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Speaker 1: How did an eighteen year old girl just starting her

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Speaker 1: life vanish while out running with her dog? How does

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Speaker 1: that happen? We hear the same scenario over and over

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Speaker 1: and over. This girl, Amanda Mandy Stavic, vanishes in broad

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Speaker 1: daylight around two pm November twenty four, jogging with her

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Speaker 1: dog near her own home, Bellingham, Washington State. This is

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Speaker 1: a lovely area, very low crime rate. How did it happen?

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Maddie. It just graduated from

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Speaker 1: my school. She was in her first year at Central

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Speaker 1: Washington University. She came home for Thanksgiving break. Mandy left

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Speaker 1: her home on the day after Thanksgiving in nineteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: She wanted to get in and run. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of in the late afternoon. She had a daily route

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Speaker 1: that she used to jog that took her down the

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Speaker 1: road that her house was on on Strand Road, down

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Speaker 1: to the Nosack River and back. She went with their dog, Kira,

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Speaker 1: German shepherd dog. It was an older dog, but it

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Speaker 1: was said it was very protective of Mandy. I was

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Speaker 1: panicked the middle of She didn't get home one time,

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Speaker 1: and then I was doubly panicked a few minutes later

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Speaker 1: when the dog was there and she wasn't any kind

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Speaker 1: of missing person call is a nine one one call

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Speaker 1: and it requires immune response and a deputy will go

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Speaker 1: out and talk to the reporting party in any investigation

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Speaker 1: like this year. Now look at boyfriends, anybody that they

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Speaker 1: might have had trouble with Dy. His boyfriend was cleared

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Speaker 1: after he gave a police statement. You were just hearing

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Speaker 1: our friends at ABC twenty twenty. Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: Mandy left her home on the day after Thanksgiving in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. She wanted to get in a run.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of in the late afternoon. She had

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Speaker 1: a daily route that she used to jog that took

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Speaker 1: her down the road that her house was on on

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Speaker 1: Strand Road, down to the Nosack River and back. She

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Speaker 1: went with their dog, Kira, German shepherd dog was an

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Speaker 1: older dog, but it was said it was very protective

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Speaker 1: of Fandy. I normally went with her. I rode my bike,

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Speaker 1: she ran, and the dog pounded along after us. But

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Speaker 1: that last morning which she disappeared, I didn't go with

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Speaker 1: her because my sister was there, and so I kicked

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Speaker 1: myself when she didn't come back when she should have

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Speaker 1: come back and then the dog came back without her.

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Speaker 1: I was panicky. First person I called was her boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: Mary was worried that many was missing. Then I got worried.

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Speaker 1: The dog came home alone after about two hours, and

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Speaker 1: they suspected something terrible had happened to her. It was

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Speaker 1: so unusual that people started looking immediately. You were hearing

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Speaker 1: our friends at ABC twenty twenty, and it reminds me

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Speaker 1: so much of the case of Karita Vatranto, the Long

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Speaker 1: Island jogger. The one day her firefighter dad Field Vatranto

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Speaker 1: does not go jogging with her, she ends up dead.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is a lot of guilt to carry around,

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Speaker 1: And you're hearing the same thing in the case of

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Speaker 1: this teen girl, Mandy Stavic, And that's kind of guilt

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Speaker 1: that follows you and weighs on you the rest of

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Speaker 1: your life. With me right now, an all star paddle.

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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot, judge and trial lawyer at Ashley Wilcott dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley Detected and this guy knows his way around

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Speaker 1: a courtroom and a crime scene. Author of Outside Your

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Speaker 1: Door on Amazon. George skiro DNA expert with scales Biological

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Speaker 1: Laboratory in and boy do we need a DNA expert today.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Katherine Maloney joining me. Renowned Deputy Chief Medical Examiner,

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Speaker 1: Erie County Medical Examiner's Office. Doctor Carla Manley, Psychologists Fear Specialist,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Carla Manley dot Com her latest book, Aging Joyfully.

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Speaker 1: But right now to Joanna Small, reporter with k I

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Speaker 1: R O seven TV. Joanna, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the area where Mandy Stavic went missing.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned, Nancy, it was the Bellingham area, but

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Speaker 1: it's actually a little bit northeast of there in a

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Speaker 1: more world community. It's Watsom County, which is the closest

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Speaker 1: county to Canada, and the town that Mandy lived in

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Speaker 1: is called act Me and it was a very small community.

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Speaker 1: Everyone was very tight knit. In fact, the majority of

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Speaker 1: her friends lived on the same street she did, that

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Speaker 1: was Strand Road. They all went to a small high

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Speaker 1: school called Mount Baker. People at that high school still

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Speaker 1: remember her, and there's teachers who are still working there.

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Speaker 1: So Mandy's community was very well aware of her, and

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Speaker 1: she was, you know, a top athlete. She was a

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Speaker 1: very popular girl. She had a lot of family members

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Speaker 1: so it was no secret that she was well liked

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Speaker 1: and beloved in that community. That is hurting me so much.

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Speaker 1: She is just a little girl out jogging with her

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Speaker 1: dog and a small rural community there on the Canadian border.

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Speaker 1: She goes missing, and it is a free for all.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's looking for Mandy, an extensive search for a missing teenager.

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Speaker 1: Her brother, who was visiting a neighbor, actually saw her

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Speaker 1: run one direction and then a few minutes later run

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Speaker 1: the other way. He was the last person to see her.

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Speaker 1: Every TV station, radios, and even outside the state, national

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Speaker 1: media we're covering it. I was in my first year

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Speaker 1: as a reporter at the Bellingham Herald at the time.

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Speaker 1: I hopped in my car and I drove out and

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Speaker 1: interviewed Mary. She understood that there was a chance that

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Speaker 1: we could help. You're hearing the voice of a Bellingham

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Speaker 1: Harold reporter Carol Herrick at ABC twenty twenty Joanna Small

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Speaker 1: with me ka I r O seven TV. Joanna tell

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Speaker 1: me about the search that ensued and who first called

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Speaker 1: nine one one. Mandy again was a very well liked,

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Speaker 1: very popular girl. Most people knew of her and really

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Speaker 1: cared about her family. So immediately a search was launched,

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Speaker 1: a very extensive search because I mentioned if it's an

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Speaker 1: extremely rural area right along the Nooksack River, and it

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Speaker 1: was such a large geographic space, so it required a

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Speaker 1: lot of manpower. There were hundreds, hundreds of people who

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Speaker 1: were out there searching for Mandy, and it was pretty

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Speaker 1: overwhelming detectives. People from Bellingham, people from Seattle, and that's

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Speaker 1: about two and a half hours south of the Acne area.

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Speaker 1: So the search continued for several days. People she'd gone

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Speaker 1: to high school, if people from her past, people who

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Speaker 1: didn't even know her. And again, it was extensive. The

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Speaker 1: Nooksack River is a fact moving, very long and wide river,

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Speaker 1: and they were searching the entire area, so it was

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Speaker 1: incredibly time consuming and incredibly intense. You know, very often

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Speaker 1: people think if they have a dog with them, it

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Speaker 1: saves them from danger. And actually, as you know, Ash Walcott,

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Speaker 1: I'm working on a new book, Don't be a Victim,

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Speaker 1: and that is one of the tips I give people,

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Speaker 1: if you can take a dog with you. She did

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Speaker 1: take a dog with her, but that did not stop

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Speaker 1: her from going missing. And I'm looking at a photo

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Speaker 1: of her right now, and you can see this photo

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Speaker 1: at crime online dot com. She has the hairstyle of

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Speaker 1: the day. It's long and then waves, kind of like

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Speaker 1: a fair of faucet, but not exactly beautiful, kind of

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Speaker 1: a strawberry blonde, big brown eyes, and somebody puts some

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Speaker 1: money into her smile, because there's no way you can

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Speaker 1: have a smile that perfect. Jack. You look at this,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at that. I mean somebody loves this

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Speaker 1: girl and is taking care of her. The one day

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Speaker 1: they don't go jogging with her, she goes missing. To

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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot, judge and trial lawyer at Ashley Wilcot dot com.

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Speaker 1: How many times do we do things in retrospect as teens,

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Speaker 1: as young people, even just up until the time the

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Speaker 1: twins were born, I would go running up and down

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Speaker 1: the East River at night at ten o'clock at not

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Speaker 1: me a felony prosecutor that knows better. It's a feeling

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Speaker 1: of invincible ability. I think it is, and I think

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Speaker 1: that goes with you. But keep in mind, generally, can

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Speaker 1: you trust? Sure? Right, people can trust and you can

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Speaker 1: trust that you can go for a run, that it's

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Speaker 1: all okay and it's going to be okay. But here's

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Speaker 1: the thing I need to say about the dogs, because

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Speaker 1: I noticed that as well. When you go running or

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Speaker 1: you have a dog with you, you absolutely assume that

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Speaker 1: it's safer and that you're going to be okay. So

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Speaker 1: the two things I would look for as a result

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Speaker 1: of that is, Number one, anyone at all that they

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Speaker 1: questioned that they interviewed, did they have any marks that

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Speaker 1: could have been caused by a dog, because that dog

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Speaker 1: might have bitten or gone after somebody who tried to

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Speaker 1: get to her. The second thing is I would think

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Speaker 1: in my mind it must have been somebody that she

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Speaker 1: knew and that knew her dog, because then a dog

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Speaker 1: would not be defending her necessarily. Well, I don't really

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Speaker 1: even know for sure what the dog, what kind it was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if it's our dog, it's a chubby little

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Speaker 1: docksin and I don't know, you know, if he would

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Speaker 1: pose that much of a threat, although he does a

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Speaker 1: lot of growling time stories with Nancy Grace, we are

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Speaker 1: talking about eighteen year old girl just starting her life

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Speaker 1: Vanish while out running with her dog. Stephen Lampley detective

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Speaker 1: at Stephen Lampley dot com, author of Outside Your Door

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Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, What about it? How safe is it for

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Speaker 1: someone like Mandy to go jock and remember this a

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Speaker 1: very rural area. How does that play into the scenario? Stephen, Well,

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Speaker 1: that you would think it would be safe, you know,

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Speaker 1: you would you would reasonably suspect that she's in a

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Speaker 1: rural area and she has a dog that even that

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Speaker 1: even had a German shepherd, you know, and on top

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Speaker 1: of that, you would think that you could go jogging

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Speaker 1: and ben be safe. Oh, it's a German shepherd. Hold on,

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Speaker 1: Joanna Small, It's a German Shepherd. It's a German Shepherd.

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Speaker 1: I think it's an older dog though, between like ten

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Speaker 1: and twelve years old, the German shepherd that she grew

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Speaker 1: up with. Does it still have teeth? That's my question

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Speaker 1: because Stephen Lampley, you know, I get into it all

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Speaker 1: the time about pit bulls and how they eat people.

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Speaker 1: Although there was a recent pit bull that saved a

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Speaker 1: family's life from a coral snake and his name was

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Speaker 1: Zeus and he passed away, okay, and I feel awful

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Speaker 1: about that, But they do still eat people. German shepherds

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Speaker 1: are right up there, I think in the top three.

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Speaker 1: They will bite you, yes, and she and she has

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Speaker 1: this German shepherd and they have a reputation for defending.

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Speaker 1: They're very, very loyal animals. So as a police officer,

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Speaker 1: if if I see, if I see a case like this,

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Speaker 1: and you know this as well as I do, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: whenever you have a young person that comes up missing

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Speaker 1: like under these circumstances, it never ends well. As opposed

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Speaker 1: to is if you have an elderly person that comes

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Speaker 1: up missing, maybe that person just forgotten how to get home,

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Speaker 1: but maybe they got lost or got preoccupied. Those don't

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Speaker 1: always end bad. But whenever you have a young person

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Speaker 1: that ends up missing like this, it almost always is

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Speaker 1: not a good result. Yeah, and I know that Steve

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Speaker 1: Lampley is speaking anecdotally, but the statistics do bear out

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Speaker 1: what he is saying. Take a listen to this. Learned

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Speaker 1: what Mandy's normal route was and followed the sign and

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Speaker 1: found the evidence that it was her sign that was

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Speaker 1: coming out onto that road, it was her tracks, and

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Speaker 1: followed it to a place where the tracks just stopped

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Speaker 1: and they shouldn't have. Her dog was running with her

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Speaker 1: and the dog tracks stopped there. Also, it makes you

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Speaker 1: think probably someone pulled her into a car and took

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Speaker 1: off with her. I mean that's kind of the worst.

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Speaker 1: She's not going to be forcibly taken forcible unless two

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Speaker 1: or three guys grabbed her. And there was no evidence

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Speaker 1: of that on the road. There was no scuffling, I'm

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Speaker 1: pushing and shoving and that type of thing. The question was,

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Speaker 1: was it just somebody driving by that drove up that

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Speaker 1: road and sees this beautiful girl running with a dog

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Speaker 1: and decides to grab her, or was it somebody that

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Speaker 1: knew her? And I'm trying to absorb everything that track

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Speaker 1: or Joel Harden is saying there to twenty twenty to

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Speaker 1: Joe at a small reporter jointed me from k I

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Speaker 1: R O SEVN TV. What is he saying about finding

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Speaker 1: trucks they believe they're mandis and then suddenly they stopped

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Speaker 1: and no evidence of a scuffle. Explain I interpret to

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Speaker 1: me what he's saying. Well, again, we prefer to it

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Speaker 1: several times. But the area being very very world in

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Speaker 1: Azec River is surrounded by brush and so it's very

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Speaker 1: easy to kind of disappear into that brush area. And

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Speaker 1: you have to remember Mandy was an athlete. She was

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Speaker 1: a star basketball player. She ran and almost every day.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there was a sport that she didn't play,

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Speaker 1: and she ran very very quickly, so there would never

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Speaker 1: It's not surprising. It wouldn't be surprising to any detectives

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Speaker 1: that there wasn't a visible scuffle. People were pretty sure

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Speaker 1: she could outrun just about anyone. Well yeah, unless that

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Speaker 1: person was in a car, because I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, common sense agrees with you. But when

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Speaker 1: I think back on you know, Karina Vatronto, she was

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Speaker 1: much more physically fit than her killer, Chanelle Lewis. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was addled with dope and booze. She could definitely

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Speaker 1: outrun him, but he had the muscles. And let's see

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Speaker 1: Molly Tippetts, she could have outrun her killer. I mean,

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Speaker 1: these women think about Missy Beavers, who was not running,

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Speaker 1: but as an exercise gladiator instructor, who was I guarantee

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Speaker 1: you more fit than whoever killed her. There's not a

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Speaker 1: gladiator called a gladiator instructor for no reason. So I

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Speaker 1: find it really interesting to Steve Lampley that they can

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Speaker 1: follow her tracks. You know, tennis shoes, running shoes, and

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Speaker 1: of course you see the dog tracks beside it, you

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Speaker 1: know that's her. And then suddenly they just stop. There's

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Speaker 1: if it's mud or sand or dirt. Do you see that,

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Speaker 1: it just stops. Analyze that for me, Stephen Lampley, Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I wish I could see what they saw on the footprints.

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Speaker 1: To have footprints, in other words, just to have to

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Speaker 1: have a couple of footprints like she's jogging and then

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Speaker 1: nothing more, without any scuff, without any turning of the

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Speaker 1: footprint like she's turned to talk to someone. To have

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Speaker 1: just footprints like she lifted off is really suspicious. I

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Speaker 1: would think there would be perhaps the ending, but maybe

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Speaker 1: she would have turned to talk to somebody, or the

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Speaker 1: footprints would have been smeared. There would be something more

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Speaker 1: than they just ended. In my opinion. Well, also think

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Speaker 1: about this, as Jackie here in the studio only points out,

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Speaker 1: she wouldn't just leave her dog behind, getting the car

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Speaker 1: willingly and leave her dog behind. For those of you

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Speaker 1: just joining us, a graduate of Mount Baker High Mandy Stavock,

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Speaker 1: home on bright from her freshman year at Central Washington University,

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Speaker 1: goes jogging, but then her German shepherd dog Kira, returns

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Speaker 1: home three hours later without Mandy, and then the nightmares

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Speaker 1: come true. This which went on for three days. She

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Speaker 1: was found. On the third day, Mandy was found on

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Speaker 1: the South Fork with the Nebsack River, probably close to

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Speaker 1: five and a half six miles from her house. There

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Speaker 1: was a bend in the river and some debris in

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Speaker 1: the body was just hung up in the debris there.

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Speaker 1: I saw her body. She was faced out. She was

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Speaker 1: just kind of suspended, just a little bit off the bottom.

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Speaker 1: There was a branch there. There was some debris that

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Speaker 1: prevented her from floating any further downstream. She was naked

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Speaker 1: except for shoots and socks on theeutenants match the description.

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Speaker 1: The detective that was with me dispatched himself in a

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Speaker 1: quick fashion to get to the family home to let

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Speaker 1: her know we had found her. I wouldn't wish this

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Speaker 1: on even my worst enemy. There's nothing, there is nothing worse.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing worse than losing a child. Oh my stars,

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Speaker 1: just hearing the mom is so so upsetting. You are

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Speaker 1: hearing our friends at ABC and Mandy's mom. To carlau Manly,

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Speaker 1: psychologist and fear specialist at doctor Carl up Many dot com,

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Speaker 1: her many mini books on Amazon dotor Carla Manley, when

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Speaker 1: my fiance was murdered, I had no idea there could

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Speaker 1: be a pain worse than that. When I lost my dad.

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Speaker 1: It seemed to bring it all back, the thought of

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Speaker 1: losing a child, your child to me, I don't think

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Speaker 1: I could go on, Doctor Marley. I do believe that

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Speaker 1: would be the worst loss, absolutely, because it's not what

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Speaker 1: we expect as a parent. We want to be the

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Speaker 1: one who predeceases the child, and so the parent in

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Speaker 1: this case, this beautiful mother is left thinking, oh, this

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Speaker 1: year Mandy would be doing this, and in fact, this

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Speaker 1: year where we are right now, she would be likely

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Speaker 1: turning forty eight. And when we start getting into the

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Speaker 1: mother's shoes and realizing what an incredible life long loss

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Speaker 1: this is. When we have this violent person who an

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Speaker 1: opportunistic act in a beautiful, small world community and wipes

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Speaker 1: out one of her most if not her most beloved

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Speaker 1: being on the planet, it's horrific crime stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner determined Mandy's cause of death to be drowning.

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Speaker 1: She'd suffered a head injury and had been sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 1: They took DNA evidence from Mandy's body. They created a

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Speaker 1: DNA profile of both Mandy and an unknown male time

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Speaker 1: and time again. They would have a person of interest,

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Speaker 1: they would question that person, but something would rule them out,

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Speaker 1: they had a good alibi or ultimately their DNA did

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Speaker 1: not match. This case dragged on. It comes a gold case,

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Speaker 1: but after ten, fifteen, twenty years, it's like, well, it's

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Speaker 1: never gonna be solved. Our friends at ABC and we

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Speaker 1: were talking about the cold case of Mandy Stavit, a

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Speaker 1: teen girl home from college on bright Thanksgiving, Bright, goes

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Speaker 1: jogging with her German shepherd dog. Never comes home, her

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Speaker 1: body found in a river, naked except for shoes and socks.

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Speaker 1: I mean to me, right there, that is the tip

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Speaker 1: off she was sex assaulted, but the medical examiner confirmed it.

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Speaker 1: To doctor Catherine Maloney joining me, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner

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Speaker 1: at Erie County Medical Examiner's Office, Nickel City Forensics, Doctor Maloney,

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Speaker 1: how do they tell after a body has been in

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Speaker 1: the water for that period of time three days, what

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Speaker 1: the cause of death is and that there was a

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Speaker 1: sex assault. Well, and in terms of a sex assault,

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Speaker 1: you could look for trauma to the genitalia. You could

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Speaker 1: also do swabs to look for the presence of sperm

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Speaker 1: or the for DNA to be in those swabs, and

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Speaker 1: then in terms of drowning being the diagnosis drowning is

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Speaker 1: sort of a diagnosis of exclusion, or you sort of

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Speaker 1: excluded everything else. So the person wasn't stabbed, they weren't shot,

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Speaker 1: they weren't strangled. They did say she had the it

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Speaker 1: sounded like a bruise on the back of her head.

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Speaker 1: So with nothing else than the assumption becomes the person

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Speaker 1: must have been drowned. They're found in water. Well, actually,

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Speaker 1: when you find a body naked except for the shoes

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Speaker 1: and socks in water dead, the fact that she was

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Speaker 1: unclosed says to me immediately there was a sex attack.

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Speaker 1: It's freezing cold. She's got on socks and shoes, so

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Speaker 1: that rules out a swim, which is, you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: far fetched to start with. But the fact that she's

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Speaker 1: naked and in the water says to me she has

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Speaker 1: been sex assaulted. That goes to motive to whoever killed her.

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Speaker 1: If this had been a consensual relationship, a consensual sex relationship,

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Speaker 1: she likely would not have been killed. So put that

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Speaker 1: together and that gives me a sex motive for murder.

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Speaker 1: To Katherine Maloney, Nickel City Forensics dotor. Maloney's speaking of DNA.

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Speaker 1: You would think that rushing water would take the DNA

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Speaker 1: off the body, but when the DNA is in the body,

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Speaker 1: such as in the vagina or the vaginal tract, the

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Speaker 1: water would have no effect on it. It would stay there.

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Speaker 1: That is correct. The DNA basically would have been in

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Speaker 1: a place where it couldn't have been washed off, Doctor Maloney,

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Speaker 1: How long can you get a viable DNA match from DNA,

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Speaker 1: for instance, in the vaginal track. That's a good question.

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Speaker 1: It probably depends on the condition of the body and

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Speaker 1: the condition of the where the body is found, if

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Speaker 1: the body is decomposed, if there's any type of insect

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Speaker 1: or animal activity that could have disrupted the presence of

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Speaker 1: the DNA. It really is kind of on a case

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Speaker 1: by case basis. I remember arguing to juries that and

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Speaker 1: this is before DNA, that DNA at trial anyway, there's

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Speaker 1: always been duxuraybendu claic acid, but before we could perfect

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Speaker 1: it to bring it into trial. Sperm last generally three

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Speaker 1: days about swimming around. First the tail breaks off, the

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Speaker 1: next day the head breaks off. Then after that that

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Speaker 1: the sperm starts to degenerate deteriorate. However, DNA not fully

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Speaker 1: intact Spermonozoa still exists. Joining me right now, DNA expert

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Speaker 1: from Scales Biological Laboratory, George Skiro, George Skiro, how long,

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Speaker 1: let's just say, inside the vaginal tract or in the mouth,

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Speaker 1: or the throat or in your rectum, how long inside

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Speaker 1: a body will DNA be preserved? Well, Nancy, As the

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Speaker 1: doctor pointed out, there are a number of variables that

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Speaker 1: go into that, and that's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we kind of call the holy grail of forensic science

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Speaker 1: is trying to determine what we call postcoital interview interval,

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Speaker 1: how long maybe time lapse between finding sperm and the

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Speaker 1: actual incident, and the data is all over the map.

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Speaker 1: There is one case where actually up to nineteen days

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Speaker 1: later in a cadaver they found in texts from ata zoa.

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Speaker 1: So there's no real timeline you can put on that.

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Speaker 1: So as long as it's there, as long as it's

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Speaker 1: not disturbed, as long as it's not diluted, it can

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Speaker 1: last many days. Wow, So we would be able to

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Speaker 1: recover that and take swabs, and then take those swabs

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Speaker 1: and then determine if they're spermatozoa present, and then determined DNA.

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Speaker 1: Determined the DNA from those spermatozoa. Back to Joanna Small,

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Speaker 1: reporter with ki R of seven TV. We know it's

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Speaker 1: three days later that a searcher came upon Mandy's lifeless

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Speaker 1: and naked body. They're in the south Fork of the

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Speaker 1: Nusak River. Who found her body? That was Detective Ron Peterson.

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Speaker 1: Initially a search team that was going that was actually

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Speaker 1: in the river, that was in the river by boat

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Speaker 1: saw the body. They were volunteer firefighters. They feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: approaching the bodies, so they contacted Detective Ron Peterson with

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Speaker 1: Wacom County Sheriff's Office, who immediately went to that area

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Speaker 1: and saw, as you mentioned, her body face down in

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Speaker 1: the water with only shoes and socks. And Ron also

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Speaker 1: has a daughter who went to school with Mandy and

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Speaker 1: looked a whole lot like Mandy in terms of you know,

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Speaker 1: it's the same hair, the same eyes, and immediately his mind,

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Speaker 1: he told me, went to his daughter, and so when

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Speaker 1: he turned her over, it was extremely emotional for him.

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Speaker 1: Everybody in that department has a personal connection to either

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Speaker 1: the family, the community, or Mandy herself, and so it

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Speaker 1: was heartbreaking. The search big ends from Mandy Statics killer

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Speaker 1: Less and we went out in contacted as many folks

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Speaker 1: as we could, asked for samples, try to find out

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Speaker 1: what they might have known or what they might have heard.

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Speaker 1: Over the last thirty years. The longest case I worked

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Speaker 1: on without having an investigative leave Teenae wife. One point,

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Speaker 1: we sent thirty one samples at one time. She sorted

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Speaker 1: to all of them, wouldn't say you lose hope after

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Speaker 1: comparing that many samples, But you can't be as excited

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Speaker 1: each time when you get let down that many times.

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Speaker 1: To me, it was if you haven't got anything to hide,

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Speaker 1: then there's no problem giving your DNA. And I had

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Speaker 1: no problems asking. The case had never never left the

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Speaker 1: thoughts of Bandy's France, and so two women were talking

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Speaker 1: about the case and talking about what a strange person

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Speaker 1: Tim Bass was. We should talk to the Sheriff's office,

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Speaker 1: they should look at him crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: He was very controlling and always told me what to do,

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Speaker 1: what I could wear, what I couldn't wear, who I

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Speaker 1: could talk to, who I couldn't talk to. He didn't

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Speaker 1: even call me by my name, He called me by

425
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: for twenty ten Gina had filed for a domestic Islands

426
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: protection order for herself and her three children. In the order,

427
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: she had said that she didn't feel safe and that

428
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: Tim would watch Cold Case TV files. When he would

429
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: watch the Cold Case Files or movies that pertain to murder,

430
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: he would always say the murderer was stupid, one didn't

431
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: cover his tracks very well, and he wouldn't be stupid

432
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: enough to get caught. Wow. Okay, that's scary enough right there.

433
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: And with a neighbor that people already think has peculiar

434
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: odd behavior. The minute a murder occurs of Mandy Stavic,

435
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: he suddenly gets married and moves away immediately. And I

436
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: don't know about you guys, but to ask you, Wilcott,

437
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: they had a wedding already planned to happen in the

438
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 1: future and then something goes Yeah, forget that, let's get

439
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: married right now. Move That would concern me, Yeah, absolutely.

440
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: And you know what, I always say that, especially about women, trust,

441
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: cut and instinct, and so it would concern me as well.

442
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: And why aren't you going to marry the devil on himself? Yeah?

443
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: I agree, but I find it a big red flag

444
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: that they suddenly get married and move away. Now, this

445
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: is even more of a red flag. Gina and Tim

446
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: in their home. They asked Tim to give a DNA sample.

447
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: I thought Tim would give us his DNA or he wouldn't.

448
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: But if you don't ask, you you don't know. And

449
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: they said that they were there to collect the DNA

450
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: that they had already collected from a lot of people

451
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: in the area. She said that she was expecting Tim

452
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: home within a few minutes. They asked him about Mandy

453
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: staff and he said, oh, and he looked up at

454
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: the ceiling like he couldn't remember that name. That was

455
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: definitely a red flag for me, which indicated to me

456
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: he's obviously lying. You don't grow up in that area.

457
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: Everybody knew what the many Staffic case was, and she

458
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: ran past his house every day. How would you not

459
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: know it? And he said, oh, that was at the

460
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: girl that was missing, and he said, they said, yes

461
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: it was, and he said, oh, you I remember she

462
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: was found in the river. Like it was sort of

463
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: for a revelation that he had brought that back to

464
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: his mind. You know, it is exactly who Manny Staffick was,

465
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: but he was playing it off like he didn't. Tim

466
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: said he wasn't going to give us a DNA that

467
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: he didn't trust the police, which was another red flag,

468
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: and by then we were out of flags. Well, won't

469
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: give a DNA sample and then pretends he doesn't know

470
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: the neighbor that ran by his house every single day. Now,

471
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: those are some red flags in my mind. What about it, Ashley?

472
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: Red flagues or get about red flague? To me, it

473
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: indicates Listen, he knew he was complicit. He has more

474
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: information than they know at this point in time. You know,

475
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: I just not giving DNA, pretending you don't know a neighbor,

476
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: then we have the problem. He refuses to give DNA,

477
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: and under the law at this point, they don't have

478
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: enough evidence to get a warrant on Tim Bass. They

479
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: can't force him to give his DNA, so they're kind

480
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: of stuck until this. If something happened to my daughter,

481
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: I'd want someone to help me, and I the thought

482
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: of her mom never having an answer of who did

483
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: that to her daughter? If I can help her find

484
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: that piece, I wanted to do it. She watched Tim

485
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: they got a water cooler at their office, and he

486
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: drank out of a plastic cup and threw it away.

487
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: I threw it in the garbage in front of me,

488
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: walked past into the bathroom, and I just I looked

489
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: on the garbage and my heart was like m you know,

490
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: beating out of my chest. And I grabbed it and

491
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: I put it in my desktoer. I think I waited

492
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: a little bit and then I texted Detective Bowie. I

493
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: couldn't get it back to the office quick enough and

494
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: down to the lab quick enough to have a test it. Wow,

495
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: you're hearing co workers of this guy, Tim Bass speaking

496
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: to ABC twenty twenty to Joanna Small, reporter k I

497
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: r O seven TV. Who is this person, Kim a

498
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: Wagoner and why does she feel she had to get

499
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: Tim Bass's DNA starreptitiously, secretly and with another person the

500
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: community who felt a connection to Mandy. She didn't know

501
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: Mandy personally, but like I said, everyone in the community

502
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: felt some kind of connection to this girl or to

503
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: her family and to her story. And Kim also has

504
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: a daughter, and so she felt incredibly motivated to help

505
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: the police in any way she could. This case haunted

506
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: the people in Watcom County for years, you know, nearly

507
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: thirty years at that point. This isn't twenty seventeen, and

508
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: it was. It was devastating, and Kim was someone who

509
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: still thought about it every day, and so when she

510
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: saw the opportunity to do something positive that could potentially

511
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: end this, and she mentioned this several times to me,

512
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: but in this torture for Mandy's family, she didn't hesitate.

513
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: She wanted to do it immediately, which is actually very brave.

514
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: And isn't it true, Joanna Small k R O sevent

515
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: TV that detectives have been following Bass around but they

516
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 1: couldn't get his DNA. They've been following him, I mean,

517
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: we have heard of DNA being obtained off a piece

518
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: of pizza, believe it or not. In the mansion murder

519
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: trial up in the DC area, the whole family is

520
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: murdered by a guy who comes to the door pretending

521
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: to deliver pizza. Inside the scene, they find a half

522
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: eating pizza and they take DNA off the pizza crust

523
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: and they catch the killer. So isn't it true, Joanna's Small?

524
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: They've been following Tim Bass around and all they've got

525
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: so far at this point is he's a neighbor. He

526
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 1: refuses to give a DNA sample others think he has

527
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: very odd and peculiar behavior and claims he didn't know Mandy,

528
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: which obviously he does, so they start following him. That's

529
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: totally legal they had. Isn't it true he would take

530
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: out his trash and get rid of it. I mean,

531
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: they couldn't catch him in anything. Joanna Kim was a

532
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: fairly He kind of did the same thing every day. Therefore,

533
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't stopping at restaurant. He wasn't really

534
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: deviating from his routine. It was mostly work and home,

535
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: and they didn't have access to his work vehicle where

536
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: he spent the majority of his time. And so absolutely yeah,

537
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: they were following him around. They were attempting to catch

538
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: him in I don't know, I would call it like

539
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: a slip, just it's something different. And to no Avail,

540
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: that really wasn't happen. And to make it even more difficult,

541
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: we learned that he would pack up his trash in

542
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: burn it. He never left DNA out like on a

543
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: soda bottle or a plastic four. It just didn't happen.

544
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: To George Skiro joining me, DNA expert with Scales Biological Laboratory, George,

545
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: how do you get DNA off. For instance, a plastic cup,

546
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: well you get some dnaf a plastic cup is relatively simple.

547
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: You just take a swab, a sterile swab, cotton swab,

548
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: just like a Q tip, moisten it with some the

549
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: still water swab the area in the mouth area. Take

550
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: that lended air dry package. It sent it away to

551
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: be analyzed. It's that simple, that simple. You know, we

552
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: hear of stories like this, but in this case it's true.

553
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: A coworker decides to help out, doesn't really even know

554
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: Mandy Stavock, and she gets the DNA. Timothy Forrest Bass

555
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: Deputies forward DNA samples from mister Bass to the Washington

556
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: State Crime Laboratory, who reported to us that as DNA

557
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: matched the DNA recovered from Mandy's body. You are hearing

558
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: what can County share of Bill elfo announced your first

559
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: degree kidnapping, murder, and rate charges on Tim Bass. But

560
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: isn't it true Joe at a small he claimed they

561
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: had a consensual sex relationship. Yeah, that was the basis

562
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: entirely for Tim for how Tim try to explain things.

563
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: The case goes to trial and then this we the

564
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: jury find the defendant Timothy Forrest Bass guilty of the

565
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: crime of murder in the first degree as charged in

566
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: count one. The sentence was three hundred and tw twenty months.

567
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: That's almost twenty seven years. Why not there was not

568
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: an aggravated count of murder in this particular case. There

569
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: wasn't a murder weapon identified, as someone else from the

570
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: panel had mentioned she had a deep bruise on the

571
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: top of her head and they said the birdie in

572
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: the autopsy the corner and said the bruise could have

573
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: potentially caused unconsciousness. But there was never any kind of

574
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: weapon identified, so it wasn't an aggravated murder charge. And ironically,

575
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: or maybe sadly, he will send less time in prison

576
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: than the number of years it took to find him

577
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: as a killer. Wait a minute, are you telling me

578
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: that the fact that she was raped does not aggravate

579
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: the murder. They actually, because of they couldn't technically charge

580
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: him with rape statute of limitations, so they had officially

581
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: dropped that charge, and he was found guilty of first

582
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: degree murder, So he was not convicted on right. He

583
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: was not convicted on rape. But as everybody described the crime,

584
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: and even from the prosecutor's office. It was considered a

585
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: rape and murder, but he wasn't convicted on a separate

586
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: rape charge. So because they couldn't identify a weapon and

587
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: they rape statutorially could not be prosecuted because of the

588
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: statute delimitations. It was a flat out murder, not an

589
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: aggravated murder, and therefore he did not get a lot.

590
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: If he got three hundred and twenty months about twenty

591
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: seventy years, there's an aggravated murder statute in the state

592
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: of Washington, and that elevates things, and so it was

593
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to say it was disappointing because they knew,

594
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: the family knew going into this about the maximum sense

595
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: he could receive, so they were prepared and so the

596
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: case went unsolved as long as the sentence and he

597
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: is set to walk free potentially in twenty thirty six.

598
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: That's just in sixteen years. Question, Joeanna Small, how did

599
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: Tim Bass hide in playing side all these years? So

600
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: Tim immediately left the community, as you mentioned, he got

601
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: married to his fiance. Justice delayed, but not denied. Nancy

602
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: Grace Crimes Tory signing off goodbye friend,