Speaker 1: Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and hello listeners. You know, when
Speaker 1: you think about the news these days, Brian, you think
Speaker 1: about the two arenas that are dominating the headlines day
Speaker 1: in and day out, minute by minute, and those two
Speaker 1: arenas are probably politics and technology. And you know who
Speaker 1: understands tech better than almost anyone, including the two of us.
Speaker 1: Could it be our next guest, Kara Swisher? Wow, that's
Speaker 1: so convenient it could. Yes, this week's wonder Woman. Kara
Speaker 1: Swisher has been covering the industry for more than twenty
Speaker 1: years and is one of the most incisive and well
Speaker 1: connected players in Silicon Valley. She's such a pit bowl, Brian,
Speaker 1: but she's actually a very nice pit bowl. She started
Speaker 1: working a long time ago, actually at the Washington Post.
Speaker 1: She apparently chewed out an editor for an article that
Speaker 1: had been written about an event at Georgetown where she
Speaker 1: was a student. She ultimately got a job there. She
Speaker 1: went to the Wall Street Journal, and then she wrote
Speaker 1: a couple of books about a O Well, she started
Speaker 1: this huge tech site. I think really she was on
Speaker 1: the front lines of tech journalism back in the day, Brian,
Speaker 1: when she started All Things D with her partner Walt
Speaker 1: Mossburg and she's an entrepreneur herself. She left the Journal
Speaker 1: and all things d to start Recode and I like this.
Speaker 1: A few years back in New York Magazine described Kara
Speaker 1: as Silicon Valley's most feared and well liked journalist, which
Speaker 1: is quite a rare combo, that's for sure. Fo schizl,
Speaker 1: as the kids might say. Brian. By the way, this
Speaker 1: is a crossover episode with Kara's podcast, Recode Decode, which
Speaker 1: means a version of this conversation will dropping Kara's podcast
Speaker 1: feed as well. But sadly for you, Brian, I'm flying
Speaker 1: solo this time and I'm missing you. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: want to get in the way of the two alpha women.
Speaker 1: So you have your conversation. Keep me out of trouble, please,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna be excited to listen. Thanks Brian. Karen
Speaker 1: and I covered a lot of ground from how she
Speaker 1: got into the business of journalism in college using her
Speaker 1: trademark Hutzpah Hutzpah Hotspa. We also talked about our respective
Speaker 1: careers and we kick things off by talking about Snapchat,
Speaker 1: of all things. Well, let me ask you about Snapchat
Speaker 1: because I want to not only talk to you about
Speaker 1: some of these big media companies and get the latest
Speaker 1: skinny on it. But I also want to talk about you, Kac.
Speaker 1: But first, you know, so, I know Evan Spiegel had
Speaker 1: a good quarter. I know that investors were a little heartened,
Speaker 1: but it seems like Instagram really took the wind out
Speaker 1: of his sales with Insta Stories, which I'm totally obsessed with,
Speaker 1: which is actually a sickness which will will discuss later.
Speaker 1: But UM, tell me what's going on with Snapchat. I
Speaker 1: know they did a redesign and people were sad about
Speaker 1: it when the latest on that my son texted me
Speaker 1: is like, nobody likes this redesign. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: these companies redesigned continually. They're always shifting and changing, and
Speaker 1: you know, Facebook had twenty ones that people didn't like,
Speaker 1: so I think that I think they just have to
Speaker 1: go with the way they want to do it and
Speaker 1: then the best and people will. Yeah, I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't obsess on redesigns unless they're just truly awful, like
Speaker 1: a new coke, like new you know, something really doesn't work, um,
Speaker 1: and people get people get used to the way they're
Speaker 1: using these things, So I don't over index on that
Speaker 1: UM that said, you know, they've got to be very
Speaker 1: careful because what happened is years ago Facebook tried to
Speaker 1: copies try to buy Snapchat. First of all, Facebook is
Speaker 1: essentially they're mortal, not their mortal enemy. They're they're killer really,
Speaker 1: They're they're trying to kill off Snapchat. UM, and they
Speaker 1: bought they try to buy Snapchat, and he put it off.
Speaker 1: He's a really interesting and visionary entrepreneur, Evan Spiel. I
Speaker 1: think every time I talked to him, always fascinated, and
Speaker 1: that's I can't say that with everybody I talked to UM.
Speaker 1: And he's he's got a big sense of where things
Speaker 1: are going. And they really do have an advantage in
Speaker 1: that it's not a twitchy medium at all, even though
Speaker 1: I don't use it that much and I do know
Speaker 1: how to use it, UM, but it's a much it's
Speaker 1: a different it's a communications meeting a lot more like
Speaker 1: we chat in China, UM if you if you ever
Speaker 1: used that one. But Facebook had just decided to try
Speaker 1: to kill it, and so they try something I think
Speaker 1: it was called poke or something like that, which is
Speaker 1: just an awful name for a medium. UM. Based on
Speaker 1: the pokes on Facebook essentially UM, and that didn't work
Speaker 1: and didn't catch on UM. And then they did it,
Speaker 1: used Instagram to do this, to do Instagram stories UM.
Speaker 1: And I had Kevin H. Sistram, who was the founder
Speaker 1: of Instagram, on my podcast and he you know, most
Speaker 1: the people complained about it. They basically thought it was
Speaker 1: shoplifting or plagiarism, you know, in terms of how they
Speaker 1: borrowed what Snapchat was doing. And he said, look, we
Speaker 1: are doing exactly the same thing they're doing. But someone
Speaker 1: invented the car radio. Should we not make better car radios?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? That's that was his argument.
Speaker 1: We're making a better car radio, and good for them
Speaker 1: for inventing the car radio, but too bad. And I
Speaker 1: think he was talking about the itera of nature of
Speaker 1: technologies that people build on, just like jobs and Gates stole.
Speaker 1: They borrowed the stuff from xerox park, the graphical user interface,
Speaker 1: it happens, it happens again. And I think the problem
Speaker 1: for Snapchat is that Facebook can just roll eventually will
Speaker 1: get it right, just like Microsoft did a million times
Speaker 1: on a bunch of other tech companies. So what does
Speaker 1: that mean for Evan Spiegel and Snapchat. How does Instagram compare, Well,
Speaker 1: he's so creative. I so it is Kevin's Sistram by
Speaker 1: the way, who runs Instagram. Um, but I think it's hard.
Speaker 1: I think it's super hard to compete. I mean, the
Speaker 1: ear of big tech companies now is really here. Um.
Speaker 1: It was talking to someone the other day of a
Speaker 1: venture capitalist named Sarah Tavil, and she said, it's really
Speaker 1: hard to do innovative companies anymore because and there will
Speaker 1: be innovative companies, it's not going to never stop. But
Speaker 1: the powerful companies Apple, Google, Facebook, Um, Amazon and Amazon
Speaker 1: are just it just creates a like a really difficult
Speaker 1: and they're buying up companies and they're they're being innovative
Speaker 1: and iterative themselves, and so it makes it super hard
Speaker 1: for smaller companies to break in. Facebook has gotten a
Speaker 1: lot of bad press lately Russia and about all kinds
Speaker 1: of things. So give me can you just catch me
Speaker 1: up on what's happening in Facebook? And what do you
Speaker 1: think the outcome is going to be of a lot
Speaker 1: of this criticism. Well, you know it's interesting. I was
Speaker 1: on you don't follow Twitter that carefully, but I had
Speaker 1: a debate with Facebook executives this weekend on Twitter. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to go back. They lost, they lost. It's gone,
Speaker 1: o Katie. Yeah. No, Here's what they did is they're
Speaker 1: they're very sensitive. First of all, they did a very
Speaker 1: slow roll about the uses of their platform by Russia. UM,
Speaker 1: in terms of initially last year, Mark Zuckerberg said there
Speaker 1: was no impact whatsoever. They said that again even recently, right,
Speaker 1: they did say the election, which is the unknowable thing. Yes,
Speaker 1: well they wanted to. You know, they just keep saying it,
Speaker 1: and they maybe it's like Trump, right, they just keep saying,
Speaker 1: the crowds are bigger, the crowds are bigger than crowds
Speaker 1: were here. UM. I think one of the things is
Speaker 1: they're very you know, they're very technical and mathematical people,
Speaker 1: and so they're being very accurate about certain things they're
Speaker 1: saying and and focusing in on and missing the forest
Speaker 1: through the trees. You know, a lot of this stuff unquantifiable.
Speaker 1: Some of it is, some of it is. But I
Speaker 1: think the overall issue is that they're they're they're technically
Speaker 1: saying these ads were not run. Until these ads were,
Speaker 1: they weren't talking about the content on the platform. It's
Speaker 1: so much larger and bigger than they're discussing. But technically
Speaker 1: their ads were bought at various times, and so their
Speaker 1: their whole premise around this is that these ads didn't
Speaker 1: sway the election, and everyone else is like, well, there's
Speaker 1: an indictment by Robert Mueller that shows how they used
Speaker 1: primarily Facebook and Instagram to invade the system and take
Speaker 1: advantage of the system. And I liken it to I mean,
Speaker 1: if you think about it, what if Russia had bought
Speaker 1: all the advertisements on a network or run the content
Speaker 1: of a network during a presidential election and swayed it.
Speaker 1: And they don't. They're not, they're not. They don't want
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for the fact that their platform was
Speaker 1: used by a malevolent power to create discord in our
Speaker 1: country and that doesn't seem to bother them as much
Speaker 1: as technically our ads weren't bought into here, the platforms
Speaker 1: were used and abused, because you know, it's sort of
Speaker 1: like why would you rob a bank. That's where the
Speaker 1: money is, that's where the people are. So these platforms,
Speaker 1: and Facebook being the biggest one, have been much abused
Speaker 1: by malevolent powers. So what's going to happen like when
Speaker 1: you think about Facebook, Karen, you think about say, YouTube,
Speaker 1: which has also had a lot of problems with I
Speaker 1: just intornography and inappropriate content, and advertisers are now shying
Speaker 1: away from that. I mean, what what is the solution
Speaker 1: for these companies with they you know, the genies out
Speaker 1: of the bottle? Well, I just had a long interview
Speaker 1: with Susan Wijiski at one of our events earlier this week. Actually,
Speaker 1: who's the CEO? Very thoughtful person. I just had her
Speaker 1: on an NBC MSNBC show. I did. I really like her.
Speaker 1: She's great, She's great. But I mean they're trying very
Speaker 1: hard because they know that these platforms are massive. I
Speaker 1: mean the they I think it's a trillion hours a
Speaker 1: week or some it's some enormous number that's being uploaded
Speaker 1: to YouTube and all these social media platforms, and so
Speaker 1: the ability of them to monitor it is enormous. They don't.
Speaker 1: There's obviously people can't do it. It's not it's not
Speaker 1: feasible for people to do it's not scalable. And then secondly,
Speaker 1: the technology around AI and other machine learning in order
Speaker 1: to to maybe control this better is still in its
Speaker 1: infancy and very problematic. And so they they're trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how to maintain order, I guess, and at
Speaker 1: the same time pretend they're not media companies. And so
Speaker 1: when I interview them, I do a lot of well
Speaker 1: are you immediate? No, we're not where I think Susan
Speaker 1: was like where a technology platform whose end result is
Speaker 1: media or something. It was something like really convoluted ways.
Speaker 1: Do you think they're so reticent to be you know,
Speaker 1: because it requires responsibility, because it requires responsibility there. That
Speaker 1: means they're responsible. Like the New York Times cares if
Speaker 1: it's wrong, right, you know, whatever people think of the
Speaker 1: New York Times or whatever liberal media or whatever. You know,
Speaker 1: working at any of these institutions, we care when we're wrong.
Speaker 1: We say we're wrong. We like correct and it matters.
Speaker 1: There's a great deal of heaviness to the responsibility. Well,
Speaker 1: they're like I think they say they're the pipes. They're not.
Speaker 1: That goes through it, right, even as they ruin the
Speaker 1: business plans of every publisher, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's really they have to take it's a different kind
Speaker 1: of media company. But they're a media company. But the
Speaker 1: minute they admit their a media company, it means they
Speaker 1: have responsibility for what's on their platform, and and there's
Speaker 1: lots of laws why they don't want that to happen
Speaker 1: to like they don't they want to just say they're
Speaker 1: at the nine platform essentially. Do you think that's ever
Speaker 1: going to change? I mean, what, how do you see
Speaker 1: this all? You know? No, I don't think that there
Speaker 1: would be any regulation. There's there's always talk about it.
Speaker 1: And obviously I'm interviewing Corey Booker and others. The Democrats
Speaker 1: are suddenly which were the friend of internet, are now
Speaker 1: turning on the Internet, which is really interesting. Um and
Speaker 1: so we'll see if the Democrats get in power, if
Speaker 1: there's more regulation. But so far the US and where
Speaker 1: most of this is taking place, has been toothless. Europe,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, there's a woman named Marguerite Vestiger
Speaker 1: who's been very tough on all the big media companies
Speaker 1: in Europe. She's a she's a commissioner at the EU.
Speaker 1: I think it's for competition. I forget her long title,
Speaker 1: but she's vanta. I did a great podcast an interview
Speaker 1: with her. She's she's really an interesting force and she's
Speaker 1: the one that's levied all these fines on these companies
Speaker 1: and and really has the teeth to really bother them
Speaker 1: in these countries. And I think the European Union and
Speaker 1: Europe has a very different point of view on privacy,
Speaker 1: on abuse, on all kinds of things that that is
Speaker 1: problematic for tech US tech companies. But in the US,
Speaker 1: you know, they roll over. Everybody rolls over. And obviously
Speaker 1: our Twitter in chief, our troll in chiefs Donald Trump
Speaker 1: is using the medium to his own advantage. It's time
Speaker 1: to take a quick break. We'll have more of my
Speaker 1: conversation with Kara Swisher right after this. And now back
Speaker 1: to my conversation with Kara Swisher. You know, nobody knows this,
Speaker 1: but we like each other, Katie character, don't we We like? Yes,
Speaker 1: I admire you. I like you. I think you're really smart,
Speaker 1: really funny, and really good at what you do. So,
Speaker 1: speaking of that, how did you get into this crazy business?
Speaker 1: I know you went to Georgetown, you started writing for
Speaker 1: your school newspaper. You could call the Washington Post to
Speaker 1: bitch them out about an artist, which made me laugh
Speaker 1: because you thought that they did a big bad job
Speaker 1: covering something at Georgetown. Yeah I did, I did. I
Speaker 1: was mad at them for a piece and if you
Speaker 1: outdate myself, Roberto Dabizon, remember him from Nicaragua, the awful
Speaker 1: killer of women and children at Nicaragua, he led the
Speaker 1: desk squads, and so I thought it was irresponsible they
Speaker 1: didn't do a good job covering him. So, you know
Speaker 1: what I thought was really interesting about that story, Kara,
Speaker 1: though you called, and I don't remember the editor to
Speaker 1: whom you spoke, it's what's Larry Kramer. So Larry Kramer,
Speaker 1: which I really thought was cool, said come in and
Speaker 1: talk to me about it. Now. If he hadn't done that,
Speaker 1: do you think you would have gotten into journalism anyway?
Speaker 1: That's a good question. Yes, I was. I was already
Speaker 1: really writing a lot. Yes, percent. I think getting that
Speaker 1: break to go to the Washington Post was a big deal. Um.
Speaker 1: And it was a big deal too because it you know,
Speaker 1: you know how it elevates you when you go where
Speaker 1: did you start? You started out like a small I
Speaker 1: started at ABC News in Washington, getting Frank frendin tam
Speaker 1: Sandwich is, making coffee and passing out xeroxes of the Rundown.
Speaker 1: Guess what I did? Delivered mail? You know that? And
Speaker 1: you know what was really interesting about working from the beginning,
Speaker 1: as I was in the mail room and I did
Speaker 1: night news aid and things like that at the Washington
Speaker 1: Post when I was younger, when I was in college,
Speaker 1: was that you understand the dynamics of politics of a
Speaker 1: newsroom much better from a lower wrong. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you did. I learned that really talented people weren't
Speaker 1: quite as difficult as the less talented people. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I learned that, but I did learn
Speaker 1: through osmosis, just kind of how a newsroom worked. I
Speaker 1: think it's sort of feeds your curiosity. You watch people
Speaker 1: who you admire, who you think are good, who are tough,
Speaker 1: um and um. I also think it makes you think, hey,
Speaker 1: if they can do it, I can do it, because
Speaker 1: they're not that great, right exactly. And I think I
Speaker 1: took I think you probably did the same thing. I
Speaker 1: took every opportunity I got, every time someone handed me
Speaker 1: a chance, I took it. And like, oh, someone go
Speaker 1: to the Smithsonian to write about this dumb like rock
Speaker 1: collection story, and I just said, I'll do it, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, I'll do it. Was my definitely
Speaker 1: right say yes to everything, everything. And I think that
Speaker 1: is a really important, you know, and a valuable piece
Speaker 1: of advice for people starting out, don't you, Kara, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do absolutely think one of the things it was
Speaker 1: more than yes, I just I didn't just say yes,
Speaker 1: I just I literally would do whatever kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And I think I you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: I was talking to some of the other day, they
Speaker 1: were like, what do you regret? And I'm like, I
Speaker 1: didn't really travel. I went right to work like I worked.
Speaker 1: I think you'd probably did the same thing. Is I
Speaker 1: didn't like take time off. I didn't like go and
Speaker 1: find myself in you know, Thailand. I know for me,
Speaker 1: work is like oxygen. You know, I have to work.
Speaker 1: I and and I know you feel the same way.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering I didn't realize. I feel like I
Speaker 1: know a lot about you, but I don't think I
Speaker 1: knew that your dad died when you were just five
Speaker 1: years old. Um, and and he had a cerebral hemorrhage
Speaker 1: and you know it. Yeah, And he was how old, Kara,
Speaker 1: thirty four years old, which is so heartbreaking. And you
Speaker 1: know that was the age Ellie was when Jay died,
Speaker 1: my my late husband. And do you remember for your dad?
Speaker 1: You know. It's funny. I do in bits and pieces,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how much she does. You should.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people whose parents died a
Speaker 1: young age or or something called highly functional because they
Speaker 1: become like half their life goes away. Really, if you
Speaker 1: think about it, if you're five, you don't have much
Speaker 1: reference to other friends and family and things that you
Speaker 1: reference your parents pretty much, and so you get highly
Speaker 1: functional because the worst thing in the world happened to
Speaker 1: you and you survived. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people kids whose parents died a young age, but they
Speaker 1: just move faster because they realize, you know, the ephemorality
Speaker 1: of life. And then at the same time, um, they
Speaker 1: can deal with things. Things don't bother them that much,
Speaker 1: like both negative and positive. You want to be bothered
Speaker 1: by certain things in life, but you definitely roll on through.
Speaker 1: Is your mom still living? Yes she is? Oh, yes,
Speaker 1: you do. You find me worried about her a lot
Speaker 1: because the one thing that I've noticed, and I had
Speaker 1: talked with Carrie, my younger daughter, about this because Ellie
Speaker 1: was at such a formative age. Carrie was just two
Speaker 1: and Ellie had just turned I guess was six. It
Speaker 1: had turned six, and she gets a lot of anxiety
Speaker 1: about me because I think she doesn't you know, I'm
Speaker 1: her only parent and do you feel that way about
Speaker 1: your mom? No? And I'm sorry. We're an Italian family,
Speaker 1: so no, I do not worry about it sometimes, like
Speaker 1: she loves her Fox News. Let me just say so,
Speaker 1: that's been a great interesting you guys not talk about
Speaker 1: politics at the thanks table. Shut up. I had to
Speaker 1: throw out of Thanksgiving one because she voted for Rink Santorum.
Speaker 1: But that's in a long story. She said she wouldn't
Speaker 1: because he was for anti gay stuff, and I said,
Speaker 1: you can't vote for him and continue to have Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: in New York City and she everywhere. She's in Mexico
Speaker 1: City right now. It's interesting that she's quite a she's
Speaker 1: like an anti name kind of person. Uh yeah, Fox
Speaker 1: his his poison her brain completely. But but she's okay.
Speaker 1: She's pretty funny. Um, you like girl, you'd like her, Katie,
Speaker 1: she's fun. Oh yeah, she sounds fun. We'll have to
Speaker 1: take a little lunch or something and just not talk
Speaker 1: about politics too. But she doesn't like Trump so much.
Speaker 1: But she you know, she loves Fox News. Oddly, she does.
Speaker 1: She again't stand Trump. So listen after wait, I just
Speaker 1: want to do a little more of your career stuff.
Speaker 1: So after the Washington Post. Um, I mean, you are
Speaker 1: such a force, Kara, and you're sort of the most
Speaker 1: well liked and feared. I've read that a million places
Speaker 1: journalists covering in Silicon Valley. And and how did you
Speaker 1: get so interested in covering technology? I covered Steve Case
Speaker 1: to Mayo. Well, Um, I was here in Washington at
Speaker 1: the Washington Post, and I covered the Internet early early on, um,
Speaker 1: when there was a tant interchange and all this other stuff.
Speaker 1: And so I was super struck by the Internet from
Speaker 1: a very early age. I had the Washington Post, had
Speaker 1: a phone. I used a big, old, heavy one. It
Speaker 1: was in a suitcase. Um, I was. I was riveted
Speaker 1: to the idea that there was going to be a
Speaker 1: mobile phone for some reason. Did you have one of
Speaker 1: those like Maxwell smart car phones that looked like a
Speaker 1: shoe box. I was not in my car, but it
Speaker 1: was a suitcase that I brought in my car. That was.
Speaker 1: And then I bought one of the you know, And
Speaker 1: then I had one of the other phones that looked
Speaker 1: like those big ones. And I had I've had early.
Speaker 1: I've had phones forever. I one time was on a
Speaker 1: vacation with someone I was going out with and I
Speaker 1: was in the middle of a bay in Provincetown. It
Speaker 1: was low tide and so I could walk out pretty
Speaker 1: far and it's like it works out here, and I
Speaker 1: think they broke up with me, right that. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I just went on a vacation of Mexico with the
Speaker 1: Nelly and who was supposed to be without any internet
Speaker 1: or anything else, and of course I managed to find
Speaker 1: a cellular connection somewhere, managed to find the one square
Speaker 1: foot where would come in. I did hike up the
Speaker 1: giant hill to get there. But whatever, it's details, Well,
Speaker 1: do you worry, Donny, Do you worry about tech addiction,
Speaker 1: because that's something that actually I am worried about, not
Speaker 1: only for myself but for people in general, because I
Speaker 1: see my daughters. One of the hours I'm doing for
Speaker 1: Nacio shameless Plug is talking about this technology making us
Speaker 1: lose our humanity because it really is changing, dramatically, changing
Speaker 1: the nature nature of our relationships. And one thing I
Speaker 1: heard Kara from an internet expert. In an addiction expert
Speaker 1: out in California, I interviewed Larry Rosen. He said that
Speaker 1: kids are actually developing plaque in their brain because phones
Speaker 1: and screen time is actually interrupting the mel a tonent
Speaker 1: in their brain and increasing cortisol. And they're very, very
Speaker 1: worried about early dementia among these addicted kids. Which wasn't
Speaker 1: enough to freak me out. Oh my goodness, yeah, Katie,
Speaker 1: that's terrible. I'm sorry to make the news to you,
Speaker 1: but so I'm completely demented right now. Then I think, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not to joke about it. I agree.
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a big topic this year.
Speaker 1: I think, uh, you know, people talk about this and
Speaker 1: again this is the next wave of hit hits. The
Speaker 1: companies like Facebook definitely and sing you hear more more
Speaker 1: people making noise. One of the guys I interviewed, Tristan Tris,
Speaker 1: who I just think is I love him, Kara. He's
Speaker 1: such a remarkable young man. He's thirty three years old.
Speaker 1: He quick Google right because he said was it Google
Speaker 1: or Google? Because he felt like these tech companies are
Speaker 1: manipulating us so much and they're making us addicted by
Speaker 1: and I see it taking same theme, not taking responsibility
Speaker 1: for what they're doing. And so one of the things,
Speaker 1: you know, people are liking him. I'm media companies are
Speaker 1: like him to dissigarette companies. I think that's probably taking
Speaker 1: it slightly too far. But there is uh there there
Speaker 1: is a question of how much warning people should have,
Speaker 1: how much knowing about how much science needs to happen.
Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons I wanted to do this hour.
Speaker 1: You know, we're operating and it's like minute by minute,
Speaker 1: and nobody I think in the media culture takes a
Speaker 1: step back and says, wait a second, let's take a
Speaker 1: look at some of these big issues. Because I think
Speaker 1: this is such an incredibly transformational time in almost every arena,
Speaker 1: but nobody is sort of debating it or talking about it.
Speaker 1: They don't want to. These internet companies don't want to
Speaker 1: do that because I think what they've been doing is
Speaker 1: growing at a breaknext speed. And one of the things
Speaker 1: I started to do last year, right when they went
Speaker 1: to visit Trump, Remember they all trooped up to Trump
Speaker 1: Tower and and didn't say anything about immigration, And I
Speaker 1: had I wrote one of these skull the Scullly columns
Speaker 1: about it, talking about how dare you do this without
Speaker 1: discussing immigration? This guy has been so anti immigrant, you know,
Speaker 1: which has been the fuel for Silicon Valley. Essentially all
Speaker 1: the major companies founded by immers Elon Musk, Sergei Brand, Saton, Adela,
Speaker 1: uh Seve Jobs parents father was an immigrant, um and
Speaker 1: so in eight of them, you know, Susan Wachsky's parents
Speaker 1: are from father's from country. UM. So I was I
Speaker 1: was really angry at them for doing that by walking
Speaker 1: up there, and they were all like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: we'll get to it. He's not he doesn't mean what
Speaker 1: he says. I'm like, he means what he says, you know,
Speaker 1: around this topic, as he said it so many times
Speaker 1: and was one of his basic promises to his constituency.
Speaker 1: And so I think what they want to do is
Speaker 1: act as if they are the saviors of humanity and
Speaker 1: not take the responsibility for what their inventions create. Um.
Speaker 1: And that and tech addiction is just one of the many.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, you at some point you do,
Speaker 1: like I get, I get a lot of push back
Speaker 1: this past year like you're such a skull, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: you need to grow up and start to understand not
Speaker 1: just tech addiction, but job displacement, Like what's going to
Speaker 1: happen around AI and automation. Well, let's can we talk
Speaker 1: about that too, because that's that's something that that I
Speaker 1: addressed in this hour of jobs are suscept doble to
Speaker 1: automation eliminating them by the early twenty thirties. I know
Speaker 1: you did a town hall series with MSNBC about that
Speaker 1: and with jobs in the future. This is something that
Speaker 1: I've been really interested in because you know, it's a job.
Speaker 1: These jobs are not being lost to globalization, they're being
Speaker 1: lost to automation and and so so I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a huge dilemma and I think it's actually part of
Speaker 1: what's feeding white working class frustration. Another hour I'm doing
Speaker 1: on that GEO. So what what is the solution here?
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, because you know, I got
Speaker 1: the inspiration from doing that series eMac from Mark Andres
Speaker 1: and I who've been arguing for decades. How he and
Speaker 1: I argue about all kinds of things, But one of
Speaker 1: the things he was telling about was that it's like
Speaker 1: the farming to manufacturing. Definitely, And look except except that
Speaker 1: that happened over seventy some years and it was a
Speaker 1: very and it was huge political uprising because of it,
Speaker 1: and now in this age of social media and also
Speaker 1: constant and repeated media everywhere, people's feeling, you know, so
Speaker 1: apart from each other, and so part is in it's
Speaker 1: a it's a powder keke as far as I can,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you really create agree, you know.
Speaker 1: Steve Case has talked about this. J. D. Vance is
Speaker 1: great book, Killabilly Elegy. There is a massive transition about
Speaker 1: to happen around jobs that people are not paying attention to,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be one of them. Wrote
Speaker 1: a great book based on a Harvard Business Review article
Speaker 1: called just called White Working Class, which talks a lot
Speaker 1: about class cluelessness and cultural condescension and all just highly
Speaker 1: recommend it's such as why it say what? Who is
Speaker 1: thinking of it? That's I don't want to like say, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's not gonna be better jobs in the future that
Speaker 1: but who what are we gonna do about it? One
Speaker 1: of the things that Nellie just interviewed Robert rich who
Speaker 1: was the former Labor Secretary Beery, and one of the
Speaker 1: things he said in this interview, they did a New
Speaker 1: York Times thing on ei AI. It was an event
Speaker 1: and one of the things that I thought was the
Speaker 1: best quote that came out of it was you were
Speaker 1: either this is universal. She was asked a universal basic income,
Speaker 1: which is you pay people essentially when jobs get lost.
Speaker 1: And it's you know a lot of it's very controversial.
Speaker 1: It feels like communism a little bit, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It's a question, but it's one of the
Speaker 1: ideas of how to deal with this joblessness and uh
Speaker 1: and eventual joblessness. Um. He said, you either are gonna
Speaker 1: pay pay then these numbers to pay people to not
Speaker 1: work essentially, or you're gonna pay to bulletproof you're tesla
Speaker 1: like And I was like, oh wow, that's because people
Speaker 1: are gonn You're gonna create this sort of Brazil like
Speaker 1: situation where there's very war and very rich. Um. And
Speaker 1: and that's going to be We've got to really my
Speaker 1: question is who's thinking about it? Who among our Is
Speaker 1: it the tech companies whose responsibilities that the tech companies
Speaker 1: is a government? Is it's citizens? I think, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's all the above. But you're right, it's very
Speaker 1: frustrating that people are just kind of have their head
Speaker 1: in the sands about sand about this. Zoe Baird is
Speaker 1: working very hard on this thing called skillful and she's
Speaker 1: working with Governor hick and Looper in Colorado to try
Speaker 1: to come up with a way to retrain and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, especially displaced workers. But I think our whole
Speaker 1: education system needs to be reevaluated. I went to Johnstown, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: where they're of the high school students are involved in
Speaker 1: vocational training, and I just think that this we just
Speaker 1: have to really kind of everybody has to put their
Speaker 1: their thinking where it's going and where it's going because
Speaker 1: some of these jobs you don't even I mean some
Speaker 1: of the jobs. There was a great story in The
Speaker 1: York Times recently about Sweden that they were doing robots
Speaker 1: are doing mining essentially right, and all kinds of like
Speaker 1: why should people like this whole thing about Kentucky going
Speaker 1: back to coal mining. People probably shouldn't coal mine like this.
Speaker 1: It's very dangerous. It's you know, there's certain jobs, wrote
Speaker 1: jobs that maybe people shouldn't do anymore, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: good for people in the first place, So why just
Speaker 1: have them there when robots can do it better? What's hard? Karras,
Speaker 1: You know, these are generational, traditional jobs that have been
Speaker 1: passed on. It is part of certain people's DNA. So
Speaker 1: we have to rethink education, rethink all the different possibilities
Speaker 1: and how from the get go, from pre k on
Speaker 1: we start orienting people towards the jobs of the future.
Speaker 1: Thank you who knows, who knows? Thank you, Thank you
Speaker 1: President correct Um. But but but the thing is, uh,
Speaker 1: we can't. They can't even decide in lunch. They can't
Speaker 1: pass a dreamer's Act. And this is like, for example,
Speaker 1: the Dreamer's Act thing is just driving me crazy because
Speaker 1: it's literally an advertisement to the rest of the world
Speaker 1: that we don't like innovation, we don't like innovative people,
Speaker 1: we don't like people who work harder. It is such
Speaker 1: a message to the rest of the world, which again
Speaker 1: we have. The technology and innovation in this country has
Speaker 1: been fueled by immigrants, no matter how you slice of
Speaker 1: people coming in, fresh ideas, fresh thinking, and and the
Speaker 1: and so hard king you know exactly the people all
Speaker 1: you know, the scrappy people who have something to prove
Speaker 1: who I mean, those are the people who change the world,
Speaker 1: not people who you know, pardon the expression, are born
Speaker 1: with the silver spoon in their mouth. Right. And the
Speaker 1: problem is, I think one of the things you know,
Speaker 1: we can get a diversity in the next section. But
Speaker 1: I do need to talk to you about Yahoo. I
Speaker 1: need to. And then when I talked to you about
Speaker 1: like how you're able to get so many people to
Speaker 1: talk to you, and how you stay in the business
Speaker 1: without pissing so many people off, they never talk to
Speaker 1: you again. Well, I'm about to piss everyone off. I
Speaker 1: think at the end of my career is gonna be
Speaker 1: one big disaster. No, You're just like a Roman candle Kadie.
Speaker 1: I'm going out big and ugly. Um. So the finish
Speaker 1: of this section, one of the things I think is
Speaker 1: what I think about when I think about these ideas
Speaker 1: around not accepting people in this country and around and
Speaker 1: keeping in an open borders and things like that in
Speaker 1: order to do this um is that there is a
Speaker 1: like including around the issues of diversity, to like not
Speaker 1: bringing not thinking bigger. There is a I have this
Speaker 1: vision in my head of a small girl in Afghanistan
Speaker 1: who knows how to solve cancer. It's in her brain,
Speaker 1: like who is going to be the one that doesn't?
Speaker 1: Who will never get there because of all kinds of
Speaker 1: issues either immigration or discrimination or whatever there there are.
Speaker 1: We don't know who hasn't been able to invent things
Speaker 1: because of the barriers we put in people's way that
Speaker 1: we could remove and create a better place. And I
Speaker 1: know it sounds like sort of pie in the sky,
Speaker 1: but the more barriers we put in front of people
Speaker 1: to be innovative, the less humanity benefits. I agree with you,
Speaker 1: and I think the Internet is helping remove some of
Speaker 1: those barriers in terms of giving people a pathway to
Speaker 1: education and exposing them to, you know, ideas that they'd
Speaker 1: never be exposed to otherwise. Well, we're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: that more because we get you talked to James to
Speaker 1: Moore and others for your one of your that I
Speaker 1: was talking on Yahoo. Yeah, Katie, what happened? Well, I
Speaker 1: think it was a really interesting experience. I think that, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I think the real issue is many of
Speaker 1: these tech companies. I mean, it's what we were talking
Speaker 1: about earlier. They are not media companies. They do not
Speaker 1: care deeply about stories about content, about true connection. I
Speaker 1: think they care about widgets and djets and how to
Speaker 1: and delivery systems, but they aren't really super interested in
Speaker 1: you know, the vegetable soup that's running through the pipes,
Speaker 1: and um, and I think for me it was just
Speaker 1: a bit of a culture clash. I think that the problems,
Speaker 1: the challenges of making sure people got good content was
Speaker 1: just not high on their priority list, right, So what
Speaker 1: do you do? When you went in, you were thinking
Speaker 1: what a Yeah. I saw the world changing. I saw people,
Speaker 1: uh consuming information. I saw this pipeline, whether you know
Speaker 1: direct discernment, dis disintermedia or you know, using these pipes
Speaker 1: to reach people as something that was incredibly promising. And
Speaker 1: I thought Yahoo, I said to marissamr I said, do
Speaker 1: you want to be known as the company that serves
Speaker 1: up stories about the boy who lived on Ramen noodles
Speaker 1: for thirteen years? Or do you want to kind of
Speaker 1: have really important, interesting, substantive interviews. Do you want to
Speaker 1: educate and enlighten people? Do you want to raise the bar?
Speaker 1: And you know, it doesn't mean you can't have the
Speaker 1: Roman noodle story, but you could do maybe a high
Speaker 1: low thing like they do in fashion. You know, you
Speaker 1: were a sweater from burn Doors and jeans from Jay
Speaker 1: Crew whatever. So she seemed to be open, but I
Speaker 1: don't think she was ever sort of understood the commitment
Speaker 1: that would take. And I just think she had a
Speaker 1: lot of other things on her plate and fairness, and
Speaker 1: so you know I wouldn't because they were a huge company. Marriage,
Speaker 1: but it was certainly not very fulfilling for me because
Speaker 1: I had all this great content. I was getting big interviews,
Speaker 1: and it's sort of like a tree falling in the
Speaker 1: forest because no one because they didn't put it on
Speaker 1: the front page. Well they didn't put it on the
Speaker 1: front page, or they didn't really know how to. I mean,
Speaker 1: even now, they really don't have very good distributions, you know,
Speaker 1: they don't. They didn't really know how to market things properly.
Speaker 1: They didn't know how to take quality and make it scalable.
Speaker 1: And at one point, you were paying for Facebook ads?
Speaker 1: Is that correct or yourself? I did bring someone in.
Speaker 1: I wasn't no, no, no, I wasn't paying. I did
Speaker 1: bring someone in who was really an expert on micro targeting,
Speaker 1: because you know, I would say to him, how can
Speaker 1: how can my stuff get seen more? And I would,
Speaker 1: you know, say to the Yahoo folks, can we please
Speaker 1: do a newsletter. I'll totally push out everybody's content. I'll
Speaker 1: make sure everyone sees Matt Buy's column, or I'll make
Speaker 1: sure that people see Josie's fashion thing. You know people
Speaker 1: they hired you need to be Yeah, they hired some
Speaker 1: big names and yet you know, they were in the
Speaker 1: witness protection program. So I said, let me help you,
Speaker 1: help them, help us, help everybody. But they just I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe it's because they were kind of at
Speaker 1: that that time and are a legacy tech company that
Speaker 1: they had kind of an attitude show to innovate. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a it's an attitude throughout tech. The
Speaker 1: content doesn't matter. They have for content. It's not even
Speaker 1: no respect. It's it's as if it's disdaining. Don't even
Speaker 1: that it's really weird. It's like, oh, it's just another
Speaker 1: thing they're pushing through the system. Essentially, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: That's why I like. I think the Secret Sauce are
Speaker 1: people who are technologically savvy but also respect and care
Speaker 1: about storytelling. And the company that I think combines those
Speaker 1: two things is going to be It's gonna win the day.
Speaker 1: And I haven't really found it yet, have you guess?
Speaker 1: By the way Box Doyes, we we tried to, but
Speaker 1: we don't own the pipes, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I do think sometimes when I talked to Evan Spiegel.
Speaker 1: I do think, well, at least he gets the concepts
Speaker 1: around it, like the idea that you differentiate or you curate,
Speaker 1: and I think that's the that's the question, is the curation.
Speaker 1: And I think that doesn't matter. I think one of
Speaker 1: the things that I found fascinating from your tenure, besides
Speaker 1: all the other things I was writing about there um,
Speaker 1: was the they made this enormously high profile higher and
Speaker 1: you are you know it was. It was a big
Speaker 1: giant higher that they made and then they literally hit
Speaker 1: you anywhere. That was so weird, right, It was just
Speaker 1: just it's a business proposition. It's not like I'm all
Speaker 1: that and a bag of ships. But like, if you
Speaker 1: are going to invest in somebody like me who has
Speaker 1: a quote unquote brand, which I hate that, but you know,
Speaker 1: who is recognizable and has a connection with people, why
Speaker 1: not leverage that. It was bizarre. I don't think they
Speaker 1: meant it in the first place. I think it was no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I think the very they never intended to do it,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't e they It sounded good, it was
Speaker 1: like a good press release, but it was sort of
Speaker 1: They hired a lot of people so it was more
Speaker 1: than a press It was something, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like that was what was interesting the whole I just
Speaker 1: was it was sort of a sidelight and I don't
Speaker 1: think it was even as cynical as just a press release.
Speaker 1: I think they thought they want no I think you're right.
Speaker 1: I think they just didn't understand what it required. And
Speaker 1: I would try to say, hey, let me bring this
Speaker 1: person in to run media who really gets it, and
Speaker 1: you know, and they just I don't know. It was
Speaker 1: it was strange. So you left because why because it
Speaker 1: then it had changed. Merris was because I just didn't
Speaker 1: see them shifting their attitudes. And you know, at some point,
Speaker 1: even under Oath, I just had to interview too. I
Speaker 1: liked him. I think he's great. I told him I
Speaker 1: thought the new name of the company should be rise
Speaker 1: Are I z E. Because it's sort of like Verizon
Speaker 1: and it's aspirational and positive. But you know, I think
Speaker 1: they've paid a lot of money to come up with
Speaker 1: Oath whatever. But anyway, so I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: I think these companies are are Maybe they'll wake up
Speaker 1: and smell the coffee, but I think they're just very
Speaker 1: lumbering and slow and so at some point ironically right,
Speaker 1: but at some point you want to do quality work
Speaker 1: and make sure that someone values what you do and
Speaker 1: make sure that they hopefully want to get it out
Speaker 1: into the world, which is increasingly fragmented by the way.
Speaker 1: Two questions of Netflix just paid Ryan Murphy a millionaire,
Speaker 1: you know, and then Shanna Rhymes as a similar Obviously
Speaker 1: Apple is just invested in a Reese Withers. When things expensive, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, you some morning television, right exactly, It's all
Speaker 1: about you. It's not about me, I don't think, but
Speaker 1: but you could consult for sure. You seem to know
Speaker 1: what a thing or two about that, um when you
Speaker 1: when you look at all that though they are, they
Speaker 1: are moving rather heavily, they are. You know, I think
Speaker 1: right now, I think that they are not super jazzed
Speaker 1: about moving into a more news space. But maybe ultimately
Speaker 1: they will be. But right now, I think they're really
Speaker 1: focused on scripted content and you know, super kind of impactful,
Speaker 1: buzzy stuff. And you know, I think in a news
Speaker 1: landscape where there is so much content everywhere, I don't
Speaker 1: know about you care, but I can. I mean, I
Speaker 1: read so many articles on my phone and I'm like,
Speaker 1: where did I read that? What was that? How did
Speaker 1: I know that? And it's disconnected. It feels very confusing.
Speaker 1: But but you're right, I think I think the landscape
Speaker 1: is continually changing and iterating, as they say, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it will be interesting to see. But the
Speaker 1: most important thing is, you know, how are we going
Speaker 1: to keep people informed and engaged in the world around them.
Speaker 1: I do think, you know from what I said earlier,
Speaker 1: that a lot of young people gen z whatever you
Speaker 1: call it, millennials really do are engaged. But we have
Speaker 1: to continue to think about how we'll continue to keep
Speaker 1: people engaged, you know, because it's so democracy. I know,
Speaker 1: what would you do right now if you were young?
Speaker 1: I mean you already if I want to be let
Speaker 1: me say everybody. Katie kirk is the hardest woman working woman.
Speaker 1: And we were having dinner and literally she was getting
Speaker 1: on You were getting on a knife, like where were
Speaker 1: you going? You were going to, like Alabama or somewhere.
Speaker 1: We're like, Katie Kurrt can rest. I know, I just
Speaker 1: love to work. I don't know why. My husband thinks
Speaker 1: I'm insane and I think you're insane. I know, I
Speaker 1: have to figure out I do feel like I have
Speaker 1: to find a better balance. But what would I do
Speaker 1: if I were starting out in the I just felt
Speaker 1: like like at one point, I'm like, you did that,
Speaker 1: Sarah Paliner if you can retire now, I know, but don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd like to be engaged in the world.
Speaker 1: I like to be talking to interesting people. And what
Speaker 1: would you do if you're young? What would you what?
Speaker 1: Are you interested now? And interested in now? Yeah? What
Speaker 1: do you mean? Because look, broadcast is sort of shifting
Speaker 1: so dramatically, and you know, you tried the Yahoo thing,
Speaker 1: although it doesn't mean that that didn't work. But are
Speaker 1: you where would you where? Where are you looked at?
Speaker 1: Or where would you go? I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: I'd like to try something more entrepreneurial because I think
Speaker 1: there's never been a better time. I mean, if you
Speaker 1: talk about disintermediation, I mean I've I do a lot
Speaker 1: on Instagram because I feel a real connection with people
Speaker 1: who follow me on Instagram. It feels a little less
Speaker 1: kind of uh, sort of cosmic than Twitter. I feel
Speaker 1: it's more community based, and I think that that's a
Speaker 1: really interesting outlet to experiment in and try different things.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'd like to do something that really,
Speaker 1: you know, at this point in my career, shines the
Speaker 1: light on other young up and coming especially female journalists,
Speaker 1: diverse journalists, people who represent all different points of view.
Speaker 1: Because the one thing we've seen Kara so clearly is
Speaker 1: certainly in broadcasts, that it is still a male bastion.
Speaker 1: It's still all the decision makers are are primarily white men,
Speaker 1: and we have to start changing that. And how do
Speaker 1: you change it while you give women an opportunity and
Speaker 1: experience and a chance to shine. How did you take
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously media has been the focus of a
Speaker 1: lot of me too stuff, more than any I was
Speaker 1: talking about so the other day. There's there's a lot
Speaker 1: of it in tech, but it really has been focused
Speaker 1: on media and including places you've worked. I mean, how
Speaker 1: do you look at when you when you see that happening?
Speaker 1: Did you just become a nerd to it like this
Speaker 1: is the way it is? I mean, I have to
Speaker 1: say personally, I did not deal with a lot of that.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether, uh, you know, I'm just imminently
Speaker 1: in harassable, but you know I'm harassable, not harassable, But
Speaker 1: you know, I was very lucky. I you know, every
Speaker 1: now and then, um, you know, someone would make a
Speaker 1: comment or it would be a little fratty, but I
Speaker 1: would just I think, I'm kind of like you. I
Speaker 1: would roll my eyes or give it right back. And
Speaker 1: so I think culturally it's just been such a shift
Speaker 1: in what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. But having
Speaker 1: said that, you know, I've been the beneficiary of having
Speaker 1: a pretty powerful job, and I would try to set
Speaker 1: the right tone in a work environment. Having said that,
Speaker 1: I think I'm sure it was you know, jocularity bordered
Speaker 1: on too much kind of uh, you know, boy's humor.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think I think about what I did
Speaker 1: I allow that I shouldn't have. Yeah, well, you know,
Speaker 1: and I don't I don't really feel that way. I
Speaker 1: think that some people have said, well, how did you
Speaker 1: not know what was going on? I think there was
Speaker 1: also this feeling of privacy, you know, and people do
Speaker 1: things and you're not monitoring behavior, uh, in people's spare time,
Speaker 1: you don't know about it. And so I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel I have a totally clear and
Speaker 1: clean conscience about the way I comported myself, and you know,
Speaker 1: any responsibility that I bear for people's bad behavior. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's hard because I think what's what happens is one
Speaker 1: of the things I've noticed, at least in Silicon Valley
Speaker 1: and talking to people is that people let things go.
Speaker 1: Like you know, I think about like how how you
Speaker 1: just you become again a nerd to it, like you
Speaker 1: you get you get this stuff all the time and
Speaker 1: then you live in the environment and stime. It is
Speaker 1: so subtle, Kara. You know something aggressive things that hasn't
Speaker 1: gotten a lot of attention is sort of very subtle sexism.
Speaker 1: That's that's marginalizing and dismissive and undervalues people's accomplishments and
Speaker 1: intelligence and and um ability to contribute. And it's it's
Speaker 1: this very subtle thing that you can't go to necessarily
Speaker 1: hr about it, but you feel it intensely. And I
Speaker 1: hadn't experienced that. Yeah, it's really interesting. When I just
Speaker 1: finished the Tina Brown book about her tenure, which I
Speaker 1: thought was fantastic and one of the things you got rated.
Speaker 1: It's hysterical. It's hysterical and beautifully written in very funny
Speaker 1: and very rob but brilliant, brilliant. But I was just
Speaker 1: thinking people have a vision of her that's really not
Speaker 1: very nice, like tough, you know, ball busting lady editor
Speaker 1: Cain and like, I'm so over that. I am over
Speaker 1: and I was. I was like she she changed magazines
Speaker 1: and to not one but two, and she had some
Speaker 1: like Rocky, Our Times, a Daily Beast and Talk and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But her accomplishments were massive when you
Speaker 1: start to realize it. The impact on magazines definitely. The
Speaker 1: kind of image she has is so like everyone any
Speaker 1: man only did that. I just was made me furious
Speaker 1: when I was reading. I was thinking, this person still
Speaker 1: has sort of a reputation among some which is like,
Speaker 1: oh what a what a tough bit. She is that
Speaker 1: kind of thing, and I'm like, whoa wait, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: she did a lot and why is she why is
Speaker 1: that her image? Well, you know, I think that's why
Speaker 1: it's so important to have women in leadership positions. When
Speaker 1: I anchored the CBS Evening News, like I would call
Speaker 1: writers out and say, why are you describing Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: that way? Would you describe a male candidate that way?
Speaker 1: Or just why can't we do a story on X,
Speaker 1: Y and Z things that that my male counterparts would
Speaker 1: never in a million years imagine. And but Why should
Speaker 1: it be you that does it? Why does it have
Speaker 1: to be someone I was just I did the same
Speaker 1: thing when I interviewed Hillary Clinton last year at code
Speaker 1: um So. One of the anchors I was telling you
Speaker 1: was like, she was strident, and I'm like, what did
Speaker 1: you just use? And this was on the air, and
Speaker 1: they're like, I said strident as a word you only
Speaker 1: used for hysterically true? And how that I was like,
Speaker 1: she was top of that being struck? You know, taken
Speaker 1: out of our vocabulary? Do you ever, hey? And how
Speaker 1: about perky? You know, like I was called and I
Speaker 1: am very outgoing and I'm friendly and I'm very like,
Speaker 1: I'm very upbeat, but you know, our men ever called perky? No,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a demeaning, marginalizing description of somebody.
Speaker 1: And I am like, when you shifted, like I think
Speaker 1: you did shift though, and you'r you were not You
Speaker 1: were a much more complex person than you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. People people didn't like it. Well, people don't
Speaker 1: like they don't want to acknowledge people are multidimensional. They
Speaker 1: want to, you know, put them in a box and
Speaker 1: say their X, Y and Z. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think that nuance has been lost in our current discourse
Speaker 1: and hasn't really existed for a very long time. And
Speaker 1: it's just very easy to stereotype people or else you
Speaker 1: I think about you. I remember when we were Fanny
Speaker 1: Fair and you yelled. I was talking about your salary
Speaker 1: and I was thrilled that you got the big salary.
Speaker 1: You did it. Yeah. Who Someone was sort of saying, oh,
Speaker 1: that's a lot of money. I'm like, who cares? You
Speaker 1: got the money like that? And you yelled from the
Speaker 1: onon that's right, switcher or something like that, but in
Speaker 1: sort of growl, and it was fantastic, and everyone's like,
Speaker 1: is that Katie Karrek, And I was like, yes, that
Speaker 1: is Katie k I think women, especially, I mean, think
Speaker 1: about it morning television. You have to be nice and
Speaker 1: you know, I think luckily I am. I think of
Speaker 1: myself as a nice person. But you have to fulfill
Speaker 1: these expectations and roles, and you know, it's very hard
Speaker 1: to navigate as a woman this kind of you know,
Speaker 1: being tough but not too tough, you know, being challenging
Speaker 1: but not too challenging, not having an opinion, being you know,
Speaker 1: being palatable and pleasant in the morning. You know, you
Speaker 1: have to be like the breakfast smoothie, and so it's hard,
Speaker 1: It's really hard. I like the breakfast smooth I think
Speaker 1: I stole that first. Who described that as that? Once? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What not anymore? What smoothie would you be? Like? Oh,
Speaker 1: my goodness, you'd be an interesting smoothie. But it's true.
Speaker 1: But it's it's I think that that's what's interesting is
Speaker 1: that if you don't fulfill their expectations of you. I
Speaker 1: think there's so much you know, one of the hours
Speaker 1: I'm doing for Natchie and again, I'm I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about all these and the only reason I bring it
Speaker 1: up is because you're in this hour and you're fantastic.
Speaker 1: It's about gender inequality in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and
Speaker 1: I talked to a woman at Harvard who studies implicit bias,
Speaker 1: and we you and I talked about this, Kara. You know,
Speaker 1: because I don't think that consider themselves a meritocracy, are
Speaker 1: the least meritocratic of anyone, because they don't acknowledge their
Speaker 1: in eight biases. And I think we are so programmed
Speaker 1: to see men and women in a certain way that
Speaker 1: is actually, you know, reinforced by all the messaging we
Speaker 1: get and commercials and the objectification of women, hyper sexualization
Speaker 1: of women. I had to think, you know, when this
Speaker 1: whole meat too movement was exploding, the Victoria's Secrets fashion
Speaker 1: show was on CBS, and I was like, no wonder,
Speaker 1: women are confused, No wonder, everybody is confused, right, right?
Speaker 1: But then you have the backlash and you talked about you.
Speaker 1: You you interviewed James to more for that, right or
Speaker 1: right others? You went to one of his party. You
Speaker 1: told me, I'm going to his party. I went to
Speaker 1: a cookout conserving sausages where they of course they were.
Speaker 1: There's sausages everywhere where I work, Katie, everywhere I go,
Speaker 1: sausage Sausage Fest. That's the name. That was the name
Speaker 1: of my memoirs, Sausage Fest. Um. But it's true, I
Speaker 1: always it's it's so true. Um. But what was interesting
Speaker 1: about when you were talking about that was that I
Speaker 1: glad that you were open to hearing them because one
Speaker 1: of the things in Zilia Valley right now, you know,
Speaker 1: Peter Teel has to move because he can't be concerned.
Speaker 1: Which come on, come on, come on, yeh, let's discuss that, alright.
Speaker 1: We only have a few minutes. Oh come on, I
Speaker 1: just please. I just don't even know what to say.
Speaker 1: This is a person who is a victimizer that acts
Speaker 1: like a victim typical, you know what I mean. Like
Speaker 1: this guy's soothed company out of business, he's got billions
Speaker 1: of dollars, he's all kinds of things at his disposal.
Speaker 1: And if you want me to imagine that he and
Speaker 1: he gets to speak up, he gets to give speeches,
Speaker 1: he gets to you know what I mean, and he's
Speaker 1: still a victim. Is Well, let me ask you something, Kara,
Speaker 1: in terms of like a policy discussion. Do you believe
Speaker 1: that in certain circles that conservative point of view is
Speaker 1: is actually heard at all and there can be an
Speaker 1: open conversation with people of differing opinions. I think some
Speaker 1: places are conservatives, in some places aren't. I can't operate
Speaker 1: in certain parts of the country either, like in certain companies.
Speaker 1: It's just companies have their point of view. And I
Speaker 1: think the reason a lot of these companies pretend they
Speaker 1: don't is because when you have to say your values,
Speaker 1: you have to argue about them. Right, values is what
Speaker 1: you argue about. But when you have I had this
Speaker 1: really interesting time YouTube. I went there to talk to
Speaker 1: them and they were talking about how it used to
Speaker 1: be all squirrel videos and nice things, and now they
Speaker 1: have a college ethical debate every day, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's Logan Paul or whatever, um and And on some level,
Speaker 1: I'm like, well that's what. What's what it's about having values?
Speaker 1: You have to state your values, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that they can. I'm having an interest. I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: a pike as a guy who's doing all these polls
Speaker 1: on conservatives. They don't get to talk. It isn't it
Speaker 1: is a liberal environment. It is. It just becase these
Speaker 1: companies are more tolerant. Tech has been more tolerant, and
Speaker 1: these are their values, And so I don't know if
Speaker 1: you can't talk, because I don't think that's I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: These people have so many opportunities to talk. At Google,
Speaker 1: there's like nine places to talk and all kinds of opportunities.
Speaker 1: But I think once you say something that's not in
Speaker 1: their value system, maybe it's not a place you need
Speaker 1: to work, or maybe you should work somewhere else, or
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's been for I mean, as
Speaker 1: a gay person, you couldn't be gay like you couldn't
Speaker 1: and that of course that ended up being illegal in
Speaker 1: some places. It's still not that illegal in many places. UM.
Speaker 1: But I just think you have to think about what
Speaker 1: values you have and if you have those values, not
Speaker 1: being cowed into saying you have to have everyone's point
Speaker 1: of view. This, this is our value, this is what
Speaker 1: we you know, every Internet company has a little statement
Speaker 1: of who they are, UM, and I think they're scared
Speaker 1: about that. They're scared about stating them. Essentially, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: But I also think that there are some issue Jews
Speaker 1: that respectable, intelligent, well meaning people can can disagree, and
Speaker 1: I do you know, I wonder about our inability to
Speaker 1: have a respectful conversation about maybe, you know, certain things
Speaker 1: are non negotiable. I understand that, but certain things that
Speaker 1: you can have a different point of view and you
Speaker 1: can learn from somebody and they can say, you know,
Speaker 1: this is how I feel about this, And I feel
Speaker 1: like those conversations aren't happening, and it really bumps me out,
Speaker 1: and I think it's really yes, it's so politicized, but
Speaker 1: maybe I was just thinking of the days some other
Speaker 1: point of view came out and I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad to hear this point of view, like now
Speaker 1: I know like people are like I can't believe people
Speaker 1: are like this. Thing, They've always been like this. They
Speaker 1: just have an outlet, and especially social media amplifies and
Speaker 1: weaponizes a lot of right, you know. And I when
Speaker 1: I think about it, I'm like, well, okay, now I
Speaker 1: soon see it. It's out in broad daylight. I understand
Speaker 1: the ignorance or whatever I think of whatever the point
Speaker 1: of view is most most many of my finding durant.
Speaker 1: But but you know, you know, you can't really persuade
Speaker 1: somebody if you're not talking to them. There's a really
Speaker 1: good book that's written by the incoming president of the
Speaker 1: University of Virginia, Jim Ryan. It's called Wait What And
Speaker 1: And he gave a great graduation speech at at the
Speaker 1: Harvard School of Education, and it's basically, we've lost our
Speaker 1: ability to be even a tiny bit circumspect, you know.
Speaker 1: We we we have these instantaneous reactions and sometimes just
Speaker 1: to take a moment and say, wait what. And anyway,
Speaker 1: it's very interesting to the way we hear things, the
Speaker 1: way we react to things, the way that we are
Speaker 1: in our own echo chambers, the way that we were
Speaker 1: preaching to the choir, especially on social media and Twitter.
Speaker 1: That's something I just wish once in a while we
Speaker 1: could all say wait what and then here each other
Speaker 1: a little bit, not on everything care of. But I'm
Speaker 1: being pushed back on in a very big way because
Speaker 1: I do think we're hearing each other. That's the problem,
Speaker 1: do you I was I'm just yes, because I'm reading.
Speaker 1: I'm reading the actual book on Hamilton's, not the musical,
Speaker 1: which I really much enjoyed. If you read Turn, If
Speaker 1: you read that book, the stuff that was going on
Speaker 1: between Hamilton's, Jefferson Madison and Washington, Yeah, exactly who created
Speaker 1: a problem at the end. But um, it was really
Speaker 1: quite the same, like it is even worse, like the
Speaker 1: kind of like an our democracy hung by a thread
Speaker 1: so many times, the Whiskey rebellion, the x y Z affair,
Speaker 1: we have no sense of history, is what it is.
Speaker 1: And if you read that, you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: oh my, like you you realize how and and the
Speaker 1: invective was so vicious, and through these different newspaper articles
Speaker 1: they wrote against each other. There was an act as
Speaker 1: the Sedition Act for people remember it like that you
Speaker 1: people went to jail for having a Republican point of
Speaker 1: view if they if they resulted the government, and that
Speaker 1: was law on the books for a very long time.
Speaker 1: UM that that if you insulted the government, you were jailed.
Speaker 1: So people who are not in the of the Adams group,
Speaker 1: the Federalists, were put in jail for years and their
Speaker 1: lives were changing. So I think this has been an
Speaker 1: American problem for years, is the lack of ability to
Speaker 1: have any memory and at the same time realize that
Speaker 1: we have always been like you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And then social media and what's happened is Trump has
Speaker 1: just under given voice to all of it, and now
Speaker 1: we see it instantly, and that's what's discomforting about it. Um,
Speaker 1: but we don't this is not something. Go read that book.
Speaker 1: Because then I sort of felt a little better. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, we've been doing this for centuries,
Speaker 1: were on the cusp of anarchy at every single second. Um, alright, alright,
Speaker 1: But because I think it's not I think social media
Speaker 1: has made it worse and that these companies have a responsibility.
Speaker 1: And I will end on that because one of the
Speaker 1: things when you're talking about how do I get liked disliked?
Speaker 1: I what I think happens. And I think the reason
Speaker 1: yours successful is because we just I hate to have
Speaker 1: something in common with Donald Trump, but you say it
Speaker 1: like it like it is for you, and I think
Speaker 1: people do appreciate that, whether they disagree with you or
Speaker 1: don't agree with you, if you have a cogent point
Speaker 1: of view and you're genuine these mediums, you thrive in them.
Speaker 1: I guess you know. I I still quite careful. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that you are sort of you know, Carabar
Speaker 1: the door. I'm a little more careful about some of
Speaker 1: the things I put out there in the world because
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I want to get the
Speaker 1: I don't care gene from you somehow, because I still
Speaker 1: I have that want, that desire to be liked, which
Speaker 1: is um you know, I have it less as I've
Speaker 1: gotten older, but I still have it. Sevent you're gonna
Speaker 1: say fuck you? What when is it? When? When? What
Speaker 1: age are you going to do that at? Well, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm starting to say, uh, not not f you. But
Speaker 1: it's so sweet, shut hush, you get get out of
Speaker 1: fight me. That's about as far as I go. But
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I do think you get an
Speaker 1: enormous amount of criticism that I can't imagine having. Like
Speaker 1: I was thinking there was a story about Lena Dunham
Speaker 1: in Vanity that really I mean, but this is this
Speaker 1: is the world we live in, and I think I
Speaker 1: think you can you can say nothing and stand for nothing,
Speaker 1: or you can, you know, say when you feel strongly
Speaker 1: about things. You know, I've been pretty open about saying
Speaker 1: we have to have a conversation about sensible gun laws.
Speaker 1: It is insanity. It is insanity. And no, it's not
Speaker 1: a panacea. No, it will never prevent gun violence, but
Speaker 1: it can reduce it, and it has to be a
Speaker 1: multi pronged approach. I agree mental illness is a part
Speaker 1: of it, but it's a you know, easy access to
Speaker 1: firearms is really a horrific thing. And I've been pretty
Speaker 1: vocal about that. So what's your next to you? You've done.
Speaker 1: You've got me to have a have my coal And
Speaker 1: I'm actually taking a well known person to get screened
Speaker 1: in March. I'm not going to I'm going to escort
Speaker 1: this individual. I am not going to know. I am
Speaker 1: not going to actually perform the colonoscopy because I'm I'm
Speaker 1: not qualified, but I'm going to be sort of the escort,
Speaker 1: which will be fun because you know it's such a
Speaker 1: preventable disease, and you know, nothing feels better to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you talk about anything I've done in
Speaker 1: my life, when people come up to me, Karen say,
Speaker 1: you know what I got screened for calling cancer because
Speaker 1: of you, and that screening saved my life, I mean
Speaker 1: that makes me feel like I'm walking on a cloud.
Speaker 1: So I have the colon of a twenty year old
Speaker 1: just in case you model clean clean? Have you? When
Speaker 1: was your last call? Well you're not? How old are
Speaker 1: you now? I'm old? Okay? So how many you've had
Speaker 1: one coal in oscopy? One? Yes, I'm gonna have one
Speaker 1: next you Okay? Five years? Right? Five years and and
Speaker 1: and really five years every five years? Yeah? Tell everything, Well,
Speaker 1: depending on what they find. They found a McDonald cheeseburger
Speaker 1: when I did mine. You didn't take the pills. I
Speaker 1: know I will take take. But I want to end
Speaker 1: on one thing. So you where do you imagine you're
Speaker 1: gonna do next? I mean, obviously you're talking about Instagram,
Speaker 1: which I think is really interesting, but what and then
Speaker 1: I will tell you what I'm going to do next.
Speaker 1: But what if you want to know? I do want
Speaker 1: to know, of course, I want what what What do
Speaker 1: you imagine if you could like design a career right now,
Speaker 1: like you're doing these documentaries, You're doing all kinds of things.
Speaker 1: What do you what would be the most interesting way?
Speaker 1: Still storytelling? I mean storytelling. I do love talking to
Speaker 1: interesting people. I like understanding sort of where they came from,
Speaker 1: how they got there. I love learning all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm sort of insatiably curious. So I think I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly I need some career advice from you, Kara,
Speaker 1: because as I also like being connected to an audience
Speaker 1: or two people. I like feeling that that I have,
Speaker 1: through the access to people, that I can make them
Speaker 1: more I can make complicated subjects more understandable, or that
Speaker 1: I can introduce them to something that they're not aware
Speaker 1: of that will improve their lives or that will just
Speaker 1: make their day more interesting. I like being sort of
Speaker 1: that conduit for people. And I think I think I
Speaker 1: have a pretty good sensibility about things. I think I've
Speaker 1: got a nose for news, as they say, I think
Speaker 1: I know I can sense when something is going to
Speaker 1: kind of be in the ethos, So I don't know exactly,
Speaker 1: but I just want to keep learning and discovering. And
Speaker 1: that sounds so cheesy and weird, but you know, I
Speaker 1: just enjoy being engaged and I like to take people along,
Speaker 1: and you should do interviews. I'm just telling you not
Speaker 1: just because this is what I mean. What do you
Speaker 1: imagine your greatest interview was? I think I'm most impactful,
Speaker 1: which really isn't a word, but now I think it
Speaker 1: is a work because it's used so much. I think
Speaker 1: it's probably was Sarah Palin. That was a hell of
Speaker 1: an interview. Well, you know, it having nothing to do
Speaker 1: with me. I just I think I basically went there
Speaker 1: with with questions that required critical thinking and accumulated knowledge,
Speaker 1: and I think I was very careful about asking them
Speaker 1: in a non confrontational way, and as a result, I
Speaker 1: think it exposed a lot about her and I think
Speaker 1: that was very helpful for voters. Yeah you were took
Speaker 1: a photograph, you know what I mean, And that's more
Speaker 1: like an X ray. Yeah you did, and you couldn't
Speaker 1: deny it. It was like, Okay, I see, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. It was really interest But I you know,
Speaker 1: I I feel like I've done a lot of pretty
Speaker 1: good interviews like this one. For example, this one Katie,
Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, hold on a second more question, Hold on, okay,
Speaker 1: this from Gianna, my producer. Alright, what muscles and skills
Speaker 1: do you think entrepreneurship draws upon compared to journalism? Um, Katie,
Speaker 1: I think I being irritating is I think the most
Speaker 1: important muscle skilled anyone has to be in irritating, irritating,
Speaker 1: being irritable and irritating and not being looking at something
Speaker 1: and saying why is this done this way? I think
Speaker 1: every great entrepreneur from Steve Jobs to down to today,
Speaker 1: lots of great entrepreneurs are every one of them is
Speaker 1: irritating and irritated. And so they see something and they
Speaker 1: want to they don't They don't let anything stop them
Speaker 1: from doing it, and I think it's really hard. I
Speaker 1: think agreeable people don't invent yeah, you know, And I
Speaker 1: think that is important word probably and entrepreneurs uh vocabulary
Speaker 1: is why why? Yeah? Maybe why not? When under say
Speaker 1: it's it's more like I don't like this, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do this, I don't want to do this.
Speaker 1: And I think our greatest you know, that will be
Speaker 1: from very difficult people Anyway, Katie, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Fun when you come to New York so we can
Speaker 1: thank you so much. By the way, I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you you're thinking about running for mayor of San Francisca.
Speaker 1: Get a million questions, kat you have to do and
Speaker 1: it's funny, funny, free. Maybe we'll see. I've decided perhaps
Speaker 1: I might aim even higher, Katie. Really you're gonna run
Speaker 1: for president? No, it would be senator am I talking
Speaker 1: about you. Can I be your your press secretary? Oh
Speaker 1: my god? We would just go down and flames would
Speaker 1: be so good. Hey, it sounds like a sitcom, doesn't it?
Speaker 1: It does? It does, Let's write it. That's a wrap
Speaker 1: for us today. Thanks to our producer Gianna Palmer, our
Speaker 1: audio engineer Jared O'Connell, and our assistant producer Nora Richie.
Speaker 1: A big thank you to Emily Beana of Katie Current Media,
Speaker 1: to my assistant Beth de mos, and to Allison Presnett
Speaker 1: who tears it up on social media. You know we're
Speaker 1: going to run out of these things after a while. Anyway,
Speaker 1: our theme music, you ask Mark Phillips wrote it. Katie
Speaker 1: and I are the show's executive producers and Cody Scully
Speaker 1: is our terrific engineer here in l A. And here's
Speaker 1: your weekly reminder that you can drop us the line
Speaker 1: at comments at current podcast dot com or at nine
Speaker 1: to nine to four four six three seven. We really
Speaker 1: do value your feedback and your guest ideas as well. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: you can find me on social media under Katie Kuric
Speaker 1: how Original, and you can find me on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Goldsmith b. We'll be back next week with the final
Speaker 1: installment in our Da Da Da Wonder women's series, where
Speaker 1: we'll be talking with dvf herself. That is right, people,
Speaker 1: fashion icon Dion von Furstenberg will be joining our show.
Speaker 1: Did you know she's also a former princess or maybe
Speaker 1: a current princess. Once a princess, always a princess. Anyway,
Speaker 1: get excited everyone, and by all means call in with
Speaker 1: your questions. Our voicemail line once again to nine to
Speaker 1: two four for six three seven. Thanks for listening and
Speaker 1: we will talk to you next week