1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: In December of nineteen eighty eight, four incidents in and 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: outside of South London, two carthfs and two home invasions 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: left eight victims in their wake, one man severely injured, 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: another brudely murdered, and a number of cars and other 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: goods stolen. The victims and witnesses all described three assailants, 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: two white men and one black man. The brutality of 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: the crimes garnered national attention, as well as mounting pressure 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: to bring those responsible to justice. It is believed that 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: the first carthf was traced to a hostel where eighteen 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: year old Raphael Rowe lived with five other men. On 11 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: December nineteenth, he and his hostel mats, along with several others, 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: were arrested. Despite the prior identification of the perpetrators as 13 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: two white men and one black man and solid alibi witnesses, 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: police focused their investigation on Raphael and two other black men, 15 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: Michael Davis and Randolph Johnson. It became clear a trial 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: that the prosecution was relying on information from an incentivized 17 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: informant who was involved and the crimes. Discrepancies between the 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: victims and witnesses initial reports and their testimonies a trial 19 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: raised suspicion. Despite all of that, plus Raphael and Michael's 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: alibi witnesses and the description of two white and one 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: black assailant, the jury convicted all three black men, and 22 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Raphael was sentenced to life plus fifty years. During his incarceration, 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: Raphael was able to develop evidence with the help of journalists, 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: to shed light on the details of his wrongful conviction, 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: including official misconduct and the fabrication of a false narrative. 26 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: Raphael joins us today to share his harrowing story at 27 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: his continued fite to clear his name. This is Wrongful Conviction. 28 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're taking you overseas 29 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: to Southeast England for a wrongful conviction case. That is, 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: it's a powerful story, not least of which because the 31 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: man who lived it has a way of telling it. 32 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: That is, it rocks my world. So I think this 33 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: is going to be a wild episode and I'm really 34 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: honored to have with us today the man himself, Raphael 35 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: Row Raphael, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 36 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me onto your podcast. 37 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I never had the privilege of interviewing 38 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: a wrongfully convicted person who is themself a podcaster journalist. 39 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: But let's go back all the way to even before 40 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: this happened, right, These were crimes that took place in 41 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: December nineteen eighty eight, a series of robberies, violent robberies 42 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: in Southeast England. It's like something out of Clockwork, orange 43 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: or worse. And they're much more than robberies. There was 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: a murder. There were other types of home invasions. I mean, 45 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: I say robberies. It sounds too benign to describe what 46 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: was really going on here, But what was your life 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: like for all this insanity happened? So? 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: I grew up in Southeast London in a very deprived neighborhood. 49 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: We had cancel houses, which are sort of social housing. 50 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: I come from a mixed race background. My father came 51 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: to the United Kingdom on the wind Rush as a 52 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: Jamaica and my mother is a born and bred Londoner 53 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: from West London. And when they got together, they had 54 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: my three sisters, and then along came me and my 55 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: dad was a laborer. My mom was a housewife bringing 56 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: up four kids, and so financially we struggled as a 57 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: young family, but we had quite a stable upbringing of course, 58 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: there were problems in our household. You know, my dad 59 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: liked to drink. My mum and dad would argue, but 60 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: on the street everybody was struggling and trying to make ends. 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: Me. 62 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: Everybody came from a working class background and we all 63 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: grew up in small flats, in blocks of flats. 64 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: You know. 65 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: I come from a neighborhood where riots had kicked off 66 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: in the United Kingdom because of the oppression of people 67 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: like myself, in particular black people in and around London, 68 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: especially migrants. To be honest, there was no one in 69 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: my life in my early teens that inspired me to 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: become anything. You know, everybody around me was just looking 71 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: to earn money, and for me, as a young teenager, 72 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: that was about being involved in petty crime. And so 73 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: by the age of eighteen, I'd got in trouble with 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: the law and I was put on what we call 75 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: probation and at that point I went to live in 76 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: a hostel with one of my best friends. And in 77 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: this hostel in southeast London, there were lots of other 78 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: sort of wayward kids, if you like, people who have 79 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 2: also been sent there by the authorities for getting in 80 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: trouble with the law, and I was living with my 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: best friend Michael party In doing the things that you 82 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: do as a teenager without a care in the world. 83 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: And so that brings us to this insane series of 84 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: events of four separate violent, hyperviolent robberies that took place 85 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: between December thirteenth and December sixteenth and nineteen eighty eight. 86 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: The first crime took place in Sidenheim on December thirteenth, 87 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: where two men stole a car, a Triumph, spitfire in 88 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: the middle of the night and took it back to 89 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: twenty five Lori Park Road, which was the hostel that 90 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: you were living in that you just described now. The 91 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: next crime took place a few days later on December 92 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: sixteenth in Fickleshaw, where three masked men interrupted Peter Herberg 93 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: and a younger man amed Alan Eely as they were 94 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: having sex at a car. The masked men had a 95 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: knife and a gun. Eely was pulled from the car 96 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: and robbed of ten pounds, and it was clear that 97 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: the three masked men intended to steal a car. When 98 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: Herberg objected, he was attacked eally passed out, and when 99 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: he awoke he found that Herberg was dead after having 100 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 1: been savagely beaten. He had fractured ribs of Bruce Hart 101 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: and he had actually died from a heart attack, obviously 102 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: as a result of the beating. This car, by the 103 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: way an Austin Princess was gone, but the stolen car 104 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: from the thirteenth, the Triumph Spitfire, was discovered abandoned close 105 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: to the scene. The Austin Princess was then driven to Oxted, 106 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: which is about ten miles away, where the three men 107 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: invaded and robbed a home. There was a violent struggle 108 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: and one of the homes occupants was cut badly, with 109 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: his artery severed. The house was ransacked and the robbers 110 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: left with the man's Toyota now here too. The car 111 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: from the previous robbery that night and Austin Princess was 112 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: found abandoned near the home and in the final ins 113 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: and an hour later, about twenty miles from Oxted, in 114 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: a place called Fetcham, a couple woke up in their 115 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: bed to find three masked men in their room. The 116 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: robbers asked them for money, jewelry and car keys, and 117 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: the couple was tied and gagged while the robbers ransacked 118 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: the house. The men eventually left driving off in a 119 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: Renault and a baux Hall Cavalier. As before, the stolen 120 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: Toyota from the previous robbery was found nearby, and the 121 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: Renault and Bauxhall were later found abandoned and burned out 122 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: in the field. So this is four separate incidents in 123 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: which eight people were robbed, one was severely injured, and 124 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: another one killed in a truly good tesque manner. 125 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 2: These robberies hit the front pages of all the national 126 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: newspaper because the headlines were things like two white men, 127 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: one black man commit horrors m twenty five gang, which 128 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: is what these three men were up. Catch these monsters, 129 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: bring back hanging twenty five thousand poundly ward for the 130 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: arrest of these monsters, etc. 131 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: Twenty five thousand pounds back then was a huge amount 132 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: of money, right we're talking about nineteen eighty eight. I 133 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: don't know what that would be in current dollars or 134 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: with the exchange rate, but I would say it's well 135 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: over one hundred thousand dollars in today's money. What I 136 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: will say is that in case after case, we see 137 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: that these type of rewards, which sound like a good 138 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: idea on paper, lead to people who want the money, 139 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: saying things that they might otherwise know not to be true, 140 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: or guessing. So how did they come to target you 141 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: and the others. 142 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: Well, the facts don't materialize as to why we were 143 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: initially targeted until many years after I'd spent in prison. 144 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: The reason the police targeted our address was because they 145 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: were given a tip off. I believe that there was 146 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: different evidence that led them to our address, ie the 147 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: cars that had been discovered from the final robbery that 148 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: were burnt out. Witnesses saw people standing over those cars 149 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: at the time and described those individuals to the police, 150 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: and I think the police then made some in roads 151 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: on who those people were. Two of those people were 152 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: living in the same address as made two white guys. 153 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 3: All of the victims. 154 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: Described the perpetrators as two white men and one black man. 155 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: One of the most significant factors in this case. All 156 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 2: of the victims of these crimes, as terrified as they were, 157 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: were able to give a consistent account of what the 158 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 2: perpetrators looked like, despite the fact that these robbers were 159 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: wearing balaclavas. 160 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: In case anyone our audists is unfamiliar with the term 161 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: ballack lava, it's a sche mask anyway, continue. 162 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: When the victims described the perpetrators having described one of 163 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: the white men with blue eyes and fair hair, another 164 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: white man whose skin they saw through the eye hole 165 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 2: and the mouth of one of the balaclavas was white. 166 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: And the black man they said, had brown skin with 167 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: quite a chubby face. 168 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: So that was the level of detail. 169 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: When I was arrested and my co defendants were arrested, 170 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: the three men that ended up being in charge were 171 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: all black. I had dreadlocks at the time, my co 172 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: defendant had dreadlocks at the time, and the other co 173 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: defendant was of dark black African appearance. So all three 174 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,239 Speaker 2: black men who were eventually charged didn't fit the descriptions 175 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: that were not only described by the victims, but it 176 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: was also repeated in these headlines that the police were 177 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: looking for two white men and one black man, and 178 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: that two white men were seen burning the cars, and 179 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So the details were quite obvious. 180 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: How could the police go on to charge three black men? 181 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: Right? These were not identifications that were given for across 182 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: the street or down the road, where you might say, well, 183 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: maybe they were mistaken about the race. Maybe it was 184 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: dark the street like didn't work something like that. No, 185 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: these were up close and personal crimes, and there's no 186 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: way that everybody got the race of the perpetrators wrong. 187 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, Jason. These weren't fleeting glances across the 188 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: road in the dead of night. There was a level 189 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: of detail that you could not excuse. 190 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: And this was certainly a case as well where you 191 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: would hope that the authorities would be on their a 192 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: game because everybody needed these guys off the streets. I mean, 193 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: whoever did this are literally the people for whom prisons 194 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: are built. 195 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 3: I totally agree with you, Jason. 196 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: I think the problem is is when these sensational headlines 197 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: put politicians and lawmakers the police under the extreme pressure, 198 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: they then start to target people that are innocent. They 199 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,119 Speaker 2: then home in on people who are the most vulnerable, 200 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: i e. Those types of individuals like myself, who the 201 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: public wouldn't care about. 202 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 203 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making 204 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 205 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light 206 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 207 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,599 Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, 208 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: the AIG pro Bono program provides free legal services and 209 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. 210 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: Twelve people were arrested on the nineteenth of December nineteen 211 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: ninety eight under suspicion of being involved in these crimes. 212 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: I was one of my co defendant, Michael Davis, who 213 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: was also my best friend and lived with me in 214 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: the hostel, as was a number of other individuals who 215 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 2: lived in a hostel. Three in particular, three young white 216 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: guys were also arrested, as was a young Asian guy, 217 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: but it was only me, my co defendant, and the 218 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: three white guys who remained in the police station being 219 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: interviewed and interrogated by the police between the nineteenth of 220 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 2: December and the twenty second of December nineteen eighty eight, 221 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: when I was charged and then sent to a remand 222 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: prison to await trial. My friend Michael was reminded in custody. 223 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: The two white guys and the Asian guy were not 224 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: charged with the murder and the series of robberies, and 225 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: it was about three weeks later that Randolph Egbert Johnson 226 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: who was involved in a high speed car chase with 227 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,479 Speaker 2: the police, was arrested and he became the third suspect 228 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: in the so called M twenty five case. Randolph I 229 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: didn't know him. I had no association with him. I 230 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 2: think i'd met him once before, but we had no 231 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: connection at all. 232 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: And so tell me about the police interrogation. 233 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 2: There were two particular police officers who were responsible for 234 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 2: my risks. And these two cops were typical of your 235 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: good cop, bad cop type guys. One of them hated 236 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: me from the moment he set eyes on me. The 237 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: other one was slightly more reserved, always talked for and 238 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 2: reflective of my answers, and he always gave me some 239 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: confidence that he was believing me because I was not 240 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 2: one of those suspects who sat in the police cell 241 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 2: saying no comment, no comment, No. I took every opportunity 242 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 2: to tell them that I was not involved, that they 243 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: were pointing the finger at the wrong guy. I was 244 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 2: providing them with as much detail as I possibly could 245 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: about where I was, who I was with, what I 246 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: was doing, and it fell on deaf ears. And the 247 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: reason for that is because the other suspects that the 248 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: police were interrogating, were telling lies, were making stories up, 249 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: and I'd go as far as to say they were 250 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: buying with other police officers at the time to fabricate 251 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: evidence that would then be used against me. You know, 252 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 2: even the victims themselves, who I have all the sympathy 253 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: for in the world as to what they experienced, even 254 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: they started to change their statements. So every time I 255 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: told the police where I was and what I was 256 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: doing and who I was with, they quickly got people 257 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: to change their statements or their time so that it 258 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: would undermine the evidence that proved unequivocally that I was innocent. 259 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 3: And do you know why that is, Jason. 260 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: During the interrogation, the police have it in their head 261 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: that they've got the right people, the evidence that's coming 262 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: into the interview room, all these fabricated bits of evidence 263 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: which were convincing the police that they were onto the 264 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: right guys, regardless of the victims descriptions. The problem was 265 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: is that by the time they were starting to discover 266 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: the real evidence, i e. The evidence that proved I 267 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: had an alibi, the evidence that proved I could not 268 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: have been involved in. 269 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 3: These crimes, it was too late. 270 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: So that's why they then went back to witnesses and 271 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: victims and started to get them to change their statement. 272 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: And that's easy for the police to do when you 273 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: believe in the police, and these victims are law abiding 274 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: citizens who go by whatever the police tell them they 275 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: need to go by. 276 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: You know, I have to point out that in America 277 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: there's only one state, which is Minnesota, where they record 278 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: I was interrogations, And I feel that's a reform that 279 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: needs to be instituted nationwide and worldwide, because most people 280 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: understand the reason why you need to record interrogations of 281 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: suspects to make sure they're not being beaten, coerced fed information, 282 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. But in some cases, including this one, 283 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: that would have been extremely valuable to have access to 284 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: the videotapes of these incredibly suggestive witness identification procedures. I mean, 285 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: they were not even being suggested. They're being told, you're wrong, 286 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: don't believe your eyes, believe us. 287 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: And I should say now, there was absolutely no forensic 288 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: evidence or any other kind of scientific evidence in this 289 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: case that pointed to me and my co defendants. In fact, 290 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: the opposite was true. There was some forensic evidence, i e. Fingerprints, 291 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: found on the car at the scene of the murder 292 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: that linked the case to a white guy with blue 293 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: eyes and fair hair. II fitted the description as described 294 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: by some of the victims. And when the police discovered that, 295 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: and I'm already locked up in prison charged with these crimes, 296 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: they went to this witness and they got this witness 297 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: to say that they stole the car that was used 298 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: in the robbery for me and my co defendants rather 299 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: than interrogate that individual about their involvement. 300 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: It's a tangled freaking webman, this is a lot and Raphael, 301 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: let's get to your alibi, because you had multiple people 302 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: testifying to where you were during the crimes, right, please 303 00:16:58,840 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: take us through this. 304 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: Initially, in the witness that survived statement, the murder was 305 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 2: timed to take in place at eleven thirty pm on 306 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: the night of the fifteenth December nineteen eighty eight. At 307 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 2: that time, me and my co defendant were with four 308 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: girls who we were knocking about with. I was sleeping 309 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: with one of those girls. And at about ten thirty 310 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: on the night of the murder and these series of robberies, 311 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: one of the girls invited me and my friend and 312 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: her mates back to her parents' house. So at about ten 313 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: thirty of the girls and my co defendant went back 314 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: to this other girl's house. I met her mum for 315 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: the first time, I met her sister, and I met 316 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: her sister's boyfriend, who was a solicitor, and we were 317 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: there until about half past midnight. All these witnesses verify this, 318 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: so that's an hour after the murder had been committed. 319 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: And at about half past twelve, the solicitor wanted to 320 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: get rid of this rowdy couple of guys who were 321 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: smoking weed and bouncing around with their dreadlocks. The solicitor 322 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: offered to give me and my friend a lift back 323 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 2: to our flat, and we agreed, and the solicitor drove me, 324 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: my co defend and the girl I was sleeping with 325 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: back to my flat and we arrived back at about 326 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: just twenty to one in the morning. I went back 327 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: to my room with this girl. We smoked a joint 328 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 2: and then we made love. So I was in bed 329 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 2: with her until about one point thirty in the morning, 330 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 2: so this is two hours after the murder had been committed. 331 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: This was just as the second robbery was taken place, 332 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: and I'm forty miles away from where these incidents were 333 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: already taking place, and this was my alibi. And all 334 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: of these witnesses I just mentioned came into the court 335 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 2: at the time of my trial and told the jury 336 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: that I was with them at this time. And this 337 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 2: is why the police got that first victim to change 338 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: their statement. They said that the crime didn't happen at 339 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 2: eleven thirty, It happened at twelve thirty. But even then 340 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: I still had an alibi that put me miles away 341 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: from where this crime was committed. But crucially, the girlfriend 342 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 2: that I was in bed with was then undermined by 343 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 2: the police because she gave the police items of jury 344 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 2: that had come from one of the robberies, saying that 345 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: she got that jury from me. That was an outright lie, 346 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: and I can tell you why. When I was in 347 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 2: prison a few months later, this girl wrote me a letter, 348 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: unbeknown that it would be crucial evidence, admitting that she'd 349 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: lied and that she'd been put up by the police 350 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: to telling the police that I'd given her items a 351 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 2: jury in order to save herself from being accused of 352 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 2: perverting the course of justice or something like that. So 353 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 2: a I had a cast iron alibi. B The police's 354 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: attempt to undermine my alibi witnesses ability by fabricating evidence 355 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: which she admitted was untrue. That's what we were up 356 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: against at the time of my trial. 357 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're changing the times, they're changing the races of 358 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: the perpetrators. They're coercing well threatening eyewitnesses and alibi witnesses. 359 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: It's a whirlwind. So the trial itself, Raphael, it must 360 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: have been a circus atmosphere. If I'm going to guess, 361 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: please tell us about that experience. Here you are now, 362 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I'm going to say, one of 363 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: the most hated men in the country along with your 364 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: co defense. 365 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: The court setting was that the Old Bailey, which is 366 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: the number one call in the United Kingdom. And yes, 367 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 2: it was a circus. Me and my two co defendants, 368 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: all three of us stood in the dock, accused of 369 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: the murder and the three robberies and the attempted murder, 370 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 2: and witness after witness, including the victims, who stood up 371 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 2: in the dock and gave evidence against us. Some told 372 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 2: the truth, many told lies. One of the most awkward 373 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 2: moments Jason in the trial was when the victims stood 374 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: in the dock and they were asked to describe the perpetrators, 375 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 2: and that's when the umzhnas started to come in. You know, 376 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: the victims were Yeah, I did say that it was 377 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: white skinned, and yes I did say they had blue eyes. 378 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 3: But maybe I was wrong. Why was you wrong? 379 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 2: But the police seemed to believe that those men in 380 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: the dock were guilty. That was one of the saddest 381 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: things for me that the victims could look at the 382 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: three guys that were in the dock, know that we 383 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 2: didn't commit the crime and couldn't do anything about it. 384 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 2: And yet somehow that jury they went out and they 385 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 2: came back and they found us guilty. 386 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, in spite of the fact that the victims 387 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: are acknowledging their own original identifications of these white, blonde, 388 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: blue eyed individuals, and in spite of the fact of 389 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 1: your many alibi witnesses, in spite of all of that, 390 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: the jury goes out and finds you guilty. So can 391 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: you take us back to that moment. 392 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: When the jury came in and they read the guilty 393 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,239 Speaker 2: verdict against me for murder, for attempted murder, and for 394 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 2: three serious robberies. The judge had no alternative but to 395 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 2: send me to prison for the rest of my life 396 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 2: plus fifty odd years, which is the accumulation of all 397 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 2: the sentences added up for the robberies. It's really difficult 398 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 2: to say at that point that I was crushed like 399 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: a penut under my foot, because I'd already been crushed 400 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: when I was first charged with these offenses and condemned 401 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: to prison. I was crushed, and it was during those 402 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: eighteen months that I built a resilience within myself, a 403 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: determination not to allow them to get away with what 404 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: they were doing, not just to me and my family, 405 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: but also the victims and anybody else that was being 406 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: caught up wrongly. So by the time the jury came 407 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: in and found me guilty, as crushing as that was, 408 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: as desperate as I was a twenty one year old 409 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: destined to spend the rest of my life in prison 410 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: for a crime I didn't commit, I knew I was 411 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 2: not going to give up. I knew that they got 412 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 2: it wrong. They knew that they got it wrong, so 413 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 2: I was never ever going to allow this to sit 414 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 2: on that day forever more. I think it was the 415 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: fact that I became so militant as a young twenty 416 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 2: one year old that I did everything I possibly could 417 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: to keep my body as fit as I possibly could 418 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 2: in order to withstand the four walls that I was 419 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: being confined in. So rather than sit in that cell, 420 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: I exercised in that cell, used it as my gym, 421 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: used it as my office, use it as the space 422 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: that I was going to work my way out, whether 423 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: that was psychologically or physically. So I was studying the law, 424 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,719 Speaker 2: teaching myself as much much as I possibly could about 425 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: the law in order to understand how and why what 426 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: had happened to me happened to me. And I should 427 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 2: stress that in those years I was so militant, I 428 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: did not conform. I refused to work in prison every day. 429 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 2: As a convicted person, you are expected to follow the 430 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: regime of the maximum security prison. Ie, you go to work, 431 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: you do the things the authorities expect you to do 432 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: as a guilty man. When I wasn't a guilty man, 433 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 2: so I was going to do everything in the opposite. 434 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: So when they opened my cell door and shouted my 435 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: name to go to work, I refused to leave the cell. 436 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: The consequence would mean that they would come into the 437 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: cell and physically drag me out of the cell, take 438 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: me to the isolation block, where I would spend days 439 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: or weeks or months being punished for not being prepared 440 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: to put up with what guilty people had to endure. 441 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 3: And that went on for years. 442 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: It was me against the system as well as my 443 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction. And I mean I was brutalized so badly 444 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 2: by the authorities for not conforming. There were plenty of 445 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 2: times where they physically beat me or locked me in 446 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: isolation cells completely naked, for no other reason than they could. 447 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: So now, from inside the confines of these barbaric prisons 448 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: that you were in, how did you manage to ultimately 449 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: free yourself? 450 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: One of the big turning points for me, Jason was 451 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: the media. The publications and broadcast has paid a significant 452 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: role in my wrongful conviction by calling me a monster, 453 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 2: by asking for hanging to be brought back into the 454 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 2: United Kingdom to kill people like me who were guilty 455 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: of such horrible crimes. If the media could play such 456 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: a powerful role in my wrongful conviction, maybe they could 457 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: play a role in getting my conviction over turn. So 458 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: I embarked on a journalism correspondence course whilst I was 459 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: in prison, and that just meant paper pushing in the 460 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: same way that I read every document, every line, every 461 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: sentence of every document that was involved in my case, 462 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: over and over again for years, and I'd become very 463 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 2: tuned into how cases worked and didn't work, and I 464 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 2: learned so much teaching myself how journalists work. Meant I 465 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: could manipulate stories that I could send out there. So 466 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: I'd write letters to some of our national newspapers, the Guardian, 467 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: the Independent, the Son, the Mirror, and they'd start to 468 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: slowly but surely publish my letters or publish little things 469 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: that I said. And then that triggered what happened next, 470 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: which was simply that the media who called me a 471 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: monster were all of a sudden starting to question the 472 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 2: safety of my conviction, and they were showing interest in 473 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 2: coming to visit me. So I'd sit on a visiting 474 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 2: table and talk to these journalists about why I was 475 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 2: innocent and asking them questions about what they remembered at 476 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: the time, and that just led to a lot of 477 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: publicity questioning the safety of my conviction, and that rocked 478 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: the British criminal justice system to its core. They really 479 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: started to wobble at the idea that they'd locked up 480 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 2: three innocent black men. And once the media started questioning 481 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 2: the safety of my conviction, once the media started to 482 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 2: remind the new generation of children that three black men 483 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: were in prison for crimes committed by two white men, 484 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 2: we go needed a lot of support. And that made 485 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 2: a big difference because it was then ten years into 486 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: my wrongful life imprisonment that barristers and reputable lawyer started 487 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 2: to take an interest when I wrote to them asking 488 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: for their help, and so they did start to help. 489 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: And then there was one moment where an eminent human 490 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: rights lawyer discovered that the non disclosure of the reward 491 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: money meant that I'd been deprived the right of a 492 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 2: fair trial, and that particular lawyer took my case to 493 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: the European Court of Human Rights and it was an 494 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 2: opportunity to set out the fact that free black member 495 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: in prison for crimes committed by two white men. One 496 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 2: black man, I had a cast iron alibi witness, had 497 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: given fabricated evidence, reward money had been paid and it 498 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 2: had not been disclosed. So all this was laid out 499 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: in front of twenty nine judges at the European Court 500 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: of Human Rights and they unanimously in nineteen ninety nine 501 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 2: ruled that I had been denied the right to a 502 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: fair trial and that that rocked the British government and 503 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: in two thousand the government told the Court of Appeal 504 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 2: they had to rehear my case. And it was just 505 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: a few months after that my convictions were overturned. 506 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: You turned the train around on the tracks. It's amazing 507 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: that you were able to do it from this dungeon 508 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: that you were in and even managed to keep your 509 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: wits about you. Your code defendants did they benefit from 510 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: your work as well? Were they freed when you were? 511 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 3: They were? 512 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: Yes, My co defendants convictions were also overturned at the 513 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: Court of Appeal at the same time that my convictions 514 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: were overturned, and that happened on the seventeenth of July 515 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 2: two thousand. 516 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: And What was that moment like walking out. 517 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: From the age of twenty and to the age of 518 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: thirty two. I was confined in a single cell by myself. 519 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 2: I suffered in those twelve years and it wasn't until 520 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: they quashed my convictions. I walked down the steps of 521 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 2: the Court of Appeal. They opened up the door, the 522 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 2: door that was going to set me free. That I 523 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: for the first time cried. I fell into the arms 524 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: of my sister, one of my three sisters, and it 525 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: was the first time I cried in all the years 526 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: that I was in prison, and it felt so good. 527 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: And then I walked with my family to the front 528 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: of the Court of Appeal and shouted my mouth off 529 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: about how I'd lost so many years of my life 530 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 2: in prison to the world's media. The judges cheekily and 531 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 2: typically turned round and said, this is not a declaration 532 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 2: of innocence. But they quashed my conviction as unsafe and 533 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: they set me free. And that was the big turning point. 534 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: That's when my life began. That wasn't the end of 535 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: an ordeal. That was the beginning of my life. 536 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: That's beautiful, And you're involved in so many things now, Raphael, 537 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: and it's awesome to see how you've taken the world 538 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: by the balls since you came home. So please share 539 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: with us what's your life like now. 540 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: For me, it was one of those kind of classical 541 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 2: right place, right time, right opportunity. From the age of 542 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: twenty to thirty two, I studied the law in prison, 543 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: I studied journalism, so there was only two things I 544 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: could do when I got out of and that was 545 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: go down that route of campaigning on behalf of other 546 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: miscarriage of justice victims. But I've just spent twelve years 547 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: of my own fucking life fighting hard, and as much 548 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 2: as I do that in my own way, now, the 549 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: other option was journalism, so that's what I did. 550 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 3: I went. 551 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,959 Speaker 2: I met a man who at the time was a 552 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: senior figure at the BBC, the British Broadcasting Corporation. He 553 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: offered me an opportunity, and before I knew it, I 554 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 2: was working on the most prestigious radio program here in 555 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 2: the United Kingdom called the Radio for Today program, and 556 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 2: I remember sitting at the desk as a sort of 557 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: call center calling up politicians. Asked him to come on 558 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 2: the program, and after two or three days, I went 559 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: into the editor and I said, listen, you know what, 560 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: I've just spent twelve years sitting on a cell bed 561 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: or a cell chair. 562 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 3: I can't do this. This is not for me. I 563 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 3: need to be free. 564 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: And he offered me the opportunity to try my hand 565 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 2: at being a reporter on this prestigious program, and I 566 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: accepted and I didn't look back. I went on to 567 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: become a reporter on this program. Now you've got to 568 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 2: remember Jason and your audience. When I came out of prison, 569 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 2: I was handed a mobile for the first time. The 570 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 2: Internet didn't exist when I went to prison, so there 571 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 2: were lots of technological developments, so I was learning things 572 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: on the job at the BBC, and this was within 573 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 2: twelve months of getting out, and I worked my way 574 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: through the BBC, working for the Radio Pro then I 575 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 2: worked for the prestigious BBC News program, and then I 576 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 2: worked for the longest running current affairs investigative program Panorama 577 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 2: as one of their correspondents. I spent a lot of 578 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 2: my early career as a BBC journalist as an undercover 579 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: operative because I knew how to duck and dive. Having 580 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: survived in prison, I had a gift for the gap 581 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: in that well. And so I spent the next sixteen years, 582 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: having been released from prison, carving out this successful career 583 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 2: as a BBC journalist, as a public speaker, as somebody 584 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: who inspired other people from backgrounds like mine, or bringing 585 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: together people from my background and the academic or the 586 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: affluent background to show that we could work together to 587 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 2: bring about change. 588 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 3: In social justice. 589 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: And I left the BBC after sixteen seventeen years and 590 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: was given the opportunity by Netflix to do this series 591 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: called Inside the World's Toughest Prisons. And I thought they 592 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: were crazy to be asking me, having spent so long 593 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: trying to get the fuck out of prisons, to go 594 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 2: back in Willingly, I thought long and hard and thought, 595 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: do you know what I can change people's perceptions about 596 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: the people that are in these places. I can change 597 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: people's perceptions about what prison is really like. You know, 598 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: Let's get rid of all this sensational violence stuff. Let's 599 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: get rid of all this kind of stigma around who 600 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 2: these individuals are, and let's try and understand more. And 601 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 2: it's been a phenomenal success. I go in prisons all 602 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: around the world spend seven days with the prisoners to 603 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 2: try and find the balance between rehabilitation punishment. In addition 604 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: to that, I have my own podcast, Second Chance. I 605 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: talk to people about why they give people a second chance, 606 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: what their second chance is, what that means to people, 607 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: not just people that have come out of prison and 608 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 2: gone on to become entrepreneurs or people that have been 609 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 2: wrongly convicted who have gone on to lead successful careers 610 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: like I have, but loads of different questions around what 611 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: second chance actually means. During the lockdown first pandemic, I 612 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: wrote my first book because so many people have asked 613 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 2: me about my life story, and although in bits and 614 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 2: pieces I've shared it, I've never put it all in 615 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 2: one place. 616 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 3: So I wrote my. 617 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 2: Autobiography, Notorious, which was published at the end of last year. 618 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 2: The most important thing for me, the legacy of everything, 619 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 2: is the Rafael Row Foundation, and having experienced prisons around 620 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: the globe, I realized so much needs to be done, 621 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 2: not just for the prisoners, but the prisons to improve 622 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: the humanity and the ability to rehabilitate or give people 623 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 2: a second chance. And that's why I recently set up 624 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: the Rafael Row Foundation in the hope that my legacy 625 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 2: will be to guard near people change their perception about 626 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: what prisons really are, what they mean, and how they 627 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 2: can help people rather than destroy people or their families. 628 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: It's great work and it speaks volumes about your character 629 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: that you're giving back in the ways that you best can, right. 630 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you have a natural gift for this stuff, 631 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: and you found your I'm going to call it your calling, 632 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: and it's wonderful to see you sort of thriving and 633 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: you succeeding I think, beyond any reasonable expectations that anybody 634 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: could have had, and just making a difference. You know, 635 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: what can I say except you have all of my 636 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: respect and I'm just glad that you're here today. And 637 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: of course for anyone listening who wants to learn more 638 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: about Raphael's journey and follow it as I do, and 639 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: as I will his podcast, his book, the Raphael Row Foundation. 640 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: We're going to have links to all of them in 641 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: our bio and I'm sure people can follow you on Instagram, right, 642 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: and what about other social media? 643 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter, I have a website. 644 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: If you put my name Rafel Row Rowe or a 645 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 2: reporter on Twitter or Instagram, you'll be able to find 646 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 2: me up. 647 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,479 Speaker 1: And now we come to the closing of our show. 648 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: It's called closing arguments, and closing arguments works just like this. 649 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to kick back in my chair, turn my 650 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: microphone off, and leave my headphones on, and of course 651 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: leave your mic open for you to share any final 652 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: thoughts you may have with our audience. 653 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 2: I think for me, one of the most important things 654 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: is who am I? 655 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 3: Who am I? 656 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 2: So I shared with you my upbringing. I shared with 657 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 2: you my ordeal of being wrongly convicted and imprisoned. I've 658 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 2: shared with you a bit about the work that I 659 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: do now having got out of prison. You know, when 660 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: you think you hit the summit, you never quite hit 661 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 2: the summit, because there's always more to climb. 662 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 3: And that's what I've done. 663 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 2: In my successful career as a journalist. But I'm constantly 664 00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 2: asking myself the question who am I? And that's what 665 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: I want people to do. Ask themselves, who are you? 666 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 3: Who am I? 667 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,359 Speaker 2: Am I the person that wants to make lots of money? 668 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: Am I the person who wants to care for my 669 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: elderly parent? Am I the person who wants to become 670 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 2: a high performance athlete? I always ask myself the question 671 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 2: who am I? And I've reached what I think is 672 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 2: a fair description of myself. I am who I've always been. 673 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 2: I'm the same person that I was when I was 674 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 2: a kid. I'm the same person that I was when 675 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 2: I was in prison, and I'm definitely the same person 676 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 2: now that I'm free. And that person is an honest, 677 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: direct with morals and values where I believe not just 678 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,720 Speaker 2: in myself, but in other people and by other people. 679 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 2: I mean, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Why 680 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: shouldn't I Why shouldn't you give up a few minutes 681 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 2: of your time or your space to see the other 682 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 2: side of someone? Because I've shown over the years there 683 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 2: are different sides to everybody. The person I am today, 684 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 2: as I say, is the same person I was when 685 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 2: I was a kid, when I was innocent, when I 686 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: just enjoyed the things that we all do before we're 687 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: corrupted by the things that we witness and hear as 688 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: we get older, or our desires and our wants. So 689 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 2: that's my final word, Ask yourself, who are you? Because 690 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 2: I know who I am. 691 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 692 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Clivern, 693 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis. With research by Lyla Robinson. The music 694 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 695 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 696 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 697 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava 698 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow 699 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: me on both talk and Instagram at its. Jason flam 700 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: Raevel Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts 701 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one