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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if.

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Speaker 2: You've had experience with manipulation or abusive power that you'd

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Speaker 2: like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust for trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 5: I've never lived.

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Speaker 1: To you, never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two sleuths who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I'm low Lablanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today our guest is Charlotte Laws, author and anti

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Speaker 2: revenge porn activist, whom you may have seen in the

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Speaker 2: recent Netflix documentary The Most Hated Man on the Internet.

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Speaker 2: And she is awesome. I'm so excited that we got

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Speaker 2: to talk to her.

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Speaker 1: Do you agree? She looked like not of this world.

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Speaker 1: She's it's like a shimmering goddess of goa of good.

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah. She could be my cult leader for sure.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 2: She's gorgeous, she is fierce, she stands up for people.

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Speaker 2: All right. She's gonna tell us about how her daughter

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Speaker 2: Kayla's photos were stolen and put up on a revenge

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Speaker 2: porn website called is Anyone Up dot com? Who the

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Speaker 2: infamous founder, Hunter Moore is, and how he refused to

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Speaker 2: take down his victim's photos when asked, even when many

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Speaker 2: of those photos were hacked from their emails.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us the story of how his following became

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Speaker 1: cult like and scary, how she finally got Kayla's photos removed,

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Speaker 1: but had talked to so many victims of the site

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Speaker 1: that she wasn't done with Hunter more, and how she

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Speaker 1: contributed to finally taking him down.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, all right, Megan, before we talk to Charlotte's

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Speaker 2: h tell me what your cultiest thing is this week?

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Speaker 1: Okay, sure. So there's a new podcast out. It is

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Speaker 1: called Cause.

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Speaker 3: I'm probably saying it wrong, Koz. Whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's about the Bagos. They're a biker gang in La.

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Speaker 1: This undercover investigator joined them. He got into running drugs

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Speaker 1: with them, running weapons with them, riding a motorcycle with them,

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Speaker 1: of course, and all of these very interesting illegal things.

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Speaker 3: He was very scared.

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Speaker 1: He was very intrigued also, But he said what really

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Speaker 1: was interesting to him, and this article that I read

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Speaker 1: is that he became kind of proud. Well, he was surprised,

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Speaker 1: he said, by the belonging that he felt in the group,

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Speaker 1: which just goes to show that you can know a

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Speaker 1: group is bad and even be investigating them and almost

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Speaker 1: fall prey to that belongingness that they supply.

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Speaker 2: I bet you that happens all the time. Like when

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Speaker 2: once you're immersed in the world, I can imagine it

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Speaker 2: would just be really difficult to not feel a sense

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Speaker 2: of camaraderie with people and totally you know, like still

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Speaker 2: want their approval like a little bit, even when you

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Speaker 2: know the criminals or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they even found a skull like a

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Speaker 1: human school with hair and sit still attached to it

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Speaker 1: like bad people. I don't know, but probably in a

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Speaker 1: Duffel bag if I had to guess, or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Ahead in a duffel bag, folks here, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, maybe that's where i'd put it.

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Speaker 6: I want to listen to that. That sounds super interesting.

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Speaker 3: What about you, what's the coldest thing that happened to you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I just got back from a film festival. So

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Speaker 2: I am brain dead at this festival called Fantastic Fest,

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Speaker 2: which is a happy cult of its own.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: But today I'm going to talk about scientology because an

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Speaker 2: article that you sent me I found so very fascinating.

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Speaker 2: It's to do with this new book that has come

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Speaker 2: out by a former high ranking officer in scientology. His

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Speaker 2: name is Mike Rinder, and the book is called A

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Speaker 2: Billion Years, My Escape from a Life in the highest

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Speaker 2: ranks of Scientology.

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Speaker 6: So apparently they hacked Nicole Kidman's phones.

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Speaker 2: Scientologists did because Tom Cruise, who was obviously like the

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Speaker 2: face of Scientology, apparently he began to ignore the David

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Speaker 2: Misscavage is the head of Scientology, the one who's like

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Speaker 2: ordered all of the like crazy stalking and harassing and

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Speaker 2: just all the bad stuff.

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Speaker 3: The one whose wife is missing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all the bad stuff is from this guy. So

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Speaker 2: apparently Tom Cruise starts to ignore his calls while he

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Speaker 2: and Nicole Kimmen are filming Eyes White Shut, and so

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Speaker 2: it like freaked David Misscavage out, and he got suspicious

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Speaker 2: of Nicole Kimmen because she apparently had not seemed like

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Speaker 2: super stoked on scientology and he got so scared, according

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Speaker 2: to this guy, that he was losing control of Tom Cruise.

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Speaker 2: That the claim is he ordered Nicole Kimmin's phone to

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Speaker 2: be tapped, which I'm sure is true, and also allegedly

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Speaker 2: appointed this other high ranking official to get them to

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Speaker 2: break up and audit Tom Cruise so he would become

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Speaker 2: this is the pun that the Daily Mail uses, he

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Speaker 2: would become clear about the importance of scientology.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that was good.

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Speaker 2: And they also said that he hired like a an

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Speaker 2: infamous PI who's like gone to jail for all these

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Speaker 2: different charges to spy on Nicole Kimmen and tap her phone,

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Speaker 2: so that it goes to show like how much a

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Speaker 2: connection with somebody on the outside can really be the

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Speaker 2: thing that like loosens the grip of a cult. And

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Speaker 2: when they sense that, of course they're going to say

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Speaker 2: that they're a suppressive person. And Lee Remenie has said

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Speaker 2: that Nicole Kimmen was like considered a suppressive person when

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Speaker 2: she was in scientology because she was like taking Tom

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Speaker 2: Cruise away and he was like not as excited about

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Speaker 2: it when they were together, which is such a fucking bummer.

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Speaker 2: But they successfully got their claws back into him and

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Speaker 2: they got divorced, and apparently Nicole Kidman's relationship with her

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Speaker 2: children is now or after that was you know, fraught

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Speaker 2: because they got deeper into scientology because everyone was kind

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Speaker 2: of working on them, and she was like this is

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Speaker 2: this is this, ain't my shit?

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Speaker 6: So on for so it's super sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's super sad and scary that they were just

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Speaker 2: willing to do like anything to just have control over people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I assume things like that are still going on,

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Speaker 2: but there's so much more awareness about it now. So

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Speaker 2: who knows that's my shit, that's my that's mine of

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Speaker 2: the week.

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Speaker 3: Well, shall we talk to Charlotte. Let's do it?

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Speaker 2: Okay, welcome Charlotte Laws to trust me.

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Speaker 6: Thanks for having me, Thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 2: I was just watching you on the Most Hated Man

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Speaker 2: on the Internet yesterday, and I think.

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Speaker 6: I speak for both of us when I say we

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Speaker 6: are obsessed.

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Speaker 7: With you, so not alone and that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so much to get into before we dive

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Speaker 2: into the story about as anyone up specifically, I would

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Speaker 2: just love to hear a little bit more about your background,

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Speaker 2: because you are.

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Speaker 6: You have such an interesting history.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you've written books, you were known for your

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Speaker 2: skills of getting into.

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Speaker 6: The Hollywood parties. There's Satanism in your family.

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Speaker 2: History's start with the Satanism.

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Speaker 6: Where's the satanism coming from?

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Speaker 5: Well, I was adopted, so I was raised by an

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Speaker 5: adoptive family. But I tracked down my birth family and

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Speaker 5: it turned out my grandfather, who was an Italian man

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Speaker 5: who had come over when he was like four years

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Speaker 5: old with his family to West Virginia. He was working

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Speaker 5: as an attorney, and it was very hard because there

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Speaker 5: was a lot of prejudice against Italians back in the

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Speaker 5: nineteen thirties and forties. So he was kicked out of

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Speaker 5: two law offices, and he was kicked out of his

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Speaker 5: house because the ccnrs for the house said no Italians,

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Speaker 5: no blacks. You know, there was a long line of

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Speaker 5: individuals who were not allowed in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 8: So we had to move out.

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Speaker 5: And then it was shortly thereafter that a devil worshiper

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Speaker 5: who lived really close in town, like on the next

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Speaker 5: block over, came to his office and shot him, killed him.

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Speaker 5: Also killed his own wife, not my grandfather's wife, but

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Speaker 5: the devil worshiper's wife because that.

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Speaker 8: Was his client.

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Speaker 5: They were getting a divorce, and then the devil worshiper

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Speaker 5: shot himself and had already set two bombs to go

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Speaker 5: off in the town, and they went off later. So

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Speaker 5: it was kind of like a shocking situation for this

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Speaker 5: small town in West Virginia, and it made newspapers all

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Speaker 5: over the country. So I wrote a book about it

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Speaker 5: called Devil in the Basement and about my whole Italian family.

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Speaker 5: And you know, my great aunt was dating a mobster

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Speaker 5: from Detroit, Billy Jack Jackaloney and so, and he was.

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Speaker 8: He's credited by amazing name, and he was.

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Speaker 5: He's credited by the FBI as the person who probably

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Speaker 5: killed Jimmy Hoffa and he actually made references to that

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Speaker 5: when he was still alive. So so it's actually a

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Speaker 5: really cool story.

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Speaker 8: It's kind of amazing. Wow.

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Speaker 6: So your your grandfather was a lawyer, Is that what

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Speaker 6: you said?

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Speaker 5: He was a lawyer and he was going to run

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Speaker 5: for congres before he was killed. That's what That's what

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Speaker 5: the plan was.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, So tracking people down runs in your blood a

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Speaker 2: little bit.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it does, amazing.

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Speaker 2: And then you've written books about your experiences like just

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Speaker 2: tell us.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, the party crashing. Yeah, is that what you would

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Speaker 7: call it?

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Speaker 3: Party crushing?

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Speaker 8: I guess yeah.

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Speaker 5: I kind of started doing when I was very young,

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Speaker 5: when I was like seventeen eighteen, and it was kind

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Speaker 5: of fun at that time. My friends are going out

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Speaker 5: to the bar or going bowling, and I'd be like, no,

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Speaker 5: I'd rather hang out with the president or Michael Jackson

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Speaker 5: or Leiah Pokot to be that a lot more interesting.

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Speaker 5: I was a seventeen eighteen year older. But as I

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Speaker 5: get older, I realized that there were a lot of

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Speaker 5: benefits to party crashing. For example, you might want to

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Speaker 5: lobby for legislation and they have these fundraisers.

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Speaker 8: It could be one hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 5: Per person, and you might want to have FaceTime with

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Speaker 5: the president or a senator, and an ordinary person can't

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Speaker 5: get that access.

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Speaker 8: Only rich people do.

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Speaker 5: So I realized I could actually crash these events and

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Speaker 5: have discussion about things that I thought were important and

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Speaker 5: what Maybe you want to also get celebrities or wealthy

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Speaker 5: people to sign on to charities, or maybe you want to,

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Speaker 5: you know, make them your business partner or you know whatever.

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Speaker 5: It might be your real estate client or you know.

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Speaker 5: So there were a lot of benefits to it, or

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Speaker 5: you might want to interview celebrities. It's a lot easier

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Speaker 5: if you go to an awards show and you just

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Speaker 5: literally go from person to person asking questions and everybody,

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Speaker 5: everybody always says yes, as opposed to calling a publicist

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Speaker 5: and like trying to write set up which to take weeks,

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Speaker 5: you know, to get an interview set up.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's such a sneaky way to get legislative changed

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Speaker 2: to happen.

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Speaker 6: I love that, and like, take notes. I want to

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Speaker 6: read this book now.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I'm always like this law needs a change,

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Speaker 2: and I have no idea how to do it. And

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Speaker 2: I have no idea what are swear to start? Because

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Speaker 2: I do not know enough rich and powerful people.

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Speaker 7: This is the trick.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it turns out amazing.

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Speaker 2: So basically, like you have spent your life like figuring

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Speaker 2: out how to do the things that you set your

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Speaker 2: mind to. And that brings us to this particular story.

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Speaker 6: Let's fast forward to.

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Speaker 8: It was twenty twelve when it started.

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Speaker 2: Twenty twelve.

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Speaker 8: Twenty twelve is when.

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Speaker 5: My daughter was hacked and when her topless picture went

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Speaker 5: up on the website.

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Speaker 2: Got it?

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Speaker 3: Got it?

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Speaker 6: So you're a mother.

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Speaker 2: Now, your daughter is Kayla. How old was Kayla at

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Speaker 2: this time? She was twenty four, And what's your relationship like,

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Speaker 2: or at least in this time, what was it like.

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Speaker 8: We've always been really close.

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Speaker 5: I was a single mom, so you know, I raised

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Speaker 5: her as a single mom, and I got married when

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Speaker 5: she was about maybe twelve or thirteen years old, so

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Speaker 5: it had just been the two of us and a

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Speaker 5: bunch of dogs, and those were her brothers and sisters

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Speaker 5: and that was it. So we had a very close

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Speaker 5: relationship all those years, and kind of like sisters is

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Speaker 5: probably what she would say.

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Speaker 8: You know, I have that kind of a feel to it.

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Speaker 2: You too, remind me so much of me and my

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Speaker 2: mom in so many ways. My mom is my best friend.

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Speaker 2: She was a single mom. We were so close, and

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Speaker 2: I felt safe enough to tell my mom stuff similar

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Speaker 2: to what Kayla told you, because I feel like a

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Speaker 2: lot of daughters don't have that relationship with their mom

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Speaker 2: where they would want they would admit.

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Speaker 1: That if my photo was somewhere, the last person I

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Speaker 1: would tell is my mother. Yeah, you know, and that's unfortunate,

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Speaker 1: But thank god that you guys have that relationship, because.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because everything that we're about to say, Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: can you tell us how you first found out about

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Speaker 2: is anyone up dot com?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, my daughter was working as a waitress at a

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Speaker 5: restaurant and that's when she got a call from one

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Speaker 5: of her friends saying that she was on the website

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Speaker 5: and she was absolutely in distress and felt violated and humiliated.

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Speaker 5: And she immediately called me and told me about it.

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Speaker 5: And I had never heard of revenge Born until that day,

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Speaker 5: and I'd certainly never heard of that website. And I

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Speaker 5: logged on and I checked it, and I was absolutely

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Speaker 5: horrified to see, you know, the content, and see what

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Speaker 5: they were doing and the comments which were it's very

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Speaker 5: mean spirited. It wasn't about pornography. It was about ruining lives.

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Speaker 5: The owner called himself a professional life life ruiner. The

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Speaker 5: website was called pure evil and people would literally just attack,

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Speaker 5: you know, the victims up there on the site, and

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Speaker 5: you know, look at every little thing and call them

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Speaker 5: fat whales and say go kill yourself. And it was

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Speaker 5: really just a lot of really horrible stuff. And I

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Speaker 5: knew that I needed to get my daughter's picture down

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Speaker 5: immediately because I knew that it would proliferate in cyberspace,

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Speaker 5: and it's on one site today, but in a week

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Speaker 5: it could be on fifty sites. And that's how the

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Speaker 5: Internet works. And so I just kind of, you know,

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Speaker 5: started getting into it. And I used to be a

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Speaker 5: private detective and I've always had that kind of personality anyway,

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Speaker 5: as you know, amazing, So I just, you know, I

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Speaker 5: got to it, and that's what happened.

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Speaker 2: So I want to talk a little bit about as

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Speaker 2: anyone up dot com because I didn't.

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Speaker 6: Know about this website. I think I.

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Speaker 2: Knew, I like vaguely knew a website like this existed.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know this specific url, and I didn't know

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Speaker 2: the extent.

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Speaker 6: To which it reached.

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Speaker 2: My impression of it now is like the most trolling,

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Speaker 2: like mean spirited version of like a Reddit or something.

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Speaker 2: People would post nude photos of other people, but then

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Speaker 2: they would also do kind of anything extreme that they

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Speaker 2: could think of to just like get attention on this website,

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Speaker 2: which was very much a part of this like sort

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Speaker 2: of alternative see like culture. This under it seemed like

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Speaker 2: it was a branch off of the like emo scene

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Speaker 2: in the early two thousands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was like if you wanted the attention,

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Speaker 1: then he wouldn't post you. It seemed like you had

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Speaker 1: to do something so crazy like attle girl.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, that is a.

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Speaker 6: Whole I don't even know how.

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Speaker 7: Sorry, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't even know how to get into that story here.

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Speaker 2: But what they would do is they would post photos,

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Speaker 2: nude photos of people and then link to their Facebook

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Speaker 2: pages with actual.

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Speaker 6: Information, which is so next level.

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Speaker 2: While yeah, like completely violating and an appropriate just like

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Speaker 2: in today's world. It's so shocking, but I think at

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Speaker 2: the time it was like funny.

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Speaker 1: Well, That's what was shocking to me is that there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of comments in the documentary and stuff where

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Speaker 1: I'm like, people haven't gone back. Even tweets that I'm

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Speaker 1: shocked are still up, Like people haven't.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, they're not embarrassed.

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Speaker 7: Why are people humiliated that they supported this right?

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Speaker 5: And a lot of people have contacted me and apologized,

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Speaker 5: I I'm following this guy and but yeah, so it

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Speaker 5: is interesting that they didn't.

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Speaker 8: Delete the tweets, because you would think they correct.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was one of the things I told

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Speaker 1: old I was most excited to ask you as anyone

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Speaker 1: apologized or people mortified because he was the sort of

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Speaker 1: cult leader of the most proportions of just like I'm

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Speaker 1: the most horrible person alive, and some how people liked that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, well let's get into who he was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The second just a quick quote that I found on

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Speaker 2: an article about the followers of this website, or the

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Speaker 2: people who'd post on this website. Some lit their genitals

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Speaker 2: on fire or stuck firecrackers up their anus. Others took

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Speaker 2: videos of themselves urinating and defecating, sometimes in the comfort

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Speaker 2: of their bathrooms and sometimes out in public spaces. Members

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Speaker 2: willingly filmed themselves punching strangers, attacking innocent bystanderds, and harming themselves.

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Speaker 2: And this is all in addition to posting photos of

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Speaker 2: other people nude and.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely humiliating them and trying to.

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Speaker 2: Just say that the worst things that they could possibly

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Speaker 2: say about them. So this is a horrible This is

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Speaker 2: the worst part of the Internet.

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Speaker 7: These are followers, yes, and they're wild.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he he is Hunter More? So can you

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Speaker 2: tell us you're just like impression of Hunter more and

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Speaker 2: who he was when you first learned about him?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean he was somebody who enjoyed the attention.

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Speaker 5: He had six hundred thousand followers on Twitter, had I

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Speaker 5: believe thirty million page views per month or something. He

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Speaker 5: was getting a lot of attention by the media, and

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Speaker 5: they were doing full profiles on him. They were giving

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Speaker 5: him big headlines, big photos, and they were glorifying him,

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Speaker 5: and people back then thought that he was really cool

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Speaker 5: and oh, this is a new business model. And the

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Speaker 5: victims were being victim blamed and they were sluts, and

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Speaker 5: they it was their own fault that they had taken

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Speaker 5: the picture, and that was society's view, that was law

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Speaker 5: enforcement's view, that was the politician's view, and that was

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Speaker 5: the media's view overall. So that's why it was such

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Speaker 5: an uphill battle, because he was basking in the attention

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Speaker 5: and we were being attacked by pretty much everybody. And

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Speaker 5: the victims were afraid to come forward because partly they

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Speaker 5: were blaming themselves also because that was kind of the

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Speaker 5: masochism that was going on.

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Speaker 8: Is my fault, and that's how.

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Speaker 5: They were feeling, and also they didn't want it to

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Speaker 5: get worse for themselves.

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Speaker 8: People were afraid of him, and.

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Speaker 5: They didn't really have they to come forward, most of

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Speaker 5: them because they were just too freaked out. I mean,

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Speaker 5: they just wanted to hide in their room, shut down

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Speaker 5: all their media and not talk to anybody, just have

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Speaker 5: no contact with the world. And so you know, he

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Speaker 5: had this perfect thing going. He thought, where, Oh, they're

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Speaker 5: not going to want to contend with me, They're not

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Speaker 5: going to battle me, and I can keep abusing people

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Speaker 5: and getting money off of it and getting attention.

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Speaker 8: Off of it.

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Speaker 5: And you know, even to this day, he hasn't apologized.

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Speaker 5: He says the only thing he wishes he'd done differently

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Speaker 5: is jacked it up ten times harder.

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Speaker 8: Those were his work. God, he's on TikTok.

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Speaker 5: He's on there's some other website he's on. He has

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Speaker 5: been banned from Facebook. He was on Twitter, but a

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Speaker 5: lot of people reported him and somehow they removed his page.

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Speaker 5: So I don't know if it's going to if he's

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Speaker 5: going to be allowed back on Twitter. And I don't

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Speaker 5: know if he's on Instagram, but I know he's on

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Speaker 5: TikTok and on some other website and he's started to

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Speaker 5: gain followers.

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Speaker 8: Unfortunately.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he had he had kind of a call, like

404
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Speaker 5: a Charles Manson call. It was called the Family. He

405
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Speaker 5: called himself the father and you know, these were his

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Speaker 5: children and that was the language they used. I would

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Speaker 5: do anything for you father. I will kill for you father.

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Speaker 5: That was some of the comments that were posted on

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Speaker 5: his side.

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Speaker 2: And to paint a picture of who he kind of

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Speaker 2: comes how he kind of comes off in all the

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Speaker 2: video footage of him. He's like a cute guy, very tattooed,

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Speaker 2: he looks like he.

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Speaker 6: Would be in a band.

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Speaker 2: And then he has this like smarmy, smirking douchiness about him,

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Speaker 2: like major douche factor.

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Speaker 6: But the confidence, and I.

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Speaker 2: Suspect it's due to the level of sociopathy that he possesses,

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Speaker 2: but the confidence that he exudes, like I do see

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Speaker 2: like if I were a young person in that era,

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Speaker 2: Like I don't think I would. I don't think I

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Speaker 2: would be into what he was doing. But I think

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Speaker 2: he as a person I would find to be very charismatic.

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Speaker 2: Just the sheer confidence and the sheer like he just

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Speaker 2: says whatever you want and he doesn't give a fuck,

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Speaker 2: and you know, and he's really just doubled down, tripled down,

427
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 2: quadrupled down on that every opportunity, which is a fascinating

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Speaker 2: to observe because it's it's almost like a Trump thing

429
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Speaker 2: or like it's like, oh, he doesn't give he doesn't

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Speaker 2: care what anyone.

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Speaker 6: Thinks of him, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Hey, women, that is for sure, for sure, he's his

433
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Speaker 2: whole thing is about shocking people. Was it you or

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Speaker 2: Kayla who reached out or both about first taking her

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Speaker 2: photo down?

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Speaker 5: We sent an email, the two of us sent an email,

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Speaker 5: but we put her name on it, so we kind

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Speaker 5: of put an email together and asked.

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Speaker 8: Him to remove the photo. And that didn't work.

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Speaker 5: I didn't think it was going to work because other

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Speaker 5: people had posted that they had tried that and failed.

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Speaker 5: So he didn't remove content, is what everybody said.

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Speaker 2: He would respond to some people just saying lol when

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Speaker 2: they told him how much it was hurting them and

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Speaker 2: women in their lives. Yeah, and like, and he would

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Speaker 2: go on these interviews and they'd be like, don't you

447
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 2: care that you're hurting people?

448
00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 6: And they'd be like, I don't know.

449
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 2: Them, they're just avatars to me, Like I don't it

450
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 2: doesn't matter to me. They shouldn't have done they shouldn't

451
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 2: have put the picture up or whatever. And that's the

452
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 2: key point too, is like, aside from it there being

453
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 2: absolutely nothing wrong with posts, with taking a nud photo,

454
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 2: sending a nude photo like it doesn't mean that anyone

455
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,959
Speaker 2: should get to see it who you did not explicitly

456
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 2: give permission.

457
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 7: To see it.

458
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 2: But regardless of that, he is presenting it as though

459
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 2: people are sending all of their nudes, and that is

460
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 2: the key thing here. Can you tell us about how

461
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 2: Cayla didn't actually send it to anyone?

462
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, she took the She took a bunch of photos

463
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 5: in her room, over one hundred pictures.

464
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 8: One was topless.

465
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 5: They were all like little cutesy shots, and she ran

466
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 5: out of space on her phone, so she sent them

467
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 5: to her email to save them. And then it was

468
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 5: after that where her email was hacked, along with her

469
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 5: social media being hacked. And then it was you know,

470
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 5: several days later when her topless picture, along with some

471
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 5: clothes pictures of her, and her link to social media

472
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 5: or her name, her city, everything came up on that

473
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 5: way website.

474
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: Right, So this isn't even like a jilted ex boyfriend

475
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: posting because they hate their girlfriend, Like, this is literally

476
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 2: stolen photos packed yeah, yeah, emails, Yeah, and I mean

477
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 2: not all of them, but certainly a lot of them.

478
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 6: So you started reaching out to some of his other victims.

479
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 2: Can you talk to us a little bit about that process.

480
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, my daughter noticed that one of her friends was

481
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 5: also on the site, and so my daughter contacted this

482
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 5: girl and she said she had also been hacked. And

483
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 5: so what I did is I thought, well, this is

484
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 5: kind of unusual because I've only just heard about revenge porn.

485
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 5: I only know two people on the side, and they

486
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,479
Speaker 5: were both hacked. So I assumed there could be a

487
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 5: hacking scheme. So I decided to do my own little

488
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 5: survey and I contacted forty victims who were posted within

489
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 5: the two week period of my daughter, which was very

490
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 5: hard contacting them because I didn't want to use email

491
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 5: or social media because I thought there could be a

492
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 5: hacker on there. So it was extremely round about and

493
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 5: I had to get their name and their city, and

494
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 5: then sometimes call like somebody who I thought was a

495
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 5: relative and say, do you know this person they had

496
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 5: the same last name, and please have her call me.

497
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,959
Speaker 5: It was very difficult, and after I spoke to all

498
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 5: of these people, I found out that forty percent of

499
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 5: the forty said they were hacked, So I definitely felt

500
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 5: there was this hacking scheme, and my file grew to

501
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 5: about twelve inches of data on Hunter in his site

502
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 5: in the meantime, I was contacting everybody associated that I

503
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 5: could think of to try to get it down from

504
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 5: his publicist, his attorney. I even tried to call his

505
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 5: mom and I called her former workplace.

506
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 8: She wasn't working there anymore, unfortunately.

507
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 5: But I talked to many of her associates and it

508
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 5: got back to Hunter who posted on Twitter, haaha, somebody

509
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 5: just called my mom's former workplace.

510
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 8: So I knew he knew about.

511
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 5: It, and so I was kind of going at every angle,

512
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 5: and we also went to law enforcement. I went to

513
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 5: Los Angeles Police Department and then I tacked at the FBI.

514
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 6: And the LPED didn't do anything right.

515
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, they did the victim blaming. That's all they did essentially.

516
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 5: And they said to my daughter, why would you take

517
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 5: a picture like this if you didn't want it on

518
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 5: the internet. That was the It was a female, middle

519
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 5: aged female detective who said that, wow. And so you know,

520
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 5: so I called the FBI and they initially said, just

521
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 5: file a report online, and I sarcastically said, oh, I

522
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 5: see you help Scarlett Johansson when she gets hacked.

523
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 8: Don't cop the average person.

524
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 5: And the operator's side, and then said I'll transfer you

525
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 5: to a detective, so I got transferred and then they

526
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 5: said there would be agents coming to my house later

527
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 5: in the month, and they did that.

528
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 8: There were three agents who showed up, and when.

529
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 5: They came, they said there was a very slim chance

530
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 5: they'd be able to take the case because they normally

531
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 5: only take cases where they are large losses of money,

532
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 5: and there wasn't a lot of money.

533
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 8: Lost on this particular case.

534
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 5: And they said also, even if we did take the case,

535
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 5: it takes over a year for us to investigate, so it's.

536
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 8: A very long process.

537
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 5: But luckily I had this file of all these hacked victims,

538
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 5: so I was able to hand it to them, and

539
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 5: hopefully that helped them because they gave them a running

540
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 5: start because and we knew some of them had definitely

541
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 5: been hacked by the same hacker because he had left

542
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 5: this email behind on their social media. So anyway, so

543
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 5: they had, you know, contact information for a bunch of

544
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 5: different victims. And luckily they did take the case, and

545
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 5: they ended up coming to my house three times, and

546
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 5: the final time was a victims meeting. So I've got

547
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 5: some of the victims to come to meet with the FBI,

548
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 5: and we had other victims who were kind of available

549
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 5: by phone.

550
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 8: So that's kind of how it started.

551
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 4: Wow.

552
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: So to the person who would say it's just a

553
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: nude photo, who cares? Can you explain what some of

554
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: the consequences are of revenge porn?

555
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 8: I mean it can.

556
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 5: I mean ninety three percent of victims say that it

557
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 5: causes severe emotional distress for them. Fifty percent contemplates suicide.

558
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 5: There have been people who have killed themselves over revenge porn.

559
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 5: Eighty percent of employers will check the internet to see

560
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 5: if there's negative content about a potential employee before hiring them.

561
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 5: So it can you know, it can affect your career,

562
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 5: It can affect your relationships, it can affect your entire life.

563
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 5: When there were two girls who killed themselves, one was

564
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 5: from Northern California, Audrey Potts, and the other was named

565
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 5: Red of Parsons from Canada, and I spoke to both

566
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 5: of their parents and both of these girls had had

567
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 5: a similar experience where they were sexually assaulted, you know,

568
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 5: raped by multiple men, and then there were photos taken

569
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 5: and after the rapes happened, it was horrible, it was devastating,

570
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 5: but they were going on with their lives until the

571
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 5: photos surfaced, and when the photos surfaced, both girls killed themselves.

572
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 8: And you know, the parents said.

573
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 5: To me that for their children, revenge porn was worse

574
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 5: than rape, because the thing about the photos is you

575
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 5: just can't hide it. It's there forever, it can follow you.

576
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 5: The Internet is everywhere, it's forever, and you feel like

577
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 5: your life is over, whereas rape is horrible, horrible, but

578
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 5: you can never tell anybody about it. You can try

579
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 5: to compartmentalize, you can try to like, you know, put

580
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 5: it out of your head.

581
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 8: You cannot tell you know, your family and friends.

582
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 7: And you can try strategies at least.

583
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and you know, my mom's whole dissertation actually

584
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: not to keep talking about my.

585
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 6: Mom, but whatever, I'm a super fan.

586
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: My mom's hold dissertation for her PhD is on media

587
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 2: misrepresentation and how when there's an image of you that's

588
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: out there that is not consistent with how you view yourself,

589
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: that is one of the most emotionally damaging things that

590
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: can happen to you for so many different reasons. And

591
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: she gets into the whole thing. But like, public humiliation

592
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: is more painful than.

593
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 6: We realize that it is, and it often does.

594
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: Induce suicidal ideations in people, because you have to contend

595
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 2: with how everyone in the world is seeing you as

596
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: this thing that you are not and it's just like

597
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: extremely painful and and and that's separate from how like.

598
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 6: You can get fired from your job.

599
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: People got fired from their jobs.

600
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 6: You can get like stocked and harassed.

601
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 2: You know, there's so many different layers of why this

602
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: is not just yeah yeah.

603
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 5: My daughter was getting phone calls from strange men after

604
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 5: this happened to her, and one of the people who

605
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 5: called her was the porn star Ron Jeremy. Oh my god,

606
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 5: he wanted to talk business, that's what he said.

607
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 8: No, and he said he was yeah.

608
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 5: And he said he was there with Howard Stern and

609
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 5: they were at the porn convention in Las Vegas.

610
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 8: So I don't know if that's if he.

611
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 5: Really was with Howard Stern, but that's what he told

612
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 5: my daughter and she just hung up on him.

613
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: But gosh, this is I mean, and I think it

614
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: also just opens up that whole cult of trolling where

615
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: people who would never usually say something like this or

616
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: suddenly emboldened to be like you sat kill yourself and

617
00:28:58,720 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: you're like what.

618
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, cyberbulling. Oh yeah, but it all.

619
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: Just feeds off of the other people doing it too.

620
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: It's not it's so weird. I don't think it's most

621
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: people's real opinions.

622
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 6: It's not.

623
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: I mean, group think on the Internet is such a

624
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: fascinating and terrifying phenomenon.

625
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 6: We've talked about this a million times.

626
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: Obviously, but so tell us how Kayla's photo first gets removed.

627
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 5: Well, the first week I tried to get it down. Actually,

628
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 5: initially I tried to get my husband involved, and he

629
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 5: originally didn't want to be involved, and he's an attorney.

630
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 5: And I first got it, I thought it was down.

631
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 5: It actually was down for like I don't know, maybe

632
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 5: ten minutes. I contacted Hunter Security Company, their internet security company,

633
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 5: and I talked to the president and he agreed to

634
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 5: help block her page. But what happened was is he

635
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 5: blocked the page. Hunter made a new page for her.

636
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 5: So that's how malicious he was. It's like he just

637
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 5: wasn't gonna, you know, go along with this. He was

638
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 5: going to do anything he could to keep Caylo's picture

639
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 5: up there. And so after that, my husband had a

640
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 5: talk with Hunter's attorney, who I had had couple conversations

641
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 5: with but I could tell he wasn't taking me seriously.

642
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 5: And my husband was like super pissed off at this

643
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 5: point because it had seriously disrupted our entire household for

644
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 5: a period of time and he just was fed up

645
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 5: with it. So he had a conversation and said, had

646
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 5: better be down at thirty minutes or I'm going into court.

647
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 5: That's it, and the picture did come down. But the

648
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 5: other thing that I didn't mention, which continued on, is

649
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 5: that I was getting harassed by his followers. I was

650
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 5: getting death threats, I was getting computer viruses, and eventually

651
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 5: I even had a stalker at the house. So, and

652
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 5: that was not in the documentary, but there was a

653
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 5: stalker at my house and I have no idea why

654
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 5: they didn't put that in there.

655
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 6: Well, will you tell us about that?

656
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, So what happened was Iskayla had been studying. She

657
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 5: had decided she didn't want to be an actress anymore.

658
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 5: Originally she wanted to be an actress, but because of

659
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 5: all of this happening, she decided she didn't like public attention,

660
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 5: she didn't like being in the limelight, she didn't want.

661
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 8: She wanted a private life.

662
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 5: So she was studying her real estate next to the

663
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 5: front window, and she saw a white car sitting outside

664
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 5: of our house. And we have a very you know

665
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 5: cul de Sac Street. You know, you don't have lots

666
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 5: of cars around. And she didn't tell me about it

667
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 5: till the next day. And I had already been warned

668
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 5: by the computer virus man, you know, the technician who

669
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 5: had told me be leery of cars or vands on

670
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 5: your street because if someone tries to hack into your network,

671
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 5: they're going to need to be near your house. But

672
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 5: I had not told Cayla this. So the next day

673
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 5: she told me, you know, why was there a car

674
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 5: sitting on the street? And I couldn't say she was

675
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 5: paranoid because she didn't know what he had said. And

676
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 5: then it was like the next you know, like that

677
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 5: night again where the white car was back, and she

678
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 5: saw the car again and she said, Mom, that white

679
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 5: car is outside again. And I was like super fed

680
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 5: up at this point, I mean, I had like had it.

681
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 5: So I just marched out there my mom and my

682
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 5: daughter was running behind me, going Mom, what are you

683
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 5: gonna do?

684
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: Mom?

685
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 8: And I went up to the car and I said,

686
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 8: may I help you? And this this young kid.

687
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 5: Like in his twenties, probably with blonde, curly hair, and

688
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 5: he was doing something in his lap and he looks up,

689
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 5: he freaks out, He turns on the car, he zooms away,

690
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 5: almost hitting my neighbor's wall. So clearly he was up

691
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 5: to no good, because if he was not up to

692
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 5: no good, he would say, well, I'm just waiting for

693
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 5: your neighbor, or you know, he wouldn't have freaked out

694
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 5: and run it away. So anyway, that was and I

695
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 5: went out and bought locks for the gates, and we

696
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 5: had metal rods under our beds. You know, we were

697
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 5: you know, we were nervous now because they were targeting,

698
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 5: potentially targeting the house.

699
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: So and this is this is also because I mean

700
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: Hunter kind of pinpointed you as his enemy a little bit, right.

701
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it was totally his enemy, because you know,

702
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 5: at some point he realized, I guess maybe it was

703
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 5: when I did the Doctor Drew show. Was the first

704
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 5: time and I accused him of the hacking. And I

705
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 5: was the first one who came out with all of that,

706
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 5: and he was denying the hacking because he knew he

707
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 5: could go to jail for hacking.

708
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 8: Of course, and so yeah, I.

709
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 5: Became his target and his enemy, and that's why his

710
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 5: followers started coming after me. So if it did get

711
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 5: ratcheted up, and it did become very very scary because

712
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 5: you have all these anonymous people and you don't know

713
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 5: if they're if they have guns, if they have anger issues,

714
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 5: if they just got out of prison, right, you don't know,

715
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 5: and they're coming at you from every direction.

716
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 7: Because they would punch themselves in the face and stuff like.

717
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: He would give people like challenges of who can punch

718
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: themselvesselves in the face the hardest, and they'd all compete

719
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: and film it like these are not rational human beings

720
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: that we're dealing with.

721
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: Well, and the comments that his followers would leave would

722
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: be like kill yourself, die you get read.

723
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 7: I'll kill you.

724
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah yeah.

725
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 5: Another thing that's not in the documentary is I went

726
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 5: under cover to one of his DJ gigs.

727
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 8: He would go around to clubs and dj.

728
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: And so one of the victims wanted to serve a

729
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 5: notice to you know, a legal notice, you know, with paperwork,

730
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 5: and so I was supposed to be a witness to

731
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 5: this because he had been when he had been served

732
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 5: previously by another victim. He had just torn all the

733
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 5: papers in the club and just thrown them in the

734
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 5: air and denied being served at all. So I put

735
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 5: on this white pasty makeup, sunglasses, a black wig, a

736
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 5: beat nick beret of hacking velvet jacket.

737
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 8: I mean, I looked really hideous. And I drove down

738
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 8: to his.

739
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 5: Hi event and it was this huge parking lot with

740
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 5: all these cars. And it was so weird because I

741
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 5: get out of the car, I locked the door. I

742
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 5: turn around and I'm looking at Hunter More. He's standing

743
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 5: there staring at me. He's with three other kids. Thankfully

744
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 5: he did not recognize me in my ridiculous outfit, and

745
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 5: they went. I went to some van and then I

746
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 5: went in and you know, watched his you know, you know,

747
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 5: being a DJ, of which there were very few people there, which.

748
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 8: Really surprised me.

749
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 5: I thought he was suposed to be so popular, right,

750
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 5: and then he did a really stupid thing. The very

751
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 5: beginning he was he was being a DJ off of

752
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 5: his laptop, right, that's where the music was playing. So

753
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 5: the first thing he does is he has his cup

754
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 5: of beer. He throws it straight in the air. It

755
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 5: lands all of his laptop.

756
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: It says the.

757
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 5: Whole evening like fluttering, like it goes off and on,

758
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 5: and yet the music all play was really runny.

759
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 3: The hottest mess that is.

760
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: I love hearing that there was no one there too,

761
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: because it's really presented as though he's going to these parties.

762
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of parties he

763
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: went to where it was like crazy and everyone's obsessed

764
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: with him and he's a god and whatever, But like,

765
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: how much of that is is you know, what's really happening?

766
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: I just want to know what.

767
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 7: Gave you the strength to go up against somebody so powerful.

768
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: I know, the like loving your daughter had a lot

769
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: to do with it, But there has to be traits

770
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 1: that you have that make you capable of.

771
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: Doing well, especially once the photo was taken down.

772
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, to be there for all those other victims

773
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 7: and all of that.

774
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 4: What is that?

775
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 8: Well?

776
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 5: I mean, I've always I've been a cause oriented person

777
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 5: my whole life, and I believe that other centrism are

778
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 5: helping others is the key to happiness, and persistence is

779
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 5: the key to success. And so you know, I started

780
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 5: out as a child fighting for the civil rights movement

781
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 5: to the dismay of my family and community. I was

782
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 5: from upper class Atlanta. I was raised by this adoptive family.

783
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 5: They were very racist, My dad was verbally abusive. My

784
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 5: mom committed suicide, but she didn't die right away. She

785
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 5: ended up being semi conscious for ten years in a

786
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 5: convalescent home. So she had like brain damage and it

787
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 5: was really horrible. And then my brother was killed in

788
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 5: a car accident two years later, so I just wanted

789
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 5: to escape from that. But I was very much taunted

790
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 5: and called an and lover and all that like all

791
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 5: the time by so many people I knew, And so

792
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 5: that was kind of my first cause, and I really

793
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 5: felt that I had a mission to help eradicate prejudice.

794
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 8: That was a big thing to me.

795
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 5: And then later I started working for helping gay rights,

796
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 5: and then animal rights is very close to my heart

797
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 5: because that's speciesism, which is a prejudice against other living

798
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 5: beings besides humans. And then this is women's rights with

799
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 5: revenge porn. So I've kind of always had causes that

800
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 5: are close to my heart, and I really feel that's

801
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 5: important to try to make that impact and try to

802
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 5: make the world better, and it makes me happier to

803
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 5: do that as well. So you know, I saw it

804
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 5: very early on that this was not just about my daughter,

805
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 5: This was not only about even the victims on this site.

806
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 8: This was about the entire issue.

807
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 5: And that legislation needed to be passed, and I was

808
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 5: going to have to meet with legislators that I was

809
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 5: going to have to do what I could to try

810
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 5: to help victims with respect to this particular issue.

811
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 6: Right, because it wasn't illegal then, right.

812
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 5: There were no laws, and so we were actually the

813
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 5: first state to have a full on anti revenge porn law, California.

814
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 5: And it was hard at the beginning. I mean they

815
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 5: didn't want. You know, the legislature in California, we're not

816
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 5: really gung ho on passing something. The ACLU is fighting

817
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 5: us all all the way, and we also have at

818
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 5: the ACLU has been the biggest rival to this from

819
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 5: the beginning, and they still are for a federal law.

820
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 5: So they've been fighting it because they feel that nude

821
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 5: pictures of ordinary people is speech and therefore it should

822
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 5: be allowed.

823
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 6: That is their Are you serious, I'm shocked?

824
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 8: Wow?

825
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 5: And then and the other issue in California was realignment,

826
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 5: which means that the politicians felt there were too many

827
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 5: people in prison and they just didn't want more laws.

828
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 5: They were going to put people in prison, and that's

829
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 5: very similar to what they're going through right now on

830
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 5: a federal level. In addition to the ACLU, there's some

831
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 5: members of the progressive side of the Democratic Party who

832
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 5: are the defund the police mindset. They do not want

833
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 5: more people in prison and they want the emphasis on

834
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 5: getting people out and the cops. So they have a

835
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 5: different point of view and they're the other stumbling block

836
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 5: right now.

837
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 8: So, yeah, there weren't.

838
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 5: Laws, and I actually really the Republicans were the ones

839
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 5: who were on our side initially. The Democrats were the

840
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 5: ones we had to fight, and I think the reason

841
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,959
Speaker 5: was is because they were close.

842
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 8: With the ACLU.

843
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 5: They wanted to do what the acl wanted well, and

844
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 5: so I think that's why that happened. But that's not

845
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 5: the case anymore.

846
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: Now.

847
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 5: It's definitely a non partisan issue and they're members equally

848
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 5: on both Democrats and Republicans who support this issue and

849
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 5: having a federal law. And Jackie Spear, who's a Democrat,

850
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 5: is the one who has been pushing this and brought

851
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 5: this board on multiple occasions.

852
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 8: Unfortunately, it doesn't.

853
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 5: Look like it's going to pass and she's leaving office

854
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 5: in November, so I'm not sure if we're ever going

855
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 5: to have a federal law.

856
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 8: I have no idea.

857
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: That is a huge bummer. However, forty eight states now

858
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: right have.

859
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 6: Lows to this.

860
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 5: They do, they are very weak. I to be misdemeanors

861
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 5: and they are pretty weak laws. And am I stayed

862
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 5: at something like a five hundred dollars fine and up

863
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 5: to six months in prison. So it's not very serious.

864
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 5: And it's also not consistent from state to state, which

865
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 5: can be very confusing for victims because if you live

866
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 5: in Kansas and the perpetrators in Oregon, you don't even

867
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 5: know which law would pertain. So it makes it really

868
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 5: confusing and difficult to prosecute.

869
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 2: Right.

870
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 6: Oh, that's a really really good point. Yeah, it's not

871
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 6: like the internet.

872
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: It's not like people are just staying within their own

873
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: state when they're posting times.

874
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 7: Yeah.

875
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 6: Well, back to Hunter for a second.

876
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: So I'm going to try to summarize this because it

877
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: takes a couple of little turns here. He went on

878
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: Anderson Cooper and after that the website got even bigger,

879
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 2: even though his appearance definitely didn't make him look good

880
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 2: and didn't make the website look good, at least according

881
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 2: to the docuseries.

882
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 6: At that point, the website.

883
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: Sort of explodes and gets like even bigger, and now

884
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: it's there are people posting like much worse things, underage

885
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 2: photos and like just more vile things that were already

886
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 2: legal being up there. This man, James mcgibney, he was

887
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: a marine, yeah.

888
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 7: For a marine, but didn't he have a website? And

889
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 7: I know Bullyville, but didn't.

890
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 8: He have it. He had a cheeterville with his cheaters Bill.

891
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 5: I think it was people post their cheating spouses and

892
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 5: and then people would come on and attack the cheaters

893
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 5: at that side.

894
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 7: At one got it.

895
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 2: Okay, which is interesting because that is bullying. I didn't

896
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: know about that part. So the anti the allegedly anti

897
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: bullying man reaches out to Hunter and is basically like,

898
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: but he's a very tech savvy guy. He's going through

899
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: all of his data and he's looking at the back

900
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,479
Speaker 2: end stuff or whatever, and he's he says to Hunter, Hey,

901
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: you know you're not doing a good job at filtering

902
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: the pedophilic content on your website.

903
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 6: You're going to get in trouble.

904
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,919
Speaker 2: You're running out of money. I'm going to just buy

905
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: your website from you. Hunter says, yes, he sells the

906
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: website to this man, and now the website redirects to

907
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: Bullyville dot com, which is an.

908
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, he sold, he sold the domain, the domain

909
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 5: that's he sold the domain name, and then he and

910
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 5: then after that is when he said he was going

911
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 5: to bring the site back. He was just going to

912
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 5: get a new domain that's, you know, pretty easy to do,

913
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 5: and he was going to put it on huntermore dot tv.

914
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 5: And then he was going to make it worse because

915
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 5: he was not only going to put up all the

916
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 5: original content, which of course means my daughter's picture and

917
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 5: everybody would go back up, but he was also going

918
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 5: to put their home addresses with driving directions on how

919
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 5: to get to their houses. So that was his plan

920
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 5: until Anonymous came by and decided to dox him and

921
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 5: put him out of business.

922
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: Essentially tell tell us some of the things Anonymous did,

923
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 2: because it's so amazing.

924
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I you know, I didn't really know

925
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 5: about most of this. I knew he'd put they put

926
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 5: the social Security number out for him, I know that,

927
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 5: and supposedly they declared him dead in the state of California,

928
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 5: and he was dead for like a month.

929
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 8: They spent the two hundred dildos to his house or something.

930
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 8: I mean, I don't know.

931
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 5: I mean, I didn't even know most of this until

932
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 5: I saw the documentary, just like you. But yeah, but

933
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 5: they had caught they contacted me. But the day before

934
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 5: they did this, they contacted me and said, don't worry,

935
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 5: we're going to protect you.

936
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 8: And we're going after him tomorrow.

937
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 5: And they contacted me through Twitter, through direct message and

938
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 5: then through a phone call. And I didn't know for

939
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 5: sure if it was real. I mean, I'm like, I

940
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 5: don't know, this is a practical.

941
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 8: Joke, it is real. But anyway, they did go.

942
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 5: After ter him and and he was very scared of Anonymous,

943
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 5: so he became rank quiet. He would already was scared

944
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 5: of the FBI, and he knew he was under FBI investigation.

945
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 5: But when he got very bold and was going to

946
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 5: bring the site back again, he believed that the FBI

947
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 5: had dropped the investigation.

948
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 8: And that's what I thought.

949
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 5: Too, because it had been a really long time and

950
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 5: they weren't even returning my calls anymore. So it was

951
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 5: like everybody kind of thought they just dropped it, you know,

952
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 5: and so Hunter got bolder because he thought, you know,

953
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 5: he could get away with anything all over again.

954
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 6: It's just so hard to fathom.

955
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 2: Like I feel like when I see bullies on the internet,

956
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: in my head, I'm always like, oh, but they're doing

957
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: it because they have no identity or they have no community,

958
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: and they're finding it in this place.

959
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 6: This man seems just like utterly and.

960
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: Completely sociopathic, malicious, just revels in other people's pain.

961
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 6: He literally tweeted people are going to get.

962
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: Murdered when he was going to be posting the new

963
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 2: website right right.

964
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 5: His view is is that if you tear other people down,

965
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 5: it will somehow build him up. That is his belief.

966
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 5: So he just and he has a hatred of women.

967
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 5: I you know, I probably hates people in general, but

968
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 5: he definitely does feel obviously as a very hollow person.

969
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 5: He doesn't have very high self esteem really, even though

970
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 5: he has this arrogant attitude, he obviously is a very

971
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 5: sad person and probably very unhappy.

972
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Steve just pointed out in our Google doc after

973
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: Hunter sold his website to James mc givney. On his Twitter,

974
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: Hunter accused James mc givney, this anti bullying guy, of

975
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: being a pedophile and of possessing child pornography, and he

976
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: threatened to rape his wife. So right, that is the

977
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: level of that this man, and James.

978
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 5: Mc givney took him to court and won two hundred

979
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 5: and fifty thousand dollars against Hunter. I don't think Hunter

980
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 5: even showed up in court because of course he didn't

981
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 5: care about civil suits.

982
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 8: He had no assets.

983
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 5: So there's still a judgment against Hunter by James mc

984
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 5: givney to this day.

985
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 8: Wow.

986
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: All right, so now how does he finally get convicted.

987
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 5: Well, he finally got arrested by the FBI, and so

988
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 5: did his hacker, and they kept pushing the court date

989
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 5: for a word, and he was a originally looking at

990
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 5: forty two years in prison, but unfortunately in the end

991
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 5: he only got two and a half years and even

992
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 5: got out earlier from that. And I don't think he

993
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 5: was in very serious places. In fact that I think

994
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 5: they were more like camps and drug and alcohol rehab centers.

995
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 5: I was told. I was told that one place he

996
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 5: was in that the inmates were allowed to go to

997
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 5: the store by themselves, unsupervised at what they wanted and

998
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 5: come home.

999
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 8: So it was kind of more like somebody not jail.

1000
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, Okay, that's disappointing.

1001
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 5: And that was Yeah, it was disappointing. And it was

1002
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 5: a plea deal. So he you know, agreed to, you know,

1003
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 5: go along with a guilty you know, say guilty in

1004
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 5: order to get a reduced sentence. And I had been

1005
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 5: tasked by the FBI with getting together victims to come

1006
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 5: into court to speak kind of one after the other.

1007
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 5: And what happened was this, the prosecutor called me in

1008
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,959
Speaker 5: her office, you know, before all of this happened, and said,

1009
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 5: you know, don't do it. I'm going to do it.

1010
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 5: I don't want you contacting any of the victims. I

1011
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 5: don't want you orchestrating it. So I didn't and so

1012
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 5: I go showed up at court and the only person

1013
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 5: there to speak with my daughter, not any of the victims.

1014
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 5: And that was very sad because I was told by

1015
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 5: Kamala Harris's office prior to that that the key to

1016
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 5: success for getting a longer sentence was having a stream

1017
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 5: of victims telling their story one after the other. Right,

1018
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 5: because she had a similar revenge porn case in San

1019
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 5: Diego where the guy got something like twenty.

1020
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 8: Seven years in prison.

1021
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 5: He got a long sentence because they had this string

1022
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 5: of victims speaking, So that was disappointing that that didn't happen.

1023
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 1: Wow.

1024
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I am someone who is like not

1025
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 2: into prisons, and I'm like, prison reform is something that's

1026
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: very important to me. But when it comes to people

1027
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,919
Speaker 2: like hunter More, I am like, that is the one

1028
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 2: kind of person who like is bad for society and

1029
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 2: should at least be limited in what they are allowed

1030
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: to do because they are actively causing harm. They're not

1031
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 2: going to reform. Like people like that don't reform. I

1032
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 2: think that most people who commit crimes are caped are

1033
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 2: doing it for reasons that most of us it can

1034
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 2: be rehabilitated.

1035
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 6: I really do believe that.

1036
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 2: But I see people like him and I'm like, that

1037
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: man does not have a conscience.

1038
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 6: He actively does not.

1039
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 2: And what do you do with someone who just doesn't

1040
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: have a conscience. Apparently you put them in a luxury

1041
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,439
Speaker 2: rehab a half or whatever whatever.

1042
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 7: He has to be himself. That's a punishment enough.

1043
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 2: Well, I'm just like I'm scared that he's on TikTok

1044
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: because it makes me think of what's his face?

1045
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 6: Who everyone's been talking about lately, Andrew Tait.

1046
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 5: Andrew Tate, Yeah, yeah.

1047
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: It's for some reason. These men are just like resonating

1048
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: with people right now. So it really scares me that

1049
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 2: he's back on social media.

1050
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, that sucks all right.

1051
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 2: So now here you are, having talked to so many

1052
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 2: people who've been through this experience and having worked so

1053
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 2: hard to get some of this legislation through. How what

1054
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 2: is your perspective on this now? How do you think

1055
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 2: people who've been through something like this can move through it?

1056
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: Do you have any particular nuggets of wisdom you'd like

1057
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: to share?

1058
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 8: Well, I mean there is.

1059
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 5: A hotline that the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative has, so

1060
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 5: if you need help, you can go to cybercivil Rights

1061
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 5: dot org and their website not only has lots of resources,

1062
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 5: but has that hotline where you can talk to a person.

1063
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 5: And the Cyber Civil Rights Legal Project if you just

1064
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 5: put that into Google and do a search, those are

1065
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 5: attorneys all over the country who will help victims pro bono.

1066
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 5: So if you need assistance, that is another resource that

1067
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 5: you have, And you know, there are a lot of

1068
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,439
Speaker 5: other little tools you can use. For example, you might

1069
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 5: want to have if you're dating someone or you're about

1070
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 5: to date someone, you might want to have a social

1071
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,479
Speaker 5: media prenup or a social media post up that says

1072
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 5: something like you're not allowed.

1073
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,439
Speaker 8: To ever post photos of each other or.

1074
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 5: You know, kind of outline what the parameters of the

1075
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 5: relationship are that can help. And if it does happen

1076
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 5: to you, you want to build up your online presents

1077
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 5: for positive things. You don't want to like shut everything down.

1078
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 5: The initial reaction is just shut it down because I

1079
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 5: don't even want to be on the internet. But that

1080
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 5: means the new pictures flowed up to the top. So

1081
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 5: you want to have all the positive stuff and you

1082
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 5: want to push down the negative stuff.

1083
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: I love smart as Yeah, a lot of former cult

1084
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 2: members live in fear of you know, the collateral of

1085
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 2: them being released or you know, dude photos coming out

1086
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 2: or whatever it is, the maxim stuff. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

1087
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: and that's a really good point. It's like your life

1088
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be over when if this stuff does

1089
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: come out. You have options now, and you can also

1090
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 2: like defeat it in the in the algorithm. It sounds

1091
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: like what you're saying. And also we just live in

1092
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 2: a different world now. I think it's just like pretty

1093
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: societally understood that that is a wrong thing to do.

1094
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: And if that if there are videos or photos of

1095
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 2: you online that you didn't consent to having online, that

1096
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you're just a dirty slut. That means something

1097
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: you were harmed and you you are a victim. I mean, hopefully,

1098
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: that's my perception of where we are now saying right, hopefully.

1099
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 5: And also people should also know that if you take

1100
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 5: a picture of yourself, you own the copyright to that picture,

1101
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 5: and if a friend takes a picture of you, you

1102
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 5: can ask the friend to find those rights over to you,

1103
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 5: and you are supposed to be protected under the Digital

1104
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 5: Millennium Copyright Act. And even though that's normally civilly, you know,

1105
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 5: it's a civil lawsuit, not a criminal lawsuit. You know,

1106
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 5: if you did bring somebody to court over that, you

1107
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 5: can win two hundred and fifty thousand dollars per photo.

1108
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 5: So it is a significant thing. And the websites when

1109
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 5: that when a picture that you own the copyright too appears,

1110
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 5: they are supposed to remove that. They have a certain

1111
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 5: period of time I think at seventy two hours that

1112
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 5: is supposed to be removed from that website if you own.

1113
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 6: The amazing good to know. Yeah, how's Kayla?

1114
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 7: Now?

1115
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 8: She's doing better.

1116
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 5: She just got married about month and a half ago,

1117
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 5: so that's very exciting. And she's a real estate agent

1118
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 5: and she likes her job and she's doing very well.

1119
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 5: And so she's doing great, and she's you know, more

1120
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 5: comfortable with this issue now. She almost wasn't in the documentary.

1121
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 5: She has said no until like the last day of filming,

1122
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 5: and then she said, oh, okay, I'll do a half

1123
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 5: a day of filming, and so she did, you know,

1124
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 5: like a half a day of an interview and that

1125
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 5: was it. But I think she really added a lot

1126
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 5: of texture to the project totally.

1127
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 7: What's next for you? Are you going to keep fighting this?

1128
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 5: Yeah? I still talk to victims. I've talked over five

1129
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,240
Speaker 5: hundred victims in the last ten years, so I still

1130
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 5: do that. And I'm certainly willing to help on federal

1131
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 5: legislation if there's anything I can.

1132
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 8: Do to help with that.

1133
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 5: And other than that, I just I'm working a lot

1134
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 5: on the animal cause. I'm working on a book related

1135
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 5: to animal advocacy, and so I'm working on other projects

1136
00:52:58,480 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 5: as well.

1137
00:52:59,280 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 6: Awesome.

1138
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 2: I can't wait to hear the next journey that you

1139
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: undertaken and write a book about so much more.

1140
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 6: In the Charlotte Laws world to come.

1141
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 7: H so good.

1142
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 5: Well, let me tell you one more thing that's a

1143
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 5: little bit on topic, but I might interest you because

1144
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 5: it's sistical about cults. So when I met my husband,

1145
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 5: he was listed as an unindicted co conspirator all over

1146
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 5: the internet, and he didn't want me to even know,

1147
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 5: but he had been in scientology for twenty years and

1148
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 5: he got he got out of scientology, and he was

1149
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 5: embarrassed to tell me that he thought I would not

1150
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 5: want to go out with him because he had been

1151
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 5: and his mom had gotten him in. And the reason

1152
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 5: why he was listed as an unindicted co conspirator is

1153
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 5: because in the nineteen seventies he was part of the

1154
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 5: upper echelon, so he was the head of their legal

1155
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 5: department worldwide, so.

1156
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 8: He was one of the big in the organization.

1157
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 5: But what they were doing in the nineteen seventies is

1158
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 5: Scientology was breaking into like the you know, the the

1159
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 5: FBI offices and the you know, the you know Attorney General,

1160
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 5: and they were going into all these government offices to

1161
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 5: steal documents they were trying to get documents that they

1162
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 5: thought the government had on them. They Wow, wanted to

1163
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 5: see what the government had, so they were into this

1164
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 5: collecting of paper and what happened was a couple of

1165
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,439
Speaker 5: guys who broke and got caught and one turned state

1166
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 5: evidence and gave up everybody else and so eleven people

1167
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 5: went to prison, but they couldn't get my husband on anything.

1168
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 8: So he's an unindicted co.

1169
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 5: Conspirator along with our you know, Ron Hubbard also was

1170
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 5: listed as an unindicted co conspirator and his wife went

1171
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 5: to prison.

1172
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 8: Actually hit Ron Hubbard's wife went to prison. Wow, So

1173
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 8: that's my husband's past and kind of has that.

1174
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 7: Well, we definitely need your husband on the pipe. I

1175
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 7: know can An He'll do it because.

1176
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 4: I mean even just he's like the perfect example of

1177
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 4: what we talk about of people who can get involved

1178
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 4: in in colts not being who you expect your husband is,

1179
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 4: this British lawyer who you think.

1180
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 7: Is just like would never be in that situation.

1181
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:01,959
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1182
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: Well, and I think too, like we have more women

1183
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 2: than we do men on this show, and I think

1184
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 2: my theory is just that women are more comfortable talking

1185
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: about their experiences, so when this kind of thing happens

1186
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: to men and they, I think there's a little bit

1187
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: more shame around it. So we love to have men

1188
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 2: on talking about their experiences.

1189
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 6: So if he would be interested, yeah, to.

1190
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,359
Speaker 8: Ask him, let us I'll laugh.

1191
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you anyway, this has been amazing. Thank you

1192
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 2: so much. What are your books that you are most

1193
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 2: tell us the books you'd like to promote, or and

1194
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 2: or any social media website whatever.

1195
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 5: Well, I have two memoirs, and Undercover Debutante is my

1196
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 5: most recent one, and Rebel and High Heels is my

1197
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 5: other one, and they cover different periods of my life,

1198
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 5: so so both of them they're not there's no repeat.

1199
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 5: And I'm on Twitter at Charlotte Laws just like my name,

1200
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 5: and I'm on Instagram as doctor Charlotte Laws, so those

1201
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 5: are my social media Awesome.

1202
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 6: Well, thanks so much for talking to us. This is

1203
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 6: so great.

1204
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 8: Thank you, hy, thanks so much for having me.

1205
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: So Megan, there's not really a group here. I suspect

1206
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 2: you wouldn't post on his anyone up dot com, But

1207
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 2: but tell me what you tell me? If you would,

1208
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 2: you tell me would I post someone else? Would you

1209
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 2: post yourself?

1210
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 4: Oh?

1211
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 3: Would I post myself?

1212
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 6: Would you post someone else? I mean, I don't think so.

1213
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: No, I know, I think that I am such a loser.

1214
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: I guess I'd never even heard of it until And

1215
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: it is absolutely shocking to me that there's just people

1216
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: that look normal tweeting about it, being like I love.

1217
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 3: It, Like, No, that is so wild.

1218
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: This is like the most evil shit I've ever heard

1219
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: in my life.

1220
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 3: So okay, so here's the real question.

1221
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I saw Hunter More in person, what would you say?

1222
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: Mmm, I don't think I want to give him attention,

1223
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: but if I but if I had to, I mean,

1224
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,879
Speaker 1: I think I would probably talk a lot about his insecurity,

1225
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: which I have my own guess of what those would be.

1226
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 3: But I think with predators you have to really attack them.

1227
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: I learned that the hard way in high school when

1228
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: I really didn't want to be mean to somebody, but

1229
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: he was a hunter More and so I had to

1230
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: humiliate him to get him to leave me alone.

1231
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 3: So I'd humiliate him.

1232
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 6: I did that too, did you Yes?

1233
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 3: In high school, in the front of the whole class.

1234
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 8: Wow.

1235
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 2: In high school, this guy kept lying and saying he

1236
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 2: did I tell you this already?

1237
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 3: I'm sure I talk about this already.

1238
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: This guy in high school kept lying and saying he'd

1239
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 2: had sex with me, and I was a virgin and

1240
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: I took my virginity very fucking seriously. And he was

1241
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 2: just like a horrible douchebag who kept like terrorizing women.

1242
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 6: So I made a mask of his face.

1243
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: Oh, and I dressed up as him for Halloween, and

1244
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: I started a club called the Anti Brandon Gear Club

1245
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 2: that was his name, and he was so embarrassed he

1246
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: left me alone forever after that.

1247
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 3: It was great.

1248
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: My story was that my abuser just wouldn't leave me alone.

1249
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: And he had a disgusting rash that he got halfway

1250
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: through the year for some reason that he couldn't get

1251
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: rid of. And he was like touching me during math

1252
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: class one day, and for some reason, like three math

1253
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: classes had come together, so there were so many people

1254
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: near him, and I was like, stop touching me, I

1255
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: don't want your rash, and he turned bright red.

1256
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 3: And never messed with me again.

1257
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: We should be clear though, that for dangerous people, humiliating

1258
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 2: them will be the thing that probably gets them to

1259
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 2: commit violence, so realistically we've probably should just not engage

1260
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: at all. But it's so much fun when you do

1261
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 2: and it works.

1262
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 3: And if you're stuck, I mean, it's not fun per se.

1263
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: But if you're stuck in a world with them and

1264
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: they won't leave you alone, like a hundred more was

1265
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: in my life, I would have to publicly humiliate them

1266
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: at some point. Yeah, I think sociopaths, that's like the

1267
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: only way you can get them to shut the fuck up.

1268
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 3: But most of the time you can just remove yourself. Yeah.

1269
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think generally speaking, we should not engage with

1270
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: people who have patterns of abuse. But if they're doing

1271
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 2: consistent behavior, I don't know. All I'm saying all I'm saying,

1272
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: you're right, I agree, I don't know.

1273
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1274
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 2: Guys don't listen either way. Take this with a great assault,

1275
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 2: a very large grain of salt. But having an anti

1276
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: having a club. It was on a real club, but

1277
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 2: it was like a little angel fire page I made

1278
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 2: to make fun of the person who would not leave

1279
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 2: me alone and like kept like lying about me was

1280
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 2: very satisfying when I was fifteen.

1281
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 3: Years old, I love it, beautiful.

1282
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 7: Bullying is bad.

1283
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 3: It's bad. Oh yeah, Bullying is disgusting.

1284
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: It's a very specific thing to pull out, to pull

1285
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: out the stops. Thank you guys for spending this wonderful

1286
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 1: episode with us. We cannot wait to see you here

1287
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,959
Speaker 1: again next week and does always remember to follow your gut,

1288
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: watch out for red flags.

1289
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me. Bye bye.

1290
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Delemater.

1291
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 7: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1292
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: And her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1293
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1294
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1295
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1296
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1297
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1298
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1299
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.