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Speaker 1: Happy Monday, and welcome to another week of the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: We are getting awfully close to the one hundred day mark.

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Speaker 1: And just just to put this in perspective, think about

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Speaker 1: how tumultuous this first ninety plus days has been on

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Speaker 1: the American economy, on the American judicial system, on the

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Speaker 1: American democracy, on foreign affairs. Just think about the things

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Speaker 1: that have happened that we have not had follow up on.

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Speaker 1: I think about here as a DC person who uses

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Speaker 1: National Airport a lot. I'll be honest with you, I'm

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Speaker 1: still I would like to know what happened the night

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Speaker 1: that we had that deadly plane crash where a military

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Speaker 1: helicopter was essentially got in the way of the landing

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Speaker 1: of a commercial airliner. We've not gotten the after action report.

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Speaker 1: There's not been the congressional investment mitigations that you would expect.

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Speaker 1: Yet we really haven't had anything. And you know, and

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Speaker 1: part of this you can maybe chalk up to the

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Speaker 1: news cycle. Part of it is the whole Trump administrations

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Speaker 1: throw a thousand things at the wall, and things get lost,

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Speaker 1: and you sit there and it appears as if we

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Speaker 1: only have the band that generically the media only has

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Speaker 1: the bandwidth to do one story at a time. So

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Speaker 1: when we were in the middle of the rescue operation,

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Speaker 1: we got a lot of details on everything we could

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Speaker 1: figure out in the seventy two hours in and around

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Speaker 1: that plane crash. But we haven't had any good reporting since.

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Speaker 1: Congress as usual has been sitting on its hands. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: we have an issue here where we have a very

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Speaker 1: tumultuous period in American government and in American history. It's

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Speaker 1: a busy executive branch and a busy judicial branch. The

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Speaker 1: legislative branch is sitting on its hands. Doesn't appear to

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Speaker 1: be doing anything other than figuring out how to not

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Speaker 1: at least the Republican majorities, not to alien Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: or Donald Trump's megabase. Beyond that, it doesn't look like

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Speaker 1: Congress is doing much. There's some rhetoric and about things

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Speaker 1: that they could be doing or should be doing. I

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Speaker 1: think we're all waiting for the oversight earing on signal

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Speaker 1: Gate and exactly what did Peak hag seth declassify to

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Speaker 1: put on vulnerable private communications systems. We think we have

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Speaker 1: the backstory is how the National Security Advisor put a

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Speaker 1: reporter on that group, but we still don't know why

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Speaker 1: there was so much ease with which the Secretary of

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Speaker 1: Defense shared what was classified information on that. We're still

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Speaker 1: waiting for those hearings. We're still waiting for that investigation.

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Speaker 1: We know that Donald Trump fired so many inspector generals

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Speaker 1: that it is slowing down investigations that would really be

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Speaker 1: sort of routine. I mean, the fact of the matter

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Speaker 1: is there's always issues that the government has to figure

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Speaker 1: out what went wrong. Bob Gates, the former Secretary of

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Speaker 1: Defense for George W. Bush and Barack Obama, once said,

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Speaker 1: once said that he tells President said, on any given day,

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Speaker 1: somebody is fucking up, and pardon my French, there in

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Speaker 1: your name, mister president. And he has said that to

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Speaker 1: President Bush, and he has said that to President Obama.

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Speaker 1: I meaning, the federal government is so big that no

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Speaker 1: matter how well it is run, how efficient things are,

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Speaker 1: there's somebody making a mistake in your name, causing you,

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Speaker 1: at a minimum a political problem and a maximum a

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Speaker 1: policy problem that impacts the public. And yet we seem

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Speaker 1: to be almost paralyzed in our ability to deal in

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Speaker 1: totality everything that's going on. In many ways, I would

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Speaker 1: argue the first ninety days of Donald Trump have been

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Speaker 1: my demolition man. He is just trying to demolish norms

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Speaker 1: all over the place. He is trying to he is

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Speaker 1: forcing the judiciary branch and trying to see how much

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Speaker 1: executive power he can get the judiciary to essentially approve

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Speaker 1: of or not stop. And the way any administration works,

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Speaker 1: this is why this is such a dangerous period in

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Speaker 1: the history of this country because if this judiciary essentially

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Speaker 1: allows some of these things to go, they become precedent,

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Speaker 1: and what happens is future presidents take whatever minimum they

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Speaker 1: have and then push even further. So you know, this

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Speaker 1: is why we're sitting here with essentially vulnerable to one

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Speaker 1: individual's belief on how the economy should work, rather than

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Speaker 1: having Congress make these decisions on tariffs. We're sitting here

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Speaker 1: because the congressional branch handed all this power to the

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Speaker 1: executive branch. It went back to not arguably this started

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Speaker 1: with nine to eleven. Actually it started before then, when

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Speaker 1: more trade authority was being handed to the Clinton administration.

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Speaker 1: Then nine to eleven, more national security authority got handed

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Speaker 1: the executive branch. With Barack Obama, he had an all

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Speaker 1: his party had full control of the trifecta he got

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Speaker 1: handed more executive power. Donald Trump grabbed more executive power

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Speaker 1: the first term. Joe Biden grabbed more and pushed the

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Speaker 1: envelope with what he tried to do with student loans,

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Speaker 1: which was another essentially executive branch power grab. And now,

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Speaker 1: of course, this one, which is really doesn't have any

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Speaker 1: precedent arguably unless you go back to FDR and Lincoln,

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Speaker 1: who did grab extra executive power under the guys of war,

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Speaker 1: and those were actual wars. Right now, we have these

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Speaker 1: various emergencies that the president has declared in order to

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Speaker 1: try to fast track deportations in this country, try to

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Speaker 1: fast track trade authority in this country, try to fast

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Speaker 1: track a few things here. So the point is he

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Speaker 1: has done you know, the Steve Bannon had taken Steve

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Speaker 1: Bannon's advice, which is just essentially just flood the zone

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Speaker 1: and try to knock your political opponents and make them

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Speaker 1: woozy and own sort of pick one. And this is

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Speaker 1: the cynical aspect of what the Trump administration is doing. Ironically,

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Speaker 1: if a democratic administration we're doing, I'm sure Stephen Miller

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Speaker 1: would be filing all sorts of legal briefs to claim

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Speaker 1: that this is an abusive executive power. All he's doing

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Speaker 1: is essentially testing the electric fence of executive power and

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Speaker 1: pushing the envelope, pushing the envelope at the border, pushing

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Speaker 1: the envelope when it comes to what say so a

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Speaker 1: government should have over a private organization like a university

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Speaker 1: Ala Harvard, pushing the envelope on trade and terrorf authority.

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Speaker 1: And you have a democratic party that is divided in

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Speaker 1: how to respond, right, you have some that are nervous

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Speaker 1: about drawing a full line in the sand, for instance,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to due process having to do with

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Speaker 1: Killmark Garcia, the accidentally deported Else Salvadoran migrant who is

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Speaker 1: now sitting in a prison cell in El Salvador. Over

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Speaker 1: on Friday, Chris van Holland, Democratic senator from Maryland did

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Speaker 1: meet with them. We saw that the El Salvador president

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Speaker 1: try to create a create some propaganda claiming they were

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Speaker 1: sipping margaritas, and sort of the absurdity of our information,

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Speaker 1: of our misinformation ecosystem that we all now have to

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Speaker 1: navigate these days. The fact that Chris van Holland had

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Speaker 1: to spend five minutes explaining, hey, look, if you notice

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Speaker 1: nobody took any SIPs out of this. This was essentially

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Speaker 1: the El Salvadoran government trying to create a warped picture

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Speaker 1: of the situation. The most important piece of news though,

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Speaker 1: out of that meeting is the fact that Garcia is

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Speaker 1: not in the more notorious prison that is nicknamed Seacott.

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Speaker 1: The fact that they put him in another prison, I

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Speaker 1: think tells you the El Salvadoran government is a bit

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Speaker 1: nervous and the Trump administration is a bit nervous. Want

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Speaker 1: to make sure nothing happens to him physically, so if

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Speaker 1: nothing else, the attention has probably kept him alive, or

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Speaker 1: at least kept him physically more safe than he would

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Speaker 1: be if he were in that more notorious prison. But

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Speaker 1: the question I keep coming back to is there is

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Speaker 1: a legal way to do this, but the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to do it. They don't want to abide

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Speaker 1: by a court order, they don't want to even get

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Speaker 1: caught trying. They don't even want to fake it. They

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Speaker 1: don't have the ambassador, you know, getting a meeting with

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Speaker 1: the President of Al Salvador and the president saying sorry,

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Speaker 1: we're not releasing it. At least that could they could

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Speaker 1: claim they were following the court order that said that

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Speaker 1: the government had to facilitate and essentially make an effort

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Speaker 1: give it the Old College try guys to try to

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Speaker 1: get him out. And they're not even doing that. They're

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Speaker 1: not trying at all. And that's what you got to

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Speaker 1: ask yourself. Why aren't they doing that? Do they just

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Speaker 1: think this is good politics for them? Well? I do

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Speaker 1: think that they believe that everything they've done so far

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Speaker 1: that individually, if Democrats try to push back on any

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Speaker 1: one thing individually, they can somehow win an argument at

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Speaker 1: least have their base come up and help them own

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Speaker 1: the Libs right. Just notice the sort of demagogic rhetoric

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Speaker 1: that the White House has been using having to do

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Speaker 1: with kill Mark Garcia. That the fact that anybody questioning

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Speaker 1: whether they followed the law in deporting him and giving

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Speaker 1: him due process, which I promise you they did not,

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Speaker 1: by my count. You'll hear this in the interview with

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Speaker 1: Ben Wittis. I think he's violated the first, the fourth,

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Speaker 1: the fifth, the sixth, the seventh, the eighth, and the

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Speaker 1: ninth amendments. Okay, And on Garcia alone, I think they

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Speaker 1: have violated the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth Amendments, okay,

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Speaker 1: all of them. The first Amendment has been violated in

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Speaker 1: other ways, including with their dealings with the Associated Press.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't see any evidence yet that they

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Speaker 1: have violated the second or the third, and we can

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Speaker 1: have a debate about whether they violated the tenth yet.

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Speaker 1: But again we're not even at day one hundred, so

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Speaker 1: give them time. There's always a chance. But the cynical

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Speaker 1: view of this administration is that they believe if they

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Speaker 1: have the Democrats all are all sort of standing up

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Speaker 1: for Garcia because of the lack of due process, that

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Speaker 1: instead they can say, hey, look, Democrats are willing to

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Speaker 1: fight harder for non citizens than they are for you.

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Speaker 1: They weren't fighting for you when they were letting these

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Speaker 1: folks in. And so it's a mindset where they believe

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Speaker 1: the ends justifies the means as long as they have

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Speaker 1: shut the border down, and they have used some very

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Speaker 1: aggressive means to shut the border down. But frankly, there

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Speaker 1: means that the Biden administration only started using in the

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Speaker 1: last six months of that administration. The fact is the

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Speaker 1: Biden administrations in the first two years refuse to let

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Speaker 1: DHS do its job. Secretary Orcus when he was deputy

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Speaker 1: with Jay Johnson and the second Obama administration, they knew

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Speaker 1: how to control the border, and he was trying to

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Speaker 1: implement the exact same policies that they did the first time.

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Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is that first White

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Speaker 1: House would not do it. There was absolutely an ideological

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Speaker 1: brick wall that Mayorcis ran into during the ron Klaan

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Speaker 1: era of the White House, and then when that went

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Speaker 1: from Clain designs, the thing that changed the most if

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Speaker 1: you actually look at border policy, that was the biggest

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Speaker 1: dramatic change. So I don't want to sit here and

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Speaker 1: say that the Democrats didn't help create the mess at

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Speaker 1: the border and certainly didn't do enough that could be done.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump left them a legal quagmire when he left

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Speaker 1: office during the COVID era at the border, But it's

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Speaker 1: not as if the Biden administration managed it very well

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Speaker 1: in the first two years. They did get their arms

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Speaker 1: around it eventually, but it was after there was a

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Speaker 1: new chief of staff and after frankly, it had already

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Speaker 1: become a political problem. So the Trump folks just believe

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Speaker 1: that if they can just make this an immigration issue.

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Speaker 1: First of all, Notice what we're not talking about tariffs.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about the economic disaster that is coming. Now.

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Speaker 1: This is a bit of a lagging indicator, right. All

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Speaker 1: of the current economic figures that have been coming out

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Speaker 1: are of what's happened in the previous thirty days, or

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Speaker 1: the previous sixty days, or the previous ninety days. The

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Speaker 1: fact is we're going to start to see arise in

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Speaker 1: prices probably in the next sixty to ninety days. You're

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Speaker 1: not seeing them right in the moment, right, because plenty

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Speaker 1: of American companies have inventory that they got in before

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Speaker 1: the tariffs hit, so prices are only just now starting

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Speaker 1: to creep up, and that, of course will then start

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Speaker 1: this spiral that could get really ugly for a while.

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Speaker 1: Rising prices, inflation, stagnant wages, layoffs. You can see where

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Speaker 1: this is headed. But in the short term, as all

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Speaker 1: the folks, because it has been on the one issue,

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Speaker 1: because apparently only one issue can be done at a time,

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Speaker 1: there's been this debate in the Democratic Party about whether

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Speaker 1: how hard they should go. You have had Gavin Newsom

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Speaker 1: who sees the Kilmore Garcia story as a distraction. You

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Speaker 1: have others that say, if you don't draw a line

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Speaker 1: in the stands somewhere. Then what's the point of being

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Speaker 1: a political party you're in the opposition. The fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is, I do think the party needs to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to have one message, and I think

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Speaker 1: the chaos message which worked in the first administration, right,

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Speaker 1: The fact is the public doesn't like the chaos. Individual

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Speaker 1: goals that Donald Trump has outlined are things the public

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Speaker 1: would like to see a safe and secure border, more

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Speaker 1: manufacturing jobs in America. But how he's gone about doing it,

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Speaker 1: upending the world economy, upending due process and the rule

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Speaker 1: of law. That isn't what the public wants. They don't

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Speaker 1: like how this is being done, and the political opposition

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Speaker 1: I don't think has done a good enough job sort

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Speaker 1: of framing this as that as incompetency, because ultimately that's

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Speaker 1: what this has been, complete and utter incompetence. On the tariffs,

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Speaker 1: if you wanted to do this, there was a more

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Speaker 1: systematic way to do this. On the border, if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to do this, there was a more systematic way

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Speaker 1: to do this. But ultimately, the only conclusion one can

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Speaker 1: come to is it looks like the conclusion that our

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Speaker 1: friends at National Review came to over the weekend when

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Speaker 1: it seems as if the administration wants to test the

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Speaker 1: limits of executive power, so they don't care if they

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Speaker 1: knowingly essentially violate the law. And see how hard is

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Speaker 1: the judiciary going to push back? How hard is the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court going to push back? And I promise you

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Speaker 1: this is you know, I keep using this metaphor, but

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Speaker 1: if you give a if you give this administration a cookie,

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Speaker 1: they're going to come back and take more, and take more,

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Speaker 1: and take more and take more. So it is a

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Speaker 1: very cynical view of the executive that this administration has taken.

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Speaker 1: And you have people around the president that are looking

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Speaker 1: to essentially turn this country into a It's not a

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Speaker 1: republic if this is if the executive gets as strong,

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Speaker 1: it's a borderline monarchy. And in fact, I do find

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Speaker 1: it interesting that the governor of Massachusetts on April nineteenth,

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Speaker 1: the anniversary of the shot heard around the world, had

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Speaker 1: this to say at a rally. She said the following,

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Speaker 1: this is more healing democratic Governor of Massachusetts. She was

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Speaker 1: in conquered Massachusetts again, home conquered in Lexington, right home

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Speaker 1: of the shot heard around the world. We live in

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Speaker 1: a moment when our freedoms are once again under attack

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Speaker 1: from the highest office in the land. We see things

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Speaker 1: that would be familiar to our revolutionary predecessors, the silencing

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Speaker 1: of critics, the disappearing of people from our streets, demands

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Speaker 1: for unquestioning fealty. So that was an attempt by at

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Speaker 1: least one Democrat to try to take everything President Trump

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Speaker 1: has done and try to put it in a larger context.

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Speaker 1: And I think that what the Trump administration is counting

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Speaker 1: on is to be able to isolate each of these

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Speaker 1: criticisms into one and turn it into oh, so you

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Speaker 1: want terrorists to be roaming free around the country type

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Speaker 1: of type of you know, have you stopped? You know?

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Speaker 1: In one of the metaphors we like to use in media,

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Speaker 1: when did you stop beating your wife? Right? What's an

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Speaker 1: example of the worst kind of leading question what I

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Speaker 1: just said, when did you stop beating your wife?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 1: When did you stop supporting terrorists? Is essentially the conversation

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Speaker 1: that the Trump administration wants to have every time a

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Speaker 1: Democrat says, hey, how you did this? How you are

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Speaker 1: deporting these people is unconstitutional and against the law. What's

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Speaker 1: interesting is that there's plenty of Republicans that believe this,

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Speaker 1: most of them don't want to say a word. By

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Speaker 1: the way, have you noticed you may need to put

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Speaker 1: an a out for Lindsey Graham. One of the patterns

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Speaker 1: to Lindsey Graham in particular, if you want to know,

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Speaker 1: when he can't defend what Donald Trump is doing, he

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Speaker 1: goes radio silent, completely radio silent. He has sort of

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Speaker 1: two versions of it. Sometimes what he does is he

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Speaker 1: doesn't defend the actions, but he defends the goals. But

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Speaker 1: this is a guy who was in the Jaguar in

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Speaker 1: the military. I think actually does care about the rule

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Speaker 1: of law, and I think is probably I would like

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Speaker 1: to think. I don't know if he's personally outraged by

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Speaker 1: how this administration is dealing with the rule of law,

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Speaker 1: but it's clear he's not supportive of it because it

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Speaker 1: is crickets. You don't see him anywhere. You don't see him.

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Speaker 1: This is a guy who knows his state has benefited

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Speaker 1: from a open and free market economy with a company

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Speaker 1: like BMW and Mercedes both I believe, with plants in

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Speaker 1: South Carolina. And here's a guy who actually seems to

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Speaker 1: care about the rule of law, and clearly this administration

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Speaker 1: right now doesn't care if it's following the rule of law.

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Speaker 1: So you can see sometimes by the lack of positive

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Speaker 1: affirmation from some of these folks that they if they

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Speaker 1: can't defend it, they're staying silent because, as at Lisa

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Speaker 1: Markowski's admitted last week, speaking out comes with a threat

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Speaker 1: of retaliation, and that is something that many Republicans are

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Speaker 1: very very nervous about. All Right, I'm going to sneak

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Speaker 1: in a break when we come back. My conversation with

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Speaker 1: Ben Whittis says, we try to understand exactly if there

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Speaker 1: is any actual legal strategy behind what the executive branch

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Speaker 1: is up to, or if this is all lawsuits that

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Speaker 1: are designed for maximum political advantage and or pain. And

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Speaker 1: joining me now is the editor in chief of law Fair,

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Speaker 1: which is a publication that's devoted to legal issues having

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Speaker 1: to do with with national security. But these days, the

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Speaker 1: definition at least what the White House uses for national

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Speaker 1: security keeps broadening, which means in many ways, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be counting on Ben Whittiss here to be our

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Speaker 1: tour guide in understanding, frankly, all of the legal fights

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Speaker 1: that the Trump administration has decided to take on, whether

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Speaker 1: it's we'll concentrate for first and foremost on the immigration case,

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Speaker 1: but I'm hoping to tap into Ben's nimble legal mind

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Speaker 1: on all sorts of things, including what's going on with

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Speaker 1: Harvard and those form Ben. What is good to see you, sir,

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Speaker 1: Great to see you.

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Speaker 2: It's been a while.

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Speaker 1: It has been a while back when both you and

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Speaker 1: I took financial rewards from NBC. It might be one

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Speaker 1: way to put it, but one thing you can't be

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Speaker 1: upset is that Donald Trump is giving Lawfair plenty of

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Speaker 1: material to I mean, I guess he's made people paying

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Speaker 1: attention to the law great again.

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Speaker 2: Not to mention that he keeps using our name. You know,

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Speaker 2: when we named the site lawfair, which was back in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten, this was a very specialized term. And now

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump tweets about lawfair. He you know, he.

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Speaker 1: Completely decided the word means yes. Is that what it is? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, litigation against him, or it's any litigation he doesn't like,

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Speaker 2: is lawfair, And so he keeps you know, it's like

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Speaker 2: somebody tweets out Ben Wittis all the time, and it's

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Speaker 2: it's it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

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Speaker 1: Well, congratulations, that's nice. Thank you, that's nice.

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Speaker 2: We look at the bright side.

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Speaker 1: You have to. So I was preparing for this, and

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Speaker 1: I was looking at, you know, this handy dandy list

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Speaker 1: of rules that I thought we all abided by. It

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Speaker 1: was called the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, this crazy thing.

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Speaker 1: And I have him violating the first, the fourth, the fifth,

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Speaker 1: the sixth, the seventh, the eighth, and the ninth amendments.

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Speaker 1: I can't find evidence as violated the second and third,

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Speaker 1: and we'll see on the state front right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what about the tenth.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what I mean. I'm not going to sit

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Speaker 1: here and say I don't I don't have a good

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Speaker 1: I don't have an easy case to say he's violated

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Speaker 1: the tenth yet, although I think what he's doing with

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Speaker 1: the Department of Education arguably might be doing that. But

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Speaker 1: well that that might be a stretch. But when you

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Speaker 1: just look at this one case, I am I crazy

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Speaker 1: to say that he's that in some ways the Trump

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Speaker 1: Justice Department and what the immigrant I mean, we may

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Speaker 1: say a violation of the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth,

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Speaker 1: and ninth. I mean these are the amendments that are

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Speaker 1: there too, essentially put some boundaries on what the state

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Speaker 1: can do to somebody that they think might be a criminal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you would think that if the notion of

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Speaker 2: human liberty and rule in a society of ordered freedom

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Speaker 2: had any meaning at all, it would be that when

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Speaker 2: you have been you're living here, your deportation case has

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Speaker 2: been adjudicated six years ago, and the immigration courts have

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Speaker 2: said you can't be deported to El Salvador. You would

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Speaker 2: think that if the notion had any meaning at all,

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Speaker 2: it would mean that the government can't arrest you apropos

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Speaker 2: of nothing, with no criminal allegation that you did anything wrong,

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Speaker 2: stick you on a plane, and send you to a

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Speaker 2: kind of suit max prison in the one country that

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Speaker 2: they are not allowed to deport you to, without anybody,

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Speaker 2: without a judge ever hearing about it. And your wife

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Speaker 2: only finds out about it because the head of DHF

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Speaker 2: DHS goeses and poses in front of your jail cell

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Speaker 2: for a picture. You would think that that's what it

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Speaker 2: would mean, But apparently not so it is.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Supreme Court ruling here and the

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Speaker 1: word they chose to use. The administration does not believe

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has ordered them to have him returned

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Speaker 1: they believe that the Supreme Court simply says said, and

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Speaker 1: this is I'm sort of interpreting based on what you wrote.

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Speaker 1: You seem to think that their interpretation is, if El

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Speaker 1: Salvador chooses to send him back, the United States has

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Speaker 1: to accept him.

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Speaker 2: Correct, that is their interpretation. So the word that the

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Speaker 2: district judge used was facilitate. And the genuine complexity here is,

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Speaker 2: let's say, and how.

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Speaker 1: Do you interpret the Supreme Court order.

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Speaker 2: Well, so the Supreme Court says, the district court said

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Speaker 2: facilitate and effectuate. Yeah, And the Supreme Court says, be

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Speaker 2: careful with the word effectuate because that implies that the

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Speaker 2: court can order the government of El Salvador around. It

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Speaker 2: implies that the court can order the outcome of a

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Speaker 2: US foreign policy thing, and the president kind of runs

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Speaker 2: foreign policy. So be careful with the word effectuate. But

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Speaker 2: you but you're certainly within your rights district court to

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Speaker 2: order that the government facilitate his return. So the district

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Speaker 2: court turns around and says, okay, you have to facilitate

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Speaker 2: his return. And the government interprets the word facilitate as

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Speaker 2: in exactly as you said that if the government of

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Speaker 2: El Salvador wanted to send him back. We wouldn't erect

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Speaker 2: domestic obstacles to that, and Christy nom actually or Pambondi

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Speaker 2: even said we would send a plane. That is not

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Speaker 2: if you read the Supreme Court's ruling. I think what

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court had in mind, which is they were saying, basically,

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Speaker 2: we want to be careful of ordering around a sovereign

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Speaker 2: foreign government and ordering the mechanics of the way the

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Speaker 2: president interacts with that government. But the government clearly screwed

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Speaker 2: up here, and it's totally reasonable for the Court to

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Speaker 2: try to get it to correct its error.

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Speaker 1: So do you believe the Supreme Court watered their order down?

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Speaker 2: No? I think this is very much the order I

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Speaker 2: would have expected from this Supreme Court, which.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me stop this Supreme Court, would you That's

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Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, this is what you expected from

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Speaker 1: this version of the Roberts Court, not what you would

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Speaker 1: have expected from a generic Supreme Court on this issue.

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Speaker 2: So to be fair, I think there is the Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court the conservative justices here do have a quite legitimate

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Speaker 2: in my view, care about getting interfering in the way

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Speaker 2: the president conducts foreign policy.

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Speaker 1: And it is for the most part this Court's been

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Speaker 1: consistent on that stage. Yeah, very They're very light on

435
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: the executive branch in general.

436
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: Correct, and particularly in foreign policy and national security matters.

437
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: So I don't have a problem with that, actually, And

438
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: I think if John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett want

439
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: to say, you know, the District Court is wholly with

440
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 2: its right to demand a remedy here, it's got to

441
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: be a little bit careful about how it does that.

442
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: That doesn't bother me a bit, actually, and it cheered

443
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: me in fact, that nine justices of the Supreme Court

444
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: agreed on the premise which is a, this is not

445
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: okay for this to have happened, and B that the

446
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: district Court has some real latitude to require a remedy.

447
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: Now we're because the district judge, whose name is Paula Sinis,

448
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: has been pretty aggressive about doing that. The Justice Department

449
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: is now appealing the matter again, and you'll see, we'll

450
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: see this time around whether the Supreme Court means something

451
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: as narrow as what the government interprets it as having said,

452
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: and I don't believe that will happen, or whether it's

453
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: going to give her some latitude to say, hey, when

454
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: I said facilitate his return. I mean, you kind of

455
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: do some stuff to get him back.

456
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: So let's come up with some things that might fulfill facilitate.

457
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: Does that mean the ambassador formally petitions the Salvadorian government?

458
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: Is that? I mean, what what do you think will

459
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: generally fall under that umbrella actions?

460
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: So I think the first thing is something, right, So

461
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: what's happened so far is nothing except that the President

462
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: met with the Salvadoran president in the White House and

463
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: the two of them made fun of the court's order. Right,

464
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: So that's what's happened so far. So I think if

465
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: you were going to satisfy the Supreme Court that you

466
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: were facilitating, you would probably have to do more than

467
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: zero and then mock the court and, by the way,

468
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: baldfacedly lie about what the Supreme Court did. So look,

469
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: if you were dealing with a normal administration, what you

470
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: would expect would be for a official to either come

471
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: into court or file a declaration that listed all the

472
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: steps that they had taken and said, I mean, you've

473
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: read a hundred of these executive branch declarations. Here are

474
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: the steps we've taken to comply with the Court's order.

475
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: Here is the results that we've gotten. We're planning to

476
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: do the following things. And this is what the judge

477
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: has asked for. And I think if you did all

478
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: those things. First of all, if the president asked President

479
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: Bukele to send him back, they would. The Salvadorans don't

480
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: have a particular interest in detaining this guy. But the

481
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: hard place would be. You know, if you did all

482
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: those things, you pro went through that pro forma exercise,

483
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: but then you also had a wink and a nod

484
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: understanding with Bouquele that he would say no, and that

485
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: would put the court in a very difficult position because

486
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: all of its formal boxes would be checked and yet

487
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: the guy. But short of articulating something that you've done,

488
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: I don't think you can actually go back to the

489
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: district court and claim to be in compliance with the

490
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: order and expect the Supreme Court to accept that.

491
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: And now she's asking for daily update and the updates

492
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: are no for we have no updates from yesterday.

493
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: The updates are the first day, first update is he's

494
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: alive and in this Salvador in Supermax, and the subsequent

495
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: updates are we have nothing further for you.

496
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: You know, I look at this case, and I look

497
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: at the AP case just those two specifically, and you

498
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: and I both know that if the White House wanted

499
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: to pretend it was following the law, they could. I

500
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: am just shocked that they're choosing to brazenly essentially not

501
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: even try, not even fake it. Like with AP they

502
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: used an unconstitutional rationale to bar them, like it was

503
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: blatantly obvious, which is why it was easy court case

504
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: to win. Now they're you know, they the irony is

505
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: how they've responded since as actually why they they could

506
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: have done that the first time and never had an

507
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: AP doesn't have a leg to stand on. They seem

508
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: to almost want the confrontation with these judges, like they're

509
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: almost going out of their way to say I don't

510
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: care and it you know, to me, you just sit

511
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: there and like, I don't know why you to accumulate

512
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: more political You're just daring more members of the judiciary

513
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, these guys aren't even pretending

514
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: to respect what we do. So I you know, I'm

515
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: not asking you to figure that out. I mean that,

516
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, I think.

517
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: You but the problem is worse than you say yeah, okay, good,

518
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: because they're also doing the same things with the law firms.

519
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: And so the law firm issue is and they're they're extorting,

520
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in legal work

521
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 2: from from these firms.

522
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: So this another Justice Department could actually charge extortion here.

523
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: They chose to might think about it, but the you know.

524
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: If we're going to commit, if we're going to commit

525
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: law their and like.

526
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: The AP, these court the the firms that have gone

527
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: into court have won in a matter of hours. Right,

528
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: so you know, no, no firm has gone into court

529
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: and challenged one of these executive orders and not got

530
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: in a temporary restraining order in a matter of hours.

531
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: The Justice Department has not appealed to these, meaning that

532
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: they actually know they can't win. And yet law firms

533
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: keep capitulating and making these extravagant promises to the executive branch.

534
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: And why are they capitulating for exactly the reason that

535
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: you just described, which is that the president can screw

536
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: them and there's nothing they can do about it, just

537
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: like he's doing to the AP. Now, you can freeze

538
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: it out with a freeze them out with a wink.

539
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: And if you're one of the firms that challenges this,

540
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: you know, good luck getting a meeting on behalf of

541
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: your client with the senior levels of the Justice Department,

542
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: say before an indictment.

543
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: This is my frustration that one the law firms haven't

544
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: banded together. Two that the press, the traditional press, I mean,

545
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: you know, I've just I'm absolutely appalled by the folks

546
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: that are running traditional media companies not standing by ap

547
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: because about the only the only option you have is

548
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: collective action to at least make a point. I'm not

549
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: saying it might might not work, but if you can't

550
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: stand up for your basic constitutional rights the First Amendment,

551
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: if you're a member of the press, frankly, the fourth Amendment,

552
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: if you're a law firm you know or you know,

553
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: just the then what are you in this? What are

554
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: you even doing here? That? I mean that that's my

555
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: I just I'm so angry about the press aspect of

556
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: this because I was one of the people who stood

557
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: up who we stood up to Obama and said you

558
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: can't do that to Fox and we refuse to participate

559
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: in their pool unless they included Fox. And the inability

560
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: of collective action because we know what's happening. The media

561
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 1: executives who are not journalists have chosen to a buy

562
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: by their bosses who have said, please, don't pick a

563
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: fight right now. And I understand that from a fiduciary standpoint,

564
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: right from a business standpoint, but this is the slippery slope,

565
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: and we're now watching it in real time.

566
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and you can say with respect to

567
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 2: the press, the press is in a relatively weak position administration.

568
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: That's right.

569
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: Law firms are not, you know, law firm.

570
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: But why are they behaving as if they are?

571
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: Because they are wisses. And you know, because hundreds of

572
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: millions of dollars in law firm revenue is on the line.

573
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: And it is one thing when you are playing with

574
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 2: other people's money to take risks. But you know, law

575
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 2: firms are organized as partnerships, and that means that every

576
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: dollar that the law firm of X, Y and Z

577
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: doesn't bring in is you know, thirty three cents from X,

578
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: thirty three cents from Y, and thirty three cents from Z,

579
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 2: and so they are really looking at their own pockets here,

580
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: and you know, the only thing to do about it

581
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: is to shame them. But they're in a much stronger

582
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: position than the than journalists who represent actually an industry

583
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: in a somewhat precarious position. A lot of them are

584
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: not healthy organizations. These are, you know, the powerful acting

585
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 2: like the weakest of the week.

586
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: Arguably. I guess Harvard decided they were going to fight.

587
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: Do you think that? And it was interesting to me

588
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: the day after Harvard essentially said no, Columbia said oh yeah, no.

589
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: They were like, oh yeah, we're going. We're right behind you.

590
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: How Harvard, you know on that front? Do you expect

591
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: Harvard's decision to UH to have any effects on these

592
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: law firms?

593
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: No. I think the law firms are making different calculations

594
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 2: than the universities. Look, I think it's great that Harvard

595
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 2: did what it did. I think they're going to pay

596
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: a price for it.

597
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: They will, and I think they're just banking that it's

598
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: a two or three year price.

599
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, two or three year price and one that they're

600
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: going to have to litigate over because they're going to know,

601
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: because they're going to have to litigate over.

602
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: They're going to win the suit, but it's gonna cost

603
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: them a lot of money. I mean, it doesn't seem

604
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: like I don't know how they lose.

605
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: Here, but well, but they lose again. There is that similarity,

606
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: they lose even if they win. If you're you know,

607
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 2: the government is going to really tighten the screws on

608
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: all kinds of federal grants, research grants to universities. They're

609
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: going to dry up entirely in certain areas, and you're

610
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: going to find that, you know, Liberty University is a

611
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: very attractive location to do all kinds of research that

612
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: you would have once done at Harvard.

613
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: Right, And so that brings me back though to my

614
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: other question. It's funny you brought up Liberty like that

615
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: because I thought the same thing. You know, he's going

616
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: out of his way, he and Stephen Miller, and Stephen

617
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: Miller is obviously the guy seems to be executing all

618
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: of this because I think we all know Donald Trump's

619
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: too lazy to actually do some of the work that

620
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: it would take.

621
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: To n Miller didn't get into Harvard.

622
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 1: Right there you go, I don't. I don't either. Look,

623
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: he's a smart guy. I mean, I wouldn't, you know,

624
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want I wouldn't want to know he was

625
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: working on a case against me, right Like he's he

626
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: is willing to push the envelope. He's willing to you

627
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: know he's he's willing to do things that most ethical

628
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 1: people wouldn't do. He's willing to cross certain ethical lines.

629
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: But uh, why not just simply reward friendly university? And

630
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, they keep their going out of their way

631
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: to force these fights, which I guess they just see

632
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: it as political distractions that feed the base something to

633
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: eat while they destroy the global economy. And hope they're

634
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: not paying attention.

635
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: I don't think it's just that, all right, So, remember

636
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 2: when he's coming in and we are all worried about

637
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: them going after their political enemies, using the FBI, using

638
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: the Justice Department right to to attack his political enemies,

639
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: And there actually hasn't been very much of that in the.

640
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: Criminal I was just going to say, Chris Krebs might

641
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: have I didn't.

642
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: I didn't say that there's been none. I said there

643
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: hasn't been a lot. Right, most of what's happened on

644
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 2: the criminal side has been all about creating impunity for friends.

645
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: So this started with the January sixth pardons, and then

646
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 2: it proceeds to things like Eric Adams and shutting down

647
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: the entire you know, sort of public integrity apparatus of

648
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: the Justice Department firing a whole lot of prosecutors who

649
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: worked on January sixth cases. Right, It's all about creating

650
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: the impression that if you're on Trump's side, he will

651
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: protect you. But then you have this problem on the

652
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: criminal side on using it for offensive purposes, which is okay.

653
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: You can say we're going to have an investigation of

654
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 2: Chris Krebs, but you can't actually indict Chris Krebs because

655
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: you don't have shit right, right, And so what do

656
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: you do to go after your political enemies to make

657
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 2: them hurt if you can't really sick the FBI on them?

658
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: And the answer is that's where all these civil remedies

659
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: civil attacks come from. You can go after democratic law firms.

660
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: You can go and ruin their businesses. You can actually

661
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: put Chris Krebs out of business. He's a cybersecurity consultant.

662
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: He just had to resign from his job. You can

663
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 2: really make universities hurt. Universities employ some conservatives, but really

664
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: they're a power base of the left. And you can

665
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: go after the press, but not after the press who

666
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 2: were sympathetic. And so I think the way to understand

667
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: these attacks is these are the things that he would

668
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: the people he does want to put in jail, but

669
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: that's hard, and so this is the repressive apparatus that's

670
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 2: actually available to him.

671
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: So you just view this as because he can't put

672
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: the bidens in jail or get them harassed or all

673
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: of that business.

674
00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 2: This stuff is so much easy.

675
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: He can so mess around with government contract And yet

676
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: here's been an assumption that I've made about DOGE in general,

677
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: but AID specifically, and frankly even many of these, many

678
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: of these weaponizations that the Trump administration has done on

679
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: various things, is that there are the government is eventually

680
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: going to lose all these cases, and in some cases

681
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: they're going to lose and have to pay damages. Right,

682
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I assume there's small businesses are going to

683
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: essentially have breach of contracts with the federal government, and

684
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: they're going to be able to prove that what was

685
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: done was illegal, their owed restitution and et cetera. But

686
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: although this is going to take years, but I assume

687
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: that the government ends up paying more money in damages

688
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,919
Speaker 1: over the next decade for the last ninety days than

689
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: they have in money saved by DOGE.

690
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: Oh, it'll be.

691
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 1: By a lot.

692
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: So you know, what they're arguing in court in these

693
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: cases in which they've fired people, for example, is that

694
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 2: all of these cases belong have to go through the

695
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: Merit Systems Protection Board, right, And that doesn't mean and

696
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: those are you know, that doesn't mean that they win.

697
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: That means that they can't be stopped. Now. Now, if

698
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: you go through the Merit Systems Protection Board and then

699
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: you file suit later, well you know you're gonna get.

700
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: You're gonna win because they actually just aren't allowed to

701
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: fire civil servants like that. And so you're going to

702
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: get back pay, you're going to get reinstated, but you'll

703
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: have already had another job, so you're going to be reinstated,

704
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: and then they'll owe you all the pay that you

705
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: should have done. And by the way, you won't have

706
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: to have done the work, so they're not merely gonna

707
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 2: lose and have to pay a lot of restitution. By

708
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 2: the way, this is true for a bunch of contractors too.

709
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: Is in the contractors, and it's going to be again,

710
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: I think there's going to be small businesses these you know,

711
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: some of these contractors are small businesses that facilitate some

712
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: of these aid contracts. Correct, and the business really is

713
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: ninety percent of the business is the federal contract. So

714
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: the cancelation bankshrup the company, and then.

715
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: There are damages and so get you get all of

716
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 2: the back stuff, you get damages. And by the way,

717
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: the government doesn't get the work done. And so if

718
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: you do the accounting for it later, it's going to

719
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: be hugely expensive.

720
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: And describe figure.

721
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: But what you won't have had is any moment where

722
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: a court says, no, you can't do that. And so

723
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: they get to say all along the way, we're saving

724
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: the taxpayer x amount of money we're cutting. And by

725
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: the way, when they lose, it'll be the fault of.

726
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: Some judge, right, those pesky judges.

727
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: A pesky judges.

728
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: Speaking of those pesky judges, it's pretty clear to me

729
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: that John Roberts is petrified that Donald Trump's going to

730
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: ignore an order he should be, so he's desperate to

731
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: find ways to create rulings that give him something but

732
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: not everything. Am I being a little cynical about this?

733
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: You're being cynical? But the cynicism isn't. First of all,

734
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: courts behave that way a lot, right, They look for

735
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: ways to avoid confrontations to make it possible for litigants

736
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: to comply, and when you're dealing, when you're litigant is

737
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: the most powerful nity in the world, and you have

738
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 2: no independent ability to enforce your judgments. Being careful with

739
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: what you order is not the worst thing in the world. Now,

740
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to countenance being uh, cowardly, but being

741
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: But he's not wrong to want to be careful here Trump.

742
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: Unfortunately for him and for the other justices who feel

743
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 2: this way, which certainly include Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett.

744
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: Unfortunately for them, Trump isn't giving them the space like

745
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 2: he's not saying. You know, so he in the Oval

746
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: Office just lied about the Supreme Court's decision in Abrago Garcia.

747
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 2: And you know, the justices aren't morons. They hear this right,

748
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: and so they they see, we gave you a face

749
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: saving out. We didn't say a word in criticism of you.

750
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 2: We didn't use words like illegal or you know, authoritarian

751
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: or terrifying. We didn't do any of that. And you

752
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 2: turned around and described a nine to zero Supreme Court

753
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 2: opinion that said, we're not even ordering you to get

754
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 2: this guy back, but just facilitate it. And you spat

755
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: in our faces. This is going back up to them,

756
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: and so he is sort of systematically taking away from

757
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 2: Roberts and others the ability to not have a confrontation.

758
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: Now that does two things. One is it it? You know,

759
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: it takes away the face saving solution from the justices.

760
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: It also takes away the face saving solution from Trump.

761
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 2: And once you force that confrontation, eventually the Supreme Court

762
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 2: has to say, Okay, the district Court ordered you to

763
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: facilitate that's what we said she could do. You know,

764
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: we affirm. And that's going to be a bad moment,

765
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: and not just a bad moment for the Court, but

766
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: a bad moment for true because it's one thing to

767
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: defy a district court order, which he's now really done twice.

768
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: It's another thing to defy a unanimous Supreme Court opinion, say,

769
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 2: written by Clarence Thomas or Sam Alito. And I don't

770
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 2: know how he responds to that moment, And I honestly

771
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: don't know either, how members of Congress respond to a

772
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 2: moment in which the Supreme Court has unambiguously said, you know,

773
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: a district court has ordered you to do X, and

774
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: we affirm. And he turns around and says, the Supreme Court,

775
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: can you know, put it where the moon don't shine.

776
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: Well, he's you know, it's interesting here, you're right, and

777
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: he's putting so much stress on his own party right now.

778
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: Right the tariffs are putting stress in the farm state

779
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: senators who are just uncomfortable with it, and a lot

780
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: of the free market to your guys who are just

781
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 1: like I knew he was for this, but I always

782
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 1: believed he wasn't that serious. And now they're freaking out.

783
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 1: Now there's this idea of raising taxes on millionaires, right,

784
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: which is like freaking out the Grover nor Quist crowd

785
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: and that, and they're they're desperately trying. I saw Steve,

786
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 1: and it's sort of amusing to me to watch these

787
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: mega converts be shocked when you know, they start behaving

788
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: unpredictably and a little more responsive to what they believe

789
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: their populace base won't just accept but actually wants. Here

790
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: But going back on the court, do you think these

791
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: this is oddly bringing the justices together a little bit,

792
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: just even because it's pretty clear that there's a lot

793
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: of discomfort, right, you know, your Sony Sodomayra and you're say, Alito,

794
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm guessing maybe they say hi in the halls, you know,

795
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: if they if there's other people watching. But I don't

796
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: know if they do if nobody's watching, right, I'm saying that,

797
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: I'm I'm you know, it's so hard to read the

798
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: tea leies with these, with these nine folks. But I

799
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: you know, in a normal environment, right when you've had

800
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: these are the type of things that could actually bring

801
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: an institution together. Do you have any sense of that?

802
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: I know you have some insights sometimes with clerics and

803
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: all that.

804
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,959
Speaker 2: What do you think, Look, I mean, I think from

805
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 2: the opinions themselves, you can tell that they have been

806
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: brought together on certain matters and that they're very divided

807
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 2: on closely related matters. So if you look at the

808
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: two Venezuela cases or the two uh sorry, El Salvador cases.

809
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: In the first one, they all agree that you can't

810
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: just declare someone in an alien enemy, put them on

811
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 2: a plane and fly them out of the right.

812
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: You have to you have to make your case, you

813
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: have to do process again. And they all those all

814
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: the most of the Bill of Rights is about moments

815
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: like this exactly.

816
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: And they all that's unanimous, and they dispense with that

817
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 2: in the first couple of sentences, and then they go

818
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 2: on to have a very bitter division about whether you

819
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: can whether this very technical question of whether that do

820
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: process has to occur through a habeas process or whether

821
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: it can occur through a different process, and therefore whether

822
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: this judge had jurisdiction over this case properly or not.

823
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 2: And you know, on the one hand, they're all together

824
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 2: on the biggest question there right, which is is this

825
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 2: lawful to do? There's no daylight on that between Sonya

826
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: so To Mayora and Clarence Thomas. But so they're all

827
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 2: brought together and they deal with that in a sentence

828
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 2: and a half and then they have a real fight

829
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: about the other thing.

830
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: Just over jurisdiction. But it almost feels like it's like

831
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: they're all looking around here, all right, we got to

832
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: have some escape hatch here, so we don't rule fully

833
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: against well. And then they.

834
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: Do it again two days later or three days later,

835
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 2: right where with Abrago Garcia, all nine of them look

836
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: at it and say, yeah, I'm sorry, you can't do that,

837
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: and then six of them are like, but be careful,

838
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 2: District judge with that word effectuate. We're comfortable with facilitate,

839
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 2: but be careful with effactuation. And three of them are

840
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 2: screaming yes, uh, you know, come on, you're gonna fight

841
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:35,479
Speaker 2: about you know, somebody's being essentially a press release. Look.

842
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: I thought that, honestly, that was this is the division

843
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 2: that I want to see the Supreme Court have. If

844
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 2: if you had told me, if you had described to

845
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: me in the abstract the facts of this case and said,

846
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 2: based on you know, don't just don't don't, don't be

847
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: cynical about it, don't read tee leaves, don't do anything,

848
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: just based on people's stated judicial philosophies, how would you

849
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 2: expect them to handle it? I would say, wow, you know,

850
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: the liberals on the court would be full throated behind

851
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 2: the district court, and the conservatives would get a little

852
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: bit uncomfortable when you start using words like effectuate. But

853
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 2: and that's exactly what happened. So this felt to me

854
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 2: like like if there were no politics, if there were

855
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: no how a court that actually had these ideological divisions

856
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: and these philosophical divisions in a platonic ideal, how what

857
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: a disposition of this case would look like? And so

858
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: I found it very cheering actually, and that they divided

859
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 2: exactly that way on that issue, because it's like you

860
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 2: you look at people who you know, have certain stated

861
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 2: judicial philosophies and they believe in certain things, and then

862
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 2: you get disappointed when they don't behave the way they

863
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: say they believe what they And this one was one

864
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 2: where like you really could have predicted it based on

865
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 2: who they purport to be, and I thought they were

866
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 2: all being their real selves, and so I liked it actually.

867
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 2: But the point is the dispute was pretty bitter, and

868
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: even though they all are but over.

869
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: A technicality over me, that's right, right, It's like having

870
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: a knockdown, drag out fight over a semicolon.

871
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 2: And so I do think in some big sense they're

872
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 2: being brought together in these two cases on the biggest issues.

873
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: They're nine to nothing, and yet they are really angry

874
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: at each other, and they really they treat every one

875
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: of these cases as though, you know, like the fate

876
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 2: of a lot of things depends on it, and that's

877
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 2: not bad. A fate of a lot of things does

878
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 2: depend on it.

879
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, I can't help but assume that the three

880
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: liberals are reacting to probably private conversations they've had with

881
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,439
Speaker 1: the other with many members of the other six who

882
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: all probably privately express alarm and and all that stuff,

883
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: and then like, come on, can't you say it publicly?

884
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: Like that's how I kind of read it for it.

885
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: So I don't disagree with that. And I also think that,

886
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: you know, being a being a member of a permanent

887
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: Supreme Court minority is a very hard thing. You know.

888
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: It's not like being a member of the minority in

889
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: the House of Representatives, where there's always two years from

890
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 2: now right, you have your eye on the next mid terms,

891
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 2: and by the way, you can feel it when things

892
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,959
Speaker 2: are going your way because fundraising picks up right, there's

893
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: always you know, for those three to become the majority

894
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 2: requires people to die. It requires the right person to

895
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 2: be the president when that those people die. These are

896
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 2: very long way of things, and until then, on the

897
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 2: issues that they care most about, they're going to lose

898
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 2: almost every time, and that is a hard life.

899
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: Two other cases I want to ask you about. One

900
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: is California's the State of California's lawsuit against the administration

901
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: on tariffs. I assume the administration is going to say

902
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: that a state can't get involved in national security issues, right,

903
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: in the same way that when Texas was trying to

904
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,760
Speaker 1: get involved with immigration issue, you can't make immigration policy.

905
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: I assume the federal government's going to say, hey, a

906
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: state can't decide trade policy, though they can make their

907
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 1: own sometimes agreements. Sometimes has to do with state taxes

908
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: and things like that. But what's your sense of that

909
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: lawsuit and what and whether it's going to go anywhere?

910
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: So I, first of all, I'm not an expert on tariffs.

911
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 2: I do have the impression that the administrations, to the

912
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 2: extent that the administration is making tariff policy under the

913
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: statute known as AEPA, which is the International Economic Emergencies.

914
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: Right, it's in a national emergency, which I assume becomes

915
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: national security exactly.

916
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 2: So, to the extent that they're making tariff policy based

917
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 2: on AIPA, I think that there may be serious legal

918
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 2: defects with the tariff policy. Whether California is in a

919
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 2: position to successfully challenge it, I'm not sure. Honestly. I

920
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: suspect the better plaintiffs will be private plaintiffs that are

921
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: affected by the tariffs and don't want to follow And.

922
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: What are those law what are those lawsuits against the

923
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: tariffs themselves, or do they become essentially the same type

924
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: of lawsuits we were describing with with aid contractors. No, no, no,

925
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 1: I think they're your tariff policy bankrupted me.

926
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, I think not. I think the I

927
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 2: think these would be prospective. You have no authority to

928
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 2: issue these tariffs the the UH. And I believe that A.

929
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: You're over you're over reading your power in the Emergency

930
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: Acts exactly.

931
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 2: And and you can't declare a worldwide emergency that covers

932
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: all trade under AYEPA. And by the way, even if

933
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 2: you could, tariffs are not one of the authorities that conveys.

934
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: And however, the discovery of of life on another planet,

935
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: now he could worry, that's an emergency for the entire globe. Right, Sorry, I'm.

936
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: Just I would think so right, like this could be,

937
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 2: you know. And so I I think that there's a

938
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: there's I think that there are some substantial arguments that

939
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 2: the tariffs are overreach of his power. I'm not sure

940
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 2: whether California is in the best position to litigate that,

941
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: but I but I wouldn't you know, they have some

942
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 2: They have a serious Attorney General's office that has a

943
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 2: lot of capacity there, so I wouldn't rule it out either.

944
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: The other one I have for you is about Chris

945
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: Krebs and I and it's about a lawsuit. I don't

946
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 1: think he's filed, but I wonder if he could. And

947
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: that is and I know that there are some protections

948
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: that when a sitting president. When you're a sitting president,

949
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: you basically can't be sued in civil court, right, or when.

950
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 2: You're a past president you can't be sued.

951
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: He can defame anybody he wants that. He has blanket

952
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: authority to defame people as long because this is blatant

953
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: defamation a character, Yes, blatant defamation.

954
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 2: As long as he does it as an official act

955
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 2: of the presidency rather than outside in his personal capacity. Order.

956
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 2: This is clearly to.

957
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: Pay nearly a billion dollars. Essentially it's a settlement, So

958
00:59:54,600 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 1: I guess there technically wasn't an adjudication of defamation, but

959
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: but essentially that's what they're paying. If Fox could have

960
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: somehow declared themselves a public official to get out of this, no, it's.

961
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 2: Not public official. It's the president. So the relevant cases

962
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 2: case called Nixon v. Fitzgerald, and it held that the

963
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 2: president is absolutely immune for civil liability for all matters

964
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 2: within for all official acts, within the four corners of

965
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: the outer reaches of his presidential authority. It's a sweeping

966
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 2: opinion from nineteen eighty or seventy nine.

967
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: I mean, because I mean he is the blatant defamation

968
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: on individuals. I mean it is shocking. I mean, well,

969
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: then why Didniejine Carroll's why did she succeed? She exceeded

970
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: because it happened before he was president, correct.

971
01:00:53,400 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 2: So it happened he repeated the defamation during the period

972
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 2: in which he was not president.

973
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: But he also did it while he was president.

974
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 2: Correct, But in the interregnum he did it again.

975
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: Well, he also defamed Chris Krebs in between his president.

976
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 2: So he's not immune from that that Chris could sue

977
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: him for that. Look, this is one of the most

978
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: egregious abuses of his second term so far, both with

979
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 2: respect to Chris Krebs and with respect to Miles Taylor

980
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 2: and the idea you know this is it's so outrageous

981
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: that there's actually a specific provision in the Constitution designed

982
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 2: to prevent things like this, And it's called the Bill

983
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: of a Tainder Clause, right, and a bill of attainder

984
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 2: was what the British Parliament used to do, which was

985
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 2: to name to have like the Chuck todd As an

986
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:58,920
Speaker 2: asshole statute where they would declare you a criminal and

987
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 2: then prescribe a for you, like getting your head cut off.

988
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 2: And the idea was they could just name you and

989
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 2: accuse and pass a bill convicting you of a crime.

990
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 2: And the US Constitution specifically forbids bills of attainer only,

991
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 2: this isn't a bill of attainder, right, it's an executive

992
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 2: order of attainer, which is even worse right because there's

993
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 2: no legislative process behind it. There's no doubt it's unconstitutional.

994
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 2: There's no doubt that you know that it's a horrific abuse.

995
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: The only question is whether it's worth Chris's time to

996
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 2: sue because it doesn't actually do very much right, it's

997
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 2: it's it's an executive order that primarily defames him.

998
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: And of course, yeah, I mean, I just I get

999
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: really frush because this guy has been essentially defaming our profession.

1000
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: He's been all sorts of and you know, he's he's

1001
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: he he deserves to be under a wave of constant

1002
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: lawsuits that he has to like that drown over based

1003
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: on you know, his inability to keep his mouth shut.

1004
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 2: But but with with Chris and I like, you know,

1005
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 2: he and I aren't aren't close, and I know him

1006
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 2: a little bit.

1007
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: But not about I think I have about the same relationship.

1008
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 2: Right, It's not you know, he's somebody who professional just

1009
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 2: a professional, professional acquaintance. And I admired his work in

1010
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 2: government very much. We do a lot of cybersecurity work

1011
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 2: at law Fair, and so our worlds have overlapped a

1012
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 2: fair bit. But this is somebody when when when when

1013
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 2: you sign up as a journalist, you're signing up to

1014
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 2: play in a public space, and.

1015
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 1: To you know, know, I accept it.

1016
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 2: We take upon ourselves the obligation not to engage in

1017
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 2: frivolous attacks, but not an immunity from them. But when

1018
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 2: you sign up to be a government official, one thing

1019
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: you are not supposed to is not supposed to happen,

1020
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 2: is that you get savagely attacked by the government for

1021
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: telling the truth. And what people hate in the Trump

1022
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 2: world hate Chris Krebs for is two things. One is

1023
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 2: that he protected our elections from foreign attacks that they wanted,

1024
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 2: and the second is that having done that he told

1025
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 2: the truth, that the election in twenty twenty was secure.

1026
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 2: And the idea that the head of government, head of

1027
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: head of state of this country would issue a formal

1028
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 2: order attacking you for those things and accusing you of

1029
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 2: you know, treason, is my boggling.

1030
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:06,479
Speaker 1: I look, it's it's I had a friend of mine say,

1031
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,959
Speaker 1: you know, the mistake we made in Trump one point

1032
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 1: oh was failure of imagination and that you know, sometimes

1033
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: we well, he wouldn't do that, right. You know, markets

1034
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: completely didn't believe he would go as far as he

1035
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 1: did on tariffs. Right, They didn't price it in. They

1036
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 1: messed up, They didn't do that. And I think the

1037
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: biggest mistake, probably some swing voters made was assuming that

1038
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: he'd be more like Trump one point oh, right. And

1039
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: I think the biggest, the most important thing people have

1040
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: to understand is that this is an entirely different presidency,

1041
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: an entirely different administration. And the first one had real

1042
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: guardrails because there were real serious people who were not

1043
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: mag and this time this is a government of true

1044
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: believers who well, some are true believers and some are

1045
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: on the livers. You know, there's true believers, and then

1046
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: there's the ones who just want to be reactionaries. If

1047
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: the left upset, then we must be winning, even if

1048
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: I'm losing money in the stock market. Do right. But

1049
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 1: this is an entirely different proposition we're facing with Trump

1050
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: two point zero.

1051
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 2: That is clearly right. And it is also the case

1052
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 2: that his personality is not in the same place as

1053
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 2: it was.

1054
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 1: No, he's a changed man.

1055
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 2: He's Yeah, he was.

1056
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: Always manic as he was. He's more manic now.

1057
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 2: More manic now, and more obsessed with vindictive retribution more

1058
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: of the time. And not that he was free of

1059
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,959
Speaker 2: those things right four years ago or eight years ago,

1060
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:48,919
Speaker 2: but he was. He was less obsessed with it all

1061
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 2: the time than he appears to be now.

1062
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 1: When when people ask you your level of concern about

1063
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 1: the future of the democracy and I get this question,

1064
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: and I'm of the we're not a turkey. Maybe you

1065
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: can make some early stage hungry comparisons. I think that's

1066
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 1: where I go. Where do you go when you when

1067
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: you get asked that question, which I know you get

1068
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: asked a lot.

1069
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get asked it a lot. I mean I

1070
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 2: almost as much as I get asked the what if

1071
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 2: he defies a court order question? Look, anybody who's not

1072
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 2: concerned is not paying attention, and anybody who but it

1073
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 2: is also wrong to catastrophize it. I went out the day.

1074
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 1: Where I try to go. I just like, don't I

1075
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: trust our I trust the public to eventually figure this out.

1076
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 2: The day after the Trump Zelensky White House meeting, so

1077
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 2: I went, I took my laser projector and I went

1078
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 2: to the base of the Washington Monument and I projected

1079
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 2: on in giant letters on the base of the Washington

1080
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 2: Monument Trump advance betrayed it America in the Oval Office,

1081
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 2: and this was visible from the White House and I

1082
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 2: was there doing this. By the way, the video of this,

1083
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 2: which is available on Instagram, has been seen by two

1084
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 2: million people now. And I was there for more than

1085
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 2: an hour and no police showed up. I've had no

1086
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 2: harassment of any kind as a result of having on

1087
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,759
Speaker 2: the base of the Washington Monument that Trump had betrayed

1088
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 2: the country. And by the way, I'm going to do

1089
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 2: it again. You know, the next time he drives really

1090
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 2: really pisses me off, I'm going to do it again.

1091
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 2: And I'm not afraid of being arrested because in fact,

1092
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 2: by the.

1093
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 1: Way, projecting images though. I mean this is I learned

1094
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: this with GW when we were dealing GW was dealing

1095
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: with the with the the gods of protesters, and there

1096
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 1: was nothing they could do. They couldn't claim the thing

1097
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 1: was being defined because it was a projection.

1098
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 2: This is why I use projectors, and I do it

1099
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 2: on the Russian embassy, you know, project Ukrainian flags on

1100
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 2: the Russian embassy. And so it's a it's a technique

1101
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 2: of protests that I've used a lot. But here's the

1102
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 2: thing is, in police states, you don't get to project

1103
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 2: that the president betrayed the country within sight of the president,

1104
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 2: and you don't get to put your name on it

1105
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 2: and expect to be left alone.

1106
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 1: Right you haven't. You haven't been audited yet from the

1107
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 1: I R S. We'll see what well, well, I'll ask

1108
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:34,640
Speaker 1: you again in September.

1109
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:39,639
Speaker 2: So am I concerned? Yes? Do I think people are

1110
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 2: being a bit too hasty to catastrophize the concern? Yeah?

1111
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 2: And look, when I get arrested for uh for this

1112
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 2: sort of activity or get you know, I'll announce it

1113
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 2: when I have an I R S audit, you know.

1114
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 2: And so I I do think there's still a lot

1115
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 2: of room to do political organizing in the United States.

1116
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 2: And I do think by the way, that Donald Trump

1117
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 2: is likely to get shull ACKed in the next midterms.

1118
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 1: I do too, which.

1119
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 2: Again dictators don't really let themselves do. So I don't wanna.

1120
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:21,679
Speaker 2: I don't want to confuse the concern for a sense

1121
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 2: that we don't have anything left to fight over.

1122
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: That's essentially an answer, a form of an answer I

1123
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: heard from Condi Rice who basically said, you know, our

1124
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 1: democracy is pretty ingrained in the people itself, and how

1125
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 1: these things that it's going to be. One person can

1126
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 1: do a lot of harm there, but it's really hard

1127
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 1: for one person to rip out the entire fabric of

1128
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 1: the nation in one turn.

1129
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 2: I agree with that, but I also don't think we

1130
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 2: should be complacent about it. And you know, and I

1131
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 2: think the erosion itself is awful. And look and your

1132
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 2: if your answer, if your question had been focused on

1133
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 2: are we still a place where uh, you know, people

1134
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 2: who are not citizens of the United States, or.

1135
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 1: We're not a beacon anymore, I would have given you

1136
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 1: a very different answer. No, no, no, no. The you know,

1137
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: the idea that we're a beacon of freedom and a

1138
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 1: beacon of new the beacon got turned off. We are

1139
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 1: not you know, nobody is saying come here, we're a

1140
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: safe haven. I mean, you know. And by the way,

1141
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 1: I always constantly have to remind people the Constitution constitutional

1142
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 1: rights are for anybody in the on the in the

1143
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 1: United States, whoever's in the United States, you get some

1144
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: constitutional protection, not all of it, but a lot of it.

1145
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, although you know less than you did four

1146
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 2: months ago.

1147
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 1: And well, you know, just counting on the courts not

1148
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 1: to erode that away, right.

1149
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:02,839
Speaker 2: And well, but you know those are if you're a

1150
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:07,640
Speaker 2: Palestinian sympathetic student on a student visa or you're on

1151
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 2: a green card, you have less rights than you may

1152
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 2: have thought you did four months ago. And so I

1153
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 2: want to be I want to be careful to acknowledge

1154
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,639
Speaker 2: the degree of erosion and not say it's all fine,

1155
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 2: but also not to say things like we're not a

1156
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:30,639
Speaker 2: democracy anymore, or you know, we're we've slid into authoritarianism. Yeah,

1157
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 2: we may be sliding, but we're still pretty high up

1158
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 2: on the hill.

1159
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: So I got a lot of you know, I'm new

1160
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 1: to this. I've had my podcast has been audio only

1161
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 1: up until the last couple of weeks. So I'm new

1162
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 1: to this world of YouTube. So I'm going to make

1163
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: you answer a question that I know some viewers are

1164
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 1: going to say, what are you sitting in? Tell us

1165
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: about your tell us about your backdrop? What do you say?

1166
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:55,120
Speaker 2: So I do all my my zoom meetings from what

1167
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 2: I call the Hammock Studio, and uh if I I mean.

1168
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:03,799
Speaker 1: You should name your production company that EMI Studios.

1169
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 2: You know, so something hang on, let me let me

1170
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:10,559
Speaker 2: pull up my I can I can zoom out so

1171
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 2: you can see the whole thing. And uh, it's.

1172
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: A special treat for check podcast viewers.

1173
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I don't do this for just anybody. I

1174
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 2: built this studio in the in the pandemic, and I

1175
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 2: just said, you know, if I'm gonna uh uh it

1176
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 2: wants to.

1177
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,519
Speaker 1: Upload, it's not zooming.

1178
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 2: Huh yeah, I guess it's not. It's not working.

1179
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 1: So basically you're sitting in a hammock. Not necessarily in

1180
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: a hammock.

1181
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 2: You can see, Yeah, it's a it's a it's a

1182
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 2: handmade hammock with a Ukrainian flag hanging on it, made

1183
01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 2: in in Latvia and I bought it on on Etsy

1184
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:55,760
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the pandemic, because I said, if

1185
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:57,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to be stuck in this little room for

1186
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 2: the next I thought it was three months. It turns

1187
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,920
Speaker 2: that to be tweens. I'm going to be in a hammock.

1188
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 1: Well, look a hammock. Hopefully that's all you're going to

1189
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 1: be in. The government's not going to.

1190
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,919
Speaker 2: Try to create hanging from something else.

1191
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:14,760
Speaker 1: Not going to be trying to create a different type

1192
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 1: of of incarceration for us. Mister Whittis. I appreciate you

1193
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 1: going through this. It's I do think my biggest concern

1194
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 1: about all these lawsuits is that the public isn't paying

1195
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 1: a lot of attention right and that in some ways

1196
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: the Trump administration is counting on counting on the idea

1197
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 1: that that unpopular people, unpopular people are going to get

1198
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: defended by the left because like they're comfortable violating the

1199
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: constitutional rights of unpopular people and think they can get

1200
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:56,640
Speaker 1: away with it. And it's a really it's a disturbing pattern.

1201
01:14:56,600 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and especially so because they are doing it by

1202
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:05,759
Speaker 2: It would be one thing if they were taking people

1203
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 2: who were had genuinely done things that were objectionable and

1204
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 2: demonizing them. But some of the people that they're going after,

1205
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 2: they've gone after so randomly that they then have to

1206
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 2: concoct these kind of legends about them, that they were

1207
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 2: gang members or that they're terrorists or whatever. And they

1208
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 2: often have very little basis for saying these things. And

1209
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 2: so the gay makeup artist with a tattoo becomes a

1210
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 2: scary gang member and the and there's a fair bit,

1211
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 2: you know, speaking of defamation, there's a fair bit of

1212
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:50,440
Speaker 2: simple defamation going on there. And you know, you compound

1213
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 2: locking people up in a salvador in gulag with lying

1214
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 2: about them.

1215
01:15:55,680 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a put it this way, I understand

1216
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 1: and why some people feel that this is a catastrophic

1217
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 1: moment because in individual cases it's absolutely appalling and alarming.

1218
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 1: And I think what you're trying to preach, and what

1219
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: I'm trying to preach is sort of, look, this is bad.

1220
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,680
Speaker 1: It could be worse, and the goal should be to

1221
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 1: stop this so that it doesn't get worse.

1222
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 2: Yes, and also to not confuse this. Look Kilmar Abrego

1223
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 2: Garcia was not deported to a salvator in prison because

1224
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 2: he was doing political organizing or expressing his opinions or

1225
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 2: denouncing the treatment of others. He was deported as best

1226
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 2: as I can tell, because he was looking for work

1227
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 2: in a home depot parking lot with some people who

1228
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 2: turned out to be members of a gang and he

1229
01:16:55,280 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 2: got scooped up. So if it's randomly coming for you, uh,

1230
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:04,559
Speaker 2: there's not that much you can do about that. And

1231
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 2: it's not coming for you because you're giving to political

1232
01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 2: candidates or because you're raising your voice and objection. And

1233
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:16,719
Speaker 2: so you know what I'm saying is, don't confuse the two.

1234
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 2: We can all still do our parts. And the purpose

1235
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 2: of all of this is to scare you, so don't

1236
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 2: let it.

1237
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: Well, people are going to be looking for you and

1238
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 1: your projector around Washington, DC, so it'll be fun to

1239
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 1: look for you. It's where's Waldo. We'll be looking for

1240
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:31,960
Speaker 1: the projector.

1241
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:34,680
Speaker 2: You can always find me in front of the Russian Embassy.

1242
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:39,080
Speaker 2: And these days, just below the south lawn of the

1243
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:42,839
Speaker 2: White House, that mound that they put the Washington Monument

1244
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,080
Speaker 2: on makes a great, great spot to project.

1245
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:47,639
Speaker 1: Weather's great today too.

1246
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 2: Look for me Sunday evening.

1247
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:54,280
Speaker 1: Well there you go, all right, that's an interesting Uh.

1248
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,759
Speaker 1: This is actually going to drop right after Sunday evening.

1249
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 1: So if that does happen. I will let let my

1250
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:04,280
Speaker 1: listeners know, mister wet it's a pleasure, Thank you, sir,

1251
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 1: thank you. So look, we're gonna wait to see what

1252
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:15,880
Speaker 1: does the Supreme When does the Supreme Court go a

1253
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:20,440
Speaker 1: little bit harder? Right, they didn't order the return of Garcia,

1254
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:23,559
Speaker 1: they ordered the government to make an effort to bring

1255
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: him back. So we are still the Roberts Court still

1256
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 1: seems to be tiptoeing to the moment that there is

1257
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: going to be a there's certainly going to be some

1258
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:38,720
Speaker 1: constitutional confrontation. Perhaps it's over the FED Chair. I mean

1259
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 1: to hear Donald Trump go after the FED Chair for

1260
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:44,640
Speaker 1: essentially trying to do his job and trying to If

1261
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 1: he tries to upend the independence of the FED Chair,

1262
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 1: not only could he creator the economy quicker and faster

1263
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:56,599
Speaker 1: and certainly cause all sorts of disruption there, but that

1264
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 1: probably and if I were to if the Roberts Court,

1265
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 1: knowing Roberts, I think he would be willing to draw

1266
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 1: a line in the sand over the FED before he

1267
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:07,599
Speaker 1: might be willing to draw a line in the sand

1268
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:10,160
Speaker 1: over immigration policy. I know that sounds very cynical of me,

1269
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 1: but I think when it comes to the economy. I

1270
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:18,040
Speaker 1: think he would see potentially more cover in that. Maybe

1271
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 1: there'd be more Republicans willing to stand by a Supreme

1272
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:26,599
Speaker 1: Court decision that pushed back on any effort to other

1273
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: president to try to fire fire pals simply because Powell's

1274
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:34,759
Speaker 1: not not bowing down to him and following the policy

1275
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 1: that he wants at the FED rather than what the

1276
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 1: Fed governors believe is in the best interest.

1277
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:40,879
Speaker 2: In the country.

1278
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 1: With that, I do want to just do one quick

1279
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 1: sports wine if I could, and my sports wine is

1280
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 1: the NATS bullpen. Why why why can't this? There seems

1281
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 1: to be a systemic problem in the NATS organization when

1282
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 1: it comes to pitching coaching. For whatever reason, we can't

1283
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:07,360
Speaker 1: develop good relievers. We have a half decent time at development,

1284
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 1: and perhaps we're just scouting. I don't know if it's

1285
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 1: one of two things. Either we only care about finding

1286
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 1: starting pitchers. The experience of the twenty nineteen World Series

1287
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 1: led our front office to believe relief pittures don't matter

1288
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:23,960
Speaker 1: because you just use your best pictures once you get

1289
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:25,800
Speaker 1: to the playoffs. But guess what, you need to get

1290
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 1: to the playoffs, and you need to have functional bullpen

1291
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:30,720
Speaker 1: to do that, or maybe we have owners that are

1292
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:33,080
Speaker 1: just too cheap and are not giving them whatever it is,

1293
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,920
Speaker 1: it's an embarrassment. This is a young team. They deserve

1294
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:39,160
Speaker 1: a chance to win. When you have a bullpen where

1295
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 1: you're not even trying, and you may not even have

1296
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:45,519
Speaker 1: professional baseball players in that bullpen, then you do. You're

1297
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:48,680
Speaker 1: not forget the fans, You're not supporting those young teammates.

1298
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:52,839
Speaker 1: You're only messing with their confidence. So get it together

1299
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 1: front office, Mike Rizzo and the learners and figure out

1300
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 1: either is it coaching and you just need to improved coaching.

1301
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:01,920
Speaker 1: I certainly wish we had Mike Maddocks back as our

1302
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 1: pitching coach. Or are we just being cheap? Either way,

1303
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 1: you're being unfair to this organization that is still only

1304
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 1: six years removed from a world championship. All right. See,

1305
01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 1: this is the joy of having your own of having

1306
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 1: your own podcast. You can ran about pretty much anything

1307
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:25,719
Speaker 1: you want, as long as it doesn't, you know, totally

1308
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:29,320
Speaker 1: set the entire enterprise off the rails. So there's my

1309
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 1: little Nats rant for the weekend. Because I love James Wood.

1310
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:37,559
Speaker 1: I'd like to see this guy get a chance to win,

1311
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 1: and I'd like to see the franchise put a winner

1312
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 1: around it. All right, So with that, I wish I

1313
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,600
Speaker 1: could have enjoyed the Nats winning this weekend, but I

1314
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 1: couldn't because of this awful bullpen. We had a nice

1315
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 1: holiday weekend, beautiful weather, and I had to watch that.

1316
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 1: Come on, people, all right, joy the NBA playoffs. Those

1317
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:58,760
Speaker 1: are going to be a lot of fun until we

1318
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:01,760
Speaker 1: uploaded them. Hey,