Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the whitetail woods presented by first Light, creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Speaker 1: Go farther, stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Kyle Perry of Dreamland Wildlife
Speaker 2: Properties to answer your habitat management questions. Welcome back to
Speaker 2: the Wired Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light
Speaker 2: and their Camera for Conservation Initiative which supports the National
Speaker 2: Deer Association, and today we are talking habitat management. We
Speaker 2: are continuing the habitat series this month and my guest
Speaker 2: today is Kyle Perrying. Kyle runs a habitat management consulting
Speaker 2: and contracting company in which he and a Kylie go
Speaker 2: all over the country helping folks implement their habitat management goals.
Speaker 2: He does all sorts of on the ground projects. He's
Speaker 2: not just a guy that gives you ideas. He actually
Speaker 2: gets out there and does the work. So he brings
Speaker 2: a lot of firsthand practitioner experience to the table. And
Speaker 2: I met Kyle first a handful of years ago. I
Speaker 2: think when he was starting to help out over on
Speaker 2: the Back forty property, which hopefully most of you know about.
Speaker 2: Kyle's continued to help with the continued management of the
Speaker 2: Back forty doing projects out there, and also helped me
Speaker 2: this past season with a pretty substantial habitat improvement project
Speaker 2: at my family deer camp. So today Kyle is joining
Speaker 2: me to first walk through some of those things that
Speaker 2: we did there up at my camp, Ken Roven talk
Speaker 2: through what he thought of the property, what we accomplished,
Speaker 2: what we still could accomplish in the future, some things
Speaker 2: that think about moving forward, and then the lion's share
Speaker 2: of our conversation today is spent answering listener questions. I
Speaker 2: set out a request for questions from you on what
Speaker 2: kinds of things you're wondering about when it comes to
Speaker 2: managing and improving habitat for deer hunting and for wildlife
Speaker 2: and all that kind of good stuff. So we got
Speaker 2: a lot of great questions to cover. We tackle a
Speaker 2: number of things around working with small properties. We tackle
Speaker 2: some questions related to how to get started down that
Speaker 2: road if you just picked up a property, or if
Speaker 2: you've just decided that you want to start trying to
Speaker 2: work the land, you know, how do you prioritize what
Speaker 2: to do first? How do you start tackling that. We
Speaker 2: talk through a good amount about natives versus invasive or
Speaker 2: non native plants, and why you might want to consider
Speaker 2: focusing on the former rather than the latter. We talk
Speaker 2: about ways to convert old fields or even yards into
Speaker 2: wildlife habitat, and a whole lot more So that's the
Speaker 2: plan for today. Kyle's a good guy. He's an up
Speaker 2: and comer in this space. I think he's got a
Speaker 2: bright future ahead of him, and I appreciate the perspective
Speaker 2: and the ideas he brought to our conversation today. So
Speaker 2: but that, I'll said, let's get to my chat with
Speaker 2: Kyle Perry. All right with me now on the line,
Speaker 2: I've got Kyle Perry. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Kyle, thank you, Mark, pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, I'm glad you can make it. I'm glad
Speaker 2: we're doing this. We've been talking about a podcast together
Speaker 2: for I don't know, around a year now, so I'm
Speaker 2: glad it's come together. Every time I talk to you, though,
Speaker 2: you are usually surrounded by like loud like equipment sounds,
Speaker 2: or like trees falling down around you, or I hear
Speaker 2: the wind in the background blowing through trees. I've never
Speaker 2: once talked to you in a situation where it's quiet
Speaker 2: and you're in an office, So this is a rare occurrence. Man,
Speaker 2: I didn't know that you. I didn't know that you
Speaker 2: ever spent time inside.
Speaker 3: I generally don't like to. I really truly enjoy being
Speaker 3: in the outdoors and learning about all the wildlife and
Speaker 3: habitat improvements we can do. So I'm always out there
Speaker 3: in the woods, you know, or in the in the field.
Speaker 3: I truly do enjoy that. The office is not my
Speaker 3: happy place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, well, I appreciate you you stepping inside the
Speaker 2: studio for a quick second to do this conversation. But
Speaker 2: what have you guys been up to this week? If
Speaker 2: you weren't in here, sitting in the office talking with me,
Speaker 2: what would you beat up to right now?
Speaker 3: Well, if mother nature would cooperate, we'd be out for
Speaker 3: schrom altering right now, clearing out some invasive species throughout
Speaker 3: a prairie. It's a project where the property is currently
Speaker 3: enrolled in a CRP program with the NRCS, so we
Speaker 3: can removing autumnaive and honeysuckle and some multi floor rows
Speaker 3: out there with the foresch malt getting that prepared for
Speaker 3: prescribed burn in the spring.
Speaker 2: Nice? Is that kind of stuff? Well, I guess let
Speaker 2: me take a step back. You work on so many
Speaker 2: different types of work. There's a lot of guys I
Speaker 2: talk to in the Habitat space that that operate primarily
Speaker 2: as consultants. You know, they walk around and they tell people, Hey,
Speaker 2: you should do this, Hey should do this. What I
Speaker 2: found a little bit unique with you is that you're
Speaker 2: very much a practitioner. You're not just consulting. It seems
Speaker 2: like you are out in the field doing all the time.
Speaker 2: You are constantly out there doing the work, seeing the results,
Speaker 2: putting things on the landscape, and then you know, actually
Speaker 2: being able to say, okay, we did this, this and this,
Speaker 2: what were the results of that. Can you run me
Speaker 2: down all the different types of projects and work that
Speaker 2: you in a given year might be tackling, because it's
Speaker 2: not just like I go out and plants some food plots,
Speaker 2: like you are doing a lot of different things.
Speaker 3: Yes, how long do we have to record the podcast?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, give me this in five minutes or less five.
Speaker 3: Minutes, so we do. We cover a lot of applications.
Speaker 3: We do see orp establishment, so native prairies, grasses and forbes.
Speaker 3: We do timber stand improvement work, will work go through
Speaker 3: and mark with a forest or the different tree species
Speaker 3: that need to be removed to ensure a healthy forest
Speaker 3: long term. We do facilitate timber harvest. We're kind of
Speaker 3: where the media the guy in between ensuring that the
Speaker 3: timber buyer is there doing the work that he says
Speaker 3: he's going to do on site there with him making
Speaker 3: sure the right trees are getting taken and that the
Speaker 3: landowners getting the true value out of his timber. We
Speaker 3: work closely with US Fish and Wildlife doing wetland restoration
Speaker 3: and establishment work and facilitate prescribed burns. We do a
Speaker 3: lot of prescribed burns, generally in the spring because most
Speaker 3: of our work is for outdoorsmen that are hunting in
Speaker 3: the fall, so we don't generally do too many burns
Speaker 3: in the fall. But we also offer food plot services,
Speaker 3: so we also cover a lot of ecosystem restoration projects
Speaker 3: where we're working with a landowner that you know he
Speaker 3: wants to put in a trail system throughout the property.
Speaker 3: Create a clearing or an opening for creating early successional growth.
Speaker 3: We run a lot of different applications to just ultimately
Speaker 3: create that dream land that the landowners and inspired about.
Speaker 2: What of all that is your favorite? If you had
Speaker 2: to pick one of these types of things that you
Speaker 2: just enjoy doing out there, what do you think that'd be?
Speaker 3: My favorite is mulching invasive species. It's a way where
Speaker 3: you're inside a cab, you know, generally in the heater
Speaker 3: ac it's relaxing, I can talk on the phone and
Speaker 3: take care of invasive species at the same time. It's
Speaker 3: pretty profitable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty good setup. Well, I definitely want
Speaker 2: to talk more about the invasive species thing we've got.
Speaker 2: We've got some listener questions surrounding that, and as you know,
Speaker 2: one of the things we're going to do here today
Speaker 2: is tackle a whole sew of questions that we got
Speaker 2: from folks who've got their own challenges, their own problems,
Speaker 2: their own situations, and they're looking for our insights. So
Speaker 2: one of those things is invasives. There's some questions around
Speaker 2: honeysuckle in particular, which you mentioned. There's some questions around
Speaker 2: why native like why don't we want invasives out there.
Speaker 2: So I'm glad you brought that up, and I'm glad
Speaker 2: that's something you enjoyed dealing with because a lot of
Speaker 2: people have questions about that. Before we get to that, though,
Speaker 2: I wanted to take a little time here to talk about,
Speaker 2: you know, the intersection of your work, the stuff you
Speaker 2: just described that you do, and my stuff, which came together.
Speaker 2: It's coming together in two different ways. One, you've volunteered
Speaker 2: and helped out a whole bunch over on the back
Speaker 2: forty and have done a lot of work there on
Speaker 2: the property since I have, since we gave it to
Speaker 2: the National Deer Association. So I want to publicly thank
Speaker 2: you for the work you've done over there helping remove
Speaker 2: invasive species. I know you've helped with the food plot planting.
Speaker 2: Have you guys drilled grassed? Have you been on the
Speaker 2: drill helping them with switchgrass or do they just frost
Speaker 2: seed switchgrass?
Speaker 3: No, we did in the spring I think twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: Somewhere in there. The years fly by when you're having
Speaker 3: fun somewhere, I believe in the spring of twenty twenty
Speaker 3: two we interceded switch grass with the Great Planes drill
Speaker 3: throughout the prairie.
Speaker 2: Okay, nice, So you did switch you did work on
Speaker 2: the honey Hole prairie restoration unit there. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 2: pretty pretty awesome spot. And then the food plots, And
Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, man, I went back there and
Speaker 2: helped mentor hunters last fall again and got to see it,
Speaker 2: and it is just so night and day compared to
Speaker 2: when I started there in twenty nineteen, I guess it
Speaker 2: would have been was our first year. It is transformed.
Speaker 2: It's really incredible. There was almost half of the farm
Speaker 2: when we started that was like a wildlife desert. It
Speaker 2: was just very thin, weedy, invasive stuff that was provided,
Speaker 2: no food, no cover. It was just like desolate and
Speaker 2: now there's nothing like that. Every inch of that property
Speaker 2: is wildlife habitat. It is quality cover. There's so much diversity.
Speaker 2: There's the grass is the food plots, there's trees, there's
Speaker 2: native prairie. There's still some invasives because that property was
Speaker 2: full of them, but there's much larger sections where that's
Speaker 2: been improved upon. It it's just exciting to see. So
Speaker 2: kudos to you for helping out there and doing some
Speaker 2: good stuff. And you're like the equipment and the skill
Speaker 2: you bring to the table helps so much to go
Speaker 2: from like what one of us could do with our
Speaker 2: hands and a shovel versus what you can do with
Speaker 2: a skid steer or a forestry malt or a drill.
Speaker 2: And I definitely saw that in the second place that
Speaker 2: we work together, which was up at my family deer
Speaker 2: camp place we call ken Roven. Last year, you join
Speaker 2: me up at the family cabin in the I don't know,
Speaker 2: February or March timeframe. I think it was maybe April,
Speaker 2: I don't know, somewhere in that ballpark and April.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we were up there and I had some
Speaker 2: goals that I had talked to you about, mostly being
Speaker 2: the fact that we have this forty acre property which
Speaker 2: was mostly all timbered. Now there used to be old
Speaker 2: fields scattered with some timber, some young forests, and then
Speaker 2: some swamp and over the last you know, thirty some
Speaker 2: years that my family's had the property, it's almost entirely
Speaker 2: now mature forest. And so a handful of years ago
Speaker 2: we started trying to chip away at that a little
Speaker 2: bit and create a couple of little openings. But we
Speaker 2: were doing this by hand. Me and my dad don't
Speaker 2: have a lot of experience of that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: trying to fall big trees or anything like that, so
Speaker 2: it was limited what we were able to achieve. And
Speaker 2: so I reached out to you and said, hey, man,
Speaker 2: I'm wanting to take this to the next level. You
Speaker 2: guys seem to have that kind of experience. Can you
Speaker 2: come and help me do that? Create some big openings,
Speaker 2: expanded food plots, maybe create some wildlife openings, or some
Speaker 2: new betting habitat, different things like that. And so I
Speaker 2: had a general idea of what I thought I wanted
Speaker 2: you and I talked about that ahead of time, and
Speaker 2: then we met up there at the property together, walked it,
Speaker 2: talked through all these things, showed you the landscape, and
Speaker 2: then said, hey, can you do it? Or what can
Speaker 2: you do?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 2: Can you walk me through from your perspective, A like
Speaker 2: your assessment of the property after I showed it to you,
Speaker 2: after you looked at the maps, after you looked at it,
Speaker 2: what did you think was needed? And then b can
Speaker 2: you talk me through and talk to everyone listening through
Speaker 2: you know what you were able to do and what
Speaker 2: you thought about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we drove in. We started at the beginning
Speaker 3: part of the property. Again, I thank you for the
Speaker 3: opportunity to work with you and your dad on the
Speaker 3: property up north, very special opportunity. Initially when I when
Speaker 3: I drove in there, I was kind of looking at
Speaker 3: the access. Access is very key when evaluating a property.
Speaker 3: Especially up north, you have a lot of surrounding forests,
Speaker 3: so it makes it kind of an even playing field
Speaker 3: when it comes to the ecosystem. You know, down south
Speaker 3: we have the fence rows and prairies and a little
Speaker 3: more diverse habitat. So first off I was looking at access.
Speaker 3: We walked down the southern part of the property border
Speaker 3: I believe, kind of got into an area of big,
Speaker 3: big conifers, very wide open. You could see for approximately
Speaker 3: probably one hundred to one hundred and fifty yards through
Speaker 3: the through the timber there. So initially my thought was
Speaker 3: creating some early successional pockets that coincide with betting for
Speaker 3: deer and also areas for grouse. I thought that was
Speaker 3: a key important part of the establishment of the property there,
Speaker 3: So looking at early successional creating some train systems for access.
Speaker 3: I was listening to you and your dad kind of
Speaker 3: talk about how you hunted the property previously. What you
Speaker 3: wanted to do moving forward while we had the equipment
Speaker 3: there was to accomplish those tasks. So overall I thought
Speaker 3: the property is very cool. It offered some unique diversity.
Speaker 3: My favorite part was how the clearing was right in
Speaker 3: the center part of the property, so to access from
Speaker 3: different winds was excellent. You could come in there from
Speaker 3: a southwest wind prevailing winds, get in there on the
Speaker 3: property from the north side there and hunt that real easily.
Speaker 3: So walking through there, we kind of looked at trail systems.
Speaker 3: We identified a key area to open up, like a
Speaker 3: wildlife corridor, which coincided with the pockets that we put
Speaker 3: into getting lost in the direction up there. I think
Speaker 3: the clearing was to our east where we established those
Speaker 3: early successional areas, and then we opened up that wildlife
Speaker 3: corridor for a supplemental food source for the food plot.
Speaker 3: That then tied into a big open field that you
Speaker 3: and your dad had already started clearing, approximately a quarter acre.
Speaker 3: I think we mapped out on using on X maps there,
Speaker 3: So walking through there, I knew that needed to be expanded.
Speaker 3: I felt that the property was somewhat lacking supplemental food
Speaker 3: sources like a good, good, established food plot. So immediately
Speaker 3: are you and I talked about that. I expressed my
Speaker 3: importance of clearing that out and making it a little
Speaker 3: bit bigger. So we we went ahead and outlined that
Speaker 3: and started clearing the area, cutting the larger trees down,
Speaker 3: the non desirables, leaving behind the oaks or scrapes and
Speaker 3: regeneration of hardwoods, and took the brush and what was
Speaker 3: left over from the forest malt and kind of pushed
Speaker 3: it around the edge and created some pockets for you know,
Speaker 3: rabbits and other nesting species. Then we walked across my
Speaker 3: favorite part of the property that the bridge, the bridge
Speaker 3: that leads the cabin. So we didn't really do too
Speaker 3: much over there. I think we ran out of time,
Speaker 3: but that helped me kind of tie the whole big
Speaker 3: picture together of the access from the north part of
Speaker 3: the property coming in from the east edge. So that
Speaker 3: really helped kind of put the you know, tie everything
Speaker 3: together and understand how do we improve this property and
Speaker 3: make it better for you and your dad for accessibility
Speaker 3: and overall use.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it it was amazing what you were able
Speaker 2: to get done in two days compared to what we
Speaker 2: had done in years of dabbling with things. I mean
Speaker 2: you and I think your brother was helping. Yes, you
Speaker 2: guys are good with the chainsaw, you're good with the
Speaker 2: good with the forestry multure. And man, I mean you
Speaker 2: took what was like an eighth acre a quarter acre,
Speaker 2: a little opening I had, and expanded it to almost
Speaker 2: an acre. You create another like eighth acre ish maybe
Speaker 2: a little bit bigger plot in the middle of the timber.
Speaker 2: You created three or four more of these kind of
Speaker 2: pockets where we cut down a bunch of trees, left
Speaker 2: tree tops down, which I'm hoping is going to lead
Speaker 2: to more early successional you know, growth happening there now,
Speaker 2: because what you know, it used to be, like you said,
Speaker 2: this wide open mature conifer stand that was just like
Speaker 2: a wildlife desert. Nothing hardly passed through there, nothing spent
Speaker 2: time in there. Now you've got three or four of
Speaker 2: these thick pockets where their sunlight get into the ground.
Speaker 2: And then you have that internal food plot too, like
Speaker 2: you talked about with pushing all the brush to the side,
Speaker 2: creating brush piles, but then also kind of tree top
Speaker 2: barriers along edges of the food plot too that you know,
Speaker 2: when my dad and I started looking at that. After
Speaker 2: you guys were all done, we started, you know, and
Speaker 2: you and I talked about this too, like how do
Speaker 2: we strategically use these to set up hunting locations, And
Speaker 2: so that's what we did. We came in there and
Speaker 2: we put two really nice groundblines for my dad on
Speaker 2: either side of that main food plot system, one of
Speaker 2: the south side, one on the north side, so that,
Speaker 2: you know, if we had a southerly type wing, you know,
Speaker 2: southwest west, southwest, something like that, he could hunt the
Speaker 2: one and then flip side. If we got like a
Speaker 2: northwest north northeast anything like that, you could hunt the
Speaker 2: other one, and had really good access routes playing to
Speaker 2: both of those. With all that downtree cover, we're able
Speaker 2: to kind of push these blinds into that thicket created
Speaker 2: by these barriers and just perfectly hid the ground blinds
Speaker 2: in there. And then there's no way the deer would
Speaker 2: be at least not close to the line getting down
Speaker 2: wind because they'd have to go way around these barriers.
Speaker 2: So it looks great. We came in there after you
Speaker 2: left and my first top seeded rye to try to
Speaker 2: get something started in the spring, and then I came
Speaker 2: back in the fall or not fall, late summer, I guess,
Speaker 2: and broadcast kind of a blend of grains and brasicas
Speaker 2: and clover and a whole different series of things, and
Speaker 2: that came in pretty decent, not perfect, but decent. We
Speaker 2: did a little more top seeding of rye in September,
Speaker 2: I think, but surprisingly the small food plot deep in
Speaker 2: the timber maybe did the best. That thing came in
Speaker 2: really nicely, which we were a little worried about with
Speaker 2: sunlight or not. But you did position it so that
Speaker 2: it was running north south so you'd get as much
Speaker 2: possible sun as you could coming in there through the south,
Speaker 2: and that worked. So that ended up being pretty lush
Speaker 2: green carpet inside the timber, and it was tight to
Speaker 2: the neighbors there where the neighbor had done a clear
Speaker 2: cut maybe five to eight years ago, maybe maybe seven
Speaker 2: to ten years something like that, and so the neighbors
Speaker 2: got really nice early successional habitat on their place. So
Speaker 2: there's a lot of deer spending time in there, and
Speaker 2: so we ended up seeing a lot of deer coming
Speaker 2: out of there and hitting our little food plot. And
Speaker 2: so the grand reveal a lot of folks have wondered,
Speaker 2: you know, how do things go? How did the work
Speaker 2: translate into deer activity into hunting success, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: I've got a film coming out this fall that breaks
Speaker 2: down how my dad's hunt, the two of us, how
Speaker 2: that went. I won't tell you guys the specifics of
Speaker 2: that yet, but I will tell you that we had
Speaker 2: better deer activity on trail camera than ever before by far.
Speaker 2: I do think that some of the jets, like the
Speaker 2: deer number went down a little bit earlier than I
Speaker 2: would have hoped. And I attribute that to just the
Speaker 2: food plot quality just wasn't you know what it needs
Speaker 2: to be. I've got to keep on working on improving
Speaker 2: that soil quality. And I do think that, you know,
Speaker 2: the thing that came in the best was rye, and
Speaker 2: so we had a lot of rye and that was
Speaker 2: super attractive early. But then I think as that matured, right,
Speaker 2: it becomes a little bit less attractive later in the season. Yes,
Speaker 2: and so I'm I'm going to be rethinking or just
Speaker 2: thinking about how I can improve what we're planting this
Speaker 2: coming year. But all that said, with the new pockets,
Speaker 2: with a larger food plot, with a second food plot,
Speaker 2: I bet you we had at least four bucks on camera. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: at least four bucks, and not just bucks, I'm set
Speaker 2: what I'm at least four bucks that were three or older,
Speaker 2: maybe four or older. I mean, we've never had mature
Speaker 2: bucks like that. We have made, like since we did
Speaker 2: the first little food plot, we would get like one
Speaker 2: nice bucket year, maybe they pass through in the fall.
Speaker 2: This year there was four and there were two. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think there's four bucks that were probably four or older,
Speaker 2: and two of them were absolute gaggers. I mean two
Speaker 2: bucks that I would be thrilled to shoot down in
Speaker 2: southern Michigan, like one hundred and thirty inch one hundred
Speaker 2: and forty inch type bucks, like really nice year. So
Speaker 2: there were a lot of bucks in the area passing
Speaker 2: through in that pre rut to rut time frame. They
Speaker 2: stuck around, they continued to visit it consistently. I'll give
Speaker 2: you I'll tell you one thing. Well, no I won't.
Speaker 2: I'll save the specifics of buck stuff for the film,
Speaker 2: I suppose. But in short, we saw progress. It was
Speaker 2: exciting and I'm excited about that. But all that said,
Speaker 2: there seems like there's so much more to do, like
Speaker 2: I want to continue to improve it. So with all
Speaker 2: that said, and with what you saw there, what would
Speaker 2: be like one or two things you would recommend I
Speaker 2: think about moving forward as far as next steps or
Speaker 2: the next project to work on, or the next thing
Speaker 2: to improve given what you saw.
Speaker 3: The next thing that we didn't get to really touch
Speaker 3: on too much was that creek that runs to the
Speaker 3: north of the food plot. I kind of I believe
Speaker 3: it runs on a I'm going off memory, it's been
Speaker 3: been a year now almost. I believe that runs northwest
Speaker 3: to southeast.
Speaker 2: If I'm mostly most mostly east west east west.
Speaker 3: I think we we kind of touched on while we
Speaker 3: were there the first time of creating some some travel
Speaker 3: corridors through there and enhancing, you know, some of those
Speaker 3: areas along there to create some bedding and open pockets
Speaker 3: for for the wildlife. And that would be if it
Speaker 3: runs east west, that would be on the north side
Speaker 3: of that creek.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: I'm kind of just directly behind the cabin, YEP. So
Speaker 3: going in there doing some TSI trying to prove that's
Speaker 3: where I've seen or notice a lot of the hardwoods,
Speaker 3: So trying to enhance some of the regeneration of the
Speaker 3: hardwoods and and open those areas up for sunlight, sunlight
Speaker 3: and create more brows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the kind of place on the
Speaker 2: neighbors where they did that in the hardwoods that they
Speaker 2: have and it seemed to have made a difference. So
Speaker 2: so I could see that being useful on our side
Speaker 2: of the line on the north side.
Speaker 3: So definitely kind of playing the tape a little bit
Speaker 3: we had when we first walked into the property on
Speaker 3: the south side. We were we were talking about the neighbors,
Speaker 3: the early successional growth, and that's kind of how we
Speaker 3: came to the conclusion that we should tie in that
Speaker 3: trail system food plot running north and or yes, north
Speaker 3: and south, to connect that early succession to the movement
Speaker 3: of your new destination food plot.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad to hear that that all tied in
Speaker 3: real nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on its way. So that's exciting. So much
Speaker 2: to do though, so much, there's a lot to do.
Speaker 3: The best part about this is the work never ends.
Speaker 3: You keep coming up with new things, maintaining those trails,
Speaker 3: ensuring that those food plots are staying healthy, doing soil tests.
Speaker 3: I generally do those every year, depending on the soil type.
Speaker 3: You know, you could get away with every other year,
Speaker 3: but generally up north, I try to do one every
Speaker 3: year to kind of monitor that soil health and ensure
Speaker 3: a good, good, strong, healthy food plot.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, with that in mind, and with my wheels
Speaker 2: spinning as I'm thinking about what I need to be
Speaker 2: tackling next in the in the coming months, let's get
Speaker 2: to uh, let's get to the important stuff, which is
Speaker 2: answering the people's questions. So often I selfishly ask all
Speaker 2: the questions on these things, but every once in a
Speaker 2: while I remember hashat actually see what the listeners want
Speaker 2: to cover. So I thought that would be probably spend
Speaker 2: the rest of our time. I got a bunch of
Speaker 2: different questions from folks, so I want to get your
Speaker 2: perspective on some of this stuff. And then I thought
Speaker 2: I'd throw on my ideas as well. You know, I've
Speaker 2: got obviously not as much experience as you have, but
Speaker 2: I have experience as a land manager myself in several
Speaker 2: different places, and you know, can bring that side of
Speaker 2: things to the table. So so you down for that.
Speaker 3: I'm absolutely down for that answer questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first question is from a new landowner.
Speaker 2: He describes himself as a new overwhelmed landowner, and he
Speaker 2: just wants to know what our advice is for developing
Speaker 2: a priority list and figuring out where to start on
Speaker 2: a new property that you want to improve for wildlife
Speaker 2: and for hunting. What would be a couple of things
Speaker 2: you would recommend for someone who's just trying to start
Speaker 2: to prioritize, like how to get this thing started.
Speaker 3: So the first thing I would I generally prioritize is
Speaker 3: if he bought that property this year, I would I
Speaker 3: would at least hunt it for one year, kind of
Speaker 3: kind of do a lot of analysis, write down what
Speaker 3: you're seeing, where you're sitting, different wins that you hunted
Speaker 3: with in different areas. Just overall learn that property, spend
Speaker 3: time there in the off season, during the season, and
Speaker 3: just become a student of the property. Learn that that
Speaker 3: piece and analyze. I can't say that enough. Analyze and analyze, analyze,
Speaker 3: and then from there, you know, after that first year
Speaker 3: or maybe two years, depending on how much time you
Speaker 3: got to spend there, break down you know, all that
Speaker 3: knowledge that you collected, and create a game plan. My
Speaker 3: first thing I always look for is how do you
Speaker 3: access the property? Access is key to keep pressure off
Speaker 3: the wildlife.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's a great point. Another thing
Speaker 2: I'd be thinking about too, And I like your point
Speaker 2: about learning right, Like you don't need to rush into this.
Speaker 2: Let's just focus on like figuring out what's the what's
Speaker 2: our baseline, what are we starting with here? A really
Speaker 2: important part of that is to not just look at
Speaker 2: what's on your property, but also look what's in the neighborhood,
Speaker 2: so kind of zoom out and you know, literally you
Speaker 2: can zoom out by looking at an aerial map and
Speaker 2: zoom out, or you know, just drive around the neighborhood,
Speaker 2: or when you're hunting your place or when you're out
Speaker 2: exploring your place, you know, look at what's on the
Speaker 2: neighbors What are they doing over there? What do they have?
Speaker 2: Look on your map, see what kind of habitat is
Speaker 2: over there? Drive around the back roads, watch, you know,
Speaker 2: as you drive by and see, okay, what kind of
Speaker 2: habitats here? Is there? Lots and lots of food? Is
Speaker 2: there lots and lots of cover? Is there water around anywhere?
Speaker 2: Is there you know, anything that's that's operating as a
Speaker 2: sanctuary or is everything getting hunted by all my neighbors
Speaker 2: try to figure out, like what's the what's the whole, like,
Speaker 2: what's the what's the missing link, what's the rare thing
Speaker 2: around here. Yes, oftentimes, if you can figure out what
Speaker 2: is rare, what's missing, what's the thing that deer want
Speaker 2: that's not readily available in the area, if you focus
Speaker 2: there first, if you provide the thing that's missing everywhere else,
Speaker 2: you can start to have a disproportionately positive impact on
Speaker 2: your whole region. So, you know, example of that would
Speaker 2: be if you are in an area that's got tons
Speaker 2: and tons of agriculture. It's just like let's say it's
Speaker 2: like northern Ohio or something like that, where there's just
Speaker 2: lots of open farmland and you have let's say forty
Speaker 2: acres and you're thinking, well, you know, I want food
Speaker 2: plots and I want food and stuff, and so if
Speaker 2: you go that route, well you're kind of adding more
Speaker 2: of the same. But if you sit and you look
Speaker 2: at you see like all your neighbors are wide open
Speaker 2: farm fields, and you instead decide to add cover to
Speaker 2: your property, all of a sudden you become the only
Speaker 2: cover in town and that has a huge impact.
Speaker 3: Then.
Speaker 2: So that's that's one thing to think about. That's not
Speaker 2: all is the thing that you want to do first,
Speaker 2: but I think it's an important thing to think about,
Speaker 2: and that can help you set priorities. Those those kind
Speaker 2: of lowest holes in the bucket where the water's leaking on.
Speaker 2: If you think of like that metaphor, you got to
Speaker 2: plug that hole first before you can fill it up
Speaker 2: the rest of the way, And that's a that's a
Speaker 2: thing to be considering early on. I think another thing
Speaker 2: to your point of analysis, run trail cameras a lot
Speaker 2: to get a sense of what deer doing and how
Speaker 2: they're doing it. Do your soil tests like you talked about,
Speaker 2: even go out there with like your like the seek
Speaker 2: app or different things like that, and start identifying, like
Speaker 2: what are the plants here, What native species do I have?
Speaker 2: What invasive species do I have? Just start building that
Speaker 2: baseline understanding of what's here, and then you know that
Speaker 2: leads to the ability to the next year. Start saying, Okay,
Speaker 2: here's what I have, here's what I don't have, here's
Speaker 2: what's missing. These are my goals, and then you can
Speaker 2: have like an educated plan versus just willy nilly throwing
Speaker 2: darts at a wall.
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, a lot of guys you can you know,
Speaker 3: I've noticed they'll they'll want to everyone's excited. You buy
Speaker 3: that piece of property. You want to get out there.
Speaker 3: You want to start doing habitat work, and that is
Speaker 3: a big mistake in my opinion. You want to stay,
Speaker 3: you want to analyze learn that property. To talk on
Speaker 3: your point a little further is meet the neighbors. Maybe
Speaker 3: as you're driving around, meet those neighbors kind of see,
Speaker 3: you know, are they warm welcoming to talking and seeing
Speaker 3: how you guys could collaborate and maybe create connecting habitat
Speaker 3: between both parcels and work together. I think that's another
Speaker 3: key approach, is meeting the neighbors and trying to get
Speaker 3: on the same page. Because we always know that we
Speaker 3: buy forty acres and then the next forty acres comes
Speaker 3: up for sale, you want to buy that. So you're
Speaker 3: always trying to expand and go bigger, while capital could
Speaker 3: be a you know issue. So if you meet the neighbors,
Speaker 3: you can extend your property in a sense because you're
Speaker 3: working together and you're both creating better habits.
Speaker 2: Have Yeah, good point. There's another question from somebody else
Speaker 2: that's very closely related to this. They just asked about
Speaker 2: what some realistic first year goals could be. But if
Speaker 2: we're if we're if we're saying, like, hey, the first year,
Speaker 2: you might not want to do any real big projects.
Speaker 2: You just want to learn. So let's let's fast forward
Speaker 2: to now our first year of like actively doing stuff.
Speaker 2: We've had time to assess the situation, We've had time
Speaker 2: to learn the property, meet our neighbors, do some of
Speaker 2: this baseline setting. Now it's like time to get your
Speaker 2: hands dirty. You've got your first year ahead of you
Speaker 2: of doing work. Like you said, we all want to
Speaker 2: like change the world in a day. What would be
Speaker 2: a realistic goal or two or set of goals for
Speaker 2: that first year of work? What kind of things or
Speaker 2: what level of work do you think is reasonable to
Speaker 2: expect and year one of that.
Speaker 3: Depending on the composition of the property, say you have
Speaker 3: a say, are nice mature hardwoods area. I generally like
Speaker 3: to start with logging that puts money in the in
Speaker 3: the landowner's pocket, and that that can also set forward
Speaker 3: the improvement of the land, So creating some more of
Speaker 3: that early succession, encouraging additional browse before you do a
Speaker 3: timber harvest, though you want to make sure you're analyzing
Speaker 3: invasive species. So if I was to say, start with
Speaker 3: number one, analyze invasive species, use different plant apps to
Speaker 3: id invasive species, because you could go on there and
Speaker 3: log that woods and next thing, you know, you got
Speaker 3: a fourth floor of honeysuckle, which is a whole nother
Speaker 3: battle that most of us don't want to get into.
Speaker 3: Unless you have heavy equipment, it can be a job.
Speaker 3: And so I would say, manage invasive species, learn and
Speaker 3: identify those, and then I generally really truly like to
Speaker 3: start with a timber harvest, get some of that mature
Speaker 3: timber down, create some early successional growth, and increase that
Speaker 3: brows and side cover for all wildlife and generally that
Speaker 3: starts everything under goodfoot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this perfectly ties into another question, and it's a
Speaker 2: large topic. But someone asked, you know, just for our
Speaker 2: thoughts on managing for native habitat and why that's important versus,
Speaker 2: you know, just letting what's out there do its thing,
Speaker 2: letting the invasives go. Can you give me your you know,
Speaker 2: what's your pitch to somebody on why trying to promote
Speaker 2: native vegetation versus invasives is worthwhile. Why is that important
Speaker 2: in your view?
Speaker 3: Well, natives certainly are more desirable for the wildlife, all wildlife,
Speaker 3: not just dear. You know, we have turkeys that use
Speaker 3: the insects that feed off those native plants, the butterflies
Speaker 3: that use those flowers that pollinate certain tree species that
Speaker 3: we we end time planting your apples and pairs your bees.
Speaker 3: Everything is really, in a sense, in the ecosystem working together.
Speaker 3: So the more you can encourage your microlease ecosystem call
Speaker 3: it on your parcel of property, the more you can
Speaker 3: manage that in a native way. Everything generally works together,
Speaker 3: and it's much more desirable for the wildlife. Invasive species
Speaker 3: are invasive, Brewer reason. They can overtake the native habitat
Speaker 3: and completely change the landscape quicker than man can with
Speaker 3: mechanical tools or by hand. So making sure that you
Speaker 3: know you're identifying those native species and taking care of
Speaker 3: them is very important. And also you know, going into
Speaker 3: the local NRCS office and utilizing the resources there that
Speaker 3: at all of our fingertips learning those species, seeing what
Speaker 3: programs are available to encourage native habitat and also manage
Speaker 3: the invasive species.
Speaker 2: Yeah, are there government programs that will help help fund
Speaker 2: dealing with invasives, or can get you assistance to come
Speaker 2: out there and help remove some of that stuff or
Speaker 2: manage that. Is that anything that you've looked into that's available.
Speaker 3: Yes, and it does vary across county. But I would
Speaker 3: recommend any land on or go into their local NRCS
Speaker 3: office FSA office and talk with the staff there and
Speaker 3: see what programs are available for their area and different
Speaker 3: and property. Because, for instance, our Hillsdale Farm has a
Speaker 3: lot of desire for the copper belly water snake, which
Speaker 3: is an endangered snake here in southern Michigan. So we've
Speaker 3: utilized some of the money available to encourage better habitat
Speaker 3: for the copper belly water snake. We've added wetlands on
Speaker 3: our property. Very cool, so that so funding comes from
Speaker 3: some of that invasives from some of those endangered species
Speaker 3: as well to remote good habitat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. I read a book recently called Nature's
Speaker 2: Best Hope by Doug Tellomy I think his last name,
Speaker 2: and it was one of the best things I've read
Speaker 2: to help me just understand the importance of the native
Speaker 2: vegetation and how much more beneficial that is than the invasives.
Speaker 2: And you know what he really emphasized, and what makes
Speaker 2: a lot of sense, is that the health of an
Speaker 2: ecosystem and the productivity of an ecosystem, so like how
Speaker 2: much wildlife your back forwardy can produce, it's all dependent
Speaker 2: on the interactions between all the different species. And so
Speaker 2: you've got plants that deer depend on, right, So if
Speaker 2: you want a lot of deer, and if you want
Speaker 2: big deer or whatever it is, or if you want
Speaker 2: a lot of grouse, or if you want turkeys, you
Speaker 2: need the right vegetation and you also need the right
Speaker 2: insects because insects are providing food for many of those
Speaker 2: bug species that are pollinating the plants, propagating them, continuing
Speaker 2: them to grow. And so if you want the turkey,
Speaker 2: if you want the grouse, you need all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff too. And so what he emphasized that you
Speaker 2: need to look at each different layer of the food
Speaker 2: chain of the network. And there are many specialist relationships
Speaker 2: within an ecosystem between insects and plants or pollinators and plants.
Speaker 2: And what you have when you have invasives come in
Speaker 2: is you have invasive plants that take over an ecosystem
Speaker 2: that insects do not have a relationship with, and so
Speaker 2: you'll have a whole bunch of plant life that a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of the native insects can't feed on, or
Speaker 2: can't pollinate, or can't interact with, and so you lose
Speaker 2: a lot of those insects that are important praise dicas
Speaker 2: for all sorts of birds, they're important prey for turkeys,
Speaker 2: they're important prey for all sorts of stuff. And then
Speaker 2: that causes this trickle down effect. So if you want
Speaker 2: to have a lot of caterpillars and a lot of
Speaker 2: insects and all the stuff that all your birds want
Speaker 2: to eat and that you know are then going to
Speaker 2: continue pollinating the right things in your area, you need
Speaker 2: to have the native stuff that these species have evolved
Speaker 2: alongside of. And so that's why you know, when you
Speaker 2: get a whole bunch of honeysuckle, or you get a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of autom olive or whatever it is, and
Speaker 2: you think like, oh, that looks a good deer cover,
Speaker 2: Well it might be in the short term, but that
Speaker 2: is negatively impacting everything else that in the long run
Speaker 2: negatively impacts your deer herd and all the other birds
Speaker 2: and species out there. So yeah, I think it's important
Speaker 2: to try to emphasize the native vegetation as much as
Speaker 2: possible to not introduce something that's invasive and non native.
Speaker 2: Great point on connecting with the NRCS on government programs.
Speaker 2: There's a question from someone asking how to find information
Speaker 2: about the best native plants for your area. Curious what
Speaker 2: your answer to that would be if you have any
Speaker 2: other ideas. But there is one resource I found called
Speaker 2: the Native Plant Finder. It's a program by the National
Speaker 2: Wildlife Federation and it's the link is Nativeplantfinder dot NWF
Speaker 2: dot org. You go to that website, you punch in
Speaker 2: your zip code for wherever your property is, and it
Speaker 2: will show you the top flowers, the top grasses, the
Speaker 2: top trees and shrubs, as far as native plants for
Speaker 2: your area that support insect life and all the other
Speaker 2: stuff that depends on it. So if you do that,
Speaker 2: you're getting all the other benefits. So like something like
Speaker 2: like oaks are a top native in my area? Of
Speaker 2: course many places, yes, And they're great as we all
Speaker 2: know because they produce mass. But they also are one
Speaker 2: of the most important trees for producing and housing insects.
Speaker 2: They're one of the very most important places for or
Speaker 2: caterpillar production, which caterpillars feed the line's share of birds
Speaker 2: at certain times of the year, So super important for
Speaker 2: all sorts of reasons. So oaks are a big one
Speaker 2: by me. Golden rods really good, sunflower is really good, loupine, violet, geranium, willows,
Speaker 2: beach plums, cherries, birch, aspen, maple, box elder, all sorts
Speaker 2: of stuff. You can go to that website, plug in
Speaker 2: your zip code, get some recommendations there. You mentioned the
Speaker 2: NRCS office in your neck of the woods. Is there
Speaker 2: any other resource you'd recommend for folks to go to
Speaker 2: to start getting some of this information.
Speaker 3: I haven't found any any valid other resources other than
Speaker 3: the NRCS FSA office. You know you could you could
Speaker 3: generally reach out and try to find different groups you
Speaker 3: know that are focused on native ecosystem restoration projects in
Speaker 3: your area. Be a great learning resource. But I would
Speaker 3: say that the best recommendation from myself would be your
Speaker 3: nr CS. Their local They're very educated on the native
Speaker 3: plant species and that specific east of ecosystem within that county,
Speaker 3: and I think getting this close down to the area
Speaker 3: that you're in with your native plant communities is very
Speaker 3: key because you know, you could say Michigan natives and
Speaker 3: that's a large area versus zeroing it down right into
Speaker 3: your local county area is the best for ecosystem management.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One more on this line of thinking. Somebody asked,
Speaker 2: in what situation would you consider honeysuckle good or bad
Speaker 2: for deer? Is there any situation in which you would
Speaker 2: say is good?
Speaker 3: This is a tough question. Yeah, I would say honeysuckle
Speaker 3: is good for deer when it's anywhere from eight inches
Speaker 3: to two feet tall, where they can browse that and
Speaker 3: eat that new growth, because it does leaf out before
Speaker 3: any other plant or shrub and as well as it
Speaker 3: loses its leaves last, so it's it's great from that point.
Speaker 3: It's nutritional. It does provide some automolive does provide nitrogen
Speaker 3: into the soil, so it is a nitrogen fixator. But
Speaker 3: there's not too many pros of it. If you can,
Speaker 3: if you could mulch that down and manage it in
Speaker 3: a way that it doesn't get over three to four
Speaker 3: foot tall where it starts getting above the deer where
Speaker 3: they can they can reach to browse I would say
Speaker 3: anywhere lower than that is beneficial. As soon as it
Speaker 3: gets to that eight to ten foot range, plants underneath
Speaker 3: start to die off and the diversity has then lost.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And is that the big knock? Like, the big
Speaker 2: reason honeysuckle is such an issue is because it's so
Speaker 2: it can so quickly take over an area that it
Speaker 2: can just, you know, just completely push out all of
Speaker 2: the native stuff that's really good for all sorts of
Speaker 2: things for long periods of time, and then it then
Speaker 2: matures the way you're talking about and then eliminates all value.
Speaker 2: Is that the big issue?
Speaker 3: Yes? Well, and you were mentioning the importance of birds,
Speaker 3: and birds love honeysuckle berries. So as soon as that
Speaker 3: bird eats that berry, it goes and sits on that
Speaker 3: limb of the oak tree and decimates down and there's
Speaker 3: an opening opening in the canopy for sunlight to hit
Speaker 3: that that honeysuckle is sprouting. And then as soon as
Speaker 3: that takes off and starts to grow and gets mature,
Speaker 3: everything underneath the diversity is completely lost. So it is
Speaker 3: very important from a management perspective to make sure that
Speaker 3: you are either eradicating it or managing it in a
Speaker 3: way that it's still beneficial for the wildlife.
Speaker 2: Okay, speaking of birds, got a question here about turkeys.
Speaker 2: You've probably been seeing the same reports I have over
Speaker 2: recent years about declining turkey numbers in certain parts of
Speaker 2: the country. There seems to be this rising concern about
Speaker 2: what for a long time was a was a smashing
Speaker 2: success of a wildlife restoration story when it comes to
Speaker 2: bringing turkeys back, and all of a sudden like people
Speaker 2: are like, Eh, we're worried again about it. So someone
Speaker 2: here asked, you know, what can we do that helps
Speaker 2: deer but also greatly benefits declining turkey populations? Is that
Speaker 2: something you've got any ideas around? Are there any specific
Speaker 2: projects or types of work that you think would be
Speaker 2: particularly useful to help turkeys too?
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, using those chainsaws, getting out there doing tim
Speaker 3: or stand improvement. Also, logging logging is a great way
Speaker 3: to create some of that side cover for those birds
Speaker 3: to get up under those tops. Post logging and nests.
Speaker 3: So having that side cover and brushy ecosystem is key
Speaker 3: for turkeys as well as other wildlife deer. In particular,
Speaker 3: having that early successional growth is very valuable for turkeys
Speaker 3: inside cover to reduce the amount of predation on those
Speaker 3: young poles.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I looked into this last year for a
Speaker 2: writing project and was trying to understand, you know, where,
Speaker 2: where are the real challenges for turkeys, what's the issue
Speaker 2: and most everything, The biggest culprit was a reduction in
Speaker 2: nesting and brooding habitat. Just like you mentioned, we really
Speaker 2: need to have that quality nesting and brooding habitat, which
Speaker 2: is like early successional growth three feet or lower grasses,
Speaker 2: shrubs forbes. You need that kind of safe area and
Speaker 2: then also productive you know, insect population, insect growth. And
Speaker 2: then finally, an important thing that I read a couple
Speaker 2: of places was that when it comes to turkeys, having
Speaker 2: multiple regions like this is beneficial versus having just like
Speaker 2: one pocket. So if you've got forty acres, it would
Speaker 2: be better to have at least according to these sources
Speaker 2: that I read, it would be better to have multiple
Speaker 2: pockets of this kind of habitat, like four or five
Speaker 2: half acre zones like this or an acre zone like
Speaker 2: this versus just one because you would have predators zeroing
Speaker 2: in on just that one location all the time and
Speaker 2: being able to sweep it clean and pick up those
Speaker 2: polts versus having that spread out across your property. So
Speaker 2: multiple areas of early successional habitat that give you that
Speaker 2: brooding and nesting habitat seems to be a good thing
Speaker 2: for turkeys.
Speaker 3: Diversity, diversity, diversity, Yeah, that is spreading out those areas
Speaker 3: of early succession. Like you said, that's some of the concerns.
Speaker 3: You see, Guys will go out and they'll they'll clear
Speaker 3: cut a whole area, you know, of their property, and
Speaker 3: that's the only thing that that wildlife use it is
Speaker 3: that one particular area. So you got to have certain
Speaker 3: pockets of different management techniques to help ensure the health
Speaker 3: of wildlife. Have an areas where it's not too dense
Speaker 3: on the forest floor that they can feed on those
Speaker 3: acorns versus not find those, you know, and those are
Speaker 3: definitely key points.
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's a unique one. This guy says, I just
Speaker 2: bought a home on fourteen acres. There's about eight acres
Speaker 2: of woods and six acres of yard with a pond.
Speaker 2: I'd like to add a food plot or some kind
Speaker 2: of wildlife holding habitat to my grass acreage. What would
Speaker 2: our suggestions be for turning some portion of that six
Speaker 2: acre yard into better wildlife habitat. What would you do
Speaker 2: with a big yard, Kyle.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't like to spend time on the lawnmower,
Speaker 3: so I would most likely kill off that grass that's
Speaker 3: currently exists and plant either some grasses and forbes to
Speaker 3: create some of that again early successional habitat, some trees shrubs,
Speaker 3: creating that cover as well as forage at different times
Speaker 3: of the year, and really analyzing because that eight acres
Speaker 3: of woods is key. Depending on his location, you know,
Speaker 3: if he has surrounding habitat, it might not be as key,
Speaker 3: but if he has fields surrounding him, staying out of
Speaker 3: that woods and really making it desirable for wildlife is
Speaker 3: key to hold those on your property. If you can
Speaker 3: go in there and leave that area alone, cut some
Speaker 3: of those you know, non desirable trees out of there
Speaker 3: or shrubs, add more brows to the forest floor, and
Speaker 3: then keeping that area low pressure, and then adding in
Speaker 3: the diversity throughout the yard. That probably that would be
Speaker 3: my approach to that property without knowing the surrounding area.
Speaker 2: What does that look like like like walking me through
Speaker 2: the actual process of killing the yard and planting this
Speaker 2: blend of grass as forbes whatever other stuff you would do,
Speaker 2: like how does the guy do that?
Speaker 3: Well? Step one would be killing the grass. You know,
Speaker 3: if you're opposed to the chemical use, you could till
Speaker 3: multiple times and then call a pack and then I
Speaker 3: highly recommend no till drilling in the natives. That gets
Speaker 3: your best seed to soil contact. You could broadcast, but
Speaker 3: it's very difficult when you had a mix of forbes
Speaker 3: into that native plant community. So the forbes are more
Speaker 3: of a fluffy seed, so it's very hard to get
Speaker 3: those to run through like for instance, an earthwayte spreader.
Speaker 3: So that's why I always recommend, you know, no till drilling.
Speaker 3: If you can back to those NRCS offices, they generally
Speaker 3: have a trill there that you can rent if you
Speaker 3: have a tractor or other equipment to pull that. So
Speaker 3: either spraying that grass and killing it or tilling it
Speaker 3: multiple times to break up that root system, and then
Speaker 3: no till drilling in the native grasses and forbes. If
Speaker 3: you were to just plant safe for instance, switch grass.
Speaker 3: A lot of guys like switch grass recover in smaller
Speaker 3: areas as it grows tall and it stands real well
Speaker 3: when when it comes to the heavy west snow here
Speaker 3: in the Middlewest, so that you could call pack once
Speaker 3: and then broadcast the seed and then call pack again.
Speaker 3: That way, you're ensuring that that switch grass seed isn't
Speaker 3: getting too deep in the soil.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like the idea, And that would definitely
Speaker 2: be along the lines of what I'd be thinking of
Speaker 2: doing too, I think I would. You know, so we've
Speaker 2: got he has a six acre yard, and so we'll say,
Speaker 2: like the front acres around his house, so we'll let
Speaker 2: him keep that. So I've got five acres to work with,
Speaker 2: and he wants to make this you know, I'm assuming
Speaker 2: he wants to be able to hunt this place too, right,
Speaker 2: And so I would I would say. The only other
Speaker 2: thing I might suggest is he like, yeah, do you
Speaker 2: can have a food plot and they have your acre
Speaker 2: food plot or whatever half acre food plot, but you know,
Speaker 2: strategically place that in a location where you can access
Speaker 2: it without spooking deer and then also you know, be
Speaker 2: able to get out of it. You know, if you
Speaker 2: want to hunt the edge of that food plot for
Speaker 2: an evening hunt, make sure that you're setting it up
Speaker 2: in such a way that you can exit heading back
Speaker 2: towards the house. Without having spooked deer and or be
Speaker 2: able to hunt your timber without spooking deer feeding on
Speaker 2: the food plot. So thinking about your access when you
Speaker 2: place that food plot, and then the rest of it
Speaker 2: would be what you just described. I would plant that
Speaker 2: prairie native grass, forbes flowers, whatever, get that you know
Speaker 2: that's going to get us the early successional habitat that
Speaker 2: deer want, the turkeys want, that all the birds and
Speaker 2: critters want. And then using something like you mentioned switch
Speaker 2: grass or you know, to help me get by a
Speaker 2: year one, maybe I would do something like a like
Speaker 2: a sore gum or something to create a screen. Because
Speaker 2: the one thing I would be worried about in a
Speaker 2: yard situation is like, how do I make sure that
Speaker 2: deer feels safe coming out and feeding or hanging out
Speaker 2: here in the daylight without being spooked by whatever I'm
Speaker 2: doing or my kids are doing behind the house or whatever.
Speaker 2: So I would try to create some kind of screen
Speaker 2: to block off the house or neighbors from you know,
Speaker 2: these wildlife attracting spots. So the long term solution would
Speaker 2: be like a switch grass screen or some kind of
Speaker 2: native grass screen if you can find one that will
Speaker 2: be tall and hold up well, or plant conifers if
Speaker 2: you can find something like that. I know there are
Speaker 2: some willow species that can grow very quickly and create
Speaker 2: a visual screen. That could be something to think about.
Speaker 2: But I would I'd be thinking about how can I screen.
Speaker 2: So what I imagine is is somehow screening the food
Speaker 2: plot or screening the main area that I want to
Speaker 2: be able to hunt from the from the house. And
Speaker 2: then inside of that screen is where I want my
Speaker 2: prairie and my native grasses and all that stuff. And
Speaker 2: then you can have your food plot tucked in there
Speaker 2: that gives you your little attraction point. And then you've
Speaker 2: got your timber behind that that could be your main
Speaker 2: betting area or whatever. And so you've got these layers
Speaker 2: of habitat. You've got this diversity of habitat. But most important,
Speaker 2: I think is like providing a sense of security for them.
Speaker 3: Ye, very good point.
Speaker 2: Severity, I think that helps, Yes, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And back to the food plots. I when I'm designing
Speaker 3: a property layout, I always try to keep in mind
Speaker 3: that I'm improving the habitat to the point where those
Speaker 3: food plots are simply supplemental food sources. The deer and
Speaker 3: wildlife are only using those when they absolutely need it,
Speaker 3: and they you know, they also can depend on those
Speaker 3: for different times of the year when things get tough,
Speaker 3: whether it's super cold, the snow gets deep, or it
Speaker 3: could be dry at different points of the year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So Kyle, I've got another follow up
Speaker 2: question that's that's similar to that someone had asked about
Speaker 2: the best method for restoring or reforesting and old hayfield
Speaker 2: or pasture. You know, basically how to add cover to
Speaker 2: an old field. Would you have basically the same answer
Speaker 2: as to what we just said somebody should do with
Speaker 2: yard or is there something different we could do in
Speaker 2: this old field type situation?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would, I would take a little different approach.
Speaker 3: The local NRCS office could could potentially cover some of
Speaker 3: the costs of the re establishment of that old pasture.
Speaker 3: If there's invasive species out there, they could, you know,
Speaker 3: help give you some money to subsidize the cost of
Speaker 3: remediation work, whether it's removing those invasive species or establishing
Speaker 3: that prairie. They generally will help subsidize the cost of
Speaker 3: the establishment re establishment of prairie in those areas that
Speaker 3: have been used for agriculture. Previously.
Speaker 2: Okay, do you think that there's any value two. You know,
Speaker 2: in the last question we talked about, you know, planting
Speaker 2: native grass as forbes, all that kind of stuff to
Speaker 2: try to transform the yard into something useful. One thing
Speaker 2: I thought with like an old field situation is that
Speaker 2: you might not want to rush into planting something because
Speaker 2: there might still be native seeds in the seed bank.
Speaker 2: If you were to just you know, disturb the pasture
Speaker 2: by disking it or spraying it or burning it, and
Speaker 2: then just seeing what's in the seed bank, see what
Speaker 2: naturally comes up, and you might actually get some good
Speaker 2: native growth that you want that would achieve this stuff
Speaker 2: for you. And then maybe then all you have to
Speaker 2: do is spot treat a few invasives here and there,
Speaker 2: plants some trees wherever you want it. But that might
Speaker 2: be a cheaper way to kind of use what nature's
Speaker 2: already given you. I recognized in some cases you might
Speaker 2: do that and then it's all nasty, non native stuff
Speaker 2: that you don't want, So it's a hit or miss.
Speaker 2: But is that a reasonable possibility to do in this situation.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great way of kind of reclaiming
Speaker 3: that old pasture. One thing I would recommend in conjunction
Speaker 3: with that is getting on Google Earth and going back
Speaker 3: to the earliest aerial imagery of that area and kind
Speaker 3: of playing that tape forward to see if you can
Speaker 3: recognize any remnants of native prairie throughout the time. Depending
Speaker 3: on some of the maps, you can go as far
Speaker 3: back as the nineteen fifties and replay that all the
Speaker 3: way to the current day. So that would give you
Speaker 3: a good idea whether there's potential for existing native prairie
Speaker 3: in that old pasture area.
Speaker 2: That's a cool idea. Okay, here's a question that I
Speaker 2: can relate to you. I have this situation up at
Speaker 2: our Northern Michigan deer camp. Actually, the question is I
Speaker 2: can hold doze on our property year round, but Bucks
Speaker 2: only seem to come around during the pre run. What
Speaker 2: can I do to get Bucks to spend time on
Speaker 2: my property all year round versus just for that little window.
Speaker 3: What do you think of That's a tough one. It's
Speaker 3: one that could, you know, be answered in a few
Speaker 3: different ways. It could be one too many dos. That
Speaker 3: dose could be congregated the desirable areas of habitat on
Speaker 3: the property. Dose generally like that healthier ecosystem. They need
Speaker 3: that nutrition for feeding the young and taking care of
Speaker 3: the new fawns for the spring. So they need a
Speaker 3: lot of nutrition that does generally gravitate towards better habitat
Speaker 3: from what I've analyzed. And also, you know, it could
Speaker 3: be a back to too many doughs. If you have
Speaker 3: too many dos, it will push out those bucks and
Speaker 3: cause them to go stay stay on different properties throughout
Speaker 3: the times of the year. Obviously during the rut you're
Speaker 3: going to have those bucks in their chase and after
Speaker 3: those dos because they're commingling at that point. So that
Speaker 3: would say, you know, I answer that in two different ways,
Speaker 3: either too many dos or that the ecosystem has improved
Speaker 3: in small areas, and that means you could probably go
Speaker 3: through the rest of the property and improve that to
Speaker 3: help spread out that populations of dos and create less
Speaker 3: density in different areas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I thought about it in two ways, and
Speaker 2: kind of similar to you. I think that one of
Speaker 2: the things that absolutely could be would be the too
Speaker 2: many dos in that like bucks, especially mature bucks, are
Speaker 2: like grumpy old men. They want space, they want to
Speaker 2: be left alone, they want to feel safe and comfortable
Speaker 2: in their old routine, and they need to have safe,
Speaker 2: secure betting areas where they can get those things achieved. So,
Speaker 2: if you've got a place that's just overran with does
Speaker 2: and every nook and cranny and there's not a lot
Speaker 2: of good security cover and betting opportunities, you know, a
Speaker 2: mature buck just might not like to spend very much
Speaker 2: time there and so and so that's one thing. So
Speaker 2: I guess there's two three ways you could do this.
Speaker 2: One reduce the deer density. If you're in a place
Speaker 2: like that where it's just like tons and tons of deer.
Speaker 2: You know, Jeff Sturg just likes to call us a
Speaker 2: dough factory, So if you are just pumping out doughs
Speaker 2: all year round, maybe you need to reduce the dough
Speaker 2: density some so that you open up more of these
Speaker 2: areas for bucks to live the life they want to live. Secondly,
Speaker 2: you could increase your bedding cover. Maybe it's just the
Speaker 2: fact that you don't have a lot of good security
Speaker 2: betting cover, and if you were to increase that, then
Speaker 2: maybe you can create these spaces where a buck will
Speaker 2: feel safe, will feel comfortable, We'll have the separation from
Speaker 2: the rest of the herd, that he wants, so that
Speaker 2: could help. And then finally, you know, the second abtraction
Speaker 2: of a of a habitat or of a property is
Speaker 2: is there the food that bucks are going to want?
Speaker 2: And so if you have a property that just you know,
Speaker 2: and I guess if you've got does, then you have
Speaker 2: your basic criteria mat from a deer attraction standpoint, because
Speaker 2: there are does hanging out their feeding. But what I'm
Speaker 2: thinking here is like, for example, up in a kenra
Speaker 2: or deer camp, prior to doing the work we had
Speaker 2: and even now still to a degree, we have some food,
Speaker 2: We have lots of cover, although it's not like perfect cover,
Speaker 2: but we have lots of cover, a little bit of food,
Speaker 2: and it's been enough that we can get dos to
Speaker 2: hang out there consistently. But the bucks are not there
Speaker 2: consistently yet, and I think that's because there's just not
Speaker 2: enough to go around. And so the only time they
Speaker 2: really are willing to come onto this still subpower property
Speaker 2: that's like just not quite right yet is they're willing
Speaker 2: to do that during the rut because there are females
Speaker 2: there and so that's a starting point. But until like
Speaker 2: there's lots of food and lots of cover. I don't
Speaker 2: necessarily see them taking up shop there year round. So
Speaker 2: I kind of think about this as like, oh, I
Speaker 2: don't know, like a a bad analogy, but like a
Speaker 2: really creuddy bar. If there's a really credit bar and
Speaker 2: I'm a college student, I might be willing to go
Speaker 2: to the really credit bar at three in the morning
Speaker 2: when i'm you know, trolling and trying to meet a gale.
Speaker 2: But like, I'm not going to go to the really
Speaker 2: credit bar at eight o'clock or nine o'clock and spend
Speaker 2: four hours they're just hanging out with my buddies because
Speaker 2: it's not that much fun. There's not that much good
Speaker 2: stuff there. I'm only going to go there when I'm
Speaker 2: desperate at the end of the night and I've had
Speaker 2: a couple of beers, right So that's kind of what
Speaker 2: I'm imagining my you know, our property might be for
Speaker 2: deer right now when they're desperate once it's the rut
Speaker 2: and they're just looking for anything anywhere, they're willing to
Speaker 2: come over there and hang out. I need to transform
Speaker 2: my property into like the really nice place where they
Speaker 2: where people want to start the day and end the day.
Speaker 2: I'm not quite there it's it's a work in progress still,
Speaker 2: and I'm imagining that could be a scenario which you
Speaker 2: could which you could see this kind of thing happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a that's a great analogy. I was actually
Speaker 3: thinking as you were talking. I kind of use this
Speaker 3: reference many times during consultations. Is you want to treat
Speaker 3: your property kind of like a hotel. You have a
Speaker 3: pool where everyone will congregate, all the families will come
Speaker 3: down there, they'll swim for the afternoon. You know, seven
Speaker 3: eight o'clock rolls around. You have that mom and dad
Speaker 3: and two kids that go back to their hotel room
Speaker 3: generally is on the first or second floor, depending on
Speaker 3: the hotel type. And then you get those private suites
Speaker 3: where it might be a mom and dad's night out
Speaker 3: and you know you're just alone and you want that
Speaker 3: higher quality sleep, not not as much noise here on
Speaker 3: the top floor. That kind of goes to that mature buckbed.
Speaker 3: He wants that area where not getting disturbed, you know,
Speaker 3: he can be to himself. And then those dose are
Speaker 3: where the families are at. They're in the more congested
Speaker 3: areas where the food. They're closer to the food, they're
Speaker 3: closer to the pool. You know, they're kind of closer
Speaker 3: to everything because they're nursing those young, they're keeping them protected,
Speaker 3: and they want to be close that way. They're spending
Speaker 3: a lot of energy getting to and from food sources
Speaker 3: and taking care of the young. As we all know,
Speaker 3: taking care of kids requires more energy, so that means
Speaker 3: they need to be closer to the food and good
Speaker 3: cover to reduce the predation on those young fawns.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like we're knocking the metaphors out
Speaker 2: of the park right here, so I think it's a
Speaker 2: good place to wrap it up as we've hit our
Speaker 2: sweet spot of literary metaphors and whatnot. So with that said, Kyle,
Speaker 2: good stuff. We tackled some good questions here. I appreciate
Speaker 2: you helping out with this. Thanks for taking the time today.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the help up at our place up north.
Speaker 2: We're excited about the progress for seeing there and oh
Speaker 2: a lot of that to you, so thank you. Hey guys,
Speaker 2: Mark here, just a quick heads.
Speaker 4: Up, we had a little technical difficulty at the end
Speaker 4: of this interview that ended up leading to the end
Speaker 4: of our conversation being cut off. So apologies for the
Speaker 4: abrupt ending, and I also want to let you know
Speaker 4: that if you want to learn more about Kyle or
Speaker 4: contact him about consulting or actual contract work out on
Speaker 4: your property, you can learn more or get a hold
Speaker 4: of him at dreamland wildlife dot com.
Speaker 2: All right, and that's gonna do it today. Thanks for
Speaker 2: joining us, Thank you for tuning in. If you're a
Speaker 2: habitat guy or garrel, I hope you get out there
Speaker 2: and enjoy these coming weeks and months of habitat season,
Speaker 2: improving early successional habitat, or managing your timber or preparing
Speaker 2: food plots, you know, creating new prairie habitat, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: it's great. It's good to get your hands dirty, get
Speaker 2: out there in the land and give back. So I'm
Speaker 2: happy you're doing it. I appreciate it, And until next time,
Speaker 2: stay wired to hunt.