Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of
Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.
Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade
Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.
Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.
Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means
Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,
Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Joining me now is somebody
Speaker 2: who needs no introduction. Tucker Carlson, founder of the Tucker
Speaker 2: Carlson Network. Tucker, it's great to see you, sir.
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining me. Oh thanks for having me, Sucker.
Speaker 3: Thank you absolutely.
Speaker 2: I owe my entire career to this man, and I
Speaker 2: always say that to anybody who will listen. So I
Speaker 2: appreciate you very much, and especially though about what you're
Speaker 2: doing now. You've launched this new company, the Tucker Carlston Network.
Speaker 2: You're free of cable news, I think for the first
Speaker 2: time in decades. So first and foremost, how does it
Speaker 2: feel and what do you want to try and accomplish
Speaker 2: now that you are generally free of the system.
Speaker 3: So I'm following your path.
Speaker 1: I probably never would have done it if it hadn't
Speaker 1: been done for me. So I'm grateful that I was
Speaker 1: unexpectedly bounced from my last job, because you know, inertia
Speaker 1: takes over and you get in your tunnel and you
Speaker 1: just do your thing every day, and having a daily show,
Speaker 1: as you know, is like it's so busy that you
Speaker 1: don't you can't think about anything in larger terms. So
Speaker 1: I'm sincerely glad that I was forced to make a change.
Speaker 1: I have over the last year really come to only
Speaker 1: read independent media just because I don't trust anything else.
Speaker 1: So I'm proud to be in it. And what I
Speaker 1: want to do is really simple. Create a news company
Speaker 1: that can't be canceled. I mean, having been you know,
Speaker 1: IM not whining about it, but you know, having been
Speaker 1: silenced to couple of times several times, I don't want
Speaker 1: that again. So you know, you need a business model
Speaker 1: that is impervious to coordinated attacks against you, and that's.
Speaker 3: The subscription model.
Speaker 1: Because I'm happy to have advertisers, but you can't be
Speaker 1: dependent on the whims of advertisers in a world where
Speaker 1: you know, there are very well funded organizations designed to
Speaker 1: bully advertisers into leaving you. So that's why we went
Speaker 1: with a subscription model. Part subscription model, but mostly I
Speaker 1: want to do what you do, and I think most
Speaker 1: people in this world do cover the stories that are
Speaker 1: getting no attention at all, that are often the most
Speaker 1: important stories, certainly the most interesting stories. And be honest,
Speaker 1: be really honest, as honest as you can possibly be.
Speaker 1: And you can only do that when you're in a
Speaker 1: certain headspace. Absolutely, but I think it's super important.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean the day you were let go from Fox News,
Speaker 2: I texted you. I said, I believe that this is
Speaker 2: the best thing you've ever happen to you. And I
Speaker 2: still believe it. I'm curious, though, there's a big debate
Speaker 2: amongst media experts. They're like, well, box news is a
Speaker 2: machine and all of this, but these don't seem to
Speaker 2: really grapple with the decline of the medium itself. So
Speaker 2: I'm curious, do you think independent media and even the
Speaker 2: company that you are building, could it ever rival the
Speaker 2: power of cable in terms of cultural cachet, in terms
Speaker 2: of driving politics or do you think that they're still
Speaker 2: going to retain a lot of the power that they
Speaker 2: still have.
Speaker 1: Oh No, I think they're done and for a couple
Speaker 1: of reasons. One is business related. I don't think the
Speaker 1: model works. It's too expensive. By the way, I don't
Speaker 1: think NBC News will be here in ten years. I
Speaker 1: bet my car on it. So there's that. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're in declining inexorably. I actually have lasted a lot longer.
Speaker 1: The age of television went on much longer than I
Speaker 1: thought it would. I started doing it in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1: I had grown up in it because my dad did it.
Speaker 1: So I've seen it longitudinally for over fifty years, and
Speaker 1: I'm just amazed at its durability.
Speaker 3: But everything comes to an end, our.
Speaker 1: Lives included, and so yet, No, that's definitely going away.
Speaker 1: But I also think not to be preachy. They devalued
Speaker 1: their own currency by lying too much. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: people lie, they share the truth, they hold things.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's just like part of the human condition.
Speaker 1: But you can't be just like a flat out propaganda organization,
Speaker 1: for like Pfizer, because it's just too obvious. And when
Speaker 1: people figure out that that's what you are, they don't
Speaker 1: trust you, and in a world with choices, they will
Speaker 1: choose not to believe you, and then they will choose
Speaker 1: not to watch you, and that's exact, and the number
Speaker 1: show that that's happening. So the other thing I would
Speaker 1: say is that it's not simply about convincing all three
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million Americans of something the way our
Speaker 1: society and all societies are structured. If you can convince
Speaker 1: you know, the top two percent of the population who
Speaker 1: engage with this stuff daily, who are probably making most
Speaker 1: of the decisions, you can have a massive effect.
Speaker 3: On the whole country.
Speaker 1: And so like Substack, for example, you know, I can't
Speaker 1: believe how many substacks I subscribe to. I pay for
Speaker 1: because I want to support it, but also I get
Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, they've taken the place of what
Speaker 1: small magazines were when I was a kid, or books
Speaker 1: were when my father was a kid, you know, a
Speaker 1: place for people to air their views in a longer
Speaker 1: form and in a more honest way, like what is
Speaker 1: going on in our society. You can actually learn a
Speaker 1: lot from Subtec. You learn absolutely nothing from the cable
Speaker 1: news channel. So just that it's a small company, it'll
Speaker 1: probably never be a huge company, but it's had a
Speaker 1: huge effect. Shows like yours that came completely out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: you know, with people who were not nationally famous, and
Speaker 1: then you become nationally famous just because you're being honest.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, look at your own life. It kind
Speaker 1: of tells the story. I don't know how old you
Speaker 1: were when you started it, but your a cent and
Speaker 1: the ascent of a number of people like you, not
Speaker 1: just to cover politics, but who are you know, effectively
Speaker 1: cultural commentations or comedians who are honest theovon You know
Speaker 1: how many people have heard of Theovonn last year?
Speaker 3: Maybe you know some, but.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, Theovonn becomes this phenomenon because he's honest.
Speaker 1: I mean, so there's a massive space that's all reaction
Speaker 1: against the lying, and I think it's like the bright
Speaker 1: spot in America in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's very kind of you to say.
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that's true, what a
Speaker 2: lot of people want to hear from you, I think,
Speaker 2: is that you played the game at the highest level.
Speaker 2: And so are all of our suspicions true about what's
Speaker 2: being told to people in the anchor chair, about what
Speaker 2: you can say, about what you can't say about commercial impact,
Speaker 2: about the pressure in the cooker situation, as to what's
Speaker 2: being controlled that people are seeing.
Speaker 1: You know, I really should write a book on this,
Speaker 1: if not that anyone would read it, but just to
Speaker 1: sort of work out my own thoughts about it.
Speaker 3: You know, again, when you're working in a.
Speaker 1: Business that's that regimented, you know, the show every night
Speaker 1: exactly the same time, it can be late.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like your whole life.
Speaker 1: And I wrote my script, So my whole life was
Speaker 1: about writing my script, like that's kind of all I did.
Speaker 1: So I was telling you that to admit that I
Speaker 1: missed a lot. I personally, because this was not my
Speaker 1: first show. It was like my eighth show that I'd
Speaker 1: had over the course of my life. I made a
Speaker 1: very clear deal with my employer out loud and just said, look,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be told what to say or think.
Speaker 3: Period.
Speaker 1: It's not my company. If you don't like what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: take me off the air. But I'm not going to
Speaker 1: sort of say or not say something because that would
Speaker 1: violate my conscience and I can't do that. And they agreed,
Speaker 1: to their great credit, and then at the end they
Speaker 1: exercised their option and pulled the plug, which is was
Speaker 1: their prerogative.
Speaker 3: And I wasn't really mad.
Speaker 1: I was confused, but I wasn't mad about it, and
Speaker 1: I'm not mad now.
Speaker 3: So I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1: But I will say, looking back on it, the Ukraine
Speaker 1: War and the VAS and to some extent January sixth,
Speaker 1: on which I think I've been fundamentally vindicated. And I
Speaker 1: had out of step views on all three things. But
Speaker 1: two of them were absolutely you know, were red lines,
Speaker 1: like you couldn't go there. And I'm not exactly sure why.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think for different reasons. The VACS, because
Speaker 1: obviously the pharma companies are the biggest aver tizer in media.
Speaker 1: They don't advertise to sell their products.
Speaker 3: You're not you know, people.
Speaker 1: Aren't buying mostly you know, they can't buy them directly,
Speaker 1: So why are they doing that. Well, they're doing that
Speaker 1: not to sell the product, but to influence the coverage
Speaker 1: of the product, and that's very effective. So I crossed
Speaker 1: that line in a big way because I thought the
Speaker 1: VACS was dangerous and it turns out it was. And
Speaker 1: then on Ukraine, it's like every single person in the
Speaker 1: top one percent for income and influence, like literally almost
Speaker 1: every single person heard this weird frequency, this dog whistle
Speaker 1: that commanded them to worships Lenski, and I'm not exactly
Speaker 1: sure what that was. I looked at Zelenski and I'm like,
Speaker 1: that guy's really bad. He wants to get my country
Speaker 1: involved in a nuclear war. And you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know him, so I'm not attacking him personally, but anyone
Speaker 1: who wants my kids to risk death in a nuclear
Speaker 1: war is my enemy.
Speaker 3: It was just kind of that simple.
Speaker 1: So I was like, this guy's evil to the extent
Speaker 1: that he's acting against my children's interests.
Speaker 3: And saying that was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: It was like a bomb going off, Like people couldn't
Speaker 1: even deal with it. And I'm not quite sure what
Speaker 1: that was, other than everybody in aspenin Huckett, Jackson and
Speaker 1: Bethesda was like all in on this thing. And someday
Speaker 1: historians will discover why. I really don't know, but but
Speaker 1: that fact is true.
Speaker 3: That's such an important point.
Speaker 2: And this is another thing too, I've always respected the
Speaker 2: most is you know, to a certain extent, I rejected
Speaker 2: the system early on, but you came up in it,
Speaker 2: and you also openly gave them a middle finger, even
Speaker 2: while growing up next to them, living next to them,
Speaker 2: for years. I've watched it with Ukraine, and I watch
Speaker 2: it now with Israel. You know, I watched in particular
Speaker 2: there was a lot of consternation around some comments you made,
Speaker 2: I think by Ben Shapiro another where we were like, well,
Speaker 2: I've never seen this level of care about Americans who
Speaker 2: are dying of fentanol, which I think is a traditional
Speaker 2: nationalist message, and yet I've watched the entire kind of
Speaker 2: right wing ecosystem get embroiled and fundamentally, what is a
Speaker 2: third world conflict? Now we can say support, you know,
Speaker 2: not support, We can have criticisms et cetera for that,
Speaker 2: but what explains this like literal allegiance to narrative on
Speaker 2: Ukraine on Israel? Why is it that so many of
Speaker 2: these people don't see to have the same level of
Speaker 2: care for actual American citizens?
Speaker 1: You know, I find it really distressing, And in both
Speaker 1: of those conflicts, I approached it with a clean conscience
Speaker 1: because I just don't have strong feelings one way the other,
Speaker 1: and I'm not hostile. I've never hated Ukraine. I don't
Speaker 1: have any feelings about Ukraine and Russia the same thing.
Speaker 1: I've never been to either place, and I'm not invested emotionally,
Speaker 1: so I could I could just look at it from
Speaker 1: an American perspective. In the case of Israel and the
Speaker 1: Arab world, I've spent a fair amount of time in both,
Speaker 1: and I like both. And I felt terrible for the
Speaker 1: people who were killed on October seventh. I still do
Speaker 1: so didn't I had no weird motive. I was just like,
Speaker 1: thinking about it from an American perspective, is this good
Speaker 1: for us?
Speaker 3: Or is it not?
Speaker 1: And I was just amazed by the intolerance and the
Speaker 1: willingness to immediately go to invective and character assassination.
Speaker 3: And it's like what I said, you.
Speaker 1: Know, first of all, if the people who live in
Speaker 1: Goza are being moved out are so evil and dangerous
Speaker 1: that they can't live in the region, why would you
Speaker 1: want them to move into my country? I mean those
Speaker 1: what are you saying they can't live there because it's
Speaker 1: too scary to live next to them, But they can
Speaker 1: live next to me. So I at that point, that's
Speaker 1: I felt very hostile about that because it showed such
Speaker 1: contempt for me and my family and my neighbors and
Speaker 1: my country. It is my country. That's how I feel
Speaker 1: about it. Anyway, it's all of our country. And so
Speaker 1: I was like disgusted by that, and I said so,
Speaker 1: and I don't know why that's weird. Why wouldn't I
Speaker 1: be offended by that? And then it was immediately you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a hater, a bigot or something like that. None
Speaker 1: of that registered with me because you know, first of all,
Speaker 1: I've been attacked for so long, but attacks that aren't true.
Speaker 1: You know, if somebody said, you know, wow, you've gained
Speaker 1: some weight this summer, I'd be like, oh, it would
Speaker 1: hurt my feelings because it's true.
Speaker 3: Someone's like someone's.
Speaker 1: Like, oh, you're a hater, you hate You know, that's
Speaker 1: not true.
Speaker 3: So I don't really care.
Speaker 1: But I did think it showed like the level of
Speaker 1: not just corruption, which I knew, but of like emotional
Speaker 1: instability and crazy. I mean, there are people and I
Speaker 1: stop reading any of it, but there are people on
Speaker 1: the right who have spent the last two months, every
Speaker 1: single day focused on a conflict in a foreign country
Speaker 1: as their own country becomes dangerously unstable, on the brink
Speaker 1: of financial collapse, with tens of millions of people who
Speaker 1: shouldn't be here in the country. We don't know their identities,
Speaker 1: or the purpose of their being here, like stuff that
Speaker 1: could destroy the country for real and make it impossible
Speaker 1: for my kids to live here. They've said nothing about that,
Speaker 1: and they're focused with laser intensity on foreign conflicts. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, at some point, I've got four kids. If
Speaker 1: I'm so caught up in the problems of my neighbor's
Speaker 1: children and completely ignoring my own children as they get
Speaker 1: addicted to drugs and kill themselves, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: against helping my neighbor's kids, but clearly I don't love
Speaker 1: my kids. I mean, that's that's you know, that's the
Speaker 1: only logical conclusion. And they don't care about the country
Speaker 1: at all, and that's, you know, that's.
Speaker 3: Kind of their prerogative.
Speaker 1: But I do because I have no choice because I'm
Speaker 1: from here, my family's been here hundreds of years. I
Speaker 1: plan to stay here. Like, I'm shocked by how little
Speaker 1: they care about the country, and including the person you mentioned,
Speaker 1: And I can't imagine how someone like that could get
Speaker 1: an audience of people who claimed about care about America
Speaker 1: because he doesn't obviously right.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, I mean, Tucker, we've seen it too on
Speaker 2: free speech. I mean, people who've built become multimillionaires, who've
Speaker 2: you know, made entire careers, who've you know, literally became famous,
Speaker 2: you know, on this very reason. I know you've spoken
Speaker 2: about this previously, but it's very important to our audience
Speaker 2: as well, is that, you know, standing up for free
Speaker 2: speech rights of people do disagree with is is probably
Speaker 2: the most important exercise, and we've seen some of that
Speaker 2: come for American citizens on Pali Sine, how do you
Speaker 2: work through this too, when we're both under such immense pressure,
Speaker 2: even social pressure of like how could you support this?
Speaker 2: You know, take maybe the context of the university presidents.
Speaker 2: We've got billionaires like Bill Ackman, who's there.
Speaker 3: I'm curious what you make of this.
Speaker 2: My assessment is they're upset that they're not included as
Speaker 2: marginalized within the DEI regime. They claim to be against
Speaker 2: the DEI regime. But will you really keep going to
Speaker 2: make sure that you know, all this racial hatred and
Speaker 2: all this other has been enshrined and elite institutions will
Speaker 2: be you know, once you get a win, are you
Speaker 2: really going to keep going past that? What's your assessment
Speaker 2: of this general moment on Palestinian you know, free speech
Speaker 2: hypocrisy and more.
Speaker 1: Well, we have free speech in this country, and it
Speaker 1: applies to people we disagree with by definition period. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's the first rate guaranteed that of course, it precedes
Speaker 1: government is given to us by God, as the document says.
Speaker 1: But it's the first right enumerated in our founding documents.
Speaker 1: So it's the foundation of the country. And so you
Speaker 1: can't give any any ground on that, like none, and
Speaker 1: anyone who would give ground on that, and I would
Speaker 1: include the governor of Florida, who I think is a
Speaker 1: good governor and I like him personally, but signing a
Speaker 1: you know, signing a censorship bill and completely unacceptable.
Speaker 3: And I don't care what your motives are.
Speaker 1: I mean it led this spring there was some black
Speaker 1: nationalist group that was indicted by the Biden's Justice Department
Speaker 1: for its views on Russia. And my first thought was,
Speaker 1: you know, that's not acceptable. Now, how much do I
Speaker 1: have in common with the black nationalist group that I
Speaker 1: guess probably hates people look like me. Actually, I probably
Speaker 1: one hundred percent chance i'd like him if I had
Speaker 1: dinner with them. There are really good guys. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just sort of feel that. But but whatever, it
Speaker 1: was irrelevant to me, you can't do that. You can't
Speaker 1: try to put people in prison for expressing opinions the
Speaker 1: government doesn't like or the ruling class doesn't like, or
Speaker 1: any opinion, any opinion, any opinion must be protected, or
Speaker 1: no opinions are protected.
Speaker 3: So anybody who seeks to limit my.
Speaker 1: Ability to say what I think, believe what I want
Speaker 1: is treating me as a slave. As a slave, I mean,
Speaker 1: not as a human being, and certainly not as a citizen.
Speaker 1: That's just really clear. And I don't know why people
Speaker 1: don't grasp this. And but you know, one sort of
Speaker 1: parenthetical ironic note to see people who spent a career
Speaker 1: mocking you know, the sensitive liberals on campus who are
Speaker 1: on safe spaces and they're you know, feeling in.
Speaker 3: Danger because opinions are violence.
Speaker 1: Say that exact same thing, people feel unsafe what you know, No, no,
Speaker 1: you know, words are not violence. You have to tolerate
Speaker 1: them in a free society, or it's not a free society.
Speaker 1: As to the question of DEI, the whole thing is
Speaker 1: Jim Crow. I mean, it's grotesque the idea that certain people,
Speaker 1: on the basis of immutable characteristics, get certain privileges and
Speaker 1: other people are hurt on the basis of their immutable characteristics.
Speaker 1: Like that's totally incompatible with America. It's got to be
Speaker 1: a colorblind meritocracy or it can't keep going because it's
Speaker 1: a pluralistic society. There's no majority of anything that has,
Speaker 1: you know, anything in common. So to keep the country together,
Speaker 1: it has to be based on merit I mean, game
Speaker 1: this out. And also, by the way, we're going to
Speaker 1: get to violence really soon if this stuff continues. If
Speaker 1: you tell people that this group or that group is
Speaker 1: bad because they're in that group, because they look a
Speaker 1: certain way, or because their parents look a certain way.
Speaker 1: If you tell them that, over time, that group's going
Speaker 1: to get hurt. And we don't need to guess about
Speaker 1: this will actually happen in Europe not that long ago,
Speaker 1: but it's happened throughout history.
Speaker 3: So why are we tolerating this?
Speaker 1: Been for a second and the reason, of course is
Speaker 1: white guilt and self hatred.
Speaker 3: Well whatever, get over it.
Speaker 1: It's not about white people, it's not about any specific group.
Speaker 3: It's about the country.
Speaker 1: The country can't continue if we allow this to continue.
Speaker 3: So I think.
Speaker 1: Dei is you know, people, we don't like it because.
Speaker 3: You're right, it hurts you or whatever.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, but yeah, sure, but that's kind of not
Speaker 1: the point. I wouldn't like it was aimed at Filipinos,
Speaker 1: and I would be, as everybody is loud about it,
Speaker 1: like why would I like that?
Speaker 3: It's totally immoral.
Speaker 1: It's the thing we said we hated Jim Crow and
Speaker 1: the nurrembern glaws.
Speaker 3: I mean, name it.
Speaker 1: It's like it's the original sin of man attacking people
Speaker 1: on the basis of things that they can't control they
Speaker 1: were born with, Like you can't do that.
Speaker 3: Period.
Speaker 2: For years, people have been like, you know, Tucker is
Speaker 2: a Trump Sicka fan, and I said, well, I've always
Speaker 2: said I thought you were misunderstood because you would criticize
Speaker 2: Trump for things that they do, but only for things
Speaker 2: that they didn't want you to criticize him for.
Speaker 3: You would praise him on.
Speaker 2: That, but you would criticize him for things like economic policy,
Speaker 2: for foreign policy, for things though that the liberal establishment
Speaker 2: actually agreed with him on. I know you talked recently
Speaker 2: about supporting Trump as a result of the mar A
Speaker 2: Lago rate and more. I'm curious, you know, given that
Speaker 2: his biggest is his biggest legislative accomplishment as president was
Speaker 2: a Paul Ryan style Tax Cuts and Jobs Act bill. Yes,
Speaker 2: what's your confidence that things will change economically in the
Speaker 2: second term or do you have any confidence at all?
Speaker 3: I mean, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: I was offended by that, not on ideological grounds, because
Speaker 1: I don't think that's what the country needed. And the
Speaker 1: fact that the carried interest loophole remained in that legislation
Speaker 1: enraged me then and it enrages me thinking about it now.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think that we should have different
Speaker 1: tax rates for you know, work or money. I mean
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if you invest, you pay the
Speaker 1: same tax rate as someone who goes to work every
Speaker 1: day period. And I don't understand why we have, you know,
Speaker 1: the richest people paying half the taxes. I think that's
Speaker 1: like actually insane, and it will make your country volatile
Speaker 1: over time.
Speaker 3: It discourages work. How could it not.
Speaker 1: They don't want you to smoke cigarettes, so they tax
Speaker 1: cigarettes more than they tax say, eggs, and that, you know,
Speaker 1: discourages people from smoking. Well, if you tax labor at
Speaker 1: twice the rate of capital, what are you discouraging labor?
Speaker 1: And I believe in labor. I believe in work. I
Speaker 1: think it confers dignity.
Speaker 3: I really mean that. It's not a talking point.
Speaker 1: It's true for me, if I had a billion dollars,
Speaker 1: I took it to work every day because I'm a
Speaker 1: man and that's my identity, it's my purpose.
Speaker 3: I want to contribute something.
Speaker 1: So any society that discourages that is insane, and that
Speaker 1: Bill continued to do that. So yeah, I'm mad about it,
Speaker 1: and about a lot of other things. I mean, but
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you're like, it's a choice, and
Speaker 1: you got to go with the better one. I guess
Speaker 1: in general, I kind of just want to stay out
Speaker 1: of politics because it's it's not appealing to me on
Speaker 1: any level. And also, honestly, I just really don't like
Speaker 1: the people just personally. You know, Nicki Haley's like a
Speaker 1: disgusting person in person, and I just don't want to
Speaker 1: be around anyone like that ever in my life, because
Speaker 1: I'm fifty four and I just life's too short, and
Speaker 1: I have all these wonderful people I love around me.
Speaker 3: I want to be with them and my dogs.
Speaker 1: So however that you know the Rada mar A Lago,
Speaker 1: the Colorado Supreme Court decision yesterday, you know those are
Speaker 1: kind of you know, that's too far, And so it's
Speaker 1: not about defending Trump, the man who I actually liked personally,
Speaker 1: can think he's hilarious and interesting. But even if I
Speaker 1: hated him, I would still feel the same way that
Speaker 1: you can't allow that. If you allow, say, someone to
Speaker 1: be punished without being convicted of a crime. The Chloro
Speaker 1: Supreme Court said yesterday that Trump has to be punished
Speaker 1: for committing instructional He's never been convicted of insurrection. So
Speaker 1: if you allow that, it's like I think Sagar and
Speaker 1: Jetty is a you know, wife beater, so.
Speaker 3: We're gonna put him in jail.
Speaker 1: Well, actually, he's never even been charged with wife beating,
Speaker 1: much less convicted.
Speaker 3: How can we put him in jail.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a precedent that can't stand. You can't have that.
Speaker 1: And I would say, by the way, same for Joe
Speaker 1: Biden if they tried to a to Biden and be like,
Speaker 1: you can't do that because you'll destroy this essential thing
Speaker 1: we have, which is a fair justice system.
Speaker 3: But nobody else seems to care. But I care, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: you certainly do. I'm curious.
Speaker 2: You know, you've always taken a lot of flak too,
Speaker 2: again from the establishment here in Washington, mostly right around
Speaker 2: your position on economics. You talked about the carried interest loophole.
Speaker 2: I'm curious what you think of unions and Republican policy
Speaker 2: towards unions, especially given that so many union voters are
Speaker 2: now backing Trump not just for cultural reasons but also
Speaker 2: for hope and a different type of economic message. How
Speaker 2: do you think of Republicans should think about unions.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have so many of course, in a
Speaker 1: union have been my whole adult life. My father was
Speaker 1: in a union, you know, after SAG and I as
Speaker 1: a kid worked in a union plant and a factory
Speaker 1: and for three months, so you know, I've seen it
Speaker 1: from a bunch of different angles, and I've worked in
Speaker 1: union jobs in television. I mean, the idea of unions
Speaker 1: is very appealing to me. You need a counterbalance to
Speaker 1: corporate power. You know, there's the owner of the company
Speaker 1: and then the people he employs whose labor makes him rich,
Speaker 1: and they should have some power too. I completely agree
Speaker 1: with that one hundred percent. Labor unions in the United
Speaker 1: States have behaved so despicably, sold out their members so
Speaker 1: completely on the issue of immigration. I mean, labor unions
Speaker 1: were responsible historically for limits on immigration because more people
Speaker 1: willing to work for less undermines the bargaining position of labor. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I mean that's not high math, okay, And so for
Speaker 1: labor unions to be encouraging mass immigration, I'm trying not
Speaker 1: to use vulgarity here, but screws over their own members
Speaker 1: and betraying people you're responsible for is the greatest possible.
Speaker 3: Sin, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: That's I mean, that is the worst thing you can
Speaker 1: do as a human being, in my opinion, So I'm
Speaker 1: very mad about that. I like the idea of labor
Speaker 1: unions one hundred percent. Show me one that actually advocates
Speaker 1: on behalf of its members and I'll send him money
Speaker 1: because I love the idea of that. And labor has
Speaker 1: no power, not just labor unions we say labor. We
Speaker 1: all produce labor, and we don't have any power. All
Speaker 1: power is concentrated in finance, not all power, but wildly
Speaker 1: disproportionate percentage. And those who like you know, if you're
Speaker 1: twenty three, you think, well, that's kind of how economics
Speaker 1: works as in the world.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: No, no, It wasn't always this way at all. Farmers
Speaker 1: had massive power. They feed the country and keep them
Speaker 1: from starving. They had the Grange movement of the late
Speaker 1: nineteenth early twentieth centuries.
Speaker 3: I live next to a.
Speaker 1: Grange building which is defunct because they farmers have no power.
Speaker 1: Of course, now, I mean I could go on forever,
Speaker 1: but the point is the idea of unions is not
Speaker 1: only good, it's essential, and the people who run them
Speaker 1: have really been disgraceful. And I would say that's true
Speaker 1: across the board. The military. It's like the military is,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the best people in the country
Speaker 1: serve in the military, and they are led by the
Speaker 1: worst people, right, I mean the Republican Party. I like,
Speaker 1: you know, rural Republican voters some of the best people
Speaker 1: I've ever met. The people the RNC some of the
Speaker 1: worst people. So you have this weirddynamic of you know,
Speaker 1: the bulk of people being pretty decent, pretty common, sensible,
Speaker 1: pretty you know, warm and tolerant, nice, and then their
Speaker 1: leaders being like utterly rapacious and deceptive, creepy.
Speaker 2: It's like that, Tucker, how do you think Republicans should
Speaker 2: handle the abortion politics? After Roe versus Wade, which has
Speaker 2: been pretty significant downward pressure on them at the ballot box.
Speaker 3: How should they approach it? You know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm the last person to give politically, and my brain
Speaker 1: doesn't work that way, and I you know, I just
Speaker 1: I'm not I would be.
Speaker 3: A terrible strategist.
Speaker 1: And I've been a kind of a terrible strategist in
Speaker 1: my own life. Obviously I keep getting fired, so you know,
Speaker 1: obviously I'm not very good at that. I can send
Speaker 1: my own feelings on it, which are super simple if
Speaker 1: you can sit. I mean, there's no dispute that of
Speaker 1: a child in the woman eight months as a person,
Speaker 1: of course. And if you allow people to kill other
Speaker 1: people because they're inconvenient, then you've that's a profound statement.
Speaker 1: You know, you're not allowed to kill people except in
Speaker 1: self defense period. Otherwise you are a monster, and you're
Speaker 1: reserving the powers that no human being can have because
Speaker 1: we're not God's And so the idea that the government
Speaker 1: would encourage people to kill other people is really scary.
Speaker 3: I feel that way about euthanasia.
Speaker 1: I feel that way about the death penalty a lot
Speaker 1: of the time, and I just think we're and I'm
Speaker 1: not Catholic, just just to be completely clear. This is
Speaker 1: not someone else's theology that I'm parroting. It's just very obvious.
Speaker 1: I am a Christian that you and if I weren't,
Speaker 1: and the times in my life when I haven't been,
Speaker 1: I had the same view. You don't want to encourage
Speaker 1: the casual killing of other people. That's like terrifying and
Speaker 1: by the way, it'll come back and get you.
Speaker 3: So. But the other thing I would say is like
Speaker 3: the fertility rate.
Speaker 1: I mean, at this point, we're you know, kind of
Speaker 1: below I would say, we're below replacement. I haven't seen
Speaker 1: this the latest numbers, but we're clearly below replacement. And
Speaker 1: if you don't have children, the whole point of life
Speaker 1: is of children, is to reproduce. And every other culture
Speaker 1: and every other period and recorded history has felt that
Speaker 1: way because it's self evident.
Speaker 3: What's your purpose on earth?
Speaker 1: Well to continue, you know, to continue your line, your
Speaker 1: genes or whatever with your descendants. That's that's the most
Speaker 1: basic human desire. And we deny it's the most basic
Speaker 1: human desire. We do everything we can to thwart it.
Speaker 1: And you have to ask yourself, like.
Speaker 3: What is that?
Speaker 1: I mean, is the problem in Janet Yellen, who is
Speaker 1: a ghoul and a disgusting human being who got rich,
Speaker 1: you know, from the banks. Issue was supposed to be
Speaker 1: regulating them at the FED. She said six months ago
Speaker 1: that the like the most important piece of our economic.
Speaker 3: Policies that you have more abortions.
Speaker 1: And it's like, really, if you think having more kids
Speaker 1: is the problem, and a lot of these people really
Speaker 1: do think that. I have to like wonder about your
Speaker 1: motives a little bit. If you're if you're encouraging me
Speaker 1: not to have kids, you don't like me. And this
Speaker 1: is like the crazy thing about black you know, the
Speaker 1: and I have a really good Black friend who I
Speaker 1: always say this to. It's like if I say to you,
Speaker 1: you know, you're great, just don't reproduce. We don't want
Speaker 1: more people like you. You know, the abortion rate in
Speaker 1: Black America is super super high. There's a reason for that.
Speaker 1: It's playing parenthoods everywhere. They target that community. And I
Speaker 1: don't know why more people don't say, if you're targeting
Speaker 1: me or my children and trying to convince us not
Speaker 1: to reproduce, then.
Speaker 3: I don't think you really love me.
Speaker 1: You can tell me you love me, but if you're
Speaker 1: trying to get me to have an abortion. I think
Speaker 1: you may be lying, but nobody says this because it's
Speaker 1: framed in like my rights or whatever, really bodily autonomy.
Speaker 1: You're gonna give me that lecture after the COVID vacs
Speaker 1: my body, my choice? Where were you when they were
Speaker 1: forcing my children to get it?
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: My body might They don't believe.
Speaker 3: That for a freaking second.
Speaker 1: They're liars, But why the rest of us not respond
Speaker 1: with like, hey, shut up about my body, my choice,
Speaker 1: you vax creep.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I remember a lot of a lot of people who
Speaker 2: made that exact point and were absolutely shut down at
Speaker 2: the time. I know you're on a tie schedule. My
Speaker 2: last questionnaire is we have shared, we have shared passion
Speaker 2: for UFO transparency, and you made a comment very recently
Speaker 2: which has gotten a lot of attention in the UFO world.
Speaker 2: They've learned things that have made you afraid. And I've
Speaker 2: seen there's been a lot of I think right minded skepticism,
Speaker 2: not even just from not even just from people who
Speaker 2: were more established minded others who are like, well, if
Speaker 2: the government is quote unquote acknowledging UFOs, and that's how
Speaker 2: I know that it's not real. So you seem to
Speaker 2: be a believer. You've spoken with Dave Grusha. I've met
Speaker 2: him as well. It seems like a very uh he
Speaker 2: at least at the very least, I don't think he's
Speaker 2: lying to me whenever I was spoken to him. So
Speaker 2: what gives you assurance that what you're hearing, what you have,
Speaker 2: what you've come to believe is not a government siop so.
Speaker 1: To speak, Well, everything's government, including UFOs, but that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that doesn't mean that.
Speaker 3: There aren't UFOs.
Speaker 1: And I think I know the comment you're a franchios
Speaker 1: on Clayton Morris is an OL friend of mine called
Speaker 1: Clayton Moore podcast.
Speaker 3: Is a great guy, really interested in this topic.
Speaker 1: And I said that there are things that I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about, and I, as usual, didn't fully
Speaker 1: explain myself. If I had, you know, verifiable facts about
Speaker 1: this phenomenon, I would immediately put them on the air
Speaker 1: because I'm committed to that completely, because my whole life
Speaker 1: is about that. So I should have said more clearly,
Speaker 1: I can't be certain this is just what I believe
Speaker 1: based on, you know, talking to an awful lot of
Speaker 1: people about this, some of whom I.
Speaker 3: Trust a lot some of them I trust sort of.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're trying to piece it together from lots
Speaker 1: of different places, but no, they're there.
Speaker 3: These are my views.
Speaker 1: Okay, they can't be proven, but I think they're in
Speaker 1: form views that the phenomenon is real.
Speaker 3: It's been recorded for thousands of years.
Speaker 1: We know that there's something buzzing around us in the skies,
Speaker 1: but also under the oceans we now know, and probably
Speaker 1: underground as well, So it's real. The government's lied about
Speaker 1: it a million different ways, probably for a million different reasons,
Speaker 1: for at least eighty years.
Speaker 3: That's also confirmed. They're lying about it now.
Speaker 1: Who knows what their motive are, and they're also trying
Speaker 1: to keep a lot of this stuff from being disclosed.
Speaker 3: That's true. Yes, So do those people think it's a.
Speaker 1: Siop, Well, yeah, everything's a SIAP. But I know for
Speaker 1: a dead certain fact and it's provable.
Speaker 3: That's ay.
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell and Speaker Johnson and people who should in
Speaker 1: a couple committee chairmen who should all know better, are
Speaker 1: trying to prevent the UAP Disclosure Act of twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three from taking effect in a meaningful way. So they
Speaker 1: are trying to hide it. Still, that's a fact. My
Speaker 1: own view is that these are not aliens. There's no
Speaker 1: evidence that they've come from somewhere else. We would probably know.
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of a lot of technology that's
Speaker 1: watching what comes in and out of the atmosphere, and
Speaker 1: there's no evidence of that.
Speaker 3: I think they've been here forever. They're not. This is
Speaker 3: my view.
Speaker 1: Again, I can't be proven, but I'm just telling you
Speaker 1: after a lot of conversations, I think it's likely that
Speaker 1: the US government has had contact with these direct contact,
Speaker 1: and you know, over a period of years.
Speaker 3: I find that really disturbing.
Speaker 1: Because I you know, and a bunch of other things
Speaker 1: that that are highly distressing that I can't prove, and
Speaker 1: so I'm sorry, not going to throw them out there,
Speaker 1: but I can.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you this.
Speaker 1: I've talked to a lot of people about this, not
Speaker 1: because I've never been interested in UFOs until like five
Speaker 1: years ago and I was like, wait, this is real,
Speaker 1: what is this? Why don't we talking about this. I'm
Speaker 1: just like coming at it from a totally idiotic, I
Speaker 1: don't know anything curious position, which is my normal posture
Speaker 1: on everything. And so I've talked to a lot of people,
Speaker 1: and my view is that they're you know, this is
Speaker 1: my opinion that there are things about this that are
Speaker 1: really disturbing. And while I hate any kind of government secrecy,
Speaker 1: and if I could prove any of this, I would
Speaker 1: say it immediately, consequences be damned, I do sort of
Speaker 1: understand why they don't want to let this stuff out.
Speaker 1: It's not about, oh, we've got fragments of one of
Speaker 1: these crafts at a Lackey you know, facility in California,
Speaker 1: and we have biologics from the you know, everyone knows
Speaker 1: that that's likely true. Well, it's certainly true that they
Speaker 1: have the you know, pieces of this stuff, but I
Speaker 1: think it's likely that it's it's it's darker that and
Speaker 1: that the US government is I said, the US government,
Speaker 1: people in the US government, not the US government.
Speaker 3: But you know, there are.
Speaker 1: Part it's a vast it's the largest human organization history.
Speaker 1: Parts of it, you know, have knowledge that is very,
Speaker 1: very disturbing. And I personally think strongly think that there's
Speaker 1: a spiritual component to this that I don't understand and
Speaker 1: will not pretend to understand. But I think it's very
Speaker 1: clear that there's a spiritual component to this.
Speaker 3: That's one of the reasons the Vatican, and I'm again
Speaker 3: not Catholic, but.
Speaker 1: Has been involved in this for over one hundred years,
Speaker 1: has an observatory et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: pretty obvious that these are not men from Mars that
Speaker 1: I think that was a sigh oup because I think
Speaker 1: the truth is a little bit wilder and has deeper implications.
Speaker 3: Just than that.
Speaker 2: Given us even more to think about. Tucker, I want
Speaker 2: to thank you for your time, really appreciate it. I
Speaker 2: encourage everybody to go and sign up for your subscription
Speaker 2: program level link in our description. And as I said
Speaker 2: at the beginning, I appreciate you gave me my start
Speaker 2: in this business. I would not be sitting here without you,
Speaker 2: and I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 3: You you you beat me.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like crazy what you've done, and I
Speaker 1: love it.
Speaker 3: So I appreciate you. All right.
Speaker 2: Great to see you, m