WEBVTT - Interview With Brian Greene: Masters in Business (Audio) 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.440 The future may not be clear, but our commitment is 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:04.440 so when you sit with an advisor at Merrill Lynch, 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.200 we'll put your interests first. Visit mL dot com and 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.640 learn more about Merrill Lynch, an affiliative Bank of America. 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:12.240 Mery Lynch makes available pducts and services offered by Merrill Lynch. 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.600 Pierce Veteran Smith Incorporated or Register Broker Dealer remember s 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:21.120 I PC. This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:26.639 on Boomberg Radio. This week on the podcast, I have 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.000 an extra special guest. His name is Professor Brian Green. 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:35.480 He is a director of theoretical physics at Columbia University 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:41.120 and is also a super string theorist whose contributions to 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.320 the worlds of physics and cosmology are right up there 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.840 with with some of the greats. If you are at 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.840 all interested in things like how the universe formed, what's 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.760 going to happen to it eventually, what actually makes Earth 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.760 unique and special? How long is a galaxy going to 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.120 be in existence? When is the universe gonna die? Will 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:09.400 the universe die? This is really a fascinating conversation. I 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.600 love this sort of stuff and it was just an 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:16.560 absolute pleasure speaking with someone who is such a tremendous 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:21.920 expert in the field, who can talk with great understanding 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.200 and has the ability to communicate very very complex ideas 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.800 in a way that is readily understandable by just about anybody. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.280 I found this utterly entrancing. Uh. For those of you 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.000 who are physics wanks or cosmology and space wonks like 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.919 I am, this podcast is for you. I have to 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:48.120 add that this week is New York City's Festival of Science, 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.360 which Professor Green created and helps co produce each year. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.760 It's the tenth anniversary of this. So for those of 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.320 you who have kids who are interested in science, or 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.360 kids you wanna make interested in science and so were 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.480 in the New York tri state area, I strongly suggest 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.840 you bring them with no further ado. My conversation with 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:16.600 Columbia University Professor Brian Green. My special guest today is 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.360 Brian Green. He is professor of physics and mathematics at 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:26.400 Columbia University, best known for his groundbreaking discoveries in superstring theory. 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:31.200 The public knows him through his books, most notably The 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:37.240 Elegant Universe, Fabric of the Cosmos, and Hidden Reality. Collectively, 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.600 they have sold over two million copies. He also hosted 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:46.160 a Nova mini series which won both Peabody and Emmy awards, 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.760 and that mini series was based on his book. He 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:53.399 is a director of Columbia University's Center for Theoretical Physics. 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.720 Professor Brian Green. Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you very much. 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.120 So I'm a little bit of a physics nerd, and 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:03.400 I've been really looking forward to having this conversation. And 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:05.960 I want to start with a quote of yours, which 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:09.800 is the universe is rich and exciting, and there's stuff 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.200 that can knock you over every day if you're privy 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.040 to it. Tell us about that. Well, I think that's 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:19.520 absolutely case. You know, we love going to say the movies, right, 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.639 to see some Hollywood film that usually comes out of 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.000 some screenwriter's imagination. But oftentimes I sit and watch those 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.120 things and I do enjoy them. But when I step 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:33.119 out of the theater, I recognize that the true way 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.640 the world is put together, quantum mechanics, relativity, all of 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:41.000 that stuff is so much more creative and so much 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:44.400 more mind blowing than anything that usually we make up. 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.520 So I always lament the fact that there's so many 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.840 people that just don't realize that. So let's talk a 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.920 little bit about quantum mechanics and general relativity. For a 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.640 long time, the physics descriptors of the very large and 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.760 the very small seem to be I don't know if 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.400 incompatible is the right word, but but certainly inconsistent with 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:11.320 one perspective of seeing the universe. What what was the 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.360 cause of that underlying tension? Well, you're absolutely right. So 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.479 there are these two major discoveries that happened in the 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.760 twentieth century. One, as you mentioned, is general relativity. It's 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.000 relevant really for the big stuff in the universe, stars, galaxies, 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.239 the whole universe. It's a theory of gravity, and gravity 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.719 matters when things are big. The other main development is 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.400 quantum physics, and that does a fantastic job at describing 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.560 the universe in the other end of the spectrum, the 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.840 small stuff, molecules, atoms, subatomic particles, and each of these 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.239 two theories they are found in a completely different ideas. 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.640 They approached the universe in completely different ways. And when 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.960 you try to take the equations of these two descriptions 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.200 and meld them together into one unified hole, which is 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.640 what Albert Einstein wanted to do, really you find that 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:00.560 the equations don't work together. They're these ferocious antagonists every 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.240 time we do a calculation, get a nonsensical result. And 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.240 for decades we've known that that's a real problem, a 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.800 real puzzle. So let's talk a little bit about Albert 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.560 Einstar and he really spent the latter part of his 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:18.279 professional life trying to find that grand unified theory was 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.800 heat early? Did the technological tools simply not exist to 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.640 give him the building blocks to figure it out? Well. 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.400 Some would even say that we're still too early today. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.920 You know, we're struggling to do exactly what Einstein was 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.240 trying to do century later, a century later, and I 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.279 I would say we have made great progress, but we 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.000 still don't know if any of the ideas that we 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.400 have come up with are actually correct on paper. They're 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.280 interesting on paper, they seem to work, but we've been 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.600 unable to test any of these theories as yet because 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.720 our technology is so far behind where our theoretical developments 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.599 have taken us. So was Einstein too early? He was 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.039 deaf only earlier than we and we may be too 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.040 early ourselves. So it could still be the case that 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.360 the unified theory maybe a century off. I don't know, so, 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.719 so let's talk a little bit about Newtonian physics. When 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.479 Isaac Newton wrote out his Laws of the Movement of 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.800 the heavenly Bodies, which are still very accurate to this day, 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:25.800 he envisioned a universe where time and space was rigid. 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.560 And then we look fast forward to Einstein and he 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:34.119 has a much more flexible and dynamic description of time 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.080 and space. What is the next evolution gonna look like? 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.040 I wish I could tell you. If I knew the answer, 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.200 I'd be in my office right now writing it up 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.880 into some spectacular PAPERM can make some guesses. I think 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:50.680 the next big discovery is going to change our understanding 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.400 of what space is and what time is again the 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.760 way Einstein changed our understanding from Newton. Well, yeah, that's right. 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.080 So what Einstein really did exactly as you describe it. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.440 He added newfound flexibility to space and time. Newton space 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.160 and times just an arena stage. They don't participate in 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.640 the unfolding of the cosmos. They're just there. I says, no, no, no, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.840 they're not just there. They do something. They warp and 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:17.400 they curve in the service of communicating the force of gravity, spectacular, 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:22.080 new idea, radical, But none of those questions, none of 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.480 those developments give us insight into what space is made 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.560 of or what time is made of. Could it be 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:33.080 the space and time are made of smaller, more fundamental entities, 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.920 just like any piece of matter. We know it's made 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.720 of molecules, made of atoms, made of sub atomic particles. 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.320 That's been the progression over the course of many decades 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.240 to figure that story out. Maybe space and time themselves 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.960 have fundamental constituents, and if we could identify what they 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.560 are and how they behave and find the mathematical equations 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.360 to describe them, that to me would be the next revolution. 0:07:55.720 --> 0:08:00.400 So for a long time, the smallest um article we 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.560 understood was the molecule, and then it became the atom, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:08.880 and then protons, neutrons, quarkscluons, etcetera. Is it a never 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:13.960 ending progression to ever smaller components or can we eventually 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:16.920 find hey, that's as small as it gets, that's the 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.240 fundamental building block of the entire universe and everything in it. 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.040 So nobody knows. It's a real good question. It's a 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.360 real tough question because it's always difficult to rule out 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.720 the existence of something beyond the reach of your equations 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.320 or beyond the reach of your technology. But personally, my 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.440 own feeling, based on the progression of physics is I 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.600 think that there is gonna come an end. There's gonna 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.800 come a point where we absolutely identify the fundamental ingredients, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.160 and we absolutely identify the fundamental forces, and we identify 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.679 the equations that describe them. I believe that that chapter 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.720 will come to an end. There was another department, or 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:55.360 I don't know if this is the same department. The 0:08:55.440 --> 0:09:00.160 Institute for String Cosmology and astro Particle Physics is a 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.959 separate research facility. Yeah, that's a subset of the Center 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.760 of Theoretical Physics that focuses more on the developments of 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.920 string theory and its applications to cosmology. So, so let's 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:12.960 talk a little bit about that. You're best known for 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.240 your work on string theory. My understanding of string theory, uh, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.320 lay person as it may be is atoms are made 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.400 up of protons, neutrons, electrons, which are broken down to quarks, 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.080 which are broken down to gluons and muons and so 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.319 on and so forth. If you take that down to 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.120 its smallest constituent, you end up at a different level 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:37.200 where the smallest component are vibrating loops of energy, and 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:41.000 how they vibrate really determines what their characteristics is. That 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.480 is that a fair description is a fair description. The 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.440 one thing I would immediately underscore is everything that you 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:51.319 said prior to mentioning strings is physics that we understand 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.320 and has been tested and we're certain about. When you 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.920 then take the next leap to string theory, you're going 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:02.120 into domain that is not yet tested. So that really 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:06.400 is speculation that comes out of decades of mathematics that 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:10.120 has given us some confidence that these ideas may be correct, 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.640 but they have not yet been tested. So so that's 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.559 a fascinating statement. One of the things that I've read 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:21.440 other physicists say is that, well, we haven't proven string theory, 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.760 but the math is so nearly perfect that there has 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.880 to be something to it. It's not merely a coincidence. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.880 Explain that, well, I would say, that's a nutty thing 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.240 to say, yeah, because there's a lot of beautiful math 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.640 in the world, and some of it's relevant to reality 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:40.400 and some of it's not, And the only way you 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.440 figure it out is by having observations and experiments. You 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:46.719 need to connect to reality. The flip side, there are 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.920 other folks who say this theory has been around for 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:51.920 thirty years. I mean, I've been working on this since 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.240 four Okay, so this theory has been around for more 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.800 than thirty years. You still haven't tested it, and therefore 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.959 it's time to move on. It's no longer doing science. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.960 That's also a nutty perspective because when you're talking about 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:09.439 the universe at such a deep level of existence, way 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:13.119 smaller than those little particles that you were describing the corks, 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.760 they're huge compared to the strings, and yet they're tiny 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.400 by everyday standards. We're talking about hundreds of millions of 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.319 times smaller than those particles. When you're talking about the 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.240 universe and such extreme realms, it's gonna take a while 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.920 to test it. So you don't just give up because 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.800 the technology hasn't caught up with you. You keep working 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.360 and you try to extract some more clever way that 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.400 you might test these ideas, perhaps using technology we have 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.800 today or in the next few years. So one of 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.720 the lines um one of the criticisms I've read about 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.120 string theory is if we can't test this, is this 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.439 really a science or is it a philosophy. That's right, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.480 So that that's the going line among the detractors of 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.520 that sort. And it would be philosophy. If it were 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:02.439 fundamentally impossible to ever these ideas, then you're not really 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.360 doing science. But that's not the case at all, I 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:09.040 and are my colleague. We can write down predictions that 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.000 in principle you could test if you had a big 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.840 enough accelerator, and and didn't. We see Einstein making certain 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.840 predictions about things that would happen that only recently were 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:23.280 proven by the gravitational wave detective and things life. A 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.760 hundred years ago he made a prediction of these ripples 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.120 in the fabric of space gravitation waves. And you're right, 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.520 it took a hundred years, almost to the day to 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.440 to test that prediction. Now what mitigates that somewhat is 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.880 there's an earlier prediction that was confirmed in just four years. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.880 So in nineteen nine, observations of the distant stars during 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.680 a solar eclipse confirmed Einstein's prediction that light should be 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:51.880 bent as it goes by the surface of the Sun. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:57.160 So the detractors will say, come on, Einstein's ideas respectacular 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.199 and deep, and it only took four years to confirm them. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:02.240 You guys have been going for thirty years and you 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.920 haven't got anything yet. And what I'd say is we've 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.920 jumped so far beyond technology, so far beyond what we 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.080 can see, and that makes it much more difficult to 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.840 test these ideas. Well. He also had the advantage of 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.440 working with gravity, and there's all sorts of things that 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.560 you can look at to perform mathematical tests and experiment. 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.600 That's the point when we're talking about sub sub sub 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.000 atomic particles really where there's only so much we can 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.959 do these days. That's exactly right. So that my favorite 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.520 thing about UM. One of the things that prove Einsteini 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.760 in um relativity is that when we have various satellites 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.559 and space that are used for things like GPS, we 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.040 have to adjust because they're going so much faster than 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.480 we are and they experienced time relatively compared to us, 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.080 that there's a small mathematical adjustment that has to be 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.640 made so your GPS is accurates, right, And if you 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.240 didn't do that, both for the motion of the satellites 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.160 but also for the fact they experienced from gravitational field 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.200 that we do, they're higher up there, further from the 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.960 Earth center, at the gravity there is weaker. Those two 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.400 effects change the rate at which clocks tick off time 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.320 in that satellite, and that's an objective clock, not not 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.280 a subjective human thing. If you didn't take into account, 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.880 GPS would be inaccurate within a day. In fact, this 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:19.680 is a piece of physics that you may have seen 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.560 in the film Interstellar. I haven't seen it yet, but 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.640 it's This is not a spoiler, but in that film, 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.520 the protagonist goes near a black hole and time elapses 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.880 more slowly near a black hole for exactly because of gravity. 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:36.680 And then when they come back away from the black hole, 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.360 they have an aged much at all, but their colleague 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.320 on the mothership that was far away has aged decades. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.920 So there you see a dramatic version of what the 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.440 GPS needs to account for. So when you watch a 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.760 science fiction film like that, do you walk out shaking 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:53.920 your head and saying, oh, they got the science wrong? 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.800 Or is Hollywood doing a better job being a little 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.120 more accurate these days? I think they're They're pretty accurate 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.800 in to some ext end that that film itself has 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.440 moments where I didn't quite know what science they had 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.440 in mind. But my view is if I go to 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.960 a film and they don't break their own rules, if 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.880 they're self consistent, even if they differ from the rules 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.760 of reality as we understand, that's fine with me. I 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.600 just want a good story and not something where they 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.640 get lazy. They get lazy at the end and do something. 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:23.720 Come on, you know that sort of thing. So let 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.040 let me get a little technical with you. You are 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:32.320 credited with code discovering mirror symmetry and spatial topology change. 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.320 What is that, well, spatial topology change is the easier 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.560 one to describe. One of the lessons from Einstein that 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.600 you indicated already is that space is flexible. Newton didn't 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.200 think that, which means not only can space bend and 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.600 warmp it can stretch. And that's what we mean by 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.280 the expanding universe. But in Einstein's meaning that it's not 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.800 just that the galaxies are separating, it's that the fabric 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.560 of space and they're on is moving as exactly as 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.680 if they're kind of stitched into the fabric of space 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:04.320 and like expanding, like it's all stretching. Now, in Einstein's 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.360 theory generalativity, space can stretch, but it cannot rip, the 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.440 spandex or the likera can't tear. But we found in 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.000 string theory, when you go beyond Einstein to include quantum effects, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.760 the fabrica space can rip, it can tear, and that 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.000 way can then repair itself and fundamentally change its shape, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.280 which we call a change of topology. That's the technical name, 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.280 but it's just a change of shape that Einstein would 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.680 not have thought possible. That string theory, if it's correct, 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:36.400 allows the universe to undergo. He is also the founder 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.040 of the World Science Festival, which is about to launch 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.840 its tenth edition in New York City later this year 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:48.040 May thirty, June four. Tell us about the festival. Yeah, 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.920 so this is an event that I co founded with 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:55.720 Tracy Day, journalist broadcast journalists and about you know, eleven 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.120 twelve years ago, we looked at the state of the 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:03.840 world and said, look, we celebrate fashion, books, theater, literature, right, 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.560 why don't we celebrate big public celebrations of science, which 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.800 is a vital part of how the world is put 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.920 together and how we're gonna live going forward into the future. 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.719 So back in two thousand and eight, we founded this 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.240 first edition of the World Science Festival. Here in New 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.679 York City. Over a hundred and twenty two thousand people 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.639 came out to the five days of public programming, so 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.000 it was clear that there was this pent up desire 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.920 to go someplace and experience cutting out science in a 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.040 way that you could get it, that you wouldn't find it, 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.399 uh intimidating, you wouldn't have to study, you would just 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:40.840 be drawn along by these wonderful ideas. And we've been 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.680 doing it ever since, creating novel experience of a science 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.119 for the general public. You can be a novice, you 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:48.760 can be an expert, you can be young, you can 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.359 be old. There's something for everybody in the festival. What 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.840 do you hope the impact is going to be long term? Well, 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.800 the goal really, as articulated in our mission statement, is 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.199 we want people to feel that science has to be 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.760 part of their lives. That it's not something that can 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.280 be left to the scientists. It's not something that you 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:10.080 can leave to the science classroom. Science is not a subject. 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.439 It really is a perspective. It's a way of life. 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:14.560 It's a way of engaging in the world and being 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.959 able to figure out what's truth, what's not truth, what's fact, 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.080 what's not fact and be able to figure out how 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.159 we should take that information, make policy, and in that 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.840 way sculpt the future. What do you make of the 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:31.480 rise of anti science, be it the vaxers who believe 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:36.040 that basic vaccines cause autism, or the people who, despite 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:41.399 overwhelming evidence, either don't believe global warming is real or 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:45.040 don't believe mankind has a hand in its creation. What 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.760 what's the underlying basis? Well, I think there's a general 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:54.720 distrust of so called experts, a general distrust of of 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.840 the intelligencia, the folks that actually spend their lives thinking 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.720 about deep problems, how they affect the world and how 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:03.920 we're going to solve them. Is a deep distrust there, 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.359 and it's up to us, and I hope part of 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.760 the festival will do that, as well as other events 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.600 around the world, to break down the barrier where everybody 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.359 recognizes that they can get the ideas. It's not this 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:21.000 opaque collection of weird facts and theories that you'll never 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.480 be able to understand. You can get it, and when 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.679 you get it, it's thrilling and allows you to be 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:28.879 part of the process. And when you're part of the process, 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.919 you're less distrustful because you understand what's going on. What 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.320 we need to do to get kids more interested in 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.240 math and science. Well, that's a big, big question. And 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.760 of course the classroom is where most kids encounter these 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.159 ideas and looked, are many good teachers. So when I 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.880 say that somehow we need to improve the classroom out 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.720 talking about every teacher. But goodness, gracious, I can't tell 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.960 you the number of kids I've spoken to who think 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.760 science is simply about memorizing some facts and spitting them 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.240 back on an exam. And that's tragic. Science is a 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.040 journey of discovery that we have been on for thousands 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.880 of years and the things that we've figured out, from 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.000 insight into the origin of the universe, to the existence 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.399 of black holes, to the weirdness of time and relativity, 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.479 the strange features of quantum mechanics. When you teach this 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.400 stuff to a kid and they can get the basic ideas, 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.480 I've seen their eyes wide open, light up and say wow, 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:24.040 that science and say, yeah, that's what science is about. 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:25.720 You know, you and I are only a year or 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.040 two a part in age, and we're of the generation 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.400 where we use technology. But we've had to learn how 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.600 to use computers, internet software, programming, etcetera. The generation of 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:40.639 kids coming up, it's second nature's utensil. You give a 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.800 six month old an iPad and they've mastered it in 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.879 a couple of hours. What is that gonna do for 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:51.200 technology and science going forward? Does that give you hope that, oh, 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.520 these kids really appreciate technology and therefore sciences is right there. 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:57.960 I wish I could say yes, not necessarily at all, 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.040 because so many folks, so many kids are uses technology. 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.760 They don't care one whit about where it came from 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.040 or how it works. They just want to get on 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:10.760 to whatever, to Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, whatever. I see 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.600 my kids using these devices, and it makes my heart 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.720 hurt because because they could be using that time to 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.600 think about deep questions, and yet they're frittering away so 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.720 much time in these devices. However, we can use these 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.800 devices as an impetus to show kids, if we do 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.200 it right, how there is quantum physics inside of yourself 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:33.520 on yourself and wouldn't work without being able to direct 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.960 the motion of electrons through tiny microscopic integrated circuits. That's 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.399 interesting and exciting if presented in the right way. GPS, 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.520 like we were talking about, your phone has a GPS 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.560 capacity to it. It's got general relativity and something right 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.159 into it. I see the new Apple tagline now with 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.400 general built into it, will charge extra for that. Let's 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.120 talk a little bit about the creation of the universe. 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:02.159 I'm somewhat tickled by of the theory that nothingness is 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:07.320 inherently unstable and the universe just vomits into existence because 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:12.200 eventually nothingness just can't persist. Is that still the best 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:15.640 explanation we have for where the universe came from? It's 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.920 it's certainly one of the explanations, and it has not 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.120 really been fully worked out into a form that there's 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.920 a consensus in the community that we've got it by 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.840 any means. But it is fascinating to think, as you're saying, 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.880 because the deep question is why is there something rather 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.239 than nothing? That's what liveness asks right centuries ago, and 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:36.800 it's this deep question right when we say nothing, we 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.399 mean the absence of everything, even space and time. And 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:42.720 as you're saying, one of the ideas is, well, there 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.600 may have been an era when there truly was a 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:48.760 nothing with a capital end. But it may be that 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:52.880 that nothingness can't persist forever. It may be that Nothingness 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.879