: that we are podcasting today the inaugural recording in our 450 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 3: new studios at how Stuff Works HQ. You can picture 451 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 3: kind of a giant shipping container in a room and 452 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 3: Ben and I are inside of that at this lovely 453 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 3: mahogany wood table with our new fancy microphones, and we 454 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 3: have our own little headphone boxes and I'm sorry, I'm 455 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 3: nerding out about it. I kind of set it up 456 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 3: and it's the kind of stuff that excites me. But 457 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 3: it's great. And Casey's out there on the outside through 458 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 3: the window and he's got his own mic and got 459 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 3: a cool Ikia China ball hanging from the ceiling, and 460 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: I don't know. Well, the reason I said the Prince 461 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 3: is because I think we're going to call this studio prince. 462 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: Right, We've arrived, We're moving on up. This is this 463 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: is a big step for us, and we've got to 464 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: send some pictures out. This is the first studio I 465 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: think we can all agree that we would just hang 466 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: out in for funzies. 467 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 3: It's right, it's very very comfy. And you know, we'll 468 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 3: hop on the social media train soon and post some pictures. 469 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 3: I know we have a Facebook group, now, don't we 470 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 3: think the ridiculous historians? Right, Yes, that is correct. 471 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: If you are inclined to Facebook, love things both historical 472 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: and ridiculous, join us. You can see some stuff that 473 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: may or may not have made it to the air, 474 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: get a peek behind the scenes, and also hear from 475 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: some of our peer podcast and. 476 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: It's a fun place to share articles and maybe we 477 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 3: can delve into for future episodes of the show. And 478 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 3: if anyone feels inclined to be a moderator, if you're 479 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 3: into that kind of thing, shoot us an email and 480 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 3: we'll talk about it. 481 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: And while you're on the internet, regardless of your results 482 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: on the mock four quiz, feel free to drop by 483 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: iTunes or your platform choice and leave us a review. 484 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: Let us know how we're doing. 485 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 3: It's okay if it's just to manipulate us into liking you. 486 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 3: As long as it's positive, it will totally work. Absolutely, 487 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 3: I can guarantee that. 488 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: So this will conclude today's episode, but not our show. 489 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: Joined us next time as we cover the killer marketing 490 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: campaign behind Guy fowkx V for Vendetta. I just said 491 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: the name of the movie. I don't know why, I 492 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: just said that. I like the film though, Yeah, the 493 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: comic is better. Yeah, the graphic novel is a fantastic greed. 494 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you know, I don't want 495 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: us to be the people who are always saying the 496 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: book is better than the movie, but in this case, 497 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: I think it's true. 498 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 3: Now what the episode is about, but we will dig 499 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 3: into that fabled British figure and his bungled plot. So 500 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 3: join us in the meantime. 501 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter, you can find us 502 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram, you can find us on our Facebook page, 503 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: or you can write us a good old fashioned email 504 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: with your reaction to the story of the Arthur Shastra. 505 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: Have you read both this work and The Prince? If so, 506 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: how would you rank them? How do you think they 507 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: compare or contrast? Let us know you can write to 508 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: us directly. We're ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com. 509 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 3: So as always, thanks to our slightly less suffering and 510 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 3: totally not evil unless you know he is, super producer 511 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 3: Casey Pegram. Thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. 512 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: Also thanks to our regular contributor Laurie el Dove, the 513 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: author of Ridiculous History Ancient India beat Machiavelli to the 514 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: punch by one eight hundred years, And of course, most importantly, 515 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: thanks to you for checking out the show. 516 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 3: We can't wait to hear about your score. For more 517 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 3: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 518 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.