WEBVTT - Battling Mind Parasites

0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.880
<v Speaker 1>Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with

0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:20.279
<v Speaker 1>Meet your Girl Daniel Moody. Pre recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.319
<v Speaker 1>it is time for rest and respite, and so I'm

0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.440
<v Speaker 1>very excited to bring you a lot of pre recorded

0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:34.280
<v Speaker 1>fantastic interviews and solo combos that I will be having

0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.479
<v Speaker 1>while wok F is out on break and today I

0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.040
<v Speaker 1>am super excited for you all to hear this conversation

0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:48.720
<v Speaker 1>with Andy Norman, who is an award winning author of

0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.840
<v Speaker 1>the book Mental Immunity. He is also the co founder

0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:59.440
<v Speaker 1>and CEO of Mental Immunity Project. What is that you ask,

0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Let me tell you. The Mental Immunity Project aims to

0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:12.880
<v Speaker 1>reduce the public's susceptibility to bad information, extremism, pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, propaganda,

0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:17.080
<v Speaker 1>and more by equipping them with skills they need to

0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:24.679
<v Speaker 1>identify and reject misleading or manipulative content. Doctor Norman is

0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:31.360
<v Speaker 1>the award winning author of Mental Immunity, Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites,

0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:35.319
<v Speaker 1>and the Search for a Better Way to Think. His

0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:41.360
<v Speaker 1>work has appeared everywhere from Scientific American Psychology Today, Free Inquiry,

0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:46.360
<v Speaker 1>the Humanists, and other places. I was so excited to

0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:51.920
<v Speaker 1>delve into this conversation with doctor Norman because I mean,

0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:54.680
<v Speaker 1>this is the conversation that we needed to be having

0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:59.360
<v Speaker 1>back in twenty fifteen. This is the conversation that needed

0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.400
<v Speaker 1>to be pervent across the media about how to deal

0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.520
<v Speaker 1>with an entity like Donald Trump that the truth clearly

0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:12.480
<v Speaker 1>abates him at all times, What to do in order

0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:17.400
<v Speaker 1>to protect yourself from habitual liars and an entire party

0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:22.519
<v Speaker 1>that would create an entire apparatus that included one of

0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:27.280
<v Speaker 1>the most widely watched networks, to create a feeder system

0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:33.639
<v Speaker 1>for their lies right that would then expose millions upon

0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:38.200
<v Speaker 1>millions of people to what doctor Norman refers to as

0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.760
<v Speaker 1>mind parasites, These things that kind of get into your

0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:47.320
<v Speaker 1>brain and begin to eat at your ability to decipher

0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.480
<v Speaker 1>between right and wrong, to be able to decipher between

0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:56.440
<v Speaker 1>truth and fact. When you plant seeds as Donald Trump

0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:01.200
<v Speaker 1>and the Republican Party has done to destroy faith in

0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.800
<v Speaker 1>agencies in what you see with your own eyes, you

0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.840
<v Speaker 1>begin to believe nothing, which makes it easier for an

0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:13.440
<v Speaker 1>authoritarian to take over and just take back control. Because

0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.880
<v Speaker 1>as doctor Norman and I will begin to discuss, is

0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:22.120
<v Speaker 1>that it is very hard right in an open society,

0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:28.280
<v Speaker 1>which a democracy is right where we are having conversations

0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:33.000
<v Speaker 1>about how we want our society to look as opposed

0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.000
<v Speaker 1>to it being dictated to us from up on high.

0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:43.680
<v Speaker 1>But when you have those avenues of communication and information

0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:49.320
<v Speaker 1>corroded and eroded with series after a series of lies

0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:54.920
<v Speaker 1>in gaslight and misinformation, discerning the truth becomes really difficult,

0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.840
<v Speaker 1>as we have seen, and so here in this book

0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:03.440
<v Speaker 1>and with his project, doctor Norman really talks about the

0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.680
<v Speaker 1>ways that we can protect ourselves and the ways that

0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:11.560
<v Speaker 1>we can protect those around us. Check out this conversation

0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:19.160
<v Speaker 1>coming up next with doctor Andy Norman. Folks. I am

0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:26.240
<v Speaker 1>very happy to welcome to WOKF doctor Andy Norman, who

0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:32.120
<v Speaker 1>is the award winning author of Mental Immunity, Infectious, Infectious Ideas,

0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.839
<v Speaker 1>Mind Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think,

0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:40.600
<v Speaker 1>and is the co founder and CEO of Mental Immunity Project,

0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:46.600
<v Speaker 1>which aims to reduce the public susceptibility to bad information, extremism, pseudoscience,

0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:51.200
<v Speaker 1>conspiracy theories, propaganda, and more by equipping them with the

0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:56.400
<v Speaker 1>skills they need to identify and reject misleading or manipulative content.

0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Um Doctor Norman, let me say this that your work

0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.760
<v Speaker 1>is needed now more than ever, which I'm sure you

0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.760
<v Speaker 1>are well aware of and know. Yeah, thank you, And

0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.360
<v Speaker 1>I want to ask you, I guess to start off with.

0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:20.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, we are living in such a polarized time

0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:27.839
<v Speaker 1>and such a dangerous time as it pertains to the

0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:33.360
<v Speaker 1>information silos that we live in. Yes, the information silos,

0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:37.359
<v Speaker 1>meaning that we are able to find whatever quote unquote

0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:43.560
<v Speaker 1>truth aligns with our own feelings and desires depending on

0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.840
<v Speaker 1>what platform that we decide to go to. We no

0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.080
<v Speaker 1>longer live in a time when there are four channels

0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.039
<v Speaker 1>that we're all watching to get the same news from.

0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.760
<v Speaker 1>You can get whatever news that you want. And so

0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.880
<v Speaker 1>first off is that doesn't seem to be changing. It

0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.560
<v Speaker 1>only seems to be increasing. That's right, talk to us,

0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:10.200
<v Speaker 1>what is at stake if we don't have the agility

0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:15.000
<v Speaker 1>to be able to create mental immunity when it's coming,

0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.719
<v Speaker 1>the disinformation is coming at such an expedited rate.

0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the more scholars study the way misinformation spreads

0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:28.960
<v Speaker 2>through societies, through cultures, the more they realize it behaves

0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.560
<v Speaker 2>an awful lot like a disease. And our minds actually

0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.560
<v Speaker 2>struggle with missing disinformation and pretty much the same way

0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:42.320
<v Speaker 2>that our bodies, immune systems struggle with pathogens. In fact,

0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.479
<v Speaker 2>people now experts now take the analogies so seriously that

0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.640
<v Speaker 2>they're starting to think of bad ideas as minded parasites

0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.240
<v Speaker 2>of a sort. And by bad ideas here I just

0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.800
<v Speaker 2>mean misinformation or falsehoods, or even you know, ideas spread

0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:03.640
<v Speaker 2>hate and disnction. Those ideas too can be thought of

0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:08.640
<v Speaker 2>as parasites of the mind. The good news is that

0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:15.040
<v Speaker 2>our minds evolved in a rich stew of problematic ideas,

0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.880
<v Speaker 2>and we actually have the capacity to become very good

0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.160
<v Speaker 2>at discriminating between the good stuff and the bad stuff.

0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.400
<v Speaker 2>So our minds actually have evolved immune systems that, under

0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.920
<v Speaker 2>the right conditions, can do a really good job of

0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:34.640
<v Speaker 2>keeping our minds relatively infection free. It's important to note

0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.040
<v Speaker 2>that nobody has a mind completely free of mind infections.

0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.720
<v Speaker 2>We all harbor bad ideas, and if we don't take

0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:47.040
<v Speaker 2>that to heart and bring the kind of humility needed

0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.440
<v Speaker 2>to unlearned things, then we're going to have it. We're

0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.440
<v Speaker 2>really going to struggle. In this day and age, we

0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:57.080
<v Speaker 2>think that what we call subtractive learning, learning to let

0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:01.840
<v Speaker 2>go of ideas that probably don't measure up. That's as

0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:06.800
<v Speaker 2>important as inputing new information that's that should be added

0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.160
<v Speaker 2>to the mind's knowledge stockpile.

0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:14.600
<v Speaker 1>Let's dig into the idea of mind parasites for a minute.

0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:19.480
<v Speaker 1>As somebody who loves sci fi like I do, it

0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:26.000
<v Speaker 1>conjures ideas in my mind. You know, of aliens, I'm

0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:30.360
<v Speaker 1>pretty and pretty creepy. So can you just explain what

0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.760
<v Speaker 1>you mean by by the concept and and the term

0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.160
<v Speaker 1>so that people get to get a get a better

0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:37.240
<v Speaker 1>sense of what that is.

0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:43.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, so I think the first thing, well, I'm

0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.240
<v Speaker 2>glad that concept is different enough to catch your attention.

0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Second thing I'll say is don't don't don't be too

0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.200
<v Speaker 2>freaked out about it that the bad ideas that have

0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.360
<v Speaker 2>crept into your mind all these times are aren't suddenly

0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.679
<v Speaker 2>going to come alive and you know, get the way

0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:05.520
<v Speaker 2>through your brain. It's nothing like that. But the fact

0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:10.400
<v Speaker 2>is ideas don't always serve the host the minds that

0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.880
<v Speaker 2>host them. They don't always serve them well. And to

0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.000
<v Speaker 2>really reflect on the So philosophers have been reflecting deeply

0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.120
<v Speaker 2>on this fact for a long time and trying to

0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:25.280
<v Speaker 2>develop methods to better weed out the problematic ideas from

0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.840
<v Speaker 2>the good ones. And some of the most powerful methods

0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.320
<v Speaker 2>involved just learning to ask good questions, learn to listen

0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:40.560
<v Speaker 2>to your doubts, express them with questions, and especially common

0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.120
<v Speaker 2>use of clarifying questions, and that can go a long

0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:51.120
<v Speaker 2>way towards improving your thinking and helping you make better decisions.

0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, right now, I think that what makes me

0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:04.760
<v Speaker 1>excite but also nervous about the work that you do

0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.600
<v Speaker 1>is that it requires a desire to want to think

0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.320
<v Speaker 1>and be better. Right, It requires a desire, like you

0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.600
<v Speaker 1>had said earlier, to unlearn and a humility to unlearn

0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.760
<v Speaker 1>bad ideas. And we are living in a time of

0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:28.400
<v Speaker 1>strong men, right that are spreading disinformation, and humility is

0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.280
<v Speaker 1>not a part of that package, right It toxic masculinity

0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.720
<v Speaker 1>and aggression is actually a part of that passage. So

0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:41.720
<v Speaker 1>to say to myself, hmm, let me ask myself questions

0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.960
<v Speaker 1>as opposed to I know everything that there is to

0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.600
<v Speaker 1>know is almost like the first step in order to

0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.240
<v Speaker 1>get to the place of mental immunity. And so how

0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.320
<v Speaker 1>do you how do we navigate that? Because for someone

0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:02.000
<v Speaker 1>like me and listeners to this show, they are about expansion, right,

0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.720
<v Speaker 1>they are about learning more and being curious.

0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:08.480
<v Speaker 2>And my guess is most of your listeners bring a

0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:09.080
<v Speaker 2>fair amount of.

0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Humility to right right, right, And I think that we're

0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.720
<v Speaker 1>out of time of there being a lack and almost

0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:21.720
<v Speaker 1>as celebration of the lack of intellectual curiosity. Let me

0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.240
<v Speaker 1>just follow like sheep.

0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean you can see how I mean.

0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:32.840
<v Speaker 2>For example, Rush Limbaugh was a radio host who would

0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:39.319
<v Speaker 2>use bombast and overconfidence. His overconfidence, his lack of humility

0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.880
<v Speaker 2>was really appealing to people because it seemed like I

0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.640
<v Speaker 2>imagine it felt to some as though it was there's

0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.000
<v Speaker 2>a way of orienting yourself in a confusing world. I mean,

0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:53.120
<v Speaker 2>this guy at least has strong opinions and they don't waiver,

0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.839
<v Speaker 2>and he sticks by his guns, So I want to

0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.760
<v Speaker 2>be like that. That's can be really disorienting, both morally

0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:05.199
<v Speaker 2>and practically. That the people most worth emulating, the people

0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:10.120
<v Speaker 2>most worth listening and learning from, are extremely humble and

0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.320
<v Speaker 2>are willing to rethink things. And as our world grows

0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.959
<v Speaker 2>more and more complex in terms of the information that

0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:23.560
<v Speaker 2>bombards us, we all need to learn to rethink things

0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and also and to bring the kind of open mindedness

0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.920
<v Speaker 2>and humility that allows people to do that. Philusphers have

0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.760
<v Speaker 2>noticed for thousands of years that the least humble people

0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:38.280
<v Speaker 2>are often society's biggest problems. Right, So if you want

0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.280
<v Speaker 2>to be on the side of the angels, so to speak,

0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.920
<v Speaker 2>instead of say yeah, I know this for sure, say

0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.800
<v Speaker 2>I think that's true. I mean, last time I checked

0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.000
<v Speaker 2>it seemed like so. One thing really good thinkers do

0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 2>is they try not to think in black and white,

0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.880
<v Speaker 2>are in absolute terms. They think in shades of gray.

0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 2>So if you realize, I mean, if you're considering saying

0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:10.199
<v Speaker 2>something or asserting something, it's tempting to just want to

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.440
<v Speaker 2>say it in very stark terms because you sound confident,

0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:18.160
<v Speaker 2>you sound decisive, and people admire that. But if the

0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.280
<v Speaker 2>truth is better served by saying, you know, I'm like

0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.720
<v Speaker 2>eighty five percent confident this is true, but of course

0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.480
<v Speaker 2>there are there's a possibility I might be wrong. Learning

0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.240
<v Speaker 2>to say that to yourself and even saying it to

0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.920
<v Speaker 2>others can make you part of the solution instead of

0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 2>part of the problem. We're at a moment in history

0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:44.800
<v Speaker 2>where our entire culture needs to move away from sort

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:50.840
<v Speaker 2>of absolutist thinking and become more sensitive and actually better listeners.

0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Almost the more. One of the most important skills in

0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 2>all of this is learning how to listen with humility

0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.840
<v Speaker 2>and learn from people who's used different from ours.

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, I often say on this show and others

0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:09.439
<v Speaker 1>that from the political perspective, the foundation of a democracy

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.160
<v Speaker 1>is based in critical thinking, right. It is based in

0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:19.360
<v Speaker 1>the citizen turie's ability to think critically about who they

0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:24.200
<v Speaker 1>are choosing to represent them right, and how they are

0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 1>going to be best served. Yes, and what I see

0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:33.920
<v Speaker 1>now is a society, not just here but globally that

0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 1>is really being driven by fear. And I think about

0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:44.720
<v Speaker 1>fear honestly, Doctor Normans as a different kind of mental parasite.

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I think that's right. So emotions can spread by contagion. Right,

0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.280
<v Speaker 2>if somebody in your room, in the crowd where you

0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.360
<v Speaker 2>are starting to freak out and ask act scared, you

0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:02.440
<v Speaker 2>can actually contract that fear. It can spread through a

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 2>crowd almost like a disease. And so emotions can spread virally,

0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.280
<v Speaker 2>so to speak. And fear is one of the most

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 2>Fear doesn't bring out the best in people. No, Fear, hate, resentment,

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.680
<v Speaker 2>these are the emotions that tend to make us the

0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:26.680
<v Speaker 2>worst versions of ourselves. Compassion, sympathy, patience, these are the

0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.080
<v Speaker 2>qualities that tend to bring out the best in people,

0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:35.560
<v Speaker 2>and our fast moving information world seems to reward people

0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.560
<v Speaker 2>who are quick and decisive and confident rather than people

0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.160
<v Speaker 2>who are careful and cautious and slow.

0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.280
<v Speaker 1>I wonder, then, if fear two spreads like a virus,

0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:54.000
<v Speaker 1>and you have a political party, for instance, that has

0:15:54.080 --> 0:16:00.640
<v Speaker 1>weaponized that fear in order to control the masses, would

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.040
<v Speaker 1>be that it isn't just enough to shut it off right,

0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:10.080
<v Speaker 1>that there has to be a formulation that looks like deprogramming,

0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 1>because you've already if it is a virus and I've

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 1>already come into contact with it, then it's already spreading

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:24.240
<v Speaker 1>around my system. Just shutting down doesn't stop the virus

0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.040
<v Speaker 1>from moving. And so I'm wondering, you know, what does

0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.440
<v Speaker 1>it look like once you vite because again this comes

0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.000
<v Speaker 1>with awareness and consciousness. You have to be aware that

0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 1>you've caught the cold before you can rid yourself of it.

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.680
<v Speaker 1>So I'm really curious as to what it looks like

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:47.920
<v Speaker 1>then for those people, let's say I'll use this for

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.760
<v Speaker 1>reference of this show, the January sixth people who were

0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:56.040
<v Speaker 1>convicted when asked, now, there many of them are just

0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 1>like they didn't know what they were doing. They got

0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.120
<v Speaker 1>caught up right, is the the defense that they have,

0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.040
<v Speaker 1>whether or not they believe that, or whether or not

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.880
<v Speaker 1>they're using it as a way to lessen sentences. There

0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.480
<v Speaker 1>are some that have testified about needing to deprogram themselves,

0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:14.840
<v Speaker 1>so I'm just curious as to what that looks like.

0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, one of the things we're learning is

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.080
<v Speaker 2>that it's a lot harder to deprogram, say a cult member,

0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.639
<v Speaker 2>than it is to prevent somebody to give people the

0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:31.280
<v Speaker 2>skills they need to prevent from being seduced by the

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.840
<v Speaker 2>cult leader in the first place in the first place.

0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.680
<v Speaker 2>So prevention, an ounce of prevention, is worth a pound

0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.600
<v Speaker 2>of cure. A little bit of effort can go a

0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:45.440
<v Speaker 2>long way to prevent people from being exploited by, say,

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:50.640
<v Speaker 2>manipulative messaging, But it's much harder after people have bought

0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.280
<v Speaker 2>into that manipulative message and formed an identity around it,

0:17:55.440 --> 0:18:01.359
<v Speaker 2>and then they fight like heck to main the sucker

0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.879
<v Speaker 2>or the dupe of the person who's manipulating them with information.

0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.440
<v Speaker 2>The astrophysicist Carl Sagan once said that you know, once

0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:15.000
<v Speaker 2>you give your belief or your credulity to a charlatan,

0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:22.160
<v Speaker 2>you almost never get it back. That propagandists and conspiracy

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:27.400
<v Speaker 2>theories and cult leaders have ways of hacking into your mind,

0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:32.560
<v Speaker 2>winning your allegiance, preventing you from really thinking for yourself.

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.240
<v Speaker 2>And of course we can't run a democracy if people

0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:45.760
<v Speaker 2>are falling prey to disinformation peddlers left and right. And

0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:47.679
<v Speaker 2>of course this is one of the deepest challenges for

0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:51.199
<v Speaker 2>any democracy because in an open society, we believe that

0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.680
<v Speaker 2>people should be able to speak their minds, should be

0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.359
<v Speaker 2>able to raise criticisms. But right now people are we've

0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.840
<v Speaker 2>treated that idea as so sayrid that we're allowing people

0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.520
<v Speaker 2>to weaponize information in ways that harm others. Right, So,

0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.159
<v Speaker 2>in just the same way that it's not okay to

0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:18.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, hypnotize and brainwash somebody, it's not okay

0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:25.200
<v Speaker 2>to set up an info Wars platform and brainwash tens

0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.440
<v Speaker 2>of millions of people. In fact, if the former is problematic,

0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:41.720
<v Speaker 2>the latter is even millions of times more so.

0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.240
<v Speaker 1>So, what does it look like then? You know, with

0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the time we have, what does it look like as

0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:47.840
<v Speaker 1>we're heading into an election year, right, I can't stress

0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.960
<v Speaker 1>enough that it's going to be the most consequential of

0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:56.679
<v Speaker 1>our lifetimes about whether we hold on to democracy or

0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:04.480
<v Speaker 1>America falls to authoritarianism? And what does it look like

0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.520
<v Speaker 1>when people know? Right, I'm I'm talking to the seventy

0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.880
<v Speaker 1>percent because I personally believe that the thirty percent that

0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 1>have become hypnotized by trump Ism magaism, that they are

0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.040
<v Speaker 1>not coming back right, That is my that is my

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.720
<v Speaker 1>They are very hard to reach, that is my belief.

0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 1>But there are seventy percent, the majority of people. How

0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:32.240
<v Speaker 1>do they prepare themselves to be mindful of the disinformation

0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.880
<v Speaker 1>and not fall prey to it?

0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.199
<v Speaker 2>Let me offer what I think is maybe the most highest,

0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.520
<v Speaker 2>highest impact thing that we as a nation need to realize.

0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:47.800
<v Speaker 2>There are people out there who are peddling counter narratives

0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:53.199
<v Speaker 2>just to create confusion and to make people feel resignation

0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:57.000
<v Speaker 2>and to just give up and then not vote. So

0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.840
<v Speaker 2>if you feel like, yeah, the Dems say this, but

0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:03.360
<v Speaker 2>the Republicans say that, who's to say it's all bullshit?

0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.679
<v Speaker 2>And then you just don't even exercise your right to vote.

0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:10.240
<v Speaker 2>If you do that, the disinformation peddlers have won because

0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.439
<v Speaker 2>they've manipulated you into not exercising your judgment, into not

0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.760
<v Speaker 2>using your ability to think for yourself to help protect

0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.399
<v Speaker 2>our freedoms in our democracy. So I would urge your

0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:25.640
<v Speaker 2>listeners to realize that there will be a crazy lot

0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 2>of inflammatory information flying around as we approach the twenty

0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:36.919
<v Speaker 2>twenty four election. Tensions will run high. People will be fearful, angry, resentful,

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:41.639
<v Speaker 2>All of these emotions will run high. Realize that you

0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:47.040
<v Speaker 2>don't have to let that information trigger you. Keep your calm,

0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.479
<v Speaker 2>keep your cool, be a good citizen, Get out and

0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.200
<v Speaker 2>exercise your right to vote for the party, the one

0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:58.040
<v Speaker 2>party in our nation anymore that is actually trying to

0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.840
<v Speaker 2>do the best for all of us than just try

0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 2>to glorify a leader who will take advantage of anyone

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:11.560
<v Speaker 2>and everyone. So don't despair is the main thing. Stay strong,

0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:16.200
<v Speaker 2>get out there, help your neighbors vote. If you can,

0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:22.560
<v Speaker 2>donate to a political cause so that I mean Trump

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.000
<v Speaker 2>was raising lots of money to get reelected, and if

0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.960
<v Speaker 2>he takes if he takes the White House again, I'm

0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:33.560
<v Speaker 2>not at all sure our democracy will survive. And we

0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:37.000
<v Speaker 2>who care about our democracy need to rise up in

0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.679
<v Speaker 2>huge numbers on election day. And it's time to prepare

0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:43.159
<v Speaker 2>yourself to do that now, and not to let all

0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:45.440
<v Speaker 2>the bullshit that's going to overwhelm us for the next

0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:47.520
<v Speaker 2>few months deter you from doing the right thing.

0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I can't, I can't agree more. This is

0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.679
<v Speaker 1>the This is the drum that I beat on this

0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:59.399
<v Speaker 1>show every single day because I do think, you know,

0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:01.560
<v Speaker 1>And the the last question that I have for you,

0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:06.720
<v Speaker 1>because I do think like fear, despair and hopelessness too,

0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.000
<v Speaker 1>is can be viral.

0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:18.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely, And I wonder for you, you know, to

0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:23.280
<v Speaker 3>offer to the audience that by plugging in every single day,

0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 3>seeing violent, horrific wars, seeing death, and just feeling like

0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:36.800
<v Speaker 3>they cannot hold this grief anymore, they want to shut down, right,

0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:39.840
<v Speaker 3>they want to not discuss I don't want to talk

0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:40.600
<v Speaker 3>about politics.

0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:42.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to talk about these things. And it's

0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:46.320
<v Speaker 1>the conversation that allows us the ability to expand. So

0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.199
<v Speaker 1>what do you offer to those people that are that

0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:51.640
<v Speaker 1>are struggling with hopefulness?

0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Well? I have to remind myself almost every day that

0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the newspaper is a bias sample of stories about problems

0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:06.000
<v Speaker 2>mostly right, Yeah, And when people quietly resolve things and

0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:09.359
<v Speaker 2>solve problems, a lot of times it doesn't make the news.

0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:13.679
<v Speaker 2>And so our information diets tend to make us more

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:18.200
<v Speaker 2>pessimistic and despairing than we probably ought to be, So

0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 2>it's worth just remembering that, stepping back from it and saying, yeah,

0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:25.199
<v Speaker 2>if all I read is the news, it's natural I'm

0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.720
<v Speaker 2>going to feel kind of down. But there are lots

0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of things going on behind the scenes that are pushing

0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:35.880
<v Speaker 2>humanity in the right direction. So stay, stay strong, keep

0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:36.399
<v Speaker 2>hope alive.

0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:42.760
<v Speaker 1>That was a perfect place to end on your call

0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:47.560
<v Speaker 1>to action to keep Hope alive, folks. I will say

0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:54.199
<v Speaker 1>that the book Mental Immunity, Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites, and

0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the Search for a Better Way to Think, is absolutely

0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:00.639
<v Speaker 1>worth the read for those of you who are trying

0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:06.719
<v Speaker 1>to stave off disinformation but also raise your levels of hopefulness.

0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:12.199
<v Speaker 1>And also do check out Mental Immunity Project because I

0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.440
<v Speaker 1>think that it is absolutely worth the discussion, particularly during

0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:19.439
<v Speaker 1>this season when we're gathering with other folks. Doctor Andy Norman,

0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.240
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for making the time for WOKF.

0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:23.080
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate you.

0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:25.359
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Danielle, keep up the good work.

0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:34.080
<v Speaker 1>That is it for me today, dear friends on WOKF.

0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:38.919
<v Speaker 1>As always, power to the people and to all the people. Power,

0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:41.640
<v Speaker 1>get woke and stay woke as fuck.