WEBVTT - #249 Jason Flom with Raphael Rowe 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:05.760 In December of nineteen eighty eight, four incidents in and 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.200 outside of South London, two carthfs and two home invasions 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.880 left eight victims in their wake, one man severely injured, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.760 another brudely murdered, and a number of cars and other 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:20.200 goods stolen. The victims and witnesses all described three assailants, 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.520 two white men and one black man. The brutality of 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.160 the crimes garnered national attention, as well as mounting pressure 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.200 to bring those responsible to justice. It is believed that 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.160 the first carthf was traced to a hostel where eighteen 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.080 year old Raphael Rowe lived with five other men. On 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:40.080 December nineteenth, he and his hostel mats, along with several others, 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:44.239 were arrested. Despite the prior identification of the perpetrators as 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.760 two white men and one black man and solid alibi witnesses, 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.440 police focused their investigation on Raphael and two other black men, 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:55.320 Michael Davis and Randolph Johnson. It became clear a trial 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.840 that the prosecution was relying on information from an incentivized 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.480 informant who was involved and the crimes. Discrepancies between the 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.959 victims and witnesses initial reports and their testimonies a trial 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:10.200 raised suspicion. Despite all of that, plus Raphael and Michael's 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.200 alibi witnesses and the description of two white and one 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.039 black assailant, the jury convicted all three black men, and 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.440 Raphael was sentenced to life plus fifty years. During his incarceration, 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:24.520 Raphael was able to develop evidence with the help of journalists, 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:26.880 to shed light on the details of his wrongful conviction, 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:31.080 including official misconduct and the fabrication of a false narrative. 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.640 Raphael joins us today to share his harrowing story at 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:39.040 his continued fite to clear his name. This is Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:57.440 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're taking you overseas 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:02.280 to Southeast England for a wrongful conviction case. That is, 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.560 it's a powerful story, not least of which because the 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.200 man who lived it has a way of telling it. 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.160 That is, it rocks my world. So I think this 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.320 is going to be a wild episode and I'm really 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:21.200 honored to have with us today the man himself, Raphael 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.800 Row Raphael, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:26.760 Thank you for inviting me onto your podcast. 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.920 Yeah yeah, yeah, I never had the privilege of interviewing 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.960 a wrongfully convicted person who is themself a podcaster journalist. 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.160 But let's go back all the way to even before 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.000 this happened, right, These were crimes that took place in 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.840 December nineteen eighty eight, a series of robberies, violent robberies 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.000 in Southeast England. It's like something out of Clockwork, orange 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.240 or worse. And they're much more than robberies. There was 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.720 a murder. There were other types of home invasions. I mean, 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.120 I say robberies. It sounds too benign to describe what 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.320 was really going on here, But what was your life 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.720 like for all this insanity happened? So? 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.880 I grew up in Southeast London in a very deprived neighborhood. 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.280 We had cancel houses, which are sort of social housing. 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.840 I come from a mixed race background. My father came 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.280 to the United Kingdom on the wind Rush as a 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.480 Jamaica and my mother is a born and bred Londoner 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.320 from West London. And when they got together, they had 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.040 my three sisters, and then along came me and my 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.720 dad was a laborer. My mom was a housewife bringing 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:33.320 up four kids, and so financially we struggled as a 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.600 young family, but we had quite a stable upbringing of course, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.360 there were problems in our household. You know, my dad 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.880 liked to drink. My mum and dad would argue, but 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.640 on the street everybody was struggling and trying to make ends. 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:45.840 Me. 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.360 Everybody came from a working class background and we all 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.640 grew up in small flats, in blocks of flats. 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:53.440 You know. 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.000 I come from a neighborhood where riots had kicked off 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.040 in the United Kingdom because of the oppression of people 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:03.080 like myself, in particular black people in and around London, 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.720 especially migrants. To be honest, there was no one in 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.480 my life in my early teens that inspired me to 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.920 become anything. You know, everybody around me was just looking 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.800 to earn money, and for me, as a young teenager, 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.560 that was about being involved in petty crime. And so 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.560 by the age of eighteen, I'd got in trouble with 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.520 the law and I was put on what we call 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.320 probation and at that point I went to live in 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:29.800 a hostel with one of my best friends. And in 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.640 this hostel in southeast London, there were lots of other 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.200 sort of wayward kids, if you like, people who have 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.040 also been sent there by the authorities for getting in 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.120 trouble with the law, and I was living with my 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.200 best friend Michael party In doing the things that you 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:46.880 do as a teenager without a care in the world. 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.039 And so that brings us to this insane series of 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:54.520 events of four separate violent, hyperviolent robberies that took place 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.440 between December thirteenth and December sixteenth and nineteen eighty eight. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.039 The first crime took place in Sidenheim on December thirteenth, 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.960 where two men stole a car, a Triumph, spitfire in 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:05.479 the middle of the night and took it back to 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.320 twenty five Lori Park Road, which was the hostel that 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.080 you were living in that you just described now. The 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.520 next crime took place a few days later on December 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.680 sixteenth in Fickleshaw, where three masked men interrupted Peter Herberg 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.000 and a younger man amed Alan Eely as they were 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.440 having sex at a car. The masked men had a 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:24.920 knife and a gun. Eely was pulled from the car 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.160 and robbed of ten pounds, and it was clear that 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.159 the three masked men intended to steal a car. When 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.760 Herberg objected, he was attacked eally passed out, and when 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.320 he awoke he found that Herberg was dead after having 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:40.799 been savagely beaten. He had fractured ribs of Bruce Hart 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:43.919 and he had actually died from a heart attack, obviously 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.440 as a result of the beating. This car, by the 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.719 way an Austin Princess was gone, but the stolen car 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.360 from the thirteenth, the Triumph Spitfire, was discovered abandoned close 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.560 to the scene. The Austin Princess was then driven to Oxted, 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.200 which is about ten miles away, where the three men 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:04.000 invaded and robbed a home. There was a violent struggle 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.279 and one of the homes occupants was cut badly, with 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.640 his artery severed. The house was ransacked and the robbers 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.520 left with the man's Toyota now here too. The car 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.520 from the previous robbery that night and Austin Princess was 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.240 found abandoned near the home and in the final ins 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.960 and an hour later, about twenty miles from Oxted, in 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.080 a place called Fetcham, a couple woke up in their 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.159 bed to find three masked men in their room. The 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.080 robbers asked them for money, jewelry and car keys, and 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.640 the couple was tied and gagged while the robbers ransacked 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.039 the house. The men eventually left driving off in a 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.839 Renault and a baux Hall Cavalier. As before, the stolen 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.279 Toyota from the previous robbery was found nearby, and the 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.320 Renault and Bauxhall were later found abandoned and burned out 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.400 in the field. So this is four separate incidents in 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.400 which eight people were robbed, one was severely injured, and 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.440 another one killed in a truly good tesque manner. 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.479 These robberies hit the front pages of all the national 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:03.920 newspaper because the headlines were things like two white men, 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.800 one black man commit horrors m twenty five gang, which 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:12.280 is what these three men were up. Catch these monsters, 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.880 bring back hanging twenty five thousand poundly ward for the 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:17.800 arrest of these monsters, etc. 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.840 Twenty five thousand pounds back then was a huge amount 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.680 of money, right we're talking about nineteen eighty eight. I 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.720 don't know what that would be in current dollars or 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.160 with the exchange rate, but I would say it's well 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.560 over one hundred thousand dollars in today's money. What I 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.840 will say is that in case after case, we see 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.120 that these type of rewards, which sound like a good 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.800 idea on paper, lead to people who want the money, 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.840 saying things that they might otherwise know not to be true, 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.160 or guessing. So how did they come to target you 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.120 and the others. 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:55.240 Well, the facts don't materialize as to why we were 0:07:55.280 --> 0:08:01.000 initially targeted until many years after I'd spent in prison. 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.280 The reason the police targeted our address was because they 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.400 were given a tip off. I believe that there was 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.680 different evidence that led them to our address, ie the 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.960 cars that had been discovered from the final robbery that 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.600 were burnt out. Witnesses saw people standing over those cars 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.280 at the time and described those individuals to the police, 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.920 and I think the police then made some in roads 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.160 on who those people were. Two of those people were 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.640 living in the same address as made two white guys. 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:30.600 All of the victims. 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:35.200 Described the perpetrators as two white men and one black man. 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.840 One of the most significant factors in this case. All 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.319 of the victims of these crimes, as terrified as they were, 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.720 were able to give a consistent account of what the 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.559 perpetrators looked like, despite the fact that these robbers were 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:51.000 wearing balaclavas. 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.080 In case anyone our audists is unfamiliar with the term 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.319 ballack lava, it's a sche mask anyway, continue. 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.640 When the victims described the perpetrators having described one of 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.240 the white men with blue eyes and fair hair, another 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.800 white man whose skin they saw through the eye hole 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.679 and the mouth of one of the balaclavas was white. 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.920 And the black man they said, had brown skin with 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:17.240 quite a chubby face. 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.160 So that was the level of detail. 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.360 When I was arrested and my co defendants were arrested, 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.080 the three men that ended up being in charge were 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.880 all black. I had dreadlocks at the time, my co 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:31.560 defendant had dreadlocks at the time, and the other co 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:36.160 defendant was of dark black African appearance. So all three 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.239 black men who were eventually charged didn't fit the descriptions 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.080 that were not only described by the victims, but it 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.000 was also repeated in these headlines that the police were 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.720 looking for two white men and one black man, and 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.200 that two white men were seen burning the cars, and 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.079 et cetera, et cetera. So the details were quite obvious. 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.080 How could the police go on to charge three black men? 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.280 Right? These were not identifications that were given for across 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.600 the street or down the road, where you might say, well, 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.120 maybe they were mistaken about the race. Maybe it was 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.120 dark the street like didn't work something like that. No, 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:12.080 these were up close and personal crimes, and there's no 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.720 way that everybody got the race of the perpetrators wrong. 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:20.400 You're absolutely right, Jason. These weren't fleeting glances across the 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.920 road in the dead of night. There was a level 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.400 of detail that you could not excuse. 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:27.679 And this was certainly a case as well where you 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:29.280 would hope that the authorities would be on their a 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.720 game because everybody needed these guys off the streets. I mean, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.640 whoever did this are literally the people for whom prisons 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:38.160 are built. 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:39.880 I totally agree with you, Jason. 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.400 I think the problem is is when these sensational headlines 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:48.040 put politicians and lawmakers the police under the extreme pressure, 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.240 they then start to target people that are innocent. They 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.119 then home in on people who are the most vulnerable, 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.800 i e. Those types of individuals like myself, who the 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.320 public wouldn't care about. 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.319 This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.120 AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.960 a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.680 in the communities where we work and live. In light 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.520 of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:30.599 in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.640 the AIG pro Bono program provides free legal services and 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:39.000 other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:50.360 Twelve people were arrested on the nineteenth of December nineteen 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.880 ninety eight under suspicion of being involved in these crimes. 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.680 I was one of my co defendant, Michael Davis, who 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.520 was also my best friend and lived with me in 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.240 the hostel, as was a number of other individuals who 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.320 lived in a hostel. Three in particular, three young white 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.840 guys were also arrested, as was a young Asian guy, 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.760 but it was only me, my co defendant, and the 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.960 three white guys who remained in the police station being 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.640 interviewed and interrogated by the police between the nineteenth of 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.680 December and the twenty second of December nineteen eighty eight, 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.160 when I was charged and then sent to a remand 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:32.559 prison to await trial. My friend Michael was reminded in custody. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.040 The two white guys and the Asian guy were not 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.360 charged with the murder and the series of robberies, and 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.960 it was about three weeks later that Randolph Egbert Johnson 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.880 who was involved in a high speed car chase with 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.479 the police, was arrested and he became the third suspect 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.120 in the so called M twenty five case. Randolph I 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.840 didn't know him. I had no association with him. I 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.199 think i'd met him once before, but we had no 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:02.800 connection at all. 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.840 And so tell me about the police interrogation. 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.880 There were two particular police officers who were responsible for 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.960 my risks. And these two cops were typical of your 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.800 good cop, bad cop type guys. One of them hated 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.160 me from the moment he set eyes on me. The 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.160 other one was slightly more reserved, always talked for and 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.080 reflective of my answers, and he always gave me some 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.600 confidence that he was believing me because I was not 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.320 one of those suspects who sat in the police cell 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.160 saying no comment, no comment, No. I took every opportunity 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.439 to tell them that I was not involved, that they 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.880 were pointing the finger at the wrong guy. I was 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.079 providing them with as much detail as I possibly could 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.160 about where I was, who I was with, what I 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.960 was doing, and it fell on deaf ears. And the 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.520 reason for that is because the other suspects that the 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:57.240 police were interrogating, were telling lies, were making stories up, 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.600 and I'd go as far as to say they were 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.240 buying with other police officers at the time to fabricate 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.520 evidence that would then be used against me. You know, 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.319 even the victims themselves, who I have all the sympathy 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.720 for in the world as to what they experienced, even 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.880 they started to change their statements. So every time I 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.240 told the police where I was and what I was 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.400 doing and who I was with, they quickly got people 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.480 to change their statements or their time so that it 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:30.840 would undermine the evidence that proved unequivocally that I was innocent. 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:32.920 And do you know why that is, Jason. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.160 During the interrogation, the police have it in their head 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.000 that they've got the right people, the evidence that's coming 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.680 into the interview room, all these fabricated bits of evidence 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.160 which were convincing the police that they were onto the 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.120 right guys, regardless of the victims descriptions. The problem was 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.520 is that by the time they were starting to discover 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.280 the real evidence, i e. The evidence that proved I 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.840 had an alibi, the evidence that proved I could not 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:57.880 have been involved in. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.960 These crimes, it was too late. 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.240 So that's why they then went back to witnesses and 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.280 victims and started to get them to change their statement. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.800 And that's easy for the police to do when you 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.680 believe in the police, and these victims are law abiding 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.480 citizens who go by whatever the police tell them they 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:17.280 need to go by. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.040 You know, I have to point out that in America 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.400 there's only one state, which is Minnesota, where they record 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.560 I was interrogations, And I feel that's a reform that 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:31.120 needs to be instituted nationwide and worldwide, because most people 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.680 understand the reason why you need to record interrogations of 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:39.200 suspects to make sure they're not being beaten, coerced fed information, 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.720 et cetera, et cetera. But in some cases, including this one, 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.000 that would have been extremely valuable to have access to 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:51.720 the videotapes of these incredibly suggestive witness identification procedures. I mean, 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:55.040 they were not even being suggested. They're being told, you're wrong, 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.240 don't believe your eyes, believe us. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:02.200 And I should say now, there was absolutely no forensic 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.800 evidence or any other kind of scientific evidence in this 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.520 case that pointed to me and my co defendants. In fact, 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:14.720 the opposite was true. There was some forensic evidence, i e. Fingerprints, 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.840 found on the car at the scene of the murder 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.640 that linked the case to a white guy with blue 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.320 eyes and fair hair. II fitted the description as described 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.560 by some of the victims. And when the police discovered that, 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.720 and I'm already locked up in prison charged with these crimes, 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.000 they went to this witness and they got this witness 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.360 to say that they stole the car that was used 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.240 in the robbery for me and my co defendants rather 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.680 than interrogate that individual about their involvement. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:50.680 It's a tangled freaking webman, this is a lot and Raphael, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.240 let's get to your alibi, because you had multiple people 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.720 testifying to where you were during the crimes, right, please 0:16:58.840 --> 0:16:59.600 take us through this. 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.800 Initially, in the witness that survived statement, the murder was 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.919 timed to take in place at eleven thirty pm on 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:13.040 the night of the fifteenth December nineteen eighty eight. At 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.439 that time, me and my co defendant were with four 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.840 girls who we were knocking about with. I was sleeping 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.560 with one of those girls. And at about ten thirty 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.480 on the night of the murder and these series of robberies, 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.560 one of the girls invited me and my friend and 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.040 her mates back to her parents' house. So at about ten 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.040 thirty of the girls and my co defendant went back 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.119 to this other girl's house. I met her mum for 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.920 the first time, I met her sister, and I met 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.440 her sister's boyfriend, who was a solicitor, and we were 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.600 there until about half past midnight. All these witnesses verify this, 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.800 so that's an hour after the murder had been committed. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.040 And at about half past twelve, the solicitor wanted to 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.560 get rid of this rowdy couple of guys who were 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.760 smoking weed and bouncing around with their dreadlocks. The solicitor 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.600 offered to give me and my friend a lift back 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:08.520 to our flat, and we agreed, and the solicitor drove me, 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.800 my co defend and the girl I was sleeping with 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.520 back to my flat and we arrived back at about 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.480 just twenty to one in the morning. I went back 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.040 to my room with this girl. We smoked a joint 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.359 and then we made love. So I was in bed 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.679 with her until about one point thirty in the morning, 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.440 so this is two hours after the murder had been committed. 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.200 This was just as the second robbery was taken place, 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:37.160 and I'm forty miles away from where these incidents were 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:41.040 already taking place, and this was my alibi. And all 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.840 of these witnesses I just mentioned came into the court 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.880 at the time of my trial and told the jury 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.040 that I was with them at this time. And this 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.040 is why the police got that first victim to change 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.480 their statement. They said that the crime didn't happen at 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.720 eleven thirty, It happened at twelve thirty. But even then 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.000 I still had an alibi that put me miles away 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.480 from where this crime was committed. But crucially, the girlfriend 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.040 that I was in bed with was then undermined by 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:19.440 the police because she gave the police items of jury 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.240 that had come from one of the robberies, saying that 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.000 she got that jury from me. That was an outright lie, 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.359 and I can tell you why. When I was in 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.679 prison a few months later, this girl wrote me a letter, 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:38.600 unbeknown that it would be crucial evidence, admitting that she'd 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.440 lied and that she'd been put up by the police 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.919 to telling the police that I'd given her items a 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:49.399 jury in order to save herself from being accused of 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.360 perverting the course of justice or something like that. So 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.679 a I had a cast iron alibi. B The police's 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:02.040 attempt to undermine my alibi witnesses ability by fabricating evidence 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:06.120 which she admitted was untrue. That's what we were up 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.879 against at the time of my trial. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.399 Yeah, they're changing the times, they're changing the races of 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:17.879 the perpetrators. They're coercing well threatening eyewitnesses and alibi witnesses. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.360 It's a whirlwind. So the trial itself, Raphael, it must 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.879 have been a circus atmosphere. If I'm going to guess, 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.320 please tell us about that experience. Here you are now, 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.720 all of a sudden, I'm going to say, one of 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.600 the most hated men in the country along with your 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:34.240 co defense. 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.240 The court setting was that the Old Bailey, which is 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.200 the number one call in the United Kingdom. And yes, 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.879 it was a circus. Me and my two co defendants, 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.280 all three of us stood in the dock, accused of 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.560 the murder and the three robberies and the attempted murder, 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:53.199 and witness after witness, including the victims, who stood up 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.359 in the dock and gave evidence against us. Some told 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.440 the truth, many told lies. One of the most awkward 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.200 moments Jason in the trial was when the victims stood 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:07.080 in the dock and they were asked to describe the perpetrators, 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.199 and that's when the umzhnas started to come in. You know, 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.560 the victims were Yeah, I did say that it was 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.560 white skinned, and yes I did say they had blue eyes. 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:17.960 But maybe I was wrong. Why was you wrong? 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.439 But the police seemed to believe that those men in 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.280 the dock were guilty. That was one of the saddest 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.359 things for me that the victims could look at the 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:27.919 three guys that were in the dock, know that we 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:31.360 didn't commit the crime and couldn't do anything about it. 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.880 And yet somehow that jury they went out and they 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.160 came back and they found us guilty. 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:40.800 So yeah, in spite of the fact that the victims 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:45.520 are acknowledging their own original identifications of these white, blonde, 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.399 blue eyed individuals, and in spite of the fact of 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.120 your many alibi witnesses, in spite of all of that, 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.760 the jury goes out and finds you guilty. So can 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:57.600 you take us back to that moment. 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.000 When the jury came in and they read the guilty 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.239 verdict against me for murder, for attempted murder, and for 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.679 three serious robberies. The judge had no alternative but to 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:10.879 send me to prison for the rest of my life 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.640 plus fifty odd years, which is the accumulation of all 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:19.000 the sentences added up for the robberies. It's really difficult 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.199 to say at that point that I was crushed like 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.280 a penut under my foot, because I'd already been crushed 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.840 when I was first charged with these offenses and condemned 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.680