WEBVTT - Crypto-Assets Regulation Is Healthy Development, Need Clarity: Burniske 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.720 Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.520 Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.120 bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:17.840 you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.720 or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:33.680 Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. Cryptocurrency 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.160 investors seem to think that the asset class is looking 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.960 bubblicious and bitcoin itself is in a bubble, but they 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.040 don't see it popping anytime soon. Here to talk about 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:49.000 this with us is a cryptocurrency investor himself, Chris Berniski, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.320 partner of Placeholder. He also is an advisor to our 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.600 investment management, which does invest in bitcoin, and he joins 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:57.800 us here in our eleven three oh studios. So, Chris, 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:00.400 would you agree that bitcoin is in a double and 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:02.680 yet it won't pop anytime soon so it doesn't matter? 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:05.760 There are any number of ways we could approach this question. 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.520 On one hand, we could say money is the bubble 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.160 that never pops and uh as a store of value 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.680 or or that being one of its use cases for bitcoin, 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.520 there is a lot of demand within the traditional capital 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:22.680 markets for a risk off store value, a disaster hedge, 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.280 so to speak, just as people use gold. So that's 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.200 one side of it. Um. Now bitcoin is is off 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:32.520 over from its all time highs. Now, there are over 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.440 a thousand other crypto assets right and many of those 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:41.039 um are near all time highs. They're not off um 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.240 although today we've had a correction and many of those, 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.800 I would argue are much more in a bubble um 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.600 in terms of where their prices relative to where their 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.160 actual utility is. Chris, maybe just step back for just 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.160 a second, because I always like to find out, you know, 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.280 the definition of these things, like a definition of bitcoin, 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:01.120 and I was trying to put it into a context 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.880 that appeals to my analog brain, and I was thinking 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:10.080 of stamps, actual physical paper stamps is a limited number 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.720 that are issued, and if you go back in time, 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.800 stamps or even revenue script was something that could be 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.960 traded and could be used for multiple transactions, and at 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.960 each point you could even place a little snip or 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.480 you could cut away a little piece of paper that 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:32.160 would sort of detail who actually used that stamp. Is 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.280 that a good way to look at what a bitcoin 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.680 is or what a cryptocurrency, what role it plays. I 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:41.960 think that stamps have some properties which relate closely to 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.840 to a cryptocurrency, but um, a cryptocurrency like bitcoin. Bitcoin 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.400 is more broad in its use cases, and so I 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.600 really would think of it um per the economic definition 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.120 of a currency being a means of exchange, a store value, 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.640 and a unit of account. Right now, bitcoin serves as 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.560 a great store of value, a medio to to to 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.560 to low value mean medium of exchange, and not a 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.200 great unit of account outside of the crypto space because 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.480 it's so volatile. One aspect that has definitely been present 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.720 on people's minds is this idea of regulation. And the 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.239 SEC came out last week and said that initial coin 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.920 offerings in particular look a lot like securities. In fact, 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.040 they are securities, but they're not they're not sticking with 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:29.400 they're not following securities laws. How much does the sec 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:34.920 is apparent interest in cryptocurrencies, Uh, basically cap the potential 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.000 gains just because this has been a really largely unregulated space, 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.360 and that will change. I think, um, it doesn't. It 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:45.240 doesn't cap the opportunity to actually expands the opportunity in 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.120 that we need this space to be better regulated. We 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.000 need more clarity. The entrepreneurs, the investors, all of the 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.520 all of us are craving more more clarity, and so 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.160 regulation is just part of the maturation of this asset class. 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.960 And and for me, there may be uh temporary jitters 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.960 um around the sec coming in and enforcement action, but 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.200 longer term, I think this is a healthy development. What's 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.640 the ultimate goal? Is it for a bitcoin to act 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.919 as basically a gold substitute, a store of value, especially 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.720 for people in countries where the currency is incredibly volatile? 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:25.919 Is it to replace paper currencies and replace national currencies? 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.440 Where are we heading with this? Well, I'm going to 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.080 pull it back to the idea of crypto assets, which 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.760 is what I wrote the book on UM. I think 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.719 of crypto assets as a new asset class that organizes 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.279 human activity. And so the goal, I would argue, more 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:45.000 than replacing fiat currencies is replacing equities um as again 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.279 as a means to to organize and incentivize human activity. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.000 UM around information networks. Bitcoin is an information network that 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.800 transmits currency ETHEREUM is an information network that coordinates compute 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.919 logic and developers file coins and formation network that stores files. 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.480 So we go far beyond the idea of cryptocurrencies, which 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.200 is why I call them crypto assets into cryptocurrencies, crypto commodities, 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.479 crypto tokens, and the information networks that they support. Chris, 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:19.640 Cryptocurrencies and financial technology fintech seemed to come together, at 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.200 least in various news reports, particularly when it comes to 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.880 markets in Asia. And I'm wondering if you could just 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.560 give us a little insight into what you believe the 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:35.560 future will look like in a place that is readily 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.040 accepting of cryptocurrencies. I mean, could we have a cryptocurrency, 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.280 let's say that's even back partly by gold, for example. 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.240 I think the possibilities are unless I think, um, you 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.800 brought up Asia. Asia has certainly been um, one of 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.200 the hard hottest areas for this space. UM. Something that 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.120 I've been trying to get to the bottom of is 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.599 how much of this is entrepreneurs and people building real 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:03.040 utility versus how much of this is speculators Because we know, 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.000 um that some of the Asian nations have a tendency 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.000 UM or an appetite for speculation. UM. But certainly in 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.920 countries like Korea or China where digital payments mobile payments 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.320 are prolific. I think that there's a high likelihood that 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:21.320 they adopt cryptocurrencies on a on a mass scale earlier 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.880 than we do in the US. Just going back to 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.360 what you were saying about crypto assets, I'm trying to 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.479 envision what this means. Does it mean that there could 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.520 be some kind of crypto tender that could be used 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.919 within an industry, like a retail cryptocurrency specific or you know, 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.400 specific to automobiles or something like that, and then you 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:46.800 could invest in a sector based uh type of tender? 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:48.160 Is that? Is that what you'r is that where you're 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:49.719 going with this? I think that's one way to look 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:54.400 at it. That that would be say sector specific currencies UM, 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.240 and you could design properties of that currency UM to 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.920 fit that sector. And there could even be loyalty points 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.400 baked into it. There's all kinds of things right These 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:09.200 UM these protocols are really just software that replaced middlemen, 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.040 that commoditized middlemen and the functions of middlemen in different areas. 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.720 But I just wonder how much a barrier is of 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:21.960 having regular consumers wrap their heads around a different form 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:27.720 of tender for different types. It's a complicated issue. How 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:30.480 do you get enough people on board. Well, that's the 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.560 currency aspect, right, and I don't necessarily know that we 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.320 end up having sector specific currencies or more these universal currencies, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.880 some like Bitcoin that are really good at storing value, 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.920 others like z cash which are anonymous, others like light 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.520 coin which are a little faster or whatever it may be. UM. 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.360 But again, to pull us back with this opportunity, it's 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.040 not only currencies, right, Many of these are commodities UM, 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.240 creating markets for digital commodities, just as we have markets 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.520 for physical commodities. So why can't I trade cloud storage 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.760 futures or bandwidth future um or GPU flop futures, and 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:06.160 really what crypto commodities things like file coin or gollum 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.640 or these things. A lot of those are creating digital 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.000 markets for these digital commodities. And in terms of getting 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:17.400 the retail or that the average investor, average user on board, UM, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.440 I think we're very similar to you know, late eighties, 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.960 early nineties trying to get people on board with the Internet. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.280 Most people had no clue what it was going to 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.280 be used for, how to be relevant to their lives, 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.000 And it is built to be relevant into their lives 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.120 by entrepreneurs and Investors. Thanks very much for being with us. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.320 Chris Berniski is a partner for a Placeholder and advisor 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.000 to our investment management and he is the author of 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:44.360 the book Crypto Assets, The Innovative Investors Guide to Bitcoin 0:08:44.960 --> 0:09:02.040 and Beyond. We turned our attention now to Joshua Green, 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.679 our national correspondent for Bloomberg Business. We can be followed 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.679 on Twitter at Joshua Green. He is also the author 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.360 of Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and the Storming 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.640 of the Presidency. Josh Green, maybe you want to give 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.480 us an update, is if there anything that we need 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.200 to know about the ongoing feud between the Trump White House, 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:28.320 Steve Bannon, the Republican Party, all because of this book 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.960 Fire and Fury by Michael Wolfe. Well, it doesn't seem 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.200 like it's going to be resold anytime soon. Uh. You know, 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:39.040 Bannon put out a statement apologizing to Donald Trump Jr. 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.080 Who we described as treason as for holding a meeting 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.920 with Russian officials in um. Doesn't seem to be much 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.679 indications in the White House that's doing anything to smooth 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.120 the waters. But I've been talking to people in Bannon 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.360 orbits who say you know, he is determined to get 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.240 himself back into Trump's good graces, and you know the 0:09:58.280 --> 0:09:59.920 only way to do that is to keep on a pole, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:04.040 lologizing and trying to ingratiate yourself to Trump, who actually 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.360 does have a long history of continuing to talk to 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.600 people he's fired and eventually bringing them back into the fall. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.040 So it's unlikely, but not impossible to think that Bannon 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.839 could somehow worm his way back into the president's good graces. Josh. 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.719 One thing that I have struggled to understand is this 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:25.199 all unfolds, is what Bannon's political clout really is. Because 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.160 a lot of people associated him with President Trump's base 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.960 of supporters. Bright Bart certainly was under his thumb. Bright 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.280 Bart seems to be distancing themselves from Bannon. So does 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.120 Bannon really represent at this point the base as so 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:47.520 many people initially believed. Well, that's unclear. But it's also 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.200 what I think drove the split between Trump and Bannon. 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.120 You know, Trump obviously thinks that nobody but Trump himself 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.000 deserves credit for his presidential victory um and Bannon, on 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.280 the other hand, thought that Trump was a bit on 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.400 a set of ideas that Trump turned out not really 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.360 to believe in that much this idea of a kind 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.440 of a right wing populist nationalism. So Bennon's project, ever 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.840 since he left the White House last August, was trying 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.960 to advance this national movement beyond Trump and he had 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.160 he had uh spent a lot of time recruiting candidates 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:24.319 to run against Republican incumbents Canadas who would work to 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:28.240 out sent a majority leader Mitch McConnell, who Bannon's thought 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:32.360 was impeding his nationalist project. Um. I think the problem 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.160 is that that Bannon, Bannon's ego kind of got out 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.800 ahead of where maybe it belonged. And what we what 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.000 we're gonna find out from this latest episode is now 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.240 that Trump has split with him so publicly and so decisively, 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.719 is there really a populist movement that's loyal to these 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.400 ideas that will split off and go with Bennon or 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.920 is it really more a cult of personality that's likely 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.280 to stay loyal to the president. Josh Green, what does 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:59.960 this do for a potential legislation regarding infrastructure, welfare reform, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.440 more men, even funding for the US Mexico border wall. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.040 I don't think it does a whole lot I mean, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.240 on the margins, it might make that a little bit 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.200 easier to pass. Um. It's going to be necessary to 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.120 do that in a bipartisan manner. And one of the 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.240 things that Bannon did it Bryite Barton News, was put 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.520 a lot of pressure on the right wing of the 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.640 Republican Party not to come together, not to make deals 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:27.040 with Democrats. With that voice silenced or diminished, it ought, 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.640 in theory be easier for for the President and Republicans 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.800 and Democrats in Congress to agree on something and move 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.360 it forward. Josh, what about Bannon's allies in the White 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.840 House or former allies. I'm thinking in particular of Steve Miller, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.400 does this potentially threaten their fate in the White House? 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.880 Or as Steve Miller effectively got against Bannon and edified 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:54.160 his standing with President Trump. No, Trump made clear you're 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.720 either with Bannon or you're with me, and Miller is 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.880 very much with Trump. You know, went on CNN interview 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:06.959 Jake Tapper yesterday, Uh basically was abasing himself to Trump, um, 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.080 you know, behaving like a factotum. In fact, the interview 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.760 was cut short in Miller. Miller was apparently marched out 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.840 of CNN by security, so he's left absolutely no doubt 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.520 as to where his loyalties lie. They lie with Trump, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.200 not Bannon. I think that Jack Tapper at the end 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.280 of the interview said there's one viewer you're catering to 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.600 right now, and he was talking, of course, to regarding 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.720 a president of Trump. Thank you so much for joining us. 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.640 It's wonderful to hear your perspective as the expert frankly 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.800 on Ban and Steve Bannon and giving some color of 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.240 what we can expect going forward and why this is significant. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:14:01.200 Josh Green, national correspondent for Bloomberg Business Week. Press one 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:05.640 for information about your account, press to to make a payment. 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.559 Robert Locacio he joins US now. He is founder and 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.240 chief executive officer of Live person, which is based in 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.520 New York and seeks to make that your experience when 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:21.040 you call companies, that customer service should be automated with 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.440 artificial intelligence rather than have a real person on the 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.960 other line. Robert, your business has sound tremendously well in 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.760 the past year. Your share prices have surged. Is that 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.440 the future? Yeah, you know, I mean, I've been in 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.320 the business for twenty years and working contact centers and 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:43.080 I invented chat and and seeing the change in consumers. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.960 But um, the future is really about consumers be able 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.440 to have a conversation with a human or or a 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.320 bot or something that's automated. And I think ultimately about 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.360 conversations will become automated because we want it. We don't 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.040 want to be on hold, we don't want to make 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.520 phone calls and these and so our behavior is driving 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.440 us to do things differently. What's the price point comparison 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:09.560 between having a human being answer the phone call and 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.440 read off of a computer screen as opposed to having 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:16.680 a machine listened to your voice and follow various prompts. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.080 So it's six dollars is the average UH cost of 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:25.400 a phone call? UM There are about two hundred and 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.040 eighty billion phone calls that take place every year to 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.280 contact center, so about one point two trillion dollars is 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:36.320 spent on phone calls. An automated message or or bought 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.760 UM or even an agent answering through messaging or something 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.280 like chat is about a dollar fifty, So a dollar 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.720 fifty versus six dollars, dollar fifty versus six dollars and 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:50.920 this and when I go back to this number, It's 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.960 one point two trillion dollars is spent on phone calls 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.960 that we as consumers have to make that we don't like, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.760 and the agents who answer those calls don't like it, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.520 and the company's imagined nobody likes it. It's just hold 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.440 on a second. But I think the part of the 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:10.040 criticism of automated responders to these phone calls is their efficacy. 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.920 And you know, is this is this a problem? You know, 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.240 at what point do you end up on hold at 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.720 the end of a long automated intro anyway, because your 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.480 request is so nuanced that you do require a live 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.920 human being. So in the analog world of voice, when 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.280 you try those automated systems, they're horrible. I mean you 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.080 think about people screaming into the phone no, yeah, and 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.240 then it's noisy, right, So this was just another bad 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.160 This is like bad analog with bad analog, like an 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.640 automated analog system like voice. But when you go to 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.720 something like we do messaging, where let's say with T Mobile, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.040 you can message to a T Mobile rep. We can 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.080 see the text, so we we can automate a response back. 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.480 We can bring a human in when it's appropriate. But 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.000 when you have text, and you have that over a 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.720 digital framework like like messaging. Um, you can you can 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.800 do AI, but you're right, voice analog voice. This just 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.760 needs to go away. I think it's evil. You know, 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.960 I've said it for me. Voice calls are evil? Wow? Okay, 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.760 are are evil? Can can we just I'm totally is 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.480 it's it's the greatest waste of our time is being 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.720 on hold. We lose years of our life sitting on hold. 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:24.000 We all know it. It's horrible. Okay, it's horrible. Having 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.159 said that, I want to go back to sitting on 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.560 a couch and I key a couch specifically. And I'm 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.000 wondering if you could tell a story about how you 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:36.680 launched your first business and what failure has taught you. Yes, 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.199 So I started a company out of college in and 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.200 it was interactive kiosks like touch screens for college campuses 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.359 and funded on credit cards. But it went under and 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.320 in I sort of picked myself up, and uh, I 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.080 was in Baltimore at the time, moved to New York 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.679 City and I sub let a loft from a guy 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.080 who made t shirts. A little space and a loft, 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.280 and I had only a couch and a computer and 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.080 I ended up sleeping on that couch for two years 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.800 and showering at a health club, uh, down the block, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.280 down in Tribeca. And that's how I got started with 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.200 with Live Person. So I mean, what was the lightbulb 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.679 moment for you for Live Person? The light bulb moment 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.080 for me was I remember going onto the internet. Uh, 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:24.240 this is and uh And I remember obviously there was 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.399 stuff being said about at that time although it was 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:30.600 just coming especially commerce was just starting. But I didn't 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.639 see anybody on. There was nobody there. It felt like 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.600 a very lonely experience to me, and that when I 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:37.840 showed up, but like Dell's website at the time, like 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:39.960 there's nobody here. And that drove me to think about 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:44.320 how do you bring the human element two the digital element, 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:49.240 which was which was the web. But on the failure side, UM, 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.480 failure for me has always been I've been twenty years, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:56.240 sixteen years of public company CEO. UM. You know you 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.080 only learned through your failures. So it's it's for me 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.080 and you just can't quit. I always tell other CEOs 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.120 or entrepreneurs when you hit the bottom, you just gotta 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.400 work through it and there's another day. But you can't 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.760 quit at the bottom. You've gotta keep going. What's the 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:16.040 next iteration of automated response. The first thing we have 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:17.639 to do is we are working on right now on 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:23.120 what we're creating conversational design that feels very um natural. 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.160 So we as humans need conversations. We know this now. 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:31.480 We need conversations to transact, We need to ask questions 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.080 and on the other side, to automate them. We need 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:36.639 a way to too create. I call it like a 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.159 poetic experience that a consumer can ask questioning and something 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.280 comes back that's empathetic, that seems human um, that doesn't 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.639 try to fake them out because it isn't human. And 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.520 so the way we design those conversations are very much 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.199 I say, it's like because I was English literature major, Like, 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:54.919 it's like designing poetry. You know, you want to look 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.800 at the best conversations from the live agents who had conversations. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.760 You want to look at the brand, the brand expression 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.720 in the market and bring that into our conversation. But 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.520 I I can. I I'm gonna make a prediction which 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.399 people are gonna think I'm a little a little crazy, 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:13.720 but I I actually think conversational commerce and messaging and 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.160 having conversations will replace great parts of the Internet will 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:22.440 replace the web. Websites have failed um Outside of Amazon, 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.800 most businesses don't transact through their websites. Thanks not, there's 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.119 an opportunity here. We've got to leave it there, but 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.040 look forward to having you in the future. Robert low Castio. 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:35.359 He is the founder and the chief executive of Live 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:54.160 Person and he is indeed live not a robot. Well, 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.840 there was a rousing speech from oprah Winfree at the 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.880 Golden Globes, this having to do with the really first 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.280 major awards ceremony and bringing to the four the me 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.119 to moment. And here to help us understand the financial 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:12.119 implications is Deborah Cat's founding partner employee rights attorney for Cats, 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.360 Marshall and Banks, joining us from Washington, d C. Home 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:18.480 to Bloomberg ninety nine one and one oh five point 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.560 seven fm h D two. Debra, thank you very much 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.959 for being with us. Can you connect the topic of 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:31.359 sexual harassment in the workplace with discrimination when it comes 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:36.000 to equal pay for equal work? Sure? First of all, 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.359 thank you for having me. And this is a topic 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.840 that is very important and it all too often we 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:47.200 siloed the topics of sexual harassment and sex based wage inequities, 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.879 and yet they're very connected. Sexual harassment is about abuse 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.919 of power, and often power is abused because you do 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.919 not have women in the c suite. Only five percent 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.720 of fortune companies have CEOs in those positions, and because 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.680 of the great power disparity, you have an environment that's 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.720 more likely to allow sexual harassment to continue. Women who 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.880 face sexual harassment are six and a half times more 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:15.960 likely to leave their jobs. And when they leave their jobs, 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.560 they're not typically trading up. They're usually trying to get 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.560 out of a very bad situation, and they often have 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.960 to go to lesser paying jobs and start all over again. 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:30.879 They lose equity, they lose title, and ultimately they have 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:35.520 a much bigger loss in economics over their entire career 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.080 as a result of the sexual harassment experience. So they're 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:42.119 very much tied together, Debrah. Can you give us a 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:47.040 sense of how prevalent the trend that you're describing really 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.280 is with people with women leaving their jobs as a 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.880 result of sexual harassment and thus not able to sort 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:58.359 of fulfill their uh their potential in their careers. Sure well, 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.200 low income workers to be stuck staying in their jobs 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:07.320 UM and do not have the luxury and to get 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:12.200 out of some very egregiously harassing situations. But I represent 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:18.600 women UH in financial services, doctors, lawyers, who are highly educated, 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.600 who are being subjected to sexual harassment, who try to 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.159 navigate the situation, who try to avoid the harass er 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.119 and maintain and at a certain point they may just 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:32.800 decide that they cannot live with that situation. And sexual 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:38.920 harassment UH effects women in law firms, medical practices, financial services, 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.159 and it's extremely prevalent, and it's underreported, and many women 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:46.440 reasonably feel that if they come forward and report their concerns, 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:49.200 they're going to be persona non grata, not only at 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:53.320 their particular company, but within an industry. So many women 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:56.400 choose to just vote with their feet and they leave, 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:58.879 and they try to get out of a bad situation 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.439 and get somewhere else. And I can't give you a 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:07.800 percentage of of women who actually UH go to lesser jobs, 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.760 but in my experience that's that's not uncommon, and that 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:15.000 they wind up landing in less lucrative fields or positions, 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.200