WEBVTT - Wonder Woman: Kara Swisher 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.320 Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and hello listeners. You know, when 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:10.719 you think about the news these days, Brian, you think 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:14.840 about the two arenas that are dominating the headlines day 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.479 in and day out, minute by minute, and those two 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.920 arenas are probably politics and technology. And you know who 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.960 understands tech better than almost anyone, including the two of us. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.840 Could it be our next guest, Kara Swisher? Wow, that's 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.040 so convenient it could. Yes, this week's wonder Woman. Kara 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.519 Swisher has been covering the industry for more than twenty 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:36.839 years and is one of the most incisive and well 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.720 connected players in Silicon Valley. She's such a pit bowl, Brian, 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:45.120 but she's actually a very nice pit bowl. She started 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.360 working a long time ago, actually at the Washington Post. 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.640 She apparently chewed out an editor for an article that 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.440 had been written about an event at Georgetown where she 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.360 was a student. She ultimately got a job there. She 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.960 went to the Wall Street Journal, and then she wrote 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.720 a couple of books about a O Well, she started 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.280 this huge tech site. I think really she was on 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.720 the front lines of tech journalism back in the day, Brian, 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.160 when she started All Things D with her partner Walt 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.880 Mossburg and she's an entrepreneur herself. She left the Journal 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.399 and all things d to start Recode and I like this. 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.720 A few years back in New York Magazine described Kara 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.120 as Silicon Valley's most feared and well liked journalist, which 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.160 is quite a rare combo, that's for sure. Fo schizl, 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.399 as the kids might say. Brian. By the way, this 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.039 is a crossover episode with Kara's podcast, Recode Decode, which 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.920 means a version of this conversation will dropping Kara's podcast 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:43.240 feed as well. But sadly for you, Brian, I'm flying 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.960 solo this time and I'm missing you. Yeah. I don't 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:47.520 want to get in the way of the two alpha women. 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.800 So you have your conversation. Keep me out of trouble, please, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.360 and I'm gonna be excited to listen. Thanks Brian. Karen 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.920 and I covered a lot of ground from how she 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.640 got into the business of journalism in college using her 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:06.400 trademark Hutzpah Hutzpah Hotspa. We also talked about our respective 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:10.840 careers and we kick things off by talking about Snapchat, 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:16.520 of all things. Well, let me ask you about Snapchat 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.239 because I want to not only talk to you about 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.440 some of these big media companies and get the latest 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.680 skinny on it. But I also want to talk about you, Kac. 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:27.040 But first, you know, so, I know Evan Spiegel had 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.000 a good quarter. I know that investors were a little heartened, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.600 but it seems like Instagram really took the wind out 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.480 of his sales with Insta Stories, which I'm totally obsessed with, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.880 which is actually a sickness which will will discuss later. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.720 But UM, tell me what's going on with Snapchat. I 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.360 know they did a redesign and people were sad about 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.320 it when the latest on that my son texted me 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.639 is like, nobody likes this redesign. I mean, I think 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.920 these companies redesigned continually. They're always shifting and changing, and 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.080 you know, Facebook had twenty ones that people didn't like, 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:56.680 so I think that I think they just have to 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:57.960 go with the way they want to do it and 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.800 then the best and people will. Yeah, I don't. I 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.720 don't obsess on redesigns unless they're just truly awful, like 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.400 a new coke, like new you know, something really doesn't work, um, 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.280 and people get people get used to the way they're 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:11.919 using these things, So I don't over index on that 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.359 UM that said, you know, they've got to be very 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.440 careful because what happened is years ago Facebook tried to 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.560 copies try to buy Snapchat. First of all, Facebook is 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.040 essentially they're mortal, not their mortal enemy. They're they're killer really, 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.040 They're they're trying to kill off Snapchat. UM, and they 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.320 bought they try to buy Snapchat, and he put it off. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.920 He's a really interesting and visionary entrepreneur, Evan Spiel. I 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.800 think every time I talked to him, always fascinated, and 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.560 that's I can't say that with everybody I talked to UM. 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:40.600 And he's he's got a big sense of where things 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.800 are going. And they really do have an advantage in 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.160 that it's not a twitchy medium at all, even though 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:46.800 I don't use it that much and I do know 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.160 how to use it, UM, but it's a much it's 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.720 a different it's a communications meeting a lot more like 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.440 we chat in China, UM if you if you ever 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.080 used that one. But Facebook had just decided to try 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:00.440 to kill it, and so they try something I think 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:02.560 it was called poke or something like that, which is 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:05.760 just an awful name for a medium. UM. Based on 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.880 the pokes on Facebook essentially UM, and that didn't work 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.520 and didn't catch on UM. And then they did it, 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.800 used Instagram to do this, to do Instagram stories UM. 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.200 And I had Kevin H. Sistram, who was the founder 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.640 of Instagram, on my podcast and he you know, most 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.919 the people complained about it. They basically thought it was 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.480 shoplifting or plagiarism, you know, in terms of how they 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.960 borrowed what Snapchat was doing. And he said, look, we 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.240 are doing exactly the same thing they're doing. But someone 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.359 invented the car radio. Should we not make better car radios? 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.400 You know what I mean? That's that was his argument. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.600 We're making a better car radio, and good for them 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:41.400 for inventing the car radio, but too bad. And I 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.120 think he was talking about the itera of nature of 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.880 technologies that people build on, just like jobs and Gates stole. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.160 They borrowed the stuff from xerox park, the graphical user interface, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.119 it happens, it happens again. And I think the problem 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.440 for Snapchat is that Facebook can just roll eventually will 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.760 get it right, just like Microsoft did a million times 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.000 on a bunch of other tech companies. So what does 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:06.919 that mean for Evan Spiegel and Snapchat. How does Instagram compare, Well, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.440 he's so creative. I so it is Kevin's Sistram by 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.880 the way, who runs Instagram. Um, but I think it's hard. 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:14.640 I think it's super hard to compete. I mean, the 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.560 ear of big tech companies now is really here. Um. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:19.200 It was talking to someone the other day of a 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.200 venture capitalist named Sarah Tavil, and she said, it's really 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.719 hard to do innovative companies anymore because and there will 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:27.919 be innovative companies, it's not going to never stop. But 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:35.240 the powerful companies Apple, Google, Facebook, Um, Amazon and Amazon 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.000 are just it just creates a like a really difficult 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.840 and they're buying up companies and they're they're being innovative 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.280 and iterative themselves, and so it makes it super hard 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.800 for smaller companies to break in. Facebook has gotten a 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:49.679 lot of bad press lately Russia and about all kinds 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.200 of things. So give me can you just catch me 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.640 up on what's happening in Facebook? And what do you 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:57.880 think the outcome is going to be of a lot 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.960 of this criticism. Well, you know it's interesting. I was 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.360 on you don't follow Twitter that carefully, but I had 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.920 a debate with Facebook executives this weekend on Twitter. I'm 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.719 gonna have to go back. They lost, they lost. It's gone, 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:14.640 o Katie. Yeah. No, Here's what they did is they're 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:16.760 they're very sensitive. First of all, they did a very 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.719 slow roll about the uses of their platform by Russia. UM, 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.720 in terms of initially last year, Mark Zuckerberg said there 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.880 was no impact whatsoever. They said that again even recently, right, 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:32.440 they did say the election, which is the unknowable thing. Yes, 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.360 well they wanted to. You know, they just keep saying it, 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:38.200 and they maybe it's like Trump, right, they just keep saying, 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.080 the crowds are bigger, the crowds are bigger than crowds 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.480 were here. UM. I think one of the things is 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.640 they're very you know, they're very technical and mathematical people, 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.680 and so they're being very accurate about certain things they're 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.719 saying and and focusing in on and missing the forest 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.560 through the trees. You know, a lot of this stuff unquantifiable. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.080 Some of it is, some of it is. But I 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.360 think the overall issue is that they're they're they're technically 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.400 saying these ads were not run. Until these ads were, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:06.840 they weren't talking about the content on the platform. It's 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.480 so much larger and bigger than they're discussing. But technically 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.840 their ads were bought at various times, and so their 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.239 their whole premise around this is that these ads didn't 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.960 sway the election, and everyone else is like, well, there's 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.840 an indictment by Robert Mueller that shows how they used 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.680 primarily Facebook and Instagram to invade the system and take 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.720 advantage of the system. And I liken it to I mean, 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.320 if you think about it, what if Russia had bought 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.760 all the advertisements on a network or run the content 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.480 of a network during a presidential election and swayed it. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.520 And they don't. They're not, they're not. They don't want 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.640 to take responsibility for the fact that their platform was 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:47.640 used by a malevolent power to create discord in our 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.240 country and that doesn't seem to bother them as much 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.760 as technically our ads weren't bought into here, the platforms 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:56.160 were used and abused, because you know, it's sort of 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:57.880 like why would you rob a bank. That's where the 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.640 money is, that's where the people are. So these platforms, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.120 and Facebook being the biggest one, have been much abused 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.080 by malevolent powers. So what's going to happen like when 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.320 you think about Facebook, Karen, you think about say, YouTube, 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.480 which has also had a lot of problems with I 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.920 just intornography and inappropriate content, and advertisers are now shying 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.360 away from that. I mean, what what is the solution 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.240 for these companies with they you know, the genies out 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.640 of the bottle? Well, I just had a long interview 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.560 with Susan Wijiski at one of our events earlier this week. Actually, 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.840 who's the CEO? Very thoughtful person. I just had her 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.640 on an NBC MSNBC show. I did. I really like her. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.040 She's great, She's great. But I mean they're trying very 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.920 hard because they know that these platforms are massive. I 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.120 mean the they I think it's a trillion hours a 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.120 week or some it's some enormous number that's being uploaded 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.640 to YouTube and all these social media platforms, and so 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.720 the ability of them to monitor it is enormous. They don't. 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.320 There's obviously people can't do it. It's not it's not 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.440 feasible for people to do it's not scalable. And then secondly, 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.880 the technology around AI and other machine learning in order 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.600 to to maybe control this better is still in its 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.880 infancy and very problematic. And so they they're trying to 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.880 figure out how to maintain order, I guess, and at 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.439 the same time pretend they're not media companies. And so 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.319 when I interview them, I do a lot of well 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.280 are you immediate? No, we're not where I think Susan 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.360 was like where a technology platform whose end result is 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:25.000 media or something. It was something like really convoluted ways. 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.800 Do you think they're so reticent to be you know, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:32.000 because it requires responsibility, because it requires responsibility there. That 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.640 means they're responsible. Like the New York Times cares if 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:36.719 it's wrong, right, you know, whatever people think of the 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.160 New York Times or whatever liberal media or whatever. You know, 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.360 working at any of these institutions, we care when we're wrong. 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.679 We say we're wrong. We like correct and it matters. 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.920 There's a great deal of heaviness to the responsibility. Well, 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.080 they're like I think they say they're the pipes. They're not. 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.559 That goes through it, right, even as they ruin the 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.040 business plans of every publisher, you know what I mean, 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.760 it's really they have to take it's a different kind 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:02.520 of media company. But they're a media company. But the 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:04.560 minute they admit their a media company, it means they 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.320 have responsibility for what's on their platform, and and there's 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.240 lots of laws why they don't want that to happen 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:10.959 to like they don't they want to just say they're 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.600 at the nine platform essentially. Do you think that's ever 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:15.320 going to change? I mean, what, how do you see 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.120 this all? You know? No, I don't think that there 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.800 would be any regulation. There's there's always talk about it. 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.560 And obviously I'm interviewing Corey Booker and others. The Democrats 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.000 are suddenly which were the friend of internet, are now 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.400 turning on the Internet, which is really interesting. Um and 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.320 so we'll see if the Democrats get in power, if 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.400 there's more regulation. But so far the US and where 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.040 most of this is taking place, has been toothless. Europe, 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.400 on the other hand, there's a woman named Marguerite Vestiger 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.680 who's been very tough on all the big media companies 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.079 in Europe. She's a she's a commissioner at the EU. 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.600 I think it's for competition. I forget her long title, 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.600 but she's vanta. I did a great podcast an interview 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.440 with her. She's she's really an interesting force and she's 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.800 the one that's levied all these fines on these companies 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.439 and and really has the teeth to really bother them 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.400 in these countries. And I think the European Union and 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.800 Europe has a very different point of view on privacy, 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.079 on abuse, on all kinds of things that that is 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.080 problematic for tech US tech companies. But in the US, 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.160 you know, they roll over. Everybody rolls over. And obviously 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.160 our Twitter in chief, our troll in chiefs Donald Trump 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:25.560 is using the medium to his own advantage. It's time 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:27.360 to take a quick break. We'll have more of my 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:39.360 conversation with Kara Swisher right after this. And now back 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:44.719 to my conversation with Kara Swisher. You know, nobody knows this, 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.160 but we like each other, Katie character, don't we We like? Yes, 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.600 I admire you. I like you. I think you're really smart, 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.280 really funny, and really good at what you do. So, 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.079 speaking of that, how did you get into this crazy business? 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.880 I know you went to Georgetown, you started writing for 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.920 your school newspaper. You could call the Washington Post to 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.520 bitch them out about an artist, which made me laugh 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.040 because you thought that they did a big bad job 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.840 covering something at Georgetown. Yeah I did, I did. I 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.079 was mad at them for a piece and if you 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.120 outdate myself, Roberto Dabizon, remember him from Nicaragua, the awful 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.760 killer of women and children at Nicaragua, he led the 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.360 desk squads, and so I thought it was irresponsible they 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.400 didn't do a good job covering him. So, you know 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.800 what I thought was really interesting about that story, Kara, 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.040 though you called, and I don't remember the editor to 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.720 whom you spoke, it's what's Larry Kramer. So Larry Kramer, 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.160 which I really thought was cool, said come in and 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.800 talk to me about it. Now. If he hadn't done that, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.000 do you think you would have gotten into journalism anyway? 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.120 That's a good question. Yes, I was. I was already 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.080 really writing a lot. Yes, percent. I think getting that 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.440 break to go to the Washington Post was a big deal. Um. 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.600 And it was a big deal too because it you know, 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.480 you know how it elevates you when you go where 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.240 did you start? You started out like a small I 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.800 started at ABC News in Washington, getting Frank frendin tam 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.360 Sandwich is, making coffee and passing out xeroxes of the Rundown. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.120 Guess what I did? Delivered mail? You know that? And 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.360 you know what was really interesting about working from the beginning, 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:11.720 as I was in the mail room and I did 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:13.760 night news aid and things like that at the Washington 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:15.600 Post when I was younger, when I was in college, 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.719 was that you understand the dynamics of politics of a 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.360 newsroom much better from a lower wrong. I don't know 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.640 if you did. I learned that really talented people weren't 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.599 quite as difficult as the less talented people. Yeah, I 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.600 don't know if I learned that, but I did learn 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:33.200 through osmosis, just kind of how a newsroom worked. I 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.200 think it's sort of feeds your curiosity. You watch people 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.040 who you admire, who you think are good, who are tough, 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.160 um and um. I also think it makes you think, hey, 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.520 if they can do it, I can do it, because 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.080 they're not that great, right exactly. And I think I 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:49.880 took I think you probably did the same thing. I 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:52.400 took every opportunity I got, every time someone handed me 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.760 a chance, I took it. And like, oh, someone go 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.040 to the Smithsonian to write about this dumb like rock 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.000 collection story, and I just said, I'll do it, you 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.200 know what I mean, I'll do it. Was my definitely 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.400 right say yes to everything, everything. And I think that 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.840 is a really important, you know, and a valuable piece 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.600 of advice for people starting out, don't you, Kara, Yeah, 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:12.000 I do absolutely think one of the things it was 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:13.679 more than yes, I just I didn't just say yes, 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.280 I just I literally would do whatever kind of thing. 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:17.960 And I think I you know, one of the things 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:19.160 I was talking to some of the other day, they 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:20.320 were like, what do you regret? And I'm like, I 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.000 didn't really travel. I went right to work like I worked. 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.000 I think you'd probably did the same thing. Is I 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.440 didn't like take time off. I didn't like go and 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.480 find myself in you know, Thailand. I know for me, 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.840 work is like oxygen. You know, I have to work. 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:35.960 I and and I know you feel the same way. 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.760 And I'm wondering I didn't realize. I feel like I 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:40.560 know a lot about you, but I don't think I 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.800 knew that your dad died when you were just five 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.760 years old. Um, and and he had a cerebral hemorrhage 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.480 and you know it. Yeah, And he was how old, Kara, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.280 thirty four years old, which is so heartbreaking. And you 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.320 know that was the age Ellie was when Jay died, 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.680 my my late husband. And do you remember for your dad? 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.200 You know. It's funny. I do in bits and pieces, 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:04.720 and I don't know how much she does. You should. 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.920 You know, a lot of people whose parents died a 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.040 young age or or something called highly functional because they 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.600 become like half their life goes away. Really, if you 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.760 think about it, if you're five, you don't have much 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.360 reference to other friends and family and things that you 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.640 reference your parents pretty much, and so you get highly 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.920 functional because the worst thing in the world happened to 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:24.720 you and you survived. And I think a lot of 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.240 people kids whose parents died a young age, but they 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.760 just move faster because they realize, you know, the ephemorality 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.080 of life. And then at the same time, um, they 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.520 can deal with things. Things don't bother them that much, 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.440 like both negative and positive. You want to be bothered 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.720 by certain things in life, but you definitely roll on through. 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.120 Is your mom still living? Yes she is? Oh, yes, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.320 you do. You find me worried about her a lot 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:47.600 because the one thing that I've noticed, and I had 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.960 talked with Carrie, my younger daughter, about this because Ellie 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.600 was at such a formative age. Carrie was just two 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.960 and Ellie had just turned I guess was six. It 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.440 had turned six, and she gets a lot of anxiety 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.480 about me because I think she doesn't you know, I'm 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.520 her only parent and do you feel that way about 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:11.720 your mom? No? And I'm sorry. We're an Italian family, 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.200 so no, I do not worry about it sometimes, like 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.920 she loves her Fox News. Let me just say so, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.040 that's been a great interesting you guys not talk about 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.920 politics at the thanks table. Shut up. I had to 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.480 throw out of Thanksgiving one because she voted for Rink Santorum. 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.680 But that's in a long story. She said she wouldn't 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.800 because he was for anti gay stuff, and I said, 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.000 you can't vote for him and continue to have Thanksgiving 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.720 in New York City and she everywhere. She's in Mexico 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.280 City right now. It's interesting that she's quite a she's 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.800 like an anti name kind of person. Uh yeah, Fox 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.360 his his poison her brain completely. But but she's okay. 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:49.880 She's pretty funny. Um, you like girl, you'd like her, Katie, 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.000 she's fun. Oh yeah, she sounds fun. We'll have to 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.480 take a little lunch or something and just not talk 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.240 about politics too. But she doesn't like Trump so much. 0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.720 But she you know, she loves Fox News. Oddly, she does. 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.280 She again't stand Trump. So listen after wait, I just 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.280 want to do a little more of your career stuff. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.480 So after the Washington Post. Um, I mean, you are 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.199 such a force, Kara, and you're sort of the most 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.440 well liked and feared. I've read that a million places 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.919 journalists covering in Silicon Valley. And and how did you 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.520 get so interested in covering technology? I covered Steve Case 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.000 to Mayo. Well, Um, I was here in Washington at 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.320 the Washington Post, and I covered the Internet early early on, um, 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.879 when there was a tant interchange and all this other stuff. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.360 And so I was super struck by the Internet from 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.959 a very early age. I had the Washington Post, had 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:35.720 a phone. I used a big, old, heavy one. It 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.320 was in a suitcase. Um, I was. I was riveted 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:39.639 to the idea that there was going to be a 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.080 mobile phone for some reason. Did you have one of 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.080 those like Maxwell smart car phones that looked like a 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.040 shoe box. I was not in my car, but it 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.000 was a suitcase that I brought in my car. That was. 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:50.520 And then I bought one of the you know, And 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:52.240 then I had one of the other phones that looked 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.720 like those big ones. And I had I've had early. 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:56.679 I've had phones forever. I one time was on a 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:58.399 vacation with someone I was going out with and I 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.200 was in the middle of a bay in Provincetown. It 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.000 was low tide and so I could walk out pretty 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:04.399 far and it's like it works out here, and I 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.600 think they broke up with me, right that. Yeah, No, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.119 I just went on a vacation of Mexico with the 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.240 Nelly and who was supposed to be without any internet 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.120 or anything else, and of course I managed to find 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.760 a cellular connection somewhere, managed to find the one square 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.520 foot where would come in. I did hike up the 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.719 giant hill to get there. But whatever, it's details, Well, 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:26.880 do you worry, Donny, Do you worry about tech addiction, 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.280 because that's something that actually I am worried about, not 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.040 only for myself but for people in general, because I 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.240 see my daughters. One of the hours I'm doing for 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.080 Nacio shameless Plug is talking about this technology making us 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.000 lose our humanity because it really is changing, dramatically, changing 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.399 the nature nature of our relationships. And one thing I 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.280 heard Kara from an internet expert. In an addiction expert 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.760 out in California, I interviewed Larry Rosen. He said that 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:57.360 kids are actually developing plaque in their brain because phones 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.520 and screen time is actually interrupting the mel a tonent 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.160 in their brain and increasing cortisol. And they're very, very 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.800 worried about early dementia among these addicted kids. Which wasn't 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.200 enough to freak me out. Oh my goodness, yeah, Katie, 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.439 that's terrible. I'm sorry to make the news to you, 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.399 but so I'm completely demented right now. Then I think, uh, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.560 you know, it's not to joke about it. I agree. 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:22.320 I think it's going to be a big topic this year. 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.720 I think, uh, you know, people talk about this and 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.399