1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. We're out this week, so we have 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: some episodes from the vault here for you. This is 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: going to be part one of our series on meteoric 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: metal and alien iron. This one originally published five seven, 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff to Blow 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 3: Your Mind, we wanted to kick off a series of 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 3: episodes on tools, blades, weapons, artifacts, ceremonial ornaments, and various 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 3: things things made by humans out of materials that came 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 3: from outer space, particularly stuff made from mediorite iron. 15 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, whether you've listened to our show before or not, 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: you're probably familiar with the three age system of classifying 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: ancient civilizations, defining them by their material and the technological 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: level of advancement for that given civilization. And this is 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: not without its complexity and even its controversy, as we'll 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: get into, but it divides things into the Stone Age, 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age. In this series 22 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: of episodes, from stuff to blow your mind. We're going 23 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: to be dealing predominantly with the age of bronze, typified 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: by its bronze production and lasting very roughly, and these 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: dates are not solid for all places and civilizations. A 26 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: strong caveat there from somewhere around thirty three hundred to 27 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: twelve hundred BCE. So we're dealing with a very amorphous 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: period of time here, and the transference into the Age 29 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: of Iron is much the same. But before we jump 30 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: into the key example that we're going to be looking 31 00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: at in this episode, I just wanted to share a 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: couple of quotes to perhaps help put this time frame 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: in perspective and even cast a different light on civilization 34 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: before the widespread production and use of iron. Both of 35 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: these are from books that deal more specifically with Chinese 36 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: technology and Chinese history, but I believe some of the 37 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: takeaways from both of these quotes are just appliable across 38 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: the board. So this first one is a quote from 39 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: John Key in his book A History of China. He writes, quote, Indeed, 40 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: bronze came to occupy much the same position in ancient 41 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: China as stone in the contemporary civilization of Egypt or 42 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: later those of Iran, Persia and Greece. Enormous effort was 43 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: devoted to producing bronzewere highly sophisticated ideas were expressed through it. 44 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: Some of the earliest inscriptions were found on it, and 45 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: its durability has ensured that plentiful examples have survived. And 46 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: this other quote is from Joseph Needham, whose work we've 47 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: discussed in the show before, from Science and Society in 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: Ancient China quote, it looks as if the earliest kings 49 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: or feudal princes recognized bronze metallurgy to be the basis 50 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: of feudal power over the Neolithic peasantry because of the 51 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: superior arms which it rendered possible, and therefore they appropriated 52 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: that the technique of metalworking. So what I like about 53 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: these two quotes is I think they helped drive home 54 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: that bronze was not only a material for tools, but 55 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: a material through which culture was made manifest, as well 56 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: as a source of power, both in physical weaponry and 57 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: even just as an idea. And while these examples, again 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: are both from texts that focus exclusively on Chinese history, 59 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,839 Speaker 1: I think you can sort of get a broader take 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: home from them, Like I said earlier, So on top 61 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: of that, I would say, also, I think it's essential 62 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: to keep in mind that the Bronze age was far 63 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: from just a period between or a precursor to something 64 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: better or more advanced. It was a time of great 65 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: technological and cultural advancement. It was the age of the 66 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: wheel of irrigation, writing systems, enhanced weaponry, and much more. 67 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: And it's not merely the time before iron. It is 68 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: the time that gave birth to iron technology as well well. 69 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: And I think that can really be driven home in 70 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: the fact that iron is not even necessarily for all 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: uses a superior metal to bronze. Bronze could be considered 72 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 3: materially superior in some ways. It's just that iron, once 73 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: you have the technology to smelt it and then work 74 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: it in the high temperatures you need, it is easier 75 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 3: to produce at mass scales and cheaper. 76 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's definitely from what I've read, there's 77 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: definitely a period of time in which your early smelted 78 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: iron tools, weapons, what have you are not going to 79 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: be as durable and as highly efficient as the high 80 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: end bronze weapons and tools of that same time period. 81 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 4: But you can make more of them. 82 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: Right, right, But eventually, of course iron comes to. 83 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: Dominate, especially in the form of steel. 84 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: Yes, I know some will say steel isn't strong, flesh 85 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: is strong, YadA, YadA, YadA, but steel's pretty strong. Well. 86 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: I do want to start within one of the regional 87 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: Bronze ages to start off today's episode by looking at 88 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: a very intriguing and mysterious artifact from ancient Egypt. This 89 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: is a dagger from the stars found buried alongside the 90 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: pharaoh tutin Common. So the tomb of the eighteenth dynasty 91 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 3: Egyptian pharaoh tutin Common was uncovered by the British archaeologist 92 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: Howard Carter and his team in nineteen twenty two. Tuton 93 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: Common reigned from thirteen sixty one to thirteen fifty two BCE, 94 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: becoming king around the age of nine or so, unruling 95 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: until his early death around the age of eighteen. Tutin 96 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 3: Common is thought to have been a son of the 97 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 3: pharaoh Akinaten, though from what I understand this relationship is 98 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: not totally certain. There is a DNA relation to another 99 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 3: mummy that has been found that is presumed to be Acinatin, 100 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: but it's not known for sure. Acintin, his likely father, 101 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 3: was notable for trying to replace the traditional polytheistic religion 102 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 3: of Egypt with a it's debatable how to characterize this, 103 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: but a monotheistic or monolteristic or perhaps henotheistic, whatever you 104 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: call it, focus on a single god, an emphasis of 105 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 3: one God above all the others from the Egyptian pantheon, 106 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 3: and that is the solar deity Aughtan, which took the 107 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 3: form of the disk of the Sun. We've talked about 108 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: that sort of attempt to go one God early in 109 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 3: Egypt before, but this shift did not last long after 110 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 3: Acinatin's death, and one of Tutonkommon's main accomplishments as pharaoh 111 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 3: seems to have been the restoration of the old polytheistic cults. 112 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, the rejection of new coke and the reacceptance of 113 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: old coke. 114 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 3: Play in the hits getting the old gang together. So 115 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 3: Tummons Tomb was considered a very special discovery in the 116 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 3: twentieth century because even though it had been partially looted 117 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: at least twice shortly after it was sealed, it was 118 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: still considered relatively intact compared to other tombs. So many 119 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: of the original grave goods were still in place, and 120 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: this was not really the case at all for most 121 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 3: of the other royal tombs of ancient Egypt. They were 122 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: mostly scoured by grave robbers thousands of years ago. This 123 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: is sometimes misstated as saying that that tuten Coommon's Tune 124 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 3: tomb had never been disturbed, and that's not true. It 125 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 3: was robbed long ago like all the rest of them, 126 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: it just didn't get robbed as much. And some have 127 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 3: speculated that Tuten Common's tomb was relatively well preserved because 128 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 3: the entrance got covered up by stuff and people pretty 129 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 3: quickly forgot where it was. And so when this tomb 130 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: was rediscovered in the twentieth century, it contained a wealth 131 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 3: of treasures and a beautiful, wonderful glimpse into the past. 132 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 3: So for a taste of the variety of objects found 133 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: in the tomb, I just wanted to read directly from 134 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 3: the diary entry of Howard Carter describing the day of 135 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: November twenty sixth, nineteen twenty two, when his team finally 136 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 3: cleared away the last of the rubble from the passageway 137 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: into the tomb and got the first look inside. So 138 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,559 Speaker 3: Carter writes, quote, it was some time before one could see. 139 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: The hot air escaping caused the candle to flicker, But 140 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 3: as soon as one's eyes became accustomed to the glimmer 141 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 3: of light, the interior of the chamber gradually loomed before one, 142 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 3: with its strange and wonderful medley of extraordinary and beautiful 143 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: objects heaped upon one another. There was naturally short suspense 144 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: for those present who could not see. When Lord Carnivon 145 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: said to me, can you see anything? I replied to him, yes, 146 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 3: it is wonderful. I then, with precaution, made the whole 147 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: sufficiently large for both of us to see. With the 148 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: light of an electric torch as well as an additional candle, 149 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 3: we looked in. Our sensations and astonishment are difficult to describe, 150 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 3: as the better light revealed to us the marvelous collection 151 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 3: of treasures. Two strange ebony black effigies of a king, 152 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 3: gold sandaled bearing staff and mace loomed out from the 153 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 3: cloak of darkness. Gilded couches in strange forms lion headed, 154 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 3: hathor headed, and beast infernal, exquisitely painted inlaid and ornamental caskets, flowers, 155 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: alabaster vases, some beautifully executed of lotus and papyrus device, 156 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: strange black shrines with a gilded monster snake appearing from within, 157 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 3: quite ordinary looking white chests, finely carved chairs, a golden 158 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: inlaid throne, a heap of large, curious white oviform boxes 159 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 3: beneath our very eyes on the threshold, a lovely lodiform 160 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 3: wishing cup in translucent alabaster, stools of all shapes and 161 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: design of both common and rare materials. And lastly, a 162 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: confusion of overturned parts of chariots glinting with gold, peering 163 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 3: from amongst which was a mannequin, the first impression of 164 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 3: which suggested the property room of an opera of a 165 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 3: vanished civilization. Our sensations were bewildering and full of strange emotion. 166 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 3: We questioned one another as to the meaning of it all. 167 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 3: Was it a tomb or merely a cash A sealed 168 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: doorway between the two sentinel statues proved there was more beyond, 169 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 3: and with the numerous cartouches bearing the name of Touton 170 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: common on most of the objects before us, there was 171 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: little doubt that there behind was the grave of that pharaoh. 172 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like the atmosphere. He captures here in 173 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: this description. 174 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: One of my favorite things is the description of the 175 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 3: disassembled parts of the chariot all there piled. 176 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 4: Up in the tomb. 177 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 3: Anyway, documenting the contents of the tomb went on for 178 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 3: years after the initial discovery, and one of the objects 179 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 3: found later, this was in nineteen twenty five. This was 180 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: buried right alone along with the pharaoh's body. One of 181 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 3: these artifacts, it was a beautiful dagger. In fact, there 182 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 3: were two daggers buried with toot and common, one made 183 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: of gold and another made of iron. And ironically it's 184 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: the iron dagger that I would like to focus on, 185 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 3: so Rob, I've got some pictures for you to look 186 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 3: at here, sort of like with different sides of the 187 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: dagger facing and then different types of illumination. But the 188 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: iron dagger is a little over a foot long, and 189 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 3: it was found not only within the king's tomb, but 190 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 3: with his mummified remains inside the inner coffin, and in fact, 191 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,599 Speaker 3: not only in the inner coffin, but literally inside the 192 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: king's wrappings, so wrapped up with him up against his thigh, 193 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 3: the gold dagger was apparently on his abdomen. 194 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very splendid looking weapon, and there are 195 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: no shortage of images of this, you can easily look 196 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: up online. 197 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: So the knife has a handle made out of gold 198 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 3: with a crystal knob on the end, sort of very 199 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 3: smooth and rounded off crystal knob, and a golden sheath 200 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 3: decorated with images of on one part a repeating feather pattern. 201 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: There are flowers I think maybe supposed to be lilli's, 202 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 3: and there's also a jackal's head. And surprisingly, this dagger 203 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: made out of iron remained relatively rust free for all 204 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 3: these centuries. Though it does have blemishes, they're not rust Instead, 205 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 3: it has black spots in the middle that to me 206 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 3: almost look like lunar maria. 207 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 4: They're these sort. 208 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 3: Of you know, strange, beautiful little black depressions that have 209 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 3: almost geographical looking edges. 210 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 211 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, So this. 212 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 3: Dagger made of iron was instantly quite interesting to experts 213 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: because it was made of iron. Toot In Common lived 214 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 3: at a time when iron artifacts were quite rare in Egypt, 215 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 3: not completely non existent, but precious and few. We associate 216 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 3: iron today with raw utility. I think of like just 217 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 3: stacks of rebar and stuff, you know, Like we think 218 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 3: of its hardness and toughness and its ready availability. So, 219 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 3: of course iron and steel, steel being a product of iron, 220 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 3: are thought of as useful for making durable workaday tools 221 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 3: machine parts, in architecture, for making bridges and framing buildings 222 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 3: and so forth. But in Tutan Commons Egypt, the evidence 223 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 3: indicates that the rare iron artifacts that did exist were 224 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 3: treated instead as sacred, decorative and ceremonial items, more like 225 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 3: we treat gold and silver today, except perhaps even more precious. Now, 226 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 3: why would something as cheap, abundant and mundane as iron 227 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 3: be treated as precious sacred material. It seems to be 228 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 3: because at the time iron was anything but abundant and mundane. 229 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: The mundane iron that we think of today is extracted 230 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 3: from iron ore that we mine out of the ground, 231 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 3: and then we extract in pure metallic form from its 232 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 3: ore form in extremely hot furnaces. And while there were 233 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 3: plenty of iron ore deposits in the deserts of Egypt, 234 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 3: there was not a widespread industry that was able to 235 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: separate pure metallic iron from its ore in the region 236 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 3: until several hundred years later. Now, why was iron harder 237 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 3: to work with and extract than other metals such as 238 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 3: the copper tin alloy that forms the basis of ancient bronze. 239 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: I think that there's sort of a more complicated answer 240 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 3: and a sort of a simpler answer, And the simpler 241 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: answer is basically higher melting point, Like it takes more 242 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 3: energy to extract iron from its ore, and it takes 243 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 3: more heat to make it malleable and workable once it 244 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: is extracted. 245 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I remember we went into some of this 246 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: back when we did an episode on the One Ring 247 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: of the Lord of the Rings, and you know, talking 248 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: about what kind of metals would would melt or not 249 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: melt the constraints that are laid out in the text. 250 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: However, there was one source of pure or to some 251 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,359 Speaker 3: degree pure metallic iron available before the smelting process was developed, 252 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 3: and that source of metallic iron was meteorites, chunks of 253 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: iron that fell from space. So experts have for a 254 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: long time suggested that maybe King Tut's dagger, and not 255 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: just his dagger, but other iron artifacts that were also 256 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 3: found within the tomb and other iron artifacts from ancient 257 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: Egypt from this period and before, were in fact meteoric 258 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 3: in origin, that they were hammered out of iron that 259 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 3: fell to Earth from the sky. 260 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: So your exploitive headline here, of course, is ancient Egyptian 261 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: to use space weapons, and I've seen various indulgences of 262 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But I mean, yeah, you're not 263 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: too far off the mark with that, even if you 264 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: are implying things that are not true as well. I've 265 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: even seen alien weapons mentioned before. 266 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: Now before those of you get too excited, no this, 267 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 3: this is not ancient alien stuff. 268 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 4: No, this would be. 269 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: This does not need to be a gift from aliens 270 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 3: that came from above, because meteorites still land on Earth today. 271 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 3: They land naturally. People can find them. 272 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Right right, And that of course is especially true if 273 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: you if in one or two situations with meteorites, is 274 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: it dramatic in its entry or do you have an 275 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: environment in which objects like this are easy to find, 276 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: such as a desert. So you will find various desert 277 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: environments where there is a long tradition of gathering such 278 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: meteorites because they stand out more. But you know, even 279 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: if you see or think you see something fall, you 280 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: can also get into trouble trying to to find what 281 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: fell from the sky. We've talked about the the phenomena 282 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: of star jelly before. This is where someone sees a 283 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: shooting star or things of meteorite fallen in their general 284 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: vicinity and they go out into the woods and they 285 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: start poking around. Do they find something that they think 286 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: looks weird? And it may be like just some sort 287 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: of slimy substance in the forest. It's a slimy substance 288 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: that was always there or is frequently there, but they 289 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: just never went out and poked it and looked for 290 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: it before. So ultimately you have to know what you're doing. 291 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: But a desert environment can be a real gift to 292 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: the meteorite. 293 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 4: Hunter, that's right. 294 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 3: So what is a meteorite, Well, a meteorite is, in short, 295 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 3: any solid natural object that falls from space through our 296 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 3: atmosphere and reaches the surface of the Earth intact. And 297 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 3: this usually means a chunk of a rocky asteroid. It 298 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 3: seems that's what it is in most cases, but some 299 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: cases could possibly mean pieces of comets or even pieces 300 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: of other planets. Sometimes there'll be an impact and a 301 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 3: piece of Mars or something else breaks off and will 302 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 3: end up falling to Earth somehow. Now, most meteorites found 303 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: on Earth are not primarily of iron. There are three 304 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 3: main types of meteorites. You've got stony meteorites, which are 305 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 3: made mostly of silicon based rock. There are iron meteorites, 306 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 3: which are primarily made of solid metal, mostly iron, with 307 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: some nickel and other trace metals. And then there's a 308 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 3: hybrid category which are often considered quite beautiful. Maybe the 309 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 3: most visually striking of all of them, the stony iron meteorites, 310 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 3: which are a pretty close to even mix of iron 311 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 3: metal and silicate rock. Now, iron meteorites are not the 312 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: most common types of meteorites to fall to Earth. I've 313 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: read estimates that they're only about like five or six 314 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 3: percent of meteorite falls. But they are sometimes easier to 315 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: find than stony meteorites, and this might be in part 316 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 3: due to their durability and the environment and the really 317 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 3: stick around, but also probably in part because they look 318 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 3: weirder and more alien. And stony meteorites can look a 319 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 3: lot of different ways, but rob I just attached a 320 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: few examples for you to look at. A lot of 321 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 3: stony meteorites you could easily mistake for an earth based rock, 322 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 3: but iron meteorites more often, I guess you could still 323 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 3: mistake them for an earth based rock, but more of 324 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: them look like really strange. 325 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have a very novel appearance that even the 326 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: novice would would likely look at and think, well, that's interesting. 327 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: I should pick that up and maybe take this back 328 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: and show it to someone who knows what's up with rocks, 329 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: because yeah, they have this fascinating kind of you know, 330 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: like cool liquid kind of appearance with all these dimples 331 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: and creases and so forth. 332 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 3: Why is this a metal brain the size of a 333 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 3: bear in the middle of the desert? 334 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 4: What is that? 335 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 3: Iron meteorites are thought to probably be the remaining cores 336 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 3: of asteroids that at some point asteroids or parts of 337 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 3: former planetesimals that at some point melted and then re solidified. 338 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 3: They're mostly made of iron, Like I said, they have 339 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 3: some nickel content, as well as other traces of minerals 340 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 3: and metals, some cobalt content, some phosphorus, some sulfur, and 341 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 3: so forth. They are often found on Earth covered in 342 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: a black or rusty crust of iron oxide that forms 343 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 3: as they travel through the atmosphere. And there are two 344 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 3: primary minerals found in iron meteorites. You've got camosite, which 345 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 3: has relatively less nickel, and taanite, which has relatively more 346 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 3: Within iron meteorites. These two minerals camosite and taanite are 347 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 3: quite often found in an interesting interlocking crystal structure, which 348 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 3: when you cut a cross section of one of these 349 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 3: meteorites and you treat it with a weak or diluted acid, 350 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 3: it reveals this repeating arrangement of lines known as a 351 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: Vidmnstottin pattern. And to try to describe this, it looks 352 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 3: kind of like a texture of infinite triangles within triangles, 353 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 3: or you might say, like a actal representation of a 354 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 3: capital letter A in the English alphabet. 355 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks very very sci fi, very futuristic, kind 356 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: of like some sort of you know, a chrome etching 357 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: of the interior scaffolding of the death Star or something. 358 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 3: To come back to our stuff on, anomalous imagery is 359 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 3: one of those things that there are all kinds of 360 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: patterns like this in nature that make people say that's technology, 361 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 3: but no, that's just what these crystals do. And in fact, 362 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: the way this specifically looks seems to be a result 363 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: of creating a two dimensional cross sectional representation of an 364 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: underlying three dimensional structure that's known as an octahedral. So 365 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 3: an octahedron is a polyhedron, a three dimensional structure with 366 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 3: eight faces. So you can picture like two four sided 367 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 3: pyramids joined at the square base. Or if you're a 368 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 3: D and D player, you just picture a D eight die. 369 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's sematar damage. 370 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: So the octahedral structure is created by the interaction of 371 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 3: these two different minerals chemousite and taanite. They formed these 372 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 3: different bands and boundaries, and then when they come together 373 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 3: like that and you cut through the middle of a 374 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: meteorite and you look at the pattern it makes. It's 375 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 3: this Vidmuin Stottin pattern. Now, we might come back and 376 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 3: talk more about iron meteorites themselves in the next episode. 377 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 3: But an interesting question is, so it was proposed long 378 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: ago that King Tut's dagger, as well as many of 379 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 3: these other iron artifacts, were made out of meteorite iron. 380 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 3: But is the dagger really meteorite iron? And if so, 381 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 3: how could we know? Well, there have been multiple investigations 382 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 3: of this over the years, and they've come up with 383 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,239 Speaker 3: For a while, they came up with conflicting results. There 384 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 3: was some controversy over this, were different results, different investigators 385 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 3: came to different conclusions. But it seems to be that 386 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 3: the more recent research points very strongly to a meteoric origin. 387 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: So I'll mention a couple of studies. One is by 388 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 3: Daniellocomelli at All that was published in the journal Metiorritics 389 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: and Planetary Science in the year twenty sixteen, and it's 390 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 3: called the metiorritic origin of Toutencommon's Iron Dagger Blade. Now, 391 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 3: one thing that is an obstacle when you're investigating this 392 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 3: sort of thing is method because modern science has lots 393 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 3: of very powerful tools of chemical analysis, but many of 394 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: them are destructive techniques, so you would have to destroy 395 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 3: some small part of the artifact in order to analyze it. 396 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: And for obvious historical preservation reasons, researchers wanted to avoid 397 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 3: having to destroy part of a priceless historical dagger in 398 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 3: order to figure out what it's made of. So this investigation, 399 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: which by the way, the team was made up of 400 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: both Italian and Egyptian researchers, they use non destructive methods 401 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 3: analyze the blade with a non destructive imaging technique called 402 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 3: X ray fluorescence spectrometry to determine the composition of the blade. 403 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 3: So the way that works is you bombard the blade 404 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: with some radiation they use like a portable X ray scanner. 405 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 3: You bombard it with some radiation and then that radiation 406 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: causes the atoms in the blade to fluoresce, to like 407 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 3: give off light energy as they're you know, as the 408 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 3: radiation hits the electrons that are orbiting the atoms and 409 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 3: then causes some of them to fall down to lower 410 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 3: energy levels, and that puts off radiation in return. And 411 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 3: by analyzing what gets reflected back, you can see what 412 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 3: types of elements that it's made of. And what they 413 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 3: found was that the composition of the blade was iron 414 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: with a high percentage of nickel and cobalt. So I 415 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 3: think they found that it was mostly iron, with ten 416 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 3: point eight percent by weight nickel and zero point five 417 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 3: to eight percent by weight cobalt, and these numbers are 418 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: not to be found in earth based iron generally. Studies 419 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: have found that earth based iron extracted from before like 420 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 3: the eighteen hundreds tends to always have less than four 421 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 3: percent nickel by waight. 422 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was reading some sources about this as well, 423 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: and yeah, a lot of it seems to come back 424 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: to the nickel. 425 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: Though I've read some criticisms that you shouldn't go by 426 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 3: the nickel alone, and that to really be sure you 427 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 3: should look at like some other comparison points as well, 428 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 3: like the ratio of nickel to cobalt. I think some 429 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 3: other things as well. 430 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was one paper I was looking at Albert 431 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: Jambond from twenty seventeen Bronze Age iron meteoritic or not, 432 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: And this is the additional subheading subtitle a chemical strategy. 433 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: And in this one they pointed out like weathering is 434 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: also sometimes something that has to be taken into place 435 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: given the nickel levels that can be detected, and it 436 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: may have to do with like basically a weathering away 437 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: of some of the nickel content at least on the 438 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: testable portions of an artifact. 439 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 3: But from what I could tell, most researchers are pretty 440 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: well convinced by this and other recent studies. There's another 441 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: one I'm gonna mention in a second saying that this 442 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: probably really is meteorite. So speaking to the BBC, the 443 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 3: lead author, Daniellacomelli, who by the way, is that she's 444 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 3: an experimental physicist affiliated with the Polytechnic University of Milan, 445 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 3: she sounds pretty confident. She says meteoric iron is clearly 446 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 3: indicated by the presence of this high percentage of nickel, 447 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: and in fact, the authors of this study from twenty 448 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 3: sixteen even matched the composition of the blade of Tutencommon's 449 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 3: dagger to that of a known meteorite in the region, 450 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 3: one which landed about two hundred and forty kilometers west 451 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 3: of the city of Alexandria. They also argue that the 452 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 3: blade shows what they call a high manufacturing quality, which 453 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: is not found in some of the other simple article 454 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 3: facts made out of meteorite iron from this period in Egypt. 455 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 3: So it shows that someone at this time had the 456 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 3: ability to work with iron at a high level. But 457 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 3: this type type of craftsmanship must have been rare. 458 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, rare craftsmanship befitting of a rare material. There's 459 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: there's one little bit I want to side here. This 460 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: is from the Brian and Fagan book The Seventy Great 461 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: Inventions of the Ancient World. Paul Ti Krattic is the 462 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: main writer on a chapter in that that deals with 463 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: with iron and other metals, and Kradick mentions the dagger 464 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: of tutan Common and there's an excellent photo of it 465 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: in that book. But then he adds an additional detail 466 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: from the following century. So this is a different culture 467 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: because as we've already mentioned, there there are other examples 468 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: of meteoric iron being used in you know, in very regal, 469 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: very ornamental pieces like this and this one, this particular 470 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: one is referred to in a letter. This is from 471 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: twelve fifty BCE. We have a letter from the Hittite 472 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 1: ruler Tatusilius the third to the king of Assyria, and 473 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: in this letter he apologizes for not being able to 474 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: supply iron and instead hopes that the gift of a 475 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: single accompanying iron blade will be acceptable Socratic rights quote. 476 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: So in twelve fifty BC, a single iron blade from 477 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: the one available source of iron was an appropriate placiatory 478 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: gift to another monarch. So, I mean you can also 479 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: see that in the fact that, yeah, King tut is 480 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: buried with one of these blades, you know, within his wrappings. 481 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: But you know, here's this other case where it's like 482 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: it just it just more evidence that like these things 483 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: were so highly valued. 484 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 4: These are the. 485 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: Kind of things that kings gave to each other, you know, 486 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: these are the kind of things that kings were buried with. 487 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: But Kradack also points out that mere centuries later iron 488 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: making industry would end up stretching across Eurasia. So again, 489 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: iron ore is very common, but it is the last 490 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: metal of antiquity to be smelted, due in part to 491 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: the high melting point. 492 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm almost trying to imagine. I mean, I get 493 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 3: the change took place. I suppose over a long enough 494 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 3: period of time that you wouldn't have really had stuff 495 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 3: like this, I guess, But I'm imagining somebody clutching extremely valuable, 496 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 3: you know, precious iron artifacts of a ceremonial value, and 497 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 3: then suddenly, like the you know, the iron working and 498 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: the iron smelting comes into vogue, and now iron is 499 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 3: all over the place, and it's just it's not the 500 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 3: same anymore. 501 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, but they would still have the appeal of having 502 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: this source that is associated with the sky as having 503 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: come from heaven or from the cosmos and the gods 504 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: and so forth. And that is something that I've I've 505 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 1: seen reference in some other sources that I'll probably come 506 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: back to later on that, certainly in the Chinese examples, 507 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, the Chinese, the ancient Chinese were aware of meteorites, 508 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: that they knew about these various events, and they wrote 509 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: about them in their early literature, and therefore there was 510 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: likely this connection in place. So it was this precious 511 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: metal that was unlike the metal used for other tools 512 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: and so forth, unlike even other precious metals and other 513 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: stones and so forth that were used. But then there 514 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: was also the story behind it, the idea that it 515 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: has some sort of connection to the cosmos. 516 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: I want to get to something about that story within 517 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 3: an Egyptian context in just a minute. But first I 518 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: promised I was going to mention another study on the 519 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 3: meteor origin of the iron in the blade. So the 520 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 3: other study I wanted to point out was from twenty 521 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 3: twenty two. This is in the journal I think the 522 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 3: same journal, Yeah, same journal Media and Planetary Science, And 523 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 3: this is by Takafumi Matsui at All, and it's called 524 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 3: the Manufacture and Origin of the Tuton Common Metiorritic Iron Dagger. 525 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 3: And this paper further supports the conclusion that the iron 526 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 3: in the King's Dagger is from a meteorite, and not 527 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 3: only that adds evidence about what kind of meteorite and 528 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 3: so the author's right quote. Here we report non destructive 529 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 3: two dimensional chemical analysis of the Tuton Common iron dagger 530 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 3: conducted at the Egyptian Museum of Cairo. Elemental mapping of 531 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: nickel on the dagger blade surface shows discontinuous banded arrangements 532 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 3: in places with cubic symmetry and a bandwidth of about 533 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 3: one millimeters, suggesting a Vidmin stotton pattern. Remember that, Yeah, ah, yeah, 534 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 3: So the intermediate nickel content with the presence of the 535 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: Vidmin stotton pattern implies the source meteorite of the dagger 536 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 3: blade to be octahedrite. So again that's the octahedron the 537 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 3: d eight die. Furthermore, they say that the quote randomly 538 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 3: distributed sulfur rich black spots are likely remnants of troylite 539 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 3: inclusions in iron meteorite. So remember those black spots I 540 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 3: mentioned on the dagger that I said looked like lunar maria, 541 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 3: You know, those strange kind of geographical looking depressions and 542 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: dark spots. These authors conclude that those are probably sulfur 543 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 3: rich troylite inclusions, little impurities in the original metal made 544 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: of mineral iron sulfide and so iron sulfide. 545 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 4: By the way, you. 546 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 3: Ever boil a hard boiled egg too long and it 547 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 3: ends up with a green cake forming around the yolk. 548 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 3: That's iron sulfide. I think hydrogen sulfide in the egg 549 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: white reacts with iron and the egg yolk and makes 550 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 3: iron sulfide. So yeah, that's what that gross green stuff is. 551 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,719 Speaker 4: It's not gonna hurt you. You can still eat it. 552 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: You are not a fan of green eggs. 553 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 3: Well, no, I'm fine with a full green eggs. I 554 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 3: don't love the green case around the yolk. I feel 555 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: like you boiled that too long. 556 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 4: That's a no, no, okay. 557 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: I won't do any of the follow up questions about 558 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: whether you would need it with a goat and so forth. 559 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 4: I need anything with a goat. 560 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: You know. 561 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 3: Goat's just good company that makes even unpalatable food. 562 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 4: Fine, Yes, they are quite amusing anyway. 563 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: The authors of the paper argue that the Vidmans dot 564 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 3: and pattern and the Troy light inclusions, the fact that 565 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 3: those were preserved, these things together indicate that the iron 566 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 3: was probably forged and worked at low temperatures of less 567 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 3: than nine hundred and fifty degrees celsius. They also even 568 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 3: use material analysis to not just say, like what physically 569 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 3: the stagger is, but to connect it to some historical documents. 570 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 3: I don't think they were the first people to make 571 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: this connection, but they used some material analysis to kind 572 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 3: of back it up. So the authors here argued that 573 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 3: this dagger was quite possibly a gift given to Tutenkommon's 574 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 3: likely grandfather, Amenhotep the third, from the kingdom of Mitani 575 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 3: in Anatolia, because there is a tablet mentioning such a 576 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 3: gift among Egyptian records. There's a tablet that says, you know, 577 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 3: they're they're sending a gift to Amenhotep the third and 578 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 3: it's described as an iron dagger with a golden hilt. 579 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 3: And then the bit of material evidence that backs this 580 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 3: up is that there is lime plaster used to glue 581 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 3: jim stones to the gold hilt, and that lime plaster 582 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 3: glue is characteristic of Mitani craftsmanship rather than Egyptian, which 583 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 3: tended to use gypsum plaster instead. So this dagger, wrapped 584 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 3: up with the body of King Tut inside his wrappings 585 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 3: laying on his thigh, seems to have been made out 586 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 3: of metal that came from a meteorite, and it's a 587 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 3: good guessed that this was a gift to King Tut's 588 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 3: grandfather from Anatolia. 589 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: Wow, now some of you are probably wondering, well, which 590 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: god was in charge of all of this, So a 591 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: brief sidebar here on this in general. For this I 592 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: turned once more to Geraldine Pinch's book and Egyptian Mythology, 593 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: and essentially we should probably point out, yeah, that the 594 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: Egyptian god associated with metal working is the god Taw. 595 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: And not only is Ta associated with metalworking, he's also 596 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: held up as a kind of creator deity. And some 597 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: of these traditions said to have designed and crafted the world, 598 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: to have smelt the new lands, and I found this interesting. 599 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: Made bodies for the kings of Egypt out of electrum, copper, 600 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: and iron bodies according to Pinch, that were presumably made 601 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: so that they could occupy those bodies in the lands 602 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: beyond death, So this would be like your resurrected metal 603 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: body for the next one world. He Ta here, though 604 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 1: is often described as being beautiful of face. His skin 605 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: is often described as being blue, though I've also seen 606 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: it green in some depictions. He wears an artisan's cap, 607 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: and he is associated with dwarves, perhaps to the to 608 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: the fact that dwarves were often employed in gym working, 609 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: and this on its own is a pretty fascinating topic. 610 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: The role of dwarves in ancient Egypt. There are a 611 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: few different papers on this. Some of these individuals worked 612 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 1: in entertainment or as personal attendants. Others were animal tenders 613 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: and indeed jewelers. But also there were individuals of the 614 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: Old Kingdom who rose to high rank and status and 615 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: were buried as such. And we're able, you know, to 616 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: tell they had that status because of the way they 617 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: were buried. So it's it's often argued that cultural acceptance 618 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,720 Speaker 1: was pretty high for them. And and Ta was ultimately 619 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: just one of multiple gods held to have a dwarf 620 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: in form of one sort or another. And Ta also 621 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: would later be equated with Hephaestus by the Greeks, though 622 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: of course Hephaestus was not beautiful of face, I think 623 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: in most traditions. 624 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 3: So meteorites have of course been found by people since prehistory, 625 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 3: but how often did we actually understand what they were 626 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 3: and where they came from. Just one example of people 627 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 3: not generally accepting that meteorites came from outer space is 628 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 3: European scientists up until the early nineteenth century. There's a 629 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 3: good summary of this history of like the debate about 630 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 3: the origin of meteorites in the book Cosmic Horizons, edited 631 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 3: by Steven Soda and Neil deGrasse Tyson. I think it 632 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 3: was published in the year two thousand and The short 633 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 3: version of the story is that there have long been 634 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 3: reports from people, you know, seeing fireballs in the sky 635 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 3: or hearing explode, then finding rocks that they believed had 636 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 3: fallen from above. But as of the late eighteenth century, 637 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 3: most scientists of the European Enlightenment doubted that stones actually 638 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 3: fell from the sky, or if they did believe it, 639 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 3: they thought maybe that the stones, you know, came from 640 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 3: somewhere on Earth. They couldn't have come from outer space. 641 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 3: Maybe they were thrown from a distant volcano, or maybe 642 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 3: they were picked up and tossed by a hurricane far away. 643 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 3: Because at the time there was a sort of a dogma. 644 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 3: There was a convention that space, apart from the planets 645 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 3: and the comets, was empty. You know, you got the Earth, 646 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 3: you got the Sun, the planets, the stars, the comets, 647 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 3: but other than that, it's just empty out there. There's 648 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 3: not like stuff flying around. However, a German physicist by 649 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 3: the name of Ernst Kladney, who lived seventeen fifty six 650 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 3: to eighteen twenty seven published a book in the year 651 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 3: seventeen ninety four arguing that these reports were accurate and 652 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,959 Speaker 3: that rocks and pieces of iron actually do sometimes fall 653 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 3: from the sky, in some cases creating fireballs and explosions 654 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 3: as they are heated by friction traveling through the atmosphere. 655 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 3: Cladney was an interesting guy. He was a lawyer by training, 656 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 3: but he was also very into music and acoustics, and 657 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 3: he discovered a way of visualizing sound waves by putting 658 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 3: dust or powder on a plate and then vibrating the 659 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 3: plate by rubbing it with a violin bow, and so 660 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 3: the powder would range itself into these patterns that were 661 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 3: related to the sound waves produced. Cladney went about collecting 662 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 3: eyewitness reports of fireballs and meteorite falls from the sky, 663 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 3: and he tried to evaluate them for credibility and see 664 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 3: what could be learned from them, and eventually he concluded 665 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 3: that yes, rocks really do fall from space. One thing 666 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 3: he did was use descriptions of fireballs to estimate the 667 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 3: speed at which these rocks were entering the Earth's atmosphere, 668 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 3: and he realized they must be going much faster than 669 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 3: could be accounted for by the Earth's gravity alone, so 670 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 3: they're not simply falling, but they must be flying through 671 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 3: space at extreme velocities. And this connected with the fact 672 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 3: that when these alleged rocks were found, they looked scorched 673 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 3: all over. The friction of entering the atmosphere at these 674 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 3: high speeds melted their outer shells, and so he looked 675 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 3: into it. He published this book in seventeen ninety four, 676 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 3: and it was initially met with skepticism by his peers 677 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 3: by European scientists, but many scientists updated their beliefs due 678 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 3: to new emerging evidence. They sort of got lucky with 679 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 3: some things, some documented events that really backed up his argument, 680 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 3: including a widely reported meteor fall near Siena, Italy, just 681 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 3: a couple of months after the book was published, another 682 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 3: one in England which included an eyewitness account of a 683 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 3: farmer who claimed a black rock hit the earth only 684 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 3: thirty feet away from him and caused an explosion in 685 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 3: the mud that splattered all over his body. And then 686 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 3: there was another one in Normandy in eighteen oh three, 687 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 3: which was extensively documented by the French physicist to Jean 688 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 3: Baptiste bo which included reports of a fireball as well 689 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 3: as an elliptical impact area that had many weird stones 690 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 3: within it. And so these reports were supplemented by chemical 691 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 3: and mineral analysis of some of these meteorite samples, and 692 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,240 Speaker 3: it turned out that these samples were unlike any rocks 693 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 3: or metal ores known of on Earth. For example, the 694 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 3: rocks contained what they called at the time globules. These 695 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 3: are now known as chondrules, their little round grains within 696 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 3: the structure of the rock that began as molten droplets 697 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 3: of minerals in space, and then a crete together within asteroids. 698 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 3: Also connecting to what we've already found, they discovered that 699 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 3: iron meteorrite fragments contained levels of nickel that had never 700 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 3: been obsor in Earth based iron. And then, finally another 701 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 3: piece of evidence was the discovery of the first asteroid, 702 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 3: the Dwarf Planet series in eighteen oh one, which suggested 703 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 3: that space between the planets and the comets was not empty. 704 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 3: There were lots of rocky things floating around out there, 705 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 3: and some of them might occasionally land on Earth, and 706 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 3: that was in fact what meteorites were. So it was 707 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 3: more than one hundred years after Newton's principia that the 708 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 3: true origin of meteorites was widely accepted among European scientists. 709 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 3: But that brings me to an article that I wanted 710 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 3: to talk about to address the question of what the 711 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 3: ancient Egyptians knew. So I was reading an article in 712 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,919 Speaker 3: the anthropology magazine Sapiens written by an Egyptologist who named 713 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 3: Victoria Almansa Vilatro. This is from twenty twenty three, and 714 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 3: if Almansa Villatoro's argument is correct, the fact that meteorites 715 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 3: come from space or from the sky was known to 716 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 3: the ancient Egyptians. Just one cool example she mentions in 717 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 3: the article is there's an interesting inscription in hieroglyphics inside 718 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 3: the pyramid of Unus at Sakara. Unus was the last 719 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 3: pharaoh of the Fifth Dynasty during Egypt's Old Kingdom, and 720 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 3: he ruled in the middle of the twenty fourth century BCE, 721 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,320 Speaker 3: so like forty four hundred years ago, and the sentence 722 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 3: from the pyramid text reads, Eunus the king seizes the 723 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 3: sky and splits its iron. Now, this article in Sapiens 724 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 3: is based somewhat on Almansa Villatorro's academic publication in the 725 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 3: Journal of Egyptian Archaeology from twenty nineteen called the cultural 726 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 3: Indexicality of the n forty one sign for beat this. Oh, 727 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 3: this's got some strange characters. BJ three sort of is 728 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 3: what it looks like the metal of the sky and 729 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 3: the sky of metal. Now this includes a lot of 730 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 3: linguistic arguments that are way over my head, but I 731 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 3: was just going through to get the main point and 732 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 3: pull out some details. And one of the things I 733 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 3: wanted to get to I wanted to mention briefly just 734 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 3: because I thought it was interesting before getting to remain 735 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 3: conclusions or about the religious and ceremonial functions of iron. 736 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,720 Speaker 3: All Monts of Villaturo mentions in the paper that pre 737 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 3: Iron Age iron artifacts are associated in Egypt with an 738 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 3: elaborate funerary ritual known as the opening of the Mouth, 739 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 3: which was a sort of ceremony performed over a dead body. 740 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 3: I think often of a king or a ruler, but 741 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 3: a ceremony over a body that seems to be sort 742 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 3: of activated the powers of life beyond death. It's sort 743 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 3: of like turning on afterlife mode to give you the 744 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 3: powers of like eating and drinking and speaking in the afterlife. 745 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 3: And I briefly got very interested in this. So this 746 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 3: was not in the paper, but I went looking for 747 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 3: a text of the spoken part of the opening of 748 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 3: the mouth ceremony. I think there are a lot of 749 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 3: different versions of this, but the one I found in 750 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 3: particular was a translation of the ritual from the two 751 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 3: Zoum Chapel of rech Mirah, which involved like dedicating a 752 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 3: statue of the dead, and the text includes the following lines, Uh, 753 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 3: there's a letter, a capital letter in here which just 754 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 3: refers to the name of the dead. So when you 755 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 3: hear in, you think of the name of the dead. 756 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 3: It goes, I have balanced your mouth and bones for you. 757 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 3: In I have opened your mouth for you. In I 758 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 3: open your mouth for you with the new uplade. I 759 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 3: have opened your mouth for you with the new uplade. 760 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 3: The mesca hetch you blade of iron that opens the 761 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 3: mouths of gods. Horace is the opener of the mouth 762 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 3: of N. 763 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 4: Horace. 764 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 3: Horace has opened the mouth of N. Horace has opened 765 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 3: the mouth of N with that which he opened the 766 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 3: mouth of his father, with which he opened the mouth 767 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 3: of Osiris, with the iron that came from Seth. The 768 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 3: mesketch you blade of iron with which the mouths of 769 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 3: gods are opened. May you open the mouth of N with. 770 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: It nice and we get that connection back to Osiris, 771 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: who we talked about previously on the show. This is 772 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: interesting too because then when I was researching ta who 773 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 1: I talked about earlier, the Egyptian god associated with the craftsmanship. 774 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,760 Speaker 1: There was also mention in Pinch's work about the opening 775 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: of the mouth ceremony and elsewhere in the book she 776 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 1: talks about the Horus connection and so forth. But it 777 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: seems like Tad did have some sort of connection to 778 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: this as well, and she mentions that it was used 779 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: for mummies but also for sculptures, and maybe given his 780 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: craftsmanship angle, he's more aligned with that end of it. 781 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm not entirely certain, but yeah, imbuing life into the sculpture, 782 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: embodying it somehow, and like you said, perhaps turning on 783 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: after life mode for the mummified body of an important person. 784 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,239 Speaker 3: But also very interesting that implements specifically of iron are 785 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 3: associated with this ritual, that it has some kind of 786 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 3: mythical or ritual potency here. So all months of Laturo 787 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 3: in this article gets into the fact that before the 788 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,760 Speaker 3: widespread or large scale smelting of iron and iron working 789 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 3: within Egypt, there are still these these iron artifacts that 790 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 3: are thought to be made primarily of iron sourced from meteorites, 791 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 3: and that they almost always again serve this more ceremonial 792 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 3: or decorative function. They are either objects of kind of 793 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,359 Speaker 3: wealth and power and decoration, they symbolize status maybe or 794 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 3: that they have this religious significance. But anyway, I wanted 795 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 3: to come back to the core question of like, what 796 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 3: is the evidence that the ancient Egyptians actually understood that 797 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 3: this meteoritic iron or meteorite iron came from the sky. 798 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 3: And so she writes in the second millennium BCE, the 799 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 3: Egyptian word or phrase used to refer to iron was 800 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 3: a phrase that literally can mean the metal of the 801 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 3: sky or the iron of the sky, and there are 802 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 3: early known Egyptian associations between iron and the sky. So 803 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,880 Speaker 3: you've got the pyramid pyramid text which are texts inscribed 804 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 3: on the inner walls of the pyramids where the Egyptian 805 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 3: kings and queens of the fifth to eighth dynasties of 806 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 3: the Old Kingdom were buried. This would cover a period 807 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,399 Speaker 3: of like forty one hundred to forty four hundred years 808 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 3: ago or so. These texts included incantations that would be 809 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 3: recited by priests to guide the dead rulers into the afterlife, 810 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 3: and the Pyramid texts describe a really interesting cosmology, really 811 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 3: interesting picture of how the universe was shaped. And in 812 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,359 Speaker 3: her work, almnts of Llatro argues that the way they 813 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,360 Speaker 3: described the sky should be pictured as a giant iron 814 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 3: bowl with water in it, and water can fall from 815 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 3: the bowl. I guess that's rain, but also chunks of 816 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,840 Speaker 3: the iron bowl is self can fall to the earth, 817 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,280 Speaker 3: and these would be iron meteorites. Now the author admits 818 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 3: that it's not obvious this is what's being described. You 819 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,879 Speaker 3: have to sort of decode a linked system of metaphors 820 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,760 Speaker 3: within the glyphs of the Egyptian language. She writes, quote, 821 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,800 Speaker 3: in the Pyramid texts, the word for iron is written 822 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 3: with a hieroglyph that represents a hemispherical container of water. 823 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 3: How the Egyptians perceived the sky. Iron and sky are 824 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 3: interchangeable in the texts, which is why passages describe the 825 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,840 Speaker 3: dead saling the iron and the king needing to break 826 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,319 Speaker 3: an iron barrier to reach the sky. And then she 827 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 3: documents how there are also links between the concept of 828 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 3: iron and the concept of water, because remember, in many 829 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,719 Speaker 3: ancient cosmologies, people sort of believe the sky was in 830 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 3: some sense full of water, and so maybe when it rains, 831 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 3: that's water leaking out of the waters above. And so 832 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,360 Speaker 3: Almans of Vulatora writes that the goddess Newt personified the sky. 833 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,279 Speaker 3: But also at this period there are religious texts explaining 834 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,760 Speaker 3: the belief that in the afterlife a dead royal would 835 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,920 Speaker 3: return to the waters of Newts Uterus, and so this 836 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 3: sign used for iron is also associated with the word 837 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 3: for uterus and the word for well, like water well. 838 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,279 Speaker 3: And so she admits there might be legitimate reasons for 839 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 3: doubting this interpretation that these associations mean that the Egyptians 840 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 3: knew that iron meteorites came from the sky. And one 841 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 3: is the simple question of, like, how likely is it 842 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,919 Speaker 3: in a given space and time period that someone would 843 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 3: be able to like have the like witness a meteorite falling, 844 00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,280 Speaker 3: which itself is a fairly rare event, witness it falling, 845 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,360 Speaker 3: and then have it be lucky enough that it lands 846 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 3: very physically close that you can close enough that you 847 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,080 Speaker 3: can go find the physical meteorite and then associate it 848 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,359 Speaker 3: with the falling you saw from above, and put all 849 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 3: that information together and then also pass it on for 850 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 3: it to become general cultural knowledge. You know, that would 851 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,240 Speaker 3: take a sort of like a lucky confluence of events 852 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 3: that themselves might be fairly rare, but you know, it 853 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 3: happens often enough that there are records of other times 854 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 3: in places where people did see something falling and then 855 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 3: they claim to have found a stone or something. So 856 00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 3: it's certainly not impossible. And in the case of ancient Egypt, 857 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 3: it seems like there's this linguistic and literary evidence that 858 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:38,319 Speaker 3: would help support that idea that people did have this 859 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 3: cultural knowledge making a link between iron and the sky 860 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 3: and the waters above. 861 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and then again perhaps throwing in the you know, 862 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: the idea of the desert being an ideal place to 863 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: spot them in the dark stone standing out against the 864 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 1: lighter colored sand, and so forth. May come back to 865 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,840 Speaker 1: meteor hunting a little bit in subsequent episodes to explore 866 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,839 Speaker 1: this this aspect of everything a bit more. 867 00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. 868 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,720 Speaker 3: One more thing she knows that I think is interesting 869 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,760 Speaker 3: is this is not totally unique to the Egyptian language. 870 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,600 Speaker 3: She also notes that there is a similar sort of 871 00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 3: linguistic link in ancient Sumerian, which also characterizes iron as 872 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,080 Speaker 3: sort of the metal of the sky. 873 00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,279 Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent. Well, in the next episode, I think we're 874 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,279 Speaker 1: going to get into some more examples. We're gonna we're 875 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: gonna keep exploring the overall topic, but we'll also get 876 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,840 Speaker 1: into some other specific examples from other cultures. Well, we'll 877 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: sort of ask some of the same questions of Chinese traditions. 878 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 1: You know, did they know that this iron came from above? 879 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,879 Speaker 1: And what did that mean to them? And so forth. So, yeah, 880 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of additional interesting angles to explore, 881 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 1: and there are some other other examples and alleged examples 882 00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,320 Speaker 1: of meteoric iron being used in artifacts that are related 883 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,360 Speaker 1: to to cultures that I didn't even know how to 884 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,800 Speaker 1: tradition of using such substances. So it'll be it'll be 885 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 1: fascinating to continue to. 886 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,240 Speaker 4: Explore this, no doubt. I'm excited. 887 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, So in the meantime, if you have thoughts on 888 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: this topic, if you if there are specific examples you 889 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,359 Speaker 1: want to get in there early and say yes, make 890 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,920 Speaker 1: sure you cover this, go ahead and hit us with it. 891 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: You know, we're we're in we're still in research mode here, 892 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: we're still writing up the notes. So you know there's 893 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 1: time to get it in there, and if not, it's 894 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 1: something we can discuss on our listener mail episodes. 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