1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: Before we get started, I want to give a quick 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: heads up. In this episode, we talk about what could 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: be described as self harm. 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: In the evening, you'd hear these noises and they would 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: always be coming from the bathroom, just like this kind 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: of thud thud thud, and it would go on for 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: a while, and it did have a kind of fleshy 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: components to it. But I had so many other things 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 2: to think about. It didn't make a big effect on 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: me until I understood what was actually happening. So I 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: was washing the sheets one day and one of my 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: fellow postulant, Sister Alberta, came in and she says, so, 13 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 2: sister Mary, what do you think of the discipline? And 14 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: I say, well, discipline is hard, following the timetable, keeping 15 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 2: quiet when you're reprimanded. It just requires a lot of discipline. 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: But it's okay. God has called us here. And she 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: looks at me and she says, no, no, no, I 18 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 2: don't mean the timetable. What do you think of the discipline? 19 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: We all have the discipline. We have a little sheath 20 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 2: of nodded chords that we beat ourselves with every evening. 21 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: When Sister Alberta told me this, is my stomach contracted 22 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: and I couldn't talk. It was hard to breathe, she says. 23 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: But don't you hear that noise the professed sisters make 24 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: when they go in the bathroom at night. We're taking 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: the discipline, we're making up for our sins. I didn't 26 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: really know how to take it in at first. This 27 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: is something I really never imagined, never imagine, And it 28 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: was on an entirely different level from folder napkin in three, 29 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 2: like the Trinity or don't talk after night, for this 30 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: was something way different. 31 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: Mary Johnson was nineteen years old when she learned about 32 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: the discipline, and still getting used to her new life 33 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: in Rome, one that was spent mostly indoors, working in 34 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: the kitchen of a men's home run by the Missionaries 35 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: of Charity. On her rare bathroom brakes, she'd stop and 36 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: stare out a window in the hall. 37 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: And I would see Nero's palace. I could see the 38 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: Colisseum right there from where I was, but never got 39 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: out onto the streets of Rome in any sort of sense, 40 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: just going from the convent to the kitchen in this 41 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: one of the most intriguing cities in the world, and 42 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 2: it felt like everything was getting very, very small. 43 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: In the kitchen, Mary's job was to wash dishes. She 44 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: also helped drain large vats of hot pasta water. The 45 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: vats were so big that the sister in charge of 46 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: the kitchen needed help to lift them. 47 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: One Sunday, after we finished Mass and I came back 48 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: and I was headed towards the kitchen, I heard this 49 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: horrible shriek. 50 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: Mary ran toward the sound and found her supervisor on 51 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: the floor, just. 52 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: Covered in boiling water, burnt from head to toe because 53 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: she'd tried to drain that pop by herself. And I 54 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: ran to her, and I pulled her clothes off her 55 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: and obviously in so much pain. The first thing she 56 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: said was, sister will be so angry. 57 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: Mary knew who she meant. 58 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: The superior of the house who was always angry. Her 59 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: gaze and judgment permeated the mind and the heart of 60 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: everyone who lived under her lived in fear. Basically. 61 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: The next morning at prayer, Mary's kitchen mate was covered 62 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: in bandages. 63 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: I could just see she was taking these little, tiny steps, 64 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: and she was obviously in a great deal of pain. 65 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: So the next day Mary assumed she'd be cooking by herself, 66 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: while the barn sister recovered. 67 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: And what did I discover? But she was there. I said, 68 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: you shouldn't be here. 69 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: You need to go back home. 70 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: And rest, I mean, And she looked at me and 71 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: she said, a missionary does not rest. She said it 72 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: in a very small, quiet kind of voice. And I 73 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: told her, this is really silly. I'm going to go 74 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: back to the convent and I'm going to tell sister 75 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: that you're here. And as I pulled my apron off, 76 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 2: getting ready to go back, I heard this tiny voice. 77 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: Sister is the one who told me to come. And 78 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: I saw there were tears in her eyes, and she said. 79 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: Sister says that when mother had fever, she just kept working. 80 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: Through the window at the end of the hall, Mary 81 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: watched city life passerby. 82 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: By spring. 83 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: She was dying to get outside, get out of the 84 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: kitchen and feel the sun on her face. She asked 85 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: her mistress to please give her a new assignment, let 86 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: her work directly with the poor. 87 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: And she says, well, the sister in charge of the 88 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: kitchen won't accept anybody else. She wants only you. 89 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: Mary was devastated. She didn't think she could take it anymore. 90 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: Her mistress looked at her and said, you know. 91 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: Mother always says love to be real has to hurt. 92 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: When she said those words to me, it felt like 93 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: like a slap. Love has to hurt. 94 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: From a cocoa punch. And iHeart media. This is the 95 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: Turning America Lance Part two. Love to be real has 96 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: to hurt. So tell me, you know, I think some 97 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: people who hear the phrase love to be real has 98 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: to hurt would not like it, would feel. 99 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 4: It's a bit excessive. 100 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you say to that? 101 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 4: Real love is sacrificial. 102 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: This is Sister Kathleen Hughes. She was a missionary of 103 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: charity for twenty nine years. 104 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 4: So you think of parents taking care of children, and 105 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 4: people are transformed to having children because they suddenly realized 106 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 4: they have to clothe them and feed them and take 107 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 4: responsibility and then drive them here and do this. So 108 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 4: it's the same with taking care of the poor. And 109 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 4: you're not even a relative to be a missionary. In 110 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 4: the life of the missionaries of charity, it's a continual 111 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 4: giving from the minute you'll get up. And so seeing Christ, 112 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: as Mother Teresa would say, in the distressing disguise of 113 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 4: the poorest of the poor, we had to see Christ 114 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 4: and that sister we lived with whom we didn't like, 115 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 4: or who rubbed us the wrong way, you know, which 116 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 4: is natural in life? Or who is our superior? And 117 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 4: she doesn't understand us. You know, we had to see 118 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 4: go deeper and to find Christ there in those people. 119 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 4: But love to be real must hurt, must cost, must 120 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 4: empty us of self. Love to be real must hurt. 121 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: There's this story, a legend really about Mother Teresa's feet. 122 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: Mary says. It's one that the sisters repeated over and 123 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: over to each other. There are different versions, but the 124 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: gist is that when Mother Teresa was a young nun, 125 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: she was given shoes that were far too small. Instead 126 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: of asking for a new pair, she chose to wear 127 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: the shoes even though they didn't fit. In her mind, 128 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: they'd been given by God. This was why the sister 129 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: said Mother Teresa's feet looked deformed, her toes folded over 130 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: each other at strange angles. 131 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: She had a saying that twas always kind of important 132 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: to me, and that she actually said to me personally. 133 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: At one point, she says, take whatever God gives, Give 134 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: whatever God takes, with a big smile. 135 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: Mary learned early on that love and sacrifice were closely linked. 136 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 1: It started with her aspirant mistress. 137 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: She came to the refectory one day all excited, and 138 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: she said that she had a gift for us. She 139 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: was giving each one of us sacrifice beads. 140 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: She handed out little strings with ten plastic beads on them, and. 141 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: She told us, pin these sacrifice beads somewhere where no 142 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 2: one will see them, in your pocket or inside the 143 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: waistband of your skirt. And then every day, when you 144 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: make a sacrifice, you'll move one bead down. And then 145 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: at the end of the day you write it down 146 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: this little notebook. And at the end of the month 147 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: you show me that notebook and how many sacrifices you 148 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: have made each day. And she says, oh, there are 149 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: so many ways of making sacrifices. If the food's not salty, 150 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: you don't put in more salt. If it's already way 151 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: too salty, you add some more salt. If you want 152 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: to sit in the chapel near the window, you don't 153 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 2: go there. You'll find the hardest place to sit. And 154 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: the thing to me that was most noticeable was how 155 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: happy she was about it. 156 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: The missionaries of charity didn't plug this out of thin air, 157 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: this idea of sacrifice. It starts with an important story 158 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: in Christianity, the death of Jesus, also known as the 159 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: Passion or Christ's passion with a capital P. Passion comes 160 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: from the Latin word for suffering. In the story of 161 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: the Passion, Jesus experience has prolonged and intense pain in 162 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: the period before It's day. He's betrayed by a disciple, whipped, 163 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: sentenced to death, and marched through the city. Soldiers nail 164 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: his hands and feet to a wooden cross, a crucifixion. 165 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: He hangs us way until he dies. Christians believe these 166 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: are the sacrifices Jesus makes for the world's salvation, and 167 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: the missionaries of charity believe that by making daily sacrifices 168 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: they can share in Christ's passion help him make up 169 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: for the world's sins. They believe they can save souls. 170 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: This image of Christ on the cross is so central 171 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: to the missionaries of charity that the phrase crucified spouse 172 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: is part of their vows. This bride of Christ's concept 173 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: used to be fairly common among nuns and religious sisters. 174 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: They'd often wear long white dresses like bridal gowns when 175 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: they took their vows. Today, most religious orders had moved 176 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: away from the concept. They focus more broadly on loving 177 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: God and God's creations. But the missionaries of Charity still 178 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: consider themselves married to Jesus, and Mother Teresa was very 179 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: clear she and all the nuns in the order are 180 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: married to Jesus at a particular moment in his life, 181 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: the Crucifixion. I have to say the first time I 182 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: heard this about Mother Teresa, I was surprised. I knew 183 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: Jesus's death was central to Catholicism, but the messages I 184 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: heard from her growing up were so positive, so focused 185 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: on compassion. With Mother Teresa's focus on the poor, I 186 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: assumed she was most inspired by the Jesus who healed lepers, 187 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: the Jesus who gave sight to the blind, or stood 188 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: up for people whose society rejected, and she was. But 189 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: what Mother Teresa related to most was Jesus's darkest moment, 190 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: his torture and death. She wanted to join in his suffering. 191 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: Once I was traveling with Mother Teresa and she asked 192 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: me to bring her her prayer book. It just happened 193 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: to be open to this place where she had a 194 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: little prayer card. It was the face of Jesus' sn 195 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: de cross and she had written on it Jesus, I 196 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: love you so much. And I felt very oh my goodness, 197 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: I'm not supposed to see this. This is something very intimate. 198 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: This is but you know, it was like that was 199 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: what Jesus on the cross was for Mother. This was 200 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: her crucified spouse in Rome. 201 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: Mary's work in the kitchen continued. She longed for another assignment, 202 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: but pushed those thoughts aside. Instead, she thought of Mother's words, 203 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: the less we think of ourselves, the more God thinks 204 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: of us. Jesus must increase, I must decrease. She looked 205 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: forward to Sundays when she led the singing for Mass. 206 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: She loved the Italian hymns and it gave her a 207 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: break from the kitchen, if only for an hour. Mary 208 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: often thought about what her hard work was leading to 209 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: what they call first vows, the moment in less than 210 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: three years when she'd become a professed sister, a major 211 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: step in her evolution as a nun. She also wondered 212 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: about those strange noises from the bathroom, the repetitive sound 213 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: of ropes hitting flesh. By now she knew it was 214 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: the discipline the sisters beating themselves to atone for their 215 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: own sins and for the sins of others, to save souls. 216 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: So after dinner each night, I would hear this slap 217 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: slap slap from the bathroom stalls ended, cringe and feel 218 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: my pulse race. It's like almost like excitement. 219 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: Ever since that sister in the laundry room had told 220 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: Mary about the discipline, she'd been trying to make sense 221 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: of it. Why didn't anyone tell me about this, she wondered, 222 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: Should I be taking initiative and ask for a rope? 223 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: What's God's will? Hitting herself didn't seem logical to Mary. 224 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: Even though Jesus suffered, she didn't think he sought it out. 225 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: But sacrifice to save someone else's soul from eternal damnation, 226 00:14:59,320 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: that was a peace. 227 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: Love to be real has to hurt. I wanted to 228 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: learn how to love. I wanted love to be the 229 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: central thing in my life. So this is a new 230 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: way to love. Well, Jesus was whipped before he was crucified, 231 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: and this would be a way of being united with Jesus. 232 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: Finally, she found clarity. She told herself. If this is 233 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: a divine test, I'll take it. Maybe the discipline is 234 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: what I need to fully submit myself, beat myself into 235 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: humility and generosity. She went and told her mistress. 236 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: Sister, I've heard were supposed to use the discipline, but 237 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: nobody ever gave me one. She said, oh, I see, 238 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: I'll take care of it. 239 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: So then what happened? How much time passed until the 240 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: discipline came up again? 241 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: So one evening we were walking to the refectory and 242 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: I heard somebody whisper my name. I turned around in 243 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: the dark corridor and realized that it was Sarah, mistress, 244 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: And she stuffed something scratchy into my hand and closed 245 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: my fingers around it. And when I got to the light, 246 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 2: I looked down and I saw those knotted cords of 247 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: rough rope that were dangling from my fist and realized 248 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: what it was, and I stuffed it into my skirt pocket. 249 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: Another sister walked into the bathroom, and Mary realized she 250 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: was supposed to follow. The sister took one stall, Mary 251 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: took another, but she had no idea what to do exactly. 252 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: How was she supposed to last herself? 253 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: At first, I tried to whack at my back, but 254 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 2: that gave like a muffled sound. So I lifted my 255 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 2: skirt and swung at my legs, just above my knees, 256 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: and that sounded pretty right, but a little softer maybe 257 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: than what I had heard. So I swung harder, and 258 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: I swung at my thighs until they turned red. And 259 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: as I hit harder, there were these white streaks from 260 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: the rope on that red flesh. And I thought, well, 261 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 2: now I figured it out. I'm doing penance like the 262 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: Saints do. This is the kind of thing saints do, 263 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 2: isn't it. 264 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: That night, like every night, Mary and the rest of 265 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: the sisters knelt next to their cots. As they prayed, 266 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: They extended their arms out to each side and held 267 00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: them there, mimicking the shape of a cross, almost like 268 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: they were on the cross with Jesus. In nineteen seventy nine, 269 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: a year into her time in Rome, Ariy was finally 270 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: given the assignment she'd longed for, go out into the 271 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: community help the four. She'd move to a new convent 272 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: on the outskirts of Rome, in a neighborhood called tor Fiscale. 273 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: It was flanked by ancient Roman aqueducts, many people lived 274 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: in the archways of these aqueducts. They leaned planks against 275 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: the arches to make walls, old billboards too, advertising Ferraris 276 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: and Colgate toothfaste. One man who lived there was named Alvaro. 277 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: We'd call out whenever we passed by al Varro's arch 278 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 2: and we'd ask him if we could come in and talk, 279 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: and he would always say no, no, no, next time, 280 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 2: next time, next time. And that went on for weeks 281 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: and weeks and weeks. 282 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: Unexpectedly, a week before Christmas, Alvarros lit his billboard door aside. 283 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: He let Mary and her partner into his home. 284 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,959 Speaker 2: And when we went in, the smell was so strong 285 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: that we had to hold handkerchiefs near our noses. There 286 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 2: it was just so much smell. 287 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: Mary and the other sister pulled everything out. 288 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: Lots and lots and lots of bottles. There was a 289 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: mattress reeking of urine, and we burned it in the 290 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 2: field behind the aqueduct. 291 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: They scrubbed the walls and made a bed for him 292 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: from cinderblocks with a new clean mattress. When Alvarro saw 293 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: the feather pillow, he cried, it was just beautiful. They 294 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: lit a candle and the three of them sang together. 295 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: Very traditional Italian Christmas song. 296 00:19:54,119 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 3: Two Shendi Alista lead chill Avia Growlta Alfred Rocher Lo 297 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: Aviona Growlta Alfred Rocher. 298 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: Helping people like Alvarro. This is what Mary wanted from 299 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: her life as a missionary of charity, but she was 300 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: lonely too. 301 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: Nineteen year old Mary really wanted a friend at that 302 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: point because it was getting more and more isolated. Everything 303 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: was I mean all the contact with my family had 304 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 2: been cut off. Oh. I used to get homesick a lot. 305 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: MC sisters were only allowed to write home once a month. 306 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: The superior reviewed all of their letters. Mary says. The 307 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: superiors told sisters not to write about what happened in 308 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: the community, don't mention hardship, and. 309 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: We couldn't receive phone call from our families unless it 310 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: was a real emergency, if someone had died or something 311 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: like that. 312 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: Family could visit if they could afford to travel to 313 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: wherever in the world you were stationed. But a sister 314 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: was allowed to visit home only once every ten years. 315 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: And I had no idea that that was part of 316 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 2: becoming a missionary of charity. Really, I didn't know that 317 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: I'd only get to write a letter home once a month. 318 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 2: I didn't know that I'd only get to visit my 319 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: family once every ten years. I had no idea about 320 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 2: all of that. And you see, there were all sorts 321 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: of rules that were trotted out only when you had 322 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: been adequately prepared, when you had already invested certain things, 323 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: when you'd already come to accept so many things that 324 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: didn't make a whole lot of sense. And well this 325 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 2: was just one more. 326 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 5: It was very high on my family, that's for sure. 327 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 5: It was luckily Dad almost. 328 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: Klette Livermore didn't know Mary Johnson. She started with the 329 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: MCS in Australia in nineteen seventy three. She still remembers 330 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: her first day in the convent. 331 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 5: My friend Ruth came and we were putting our stuff 332 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 5: away in our dormitory and Ruth was lying on the 333 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 5: bed munching an apple and chatting away. Sister Victoria came 334 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 5: and blew us up. You know this is our first 335 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 5: day sisters with sisters. Oh us, Yes, you don't talk 336 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 5: in the dormitory, you don't talk at all between meals. 337 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 5: You definitely don't lie on the bed and munch an apple, 338 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 5: you know, so we quickly got the idea. 339 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: Collette felt some guilt about leaving her family. Her mom 340 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: raised four kids on her own, and since Clotte was 341 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: the oldest, she helped out a lot. 342 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 5: So Mum didn't want me to go, but off I went. 343 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 5: You know, it's sort of pretty selfish. 344 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: Actually, sometimes the superior held letters back for a while 345 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: as a sad sacrifice. Colette remembers one time in particular, 346 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: mail was withheld for lent. She missed an important letter 347 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: from her mother. Rodney, one of her brothers, was in 348 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: the hospital. It looked like he might die. After Collette's 349 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: mother didn't get her response, she called the convent in tears. 350 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: Collette's mistress let her take the call. 351 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 5: Didn't you get my letter? Rodney's dying. He's really, really sick. 352 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 5: Both these lungs have collapsed. 353 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: Collette told her mom she hadn't received her letter. 354 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 5: She said, now I know I've really lost you. 355 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: Colette says she asked her superior for permission to go 356 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: home to see her brother, who was still in the hospital. 357 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: Permission was denied. She couldn't leave the convent. Collette told 358 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: her mother she wouldn't be coming to visit. 359 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 5: I wanted to go home, but you see, had no 360 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 5: money and my hair was completely shaved. Not that that 361 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 5: would have stop me, but I didn't have any regular clothes. 362 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 5: I had just a sari and everything. Yeah, it's just 363 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 5: strange how completely cut off you are from your family 364 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 5: and from your usual way of life. I just needed 365 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 5: to have a bit more of a spine. I think 366 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 5: and say, well, I'm going, But for some reason I didn't, 367 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 5: and I regret that. Now. I can't understand why I didn't. 368 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 5: You know, I can't understand myself, but I must have 369 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 5: been controlled from the inside a bit. 370 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: In Rome. After Mary Johnson took the discipline for the 371 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: first time, beating herself became routine. Did you do this 372 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: every day for twenty or so years? I mean, was 373 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: this really a daily practice for all those years? 374 00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 4: So? 375 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 2: Was there daily practice every day except Sunday or big 376 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: feast days. It started off with very few strokes, if 377 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 2: I remember writing, it was about fifteen. Eventually, when I 378 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 2: became a finely professed sister, it would be fifty strokes, 379 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: fifty strokes, fifty strokes every night. Yeah, and that was usual. 380 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: And then there would be certain times we would do 381 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: double penance. 382 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: During Lent or any other time Mother chose, the sisters 383 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: did double penance one hundred strokes a day, joining in 384 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: the passion of their crucified spouse. Before I started this project, 385 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: I had no idea Mother Teresa's orders still did this 386 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: kind of thing, that it was an expectation of a 387 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: modern day order. A new corporal mortification was still a 388 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: thing in the Catholic Church, causing pain or discomfort to yourself, 389 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: usually as some form of spiritual growth, fasting as an example. 390 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: So I was kneeling in prayer, but whipping. I didn't 391 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: think nuns would still be expected to whip themselves, certainly 392 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: not fifty times a night. This type of whipping is 393 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: known as self flagellation, and what I learned is that 394 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: it has a long history, dating back to the eleventh century. 395 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: In some cases, monks whipped their naked bodies together out 396 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: in the open. It really took off in the thirteen 397 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: hundreds when Europeans whipped themselves as a form of religious protest. 398 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: Over time, though, it became more of a private thing, 399 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: serving as penance or a way to share in Christ's 400 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: suffering and be closer to God. It fell more out 401 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: of favor in the nineteen fifties and sixties, around the 402 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: same time as the Second Vatican Council, known as Vatican Two. 403 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: If you don't know what Vatican Two is, it's basically 404 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: when the Church updated its rules and rituals to try 405 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: to match modern life, but some people held on to 406 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: corporal mortification. Hope John Paul the Second reportedly practiced self flagellation, 407 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: and so did the missionaries of Charity. We asked the 408 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity to comment on this, and they refused 409 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: to be interviewed, but a sister we spoke to who 410 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: left the order in twenty fourteen said it was still 411 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: practiced then. To be honest, I feel a little weird 412 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: even talking about the discipline because I think it's more 413 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: of a private thing for the sisters, but it's such 414 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: a big part of daily life. Mary Johnson thinks it 415 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: has real spiritual and psychological effects. 416 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: Certainly, beating yourself every day is a reminder that you're 417 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: a sinner, taking away any sort of pride, you're someone 418 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 2: who needs to beat yourself. I think that in some 419 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: circumstances also, there could be a kind of sato masochistic 420 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 2: erotic pleasure thing going on. But I think a lot 421 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 2: of things do get twisted or can potentially get twisted 422 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: around when the all sexual energy desire has to be 423 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 2: repressed or sublimated, And I wouldn't be surprised if that 424 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 2: element was there in some way or another. 425 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: For Mary, the discipline was a comfort when she felt guilty. 426 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: After she confessed she could atone that. 427 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: Relief of having the discipline close at hand to help 428 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: expiate whatever wrong one might have done could be a 429 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 2: thing where you would feel the pleasure of the relief 430 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: of I don't have to bear that burden of guilt 431 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: in the same sort of way because I'm doing something 432 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 2: to make reparation for it. 433 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: The rope wasn't the only form of penance. There were many, 434 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: some physical, some psychological, like the spiked chains. For an 435 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: hour a day, sisters wore these chains around one arm 436 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: and their waist, the spikes poked inward. There were forms 437 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: of public penance, like kissing the feet of your fellow sisters. 438 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: You'd go down a row of nuns and touch your 439 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: forehead to each of their feet. 440 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: Or there would be to kiss the footsteps, like you're 441 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: not even worthy even to put your forehead on her foot. 442 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: Another public penance was called beg the meal. At dinner, 443 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: you'd go to the superior and kneel. 444 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 2: Kiss the floor, hold your bowl there and say, I 445 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 2: beg you your sister, please give me something to eat, 446 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 2: and she would put the soup of bread whatever into 447 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: your bowl and you would take it to a corner 448 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: in the room and you would eat it kneeling. 449 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: Mary says, public penance and public apology could be a 450 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: really good thing. You're trying to build a community in 451 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: close quarters, and I could see how being open and 452 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: vulnerable that's powerful. 453 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: One of the things that I learned from my life 454 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: with missionaries of charity is the value of a sincere apology, 455 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: being honest about the fact that we all make mistakes, 456 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: deliberate or not. And the public acknowledgment of that doesn't 457 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: have to make you smaller somehow, it just makes you 458 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 2: more real, more honest. 459 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: February nineteen eighty Mary's still in Rome. She's still in novice. 460 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: That means she's early in her MC life, but she 461 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: knows that might change soon. In a few weeks, she'll 462 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: write her letter to Mother Teresa, requesting to take vows 463 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: for the first time. Of course, Mary's been living them, 464 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: but this will be her first official commitment. If permission 465 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: is granted, there will be an elaborate ceremony for this 466 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: important moment. Then it will be too late for second thoughts. 467 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: Mary has trouble sleeping. She tosses and turns and wonders 468 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: if she's meant to be a sister. The other nuns 469 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: sleep around her, and they're cots. 470 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: So everything was close. You could always hear if somebody 471 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: was snoring. But this particular night, I was fast asleep 472 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: and heard this shouting and this commotion and these words 473 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 2: very loud. I need a man, I need a man. 474 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: Someone lights a candle and Mary sees who called out 475 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: in the dark. It's the mistress in charge, the same 476 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: sister who gave Mary the rope for taking the discipline. 477 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 2: So here's this woman set to teach us chastity, poverty, obedience, 478 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: and service, and she's yelling out in the middle of 479 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: the night for man. It was rather shocking, to tell 480 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 2: the truth. It's like, WHOA, what's going on? 481 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: The sister was dreaming. Mary cracked open the shutters to 482 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: let in the moonlight. Another sister held the shoulders of 483 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: their mistress, who shook under her blanket. There were tears 484 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: on her face. The next morning, the mistress slept in 485 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: and sequestered herself for most of the day. 486 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 2: I think she was so completely embarrassed. We needed her 487 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: in so many way. She was the one who was 488 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: supposed to be leading us, and here she just disappeared. 489 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: Mary told a fellow sister about her concerns about their 490 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: mistress's dream, her seclusion and how they needed her back. 491 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: Then their mistress walked into the room. She'd heard it all. 492 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: Yes, it was a little bit embarrassing, but more than that, 493 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: it felt like an opportunity for me. So finally I'm 494 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: going to get a chance to say something to her 495 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 2: because we hadn't seen her for so long, and just 496 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: you know, so I'm telling her so we need you, 497 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: you know, please come come back. And she was very concerned. 498 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: She said, but some of the sisters are so shocked 499 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: by what I said. And I said, well, if they're 500 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: shocked you, what they need is for you to come 501 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 2: out and just explain something, or just talk to us. 502 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 2: Let us know that you're all right. We all have temptations. 503 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: You've shown us that you're human, So why don't you 504 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: come back and let us know that what you've always 505 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: told us, that Jesus is enough for us. And she 506 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: looked at me and she said, because Jesus isn't enough 507 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 2: for me. 508 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: That night, Mary lay awake for a long time. This 509 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: was the first time an authority figure had expressed this 510 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: kind of vulnerability to her. As she lay there, she wondered, 511 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: what does it feel like to need a man so 512 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: much that you shout in your sleep? Why wasn't Jesus enough? 513 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: Mary was twenty one years old. She'd never been on 514 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: a date, never had a relationship, never even been to 515 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: a school dance. She saw couples in Rome holding each 516 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: other and kissing and made her excited, But she always 517 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: reminded herself, God loves me more than those two people 518 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: love each other. On her cot in the dark, she 519 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: told herself, doubt is the devil's work. To want more 520 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: is sinful. Sister Donata, you are nothing. You have always 521 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: been nothing, You will always be nothing. A few weeks 522 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: after the incident with her mistress, Mary wrote the letter 523 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: to Mother Teresa. She was ready for her vows. While 524 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: the novice has waited anxiously for mother's reply. They spent 525 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: more time praying. They doubled their strokes of the discipline 526 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: and their chains for longer. Finally Mary got the answer. 527 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: Mother said yes, she could take her first vows. June tenth, 528 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty was the big day, Mary's biggest day yet 529 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: in the Missionaries of Charity. She wore a white sorry 530 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: her wedding dress. Mary's family traveled to Rome from Texas 531 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: to be there. The Archbishop was there, so was Mother Teresa. 532 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: As part of the ceremony, Mary's father stood before the 533 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: congregation and read from the Bible. He looked at Mary 534 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: when he said, for his sake, I have suffered the 535 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: loss of all things and count them as refuse, in 536 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: order that I may gain Christ and be found in him. 537 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: He had tears in his eyes. There were more readings 538 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: than a homily, eventually, which Novice was called to the front. 539 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: When they called Sister Donata, Mary replied, Lord, you have 540 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: called me. She then read her vows. Her hands shook I, 541 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: Sister Mary Donata Johnson, vow for one year chastity, poverty, obedience, 542 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: and wholehearted and free service to the poorest of the poor. 543 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: According to the constitutions of the Missionaries of charity. I 544 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 1: give myself with my whole heart to this religious family, 545 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: so that by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and 546 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: with the help of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, cause 547 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: of our joy and Queen of the world, I may 548 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: be led to the perfect love of God and neighbor 549 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: and make the Church fully present in the world of today. 550 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: When she finished, Mary stepped toward the archbishop and knelt. 551 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: He handed her a new crucifix. 552 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 2: She kissed it. 553 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa then wedged the crucifix on Mary's left side, 554 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: between the sary and the belt. Mary knew she would 555 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: carry this cross every day for the rest of her life. 556 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: Jesus was Mary's spouse over the better part of the 557 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: next decade. She had assignments in New York, in Winnipeg, 558 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: in Washington, d c. She even became an assistant superior. 559 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: She worked with kids in the community, led summer camps. 560 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: She loved that work and spending time with her fellow sisters. 561 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 2: I enjoyed hearing their stories. You know, they talk about 562 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 2: what life was like in India or Africa, or Lebanon 563 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,919 Speaker 2: or wherever they came from. Many of them had gone 564 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 2: through all sorts of difficult things to get there. There were, 565 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,439 Speaker 2: for the most part, women who came wanting to serve, 566 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 2: wanting to give of themselves, and it just felt nice 567 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: to be with most of them. 568 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: By the end of the eighties, Mary's back in Rome. 569 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: One day, the superior of her convent, Sister Stella, calls 570 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: everyone together. 571 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 2: She made an announcement, a rather unusual announcement. She said 572 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 2: that there was a new sister coming to the community, 573 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 2: and she wanted us to know that this sister had 574 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 2: had some troubles in her community, the community she was 575 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 2: coming from, so I knew that something was up. 576 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: Mary says. They were told not to ask what those 577 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: troubles were, that. 578 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 2: We should all be extra kind to this sister. 579 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: The day the new sister arrived, Mary was sitting at 580 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: the table working on MC financial accounts. 581 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 2: She walked in with his presence. She was tall, and 582 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 2: she's pretty and broad shouldered and sense of herself about 583 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 2: her that was so online, like what most of the 584 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 2: missionaries of charity had, and so she caught my attention. 585 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: The sister introduced herself. We're not using her real name. 586 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,280 Speaker 1: Mary calls her sister Niobe. She brought Niobe some lunch. 587 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 2: And I placed it in front of her, and she 588 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: started picking up her fork. And then Sister Stella looked 589 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 2: at her and said, but you didn't even say grace. 590 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 2: And this Sister Niobe rolled her eyes a little bit 591 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 2: in my direction, where sster Stella couldn't really see her. 592 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 2: And then Sister Niobe said grace, but without standing up 593 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 2: and without making the sign of the cross, all of 594 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 2: which were very much protocol. And then she started eating. 595 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, I may actually like the sister. 596 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: She has a mind of her own. Look at that. 597 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: One Sunday afternoon, Mary was looking for a place to 598 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: write her monthly letter to her family. It was hot, 599 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: so she went outside to an area between the convent 600 00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: and the monastery we. 601 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 2: Call the garden. Even though there was nothing growing there 602 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 2: except a little grass, there was a little bench and 603 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 2: I walked in. I was a little disappointed because it 604 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,240 Speaker 2: was already occupied. Niobe was there and she was sitting 605 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 2: on the bench, and so I turned around to go out, 606 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 2: and she said, no, no, come sit here with me. 607 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 1: Mary sat on the bench next to Niobi and started 608 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: her letter to her parents, but Naiobi started talking. 609 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 2: I just wanted to thank you for being so nice. 610 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 2: To me, it's not so easy to change communities, and 611 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 2: you've been nice. And then she tells me this really 612 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 2: strange thing. She says, you know, there are some very 613 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 2: decent sisters here, but you are the best. And that 614 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 2: felt really weird because by this time I'd been in 615 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: the convent more than ten years, and nobody had ever 616 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 2: complimented me for anything, because we don't make compliments. That 617 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: would be like a temptation to pride, and so you 618 00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 2: just don't do those things. 619 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: And I can't imagine going ten years about a single compliments. 620 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 4: That's a lot. 621 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 2: And here she's saying, you are the best, and okay, 622 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 2: what am I getting myself into here? 623 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: Mary was a little shocked by Naobi's forwardness and warmth, and. 624 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 2: I said, oh, well, okay, thank you, and I'm gonna 625 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 2: write my letter now. 626 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 1: But Naobi kept talking. 627 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 2: She started asking all sorts of questions. She says, you 628 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 2: want to get to know me better, and she's asking 629 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 2: about my family. And it was kind of irresistible, the 630 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 2: thought that somebody was actually interested in me as a person, 631 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 2: even had noticed me as a person, not just as 632 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,439 Speaker 2: somebody to do things. But I knew it was dangerous 633 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 2: because we'd always been told that it was dangerous, and 634 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 2: it felt very risky, and that kind of added to 635 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 2: the allure. 636 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 3: To tell the truth. 637 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: And it felt really good just to sit with somebody. 638 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 2: And so we sat there, and by the time the 639 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,919 Speaker 2: two hours for writing letters wore up, mineset dear mom 640 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 2: and Dad, how are you? And that was about it. 641 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: For ten years, Mary had worked so hard to be 642 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: a perfect nun. It consumed her thoughts, took over her being. 643 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: That included the rule about particular friendships, as the MC's 644 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: called them. No one was allowed to have a particular friendship, 645 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: but Mary found it thrilling to break the rules with Niobe. 646 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 2: Every now and then we'd find a little time to 647 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 2: have some sort of little conversation. I'd find that she 648 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 2: was often trying to sit next to me during meals, 649 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 2: and she would sometimes sit very close to me. 650 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: At those meals, she might even touch Mary's foot with hers. 651 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 2: And that felt very risky and forbidden, and she was 652 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 2: doing this surrounded by everybody. Times she'd take her hand 653 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 2: and just put it on top of my knee under 654 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,919 Speaker 2: the table, and I can't tell you how that sent 655 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 2: chills up and down, because nobody had touched me in 656 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 2: that way for forever and ever, and it felt so good. 657 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: Then one morning, when the nuns were still in grand silence, 658 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: Mary was putting wet laundry on the line to dry. 659 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: She had a bucket of clothes beside her and a 660 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: clothespin in her hand, and all. 661 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 2: Of a sudden, Naobia is next to me, and she's 662 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 2: whispering in my ear. 663 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: Mary dropped her clothespin. The world turned electric. 664 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 2: She whispers in my ear, Sister, Donata, I love you. 665 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: The Turning is written by Aleen lance Lesser and Me. 666 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 1: Our producers are Alen lance Luster and Emily Foreman. Our 667 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal Andrea Assoahe is our digital producer. 668 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Special thanks to Amy Gaines, 669 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: Sarah Olander, Catherine Joyce, Beth and Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and 670 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 1: consulting producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided 671 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 1: inspiration for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica Alferd 672 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 1: and John Tarrati at Rocco Punch and Katrina Norville at iHeartMedia. 673 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Matt Reid. For photos and 674 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: more details on the series. Follow us on Instagram at 675 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: Rocco Punch. You can reach out via email to the 676 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: Turning at rococopunch dot com. I am Erica Lance. Thanks 677 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: for listening.