1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Mm and so this is what they found. Like mm hmmm. 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, will journey 3 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: into the realm of the most mysterious and rarest of 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: beasts in the United States, like a ghost. Sometimes he's 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: here and sometimes he isn't. We'll talk with a man 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: who documented the first live one in the United States 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: and see how it uprooted the conservation world and how 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: the story rose to prominence in national media. You might 9 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: recognize his voice when you hear him. We'll do a 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: classic bear Grease nerd out with Arizona biologist Jim Heffelfinger 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: to understand how this animal makes a living. And we'll 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: meet yet another legendary man of the Southwest, though he's 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: been gone for over thirty years. You'll hear his voice 14 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: and receive an impartation from his passion. What we're talking 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: about is panthera Anca, the eater of us, the Borderland's jaguar. 16 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: I doubt you're gonna want to miss this one, But 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: before we start, I've got a question for you. Before 18 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: this intro, would you have known that there are jaguars 19 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: in the United States? Well, the answer is kind of complicated. 20 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,279 Speaker 1: You would think like an orangeish cat with black spots 21 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: would be so obvious, but very much not so. Those 22 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: spots are there for a purpose, to hide them for 23 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: a couple of months until they get big enough. This 24 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: doesn't sound fair chase to me, Jim. They gotta give 25 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: these coups deer and have Elena's and jaggerundi's a chance. 26 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,639 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear 27 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 28 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 29 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. 30 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: Presented by f HF Gear, American made, purpose built hunting 31 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as 32 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: the places we explore. Guys, we've got an exclusive bear 33 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: Grease discount code for f h F Gear that's Fish 34 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: Hunt Fight Gear. 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So go to 44 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: f h F gear dot com Forward slash bear grease 45 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: for a special code. If you're buying stuff from f 46 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: h F Gear, check it out Fish Hunt Fight f 47 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: h F Gear. The topic at hand is a rare 48 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: thing in modern times. I absolutely love it when the 49 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: natural world jolts us back to a healthy posture of 50 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: awe and mystery by revealing something we didn't think was possible. 51 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: Jaguars are a jungle cat heavily mythologized by the indigenous 52 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: people of Central and South America for millennia. The English 53 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: word jaguar is derived from the Tupi Guarani language of Amazonia. 54 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: Their word is ya guaria, and it means either of us. 55 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: It's easy to understand why humans have been entranced by 56 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: these beasts from the very beginning. A giant, yellow spotted 57 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: cat with an oversized head and the mystical rosette pattern 58 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: of his spotting makes him almost like a ghost. In Mexico, 59 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: he's known as LT Gray and The Brazilian layman's term 60 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: for the jaguar is Ownsa, but in science textbooks he's 61 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:31,239 Speaker 1: known as Panthera anca. The genus Panthera is the order 62 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: of roaring cats. Yep I said, roaring, not purring. That's 63 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: pretty cool. The tiger, lion, leopard, and jaguar are the 64 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:47,239 Speaker 1: only cat species anatomically outfitted to roar. For the record, 65 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: don't let my perceived enthusiasm for felines be mistaken for 66 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: having any love in my heart for domestic cats. I 67 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: only like the big main ones that work for a 68 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: living and put the or a god in every living 69 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: thing in the jungle or the desert, I reckon. Jaguars 70 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: are celebrated throughout their territory, which ranges from northern Argentina 71 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: into Brazil, Bolivia, Venezuela, Colombia, and then the cats continue 72 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: up into Central America all the way into Mexico. In 73 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: southern Mexico, jaguars are still very much at home in 74 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: the dense, tropical like region. But as you had north, 75 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: something very interesting begins to happen. The distribution of Panthera 76 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: anca begins to hug the east and west coasts. The 77 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: further north you go into Mexico. By the time you 78 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: reach the geopolitical barrier of the US and Mexican border, 79 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: jaguars are at the very fringe of their range, and 80 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: I mean fringe in natural systems. Fringe habitat creates interesting 81 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: populations of an alimos that are quite different than their 82 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: ken at the core of the range. They're the outliers 83 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: who utilize their survival strategies to the fullest point of 84 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: leverage to make a living. You see, these jungle cats 85 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: don't seem to particularly like living in arid regions, but 86 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: it's just tolerable enough for some of them. I like 87 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: to think of these fringe populations as special, almost like 88 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: the frontiersman of the species testing the northern boundaries. It's 89 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: a mystery, but in their travels they must perceive the 90 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: nuanced limitations of the land as they head north, and 91 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: perhaps their own limitations and the magnetism of the south 92 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: overrides their wanderlust. And there is a point when they 93 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: go no further, and that point is just barely inside 94 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: the boundaries of the United States, and here these big 95 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: cats are known as the borderland's jaguars. I want to 96 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: understand these Borderlands, jaguars, their biology, and the overlap of 97 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: how humans have interacted with the eater of us in 98 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: the Southwest. But first we've got to hear a story 99 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: that became a foundational piece of the jaguars modern North 100 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: American story. It involves none other than our friend Warrener Glenn. 101 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: I'll give you a head start to understanding the significance 102 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: of what you're about to hear, because Mr Warner kind 103 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: of plays it off like it's no big deal. But 104 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: before this, we didn't think they came here anymore. This 105 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: story took place in extreme southwest New Mexico. That was 106 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: a completely new express So let me go back to 107 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: a little bit. But Dad and I went to Mexico 108 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: twice trying to catch the jaguar. I mean, it was 109 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: their beautiful cat, and they're very hard to get, very 110 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: hard to trail, little catch and uh dangerous for the 111 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: Mexican jaguars down here or known for killing dogs. And 112 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: we never had any luck, so Daddy never got to 113 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: see a jaguary. Now, in nine Kelly and I were 114 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: hunting in the telling Cia Mountains right east others, and 115 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: we split up that morning and she actually took one 116 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: dog with her maple, and she hit that track. She 117 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: didn't know what it was, she thought she but she 118 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: knew it was a cat. She knew it was either 119 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: a line that line, and that's what we are, a 120 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: bump cat that But the way it was pulling out, 121 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: she figure was a line. So she told me which 122 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: the way it was going, and I cut ahead of it, 123 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: and and I finally got to where I could hear maple, 124 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: and of course my dogs heard it and went tour. 125 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: And what happened the track I read in the book. 126 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: The track was very big, and you thought it was 127 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: a big mountain, big old and so that when they 128 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: all got with her, that thing evidently had heard my 129 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: dogs and turned around and went back the other way, 130 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: and it went along. We trailed that from that point on. 131 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: We trailed in well, actually there was a junk track 132 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: from then on, and we trapped probably another four miles 133 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: before they had finally bade it. And of course I 134 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: was trying to keep up on the mule. Kelly had 135 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: gone back to get our client, and I was trying 136 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: to keep the dogs in here, and we didn't have 137 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: tracking callers in on the bull. And when I first 138 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: I finally caught up to where I could see him 139 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: baying off in a across a big basin with the 140 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: head of a canyon there on the other side, and 141 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: I could tell they had it bade on top of 142 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: this big boulder was kind of a small bluff cliff there, 143 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: and it looked to me I could just see it 144 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: crouched there is that it was probably I was looking 145 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: a half a mile across and I couldn't really tell. 146 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: I thought it's big old tom Land. So I told Kelly, 147 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: I said, they've got that thing bade, and I'm gonna 148 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: get over there to it so I can get with 149 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: those dogs while you're bringing the client. So when I 150 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: call over there, I tied my mule and I walked 151 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: down about forty yards. It was really rough, steep mountain there, 152 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: and I looked around the opinion tree there and I 153 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: can see that thing right, And then that's the first 154 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: time I realized it was Jaguar and it was crowd 155 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: just on top of that, and I it looked over 156 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: and saw me about the same time, and that's when 157 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: I took the first I ran back up to my 158 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: mule and got a camera out of my saddle horned pouch. 159 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: And ran back down there where I wasn't. I took 160 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: a picture. I took three of it there, and then 161 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: the jaguars stood up and looked around, and then he 162 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: went over this rock out of the side of me, 163 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: and I thought that sudden. He was gonna jump off 164 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: of there, and the dogs were all around the base 165 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: of this cliff, but it was too far for him 166 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: to jump. It would have been like a forty ft 167 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: straight off jump. So he came back over. So I 168 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: got pictures of him coming back over the rock, and 169 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: then he jumped off the uphill side and took off, 170 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: and the dogs camera had got on his track, so 171 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: the chase was on. So I ran back, got the 172 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: mule and went off of them, and I told Kelly 173 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: what was going on. I said, Jelly to Jaguar, and 174 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: he said, I've got to get those dogs stopped and 175 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: and get before I get something hurt. Well, they bade 176 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: it again off in a big canyon there, and when 177 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: I caught up, and when I got I tied my 178 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: mule bag. I could hear that thing. It was really mad. 179 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: It was roaring at those dogs. And I tied the 180 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: mule back of ways, and then I slipped down their 181 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: foot was the camera and it was trying to get 182 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: those dogs back. And that thing looked up and saw 183 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: me and one day to word word could go back 184 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: in to crevice, sir, and boy, here he came, but 185 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: right his eyes locked onto mine, and here he came. 186 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: He knew that I was a problem, and how I 187 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: don't know, And those dogs made him head on. There 188 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: was a billion I've got pictures of that meeting. And 189 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: and then they all fell off back into that crevice 190 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: and I went in there and he had one dog 191 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: by the hind leg and he broke the It was Maple, 192 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: and it ran in there on top of the shelf, 193 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: and they kicked a bunch of loose gravel and stuff 194 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: that oh, and it hit that that stuff. He hit 195 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: the jaguar on the rear in and he whipped around. 196 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: And I got back and got the dogs on top. 197 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: And as soon as I got the dogs back, then 198 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: he went ahead and left. And I tied four of 199 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: those dogs to the only and Maple was hurt. She 200 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: couldn't go. He had a broken leg. So two of 201 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: the young dogs left with it, and I thought, boy, 202 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do. I just went in 203 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: and made sure if they and they came back before 204 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: I got ready to go try to catch up thed 205 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: I think it ran ran them back all sous and 206 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: I was glad. I was glad for it to get 207 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: out of there. But that was that was the first one. 208 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: That was the that was the first documented jaguar in 209 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: the first picture of a jaguar in the United States. 210 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: It was the first picture of a live jaguar in 211 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: the wild in the United States. That's why it got 212 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: gained a little bit of notorat or whatever you call it, 213 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what, just because and really at that 214 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: time they weren't on the endangered species list, but they 215 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: were on the proposed endangered list, and so it wasn't 216 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: of course they were protected state law and all side 217 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: by the federal law, but but it was they weren't 218 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: on the endangered species But I still I still didn't 219 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: know for sure whether to make it come out in 220 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: public with that picture, because I had some good pictures 221 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: of that thing, and I just didn't know what the 222 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: reaction would be. So I had a little meeting with 223 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: some of the renters around in the Maltpipe Borderlands Group, 224 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: and we decided to do that's a neat thing to have. 225 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: But yeah, this win. Yeah, we thought it was a 226 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: need and it's not gonna come up here and put 227 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: some rentro out of business. I mean, they're just a 228 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: few of the come through. Yeah, And so I went 229 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: in and public with the pictures. The history of jaguars 230 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: in the Southwest United States goes back a long ways, 231 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: like to the plis to see kind of long ways, 232 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: and it's a complex story. At this point, all you 233 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: need to know is that this was the first live 234 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: jaguar documented in the United States, and it started a 235 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: tidal wave of interest in the Borderland jaguar. It was 236 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: essentially like someone showing up with a legitimate photo of Bigfoot. 237 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: The major news outlets in the country featured the old 238 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: Cowboys jaguar story. The eyes of the global conservation world, 239 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: We're on Mr Warner in the series of beautiful photos 240 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: he took of the Borderland's jaguar, and it came with 241 00:14:54,240 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: a flurry of research to feed America's new fascination. Jim 242 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: Heffelfinger is the Wildlife Science Coordinator for the Arizona Department 243 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: of Game and Fish. He's an author and a full 244 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: research scientists at the University of Arizona. More than that, 245 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: he's a wealth of information on all things wild. He's 246 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: been stomping around the jaguar fringe habitat of Arizona and 247 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: New Mexico for most of his life. And I want 248 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: to understand jaguar biology. I think Jim can help us. 249 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,359 Speaker 1: I want to start off with Jim in some deep history, 250 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: like way deep. The Pleistocene is a term used to 251 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: describe a time period on Earth. It started roughly two 252 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: point five million years ago and ended about ten thousand 253 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: years ago, which was just like yesterday. This roughly corresponds 254 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: with the glaciers of North America retreating, the climate warming 255 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: in a bunch of species going extinct and Homo sapiens arriving. 256 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: It truly was a fantastical period of North American biological history, 257 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: the likes of which Marvel Studios couldn't rival. With a 258 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: hundred million dollar budget and the world's most creative digital animators, 259 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: the place was wild. When you see a jaguar today, 260 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: know that he's got some deep history. Here's Jim, as 261 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: I understand it. The jaguar used to be I mean, 262 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: it was a different species of jaguar that's now extinct. 263 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: But it was a very large jaguar, like like most 264 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: things during that time period and what is now North America, 265 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: they were giant. It's fascinating because I believe it was 266 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: Panthera Augusta was the was the big like pleist to 267 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: see jaguar, and then over time it got smaller and 268 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: smaller and smaller and smaller, as as the big animals 269 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: as eating got smaller. I thought it was interesting that 270 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: it out competed and survived all the big cats except 271 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: for the Mountain lion, and those are the two big 272 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: ones that we have left. Sure, we had a North 273 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: American chea, we had North American lion, We had a 274 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: North American smilet on fatalis the big savor tooth cats, 275 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: and everything was bigger. We had ninety pound beavers in 276 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: the places seen. We had bison that has a very 277 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: clearly demonstrated reduction in size through time to the to 278 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: the bison we know from the eighteen hundreds and so 279 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: a lot of things got smaller. So that was a 280 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: pretty pretty typical kind of relationship. We had dire wolves, 281 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: which were giant wolves in the place has seen. Why 282 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: did things get smaller? I think it's probably just a 283 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: change in productivity when in that glacial environment you had 284 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: so much disturbance and you just had a lot of productivity, 285 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: and you've got abundance of prey animals. We had so 286 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: many different hooved animals in North America, many of them 287 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: that evolved here and became extinct and and never never 288 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: survived to anything else. What we have in North America's 289 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: day is just the remnants of what it used to be. 290 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: Even with the big cats. I mean, we have two 291 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: big cats. The closest relative of the jaguar, as I 292 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: understand it, is the African leopard. They kind of came 293 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: from the same place, diverged from each other in the 294 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: African leopard is still in Africa, but they're similar species. 295 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: And I've read where they can breathe. They've read them 296 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: in captivity and I actually produced fertile offspring, which is 297 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: kind of wild, right, So the cats are prone to 298 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: do that. You can you can cross tigers and um 299 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: and lions. The Lager of Napoleon dynamite fame is actually 300 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: a real thing. They can do that in captivity. So 301 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: cats will sometimes cross, But the jaguars is from that 302 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 1: group of panther, which is a roaring cats that are 303 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: vocal and they roar like that. And so you're write 304 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: there related to those old world cats that evolved over there, 305 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: as a jaguar came over here. Talk to me about 306 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: the roaring cats. Yeah, that's uh, just some class of cats, 307 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: those big cats that they call roaring cats, and they 308 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: make a vocalization, a lot of different vocalizations, and the 309 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: jaguar kind of has an ug ug ug that it 310 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: will repeat an increasing frequency and then fade off like that. 311 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a breeding call, is that what 312 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: it would be, right? It's mostly a locating breeding call 313 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: to breed because they're solitary animals and they will get 314 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: together and and pair up just for the breeding season. 315 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: But that's it. They don't they don't have male and 316 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: female groups walking around together just hunting together. They just 317 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: get together and breathe and it's about a one day 318 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: affair and then they're separate again. So how big are jaguars? Yeah, 319 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: in South America and what we say is the real 320 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: jungle habitat, they're much bigger, more diversity of prey, a 321 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: lot more bigger items, at a higher density. It's so 322 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: jaguars down there would be two hundred, two hundred and 323 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: fifty pounds for males. A hundred twenty five pounds for 324 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,719 Speaker 1: females is an average. But up in this northern what 325 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: we call the borderland jaguars, they're much smaller than than 326 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: you would find out at Central and South America. And 327 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: they're not a whole lot actually not a whole lot 328 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: bigger than that our mountain lions are here, and so 329 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: some of the there's there's not a lot of figures, 330 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: of course, because we don't have a huge sample size 331 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: of jaguar weights from Arizona, New Mexico and the northern 332 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: Mexico border lands. But some of the weights that we 333 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: do have seemed to average around for males eighty pounds, 334 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: two hundred pounds for for females, and so considerably smaller 335 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: than Central, well in South American jaguars. Some indication that 336 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: some of these at the northern end are a little 337 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: bit heavier than those in Central Mexico. But again you're 338 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: dealing with a sample size problem. And if you weigh 339 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: a dead jaguar, does it have forty pounds of deer 340 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: or elk inside its belly or has it maybe not 341 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: eaten for two weeks. That can make a huge difference. 342 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: I read that Dale Lee recorded his biggest male jaguars 343 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: away a hundred and sixty two pounds. I think that's 344 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: the record too. I just dropped a name that will 345 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: need to know if we want to understand the robust 346 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: swath of jaguar history. Dale Lee was from Arizona. He 347 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: was a legendary mountain lion and jaguar hunter in the Southwest. 348 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: We're going to learn more about dale and just a bit, 349 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: but first I want to ask Jim about some fundamental 350 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: jaguar biology. Talk to me about jaguar biology. Where do 351 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: they live, what are they eating? What do they do 352 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: to make a living? Yeah, so jaguar the epicenter of 353 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: jaguar distribution is South America. If you look at their 354 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: map that their core areas South America and Central America, 355 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: they'll they'll be in little lower densities going down all 356 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: the way to Argentina. So they're adapted to this several 357 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: different tropical forest types down there. But that's that's really 358 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: the core of where they live. But they're so adaptable 359 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: they've been able to adapt northward and there's a if 360 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: you look at the distribution. There's this long finger from 361 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: South America that goes up the east coast of Mexico 362 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: and goes into South Texas historically, and then there's another 363 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 1: long finger that goes up the west coast of Mexico 364 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: into just the southern part of Arizona and New Mexico. 365 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: And it's really incredible that you've got an animal that 366 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: is typically kind of a jungle animal that has adapted 367 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: to some of these more arid forest types all the 368 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: way up the east and west coast of Mexico and 369 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: dipping into dipping into Arizona and New Mexico and dipping 370 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: into Texas historically. So they're made prey because of that. 371 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: That center of distribution is tapers and peckery is what 372 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: we call have elena in the in the southwest, coatis armadillos, 373 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: some of those things that you see kind of in 374 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: a jungle environment. These northern borderline jaguars of course, are 375 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: feeding mostly on Kyle's whitetail deer, the small version of 376 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: white tail deer we have in the Southwest. We've got 377 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: collared peckery that we call have alena that are up 378 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: here in these mountain ranges, So those things probably make 379 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: up a vast majority of their diets. For the borderline jaguars, interestingly, 380 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: they're eating skunks, they're eating little coatis, they're eating basically 381 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: anything they can get their hands on. And and I 382 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: remember hearing that even UH warners jaguar encounter in NIX 383 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: that he mentioned that that smelt like skunk described the 384 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: morphology of jaguar, like what does he look like as 385 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: compared to the mountain lion? Most people would be pretty 386 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: familiar with the mountain lion. Proportion of that, the jaguar's 387 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: head is going to be huge, and the proportion of 388 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: the tail is going to be shorter actually than a 389 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: mountain lion. So uh, a jaguars tail is it to 390 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: be not longer than half of the body length of 391 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: the head. If you take the head and the body together, 392 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: and they have those those um the spotting which they 393 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: call rosettes, which because they look like a flower, so 394 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 1: they're kind of an open, broken rosette, but they have 395 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: black dots on the inside, as opposed to a leopard 396 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: would have those open rosettes but no spots on the inside. 397 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: And so that that body pattern too is like a fingerprint. 398 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: And that's why when we get trail camp pictures of 399 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: a jaguar, and and and oftentimes they're setting up trail 400 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: cam on both sides of where they think of jaguar 401 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: might walk through because they want pictures of both sides 402 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: of the cat to get a recording of that fingerprint 403 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: of those spots, so those are with they'll pick out. 404 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: They'll look at the side of a jaguar from a 405 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: trail camp picture and they'll pick out a couple really 406 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: unique spots. One particular jaguar had a spot they called 407 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: the Pinocchio spot because it looked like two eyes and 408 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: then this long nose coming off it. So they'll have 409 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: some unique spots like that, and then um, whenever there's 410 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: a photograph of the jaguar, they'll look for some of 411 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: those unique markings to keep track of individual jaguars just 412 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: from photographs. A rosette is a circular pattern of black spots. 413 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: This could be a combination of four to six spots. 414 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: A jaguar has a black spot in the middle of 415 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,239 Speaker 1: its rosettes. An African leopard has rosettes too, but not 416 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: a black spot in the middle of the rosette. It 417 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like much difference, but standing side by side, 418 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: a jaguar and a leopard look different. Google a picture 419 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: of a jaguar and a leopard and you'll see what 420 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: I mean. I've read that the spotting of a jaguar, 421 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: specifically with these rosettes, is designed for dappled light, which 422 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: is just incredible because having been down there with Warner, 423 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: the sun is all. It's very rarely overcast down there. 424 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: There's not a lot of rainfall, and so with direct 425 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: sunlight and when you have vegetation, what you get is 426 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: dappled light. And uh man, I bet they're just invisible 427 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, you can picture them on the forest 428 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: floor with all that dappled on an already kind of 429 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: mosaic of brown leaves. You would think like an orange 430 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: ish cat with black spots would be so obvious, but 431 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: very much not. So. It's just like the fun like 432 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: you get a fallen deer. Those spots are there for 433 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: a for a purpose, to hide them for a couple 434 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: of months until they get big enough that they can 435 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: get away from predators. So, Jim, this, this doesn't sound 436 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: fair chase to me. Jim, I think I'm calling bull 437 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: on these jaguars. Many they got to give these cous 438 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: deer and have Elena's and Jaggerundi's a chance we should 439 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: make them wear bells when they walked through the wood. No, 440 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: I was fascinated with that. It amazes me. With the 441 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: greatest possible human technology and reasoning, us using our minds 442 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: to try to develop camouflage, we really can't replicate the 443 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: simplicity of nature. When I look at whitetail deer here 444 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: by my house in Arkansas where I live, like, I'm 445 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: amazed how they how they just they just disappear in 446 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: the color tones are just right, and the color tones vary. 447 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: You know, from Arkansas up in Canada, where a hunt 448 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: the other deer, it looked just a little bit different. 449 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: It just blows my mind. And then when you see 450 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: something as complex as the coloring of a predator that 451 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: makes his living not only by hiding from other stuff 452 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: that my harmon, but hiding from prey, you kind of 453 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: see the full gamut of nature doing its best work. 454 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: I feel like, I know there's a burning question in 455 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: your mind right now. You're saying, Clay, ask Jim about 456 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: black panthers. In episode one of the Bear Grease podcasts, 457 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: we established that the only large black cat documented by 458 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: science that wouldn't have to swim an ocean to get 459 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: to the United States would be a melanistic jaguar. So 460 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: here's what Jim had to say, Gary Nucom, I hope 461 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: you're listening. No offense to aunt Ali and the residents 462 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: of Buck Snort, Arkansas, the black panther capital of the 463 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: United States. Okay, I've got to bring this up. Melanistic jaguars. Okay, Jim, 464 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much you much time you spend 465 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: in Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, all these places, but you 466 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: know there's all this talk of black panthers on the 467 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: previous Barregheras podcast. We've established with biologists that there's no 468 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: science has never documented a melanistic mountain lion, but everybody 469 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: in their brother has seen a black one. Jim, the 470 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: only possible wild large cat that could be black that 471 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: would be within two thousand miles of Arkansas would be 472 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 1: a melanistic jaguar. To increase that distance, it's not two 473 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: thousand miles that jaguars do have a black face. Even 474 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: the black jaguars have spots. You can see the spots 475 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: when the sun hits the right even on the black 476 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: face jaguar. But there has never been a black phase 477 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: jaguar sited north of Chiapas, which is southern the very 478 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: southern tip of Mexico, right where it touches Central America. 479 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: So north of of right where Mexico runs into Central America. 480 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: North of that, there has never been a black jaguar documented. 481 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: It's been confirmed to be a wild jaguar. Now, I 482 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: have seen there was a local sports and the warehouse 483 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: that had a pure black mountain lion, full body mount 484 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: and I knew the taxidervice had has played on there 485 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: and I called. I called the tax service right away 486 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: when I saw that, and I said, what is the 487 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: deal with this black mountainlin because this is the first 488 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: melanistic mountain lion I've ever seen documented at all. And 489 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: he said, no, we just died the felt black just 490 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: for a conversation. Peace. Oh man, he's stoke in the fire. 491 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: Stoke in the fire. Now, I'm absolutely amazed at at 492 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: the power of folklore and the power of people's imagination, 493 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: and I think desire to believe people well. I worked 494 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: as a wildlife research technician at Mississippi State university for 495 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: a about a year and a half starting up a 496 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: buck mortality to study around the whole state and spend 497 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: a lot of time in the delta with a lot 498 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: of good a lot of good folks, And so I'm 499 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: no stranger. There's a black panther. How many black panthers 500 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: did you see down there? Now that that's settled, we 501 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: can move on to other pertinent jaguar biology questions. How 502 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,719 Speaker 1: does a jaguar hunt. There's certainly ambush predators, and they 503 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: do seem to be focused, like we're talking around water 504 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: because probvious reading the praise coming into water, especially in 505 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: a narrowed ecosystem like this, and so they will ambush 506 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: um certainly near water. But that's where the camouflage comes 507 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: into play. They're hiding their ambushing a single animal. They're 508 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: not a coursing predator like a wolf that would run 509 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: and run and run. They're just gonna sneak out and 510 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: and leap on the animal and then they're gonna deliver 511 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: crushing bite, usually on the back of the neck. And 512 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: the more experience of jaguar is, the better it is 513 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: at at clipping that and incapacitate ing the prey. Well 514 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: it holds onto it with the five switchblades that has 515 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: in each front ball. Jim brought up the issue of water. 516 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: Jaguars are considered the world's most aquatic big cat. Despite 517 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: feline's reputation for hating water, jaguars are competent swimming and 518 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: hunting in water. Of note two is that jaguars are 519 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: the most nocturnal of the big cats. They just don't 520 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: move much in the daytime, making them even more elusive 521 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: and mysterious to humans. If you want to see some 522 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: wild video, go search for jaguars hunting Cayman little alligator 523 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: like things in South America. It's some of the wildest 524 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: nature kill seeing stuff you'll ever see. Another interesting thing 525 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: of note, when inspecting a livestock kill, it is possible 526 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: to distinguish a jaguar from a mountain lion kill. Jaguar 527 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: kills typically have the first and second vertebrae of the 528 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: neck broke, and they eat in a different order than 529 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: a mountain lion. Jaguars start at the head and show 530 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: an unusual preference for the tongue, ears, and nose. Mountain 531 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: lions usually start eating a carcass just behind the rib 532 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: cage and they prefer the internal organs to each his own. 533 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: I guess. So they have a very big jaw structure 534 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: that's bigger than a bigger than a mountain lion. That 535 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: huge head is not fat, that's all muscle massiter muscle, 536 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: and that's all those huge muscles that worked that jaw 537 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: and and create that crushing power. There was an account 538 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: of veterinarian that had what's called speculum, a thing that 539 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: you put in an animal's mouth to hold his mouth 540 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: open in order to get a tube in there take 541 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: a sample, And he had a speculum in of jaguar's 542 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: mouth that was a half inch steel, and the jaguar 543 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: crushed that half inch steel. So I don't know what 544 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: the bite strength is, but it's pretty amazing when you've 545 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: got a head full of muscle that big like jaguars. 546 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: A lot of people would understand what a mountain lion 547 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: print would look like. How how would a jaguar print 548 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: be different. Yeah, just to an experience mountaine hunter, jaguar 549 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: print is gonna look different right away. And so they're 550 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: they're larger overall, but that's that's not the only thing. Proportionately, 551 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: they're different. The jaguar heel pad makes up a greater 552 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: proportion of the overall print on the ground. And also 553 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: the toes of the jaguar are are more roundish and 554 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: also kind of larger in proportion to the print, where 555 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: supposed to the mountain light toes might look a little 556 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: more almond shaped, a little more oval shaped, and jaguars 557 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: toe pads be a little bit a little bit rounder. 558 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the the range of jaguars. So pre 559 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: European settlement, there would have been jaguars in Texas, New Mexico, 560 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: in Arizona, and I want to talk about how far 561 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: they naturally would have come up into the United States 562 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: and kind of what records do we have and and 563 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: and how do we know they were here? I did 564 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: read that in the eighteen fifties jaguars would have been 565 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: fairly common quote unquote common in Texas and that there 566 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: were six jaguars killed in Texas in the nineteen hundreds. 567 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: How far north did these jaguars go? Yeah, I don't 568 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: think there are. All the evidence I've seen indicates they 569 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: weren't common at any time. Even when the first European 570 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: explorers were coming in and contacting you would have you 571 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: would have a jaguar was killed, and it was it 572 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: was often reported in the newspaper as the first one 573 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: ever in the country, and sometimes it wasn't. It was 574 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: just they were so far and few and far between 575 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: that people weren't even aware of any other jaguars ever 576 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: being killed in the country, and when one was cited 577 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: or one was killed, it was big fanfare and people 578 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: made a big deal out of it, which is which 579 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: is evidence even in the eighteen fifties that there just 580 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: wasn't um This wasn't a common animal that was a 581 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: commonly part of our natural fauna. But there's evidence in 582 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: Arizona all the way up to the Grand Canyon, which 583 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: is the northern part of the state. And we have 584 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: to clarify too, we're not talking about places scene distribution 585 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: where they were all over the country. If we just 586 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: talked about, say that eighteen hundreds or so on, when 587 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: when Europeans were coming in and more importantly, when some 588 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: of the stuff was being documented in writing, when we 589 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: actually start getting records of what kind of things were killed. 590 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: But we've got records all the way up to uh 591 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: Actually it was a Hopie Native Americans that killed jaguar 592 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: up by the Grand Canyon, and records from there south 593 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: but extremely sparse and almost entirely male in in Arizona. 594 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: We haven't the last female that was killed in Arizona 595 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: was There's never been a documented female killed in in 596 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: New Mexico in our in our written record. When you 597 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: look at the distribution of jaguars and you see these 598 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: little fingers coming way up through Mexico on the east 599 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: and west coast and just touching the US, it's a 600 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: pretty strong indication that we didn't have a big, robust 601 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: breeding population of jaguars. We had just the fringe were 602 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: feathered out as it got across the US border. We 603 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: did have some females that were documented in the US 604 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: near the border, and and actually that one by the 605 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon, and we did have some records of a 606 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: few young and so there were females that probably bred 607 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: in the US, but it would be a stretch to 608 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: say that we had a breeding population of jaguars. We 609 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: had a few that were feathering out into Arizona, New Mexico, 610 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: and some of those happened to be females, and there 611 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: were some kittens that were their their prime habitat is 612 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: not this arid, open country habitat that you see in Arizona, 613 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: New Mexico. I mean, they're a jungle cat, primarily a 614 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: jungle cat. They've adapted to these uh, these mountain ranges 615 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: up here, and so they'll live in small, isolated, usually 616 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 1: fragmented populations and and they're persisting. Some people probably wouldn't 617 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: want to argue that it's not their habitat because they're 618 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: living here and they're doing okay. But boy, they're just 619 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: they're just the jaguar distribution is reaching up on the 620 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: tippy toes and just touching the United States that the 621 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 1: at the very southern border. And and that was historically 622 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 1: when you think of there's reports in the eighteen fifties 623 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: where people make a complete scientists make a complete list 624 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: of the carnivores and they don't list jaguars, and and 625 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: then one one does show up. It's a it's a 626 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: really big deal. And if you look at the Native 627 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: American cultures in the Southwest, there's really not much jaguar motif. 628 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: There's nothing much jaguar symbolism at all. That tells you 629 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: that if the Native Americans, that's such a powerful animal. 630 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: And in in Central American South America, it figures prominently 631 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: in all of their culture and all of their stories. 632 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: And you have some of the Native American tribes that 633 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: have no stories that include the jaguar and really no 634 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: symbolism that has a jaguar. Once in a while, there 635 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: there are a few pictures of spotted cats, and so 636 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: probably just like today, once in a while there would 637 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: be a spotted cat that someone would kill or someone 638 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: would see, and and that that was of course a 639 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: big deal to them, and they would talk about it. 640 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: They may make some symbolism. You know. It's kind of 641 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: surprising to me that the indigenous cultures that region didn't 642 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: make a bigger deal about it for the very reason 643 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: that it was rare. Presumably they would have encountered them 644 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: at different times. I've got a theory though, I think 645 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: that they just said all the guys that saw them 646 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: were liars, and so, just like we do today to 647 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: people say I saw a jaguar down there, and you go, no, 648 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: you didn't, you saw a mountain lion. I'm sure there 649 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: was some some warrior braves around the campfire mocking some 650 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: guy that said he saw the podcat. Yeah. Yeah, the 651 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: absence of jaguar symbolism in the southwest United States is peculiar, 652 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: but only as it's contrasted with the indigenous people more 653 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: central to the range of Panthera anca in Central America. 654 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 1: The Old Amec people adopted the jaguar as their principal totem. 655 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: Totem means a natural item of spiritual significance. They dressed 656 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: their nobles and warriors in jaguar skins. They made art 657 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: that depicted half human half jaguar deities. They named temples 658 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: after jaguars. They believed that jaguars could impart hunting prowess 659 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: to humans when humans dreamed about them, and they had 660 00:37:54,719 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: rights involving sacrificing jaguars and humans. There is evidence that 661 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: they raise captive jaguars just for this purpose. That's some 662 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: wild stuff right there. But you know what they say, 663 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: when in jaguar country do what they do in jaguar country, 664 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: that's a joke. But the point is that where there 665 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: are a lot of jaguars, they dominate the culture, and 666 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: then the tribal cultures of the southwest US they don't. 667 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: I think now is an appropriate time to try to 668 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: understand how humans are interacting with jaguars in modern times. 669 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: Here's what Jim said, Talk to me about the greatest 670 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: threats to jaguars today. The jaguars range wide, Um, it 671 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: doesn't really matter where they are. One of the greatest 672 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: threats is loss of habitat, especially in the rainforest. UM. 673 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: That's that's not new news, the rainforest destruction, but also 674 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: other stresses on their habitat and in other places that 675 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: fragment their habitat, even the north. But the second really 676 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: big issue is just retaliatory killings for livestock depredation. You 677 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: have people living very close to the land, living on 678 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 1: the landscape. Their entire bank account is that little herd 679 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: of cattle that they have, and you get a jaguar 680 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: coming and start killing and it's just like removing money 681 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: out of their bank account, and so they they're they're 682 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 1: just trying to make a living. You're talking about Mexico, right, 683 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: not in not in the US, but Mexico and Central 684 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: America and South America. You have these people living with 685 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: small groups of cattle and that's their entire income, and 686 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: when a jaguar comes in and just start taking all 687 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: their money away, UM, that doesn't go over very well. 688 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: And it's a retaliatory killing. That is, there's a drain 689 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: on the local population. Now, there's a lot of really 690 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: good conservation groups that are working hard and working with 691 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: local landowners to increase tolerance and to compensate. But in 692 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: some of these countries, they don't have a lot of 693 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 1: money for compensation. They don't have a lot of money 694 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: for some of these programs, and so it's it's difficult. 695 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: And that's that's really where the rubber meets a road 696 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: in conservation these days, is is finding innovative solutions to 697 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: allow people to coexist with large carnivores that are impacting 698 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: natively impacting their their existence. Here's the bottom line for conservation. 699 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: The fate of jaguars in the United States is dependent 700 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: upon the population in Sonora, Mexico, where they're way more jaguars. 701 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: All our jaguars come from there, and they all return 702 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: there at some point. There's a lot of good conservation 703 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: work going on in Mexico for the jaguars. However, a 704 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: big consideration on the migration pattern is the border wall 705 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: between the United States and Mexico. Here's the low down. Currently, 706 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 1: there's about six hundred and fifty miles of the two 707 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: thousand mile long border that is fenced. Of the six 708 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty fenced miles, three hundred of it is 709 00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: just a vehicle barrier, meaning wildlife can pass through it. More, 710 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: that means that three d and fifty miles of the 711 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: border wall has a wall meant to keep out people. 712 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: This type of wall is definitely difficult for wildlife to cross. However, 713 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: I saw it with my own eyes creek crossings on 714 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: the border wall while I was down there in Arizona 715 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: that a bullout could have walked through. It is a 716 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: complex issue, no doubt. Do you think we really have 717 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: a bead on if there's lions here right now? We 718 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: have all of these mountain ranges completely full of cameras. 719 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: There's a lot of cameras out there, and people have 720 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 1: come to understand how jaguars use the landscape and how 721 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: they move through and they and they can most efficiently 722 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: place some cameras where they can. Is this the agency 723 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: that's got cameras? I mean, like like Arizona Game and Fish, Well, 724 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: the agency has some. Of the University of Arizona has some. 725 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: There's a whole bunch of different entities that all have 726 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: UM cameras out there, and then you have a lot 727 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: of um sportsmen out there with with their cameras. So 728 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: do we think there are jaguars? They're here right now. 729 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: There's one that I know of that has been here 730 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: a while and last photographed in December, so that jaguar 731 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: may still be there. But the last one I knew 732 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: about was up to photographed up to December, so it 733 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: could be as few as like one jaguar in the 734 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: United States. Because of the way that the cameras are 735 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: canvassed in all of these mountain ranges along the border, 736 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: and a lot in Sonora in Chihuahua on the southern 737 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: part of the border, I feel pretty confident that if 738 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: there's a jag we're walking around these these mountain ranges, 739 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna get some photos of it. Jim, I'll tell 740 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: you the only way I'll believe that there's no jaguars 741 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: in Arizona if Warner Glenn tells me he went down 742 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: there hunting and didn't tree one. I know. I don't 743 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: buy into your fancy camera stuff. Jim, Warner is better 744 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: than any camera, but hey, we need to go back 745 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: further and map out the regulatory history of jaguar ours 746 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: in the United States and Mexico. If we want to 747 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: make sense of all this, here's the short version. There's 748 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: been a fair bit of legal jaguar hunting in semi 749 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: modern times. Until nineteen sixty six, jaguars were game animals 750 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: in Mexico and could be hunted from November one through 751 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: December thirty one, and the limit was one per person. 752 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, the season was closed except for 753 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: depredation purposes by farmers or those with livestock. In nineteen 754 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: eighty the jaguar was classified as an endangered species in In 755 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty seven, all legal methods of jaguar hunting 756 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: were banned in Mexico. Here's Arizona's history. In nineteen nineteen, 757 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: jags were classified as a fur bearing animal, meaning it 758 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: could be hunted. Between nineteen twenty nine and nineteen sixty nine, 759 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: they were classified as predators and could be killed by 760 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: anyone at any time. In nineteen sixty nine, how over, 761 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: they were protected by the state. The last legally killed 762 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: jaguar was in the Patagonia Mountains of Arizona in nineteen 763 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: sixty five. Federally, in nineteen seventy two, the jaguar was 764 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: listed on the endangered species list, so it got federal protection. 765 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: Now for New Mexico's history, stay with me. The last 766 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 1: known jaguar killed here was in nineteen o nine, and 767 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 1: they were officially protected by the law starting in nineteen 768 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: ninety nine. There just weren't that many there, so they 769 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 1: didn't have much reason to make regulations about them. And 770 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,360 Speaker 1: what I haven't told you yet is that Mr Warner 771 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: actually caught two jaguars. We heard his first story from 772 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: nineteen but he caught another jaguar in New Mexico in 773 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: two thousand six, ten years later. That's a big deal. 774 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: I want to hear Mr Warner's opinion regarding the intersection 775 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,320 Speaker 1: of conservation and government regulation. He has something to say. 776 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,919 Speaker 1: We're going a little further on the jaguar deal. There's 777 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,439 Speaker 1: a lot of after the one. About two years later, 778 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,759 Speaker 1: they put him on the danger species list. So far, 779 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: they haven't declared critical habitat. I tell you the endangered species. 780 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: That didn't bother me. If that's okay, critical habit that 781 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: bothers me, because what they do when they declared critical habitat, 782 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: then they penalize anything else, like the hunters or the renters, 783 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,240 Speaker 1: or the whatever they start, or the log and guys, 784 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,760 Speaker 1: they stopped that all that activity just for this one animal. 785 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: And that's the worst thing that you can do for 786 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: the animal, because that makes the people there want to shoot, 787 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: shovel and shut up. I mean, why should they say 788 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 1: they got one if they're going to get penalized for 789 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: having it. If we're looking at a global overview of 790 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,839 Speaker 1: wildlife management across the planet, a unique part of the 791 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: North American model of wildlife conservation has been the system's 792 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: ability to incentivize the average person to value wildlife because 793 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: they've got stake in its well being. The stakeholders personal 794 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: well being benefits from the animal's presence. That has been 795 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: a valuable cog in our model. What Mr Warner is 796 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 1: saying that by penalizing landowners with overbearing quote critical habitat regulation, 797 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: you de incentivize people's willingness to cooperate. There's a strong 798 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: argument by biologist the experts that Arizona and New Mexico 799 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,240 Speaker 1: aren't critical habitat and never were there simply have never 800 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: been very many jaguars here. So let's do a little 801 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: inventory and I'll tell you what we're gonna do. We 802 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: heard Mr Warner's story of baying a jaguar, and we 803 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,879 Speaker 1: learned that he actually caught another one in two thousand six. 804 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: Jim has given us the lowdown on jaguar biology and 805 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: their current status, and we've explored the regulatory history of 806 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: jaguar hunting. I think we've now built a platform that 807 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: will allow us to go back in time a bit. 808 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: We couldn't do a podcast on Borderland's jaguars without talking 809 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 1: about Dale Lee. Remember his name. Dale was from Tucson, Arizona, 810 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,800 Speaker 1: and died at age seventy nine in nine. I wanted 811 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 1: to learn a thing or two about Dale so I 812 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,359 Speaker 1: connected with my friend Brett Vaughan. He's a dry ground 813 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: lion hunter himself from New Mexico. Here's what Brett had 814 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: to say about Dale Lee. There was like seven of 815 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: those brothers, those Lee brothers, and I guess at one 816 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,839 Speaker 1: time or another they all hunted Dell. I mean, he 817 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: was the one who took it serious, and he was 818 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: the one who went on and and made a living 819 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,399 Speaker 1: doing it. And they started out catching lions. They were 820 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: right there by Warner, you know. They were on the 821 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: east side of the Cherich Howa's shoot. I think they 822 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: caught their first lion, or what they call tied up 823 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: their first lion when when Dale was really young and 824 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: and and they had a brother named Ernest, and Ernest 825 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: was the one who kind of took care of the business. 826 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: They started guiding hunters and taking hunters, and one thing 827 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: led to another. They caught lots lots of lions and 828 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,439 Speaker 1: lots of bears, and uh then they started going down 829 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,840 Speaker 1: in Mexico and catching jaguars. It was a totally different deal. 830 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: The way they hunted down there. You know, they had 831 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,400 Speaker 1: canoe or they called them canoes with their flat bottom boats, 832 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,439 Speaker 1: and they had a gourd that they and I guess 833 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: they learned this from the natives down there, and it 834 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: was a gourd, and they had a raw hide thong 835 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: and they would pull that. They would they'd float down 836 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: this swampy country and on the rivers, and they pulled 837 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: that thong through the gourd and it would make a 838 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: roar or a sound like a jaguar, and these these 839 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: jaguars would answer it, and that's how they would locate them. 840 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: And then after they located them, they would they would 841 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: go out and uh from talking to several people that 842 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,719 Speaker 1: had hunted with them. They would go out and keep 843 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,560 Speaker 1: the dogs on the leash until they got the jaguars started, 844 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:08,359 Speaker 1: and then they let the dogs loose. And they had 845 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,880 Speaker 1: some natives guys down there that were just phenomenal endurance athletes. 846 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: Those guys would more or less go with the dogs 847 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: and and dale them. I think would stay with the 848 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: hunters for they quit going I think in about nineteen 849 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: sixty two due to regulations. They said the regulations just 850 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: got too tough for them to go down there. But 851 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,360 Speaker 1: in that period of time they've caught and harvested I 852 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: think over a hundred and twenty four jaguars, and their 853 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,360 Speaker 1: best year was I think they caught thirteen or fourteen 854 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: jaguars one year. That was their best year. The Lee 855 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 1: Brothers were commercial outfitters for jaguars, mountain lions, and bears. 856 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,920 Speaker 1: They hunted jaguars from the nineteen forties into the early 857 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties in Mexico and bears and lions through the 858 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,240 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties in the United States. I asked Brett about 859 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,040 Speaker 1: the difference between hunting mountain lions and jaguars. He talked 860 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: about how jaguars typically don't but will pay on the ground, 861 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: and how they're much more dangerous for the dogs. And 862 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: then he said this, So I think that is probably 863 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 1: one of the main differences. And then the conditions of 864 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,240 Speaker 1: the area where they hunted. I'm sure it was terrible. 865 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: I hunted with a man one time that hunted some 866 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: jaguar down there. He's an older man, Mr Fletcher, and I, 867 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:23,879 Speaker 1: you know, I was pretty young, and I told him, 868 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: I said, man, I'd love to go down there and 869 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: hunt jaguars one of these days. And he just looked 870 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:28,919 Speaker 1: at me and he said, man, you're not tough enough. 871 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 1: He just straight up told you that, straight up told me, 872 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:39,600 Speaker 1: he said you're not tough enough. And I probably believe him. 873 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,120 Speaker 1: Why is Deli and name that we still talk about. 874 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: What was he known for? Just being an a houndsman, 875 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,000 Speaker 1: I mean being ahounsement and a lion hunter mainly. I 876 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: mean he caught a lot of bears. I read somewhere 877 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 1: where they caught he had caught over a thousand bears 878 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 1: and cut over a thousand lions. He just devoted his 879 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: life to it, you know. And and and I listened 880 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: to a story told about you know, they had to 881 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,239 Speaker 1: learn the heart. They just had to learn on their own. 882 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 1: They have nobody to teach him, and Dale devoted his 883 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: life to it. And he was also real instrumental in 884 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:18,240 Speaker 1: developing the blue Tech breed as lion Hounds. Daily hasn't 885 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 1: been around to chase lions or jaguars for over thirty years, 886 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,279 Speaker 1: but we're in for a treat. Brett hooked us up 887 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: with something really special. We're about to meet Dale Lee. 888 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: For those of you who did not know Dale, these 889 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,359 Speaker 1: tapes are in Dale's own voice. For those of you 890 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: that were fortunate enough to have met Dale, you will 891 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: recognize his distinctive voice and his unique way of telling 892 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: these true stories. I can still visualized Dale even now 893 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: around the campfire telling these stories. So please enjoy these 894 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: true stories and realize they were told by the greatest 895 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,840 Speaker 1: lion hunter ever lived. Daily. Well, now, this is about 896 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,800 Speaker 1: a hunt that took place somewhere around fifty six fifty seven, 897 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,920 Speaker 1: and it was in the swamps of Nowyarit, Mexico. And 898 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,799 Speaker 1: our guests were two our farmers. Now, one of them 899 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,400 Speaker 1: was a man that was around sixty five years old, 900 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,479 Speaker 1: and he was tall and slim and wasn't carrying any 901 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,040 Speaker 1: extra weight, and his partner was a man that was 902 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:31,239 Speaker 1: probably around maybe forty five, and he was tall and 903 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: firety slender, but he was carrying a lot more extra 904 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,640 Speaker 1: weight than the older man. And so then I was 905 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,440 Speaker 1: a talking to him about the hunt, and I told him, 906 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,720 Speaker 1: I said, well, now here is the procedures of the hunt, 907 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,879 Speaker 1: and about how we would call at night and then 908 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 1: if we didn't get an answer, we would take our 909 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 1: dogs and make a circle from our main camp. We 910 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: went down about two hours by boat. Now we had 911 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,120 Speaker 1: our men and all in one boat, and then two 912 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: Mexican boys and our dogs and another one. And these 913 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,239 Speaker 1: were kind of flat bottomed canoes that I had had 914 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,640 Speaker 1: special made out of a special kind of flywood with 915 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,279 Speaker 1: plastic glass. While we went down and we call that 916 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 1: night from about two o'clock until daylight, and didn't hear anything. 917 00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,760 Speaker 1: So we the next morning it just as it started 918 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: breaking day. We took our dogs and started out well 919 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,799 Speaker 1: within them an hour or less time we hit the 920 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,759 Speaker 1: tracks of a big mail jag work and it was 921 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,759 Speaker 1: a winning track and it went into one of the 922 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 1: worst parts of the swamps in that area. Well, anyway, 923 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 1: when they went down into there, they they went at 924 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 1: least two miles right straight away, and they were going fast. 925 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,040 Speaker 1: And I was coming along with one old Mexican fella 926 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,400 Speaker 1: and Marseille and these two hunters is fast I could go. 927 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,719 Speaker 1: And I had charteris settle from over Tennessee and and uh, 928 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,520 Speaker 1: Mexican are running the dogs to protect them. Always sent 929 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,320 Speaker 1: some fleet footed people with those dogs to keep them 930 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,040 Speaker 1: from all getting killed and losing them. And I had 931 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:18,239 Speaker 1: the little curt had six hounds and a curd dog. 932 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,320 Speaker 1: And this curd dog was a friend of Spaniel and shepherd, 933 00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: real long hard, and he was a jagguer dog, but 934 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,440 Speaker 1: he didn't bark on anything but a jump track. Now 935 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,120 Speaker 1: in a minute, they just went right straight away and 936 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:37,080 Speaker 1: they were running, and this little old curd dog was saying, yef, yef, yef, 937 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,799 Speaker 1: And I said, boys, they're jumped, let's go. And that 938 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,080 Speaker 1: thing running in front of them for at least i'd 939 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,799 Speaker 1: say at least three quarters of a model before they 940 00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,960 Speaker 1: stopped him, and uh, they treating them, and he was 941 00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,520 Speaker 1: a good specimen. And we came up and walked right 942 00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,440 Speaker 1: up to the within pointy feet at the foot of 943 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,440 Speaker 1: the tree and up about i'd say thirty ft twenty 944 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:05,160 Speaker 1: five to thirty to this jag where right broadside. Well, 945 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,040 Speaker 1: he raised old gun up and gorge it would just 946 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,799 Speaker 1: be shaken in the shimmering is it? Put it up 947 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,239 Speaker 1: to his shoulders, and he pulled that trigger, and that 948 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,799 Speaker 1: jagg were just died out that three and hit right 949 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,440 Speaker 1: in front of Charteris settled, And Old Charlie shot at 950 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: him and missed him right right in front of him, 951 00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,920 Speaker 1: and away the dog and the jaggers went went, and 952 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,319 Speaker 1: they did go down into an awful bad place. Why 953 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 1: you're going through that mud up to your waist and 954 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,160 Speaker 1: if you wasn't careful, it's a lot deeper. And they 955 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:38,000 Speaker 1: but they didn't go. We're about seventy five yards and 956 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,480 Speaker 1: they stopped him, and old that jagger was a growling 957 00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:43,840 Speaker 1: in them dogs with a hollering and the balling and 958 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,239 Speaker 1: the screaming. Now that the noise was something terrible. And 959 00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:53,720 Speaker 1: now the minute I heard the shot down there, Old 960 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,759 Speaker 1: Dale seems like a well put together man with a 961 00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,760 Speaker 1: mind like a steel trap. He tells a hunting story 962 00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,919 Speaker 1: like he's calling a horse race. This was a very 963 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: condensed version of this single story. I mainly just wanted 964 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 1: us to hear Dale's voice and sample his passion. This man, 965 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,280 Speaker 1: like Mr Warner, was a no doubt lion and jaguar 966 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:21,000 Speaker 1: hunting legend. Mr Warner actually knew Dale e. These recordings 967 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: were put together by Dale's nephew Mike actually in the 968 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,440 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. They're a real treasure and they're over fifteen 969 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,719 Speaker 1: hours of his recordings. I'll tell you how to get 970 00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,720 Speaker 1: those at the end. In this final recording, Mr Dale 971 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,879 Speaker 1: uses a gourd and a piece of leather to make 972 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:45,959 Speaker 1: a jaguar call. It's a pretty amazing clip. Now this 973 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,799 Speaker 1: is supposed to be another jaguar, and that's what they 974 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,799 Speaker 1: think it is. And they will not all the time. 975 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,839 Speaker 1: They will laughter. But I'll call up watch government. I've 976 00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 1: had other men call them up and it al really work. 977 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,799 Speaker 1: And yet when you're hunting them, but you can call 978 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,960 Speaker 1: them up and have a good break track to put 979 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,960 Speaker 1: your dogs on them. And so this is what they 980 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:25,640 Speaker 1: sound like. Mm hmmm mm hmmm mmm mm hmmm. Well, 981 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,919 Speaker 1: now this is the way that they go when you're 982 00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:40,720 Speaker 1: calling them trying to get them up. In one there's 983 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,000 Speaker 1: a massive celebration going on in the hearts of those 984 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,400 Speaker 1: who love wild places. And it's because the mysterious visitors 985 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:53,320 Speaker 1: from the South still roam into the American Southwest. Though 986 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 1: the beasts are few in number, like we believe they've 987 00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,640 Speaker 1: always been, the rarity of the Borderland's jack wuire makes 988 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 1: it the most unique large mammal on our continent. In 989 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,360 Speaker 1: my opinion. I'll never see one, and I doubt you 990 00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,720 Speaker 1: will either, but my dreams will be ripe with the 991 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,240 Speaker 1: possibility of a fantastical encounter when I close my eyes 992 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:20,120 Speaker 1: because of the knowledge that they're here. Maybe in the 993 00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 1: night watches, I'll find myself a jaguar hunter with the 994 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 1: Olamech people or Mr Dale, And like the dream of 995 00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 1: a jaguar imparting hunting prowess to the sleeper. My hope 996 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,320 Speaker 1: is that our jaguar dreams would make us stronger as 997 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,920 Speaker 1: we seek to protect the wild places of North America 998 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: and fortify the life ways of the American hunter. Hunting 999 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,200 Speaker 1: is such a complex thing that can't be understood at 1000 00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:52,320 Speaker 1: a glance. It's nuanced and layered. Part of me longs 1001 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,160 Speaker 1: to be a jaguar hunter, but I know that I 1002 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,720 Speaker 1: would never take one even if I could. I also 1003 00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,080 Speaker 1: know they'll never ever be legally hunted again in the 1004 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:06,440 Speaker 1: United States, and that is a great thing. As hunters, 1005 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,840 Speaker 1: we value wildlife and will be the first to say 1006 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:14,720 Speaker 1: we're done. That. Mr Warner let two jaguars go that 1007 00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,760 Speaker 1: he bade is no small thing. He didn't shoot, shovel 1008 00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,840 Speaker 1: and shut up, but rather use the encounter to fuel conservation. 1009 00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:27,080 Speaker 1: This is the template for the modern American hunter. But 1010 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,160 Speaker 1: in the same breath, we can look back and celebrate 1011 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 1: the life of a great hunter like Dale Lee, who 1012 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:38,560 Speaker 1: traveled down into Mexico and lived an incredibly adventurous life. 1013 00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: The dedication toughness both mental and physical, the planning of 1014 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,600 Speaker 1: such a hunt, and the spirit of adventure of men 1015 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,120 Speaker 1: like all the lead brothers is admirable, and I know 1016 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: that they have character traits in their lives that we 1017 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,000 Speaker 1: do well to adapt into our own. This is the 1018 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,440 Speaker 1: final podcast that will have Mr Warner on, and I 1019 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:02,640 Speaker 1: hope that you've enjoyed them as much as I have. 1020 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Mr Warner and Kelly will be people that I'll never forget. 1021 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,360 Speaker 1: My hope is that these discussions will garner a deeper 1022 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,200 Speaker 1: appreciation in us for wild places and beasts, and that 1023 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,880 Speaker 1: will become smarter and wiser and more inspired to help 1024 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:21,760 Speaker 1: them thrive. My hope also is that will find deeper 1025 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,280 Speaker 1: value in the human relationships that we have in our lives, 1026 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,560 Speaker 1: because they are of great value. Long live the beast, 1027 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,600 Speaker 1: the chief of which on this continent is the mighty 1028 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:39,840 Speaker 1: Borderland's jaguar, And long live the great men and women 1029 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,880 Speaker 1: who seek to partake an impartation from the wildness of 1030 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:50,200 Speaker 1: that sucker's life. Thank you so much for listening to 1031 01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,920 Speaker 1: Bear Grease. Please leave us a review on iTunes and 1032 01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,400 Speaker 1: tell a buddy about this podcast. This week, I've got 1033 01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:01,440 Speaker 1: a couple of housekeeping items. You can buy Mr Warner's 1034 01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:07,040 Speaker 1: book Eyes of Fire at this website www dot Roots 1035 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:11,800 Speaker 1: Run Deep a z dot com. That's Roots Run Deep 1036 01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:17,000 Speaker 1: a z dot com. Secondly, check out my friend Brett 1037 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:22,920 Speaker 1: Vaughn's YouTube channel called Born one hundred Years Too Late. Lastly, 1038 01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,360 Speaker 1: you can buy the recordings of Mr Dalles Stories, which 1039 01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:30,320 Speaker 1: encompasses at least fifteen hours of content, but you'll need 1040 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: to contact Brett through Facebook or Instagram at Born a 1041 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:36,560 Speaker 1: hundred Years Too Late. So check out the book from 1042 01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,120 Speaker 1: Mr Warner and check out Born a hundred Years Too 1043 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:40,360 Speaker 1: Late with old Brett Vaughn