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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that many of our guests have been

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Speaker 1: released from prison, either before or after our coverage was released,

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Speaker 1: but others continued to languish behind bars for crimes they

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Speaker 1: didn't commit, including the man whose case we're going to

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Speaker 1: highlight again today, John Jones. The Ohio Innis's Project is

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Speaker 1: still hard at work to set him free, and this

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Speaker 1: is his story of how a grieving father's loss was

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Speaker 1: compounded by his wrongful conviction. John Jones and Deja Ruiz

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Speaker 1: had three children while working on their high school diplomas.

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Speaker 1: After celebrating Deja's mother's birthday on March eighteenth, twenty ten,

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Speaker 1: the young family laid down to sleep. Despite the expected

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Speaker 1: waking and feeding that comes with six month old twins,

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Speaker 1: the night was ordinary. When Deja left for school at

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Speaker 1: eight am, John propped some bottles on a blanket near

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Speaker 1: twins Jada and Jasmine and went back to sleep. Then,

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Speaker 1: when John woke again at nine forty am, turned on

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Speaker 1: cartoons for his son and went to attend to the twins.

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Speaker 1: Jada was unresponsive. In a panic. He called family and

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Speaker 1: nine one one. The dispatcher coached him through CPR until

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Speaker 1: first responders arrived and took over. He did everything a

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Speaker 1: concerned father would do, but when testing was done at

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Speaker 1: the hospital, doctors found what they mistakenly thought was conclusive

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Speaker 1: evidence of lethal child abuse. However, over the next decade,

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Speaker 1: the science that they used to support John's conviction has

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Speaker 1: crumbled under the weight of reality. Had a jury heard

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Speaker 1: all the other now logical explanations for the symptoms present

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Speaker 1: in little Jada's body, John Jones never would have served

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Speaker 1: a day of his fifteen to life prison sentence. This

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason.

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Speaker 1: That's me, of course, your host, and today we're here

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Speaker 1: to tell you the heartbreaking story of John Jones, who

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Speaker 1: was just seventeen years old when his six month old daughter,

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Speaker 1: Jada Ruiz died, and shortly thereafter, the tragedy was compounded

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Speaker 1: by the hubris of some in the medical establishment and

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Speaker 1: legal system armed with the junk science of shaking baby syndrome.

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Speaker 1: And today I'm joined by a phenomenal co host. Avid

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Speaker 1: listeners will remember Greg glod from the Junk Science episode

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Speaker 1: on roadside drug Testing. He is the criminal Justice fellow

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Speaker 1: at Americans for Prosperity. Greg. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Jason, thank you so much for allowing

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Speaker 2: me to co host. You and I have gotten close

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Speaker 2: over the last couple of months. I've been working on

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Speaker 2: criminal Justice Reformed since about twenty fifteen now, and to

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Speaker 2: be able to do this today and co host, is

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Speaker 2: you know, really an honor? So no, I really thank

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Speaker 2: you again.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm the one who really should feel honored, and

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Speaker 1: not just because you've joined us, but also because with

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Speaker 1: us is one of the world's lead experts in one

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Speaker 1: of the most troubling aspects of our criminal legal system,

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Speaker 1: shaken Baby syndrome. Now she was also featured on Wrongful

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Speaker 1: Conviction Junk Science when we covered this subject. The executive

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Speaker 1: director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Kate Judson,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Hi, thank you so much, Jason, and Hi Greg.

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Speaker 1: And last but not least, we have with us staff

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Speaker 1: attorney at the Ohio Innocence Project, the man who's representing

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Speaker 1: John Jones, Donald Caster. Donald, Welcome to Wroneful Conviction. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for being here.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Jason, thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 1: And we'll be joined very soon by John Jones. Was

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Speaker 1: going to be calling in from Lebanon Correctional Facility in Ohio.

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Speaker 1: But first let's get a little background on what John

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Speaker 1: was up against when Jada became unresponsive.

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Speaker 2: Kate, can you give a brief history on shaken baby syndrome?

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Speaker 2: You know where it came from, this hypothesis, and then

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Speaker 2: how did it start to enter its way into the

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Speaker 2: criminal justice system as a viable scientific theory to convict

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Speaker 2: caretakers of murder, Sure.

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Speaker 3: Greg, Shakin baby syndrome was originally proposed as a hypothesis

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Speaker 3: to explain a phenomenon that a pediatric neurosurgeon in Great

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Speaker 3: Britain was seeing in his patients. He would sometimes have

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Speaker 3: infants who died or were seriously ill without a clear

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Speaker 3: cause and without external trauma, and yet the internal features

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Speaker 3: looked a lot like kids who had suffered some kind

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Speaker 3: of traumatic injury. So those findings were subdural hematoma, which

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Speaker 3: is bleeding between the coverings of the brain, retinal hemorrhage

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Speaker 3: which is bleeding at the back of the eye, and

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Speaker 3: encephalopathy and cerebral edema, which sort of acts together as

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Speaker 3: one leg of what sometimes people call the triad. Ceribril

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Speaker 3: edema is brain swelling and encephalopathy is brain dysfunction. And

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Speaker 3: so doctor Guthkelch, the pediatric neurosurgeon, was seeing these findings

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Speaker 3: in kids and they looked injured on the inside but

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Speaker 3: not on the outside. And he thought that one reason

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Speaker 3: for that might be a common disciplinary technique in his

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Speaker 3: home Northern England in the seventies, which was shaking. And

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Speaker 3: so what doctor goth Kelch said is that these medical

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Speaker 3: findings could be due to shaking. And doctor goth Kelch

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Speaker 3: wasn't claiming to have the answers, but rather that he

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Speaker 3: was hypothesizing about what might be causing these findings. So

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Speaker 3: that started to evolve. A radiologist in New York, John Caffey,

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Speaker 3: built on that and he published articles saying the same thing, right,

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Speaker 3: that parents should be gentle with infants. But neither of

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Speaker 3: these doctors suggested that the medical findings that they associated

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Speaker 3: with shaking were exclusively diagnostic to shaking, nor did they

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Speaker 3: say that there was a reliable way to place blame

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Speaker 3: on a caregiver when a child had these medical.

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Speaker 2: Findings, right, and so where was the switch then, from

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Speaker 2: this just being you know, a hypothesist or an unexplained

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Speaker 2: phenomena to a verifiable medical diagnosis that actually began convicting

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Speaker 2: visuals of murder of a child.

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Speaker 3: And there's a little bit of a gap in understanding

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Speaker 3: between the mid to late nine seventies and then when

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Speaker 3: we start to see these cases appear in published appellate

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Speaker 3: decisions in the late eighties, and we started to see

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Speaker 3: prosecutors and pediatricians in particular, also pathologists saying that when

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Speaker 3: children had this collection of findings, which is sometimes called

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Speaker 3: a triad of findings or a constellation of medical findings,

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Speaker 3: that shaking could be diagnosed. And that's when it comes

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Speaker 3: into the criminal legal system and we start to see

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Speaker 3: the trajectory that we're on today where parents are wrongfully

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Speaker 3: accused based on only the existence of a particular set

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Speaker 3: of medical findings. And I mean to be totally clear,

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Speaker 3: there's no debate about whether abusive shaking, violent shaking of

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Speaker 3: an infant is dangerous. It is and no one should

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Speaker 3: do it. The debate is really whether shaking reliably explains

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Speaker 3: the findings that are often attributed to it, whether shaking

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Speaker 3: can be diagnosed as the cause of those findings.

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Speaker 2: Kate, and doing my research for this, there is a

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Speaker 2: large concentration of these shaken baby syndrome cases in the

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Speaker 2: state of Ohio. And so I just wanted to see

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Speaker 2: if you had any explanation behind why Ohio kind of

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Speaker 2: had a higher rate of shaking baby syndrome cases than

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Speaker 2: many other jurisdictions across the nation.

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Speaker 3: Researchers aren't one hundred percent sure why some places have

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Speaker 3: higher concentrations of diagnoses of SBS than others. It's probably

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Speaker 3: a combination of factors. But some of those factors include

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Speaker 3: prosecutors who are particularly aggressive in going after these are

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Speaker 3: kinds of accusations, the media attention certain cases receive in

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Speaker 3: certain media markets, and the child abuse pediatricians or forensic

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Speaker 3: pathologists who work on these cases, if they have a

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Speaker 3: particular belief or bent, then there are more likely to

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Speaker 3: be more accusations of shaking within that person's jurisdiction or

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Speaker 3: area of control. And Ohio is one of those places.

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Speaker 1: And now we'll go to Lebanon Correctional Facility to speak

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Speaker 1: with a young man who was doing his best as

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Speaker 1: a young teenager to raise three kids while finishing high

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Speaker 1: school in the third largest shaken babyies syndrome epicenter in

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Speaker 1: the country, Akron, Ohio.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is a prepaid debit call.

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Speaker 5: From an inmate. It's Elebanon correctional facility to accept this call.

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Speaker 3: Press zero to prevent.

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Speaker 2: This call is from a correction facility and is subject

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Speaker 2: to monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for using GTL. Hello John, Yeah this job John.

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Speaker 1: Like I always say, I'm glad you're here with us,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sorry because of the reason you're here, or

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Speaker 1: more to the point, because of where you are.

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Speaker 6: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted you to take us back, if you will,

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Speaker 1: to your life before this absolute horror happened. You were

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Speaker 1: growing up in Akron.

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Speaker 7: I grew up with four sisters who struggled.

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Speaker 6: I grew up poor. He moved around a lot.

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Speaker 5: My mom has some struggles strugg edition alcohol addiction. My

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Speaker 5: father as well had the same struggles. Regardless of what

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Speaker 5: she was going through her own personal problems. My mom

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Speaker 5: always was around, she was always with us. But my

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Speaker 5: grandmother end up getting customery of me.

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Speaker 6: When I was real young. She just put us on

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Speaker 6: a path to try to be as successful as we could.

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Speaker 6: Growing love.

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Speaker 5: I did real good at school, always was like an

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Speaker 5: honor roll student. Once I became a teenager, and that's

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Speaker 5: when I came.

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Speaker 6: Into contact with my child's mother.

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Speaker 5: I met her December sixteenth, my fourteenth birthday, and my

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Speaker 5: son was can see nine days later.

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Speaker 7: On Christmas Eve, Christmas night.

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Speaker 6: So now on fourteen, I'm expecting a child on the way.

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Speaker 6: I knew that I had.

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Speaker 7: A responsibility now, so school.

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Speaker 6: No longer was a priority. My did what I needed

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Speaker 6: to do to provide for him.

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Speaker 5: As time progressed, me and her eventually began to establish

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Speaker 5: a relationship get closer. A couple of years later, that's

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Speaker 5: when my twins were can See.

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Speaker 6: Jada and jazz Man. We ended up getting an apartment

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Speaker 6: together on our own.

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Speaker 5: My grandmother was still technically my legal guardian, so I

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Speaker 5: lived with them, but I spent most.

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Speaker 7: Nights with my child's mother just to be around my children.

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Speaker 7: Growing up.

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Speaker 5: My father was always in my life, but like I said,

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Speaker 5: he was battling with addiction. Even though I loved him unconditionally,

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Speaker 5: he just wasn't the best that he could have been.

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Speaker 6: So that it made me want to make sure I

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Speaker 6: was the.

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Speaker 5: Best I could have been, regardless of how old I was,

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Speaker 5: regardless of school, whatever I was going through, I was

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Speaker 5: going to be present every single day in their life,

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Speaker 5: no matter what, regardless of the status of me and

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Speaker 5: their mother's relationship, how healthy or how unhealthy it was,

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Speaker 5: I was going to make sure I was there for

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Speaker 5: my kids no matter what.

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Speaker 1: And that's admirable. And so you, your children's mother, Desa,

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Speaker 1: your son Tyshan, and the twins Jada and Jasmine all

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Speaker 1: moved into an apartment together. Dajo was eighteen, you're seventeen,

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Speaker 1: and you were both finishing high school through an alternative

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Speaker 1: school for young parents, and somehow you're making it work.

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Speaker 1: Which brings us to March nineteenth, twenty ten.

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Speaker 7: The night before that morning it was actually her mother's birthday.

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Speaker 6: Everybody spent some time together. It was a cool little

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Speaker 6: vibe though. Everybody was on the same page.

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Speaker 7: And we went to sleep like any other day.

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Speaker 6: We slept down in the living room.

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Speaker 5: I slept on the couch, my daughter, Jaded and she

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Speaker 5: slept down on the floor with my daughter, saying, and

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Speaker 5: my son was down there with as well.

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Speaker 7: But throughout the night she.

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Speaker 5: Was waking me up, complaining about positioning or beating or

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Speaker 5: you know, my daughter might have been hungry or whatever.

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Speaker 7: She was waking me up throughout the night.

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Speaker 5: But it was just a typical day, and then that

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Speaker 5: morning she had a test that she had to go take.

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Speaker 1: Right and from what I understand, you both fed the

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Speaker 1: twins at five am and then went back to sleep.

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Speaker 1: Then Dasia woke up at seven am to get ready

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Speaker 1: for school and left around eight.

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Speaker 5: So I get up, walking through the door, you know,

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Speaker 5: wishing her look on her task, give her a kiss.

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Speaker 7: She go out.

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Speaker 5: At this point, my son's still asleep, my daughter's on

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Speaker 5: the couch, they laying down. It's early in the morning,

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Speaker 5: so I'm still tired.

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Speaker 7: I go up to my.

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Speaker 5: Daughter's I popped the bottles. I learned later on now

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Speaker 5: that this wasn't a smart.

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Speaker 7: Thing to due just because of the safety.

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Speaker 5: Concerns with a notewarm, But time I really wasn't aware

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Speaker 5: of it, and it was more like a convenient being

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Speaker 5: away of me going back to sleep, but also feeding

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Speaker 5: them if they were having So I placed the bottles up.

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Speaker 7: On the blanket and I'll prop them up so I'll put.

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Speaker 5: Them right there, and just so when they do wake up,

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Speaker 5: the bottle be right there, they'll be able to feed.

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Speaker 5: I can be able to sleep about another hour or

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Speaker 5: to whatever. Anbr everybody be cool. We did this every

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Speaker 5: day must.

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Speaker 6: Of a time, so it was just another I said,

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Speaker 6: it was just another day.

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Speaker 1: But it's at this point, between eight and nine forty

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Speaker 1: am that, according to the state's theory and what passed

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Speaker 1: for expert testimony, that you allegedly abused your daughter Jada

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Speaker 1: in such a way that it caused all of these

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Speaker 1: supposed injuries or symptoms that were later observed at the hospital,

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Speaker 1: the same ones that Kate had mentioned earlier that make

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Speaker 1: up the triad of shaking baby syndrome. But as we

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Speaker 1: now know, there are a myriad of medical conditions that

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Speaker 1: can and do cause these symptoms in addition to an

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Speaker 1: accidental or intentional traumatic event, and even in those events,

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Speaker 1: it's important to note that a child may be lucid

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Speaker 1: up to seventy two hours or even more before the

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Speaker 1: symptoms or injuries become a parent, and in this case,

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Speaker 1: they became apparent to you when you checked on Jada

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Speaker 1: and Jasmine at around nine forty am on that faithful,

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Speaker 1: awful day. And you know, as a father myself, it's

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Speaker 1: every parent's worst nightmare. So at nine forty am you

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Speaker 1: woke up, put on cartoons for Tyshon and go to

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Speaker 1: check on your daughters, only to find that Jada was unresponsive.

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Speaker 7: That was the.

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Speaker 5: Scariest moment in my life. That was the worst day

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Speaker 5: of my life. I didn't know what to do in

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Speaker 5: that moment. She wasn't breathing, she wasn't moving, she wasn't

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Speaker 5: responsor for at all. I instantly get on the phone.

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Speaker 5: My first reaction was to call our family because my

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Speaker 5: daughters were born with accid reflects.

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Speaker 6: They when they feed, they were regard to take the food.

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Speaker 6: It would come up their most sometimes it would come

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Speaker 6: up their mouth. It didn't happen every time, but it

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Speaker 6: happened frequently.

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Speaker 7: So at first I was wondering if this was the case.

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Speaker 5: So I actually called my mom and I tell them

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Speaker 5: what's going on.

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Speaker 7: But I'm panicking, so I didn't want to stay on

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Speaker 7: the phone with them too long because.

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Speaker 5: I'm realizing she's not breathing or nothing. But I called

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Speaker 5: her family as well to let them know. I get

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Speaker 5: off the phone. I called nine one one tell them

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Speaker 5: the whole situation is. I'm listening to the nine one

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Speaker 5: one operator.

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Speaker 7: She's explaining to me how to do the test confession

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Speaker 7: and the mouth to mouth. I tried. I did everything

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Speaker 7: I could.

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Speaker 5: Nothing was working like so at this point, I'm becoming

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Speaker 5: more scared, more upset. I'm crying, and I'm just waiting

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Speaker 5: seem like a second favers. They finally arrived, They grab her,

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Speaker 5: they take her out, and I begin to speak to

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Speaker 5: the detectives or whatever.

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Speaker 6: I'm telling them everything pretty much that I'm telling.

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Speaker 7: You, this my recolation of that night.

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Speaker 5: In the morning, nothing really stood out telling me. From

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Speaker 5: that point, family members started rising.

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Speaker 6: Everybody's fron sign.

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Speaker 7: We all head down to the hospital, and then a

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Speaker 7: couple hours later, that's when we.

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Speaker 5: Hear the doctor's opinion about what they believed was the

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Speaker 5: cause of everything.

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Speaker 4: When the first responders arrived then see any signs of

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Speaker 4: any external injuries. They didn't see any bruising or obvious

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Speaker 4: deformities or bone fractures. They were under the impression that

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Speaker 4: Jada might have suffered from SIDS or sudden infant death syndrome.

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Speaker 4: And the police see John doing what you would expect

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Speaker 4: a distraught father to be doing. It's an officer named

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Speaker 4: Dennis Bard starts taking pictures of the scene. There are

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Speaker 4: blankets that are collected. One of the things that's not

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Speaker 4: collected is the bottles that were feeding two of the children.

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Speaker 2: And that becomes critical later on in the state's theory

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Speaker 2: of the case.

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Speaker 4: The bottles are important, at least according to the state,

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Speaker 4: because one of the doctors who testified on behalf of

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Speaker 4: the state told the jury that how much milk and

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Speaker 4: formula was in the bottle would have been really important

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Speaker 4: in establishing the timing of abuse, because, according to the

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Speaker 4: state's doctor, Jada wouldn't have been able to consume anything

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Speaker 4: from the bottle after suffering the type of injuries that

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Speaker 4: they Jada had suffered.

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Speaker 1: And what we now know, and this is so important,

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Speaker 1: is that a child can experience seventy two hours or

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Speaker 1: more of lucidity after a traumatic event, whether accidental or intentional,

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Speaker 1: which it's not entirely clear that this is in fact

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Speaker 1: what happened to cause these symptoms. And I say symptoms

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Speaker 1: because a myriad of medical conditions can cause what happened

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Speaker 1: to Jada to happen. But we're getting a little bit

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Speaker 1: of ahead of ourselves here. So the first responders see

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Speaker 1: this situation as a non criminal death, not a homicide.

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Speaker 1: So the bottle was just left there and the lead investigator,

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Speaker 1: Detective Shady, drove John to.

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Speaker 4: The hospital, Detective Shady also does a very brief interview

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Speaker 4: of John at the time. Detective Shady and John go

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Speaker 4: to the hospital following the ambulance, and once they get

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Speaker 4: to the hospital, they find out that Jada had been

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Speaker 4: successfully resuscitated. John makes phone calls to family members to

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Speaker 4: let them know that things were at least looking a

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Speaker 4: little bit better now that they were at the hospital,

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Speaker 4: and then doctors at the hospital start to do medical tests.

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Speaker 4: They do a cat scan, other tests, and again, ultimately

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Speaker 4: the doctors began to believe that there were actual injuries

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Speaker 4: to Jada, and in fact, once they got to the hospital,

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Speaker 4: John was confronted by a doctor who who did not

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Speaker 4: testify a trial, but a significant to the case, a

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Speaker 4: doctor Darryl Steiner, who came in and told John and

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Speaker 4: the detective that Jada had suffered from what he called

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Speaker 4: non accidental injuries. The hospital staff also claimed that there

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Speaker 4: were old injuries, insinuating that abuse had taken place for

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Speaker 4: a significant period of time.

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Speaker 1: So, John, you had just been through one of the

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Speaker 1: most harrowing experiences that anyone can ever go through, and

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Speaker 1: you were waiting to hear what the path forward might

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Speaker 1: be for your daughter and the doctors at Aquan Children's Hospital,

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Speaker 1: again the number three epicenter for shaking baby syndrome diagnoses

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Speaker 1: and prosecutions in the country. Those doctors tell you the

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Speaker 1: family and detectives their opinion that the medical facts observed

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Speaker 1: in Jata retinal bleeding, subdual bleeding and brain swelling, as

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Speaker 1: well as a series of fractures, that these could only

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Speaker 1: have been the result of a non accidental traumatic event,

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Speaker 1: in other words, child abuse, violent shaking by Jada's caretaker

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Speaker 1: at the time that she went unresponsive. And again, we

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Speaker 1: now know that there are a slew of medical conditions

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Speaker 1: that can cause these symptoms, and that children can experience

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Speaker 1: seventy two hours or more of relatively normal behavior after

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Speaker 1: such a traumatic event, if a traumatic event even ever

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Speaker 1: occurred and was in fact what caused these symptoms. So

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Speaker 1: back then many in the medical establishment, these doctors thought

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Speaker 1: that they could diagnose a crime and the time of

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Speaker 1: that crime, which we now know that they could not. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: your story has remained consistent ever since that faithful day,

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Speaker 1: and nowhere in your recollection of events does even a

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Speaker 1: minor frustration occur, let alone violence shaking.

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Speaker 5: Never, never, never, We all sitting in the weiting room

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Speaker 5: or in the area when they come in and they

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Speaker 5: tell us, well, we believe that what's wrong with her

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Speaker 5: was my accident and was intentional, was caused by somebody,

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Speaker 5: was caused by specifically somebody who was there.

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Speaker 6: So then at that point I felt like I was.

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Speaker 5: Being accused or even suspected of something.

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Speaker 7: And the only other person that was there with me

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Speaker 7: was their mother.

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Speaker 6: I know I did do nothing to her. I never

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Speaker 6: will so a man. Things running through my head at

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Speaker 6: that moment.

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Speaker 5: I'm scared first and foremost most completely for my daughter.

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Speaker 5: Now I'm questioning it, like why are they saying somebody

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Speaker 5: did this? Why they say somebody causes like like did

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Speaker 5: she do something? So a conversation was had afterward outside

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Speaker 5: with just.

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Speaker 7: Me and her, and you know, I asked her straight up,

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Speaker 7: like did she do something?

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Speaker 6: And she did not.

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Speaker 5: You know, I didn't do nothing. I don't know what

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Speaker 5: they're talking about. Like, so now now I'm just confused,

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Speaker 5: like I just don't know what.

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: But they take this, continue to question me, they keep

395
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Speaker 5: talking to me. My natural reaction was to corrop grad

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Speaker 5: with them. You know what I'm saying, it's my baby

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Speaker 5: so however, I can help whatever I can say, But

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Speaker 5: at the end of the day, I don't know much.

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Speaker 7: I don't know what to say.

400
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Speaker 6: I'm confused like anybody else, everybody else, I don't know

401
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Speaker 6: what happened much.

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Speaker 5: The finger was actually pointed and blame was cast and

403
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Speaker 5: charges were brought apart me in indictments and hand cushy

404
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 5: place on me not. That's when I started feeling like

405
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,959
Speaker 5: their antentions wasn't in the right place, because if they

406
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 5: truly was, then you would have really saw out a

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Speaker 5: real answer instead of just placed it on.

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Speaker 6: Somebody shifted because they were physically and.

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Speaker 7: The wrong.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,

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00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had

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Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance

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Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in

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Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the

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00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: criminal justice area. So with misplaced conference, they attribute injuries

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00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: or symptoms to actions and persons when the science barely

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00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 1: even supported it back then, let alone now. The causes

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Speaker 1: of Jada's symptoms range from accidental or intentional drama to

419
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Speaker 1: internal For instance, there's a well recognized condition where there's

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00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: a little extra space in between the child's brain and

421
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 1: skull wretches the veins that bridge that space, which causes

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00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 1: chronic subdural bleeding. It still hasn't been determined what causes

423
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 1: this overlying condition, but birth trauma has been suggested as

424
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Speaker 1: a potential cause, whether natural or cesarian, and this condition

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00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: usually manifests within the child second to six months. Jada,

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00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: of course, was six months old when this occurred, and

427
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Speaker 1: it's logical to think that being birthed as a twin

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Speaker 1: could probably be described as a traumatic event, an event

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Speaker 1: that could cause limb fractures as well. In these shaken

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Speaker 1: baby syndrome cases, CT scans and MRIs will usually show

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00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 1: the chronic subdural bleeding as they found in this case,

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Speaker 1: which will then be used as evidence of repeated abuse. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's misused, but used anyway, when all along there's a

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Speaker 1: legitimate and logical medical explanation. Other potential causes for symptoms

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00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: like Jada's. I mean, you could write a medical textbook

436
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 1: on this right. They include bleeding disorderslogen disorders, copper disorders,

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00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: genetic disorders, vitamin deficiencies, even your everyday average household slip

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Speaker 1: and fall. But I seriously doubt whether the number three

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Speaker 1: epicenter for diagnosing or misdiagnosing child abuse did a full

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Speaker 1: genetic work up to rule out all of these potential

441
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 1: causes before it just sort of cavalierly sending John up

442
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: the river.

443
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 3: So the allegation was that Jada had a series of

444
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 3: fractures and that perhaps those fractures were of different ages,

445
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 3: and that, combined with the findings of bleeding and of

446
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 3: brain swelling, were thought to indicate trauma, and specifically trauma

447
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 3: from abuse.

448
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 4: So, unfortunately, one of the things that we know happens

449
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 4: in wrongful conviction cases all the time is that once

450
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 4: the police and in this case, doctors start to head

451
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 4: in a certain direction, it begins to be very difficult

452
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 4: for them to turn to a new path. And that's

453
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 4: what happened here. The police and the doctors didn't look

454
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 4: for any other causes. They seized on this diagnosis of

455
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 4: shaking baby syndrome and that's where they went. It's one

456
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 4: of the things that makes it harder for us to

457
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 4: successfully represent John. Not impossible. We think we'll be successful

458
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 4: in this case ultimately, but it's one of the things

459
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 4: that hampers our work some is that we don't have

460
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 4: the medical records for Jada from Jada's birth up until

461
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 4: March nineteenth. And the reason is that they were never

462
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 4: gathered by either the medical investigators or the law enforcement

463
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 4: investigators to look at and to determine whether there was

464
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 4: other symptomology, other pathology, other things going on with Jada

465
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 4: prior to March nineteenth, instead of just the medical records

466
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 4: from March nineteenth going forward.

467
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: Particularly with the SBS, we've seen over two hundred cases overturned.

468
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 2: In a lot of these, you know, it seemed clear

469
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 2: cut that there was abuse, and later on it was

470
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: either some sort of minor accident or some sort of

471
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: genetic cause to this. And so, you know, I think

472
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: people have this notion of what SBS is, and we

473
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: see clearly that there's a lot of varying reasons for

474
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: that to potentially see these findings within a child and

475
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: then they're just you know, initially ignored, but then later

476
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: come out later on when you have a full examination

477
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 2: or full medical history.

478
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: Well, and there's a lot of overlap here, greg because

479
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 3: a lot of the factors that caused children to have

480
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: either have health problems or have their health problems not

481
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 3: be appropriately diagnosed or treated, are also the factors that

482
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: doctors and child protection workers will look at to say

483
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: that statistically, a child is more likely to be abused.

484
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 3: And so what I mean by that is parents who

485
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: are young and parents who are people of color are

486
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 3: both more likely to be accused of crimes and more

487
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 3: likely to receive disparate treatment within the medical establishment. So

488
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 3: those things actually work together to create an unjust result

489
00:25:58,840 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 3: in many cases.

490
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's worth noting that just as we record,

491
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: a study was just published which showed that there is

492
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: intense cognitive bias amongst medical examiners, so much so that

493
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: when given the same exact evidence, two different groups and

494
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 1: we're talking large groups of medical examiners look at exactly

495
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: the same evidence of a three year old that was

496
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: brought to the hospital with head trauma and died were

497
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: four times more likely to rule it a homicide when

498
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: they were told that the child was black and that

499
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: the child was brought in by the boyfriend of the mother,

500
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: as opposed to the other group that was told with

501
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: exactly the same evidence that the child was white and

502
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: was brought in by a grandparent. So just to really

503
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,239
Speaker 1: put a stamp on what you were saying, Kate, So

504
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: let's turn to the arrest.

505
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 4: So John was not arrested right away, although it was

506
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 4: clear that once Jada was taken off of life support

507
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 4: and passed away, that they were going to charge him

508
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 4: with murder. John didn't have a lot of money as

509
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 4: a teenager charged with a crime. He had council appointed

510
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 4: to represent him, and then council got the court to

511
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 4: provide some funds for an additional expert witness to help

512
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 4: prepare for trial.

513
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: So at trial, what was the state's theory, what was

514
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: the evidence behind that, and then what did the defense

515
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 2: put together to refute.

516
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 4: So Deja agreed with everything that John had said previously

517
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 4: about what happened in the hour or so before Deja

518
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 4: left for school that day, So there was no inconsistency

519
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 4: between what John's been saying and what Deja said happened. Deja,

520
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: of course, claimed that she didn't do anything to any

521
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 4: of the children. According to her testimony at trial, she

522
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 4: believed John may have lied to her about any wrongdoing,

523
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 4: but das's being told by the people who were supposed

524
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 4: to know what they're talking about. The John killed her

525
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 4: child and Kate.

526
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: What were the medical findings that the state witnesses had

527
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 2: and what they concluded.

528
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 3: The medical facts presented at trial in this case included

529
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: a series of fractures, mostly fresh but at least one

530
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 3: older fracture, retinal hemorrhaging, subdural hemorrhaging, signs of previous subdural hemorrhaging,

531
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 3: and brain swelling. As I said before, this is the

532
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 3: classic triad of shaken baby syndrome. Then the state put

533
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 3: on three medical witnesses. Doctor Paul McPherson testified that the

534
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: child would not have been able to suck any milk

535
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,479
Speaker 3: after sustaining these kinds of injuries. But we now know

536
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: that a child can experience seventy two hours of lucidity

537
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 3: after the injuries associated with shaken baby syndrome, and that's

538
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 3: what published case reports have shown us. It could be

539
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 3: even greater than that. So doctor macpherson conceded that the

540
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: injuries may have been sustained before John woke at eight

541
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 3: am to give Jada a bottle. The injuries may not

542
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 3: have been apparent, and the state had to seal up

543
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: that concession. With doctor Paul Besunder, who testified that the

544
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: causal injury could not have been sustained prior to eight am. Again,

545
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: we now know that a child can experience seventy two

546
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 3: hours of lucidity or more after the injuries associated with us.

547
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: Their last medical witnesses testimony was based on the testimony

548
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: of Detective Shady, who said that John told him in

549
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 3: an unrecorded interview that Jada began to suck the bottle

550
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: when he made it available by propping it on the

551
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: blanket nearby. This is refuted by two other recorded interviews

552
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 3: with John, as well as Deja's uncontested statement that Jada

553
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: had drunk half her bottle before Dasa left for school.

554
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: So you can see that the state was trying to

555
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: box the cause of Jada's death into the window that

556
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 3: Jada was under John's care alone. Summit County Coroner doctor

557
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: Lisa Kohler testified that, based on the secondhand information that

558
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: the child drank a significant portion of the milk after

559
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: eight am, the injuries were a result of being shaken,

560
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: because if she could still muster the energy to drink

561
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 3: milk after eight am, then the trauma must have been

562
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: committed by John to cause her to go unconscious. However,

563
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: and I know that I sound like a broken record here.

564
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: If there was causal trauma, it could have happened seventy

565
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 3: two hours into the past from when Jada became unresponsive.

566
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: So the state's case was completely undermined by what we

567
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: now know about the junk science that they were relying

568
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: on to convict John. The defense, however, called renowned forensic

569
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: pathologist doctor John Arden, who agreed that these could have

570
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: been injuries from abuse or not, and that they could

571
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: have occurred between seven and nine forty five am. However,

572
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: the evidence available did not permit a medical opinion with

573
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: any degree of specificity regarding the timing of any of

574
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: the fresh injuries, and that it is not medically reasonable

575
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: to make any such determinations. Subdural hemorrhaging does not typically

576
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: cause immediate incapacitation, So the way the state was trying

577
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: to fence in this crime to that eight to nine

578
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: forty am window just doesn't hold water. Doctor Arden testified

579
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: that Jada's medical records corroborate John's telling of events to

580
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: a reasonable degree of medical certainty.

581
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: And doctor Arden, isn't you know, I'll say for lack

582
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: of a better term, one of these defense witness gun

583
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: for hire that'll kind of say, you know what he wants.

584
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a believer of SBS for a

585
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: very long time, and he's mentioned very recent like you said,

586
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: in more recent studies that doctors need to be very

587
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: mindful of diagnosing this and they're really missing key facts.

588
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: And Kate, you mentioned it, and I'll ask the tough question.

589
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: I mean, you have fractures and limbs at least diagnosed

590
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: by state's witnesses and other things at trial. Were there

591
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: any explanations about where potentially these injuries may have come

592
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: because you know, I think you're on a jury, you're

593
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: seeing you know, multiple fractures and damage to the head

594
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: and then also to the extremities.

595
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: What is important to know about medical findings in these

596
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: kinds of cases is that medical findings might look like abuse,

597
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: but they might not necessarily be abused. And that can

598
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 3: happen for a few reasons. One is that injuries that

599
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: are accidental can be misinterpreted by medical providers and investigators

600
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: as a b and another is related to this assumption

601
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: that sometimes medical providers make that because they don't know

602
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: about the child's underlying medical conditions. If the child doesn't

603
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: have any, so maybe a child has a bone disorder,

604
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: they might fracture very easily. The classic example of this

605
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: is little babies in a neonatal intensive care unit who

606
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: are born, for example, very premature, and they can experience

607
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: fractures with totally normal handling, changing their diaper, things like that.

608
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: But that's not the only scenario in which children can

609
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: have what appear to be really serious injuries from little

610
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: or no trauma. And because we don't know enough about

611
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: Jada's medical condition, it's really hard for us to know

612
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 3: what kind of actions were required for her to sustain

613
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: the injuries that she had.

614
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: So after the presentation of dueling experts, the defense called

615
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: John to the stand, who said what you've already heard here,

616
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: that he did not hurt those children. Ever, that he

617
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: did not see Jada drink from the bottle after eight am,

618
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: but simply propped up a half full bottle on a blanket,

619
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: consistent with Daja's uncontested statement. And again, all this fucking

620
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: nonsense about the bottle is completely irrelevant because current science

621
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: supports that in the case of a traumatic event, it

622
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: could have happened anytime over the prior three days or

623
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: even longer. So, whether it was intentional or an accident,

624
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: Jada could have fallen off the couch the changing table.

625
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: Knowing what we know now, one cannot maintain that those

626
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: injuries could have only happened one way, the way that

627
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: the state maintains still maintains violent shaking while Jada was

628
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: alone in John's care. And that's if the cause even

629
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: was a traumatic event rather than a pre existing medical condition.

630
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: And like I've already mentioned here, there are and we've

631
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: counted them. There are eighty eight potential conditions that we

632
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: know of so far, and the research is ongoing. Now,

633
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 1: I want to quote the man that first hypothesized shaken

634
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: baby syndrome back in the nineteen seventies, doctor Norman Guthkelch.

635
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: We mentioned him earlier, and he wrote an article in

636
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: twenty twelve. I'll never forget this that it was titled

637
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: after forty years of Consideration, and that article was harshly

638
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: critical of his very own hypothesis and everything that has

639
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: happened since. And so in a twenty twelve interview, doctor

640
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: Guthkelch said, and I quote, I think we need to

641
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,439
Speaker 1: go back to the drawing board and make a more

642
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: thorough assessment of these fatal cases. And I'm going to

643
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: bet that we are going to find in every or

644
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: at least the large majority of cases, that the child

645
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: had another severe illness of some sort which was missed

646
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: until too late. End the quote. I mean that's the

647
00:34:54,120 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: man himself. But unfortunately that was twenty twelve and trial

648
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 1: was in twenty eleven. So after hearing the state's witnesses

649
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 1: up against John's witness and not knowing really a fraction

650
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: of what we know now, John was convicted almost predictably

651
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: and sentenced to fifteen years to life. John, can you

652
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: take us back to that terrible moment when the jury

653
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: came back in.

654
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 5: I stand up, I'm listening to the verdict on Ka one.

655
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 5: Kyle one was the highest degree of murder charts.

656
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 6: We finally defended.

657
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 7: Johnsones not guilty.

658
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 5: I actually turned back to my family and that the

659
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 5: whole sense and feeling of relief just come over me,

660
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 5: and I'm just like, finally, like everything just all the way,

661
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 5: everything just went away.

662
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 7: I'm still agreeving with the loss of my daughter, but

663
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 7: like the stress.

664
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 5: And the worry of the jail situation and all of this,

665
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 5: it just went away.

666
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 7: Because I heard the words not guilty, not knowing.

667
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 5: That they got the whole rest of the indictment to read.

668
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 5: So how too murder as a result of fluxus saw

669
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 5: that we find.

670
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 7: That defending don zounds guilty.

671
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 6: It's just like all the life in my body.

672
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 5: Just let Initially with his tears, it was just like

673
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 5: I can't even explain the feeling, like I look at my.

674
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 7: Mind, she crying, my sister, everybody crying, even.

675
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 6: My bang mind she crying. At that moment, I just

676
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 6: knew life.

677
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 7: You know, it's about to be the longest, hardest part

678
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 7: in my life.

679
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 8: And they said me to fifteen years of life.

680
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 6: I'm in here with grown men, I'm fresh eighteen. I'm

681
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 6: here with convictive killers. I'm in here with people serve

682
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 6: all types of different type of crimes. And I gotta survive.

683
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 6: I started trying to educate myself.

684
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 7: I got my ged I just.

685
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 6: Got to survive.

686
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 5: I'm here now, so I gotta try to do everything

687
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 5: I can to grow and prosper the best that I can.

688
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 6: I've seen a lot of hair, I learned a lot

689
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 6: of here. I grew up.

690
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 5: I found myself in here, I was a kid when

691
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 5: I came in. I'm almost twenty nine hours, learned a

692
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 5: lot of air, all another person perspective, my mentality, my

693
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 5: outlook on life, everything is different.

694
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 1: Don What is being done now for this young man?

695
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: Is there any other exculpatory evidence that we haven't already

696
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: outlined here, or any evidence that the state hid constitutional violations?

697
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 4: In terms of constitutional violations, a defendant has a right

698
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 4: not to be convicted on the basis of unreliable, quasi

699
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 4: scientific evidence. And that's what happened in John's case, and

700
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 4: that's what happens in these so called shaken Baby syndrome

701
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 4: prosecutions around the country, and particularly in Ohio, and even

702
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 4: more particularly in Summit County, which is where Akron is.

703
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 4: As Kate pointed out near the beginning today, Ohio is

704
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 4: a particular hotspot for these sorts of cases, and not

705
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: just Ohio, but Summit County and Akron specifically. So either

706
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 4: the people of Akron really like to use their children,

707
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 4: or there's something going on at Acron Children's Hospital and

708
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 4: in the Summit County Prosecutor's office with respect to their

709
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: proclivity for jumping to the conclusion of child abuse. And

710
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 4: bringing these types of cases. We are preparing to bring

711
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: post conviction litigation on John's path. We will argue that

712
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 4: the science in this field has changed considerably over the

713
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 4: last ten or eleven years, that if a jury could

714
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 4: have heard in twenty ten what it could hear today,

715
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: that a conviction simply wouldn't have happened.

716
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: So really, what you have here, and taking a step back,

717
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: is you have a horrible tragedy. You have a conviction

718
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 2: based upon science that, if it was tried today, would

719
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: not be a viable theory, and you have a man

720
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: still behind bars based upon that unreliable theory of shaking

721
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: Babysitcrome correct.

722
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely so for our listeners, I'm sure you're feeling the

723
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: same outrage that I'm feeling now. And what can people do?

724
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 4: I certainly think that people can start writing letters to

725
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 4: the parole board. John won't be eligible for parole until

726
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, and hopefully by that time will have

727
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 4: successfully completed litigation on his behalf in parole won't matter,

728
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 4: But I certainly think that that people can start writing

729
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 4: to the parole board about these issues. Because John isn't

730
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 4: the only person in Ohio who has to come before

731
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 4: a parole board ultimately and convince the parole board that

732
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 4: shaking baby syndrome just shouldn't serve as the underpinning for

733
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,959
Speaker 4: a conviction that keeps someone in prison for the rest

734
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 4: of their lives. So that's something that people can do.

735
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 4: The other thing I would say that people should do,

736
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 4: even apart from John's case, is be informed. If you

737
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 4: get a jury duty summons, show up and then don't

738
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 4: just believe what the government scientists tell you, think about it,

739
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 4: decide whether or not what they're saying is credible and

740
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 4: makes sense, and listen with open ears the experts that

741
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 4: Defense Council puts on the stand as well.

742
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: And remember it's innocent until proven guilty, not the other

743
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: way around. So with that, John, we're thinking of you

744
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: all the time, and we're going to do everything we can.

745
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: You have an extraordinary team, not just on this call,

746
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: but at the Ohio Innocence Project and throughout the innocence community.

747
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: I encourage people to donate to the Ohio Innocence Project

748
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: so that we can help John and so many others

749
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: who have been wrongfully convicted in the state of Ohio.

750
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: So with that, now, of course it's the part of

751
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: the show called closing arguments. First of all, I think

752
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: our distinguished guests even we'll call it a panel today.

753
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: First time I've ever used that word of closing arguments.

754
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: So from Greg and I thanks again for being here. Greg,

755
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: thank you for co hosting with me as well.

756
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for allowing me to co host here. Jason.

757
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: Okay, and now we'll go to Donald and save Kate

758
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: for last just because of alphabetical order, and then over

759
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: to you John of course for the closing arguments.

760
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 4: Thank you Jason and Greg for having us on today

761
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 4: and for talking about this really, really important issue and

762
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 4: this important part of the criminal justice system that hasn't

763
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 4: gotten enough attention recently. When I work with my clients

764
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: who have been convicted of child abuse through this shaken

765
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 4: Baby syndrome theory, and as I talk to their families,

766
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 4: I alternate between sadness and anger. I'm angry, as is

767
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 4: everybody in the podcast today, that people go to prison

768
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 4: over cases that looked like this, and I'm sad because

769
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 4: of what it does to people and their families. John

770
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 4: went to prison when he was teenager, and if the

771
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 4: state of Ohiouse has its way he'll never get out

772
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 4: again for something that wasn't a crime. It was a

773
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 4: crime that never happened. These cases are enormously difficult to undo.

774
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: I compare these cases sometimes to like trying to poke

775
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 4: a hole through jello. It's easier to make a hole

776
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 4: through a very solid object than it is through something

777
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 4: that's weak and weekly it just closes up around the

778
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 4: hole that you've just made, and trying to undo these

779
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 4: shaken baby convictions can be exactly like that. We need

780
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 4: to do better in our criminal justice system. We need

781
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 4: to pay attention to the science. We need to make

782
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 4: it a little bit easier to discover the evidence to

783
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 4: undo these convictions after they happen. In Ohio, for instance,

784
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 4: we really need the ability to do discovery before we

785
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 4: file an action so we can get things like Jada's

786
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 4: medical records from birth up until five months, so that

787
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 4: we can put together the full medical history that we

788
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 4: need to do the work in this kind of case.

789
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: Okay, The prosecution of these types of cases are based

790
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: on a laudable goal, and that's to protect children and

791
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,959
Speaker 3: protect the most vulnerable. Nobody wants child abuse, Nobody wants

792
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 3: to see abuse at all. Unfortunately, what's happened is that

793
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 3: doctors and other experts believe that in these cases they

794
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: can do what's called err on the side of the child.

795
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 3: They can accuse someone of abuse when they're not sure

796
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: or when all of the science doesn't unerringly point to

797
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: the defendant, and you can't err on the side of

798
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 3: the child in these kinds of cases. It's impossible. Any

799
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: error is going to harm both the child who may

800
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 3: be a victim and everyone else involved in the case.

801
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 3: And that's because when these cases are investigated improperly or

802
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 3: charges are broad that are wrongful, that means that a

803
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: child can be separated from a loving family, or that

804
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 3: a grieving parent who's lost a child can be punished

805
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 3: for something that they didn't do. And it also might

806
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: mean that a child who is ill or who has

807
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 3: had an accident might not get the right medical care

808
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 3: for their illness. There's no way to err on the

809
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: side of the child in these cases, and that's why

810
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 3: we have to be so careful. We cannot have convictions

811
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: that are premised on science that is shaky or science

812
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 3: that is ambiguous. Why the Center for Integrity in Forensic

813
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,959
Speaker 3: Sciences exists because everybody's right to justice and a fair

814
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: result depends on a fair process and a fair trial,

815
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 3: and you can't have that when there is testimony or

816
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 3: opinion introduced at the trial that is overstated or just

817
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 3: playing wrong.

818
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: And now of course over to you, John, I.

819
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 7: Just want to sign light on my situation.

820
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 5: I want people to realize what I'm going through. And

821
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 5: I'm not even the only person going through this is

822
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 5: possibly being accused of causing that there are children child

823
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 5: science like something that's not even le g It's a

824
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 5: lot of whole period and the whole theory and the

825
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 5: whole concept of.

826
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 7: The saying big potentional. So I just want to shed

827
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 7: light on that situation.

828
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 6: First and foremost, I know that it's going to get better.

829
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 5: I know that.

830
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 7: I know that. I know that because I know I

831
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 7: deserve it. I know that the truth gonna come out.

832
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 5: I love my.

833
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 7: Daughter not conditionally. I love all my children. I have

834
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 7: three children, including my daughter who goshed the way first

835
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 7: of the people. I love them unconditionally, do anything.

836
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,959
Speaker 6: For them, will give my life for them. I gotta

837
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 6: continue to fight for my life.

838
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 7: I gotta continue to fight for my freedom, and I

839
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 7: got to continue to fight for justice.

840
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 6: For my daughter, because at the end of the day,

841
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 6: that's what it's truly about. When we find out the

842
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 6: real cause of what happened with her.

843
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 5: That's gonna automatically vindicate me, that's automatically gonna rate me,

844
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 5: But it's gonna also bring closer to my family, my

845
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 5: child's mother's family, everybody.

846
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 6: You know what I'm saying, because it's gonna give.

847
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 7: Us the truth.

848
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 5: It's gonna let us know, it's gonna aswer the questions

849
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 5: that we all got. But at the end of the day,

850
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 5: it's about my daughter. It's about Jaden's like, it's all

851
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 5: about Jaded for her. Yeah, I want my freedom, Yeah

852
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 5: I desire my freedom, but knowing what happened with her,

853
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 5: getting the closure that our families need, and then finally

854
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 5: being able to get to a place where we can

855
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 5: move forward.

856
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 7: Because I never really ever even been able to heal

857
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 7: from me.

858
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 5: I never found clothes because not only did I suffer

859
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 5: to one of the deepest losses that anybody on this earth.

860
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,479
Speaker 6: Can suffer is losing a child.

861
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 7: Not only did our experience thing and have to deal

862
00:45:54,120 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 7: with that, I gotta deal with sitting here every single day.

863
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

864
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis,

865
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

866
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

867
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

868
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at

869
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

870
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

871
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flahm. Wrongful Conviction is

872
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with

873
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one