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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Donald Trump says Milwaukee, where we're

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Speaker 1: having our convention, is a horrible city. Doesn't he hate

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Speaker 1: all cities. We have such a great show for you,

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Speaker 1: the Guardians, Margaret Sullivan stops by, departs the consequences of

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Speaker 1: the newsroom changeover at the Washington Post. Then we'll talk

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Speaker 1: to the Boston Globes Sam Brody about Trump stopping by

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Speaker 1: to talk to Congress. But first we have the host

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Speaker 1: of the Lawrence O'Donnell Show, MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to Fast Politics. I think of you as sane, which

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Speaker 1: in this world is unusual, and also someone who knows history,

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Speaker 1: My friend, Lawrence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all I'm really doing for myself is keeping the

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Speaker 2: clutter out, you know, keeping the noise up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There's just a tremendous amount of noise that, more than ever,

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Speaker 2: that has to be kept out to try to hold

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Speaker 2: on to sanity.

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Speaker 1: That is a Herclinian task. Why is there so much

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Speaker 1: noise right now? I mean, is this typical of an election?

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Speaker 3: Yere?

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Speaker 2: No, it's it's the explosion of data sources. It's just wild.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you think about when elections and campaigns

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Speaker 2: made a certain sense, and when politics made a certain sense,

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Speaker 2: there was a what we thought was an adequate source

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Speaker 2: of material, you know, from several major serious newspapers, New

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Speaker 2: York Times, the Boston Globe, the Washington Post, Seattle Post, Intelligencer,

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Speaker 2: La Times. They were everywhere. Serious newspapers were everywhere. They

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Speaker 2: all had Washington correspondents, most of them had individual White

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Speaker 2: House correspondents and campaign correspondents.

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Speaker 3: And you know.

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Speaker 2: Not surprisingly, most of the people doing that work thought

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Speaker 2: alike in the way that mathematicians think alike. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that they agree on everything, but they do agree

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Speaker 2: that two plus two is four. And we've lost all

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Speaker 2: of that. Not only do we have this explosion of

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Speaker 2: data and information sources, but there are sources who are

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Speaker 2: insisting that two plus two is not four, and they

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Speaker 2: have stronger access to some voters than the traditional sources

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Speaker 2: of information that are much more reliable. And so it's

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Speaker 2: a chaotic information environment that's only only going to get

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Speaker 2: more chaotic. Just when you didn't think it could get

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Speaker 2: more chaotic, somebody like Elon Musk buys Twitter, and Twitter

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Speaker 2: was already one of the explosions of data that had

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Speaker 2: become a source of a lot of unreliable data just

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Speaker 2: because anyone had access to posting data there. And then

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Speaker 2: it gets owned by someone who can't tell fact from fiction,

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Speaker 2: and that makes it all worse, and it's an unmanageable

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Speaker 2: flow of information in which all the traditional forms of

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Speaker 2: talking about campaigns have no meaning. This word message, which

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Speaker 2: I hated when it came into the world of campaigning

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Speaker 2: and started to dominate the world of campaigning in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen nineties. It was such a simple minded, goofy notion

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Speaker 2: that you could reduce a campaign to a so called message.

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Speaker 2: But people were trying to do it, you know, and

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Speaker 2: working on doing that within a relatively manageable environment where

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Speaker 2: if you sent Bill Clinton out one day to campaign

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Speaker 2: about the economy and nothing else, then the campaign coverage

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Speaker 2: that day would be about Bill Clinton's approach to the

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Speaker 2: economy in covering that campaign. That was pretty much the

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Speaker 2: last time you could do that. Now you're living in

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Speaker 2: the twenty first century in a chaotic information environment, and

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Speaker 2: the old ways of thinking about it dominate. The loudest

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Speaker 2: versions of the news, you know, cable news and New

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Speaker 2: York Times, the big news suppliers, and you have people

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Speaker 2: in those venues that are constantly saying Biden has to

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Speaker 2: do this with his message, or Biden has to convince

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Speaker 2: people of X, or Biden has to work harder on

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Speaker 2: this constituency. And what they never say, ever, because they

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Speaker 2: don't know the answer to this is okay, how do

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Speaker 2: you do that? If you're sitting on a cable news show,

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Speaker 2: or you know, you're writing a New York Times up

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Speaker 2: ed piece and you think you're thinking up something that

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Speaker 2: the Biden campaign hasn't thought of, you are completely wrong.

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Speaker 2: You're totally wrong, or that the Trump campaign hasn't thought of,

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Speaker 2: and so they've thought of it all. And when you're

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Speaker 2: looking at it saying why haven't they done X, usually

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Speaker 2: what you're talking about is why haven't they landed a

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Speaker 2: seven forty seven in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean

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Speaker 2: and then just floated it to shore, Meaning you're wondering

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Speaker 2: why they haven't done something that isn't possible to do

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Speaker 2: because you don't live in a campaign environment that allows

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Speaker 2: for the kind of control or even attempts at control

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Speaker 2: that campaign press used to expect.

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Speaker 1: Hmmmm, that's a really good point. What I think is

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Speaker 1: sort of interesting is like the Biden campaign is actually underwater.

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Speaker 1: They are paddling as fast as they can, you know,

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Speaker 1: opening campaign offices. They have a lot of money, but

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Speaker 1: they're also running this very disciplined geno. Malley Dylan, who

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Speaker 1: really ran a very disciplined campaign in twenty twenty, is

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Speaker 1: running this very disciplined, very kind of on the ground campaign.

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Speaker 1: That is necessary. But you know, you're not seeing everything

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Speaker 1: that's happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and none.

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Speaker 2: Of the you know, armchair pundits of cable news or

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Speaker 2: rent are ever talking to you about that. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're never saying, hey, they have to do more and

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Speaker 2: terms of campaign offices in this place or that place,

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Speaker 2: because none of them know anything about that. And there's

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Speaker 2: a reason why none of them know anything about that.

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Speaker 2: None of them have ever run a presidential campaign. You know,

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Speaker 2: when we had to cover a COVID pandemic, we didn't

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Speaker 2: bring on political reporters because they literally don't know anything.

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Speaker 2: We brought on you know, doctors and scientists who could

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Speaker 2: guide us with the best they knew that day or

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Speaker 2: that week, and the minute that that information changed, we

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Speaker 2: brought those doctors and scientists back on to say, here's

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Speaker 2: the latest information based on what we've seen about the

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Speaker 2: way this disease progresses, and what to watch for in

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Speaker 2: all of that. And so those are the only people

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Speaker 2: to ever listen to about campaigns. If you listen to

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Speaker 2: David Pluff talk about a presidential campaign, that's a smart

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Speaker 2: use of your time. He's run one, he's one. He

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Speaker 2: knows what he's doing. You know, if you listen to

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Speaker 2: Stuart Stevens, you know who ran was involved in running

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Speaker 2: a bunch of Republican presidential campaign winning campaigns, Bush losing campaigns.

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Speaker 2: Romney guy knows what he's talking about, and reporters don't.

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Speaker 2: They aren't the vaguest idea what they're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Stuart Stevens is on the last episode of this podcast

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Speaker 1: and was also quite soothing, maybe because of his accent

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Speaker 1: and maybe because of his mentality. But I'm wondering now,

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Speaker 1: right now, this moment in American history, what do you

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Speaker 1: think it's closest to.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I really don't think that it has a parallel.

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Speaker 2: When people look for parallels, what they find are these

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Speaker 2: very small episodes of a kind of madness that obviously

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Speaker 2: had no chance of succeeding and was obviously going to expire,

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Speaker 2: especially when looked at you know, in history, we didn't

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Speaker 2: know that. You know, in nineteen sixty three, you know

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Speaker 2: that the ku Kuck's Plan in its violent assassination form,

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Speaker 2: was going to expire, but it expired before the end

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Speaker 2: of that day. When you look at it now, you go, well,

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Speaker 2: it's inconceivable that in nineteen seventy two there would be

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Speaker 2: guys running around in hoods and burning crosses and assassinating

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Speaker 2: people in their driveways. It's like, yeah, it was inconceivable

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Speaker 2: by nineteen seventy two, and it was happening in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty two. And never, never, never, never did that madness

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Speaker 2: grip forty five percent of Americans. Never, We've never had

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Speaker 2: a dangerous madness in America that had a functional grip

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Speaker 2: lock on forty five percent of Americans. And so those

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Speaker 2: forty five percent of Americans represent a new danger that

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Speaker 2: the country's never had before. That sounds a little bit scary, Well,

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Speaker 2: it's forty five percent. So you know, this is a

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Speaker 2: this is a country you know where the states, at least,

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Speaker 2: although they are carved in a as much a gerrymandered

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Speaker 2: way as congressional districts, they are democracies within those boundaries,

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Speaker 2: and fifty one percent. You know, when things as we know,

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Speaker 2: the presidency is not a product of democracy and is

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Speaker 2: a product of the electoral college, which is in fact

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Speaker 2: deliberately designed not to be a functioning element of democracy,

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Speaker 2: created by founders who weren't in any way supporters of

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Speaker 2: democracy at the level that we are now. They were

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Speaker 2: experimenters with democracy, and in their experiment they said, well,

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Speaker 2: we could try this, but let's make sure there are

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Speaker 2: these wise men, we'll call them electors, and let's make

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Speaker 2: sure they make the real decision. Forty five percent is

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Speaker 2: an unbelievably troublesome number of Americans. And you know, in

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Speaker 2: the United States Senate, if you have forty five percent

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Speaker 2: of the United States Senate, you can stop anything.

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Speaker 1: Right. One of the things you and I have talked

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Speaker 1: about a lot, and it's something that I don't hear

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Speaker 1: anyone else talk about, but you talk about a lot,

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Speaker 1: is this idea that Trump has never ever, ever been

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Speaker 1: interested in growing the electorate. This seems to be continuing.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Look the first thing you always have to say about him,

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Speaker 2: it just has to be said, he is the stupidest

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Speaker 2: person who has ever been nominated for a federal office.

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Speaker 2: He's stupider than Marjorie Taylor Green, He's stupider than all

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Speaker 2: of them. And so that that stupidest candidate ever is

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Speaker 2: the only presidential candidate who has never tried to get

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Speaker 2: more voters during the campaign than he had at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of the campaign. And so even candidates who are

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Speaker 2: running for president for the first time when they get

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Speaker 2: the nomination, and Nixon was the first one to say

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Speaker 2: this publicly and explicitly, but once they get the nomination,

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Speaker 2: you're supposed to start running toward the middle. So you know,

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Speaker 2: for Nixon that meant running to the right to get

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Speaker 2: the nomination in nineteen sixty for the first time, and

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Speaker 2: then trying to run back to the middle in the

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Speaker 2: time that's left to try to pick up the people

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Speaker 2: who might have been alienated by the primary campaigns. And

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Speaker 2: Nixon that in nineteen sixty eight, and he won in

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, you know, by less than one percent

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Speaker 2: of the vote. And then when he runs for reelection,

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Speaker 2: you know, he wins forty nine states. Well, what did

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Speaker 2: he do in the meantime, Well, he did a few

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Speaker 2: things to try to appear more reasonable, and he did

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Speaker 2: appear more reasonable with his opening to China, which was

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Speaker 2: a gigantic event that only a Republican can do at

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Speaker 2: the time, because if a Democrat did it, Richard Nixon

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Speaker 2: would have attacked him and things like that. You know,

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Speaker 2: he did not satisfy any real anti war protesters, but

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Speaker 2: he was in a process of trying to wind down

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Speaker 2: the Vietnam War, and that moved him a little bit more.

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Speaker 2: You know, that picked up some more space in the center.

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Speaker 2: And that's what everyone has always done. And Trump is

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Speaker 2: the only one. He gets the nomination, he doesn't try

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Speaker 2: to get any more voters. He wins the presidency and

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Speaker 2: he doesn't try to get any more voters. You know,

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Speaker 2: every other president at their first inauguration is trying to

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Speaker 2: speak to the voters who didn't vote for him. Trump's

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Speaker 2: first inauguration was, you know, stunning for a bunch of reasons,

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Speaker 2: including that there wasn't a word said to voters who

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Speaker 2: didn't vote for him. That is a losing formula. If

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Speaker 2: you knew only those things, like if you knew only this,

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Speaker 2: that we elected a president who was an extremist in

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, who then didn't spend a single day of

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Speaker 2: his four years trying to appeal to voters who didn't

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Speaker 2: vote for him. And oh, by the way, he got

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Speaker 2: millions fewer votes than the other candidate in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and he spends no time trying to pick up new votes.

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Speaker 2: I would have said to you, that guy's going to lose,

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Speaker 2: and you don't have to tell me anything else. You

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Speaker 2: don't have to tell me the names, you don't have

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Speaker 2: to tell me the parties, you don't tell me anything else.

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Speaker 2: I'll say, well, that president's going to lose reelection just

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Speaker 2: on that math alone.

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Speaker 1: So my question to you is, and I think this

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Speaker 1: is sort of an unknowable question, so it's more of

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you am.

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Speaker 2: That's my specialty. Well, my specialty is trying to weave

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Speaker 2: at least a paragraph around an unknowable so that it

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Speaker 2: sounds like a much more repponsive thing than simply saying

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Let's try it.

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Speaker 2: We'll start that section of the game show right now.

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Speaker 1: So what seems very clear to me is that we

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Speaker 1: don't really know what two hundred million Americans are really thinking,

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Speaker 1: right We don't really know because we just don't have

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Speaker 1: the tools anymore. I feel like the unknown is, to

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Speaker 1: quote someone who is dubious at best, is how are

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Speaker 1: these people getting their news?

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Speaker 2: Well, we know how they're not getting their news because

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Speaker 2: we've always known that, and that is the undecided voter

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Speaker 2: consumes nothing of what we consider news their consumption of

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Speaker 2: coverage of government. Let's say, for example, Wow, the miracle

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Speaker 2: that Joe Biden got the port opened in Baltimore in

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Speaker 2: eleven weeks, got the debris out of the channel, opening

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Speaker 2: up the roots for grain exports from Kansas and Nebraska

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Speaker 2: and Iowa who export their grains through the Port of Baltimore.

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Speaker 2: That is unn and will remain unknown in Kansas, Nebraska,

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Speaker 2: and Iowa to all undecided voters there, and it'll remain

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Speaker 2: unknown to most voters there. But undecided voters relationship to

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Speaker 2: government achievements like that or student loan forgiveness or whatever

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Speaker 2: you want to name in government, or their understanding of

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Speaker 2: campaigns and candidacies, and the difference between you know what

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Speaker 2: a Trump presidency will be and what a Biden presidency

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Speaker 2: will be. That is comparable to my knowledge of the

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Speaker 2: PGA tour. I'm sitting here right now. And if Tiger

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Speaker 2: Woods is still a professional golfer, he's the only name

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Speaker 2: I can name you. I can't name you another one.

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Speaker 2: And if you're telling me somebody other than Tiger Woods

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Speaker 2: wins golf games somewhere, I have no idea, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to know.

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Speaker 2: You know, by the way, it's not like I spend

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Speaker 2: any energy avoiding that information. They're not spending any energy

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Speaker 2: avoiding MSNBC and CNN in their channel package. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're off on those other channels, and they don't even

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Speaker 2: know where we are. And we have known in the

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Speaker 2: twentieth century. We knew way back then. We knew that

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Speaker 2: the undercided voter has never read an op ed piece,

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Speaker 2: not just in the election year, never in their lives.

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Speaker 2: We knew that the undercided voter had never read an

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Speaker 2: editorial ever, you know, which made the game of chasing

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Speaker 2: newspaper editorial endorsements really funny to people in politics because

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Speaker 2: those are for undecided voters, and undecided voters don't read

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Speaker 2: the newspaper. It's like, if you could get the endorsement

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Speaker 2: of Sports Illustrated at the time, you know, a big

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Speaker 2: sports magazine, you know that would help because the people

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Speaker 2: reading that included a lot of undecided voters who never

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Speaker 2: read and consumed any political information. And then so what

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Speaker 2: today The way that's changed is on their Facebook feeds

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Speaker 2: and in their lives without ever seeking it out. Their

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Speaker 2: friends can pop in some political hunk of some kind,

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Speaker 2: you know, that floats without particular welcome into their field

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Speaker 2: of view, and that stuff is all random. It's just

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Speaker 2: totally random. It's not like, well, you know, the guy

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Speaker 2: lives in Kansas City, so at some point he noticed

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Speaker 2: a Kansas City Star headline or something. No, it's not that.

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Speaker 2: It's a totally random thing. And so, you know, the

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Speaker 2: shorter answer to it is they're not getting undecided voters

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Speaker 2: and not getting their information from any of the places

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Speaker 2: we would.

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Speaker 1: Like them to m That's a good point.

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Speaker 2: Which parenthetically is why you need a lot of money

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Speaker 2: to run for president, because the way you pierce that

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Speaker 2: is by the ultra expensive thing called TV advertising, and

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Speaker 2: a TV thirty second ad pops on in the middle

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Speaker 2: of your sitcom and you cannot avoid it. That's the

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Speaker 2: reason campaigns are expensive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Biden just like Josh Shapiro, you know, Josh

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Speaker 1: Shapiro fixed that. I think it was a highway Route

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Speaker 1: ninety five, Route ninety five in in something like some

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Speaker 1: incredibly short amount of time, and I feel like that

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Speaker 1: did affect his popularity. So maybe doing these things does

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Speaker 1: if projected correctly.

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Speaker 2: Sure it does in Pennsylvania where the drivers are who

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Speaker 2: know there's a hole in their highway, like absolutely, And eventually,

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Speaker 2: you know, the people who use that bridge in Baltimore,

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Speaker 2: so they're not going to care very much about the

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Speaker 2: channel because the people don't use the channel, just giant

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Speaker 2: shippers do. Right, But once that bridge gets across there,

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Speaker 2: they'll like that. But the bridge is going to take years,

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Speaker 2: you know, because bridges take years, and you know, no

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Speaker 2: one's going to say thank you for that, you know,

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Speaker 2: for taking years. You're right, that miracle they did on

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Speaker 2: Route ninety five was amazing, and everybody who lived in

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Speaker 2: and around that area and used that road absolutely knows

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Speaker 2: how quickly that happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Josh Shapiro, there we go, Lawrence, Thank you, thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you very much. Spring is here, and

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Speaker 1: I bet you are trying to look fashionable, So why

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Speaker 1: not pick up some fashionable all new fast politics merchandise.

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Speaker 1: We just opened a news store with all new designs

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Speaker 1: just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats, and top bags.

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Speaker 1: To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com. Margaret Sullivan

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Speaker 1: is a columnist for the Guardian and author of Newsroom Confidential.

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Speaker 1: Hello Margaret Sullivan, Welcome to Fast Welcome back to Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: my friend, my mentor.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Mollie.

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Speaker 4: It's great to be here with you again and with

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Speaker 4: your many devoted listeners.

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Speaker 3: I love chatting with you all.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm so happy to have you. So every time

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Speaker 1: there's like media drama, I'm sorry to say that you

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Speaker 1: end up being the number one call for a number

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Speaker 1: of reasons, but largely because you are very, very smart,

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Speaker 1: but also because you have a moral compass.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate that people often tell me that I'm the

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Speaker 4: voice of sanity. You know, it sounds a little dull,

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Speaker 4: but I mean, I'll take it, and it's an king world.

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Speaker 4: So I well, thank you. I hope I have a

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Speaker 4: moral compass. I would like to think so, and I

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Speaker 4: appreciate your saying that.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I want to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: is what does it look like? So we have this

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Speaker 1: A lot of drama at your former employer at the

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Speaker 1: Washington Post. A lot of media stories are just like

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Speaker 1: media staring at themselves and they find it fascinating, but

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have so much real world impact. This really does.

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Speaker 1: Basically what happened is The Washington Post is owned by

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Speaker 1: a benevolent billionaire by the name of Jeff Bezos, who

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Speaker 1: very booky and interested in books and interested in literature,

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Speaker 1: which by the way, makes him like one of the

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Speaker 1: two billionaires who are interested in that which will take it. Barnow.

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Speaker 1: So he had this editor you worked with for a

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Speaker 1: long time, Venera famous, you know, real newspaper man. Then

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Speaker 1: he stepped down right, That was Marty bar They put

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Speaker 1: in a woman very capable from the Associated Press. They

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Speaker 1: put in a publisher who comes from Murdoch World, and

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Speaker 1: now Murdoch World can be okay. Sometimes they create people

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Speaker 1: who are very good newspeople. One of my best friends

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Speaker 1: is an executive at News Corporate. I mean, it is

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Speaker 1: not necessarily there are good serious journalists, maybe some of

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Speaker 1: them still around at Fox, though they're not necessarily allowed

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Speaker 1: on air at night.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think you see a lot of what you're

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Speaker 4: talking about on the news side of the Wall Street

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Speaker 4: Journal yes, it's Murdoch controlled. And while the opinion side

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Speaker 4: is very right wing and often illogic goal and insane,

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Speaker 4: the news side has done some fantastic work. In fact,

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Speaker 4: they broke the famous Theanose story, they Brokemmy Daniel's story,

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Speaker 4: they do work.

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Speaker 1: Right reporting, and they broke the Elon drug story. But

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Speaker 1: can you sort of talk to us about the phone

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Speaker 1: hacking and where he comes from in Murdoch world and

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Speaker 1: how he was actually quite involved in a lot of

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Speaker 1: these controversies.

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Speaker 4: Basically, a number of years ago, maybe a decade or

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Speaker 4: so ago, British tabloids were involved in this horrible you know,

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Speaker 4: breaking into private people's and celebrities phone calls. It was illegal,

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Speaker 4: and they were doing it for stories, and they had

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Speaker 4: many stories about it, and then it was busted wide open.

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Speaker 4: Eventually one of the papers involved, The News of the World,

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Speaker 4: a Murdoch paper, had to go out of business. So,

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Speaker 4: I mean, it had huge repercussions and will Lewis, who's

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Speaker 4: the new publisher of The Washington Post, was brought in

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Speaker 4: to do sort of cleanup. And you know, it's not

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Speaker 4: one hundred percent clear what his role really was. But

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Speaker 4: now the reason that in the news now is that

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Speaker 4: Prince Harry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a whole royal family aspect to this.

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Speaker 4: Harry has sued you know, number of these media properties

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Speaker 4: and the case is making its way through civil court

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Speaker 4: in the UK.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: So will Lewis, who was a named publisher and CEO

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Speaker 4: of the Washington Post, has been named in the suit,

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Speaker 4: not as a defendant but as a sort of interested party,

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Speaker 4: someone they want to talk to and so on. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't look great for him, and he's eager to

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Speaker 4: make sure people don't really know about it. So that's

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Speaker 4: I mean, a really vague but you know, kind of

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Speaker 4: the broad background.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. So what happened

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Speaker 1: here is that the editor of the Post then, Sally Busby,

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Speaker 1: had a piece on the hacking he did not wanted

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Speaker 1: to run, right, or a piece on his involvement in

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Speaker 1: the hacking.

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Speaker 4: Yes, a piece on that you know, mentioned his name

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Speaker 4: as involved in this whole scandal. But you know, I

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Speaker 4: mean very certainly, I'm sure a very factual, fair piece.

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Speaker 4: It didn't say he was responsible for the scandal, but

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Speaker 4: it did, you know, I think, connect his name with

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Speaker 4: this whole thing, which he really did not want.

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Speaker 1: And there really is a sense in which there's really

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Speaker 1: like supposed to be kind of an editorial wall between

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Speaker 1: what editorial publishes and what the desire of the publisher

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Speaker 1: and CEO.

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Speaker 4: Is right, and that's always you know, there are gray

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Speaker 4: areas with it, believe me. And I was the editor

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Speaker 4: of a newspaper for twelve years, my hometown Buffalo, Buffalo News,

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Speaker 4: and I had a publisher who was very interested in

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Speaker 4: the newsroom and got involved, and I had to push

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Speaker 4: him back all the time on projects that he was

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Speaker 4: really interested in.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: I mean there's frequently sort of some tussling between the

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Speaker 4: publisher and the editor that is not all that unusual.

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Speaker 4: But in this case, what will Lewis did, if I

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Speaker 4: can get ahead of the story here is he said

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Speaker 4: to Sally Busby reportedly, I don't think there's any news

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Speaker 4: value to that's story that you want to run. I

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Speaker 4: think it's a it would be a lapse in judgment

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Speaker 4: for you to run it. And she ran it anyway.

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Speaker 4: Then fast forward a little ways, not very far, and

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Speaker 4: she is abruptly defenestrated.

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Speaker 3: You know, she's kicked out.

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Speaker 4: No one really thinks that that was the direct reason

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Speaker 4: for it, but it didn't help. And I think the

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Speaker 4: direct reason for it was that will Lewis wanted to

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Speaker 4: do this very radical reorganization of the paper in the

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Speaker 4: newsroom supposedly, I mean, this is crazy talk, but a

437
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 4: third newsroom, which there's not two newsrooms, so I don't

438
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 4: know how you have a third because there's the newsroom

439
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 4: and there's the opinion side, which is not a newsroom.

440
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 4: Then talking about this third inch anyway, she seemed to

441
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 4: not want to go run the third newsroom very much

442
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 4: understandably into her credit, so she stepped down because she

443
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 4: was being demoted. That's what this is about. And then, interestingly,

444
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 4: and you can speculate on why this now surfaces and

445
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 4: who might have been interested in make its surface now

446
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 4: reading the New York Times about how she tried to

447
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 4: run this story and he got too involved.

448
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: What Margaret's saying, it is really important. When you read

449
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: a story, it's always worth thinking, especially when there are

450
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: sources and it's not clear who the sources, which is

451
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: most stories, It's always worth thinking, why am I getting

452
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: this information now?

453
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 4: Exactly who does this benefit? Where did it come from?

454
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 4: How transparent is the news organization being with me? About

455
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 4: why I'm reading this, especially if it's all sourced anonymously. Now,

456
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 4: that is really bad stuff because it's very hard to

457
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 4: tell whether it's trustworthy.

458
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 3: But it happens all.

459
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 4: The time, and I particularly object if I can get

460
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 4: on my high horse for a moment.

461
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: I love it.

462
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 4: Blind quotes meaning an actual quotation that crashes somebody, that

463
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 4: is put according to a person with knowledge of the matter.

464
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 4: I mean, that should not happen. I don't believe in that.

465
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 4: I think that know, we shouldn't. We shouldn't do that.

466
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: It's a very bad practice. But but Molly is one

467
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 4: hundred percent right that you have to think about why

468
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 4: am I reading this story right now?

469
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 3: And who does it? Where might this have come from?

470
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 3: And why are you know? What are the what are

471
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 3: the sort of underpinnings.

472
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: Of it, and why is it coming out now?

473
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: We mustn't forget the NPR David Falconflick aspect to this.

474
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: Oh yes, Oh I love David Falconflick tell that story.

475
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: No.

476
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 4: So there's a wonderful, very good media reporter, very well

477
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 4: respected in the industry and by the public, David Falconflick.

478
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 4: And it turns out after Sally Buzzby's story comes out

479
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: about how she was told not to run this piece

480
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 4: about will Lewis. Then David Fulkenflick felt it was appropriate

481
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 4: to tell something that he'd known about for a while,

482
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 4: which was that will Lewis had tried to squelch a

483
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 4: similar story in NPR by offering David Falcnflick a deal

484
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 4: and the deepal supposedly was, don't run that story and

485
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 4: I'll give you a big exclusive of some sort later. Well,

486
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 4: that wasn't something that David Folkenflick was going to buy,

487
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: and he went ahead and ran his story. By the way,

488
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 4: the cover up is always worse than the crime. There's

489
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 4: also something called the Strysand effect, which is the more

490
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 4: you try to stop something from coming out, the more

491
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 4: publicity it's going to get. But at any rate, Thanks

492
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 4: Volkli comes out with this thing, and then will Lewis says, oh,

493
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 4: this guy's not a journalist, he's an activist. And he

494
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 4: denied that. He said it was off the record, that

495
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 4: David had broken their off the record arrangement, which is

496
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 4: very difficult to believe in David denies, and I will

497
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 4: believe David Wolknflick. One hundred times over, you know, just

498
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 4: about anybody else. It's another example of will Lewis trying

499
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 4: to squelch stories that make him look bad.

500
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 3: And it really is.

501
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 4: A case of throwing attempting very clumsily to throw his

502
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 4: power around.

503
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: Yes exactly. I just want to add one thing about David,

504
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: which is he is really a very respected, very mild

505
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: mannered person who I think of him like Eric Wemple,

506
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: Like I mean, Eric Wemple is not mild mannered, but

507
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: both of them are like very committed to the story.

508
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, these are factual people for the most part.

509
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean you know. Also, David has done

510
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 4: a lot of work. He wrote a book about the Murdocks.

511
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 4: He's very knowledgeable about this stuff. Just another part of

512
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 4: the Strysand effect here, which is don't try to cover

513
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 4: things up because it only makes it worse. Is that

514
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 4: by will Lewis being so concerned about squelching these stories.

515
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 4: Now I know of three news organizations that are pursuing

516
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 4: his involvement in all of this much more than they

517
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 4: would have been would have now they're like, oh wow,

518
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 4: there must really be something there. And these are big

519
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 4: news organizations with investigative staffs, so you know, who knows

520
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 4: what we're going to learn. And then there's also the

521
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 4: discovery aspect of the of the legal case, so a

522
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,719
Speaker 4: lot could come out there too, and you know, it

523
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 4: may be that he hasn't really done anything wrong, and

524
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 4: that's fun. I mean, there is this whole line of

525
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:12,239
Speaker 4: inquiry about thousands of emails that he is said to

526
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: have deleted in the clean up process. Now I don't

527
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 4: know whether that was okay or not, but it doesn't

528
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 4: really seem that great. I don't know.

529
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: I feel like we're getting pure, unadulterated Margaret today, which

530
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: I love. I'm here for it. Well.

531
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 4: You know, I don't always feel totally knowledgeable, but because

532
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 4: I worked at the Washington Post for six years, I'm

533
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 4: in touch with people there. I was the public editor

534
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 4: of the New York Times, so I have this kind

535
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 4: of inside scrutiny thing. I actually feel like I'm on

536
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 4: reasonably solid ground here. I just wrote about this yesterday,

537
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 4: with all learning fresh for me. A lot of times

538
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 4: I can't actually say anything because I don't know, but

539
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 4: here I feel I know what there is to know.

540
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: And you should also read Margaret's column in the Guardian,

541
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: which is really really, really good. Going to talk about

542
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: this without naming the person's name. As this continued on,

543
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: because the story even has another mushroom. It turned out

544
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: that someone did give will Lewis the piece he wanted. Yes,

545
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: will Lewis went to someone who is a media reporter

546
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: and gave them the fluffy piece that he had wanted

547
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: to run.

548
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: And that's tells us something about.

549
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 4: Again, you know, if we're like pulling back the curtain

550
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: on journalism here, it's like there's a kind of story

551
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,959
Speaker 4: that we call a beat sweetener.

552
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: And that is be eat, not be ee t. So

553
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: it's not about red beats, but it's about we have

554
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: a beat.

555
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 4: We're covering a beat, and if we want to sweeten

556
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 4: our sources and make sure they come to us with

557
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 4: stories or that we can have access to them later,

558
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 4: we will sometimes write up a kind and loving and

559
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 4: flattering piece about them.

560
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: And that's called a beat sweetener.

561
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 4: And I think that, you know, sometimes people do that

562
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 4: in order to keep access. Yes, but it's actually not

563
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 4: the most wonderful kind of journalism there.

564
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: Is, and in a situation like this, it really focks you.

565
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: Well, it's not good for the reader It might be

566
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: good for the reporter, you know, it's not good the

567
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 4: reader or the listener or whatever.

568
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: But it's not good when you have everybody talking about that.

569
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't make you look like a serious person. So

570
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: then the other thing I want to talk to you

571
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: about is what could Jeff Bezos do right now if

572
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: he wanted to just like get rid of this whole situation.

573
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 4: Right Well, a little bit of background here is that

574
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 4: the Post is losing money. It's leadership is down. Of course,

575
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 4: almost everybody's readership is down or listenership is down.

576
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 3: We know that.

577
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 4: And news organizations are mostly, with one or two exceptions,

578
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 4: they're mostly struggling badly. So the Post is not special here.

579
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 4: But he's trying to like get it on the right

580
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 4: track financially. Okay, So what could Bezos who owns the Post,

581
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 4: and by the way, he basically came in ten years

582
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 4: ago and saved the Post and gave it a new one,

583
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 4: so we appreciate that. First and foremost, he could fire

584
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 4: will Lewis and start over. And that would be I

585
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 4: said in my column, that would be the cleanest and

586
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 4: best move, and it would be.

587
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: Not so hard to do. Ultimately, give him a severend.

588
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 4: Well that the problem then is, oh, now I have

589
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 4: to go out and find a publisher who's going to

590
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 4: write the ship.

591
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: You could even also just bring back Marty for a

592
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: little bit.

593
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 4: Well, Marty was an editor, not a publisher, so they

594
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 4: need somebody on the business side. Anyway, I don't see

595
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 4: much sentiment for that right now, so I tried to

596
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 4: think about what could he do while still keeping will

597
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 4: Lewis in place, which is what he seems to want

598
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 4: to do. My sources tell me there's no immediate move

599
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 4: to dump will Lewis, so okay, but we still would

600
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 4: like to deal with this. So I have three suggestions

601
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 4: and they go like this. One will Lewis needs to

602
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 4: pledge to the staff and to the public that he's

603
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: going to respect the line between the business side and

604
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 4: the editorial side and bought out so you make a

605
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 4: declarative statement. Two, the Post should hire an onbudsman or

606
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 4: public editor like they used to have, and someone who

607
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 4: could be an internal watchdog and help assure that, you know,

608
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: bad things don't happen and would be able to be

609
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 4: you know, show accountability and transparency. And third, Bezos himself,

610
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 4: who hardly ever says anything about anything should in this

611
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 4: case make a statement that he's proud to own the Post.

612
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 4: He wants it to be the best paper it can

613
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 4: be in the tradition of Watergate and you know, Snowden

614
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 4: and all that stuff that the Post has done, and

615
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 4: he you know, strongly believes in the independence of the

616
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 4: of the newsroom. All those things would go a long

617
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 4: way while leaving Lewis in place until he possibly stumbles

618
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 4: or discovery or a story makes it completely untenable for

619
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 4: him to be there.

620
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, all good ideas. Can you just give us one

621
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: second on what journalist should focus on right now now

622
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: in this run up to the twenty twenty four election

623
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: and potential autocracy.

624
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 4: Yes, I think they should, you know, and I'll borrow

625
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 4: this because some people are smarter than others from Jay

626
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 4: Rosen at NYU and he's talking about the tendency for

627
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 4: there to be a constantly interest in the horse race,

628
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,479
Speaker 4: coverage of the horse race, who's winning, who's ahead, what's

629
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 4: the latest poll say? And using that horse race metaphor,

630
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 4: he says in the six words that we should focus

631
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 4: on not the odds, but the stakes. In other words,

632
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 4: what are the consequences of this election. What will it

633
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 4: mean to have Trump elected again? What would it mean

634
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 4: to have Biden re elected? We should be focusing our

635
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 4: attention on that, not on the latest poll from Resmussen,

636
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 4: which is probably bad, you know, all of that, and

637
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 4: not focusing endlessly, I feel, and pointlessly on Joe Biden's age,

638
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 4: because we know how old he is, and we know

639
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 4: that Donald Trump is three years younger and is talking

640
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 4: about sharks and so on.

641
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Margaret Sullivan, it's always shark week here. Thank you

642
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: for joining us.

643
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 3: Absolutely, we have to have that every week.

644
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: Sam Brody is a political reporter at The Globe. Sam Brody,

645
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics.

646
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

647
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: That was a very good, fancy introduction. You get this

648
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: fancy introduction because on Thursday, Donald Trump is back in

649
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: Congress the first time since the insurrection, which he actually

650
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: did not go while his people were smearing poop on

651
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: the walls, but he did give a speech nearby before

652
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: they marched over there. So he is back. He is

653
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: sharing his wisdom with the United States House of Representatives.

654
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: And I want to read you a few quotes and

655
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: get your hottest take here if you don't mind. Of course,

656
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: these are from Jake Sherman, who is really punch bowl news.

657
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: They really cover Congress in a way that you do.

658
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: He called the DOJ dirty bastards. He called out Nancy

659
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: Mace and said he was proud to support her and

660
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: said how much he likes her. He made the case

661
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: that he was harder on Russia than Biden was. He

662
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: told the group that he was leading in the presidential

663
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: contest in Virginia. He also said that they sang him

664
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: Happy Birthday. He said, I mean, this is like, if

665
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: the polling weren't so close, this would be hilarious. He

666
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: also told them this got Jake. He gave us a

667
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: lot of question marks here. Nancy Pelosi's daughter is a wacko.

668
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: Her daughter told me, if things were different, Nancy and

669
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: I would be perfect together. There's an age difference, though,

670
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: God discuss.

671
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 5: Here's why this is all sort of funny is that

672
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 5: when Trump was it was like Announce said, he's you know,

673
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 5: get a visit with the House Republicans and visit with

674
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 5: the Center Republican. Separate listener Mike on the radio this

675
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 5: morning talk about the reasons that they were bringing Trump

676
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 5: to Capitol Hill to have this meeting and he's saying, Look,

677
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 5: we're all just, you know, very very excited about the election,

678
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 5: and we're really anxious to hear from the president what

679
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 5: his plans are for governing. We want to discuss ideas

680
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 5: with him about things that we can do together when

681
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 5: House Republicans are in the majority next year and Donald

682
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 5: Trump is back in the White House. And you've heard

683
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 5: a similar thing from Center Republicans. He said, we want

684
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 5: to hear about Donald Trump's plans. And I think ahead

685
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 5: of time you could go, Okay, maybe this isn't Donald

686
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 5: Trump's strength necessarily is talking about what his policy plans are.

687
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 5: But we had congressional leaders having this very like earnest

688
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 5: we are inviting him so that we can hear more

689
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 5: about what he wants to do. And now, within like

690
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 5: two seconds of Donald Trump entering the room in Capitol Hill,

691
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 5: it's just like glaringly obvious sort of the jig is

692
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 5: up here that like, this is not about Donald Trump

693
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 5: coming to discuss what he wants to do. We may

694
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 5: get some interesting like tea leaves that sort of suggestings

695
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 5: that he might do, but you know, this is like

696
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 5: the Donald Trump story hour, and this is kind of

697
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 5: what happens every time he goes and is in front

698
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 5: of a bunch of adoring House Republicans are Senate Republicans.

699
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: It's like he loves, like, oh yeah, like calling out.

700
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 5: Individual people like who want who how to support like

701
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 5: Nancy Mace, Like that's an interesting thing.

702
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 3: He's like, you know, completely going off on the DOJ.

703
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 3: It's about him. It's always about him.

704
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 5: And to the extent that there is plans or kind

705
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 5: of an agenda that is going to be discussed in

706
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 5: a forum like this with Trump, it kind of surrounds him.

707
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 5: I think something I was thinking about leading into this

708
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 5: is like House Republicans and Center Republicans are sort of

709
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 5: bending over backwards to show that they are going to

710
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 5: take some kind of action in response to his conviction

711
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 5: in Manhattan, right.

712
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: And defund the DOJ, which you can't do, but.

713
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 5: Right exactly, or in the Senate that they're going to

714
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 5: grind all business to a halt, or you know, a

715
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 5: dozen or more senators are saying that they're going to

716
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 5: grind everything to a halt because of this conviction. And

717
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 5: so I think we'll hear a lot of actually helpful

718
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 5: specifics in terms of understanding what he wants to do

719
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 5: It's not going to be about tax policy or healthcare.

720
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 5: It's going to be about you know, what might happen

721
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 5: with Republicans in Congress in a second Trump administration as

722
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 5: it relates to witning for the DOJ steps that they

723
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 5: may take, just specifically in response to what they see

724
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 5: as this political persecution.

725
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: I want to read you one more thing that's coming

726
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: out of this meeting, because I feel like this is

727
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 1: really the Trump We all know one out of ten

728
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: that impeached, only one is left, which is also by

729
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: the way, So he's talking about getting rid of the

730
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: impeachment ten. But the great part of this is actually

731
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: he's wrong.

732
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not true. About to say there's actually to

733
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 3: day Nobody tell him, don't tell him.

734
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 5: Actually I saw that one of them is at least

735
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 5: in the room who came in, Dan Neuhouse, who is

736
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 5: a Republican from Washington State who voted to impeach Donald

737
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 5: Trump has endorsed his primary opponent, but Dan Newhouse went

738
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 5: in there, I guess just to because.

739
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 3: Everyone else is doing it. Not sure.

740
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 5: And then another guy, David Valadeo, who is another one

741
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 5: of them from California who's kind of has a Blue district.

742
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 5: He's going to get booted, it's not going to this,

743
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 5: So it captures why he's there. What's really interesting too

744
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 5: to think about is, you know, obviously the January sixth

745
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 5: book end. Here, I find myself thinking about that weird

746
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 5: moment two weeks after January six where Republicans were distancing themselves.

747
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 3: For Donald Trump.

748
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: Right, they almost care?

749
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the idea of Donald Trump coming to the

750
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 5: capital even six months after January sixth would have been considered, you.

751
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: Know, is this something that they want to do. Now

752
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 3: here's his first visit since then.

753
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 5: And I don't even really know when he would have

754
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 5: gone before because as you point out, like you were

755
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 5: not there, he was nearby, he was there. I don't

756
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 5: know when he was up there even before that, It's

757
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 5: been a long time since he was up there. But

758
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 5: now the party is more fully within his control and

759
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 5: graphs than at any point really in years, forget since

760
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 5: January sixth, maybe even before. And I think what we're

761
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 5: seeing is they're pretty symbolic and start confirmation of that.

762
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,959
Speaker 1: Yeah. But the other thing is, like the larger joke

763
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: about this, right, is Trump is going to come and

764
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: talk about policy? What policy? He has policy. Policy is

765
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: tax cuts. His policy is he wants to give people

766
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: tax cuts so they vote for him, and then his

767
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: party wants to end birth control and IVF and the

768
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: Morning after pill and maybe gay marriage. This guy's not

769
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: running on a particular policy. Like twenty sixteen, Trump was

770
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: running on. What He was running on this idea that

771
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: he was going to make America great again. He was

772
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: going to do this populism that somehow Hillary wasn't going

773
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: to do. He doesn't even advertise that anymore.

774
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, you know, he's not talking about Trey for instance,

775
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 5: And that was like an enormous component of his twenty

776
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 5: sixteen run that made him so successful in states like

777
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 5: Michigan and Wisconsin. So look, I mean, yeah, I think

778
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 5: where do Republicans and Trump align, Where do they want

779
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 5: to hear from him from in terms of what they're

780
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 5: going to do. I think tax policy. And look, if

781
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 5: you look back at the first Trump administration, what was

782
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 5: kind of the one area where they managed to do

783
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 5: anything like legislatively, It was tax cuts past his prologue.

784
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 5: I think that's that's the most obvious thing to happen again.

785
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 5: I think you know, all the things you note on

786
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 5: what congressional Republicans want to do as it relates to

787
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 5: you know, reproductive care. Trump is hard to pin down

788
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 5: at best on that stuff. Unclear how he would handle

789
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 5: it if you were president. I do think the one

790
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 5: area where they are very, very aligned and really what

791
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 5: they want this election to be about is immigration and

792
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 5: the board. Beyond tax cuts, certainly there are executive actions

793
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 5: that Trump would take. It's obviously extremely hard to get

794
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 5: any kind of standalone immigration reform build through Congress. But

795
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 5: I think with the appropriations process and like other things,

796
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 5: should Republicans control Congress and Trump is in charge, I

797
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 5: think they will be very aggressive on that and they

798
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 5: want to put that on the front burner. I think

799
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 5: it will be this year's version of you know, the

800
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 5: trade and kind of economic populism that that Trump had.

801
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 5: It's going to be tax cuts, immigration, and then like

802
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 5: revenge sort of for this, you know, alleged weaponization of

803
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 5: the government.

804
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: Jailing journalists and the Biden family. But I don't know

805
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: that people vote on this or people necessarily give a

806
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: shit about issues anymore or policy, because clearly we are

807
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: in this post policy goop. But it is interesting to me,

808
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: like a lot of the populist trade stuff Biden has

809
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: has been doing. And then he also did do border legislation.

810
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: I mean, he tried to pass a border legislation and

811
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: then he did an executive action. But you're here to

812
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: talk about Congress and the Senate. Can we please do

813
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: a few minutes on where we are now? It seems

814
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: like the MAGA senators have decided that they're going to

815
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: try to make Trump happy by holding up appointments. Is

816
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: that where we are now?

817
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 3: Yeah?

818
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 5: I mean so basically after the conviction in New York,

819
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 5: Mike Wee who has emerged as you know, the kind

820
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 5: of most maybe MAGA senator of them all, which is

821
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 5: really interesting for a lot of reasons, given that you know,

822
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 5: he was previously kind of glukewarm on Trump, which represented

823
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 5: where like you know, Utah Mormon Republican conservatives had been

824
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 5: on Trump, and now he's kind of.

825
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: And really still are yeah, mean very much. He may

826
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: have gone along to MAGA, but like, this is a

827
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: state that elected Mitt Romney right after Trump won, and

828
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney is really I think more of what the

829
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: state is still.

830
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, they elected this governor, Spencer Cox,

831
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 5: who's like kind of the classic example, who's like talking

832
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 5: about civility and like does events with democratic governors where

833
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 5: they talk about like have a disagreement with more empathy

834
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 5: and civility. So that's where you Tai is and so

835
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 5: that it's interesting saying that Mike Lee has kind of

836
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 5: really I mean, he has taken the mantle of the

837
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 5: most sort of naga partisan warrior in the Senate. And

838
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 5: so what he did right after the conviction was issued

839
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 5: this letter along with several other senators including marcro Rubio,

840
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 5: which was very interesting because he was sort of an

841
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 5: odd man out of this group until you doctor and

842
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 5: potentially that he is jockeying for a vice presidential consideration.

843
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 5: But they said that, you know, this is unacceptable and

844
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 5: that Republicans are not going to go along, obviously not

845
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 5: mentioning that this was a state case and not a

846
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 5: federal case. But they said, yeah, we are not going

847
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 5: to cooperate on judicial nominations, we are not going to

848
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 5: cooperate on government appointments, we are not going to cooperate

849
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 5: on any non defense spending. You know, it's very general

850
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 5: and vague sort of threats. Now you might be ausking, wait,

851
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 5: were these folks cooperating at all before with any elements

852
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 5: of the Democratic agenda, and folks like Mike Lee really weren't.

853
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 5: The thing is is that in the Senate, even one

854
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 5: senator has a tremendous amount of power not to stop

855
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 5: legislation or stop people from being conferred. They can just

856
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 5: make it painfully, painfully slow. And you know, if you

857
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 5: have well people who are committed to doing that. I

858
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 5: think that's where it is right about now, because more

859
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 5: people have signed on to this, you know, Mike Lee

860
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 5: letter since it came out, and so it's all about

861
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 5: how it's applied. I don't think anyone just yet is

862
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 5: blaring the alarm bell saying, you know, how, how is

863
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 5: anything possibly going to get done in the Senate under

864
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 5: these conditions? But it's a notable sort of upping of

865
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 5: the anti to say, you know, here's what we're prepared

866
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 5: to do. And look, you know there's a lot that

867
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 5: Biden and Democrats want to do in the Senate while

868
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 5: they still have control. They've confirmed judges and administration folks

869
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 5: that are pretty rapid clip. They want to keep doing

870
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 5: that because that's what the Senate can do.

871
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 1: Can they stop that from happening?

872
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 6: Now?

873
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 5: They can't stop it from happening, but there's procedural levers

874
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 5: that they can pull in order to slow things down.

875
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 5: The Senate is a lot different from the House justin that,

876
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 5: you know, it operates on a basis of there is

877
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 5: like a mutual kind of partisan understanding of each other

878
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 5: where you know, like parties will put up fights on bills,

879
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 5: but when it comes to like expedited consideration, the party,

880
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 5: the minority party will often just let the majority party,

881
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 5: you know, proceed with something and not completely.

882
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 3: Jack it out. Usually the reason is because people just

883
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 3: want to go home on Thursday.

884
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 5: If they don't want to keep people in for the weekend,

885
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 5: they don't want to keep people in on the holidays. Ultimately,

886
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 5: you know, they want to put up the partisan fight,

887
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 5: have the argument post, the tweets, have the floor speech,

888
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 5: but people know, Okay, this is ultimately going to pass.

889
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 3: That's the thing. They can't stop things now.

890
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 5: I think what some of these you know, kind of

891
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 5: the magnfaction and the Senate wants to do is make

892
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 5: or at least what they say they want to do.

893
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 3: Is make everything as painful as possible.

894
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 5: Again, they can't stop the sayings unless they are able to,

895
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 5: like marshal votes or do whatever internally in order to

896
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 5: actually try and defeat dominees. But the biggest tool that

897
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 5: they have in their toolkitten is to slow things down,

898
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 5: and that's just going to make it more painful for everybody.

899
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 5: So whether they actually follow through with it is interesting.

900
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 5: But I do think it was the most kind of concrete,

901
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 5: sort of downstream thing happening from the Trump condition in

902
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 5: terms of what it meant for Capitol Hill. I mean,

903
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 5: pretty predictable that Jim Jordan and those kinds of folks are.

904
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: Gonna theseus are always going to be on board. But

905
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: Bill Haggarty from Tennessee. I watch a lot of c

906
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: SPAN and he's really turned into a lunatic, that's my

907
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: professional opinion.

908
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 5: So he's on this letter. He's interesting because he's like

909
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 5: kind of more of a like he was Trump's ambassador

910
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 5: to Japan and had kind of positioned himself as more

911
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 5: of a statesman. But I do think what this Lee

912
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 5: effort has done a little bit has sort of been

913
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 5: like become a bit of a litmus test, right are

914
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 5: you maga?

915
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: Are you not for Donald J? Trump?

916
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 4: Right?

917
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 5: And I think one thing to really hone in on

918
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 5: that I think is super important with all this is

919
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 5: with the connection in New York, and I pay a

920
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 5: lot of attention for better or for worse, to like

921
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 5: what people in the like MAGA or like MAGA adjacent

922
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 5: influencers spheres are saying about all this and the resounding

923
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 5: feeling and it is extremely strong in this group is

924
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 5: we're done watching Republicans put out statements and tweets and

925
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 5: do media appearances where they cry the treatment of Donald

926
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 5: Trump and then just kind of do nothing about it.

927
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 5: In their eyes, they want action. They're saying, the time

928
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 5: we're talking is over. It is time for you guys

929
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 5: to act. And that basically is the sentiment that Mike

930
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 5: Lee was speaking directly to when he was doing this letter,

931
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 5: and he kind of threw down a gautlet is actually

932
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 5: kind of smart, basically saying, look, if you want to

933
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 5: show people, not even show Trump, if you want to

934
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 5: show the party base that you are serious here, that

935
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 5: you are actually doing what you're saying you're going to do,

936
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 5: not just another swamp rhino, then you got to get

937
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 5: on board with this. And the funny thing is like,

938
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 5: is this going to have any impact? We don't know.

939
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 3: That's the litmus test.

940
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: I want to talk about a piece you just wrote

941
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: for The Boss. Democrats are running for state legislature and

942
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 1: record numbers. This is this fact that wonderful. Amanda Littman

943
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: from Run for Something talks about this tail codes effect

944
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: where that maybe the bottom of the ticket helps the top.

945
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: What do you think.

946
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's a really interesting dynamic to keep

947
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 5: an eye on and something that could make a big

948
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 5: difference this year. And I spoke to a man there

949
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 5: for the story, and I think she makes some smart

950
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 5: points about Look, what I focused on in the story

951
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 5: is that, you know, in many states there are just

952
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 5: Democrats running in almost every single legislative state, legislative state

953
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 5: Senate district. A lot of those districts they may not win,

954
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 5: they're solidly Republican districts. But by putting up a candidate

955
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 5: giving people another reason to turn out, often these candidates

956
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 5: are more well known in their communities. They're canvassing her

957
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 5: hockey doors. By giving people another reason to turn out,

958
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 5: you can you know, just slightly bump up that turnout

959
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 5: in you know, maybe a red district, but in the

960
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 5: broader content of statewide. Because we're talking about states like Wisconsin, Arizona,

961
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 5: North Carolina, Pennsylvania. These are the states they're going to

962
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 5: decide the Senate, they're going to decide the White House.

963
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 5: And Democrats, I think are now understanding that if you

964
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 5: compete everywhere, if you bring the Democratic message into more places,

965
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 5: that's just necessarily going to help the top of the ticket.

966
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 5: And I think it's important because you know, this is

967
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 5: Joe Biden. You know, if he's struggling with popularity, people

968
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 5: may not be inclined to just come out to vote

969
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 5: for him. They need to give Democrats other reasons.

970
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 3: To come out.

971
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 5: So it's a dynamic that is important to watch, and

972
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 5: I think it's going to have big implications not just

973
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 5: for how these states are controlled and who's in charge,

974
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 5: but also you know what ends up happening at the

975
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 5: top of the ticket.

976
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: It's an important and it's an interesting idea. Thank you

977
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: so much, Sam.

978
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 3: Brody, always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. They're no

979
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 3: moment second. Jesse Cannon my junk fast.

980
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 6: I often think of when people talk about how Trump

981
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,720
Speaker 6: got elected, they say, is an authentic Fox News grandpa,

982
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 6: And today he was described as your drunk uncle, and

983
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 6: I say that sounds right too.

984
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: So Donald Trump went to Congress first time since the

985
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: Armed Insurrection, though he didn't actually show up for the

986
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: Armed insurrection, but he showed up there, a source in

987
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: the room put it, and these are Republicans, these are

988
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 1: his people, right. He did also say Nancy Pelosi's daughter

989
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: was a quote unquote wacko. You would think he had

990
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: done enough to that family. As one source in the

991
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: room put it, Trump was rambling like talking to your

992
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: drunk uncle at the family reunion. I'm reading this from

993
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: notice NTUS. You should all subscribe. It's a nonprofit newsroom.

994
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: Very very good. Trump was just Trump. And then they

995
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: took lots of embarrassing photos with him where it looked

996
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: like they were kissing his ring. And immediately afterwards, the

997
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel ran a story that started with Trump

998
00:52:54,440 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: calls Milwaukee quote horrible city weeks before RNC comes to town. Congratulations,

999
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, you are our moment of fuckery. That's it

1000
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday,

1001
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds in politics

1002
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what

1003
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep

1004
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: the conversation going, and again thanks for listening.