1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Trevor here. Just want to hit y'all with 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: a quick disclaimer before we start today's episode. This week, 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: we'll be talking about a lot of issues relating to 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: the gay and trans communities, both now and as far 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 1: back as the nineteen sixties. Of course, terminology today is 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: a lot different from terminology back then. In fact, it's 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: a constantly evolving thing, so it can be tricky getting 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: it right sometimes. We're going to do our best today 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: to be as respectful as possible and use proper terms 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: and pronouns as we understand them. That said, we're human 11 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: and we might sometimes get it wrong or not all 12 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: the way correct. So if you notice something, please just 13 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: reach out to us and let us know. We're constantly 14 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: learning and we always want to do the right thing. 15 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: We're more than happy to take feedback and correct something 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: if we messed it up, so please hit us up 17 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: on social media. We're at Facing Evil pod. You're listening 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 19 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 20 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: those of the individuals participating in the show and do 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. This podcast 22 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. 23 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV 25 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. We are your hosts. I'm Roschia Piccarero. 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 3: And I am Eve Gentilea, and we are here as 27 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 3: always with our amazing producer Trevor Young. 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 4: Hey, a man of many words. It's Trevor. I love it. 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: So, guys, I had a crazy dream last night. Have 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: you ever dreamt that you were in a tidal wave 31 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: and you feel this, like you feel the sensation of 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 3: the wave like rolling about to roll over your head. 33 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 4: So many times right, Like. 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's crazy. So I was wondering, does 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: anybody know, like and you dream about stuff like that, 36 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: what it really means. 37 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: I remember mom saying, because I've dreamt about tsunamis or 38 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: tidal waves like my whole life. And I remember her 39 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: when she was alive, she'd always say that just means 40 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 2: good change is coming, you know. Of course she was 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: polly positive, so she'd always say it was good change. 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: Any dreams I've ever had with like physical sensations is 43 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: usually more reflective of like some sort of like paranoia 44 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: I'm dealing with, you know, internally, you know, whether that's 45 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: about like some sort of natural disaster or something else 46 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: going on that manifests itself in a like physical movement, 47 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: whether it's in water or the earth shaking or whatever 48 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: it is. 49 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: But oh, my god, Trevor, that's so deep because you 50 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 3: heard what I just said, right, I was dreaming about 51 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 3: a tsunami, and then there was an earthquake. 52 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 4: Which causes a tsunami in real life. 53 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: Anyway, Yeah, alrighty well, please, Trevor, will you take us 54 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 3: through today's case. 55 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: The police department found that Johnson, whose body was floating 56 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: in the Hudson River, committed suicide, but those closest to 57 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: her doubt that's the story. 58 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 5: Her death twenty five years ago still remains a mystery. 59 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: Marcia Johnson said, I got my civil rights and then 60 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: threw a shot glass into a mirror, and that started 61 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: the riots. 62 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 5: The idea that she was allowed to die without the 63 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 5: proper response from authorities to investigate what happened to her. 64 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: Marcia P. Johnson was a transgender activist and cultural icon 65 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: who lived in New York from the sixties through the 66 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: early nineties. She was a trailblazer for gay and trans rights, 67 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: and fought constantly to protect herself and those in her community. 68 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: The story of Marcia's death is a sad one and 69 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: is largely reflective of the world in which she struggled 70 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: to obtain rights. After the New York Gay Pride Parade 71 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two, Marcia disappeared. No one is really 72 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: sure what happened to her, but her body was found 73 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: floating in the Hudson River just a few days later. 74 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: Marcia's case is unsolved to this day. It's unclear who 75 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: killed her or how she died, but the most common 76 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: theory is that transphobic gang members attacked her, killed her, 77 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: and then dumped her body. Marcia's death sent shockwaves through 78 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: the queer community. Not only was Marcia a well known figure, 79 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: almost like a mother to some, but it was upsetting 80 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: to many that the police did virtually nothing to investigate 81 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: her murder or disappearance. And so, what actually happened to Marcia? 82 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: Why was law enforcement so disinterested in finding out? And 83 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: how is her legacy one of both strife and perseverance 84 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: reflective of the ongoing struggles for queer acceptance. 85 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: So let me just say as an openly gay woman. 86 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: I cannot begin to tell you how much Marcia means 87 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 2: to me personally. She was a trailblazer, an absolute icon, 88 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: and a in my humble opinion, and I truly believe 89 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: that without Marcia, we wouldn't have a fraction of the 90 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 2: amount of acceptance and love for queer people that we 91 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: actually have today. 92 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: I agree. I think Marcia is one of the crowning 93 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: figures in the queer and especially the trans community. She 94 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: was really one of the first people to do it. 95 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: So I'm really happy we're doing this today. 96 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 4: Frankly, I'm so proud. 97 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I have to say, you know, thank you 98 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: to my sister RuSHA for introducing me to miss Marsha P. Johnson, 99 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 3: because I would not have known about her otherwise. And 100 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: watching the Netflix special right was so inspiring, And I 101 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 3: believe that she's a part of all of our history, 102 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: not just the transgender community. But you know, I think 103 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 3: about how challenging it had to have been for Marcia, 104 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 3: especially in the nineteen sixties. I mean, first of all, 105 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 3: not just being queer, but being a person of color. 106 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 3: Just think about how much she actually had to overcome 107 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 3: and how much crap yep, that she probably had to 108 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: deal with like on the daily, on the. 109 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 4: Daily exactly, and she wasn't the only one. 110 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: You know. One huge reason that we want to talk 111 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: about Marcia today is that, sadly, her case, it's a 112 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: common story for many trans people across the world. In fact, 113 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: according to the Human Rights Campaign, of one hundred and 114 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: fifty seven reported cases of fatal violence against transgender women 115 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: since the year twenty thirteen, seventy eight percent of them 116 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: were transgender women of color. 117 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: So let's also keep in mind that much of what's 118 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: going on here is wrapped up in sex work. It 119 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: was very common for transgender women, especially in New York 120 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: at that time, to in fact be sex workers. So 121 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: in that same report from the Human Rights Campaign, I 122 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: found that one in three victims of anti transgender fatal 123 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: violence since twenty thirteen reportedly engaged in some form of 124 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: sex work. So this is also a huge part of 125 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: what's going on here. It's a huge part of a 126 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: bigger problem we're talking about, and it's a big part 127 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: of Marcia's story. 128 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 4: That's so true. 129 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: I mean, sadly, I think Marcia had a lot, you know, 130 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: working against her. But because this is what we do 131 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: on basing evil. We need to see the light in 132 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: the darkness. We're hoping that Marcia's story can raise awareness 133 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: of the trend in violence against gay and trans people 134 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: of color. And we also we want to elevate the 135 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: story of Marsha herself and give her her flowers. She 136 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: never got her flowers, I believe, when she was actually 137 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: on this earth, So I just want to shower her 138 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: with all the flowers that we possibly can. 139 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: I love that Marsha's been getting more attention in recent years, 140 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: and that's great to see. But I think you're right. 141 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: I think for decades past, a lot of people didn't 142 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:58,119 Speaker 1: know about Marcia. 143 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: So I think, yeah, yes, finally time for a whole 144 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: new generation to know about her. 145 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 5: Yes. 146 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: And before we get into it and get into the 147 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: nitty gritty, I want to do a quick disclaimer about 148 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: terminology and pronouns. So during most of Marsha's life, she 149 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: presented as a woman. But in today's world, I think 150 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: that Marcia would have referred to herself as a transgender 151 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: woman or maybe even non binary or gender fluid. But 152 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: at the time, you know, those those terms weren't exactly 153 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: out there. I think she referred to herself as a transvestite, which, 154 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: of course you know we wouldn't use that word. So 155 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: although Marshall was assigned mail at birth, we will respectfully 156 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: refer to Marsha with she her pronouns at all times 157 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: throughout this podcast. And I truly believe that pronouns are 158 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: a way of validating one's identity in the LGBTQ community 159 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: and with allies. So my pronouns, with that all being said, 160 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: my pronouns are she, her, and I identify as a 161 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: lesbian or a gay woman. So I think it's important 162 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: to share with our audience. Trevor and Yvette, what are 163 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: your pronouns and how do you identify? 164 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: My pronouns are she her? And I identify as a 165 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: straight female. 166 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: And my pronouns are he him, and I identify as 167 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: a pan sexual male. 168 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 2: Thank you for that. I think it's important to share 169 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: that with the audience. You know, like, pronouns are definitely important. 170 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 3: All righty Well, let's dive in. Trevor, can you tell 171 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,599 Speaker 3: us about Marsha's background? 172 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: I sure can so. On August twenty fourth of nineteen 173 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,599 Speaker 1: forty five, Marcia was born as Malcolm Michaels junior in Elizabeth, 174 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Marcia was part of a big New Yorker family. 175 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: One interesting thing is that her assigned middle name did 176 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: not actually start with ape, as in Marsha P. Johnson, Russia. 177 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: I know you love this story, so I thought i'd 178 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: let you tell us about why. 179 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: Well, I can't say Marsha's name without even saying the pee, 180 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: you know, because you know I read that later on 181 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: in life. You know, Marcia would always say that the 182 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: pee in Marsha P. Johnson stands for pay it no mind. 183 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: She wanted people to pay it no mind about her gender, 184 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: pay it no mind about her sexuality, all the things. 185 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 4: And I just I love that so much. 186 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: And of course Marsha's a signed surname, you know, with 187 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: Michael's so Johnson. Her last name was made up too, 188 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: And I heard that she picked that because she always 189 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: frequented the Howard Johnson's on Sixth Street in Manhattan. So 190 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 2: she just created her gorgeous, amazing self. 191 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so Marcia would also say that she enjoyed 192 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: wearing dresses as early as age five growing up, but predictably, 193 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: she kind of got bullied in harrassed by other boys 194 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: in her neighborhood, and so this kind of turned her 195 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: off from wearing dresses and she didn't really do it 196 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: for the rest of her childhood. But bullying wasn't really 197 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: even the worst of it. According to Marcia, she was 198 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: also sexually assaulted by a thirteen year old boy when 199 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: she was a child, and this led her to refrain 200 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: from or engage in any sexual activity until she was seventeen. 201 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 3: God, I can't even imagine, Like that's already like such 202 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: a rough childhood. And I also know that Marcia struggled 203 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: at home, and Marcia said that her mom often dismissed homosexuality. 204 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: But I read this weird quote where her mom supposedly 205 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: pressured Marcia into marrying a billionaire. I mean, isn't that 206 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 3: a weird thing to say? I mean, it just seems 207 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 3: like in the same breath, like. 208 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 4: She knew Yeah, Like I know, right, Like did her 209 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 4: mom know she was gay? 210 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 2: Like you wouldn't say that to a little boy, right, 211 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 2: like you should marry a billionaire. 212 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 4: No, that's just so weird to me. 213 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: But Marcia, you know, after high school, she ended up 214 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: moving to New York City in nineteen sixty three, and 215 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: apparently she only had fifteen dollars in her pocket and 216 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: one change of clothes with her at the time. 217 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: Yep, and Marcia eventually settled in Greenwich Village. She kind 218 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: of got by by waiting tables and also starting to 219 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: engage in sex work, supposedly near that Howard Johnson's on 220 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: six that you mentioned Rasha where she got her name. 221 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: But about the sex work, Marcia would say that being 222 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: a part of that community led to her coming out 223 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: and being her authentic self, quoting her here, my life 224 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: has been built around sex and gay liberation, being in drag, 225 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: queen and sex work. And so it was around this 226 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: time that Marcia also started appearing in drag publicly. According 227 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: to some photos we have and those who knew her, 228 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: her style was not really like the elevated drag that 229 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: you might see like on RuPaul's Drag Race or our 230 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: favorite very club stuff like that. Yeah we love RuPaul's Dragon, yes. Yeah. 231 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: And so obviously Marcia couldn't really forward all the big 232 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: fancy clothes you might see on that runway or you know, 233 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: anything like that, So she just kind of wore what 234 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: she could find for cheap, you know, anything she could 235 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: grab off her rack for five bucks. Or less or 236 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: whatever it was. 237 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 2: But I will say she never looked cheap like she 238 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: I've seen amazing photos of her, Like she wasn't the 239 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: best at doing her makeup or you know, she didn't 240 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: always have the right wig. 241 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 4: But she was tall and slim and beautiful, and she 242 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 4: had you know. 243 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 2: Long floyd dresses and robes, and she always, like any 244 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: good queen, always had shiny heels on. And when I 245 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: think of Marcia, I think of her Hawaiian haku lay, 246 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 2: her flower lay that she always wore on top of 247 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: her head. 248 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 4: It's like she. 249 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 2: Needed yes the crown, like she knew that she was 250 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: a vibrant, beautiful queen. 251 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that she made them by herself. I 252 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: remember like reading about how she would just like kind 253 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: of like find these materials laying around and just piece 254 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: them together. And you know, I think most photos you 255 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: see of Marcia, she's probably got that on. So it's 256 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: it's kind of iconic at this point. And I will 257 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: say I do also think she struck a really unique 258 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: balance between femininity and masculinity, and that's really hard to do. Absolutely, 259 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: it seems to I think have been a really kind 260 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: of like new and very revolutionary thing for her at 261 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: the time, Like you probably just didn't see like a 262 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: lot of people who look like Marsha walking down the 263 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: street in New York City in the sixties. 264 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 4: No, she was ahead of her time totally. 265 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: I think it was super bold of her to do that. 266 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: And you know, she's clearly had a lot of confidence. 267 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 3: Right, I mean, she really walked the walk, and she 268 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 3: lived out loud and proud and like you said earlier, 269 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: you know, in the sixties, I'm sure you didn't see 270 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 3: anybody walking around like that, you know, and especially so confident. 271 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: She was completely, one hundred percent fully living in her 272 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 3: own skin. 273 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 4: And she gave zero f's. Yeah, and I love that. 274 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that she was confident. I don't necessarily 275 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: think that she desired the spotlight, you know. I think 276 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: she was just kind of doing her own thing and 277 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: just wanted to be herself. The reality, though, is that 278 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: whether she wanted it or not, she shortly after this 279 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: period was about to get a lot of attention, and 280 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: that's because of something called Stonewall, which some of you 281 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: might know about. We need to take a quick break, 282 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: but when we come back, we will talk about Stonewall 283 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: and Marshall's involvement in that. 284 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: So now we are going to talk about something that 285 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: is so important to me and every single member of 286 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: the LGBTQ plus community and of course our allies, and 287 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: that is the Stonewall Uprising, also known as the Stonewall Riots. 288 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 4: This was the. 289 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: Start of what we now call Pride. So, in case 290 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 2: you haven't heard about Stonewall, Stonewall was a huge moment 291 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: and movement for our community, and Marcia was a big 292 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: part of it. 293 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a ton of documentaries and other ways 294 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: you can learn about Stonewall, and I encourage everybody to 295 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: do that, But here's kind of the overview. So the 296 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: Stonewall Inn was a pretty popular gay bar in Greenwich 297 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: Village at the time. In nineteen sixty nine, they actually 298 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: started letting trans women and drag queens into the bar 299 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: for the first time, and Marsha was one of the 300 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: kind of first of those to frequent the Stonewall. In 301 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: the Inn was a bit of a DIY space, so 302 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: it didn't really have an official liquor license or anything 303 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: like that, and so the NYPD kind of knew about 304 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: some of the illegal activity going on here and they 305 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: kept a very like watchful eye on it, and they 306 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: were really looking for any chance to like pounce on 307 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: the stonewall in and so they did, of course they did. 308 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: On June twenty eighth of nineteen sixty nine, they initiated 309 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: a full raid of the Stonewall in Keep in mind, 310 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: it was also illegal for men to dress as women 311 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: at the time, so police raids of gay bars were 312 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: like a pretty common thing. You'd hear about that a lot. 313 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: But usually they would arrest like all the drag queens 314 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: and send them to jail. But this night that didn't happen. 315 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: Something completely different happened. 316 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: Yes, this night was different. It was very different because 317 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 3: the Stonewall patrons they decided that tonight enough was enough, 318 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 3: and they decided to fight back. They were tired of 319 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 3: being bullied and harassed, you know, so it goes. They 320 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 3: all got rounded up and they started pushing back against 321 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 3: the cops and yelling and screaming and all kind of 322 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 3: things started happening. But there was one particular drag queen 323 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 3: that she got shoved into the car and then they 324 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 3: slammed her head against the door. And you can imagine, 325 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 3: you know, everybody is witnessing this, and they slam her 326 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 3: head down, and the crowd just goes ballistic. They start booing, 327 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 3: they start yelling things like gay power, and some people, 328 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 3: they say, started throwing beer bottles, coins, I mean, all 329 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 3: kinds of things at the police cars. So this just 330 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 3: reminds me of what John Lewis would always say. This 331 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 3: was good trouble, good trouble. They were fighting back, they 332 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 3: were fighting against everything, police, brutality, brutality, like all the 333 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 3: things not being accepted. Everything. So when I say enough 334 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 3: was enough, this is the moment it all went down. 335 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: Yes, And one of the pivotal moments of that first night, 336 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: there was a lesbian who got into a violent scuffle 337 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: with four different police officers and they were beating her 338 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: with their batons and they actually pinned her to the ground. 339 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: And many witnesses actually reported that it was a black, 340 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: butch lesbian named Stormy de Larvay. And so the story 341 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: goes Stormy looked up at the crowd of bystanders and shouted, 342 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: why won't you do something? And that is the moment 343 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: that all of those witnesses said that the crowd absolutely 344 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: exploded and it became a full blown mob. 345 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: That's right, I mean, And it got so crazy that 346 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: they started destroying and turning over police cars, and fires 347 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 3: were erupting like everywhere. I mean, it was utter chaos, 348 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 3: and obviously the commotion were pissed well right right, I 349 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 3: mean the commotion attracted more people, and soon they say 350 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 3: that over five hundred people were a part of this riot, 351 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 3: and it escalated into two days of full on rioting, 352 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: followed by I guess smaller demonstrations taking place over the 353 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: next week, So it was like a revolution. 354 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: So Marcia's kind of credited as having a big role 355 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: in this. However, her involvement is actually a little bit 356 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: more mysterious than maybe people are willing to admit. So 357 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: they're kind of all these conflicting accounts of where and 358 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: when Marcia was at Stonewall, and really none of them 359 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: are verified, so we don't actually know where Marcia was, 360 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: but we're gonna throw a couple things out there and 361 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: just keep in mind that, again, none of it's verified. 362 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: So one of the rumors was that when the first 363 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: group pushed back against the police, when everything was really 364 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: starting to kind of happen for the first time, Marcia 365 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: was part of that group that was like yelling and 366 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: screaming and all that stuff. Marcia later denied that, though, 367 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: saying she wasn't even there at that time. 368 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 3: I know one of my favorite stories was, well, the 369 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: police were arresting folks, Marcia. This is the story, right. 370 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 3: Marcia apparently threw a bottle or something in a mirror 371 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 3: and she shouted, I want my civil rights. I could 372 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 3: hear her too. 373 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 4: I can always like. 374 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 3: I can't to see her say God damn it, I 375 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 3: want my civil rights. There's something like that. But I 376 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 3: guess no one knows the exact quote. And some people 377 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: say that she threw a shot glass, but on other 378 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 3: account they say she threw a brick. I mean, I 379 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 3: don't know, we don't we really don't know. None of 380 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 3: it is verified, right, So who's to say? 381 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 4: So what's so funny about that? 382 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: Like you both said, like Marcia has denied it, it's 383 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: almost like she was like it was like a game 384 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: of telephone, like, ooh, did you see Marsha P. 385 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 4: Johnson there? Oh, Marcia was there. Marsha was there, you know. 386 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 4: But for sure there are. 387 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: Witnesses that saw her there on the second night of rioting, 388 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 2: and many say that Marcia actually dropped a bag of 389 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 2: bricks on a police car. Windshield completely shattering it. So 390 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: that's probably where that brick story comes from. 391 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good one. 392 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. 393 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. So obviously Stonewall was crazy, and whether or not 394 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: Marsha was involved to that extent is you know, TBD 395 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: or what have you. I want to believe she was there, Sam, Yeah, 396 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: I mean it's a it's a really interesting thing that 397 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: she was kind of given credit, especially if she didn't, 398 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: you know, actually do any or some of that stuff. 399 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,239 Speaker 1: And the fact that she kind of denied a lot 400 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: of it too is interesting to me. Like, you know, 401 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: maybe she was kind of like forced into this role 402 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: of being the face of this movement and maybe she 403 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: didn't even really want to be. I don't really know, 404 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: but I find that interesting to think about. 405 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 4: Could be her humility too, She was very humble. 406 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 3: Right, And you think about it too. She took care 407 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 3: of so many of them, right, and I think she 408 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 3: was just she was a legend to them. So it's like, well, 409 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 3: the legend had time to be there the first night. 410 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: You know. 411 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: The reality though, is that Marcia's biggest role was more 412 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: like in the aftermath of the things that happened after Stonewall, 413 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: and so after the dust had sort of settled and 414 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,719 Speaker 1: the fires had been put out in Greenwich Village, Marcia 415 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: joined what was called the Gay Liberation Front, a sort 416 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: of new activist group created to build on the momentum 417 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: of the Stone Wall uprising. So on June twenty eighth 418 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy, which was a whole year after Stonewall, 419 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: Marcia walked in what was then the first ever gay 420 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: Pride rally in New York City, also known then as 421 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: the Christopher Street Liberation And this is how we got pride, 422 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: as Russia was saying. 423 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: And then something happened a few years later in nineteen 424 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: seventy three that actually makes me incredibly, incredibly sad and 425 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: mad at the same time. I truly believe that this 426 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: was a huge blow to the transgender community and to 427 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 2: transgender rights and awareness. 428 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 4: So both Marcia and. 429 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 2: Another legend in the trans community, Sylvia Riveta, were actually 430 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: banned from participating in the gay rights rally in nineteen 431 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 2: seventy three. The organizers were made up of cisgender gay 432 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: men and women, and they decided they didn't want any 433 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: drag queens or anyone from the trans community there, which 434 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: is sickening. 435 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 4: To me because we're all a community. 436 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 2: You can't leave them out just because you think they 437 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 2: don't represent all of us. 438 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 4: That just breaks my heart. I don't even know why 439 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 4: they did that. 440 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: I think in their heads maybe they thought like it 441 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 2: was a faster path to getting gay rights. I don't know, 442 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 2: but they completely cut out drag queens and the trans community, 443 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: and that just makes me so mad. And I've seen footage. 444 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: I've seen Sylvia grab the mic and screaming at the 445 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 2: top of her lungs, like. 446 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: And they're booing her fast. Yeah. 447 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, if you think about white middle class 448 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: America in the nineteen seventies, you know, their perception of 449 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: gay people was so distorted and so different from what 450 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, we think of today. And so I think 451 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: probably the organizers of the rally and the march, we're thinking, like, hey, 452 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: we need these people to see gay people is non threatening, 453 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: as non deviance or whatever it was. 454 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 4: You know, we need to white wash it, Yeah. 455 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: We need essentially, Yeah, like we need to white wash 456 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: it and make it like palatable to you know, straight 457 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: middle class families and stuff like that. 458 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 3: It's a major contradiction. 459 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there was kind of like this promise 460 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: of like you'll get yours eventually, but we have to 461 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: do this first step if we ever want to get 462 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: there kind of thing. But yeah, it sucks because it 463 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: was still so deeply rooted in a racism, b transphobia, 464 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: and see a phobia against sex workers, right, Like, I 465 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: think a big part of it was that a lot 466 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: of them were sex workers, and there was like a 467 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: lot of stigma attached to that. Of course, so all 468 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: those are bad things to shun people. 469 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 4: For, right right. 470 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: Anyhow, not much is really known about Marsha's life after 471 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: that point. There were a few notable things that happened. 472 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy five. For example, she was actually photographed 473 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: by Andy Warhol, which was a cool thing. One polaroid 474 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: of her was included in his project portfolio entitled Ladies 475 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: and Gentlemen. 476 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: I think that got her a lot of fame, I mean, 477 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, I think when I 478 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: try to explain to someone who Marsha p. Johnson was, 479 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: especially if they're in the queer community, I'm like, you 480 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 2: know the picture from Andy Warhol, and they're like, are 481 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 2: the polaroid? And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've 482 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: seen her. 483 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: I read it was weird though, because the kind of 484 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: image and the fame she got from that was very 485 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: different from the reality of what she was living, which was, like, 486 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: she was very poor, very much like on the street 487 00:25:59,000 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: at the time. 488 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 4: Still surviving by sex work, right. 489 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: And she only got paid you know, they only got 490 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: paid fifty dollars for that too, you. 491 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 4: Know, oh write each model, right, yeah, yeah. 492 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So things weren't super going well for Marcia despite 493 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: you know a few cool things like that, especially when 494 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties rolled around, Marsha's life, like so many 495 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: other gay people and so many other trans people at 496 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: the time, became really consumed by the HIV and AIDS crisis, 497 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: and she was a big part of all the movements, 498 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: the marches that were supposed to raise awareness of AIDS 499 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 1: and HIV, and she was also a part of the 500 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, demonstrations to put pressure on government to do something, 501 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: do anything to help with us, which of course we know, 502 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: they really didn't, they didn't know. And so then on 503 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: June twenty sixth of nineteen ninety two, actually she disclosed 504 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: to an interviewer that she herself was HIV positive after 505 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: receiving a diagnosis just two years earlier. Sadly, Marcia would 506 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: only live less than two weeks after that revelation, and 507 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: for the moment, we need to take another break. But 508 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: when we come back, we will talk about how Marcia died, 509 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: or rather how she was murdered. 510 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: Now we're going to talk about how Marcia died, and sadly, 511 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 2: there's not a ton of information here, but we're going 512 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: to do the best we can. And I highly highly 513 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: recommend going to Netflix and watching the documentary The Death 514 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: and Life of Marcia P. Johnson, because transgender activists Victoria 515 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: Cruz did so much on researching Marcia's. 516 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 4: Murder, I'm just going to call it a murder. 517 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 2: So on the morning of July sixth, nineteen ninety two, 518 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: Marcia's body was actually found floating in the Hudson River, 519 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: and this was just two days after the year's Gay 520 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: Pride Parade, which was the last time that any of 521 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: Marcia's friends had actually seen her. So the autopsy report 522 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 2: could not prove a verifiable cause of death. Something I know, 523 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: my true crime mind is just I'm trying to be 524 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 2: a sponge, but I know from Truvor that a lot 525 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: of times when bodies are found in water, there's not 526 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 2: a whole lot that you can find out about what 527 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: happened to them. But one big thing to note. When 528 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 2: they pulled up Marshall's body, she had a big, gaping 529 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: wound in the back of her head. 530 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's just it's so sad to think about her, 531 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, in the Hudson River, a lot of 532 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 3: her friends said that, you know, Marcia was in a 533 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 3: very fragile state, and we have to think about, right, 534 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: all of the things Marcia's been through, Like, she probably 535 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: was in a fragile state majority of her life, you know, 536 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: even though she was walking so tall and proud, still, right. 537 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 4: She was a marginalized human. 538 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, Marsha's cause of death was initially determined to 539 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 3: be a sue. Nope, Nope, we know that we all 540 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 3: know that that is not true, and especially Marsha's friends 541 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 3: and family, they never in a million years believed that 542 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 3: she would do them. Ever. 543 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a bit of a different conversation. I do 544 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: think when we're talking about trans people and depression and 545 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: suicidal ideations, I do think there's a conversation there. I 546 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,479 Speaker 1: think it's probably a different episode, but it's always possible 547 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: and it's worth considering right, that said, there is a 548 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: lot of evidence we can talk about here that suggest otherwise. 549 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: So one of those is that her friend Randy Wicker, 550 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: came forward to police saying people had actually seen Marcia 551 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: get into a fight with a local gang just two 552 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: days before she was found dead, which is I mean. 553 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 4: Not a coincidence. 554 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 555 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: So one of those witnesses said Marcia was being constantly 556 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: harassed by one specific member of this gang, and that 557 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: this guy would shout all these homophobic slurs at her 558 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: in public, say all these horrible things and call her 559 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: names and harass are just non stop. So I mean 560 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: that right, there is a huge red flag. 561 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,959 Speaker 2: Huge Yeah, And that witness account that you're talking about 562 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: was never verified only because it was never properly investigated 563 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 2: by the police. Police never followed up on any of 564 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,239 Speaker 2: those leads that they got or reported any findings, and 565 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: that particular witness said he tried to tell police what 566 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: he knew, but he was totally brushed off. So sadly, 567 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: the mystery of Marsh's death remained just that a mystery. 568 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, maybe there's room here to talk about 569 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: why police would be so dismissive of a case like 570 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: Marcia's I think maybe the answer is probably very obvious, 571 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: which is that, you know, trans people at the time 572 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: were considered. 573 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 3: Second class citizens than humane. 574 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: Certainly far from a priority for the NYPD, I'm sure, 575 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: and that's just really sad, and it speaks to I 576 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:05,239 Speaker 1: think a lot of homophobia, transphobia, probably racism that was 577 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: prevalent at the time and I'm sure is still a 578 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: huge problem. So unfortunately, that's where her case kind of 579 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: stood for many years, really you know, again, police not 580 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: doing anything about it, and then in two thousand and two, 581 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: ten years later, there was a bit of public pressure 582 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: on the police to revisit the investigation and do something. 583 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: All they really did, though, was reclassify the suicide to 584 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: quote undetermined. 585 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 4: Better than suicide, I guess, but still yep. 586 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: So another decade goes by, and in twenty twelve, transactivist 587 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: Mariah Lopez does a lot of work to kind of 588 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: raise awareness of Marcia and the fact that her case 589 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: was never really solved, and she kind of rallies a 590 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: lot of people in New York City's LGBTQ plus community, 591 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: and they led police to reopen the investigation into Marsha's death, 592 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: which is pretty big. Sadly, the cause of death remained 593 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: unchanged though, so they reopened the case and really again 594 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: didn't do anything. 595 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: So like right now it still says i'mdetermined, right, So 596 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 2: that's where it stands today. 597 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, who knows if it'll ever change at 598 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: this point. You know, I think anybody who knows Marcia 599 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: probably knows what happened. But you know, as far as 600 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: something official on paper, we're probably never going to get it. 601 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 3: Never say never, Trevor. 602 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, you got polypositive sisters right here. Never say never. 603 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: I guess I'm always skeptical that, like, you know, racist 604 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: transphobic police are going to go out of their way 605 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: to solve like a twenty to thirty year old cold case. 606 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: I doubt it, you know, I know. 607 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 3: I it's like you never say never in Hopes, right. 608 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 3: That's why we do this show. That's why we're doing 609 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 3: this podcast, you know, to help change people's thinking. 610 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 5: You know. 611 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: My take on Marcia was that she was, I mean, 612 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 3: at a very high risk for violence. Again, I go 613 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 3: back to her being queer, her being black, her being 614 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 3: a sex worker, being on the street, dealing with John's, 615 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 3: dealing with homophobic assholes, dealing with police brutality, I mean, 616 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 3: dealing with it all. I mean, it was just a 617 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: bad situation. 618 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: And she was still unapologetically her Yes, you know, I 619 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: think we also have to keep in mind that Marcia 620 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: was well known in the community, and I think she 621 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: might have been a bigger target because of that. You know, 622 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: she was really well known for her activism work, for 623 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: her drag performing. 624 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 4: She was a horrible. 625 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: Singer, but she was an amazing performer, and I trust me, 626 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 2: if you google it and you listen to Marsha sing, 627 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 2: it's like nails on a chalkboard, but you can't take 628 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 2: your eyes off of her. But you know, like the 629 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 2: sad thing is, it's like she she inspired so many 630 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 2: queer kids like me, you know, and so many humans 631 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: that aren't even in the queer community. And it's sad 632 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 2: that I think we may never know what actually happened 633 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: to her. And Marcia faced adversity, like we've been saying 634 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 2: her entire life, for being trans, for being queer, for 635 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 2: being a sex worker, all the things, and that may 636 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 2: have been the very reason that she was killed. But 637 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: this has to change for the rest of the community. 638 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 2: And I think how we can change this is by 639 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:42,959 Speaker 2: number one dismantling homophobia and number two dismantle transphobia even 640 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 2: in our beautiful gay community. So I think we need 641 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: to take Marcia's example and work to dismantle all the 642 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 2: phobia's get rid of them bit by bit, and we 643 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 2: need to create more safe spaces for trans people everywhere. 644 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 2: I get really excited and when we get to talk 645 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: about things that people don't get to hear about a lot. 646 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 2: And I think these are some fantastic organizations that you 647 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 2: may not have heard of that you can donate to 648 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 2: to help the transgender community. 649 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 4: And we're just naming a few here, but please look 650 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 4: them up. 651 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: Trans Housing Coalition, Housing Works, Black AIDS Institute and it's 652 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 2: named after her, the Marcia P. Johnson Institute. These are 653 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 2: organizations that are doing amazing work, and I think it's 654 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: a way that we can give back. 655 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 4: All Right, it's time for our last segment of the day, 656 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 4: our EMUA. 657 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 2: Today, we want to dedicate our EMUA to the beautiful 658 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 2: trans community, especially to the trans community of color. Everything 659 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 2: you do is a brave and bold statement of perseverance 660 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: and self actualization, and you deserve health, safety, and most important, 661 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 2: love and acceptance. 662 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 3: That's right and we really want to honor those that 663 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 3: came before, especially and obviously Marsha pay it no Mine 664 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 3: Johnson and also Sylvia Rivera, the warrior of trans equality. 665 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 3: I mean, there are so many women who spend their 666 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 3: lives facing all types of evil, but the one thing 667 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 3: that they had in common, they never let that defeat them. 668 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 3: They kept continuing to fight for equal rights in this 669 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 3: country every moment of every day. Onward and Upward, Emua Ema. 670 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 3: Well that's our show for today. We'd love to hear 671 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 3: what you thought about today's discussion and if there is 672 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 3: a case you'd like us to cover, find us on 673 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 3: social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at 674 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 3: tenderfoot dot tv until next time. Aloha. 675 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 676 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avet Gentile. 677 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 678 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 679 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: Albright and Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of 680 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico. 681 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 682 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. 683 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the 684 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 685 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: favorite shows.