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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Think about packages just

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Speaker 1: for a second. Is there anything more exciting than the

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Speaker 1: potential of what's contained inside of a package? And when

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Speaker 1: I say package, I'm not talking about some kind of

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Speaker 1: fancy envelope that arrives from whatever carrier where you kind

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Speaker 1: of rip that seal off of it. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: a package where you've got something that's arriving from either

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Speaker 1: a department store, or you've got it coming to you

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Speaker 1: as a birthday gift, or maybe even Christmas. You look

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Speaker 1: at a Christmas tree and you think about all of

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Speaker 1: the brilliantly wrapped packages, and the one word that comes

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Speaker 1: to mind is potential. Why is that going to talk

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Speaker 1: about potential? We're going to talk about potential energy, because

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Speaker 1: when you unwrap a package there could be anything in there.

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Speaker 1: For today's discussion, we're going to talk about a package

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Speaker 1: that was so devastating when opened that the poor soul

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Speaker 1: that opened it was almost vaporized. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks Dave Mack. When I was a

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Speaker 1: little boy, the thing I always wanted and was never given.

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Speaker 1: I'm a grown man. I still think about this I

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Speaker 1: ought to go out and buy it right now. I

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Speaker 1: always wanted an ST's rocket set, and for some reason,

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Speaker 1: those that had parental control over me never trusted me.

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Speaker 1: I guess they thought I was going to put my

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Speaker 1: eye out or blow something up. But I always wanted

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Speaker 1: an ST's rocket set. I always had visions, you know.

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Speaker 1: I came up just like you when the moonshot was

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Speaker 1: going on, and it was fascinating to me because with that,

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Speaker 1: I saw what could happen when this thing was initiated

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Speaker 1: and would go up in the air. I've always been

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Speaker 1: fascinated by going to fireworks shows. I just took my

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Speaker 1: family down to our favorite place in the world, an

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Speaker 1: island off of the shore of Alabama, Barrier Island, called

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Speaker 1: Dauphin Island, and we sat down there and watched the

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Speaker 1: Fourth of July fireworks over the Gulf of Mexico, which

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Speaker 1: is an astounding thing to see reflected there in the water,

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Speaker 1: that explosive event where you see the chemistry literally brought

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Speaker 1: to life because of all of the different chemicals that

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Speaker 1: are contained in these explosions. So I've always been fascinated

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Speaker 1: by this. But you know, this case that we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today, it involves somebody that was, in a more

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Speaker 1: sinister sense fascinated by explosions as well.

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Speaker 2: Stephen Beale is a man who is an actor, claims

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Speaker 2: to be and many other things in his career, but

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Speaker 2: the biggest one is a model rocket hobbyist. He actually

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Speaker 2: claims to have had one of his model rockets achieve

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Speaker 2: Mack two. But safe to assume that Stephen Beal has

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Speaker 2: been a man consumed with model rockets and realizing that

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Speaker 2: to send a rocket up, you've got to have an explosion,

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Speaker 2: a controlled explosion, and that would kind of lead you

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Speaker 2: down the path of explosives bombs, which is where this

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Speaker 2: story comes into play. Stephen Beal was involved in a relationship.

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Speaker 2: So Ildigo and Stephen had been dating for a while,

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Speaker 2: and Ildego is this beautiful, vibrant Hungarian and they met online.

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Speaker 2: He had been married previously showed Sochi, and Stephen Bial's

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Speaker 2: first wife had passed away in an odd way. It

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Speaker 2: was some mystery surrounding that there was.

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Speaker 1: Can I interject something real quick because talking about chemicals here.

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Speaker 1: One of the things about Stephen Beale's first wife's death

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Speaker 1: there was alleged to have been the substance of lead,

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Speaker 1: the element lead involved in her death. But the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner slash Corner never could come to a conclusion. They

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Speaker 1: just said, I've seen it quoted as mysterious circumstances. Right.

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Speaker 2: The thing is part of the reason they had trouble

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Speaker 2: with it is Steven Beal would not cooperate with the investigation.

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Speaker 2: He would not cooperate with her doctors, he would not

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Speaker 2: cooperate with the coroner. He would not cooperate with investigations.

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Speaker 2: When somebody dies unexpectedly, there is an investigation. When it

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Speaker 2: came right down to it, they never were able to

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Speaker 2: come up with a suitable finish. So it was left

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Speaker 2: open pretty much. And we'll come back to that in

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Speaker 2: a minute, because it will come back into play, believe

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Speaker 2: it or not. So we have Stephen bial and his

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Speaker 2: girlfriend Ildego, and they both have a passion. They live

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Speaker 2: in southern California, by the way, we're talking about Orange County,

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Speaker 2: Long Beach in that general vicinity, and together they open

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Speaker 2: a spa day spa. At this spa, there are a

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Speaker 2: number of people who actually are there because of Ildego

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Speaker 2: and her relationship with Hungary, her family coming from Hungary,

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Speaker 2: and her friends. You come from another place, you tend

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Speaker 2: to gravitate towards those you have a similar background in language.

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Speaker 1: I've been out to La many times to do television

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Speaker 1: shows and everything, and you know who I find many

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Speaker 1: times that are limo drivers that I come in contact with,

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Speaker 1: are people that are part of the Albanian culture. And

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Speaker 1: I've gotten to know several of those people find people,

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Speaker 1: and I would have imagined that there is probably what

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Speaker 1: do they refer to it as a diaspora of Hungarians

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Speaker 1: that are located there as well. And you're right, they

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Speaker 1: get together in like this little clutch. And because Lord

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Speaker 1: have mercy, just looking at the spelling of her name,

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Speaker 1: it it'd be difficult to pronounce. I can only imagine

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Speaker 1: how hard it is to assimilate. You want people that

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Speaker 1: can actually enter. Would you speak your own language and

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Speaker 1: remind you of home?

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Speaker 2: And you've pointed out speak your own language and remembering home,

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Speaker 2: and that all plays into this as well, because Ildigo

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Speaker 2: was very attached to her family, and in May she

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Speaker 2: actually had gone and spent time in Hungary, her native nation.

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Speaker 2: Want to back up to Stephen Beale and miss Ildego,

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Speaker 2: they had been in a relationship, but the relationship fell

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Speaker 2: apart after they opened the spa. It was kind of

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Speaker 2: a compact period of time here between the relationship beginning

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Speaker 2: and the spa opening. Happened fairly quick and they were

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Speaker 2: both all in, but the relationship broke down. Stephen Beale

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Speaker 2: and Ildigo were no longer a couple, but they were

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Speaker 2: still partners in the spa. But Stephen was more of

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Speaker 2: a silent partner. He wasn't really there much, but he

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Speaker 2: had a key. He still had a key, that's what

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Speaker 2: allowed him access to the spa while missus Ildego had

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Speaker 2: gone back to Hungary to visit her mother and other

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Speaker 2: family men.

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Speaker 1: What a kind of an interesting dynamic that two people

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Speaker 1: would be involved in this kind of romantic relationship and

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Speaker 1: then this kind of dissipates. They break up for whatever

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Speaker 1: reason at this point in time, but you still have

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Speaker 1: a business relationship. And I know that there are other

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Speaker 1: relationships out there like this, But how awkward would that be?

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Speaker 1: Because whatever friction existed romantically, you have to think that

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Speaker 1: it's going to probably bleed over into the business relationship.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know anything about running a day spa,

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Speaker 1: but I would imagine much like a restaurant it's something

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Speaker 1: that you have to have attention on, like twenty four

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Speaker 1: to seven. You're always thinking of it, just to keep

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Speaker 1: the thing afloat.

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Speaker 2: Ildigo was actually a licensed cosmetologist and Stephen Bill was not.

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Speaker 2: Stephen Bill was a part time actor and businessman and

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Speaker 2: rocket hobbyist, but he had no background in cosmetology. He

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Speaker 2: had no background in running a spa. Ildigo did. So basically,

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Speaker 2: she was the license cosmetologists heading up the spa and

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Speaker 2: he was just a partner in the business because at

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Speaker 2: the time they started it, they were a couple romantically linked,

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Speaker 2: and when that broke down, Ildigo had moved on and

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Speaker 2: she was dating somebody, certainly at least one romantic rival

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Speaker 2: for Steven Bial, and Steven Bial was not really moving on.

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Speaker 2: He said he was, but not really. He was pretty

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Speaker 2: obsessed with her. So when Ildigo comes back from her

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Speaker 2: trip to Hungary, she's in the spa and there's plenty

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Speaker 2: of mail. There were a couple of boxes, a bunch

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Speaker 2: of letters, and there were two of her Hungarian friends

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Speaker 2: who were also there at the spa that morning, and

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Speaker 2: it was in that moment when she was checking the

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Speaker 2: mail that Ildigo picked up one of the boxes and

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Speaker 2: opened it. The forty eight year old was blown up

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Speaker 2: by opening this box. It was such a big explosion

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Speaker 2: that when investigators looked at it when they first got

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Speaker 2: the call about an explosion, they thought gas line or

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Speaker 2: something along those lines. When they got there and found

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Speaker 2: out it was a box that had something in it,

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Speaker 2: they're like, this is not an accident. The two other

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Speaker 2: women were injured, but Ildigo was killed pretty much you

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Speaker 2: mentioned vaporized. It happened real fast, and at forty years old,

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Speaker 2: she was dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And when you begin to think about bombings, you

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Speaker 1: think about a kill radius. And we've seen this over

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Speaker 1: the years. We've been at war for a long time

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Speaker 1: as a country and unfortunately, and I personally have have

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Speaker 1: had former students of mine that have died as a

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Speaker 1: result of improvised explosive devices overseas. And you know, they

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Speaker 1: talk about a blast radius. Sometimes you'll hear the term

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Speaker 1: kill radius and how much of that energy travels outward

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Speaker 1: and can really wreak havoc. But when you begin to

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Speaker 1: talk about an explosive device that goes off inside of

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Speaker 1: an enclosed space, that's a completely different dynamic. But Dave,

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Speaker 1: I know this, when that explosion initiated. I can tell

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Speaker 1: you who wasn't there, Stephen William Beal. I always have

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Speaker 1: trouble pronouncing some of these names in southern California. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what it is. Dave. I know you're from

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Speaker 1: southern California originally and from the OC. I believe I've

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Speaker 1: always wanted to say that in a conversation.

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Speaker 2: Joe, I actually lived about a mile and a half

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Speaker 2: from where this house was in Long Beach, where Stephen

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Speaker 2: Bial's house.

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Speaker 1: Was, well, where his house was, but I think the

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Speaker 1: SPA was in a place called Alicio vheo. Is that

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Speaker 1: how you pronounced it vio in southern California in the OC.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, mister Stephen Beial, actually he was a Long

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Speaker 1: Beach resident and tobacco a little bit. We have to

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Speaker 1: understand that this case has been ongoing for some time now.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about roughly five years down range when this

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Speaker 1: thing is finally adjudicated. This occurred in the morning on

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Speaker 1: May fifteenth, twenty eighteen, and I can just imagine you're

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Speaker 1: hanging around the firehouse, you're a local firefighter, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the bell starts cleaning and you're

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Speaker 1: getting reports that are rolling in to the fire station

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Speaker 1: where they're saying there has been an explosion. There's actually

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Speaker 1: been an explosion, and the fire department. I know the

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Speaker 1: police will show up, but the firefighters in this case,

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Speaker 1: these are the people that are right on point, because

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Speaker 1: when you think about explosion, one of the first things

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Speaker 1: you think about, other than the devastation that takes place

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Speaker 1: as a result of the initiation of this event, is

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Speaker 1: going to be associated fire and then having to triage

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Speaker 1: any injuries that might be there. And of course the

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Speaker 1: fire department is uniquely equipped to do this. All these guys,

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Speaker 1: most of them are at some level in paramedical training,

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Speaker 1: whether it's an EMT or a full on paramedic. So

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Speaker 1: when they arrive at this location, there is what's referred

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Speaker 1: to and you'll hear this in bomb investigations. They see

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Speaker 1: from Jump Street that this is what they have what

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Speaker 1: they call a debris field. So you've got these fragmented

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Speaker 1: bits and pieces that are everywhere. Interestingly, when you roll

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Speaker 1: up on a building and you see a structure that's

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Speaker 1: kind of blown out like this, the first thing you're

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Speaker 1: going to think of is not a package bomb, a

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Speaker 1: mail bomb. You're going to think gas Maine explosion. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Dave, I don't think I've ever mentioned this

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. I actually worked a case, and this

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Speaker 1: is early on in my career. Again, I was still

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Speaker 1: in the New Orleans area when this happened. We had

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Speaker 1: a family that had gone off on vacation and they

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Speaker 1: had a brick ranch home. One of the eyes on

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Speaker 1: their gas of and had been left on and the

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Speaker 1: house was filled with gas and there was mail stacking

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Speaker 1: up on the front porch of the house. Their male

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Speaker 1: person had come by and kind of checking status to

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Speaker 1: see who was there. And when the doorbell was wrong,

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Speaker 1: that was enough. That was an initiator because of the

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Speaker 1: current that it set off a blast that literally leveled

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Speaker 1: this brick home. That's how powerful a gas explosion is,

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Speaker 1: and it took it down to it literally took it

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Speaker 1: down to the slab. There were homes damaged. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the person that rang the doorbell was deceased, and you

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Speaker 1: have all of these types of events that occur like this.

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Speaker 1: The first thing you're going to think of when you're

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Speaker 1: a firefighter and you're rolling out, you're hearing explosion is

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Speaker 1: not going to be package bomb. It's just that's not

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Speaker 1: on your radar. I mean, you've heard about them, but

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Speaker 1: most of the time you're thinking that this is some

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Speaker 1: kind of gas main leak that happens.

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Speaker 2: We tend to see things on television and movies and

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Speaker 2: have a certain visual that applies to seeing an explosive.

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Speaker 2: In reality, it doesn't happen that way. You're not watching

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Speaker 2: for it, your eyes are not trained on it. It's

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Speaker 2: something that happens, like in this particular case. I was

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Speaker 2: reading one of the victims who survived, and she said

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Speaker 2: that her back was turned. She didn't see when when

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Speaker 2: Mozildiago List lifted the box or opened it. She didn't

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Speaker 2: see that. But she described what she did see, and

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Speaker 2: it was a bright light and it was being pushed

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Speaker 2: into a wall, and it was a dramatic recounting of

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Speaker 2: something she didn't see. What she knew when arriving on

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Speaker 2: a scene and you we've got fire and police body

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Speaker 2: parts were found in the parking lot. What does that

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Speaker 2: tell you? From the outside looking and showing up at

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Speaker 2: the scene. Where do you start in examining the deceased?

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Speaker 2: Do you start with the foot in the parking lot?

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Speaker 1: Well, you secure it. That's the most important thing, any

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Speaker 1: kind of well, anything there. It's not just simply the

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Speaker 1: anatomical elements that are torn apart, that are torn to

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Speaker 1: shreds in this environment. From an investigative standpoint, every bit

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Speaker 1: of fragment that's out there has the potential to lead

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Speaker 1: back to an explanation. We're not talking suspect at this point.

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Speaker 1: We're talking explanation because that's what you want to know.

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Speaker 1: What happened. What brought this about is hey, look we've

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Speaker 1: got one explosion. Is there a chance that there will

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Speaker 1: be another explosion? So we have to be very careful

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Speaker 1: out there and what will occur. I know that many

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Speaker 1: people have seen over the years when you watch crime

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Speaker 1: shows and all these sorts of things, you see these

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Speaker 1: little evidence markers that we put out. Lots of times

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Speaker 1: there are these little yellow tents. They're made out of

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Speaker 1: heart plastically have numbers on them. What happens with a

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Speaker 1: debris feel this big many times is that instead of

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Speaker 1: little yellow markers, many times you'll have various colored little

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Speaker 1: flags that are placed out there, and each color will

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Speaker 1: denote a different type of item. Let's just say you

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Speaker 1: have a biological sample that's there, maybe you'll put a

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Speaker 1: green flag by that. And when I say biological sample,

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Speaker 1: it could be like, for instance, a part of the

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Speaker 1: limb that's you can look at and say, okay, that's

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Speaker 1: a hand. Or you could look down and just see

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Speaker 1: kind of a little mound of what appears to be

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Speaker 1: red tissue, and that might be say, thigh muscle, but

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Speaker 1: you have no idea what particularly it is, but it

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Speaker 1: has some kind of resemblance to something that may have

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Speaker 1: originated from a body, and you get this kind of

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Speaker 1: commingling of all of this debris. So if you've got

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Speaker 1: mortar where it's been holding together bricks, and this building

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Speaker 1: does have a brick facing on it, and glass and metal,

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Speaker 1: so you'll get this kind of commingling of all of

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Speaker 1: these different items. You might have a bit of muscle

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Speaker 1: that's immediately adjacent to a bit of brick, So you

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Speaker 1: could have little flags all in one particular area, dependent

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Speaker 1: upon what you're looking for. And there were two patrons

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Speaker 1: inside of this place, who, by the way, have never

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Speaker 1: been named. There's no need to name them by the courts.

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Speaker 1: But I can't tell you this, these two unfortunate ladies

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Speaker 1: that were in there. From what I understand and what

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Speaker 1: has been put forward. They have been scarred for life,

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Speaker 1: and that's not unexpected. You know, my office worked the

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Speaker 1: infamous Olympic Park bombing back in nineteen ninety six, And

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Speaker 1: for my money, I don't want to go chasing rabbits

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Speaker 1: here in this conversation, but I will say that one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest heroes of all time was Richard Jewell.

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Speaker 2: The guy that they blamed for it at first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the guy that they blamed for it. And because

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Speaker 1: he reoriented that device at that particular time when he

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Speaker 1: recognized it, a lot of lives were spared. But we

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Speaker 1: did have one victim of the blast that died as

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Speaker 1: a direct result of the initiation of that device. But

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't hear about all of the victims

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Speaker 1: that were there at Centennial Park that night that were

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Speaker 1: maimed for life, that will carry scars for the rest

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Speaker 1: of their life. So well, there are there were other

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Speaker 1: people that were grievously injured that were out there. And

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Speaker 1: when you have that kind of event that goes on

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Speaker 1: in that environment, if you have these eye or ear witnesses.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned this one lady that didn't see it, but

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Speaker 1: she apparently felt it and her back was to it.

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Speaker 1: I think she may have been in another room and

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Speaker 1: she actually talks about this force that knocks her down.

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Speaker 1: That's a real important part of the mechanics of an

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Speaker 1: explosion because there's multiple elements.

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Speaker 2: You.

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Speaker 1: First off, when you think about explosions, you have potential

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Speaker 1: energy and what does that mean. Well, say, in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, you have a box that is sitting there.

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Speaker 1: It's not doing anything, it's not necessarily inert, but it

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Speaker 1: has to have a triggering mechanism. So we have potential

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Speaker 1: energy that is sitting there, and when that thing is

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Speaker 1: released is released and that trigger mechanism takes place, then

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Speaker 1: the explosion initiates and you have a sequence that goes

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Speaker 1: through it. Where in this particular case, a non volt

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Speaker 1: battery was actually used as the little electrical charge and

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Speaker 1: that's really all that it took. And Dave, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this case, in this debris field, it's hard to

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Speaker 1: imagine for me it is because, yeah, people think I'm

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Speaker 1: a detailed person because I'm an investigator by trade, but

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Speaker 1: when it gets down to these little fine points, it's

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Speaker 1: frustrating to me. They actually found the body half of

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Speaker 1: the body of a non volt battery that was still

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Speaker 1: contained at the scene. And you know what else, This

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Speaker 1: thing was so powerful that the wiring that was used

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Speaker 1: in this blast, in this device, if you will, was

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Speaker 1: blown up into the ceiling and they actually recovered that wiring.

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Speaker 1: And so when you're looking at this from an investigative standpoint,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a gigantic jigsaw puzzle, and you don't

339
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 1: know what is actually it contains value and what doesn't.

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Speaker 1: What's going to point to a reason as to what

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Speaker 1: happened at the scene, But everything has a certain level

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Speaker 1: of importance to it. Where to begin is a question

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Speaker 1: I think that many people have asked over the years.

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Speaker 1: When you have an explosion event that occurs, the starting

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Speaker 1: point is obviously is to triage everybody is there. That

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Speaker 1: is that anybody that survived this event. You think that

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Speaker 1: is going to have the potential to make it out alive.

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Speaker 1: You get them out of there soon as you possibly can.

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Speaker 1: But after that, Dave, everything has potential to be evidence,

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Speaker 1: and everything is treated that way and the scene is

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Speaker 1: immediately locked down.

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Speaker 2: This happened. Police were thinking on their way to the scene.

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Speaker 2: Before they get there, they know they've had an explosion,

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Speaker 2: and so they're thinking gas line or and again it

355
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Speaker 2: does come up in discussion, what's the possibility we're dealing

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Speaker 2: with somebody committing an act of terror, but is it

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Speaker 2: a car bomb? They didn't know, but when police arrived,

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Speaker 2: when investigators arrived on the scene, they knew based on

359
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Speaker 2: the severity of Ildego's injuries and the size of the blast.

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Speaker 2: They knew right away or believed based on experience that

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Speaker 2: it was a homicide, that this was an intentional act.

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Speaker 2: Now they just had to determine why she the intended

363
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Speaker 2: target or was it somebody else where it took place,

364
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Speaker 2: and who was holding it. And immediately they look at

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Speaker 2: and once you've determined a homicide, who are the closest

366
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Speaker 2: to you're looking at husband's boyfriends, things like that. And

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the wire and the nine bolt battery, and

368
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Speaker 2: that really was a huge part of their investigation because

369
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: the wire was embedded in the ceiling. So as part

370
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,479
Speaker 2: of their investigation of putting all this back together, they

371
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Speaker 2: start at the bomb. But now they're doing background work

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Speaker 2: on her relationships and who else benefited from this type

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Speaker 2: of an act of aggression. You're the forensic guy. You

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Speaker 2: know there's a bomb. We can all tell it was

375
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Speaker 2: a bomb, but don't you have to be able to

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Speaker 2: examine the body of the victim here and determine what

377
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Speaker 2: actually caused their demise. It's not enough to say that

378
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Speaker 2: she was blown up. It has to be more than that,

379
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Speaker 2: because you have to figure out what was the bomb

380
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Speaker 2: made of so you can figure out who built it?

381
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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, you do. The body is going to reveal

382
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: blast trauma. Remember, she's the one that has opened this

383
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: package day, that has initiated the sequence. Her body, her

384
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Speaker 1: clothing that that remains will have what's referred to as

385
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: bomb residue on every bit of her.

386
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Speaker 2: Is that similar to like the stippling we get when

387
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Speaker 2: somebody puts a gun up against somebody's body, against their skin.

388
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be. It can also be. It has

389
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: a real close familial chemical familial context to gunpowder residue

390
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: testing GSR. It's the same principle. You go into an

391
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: environment and you're checking to see if they have powder

392
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 1: residue on them. In this case, we're talking about a

393
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: variety of different chemicals that were actually involved in this

394
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Speaker 1: case where you have things that are well, let me

395
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Speaker 1: kind of give you the view of it. What we

396
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Speaker 1: do know is that there was a substance that Beal

397
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: had access to that. Have you ever seen a magician

398
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: that would take what's referred to as flash powder and

399
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: kind of throw it down and smoke kind of goes up. Well,

400
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: there's a chemical that he had access to. That's the

401
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: name of it is potassium perchlorate. And so it is

402
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: a flash powder. And what this means is that you

403
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: actually see in percussion caps with gunfire. Okay, so the

404
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: little cap that's in the base of a bullet, in

405
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: the base of an ammunition, similar composition, and it's an

406
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: unstable compound. It burns very quickly, and that's what you

407
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: want when you're initiating a firing sequence.

408
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 2: When you say unstable versus stables, that mean it can

409
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: just go off if you bump it.

410
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: No, it's not like liquid nitroglycerin or something I'm just

411
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: talking about. When it's initiated. It has to be initiated

412
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: with like fire being applied to it or electricity. In

413
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: this case, it was an electric current. It's going to

414
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: go off really quickly because it burns so quickly, and

415
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: it's kind of chemically unstable when compared to to say,

416
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: for instance, black powder, which was found at mister Bill's residence.

417
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: It's a bit more stable, but highly more explosive. This

418
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: is the trick trying to understand how to mix all

419
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: of these chemicals and understand. Bill was an amateur rocket guy,

420
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: like we mentioned Dave. Reportedly, he has launched rockets that

421
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: were so large that it required a team to assist him. Now,

422
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Speaker 1: he would go out in the desert in California, which

423
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of desert out there, and some of

424
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Speaker 1: these rockets, these homemade rockets that he built, were as

425
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: tall as a house. Just kind of wrap your mind

426
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: around that that a private citizen would build one of

427
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: these things. And I think it's grand that people can

428
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: do that if they know what they're doing and all

429
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: of that. But you mentioned the speed at which that occurred,

430
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: the velocity of these things. I think you had mentioned

431
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: mock too. I had heard certainly upward above mock one

432
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Speaker 1: relative to the rate at which these things were ascending.

433
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: But he also had a background. He was a pyrotechnic

434
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: enthusiast as well, which means that he dealt with fireworks.

435
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: And I would imagine if he was in the movie

436
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: industry thinks he's an actor that sort of thing. Maybe

437
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: he was an actor. I have no idea, but maybe

438
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: he had some experience in that realm as well. But

439
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: you have to understand the composition when you begin to

440
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: think about this flash powder when combined with not just

441
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: black powder, but there's also a substance out there referred

442
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: to as red gum, which is unique in that it's

443
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: used as a binder in fireworks. And this is the

444
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: thing about it, and it is so fascinating from scientific standpoint.

445
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: Red gum and black powder are both organic substances, which

446
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 1: means that they're made from some base materials that are

447
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: out there that are like red gum essentially hence gum.

448
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: It's actually extracted from a plant and has been known

449
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: for years and years. So that's an organic substance. So

450
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,719
Speaker 1: when you're trying to do your chemical testing and you

451
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: do these chemical swabs that they do, you know where

452
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: they'll apply it to a surface. If you get a

453
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: hit on this, then you say, oh okay, well this

454
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: chemical is here. You do another hit and maybe you'll

455
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: find some kind of inorganic substance that's kind of chemically constructed,

456
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: made in a laboratory like this. It's not really it's

457
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: more refined, and you combine those two things. You say, well,

458
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: I have these two elements out here that I know

459
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: that when combined, create a hell of an explosion. And

460
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: that's what happened in this particular case. When he loaded

461
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: up that box with this explosive mixture that he had

462
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: and he initiated this thing with the battery, all hellbro clues.

463
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: Here's another thing that's from an investigative standpoint. You can

464
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: have wire, you can have a nine volt battery, you

465
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: can have all of these various chemical elements that are

466
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: out there. But if you don't know how to construct

467
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: this thing, that's a problem because it's just all of

468
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: those elements in and of themselfs are not necessarily going

469
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: to be lethal. But it's putting all of these pieces

470
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: together and then going into an environment which you have

471
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 1: access to, placing it amongst all the other male that's

472
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: there on ac counter. And you know she's coming. What'd

473
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: you say that she's just taken a trip to Hungary, had.

474
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: She Yeah, she had been in Hungry visiting family, and

475
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: this was my understanding her first day back, and that's

476
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: why the two women were there for their small treatment.

477
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: And it was early enough in the day that she

478
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,239
Speaker 2: still had her mail, and because her business partner and

479
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: former love interest Steve and Bill had a key to

480
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: the facility, during the investigation, they were able to figure

481
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: out a lot. But you know, I wanted to point

482
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: out something, Joe. And this is a common practice in investigators.

483
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: When somebody's dead and you know it was an intentional act,

484
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: as they believe from the beginning on this, they immediately

485
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: start looking at close associates, love interest And in this case,

486
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: you have the ex boyfriend who talking to a few friends,

487
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: they find out he was very obsessed with her and

488
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: she has begun dating other people. He suspect here, Stephen

489
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: bial is immediately somebody they're going to look into. So

490
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: we're talking a day after this bomb went off. The

491
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: day after the police show up at his house with

492
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,959
Speaker 2: a warrant. They want to look around.

493
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: How many people do you know in your little circle

494
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: have experienced I mean real experience with explosives where they're

495
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: building rockets and they're doing pyrotechnics, and do you know

496
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: that many people around you? And so as an investigator,

497
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: this is an excellent point. You know, here this lady

498
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: who originates from Hungary, she's been in a romantic relationship

499
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: with a guy that builds rockets and has access to

500
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 1: explosives and if thing by asking him about it, he

501
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: can simply say, oh, yeah, I'll build rockets or I

502
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: like to do fireworks, and people say, oh, okay, well

503
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: that explains a lot.

504
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: It explains everything, but it also points wait a minute,

505
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: your ex girlfriend and business partner got blown up, Well

506
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: who are the possible people? And immediately he's right there.

507
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: So they go on search his house. And this is

508
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: one of those police things that I'm sure that within

509
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: your your realm of your sphere of influence and talking

510
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: with investigators that I bet y'all have some funny discussions

511
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: about we're gonna we're gonna get this guy. We're gonna

512
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: just trip him up a little bit. Because when they

513
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: went to his house, they already knew so much. But

514
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: when they went to his home in Long Beach, a

515
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: search warrant was served and Joe. They found it mostly

516
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: in his garage, but some inside the house, about one

517
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty pounds worth of explosives. They found a

518
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: seven foot tall rocket, They found own rocket making equipment,

519
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: two containers of potassium percalora. I don't know how to

520
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: say it is that on the periodic table. I don't know.

521
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: My table's got pizza on it. So you've got the

522
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: tube container. You mentioned the red gum. He's got two

523
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: containers of that and at least three containers of black powder. Now,

524
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: according to the affidavit, Bill told detectives he saw media

525
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: coverage of the explosion and claimed he did not have

526
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: material to create an explosion that large.

527
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would raise suspicions for me. And that's what's

528
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: so fascinating by about this case is that it took

529
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: so long to make it through the system. We're talking

530
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: about twenty eighteen, and what Bill was engaged in rises

531
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: to a federal crime. You've got the FBI getting involved,

532
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: the ATF, who arguably the premiere organization that investigates fires

533
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: and explosions. That's kind of their Baileywick, if you will,

534
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: and not to mention, you know, all of the other

535
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: associated groups where you've got people, certainly in southern California

536
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: that are very well equipped to handle events like this,

537
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: And you think about who has this kind of knowledge,

538
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: who has access to these materials, who has the ability

539
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: to gain access to a location where he knows that

540
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: the intended target would be able to put her hands

541
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: on this thing that's going to create this event. And

542
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: of course he's nowhere around the area when this thing initiates.

543
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: He's the owner of the business. She hasn't been around

544
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: for a few days. They got mail that stacked up.

545
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: There's CCTV footage of him at any number of times

546
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: going back and forth into these locations, which I think

547
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: played a key role because you're putting him in that

548
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: location as he is entering this building and this sort

549
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: of thing, and then he knows because you know, this

550
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: guy blows things up in big open areas. You've been

551
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: to a firework show. These things are done in a distance,

552
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: they're out in an open area. But Dave, here's what

553
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: actually brought about her death. The fact that this potential

554
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: energy that was contained within this bomb was contained within

555
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: a structure. So you've got a bomb contained in a

556
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: box and the box is contained in a structure. This

557
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: is what's referred to as a pressure event. You've got

558
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: this intense pressure. If you've ever seen anybody shake up

559
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: a bottle of just champagne and then pop the cork on,

560
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: the pop goes, the cork goes flying off in the distance,

561
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: that's very minimal when you think about the pressure that

562
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: is initiated. That pressure from that device going off is

563
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: trying to seek that location where it can free itself

564
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: into the open air and it will eventually dissipate, but

565
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: it has to travel this course that goes through furniture,

566
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: through a desk, through a wall, and ultimately through the

567
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: body of an innocent victim. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

568
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: this is bodybags.