Speaker 1: Wind down with Janet Kramer.
Speaker 2: Did iHeart radio podcast?
Speaker 1: Should we just get right to the penises? Or what?
Speaker 1: What are we talking about today?
Speaker 3: What penises? What are you referring to?
Speaker 4: Which ones?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of them.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of them. Which one are you referring to?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 5: You said let's get to the penises, and I mean,
Speaker 5: my mind's going to a lot of places, so I know.
Speaker 1: Did you see the headline last week?
Speaker 3: The uh again? Which headlines?
Speaker 1: Headlines? No, they were like they they picked up. It
Speaker 1: was just so silly because it's your faults, like you
Speaker 1: are the reason why that whole thing even started. They're like,
Speaker 1: why would she talk about that? I'm like, in my defense,
Speaker 1: technically Easton was the one that brought that up, Like
Speaker 1: there has to be something wrong with him, like I'm sure,
Speaker 1: like sure, he is a micro penis. I'm like, that
Speaker 1: was Easton. Why didn't any but he quote Easton? Why
Speaker 1: didn't it say Easton hopes that Jana Kramer's boyfriend has
Speaker 1: a micropenas.
Speaker 5: I would love that headline. I didn't realize that made
Speaker 5: for us, and I apologize. I don't want to when
Speaker 5: I said it, I realized that couldn't come off as
Speaker 5: like body shaving and stuff, and I felt I did
Speaker 5: feel bad if you have a micro penis out there,
Speaker 5: I'm sure it's beautiful and there's someone out there that
Speaker 5: loves it, and all bodies are beautiful.
Speaker 3: I was just looking for uh.
Speaker 5: I was just looking for something about this man that
Speaker 5: might explain other qualities about him, that's all.
Speaker 1: It was just so funny though, because I'm like, I
Speaker 1: didn't try to bring that up, but I'm like, but
Speaker 1: then when you did, I'm like, well, it was kind
Speaker 1: of funny because I did tell my girlfriend's like, there's
Speaker 1: got to be something wrong, right, So but the fact
Speaker 1: I'm like that that's what they picked like picked up.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my gosh, I'm like, not you
Speaker 1: know that. I'm happy and.
Speaker 3: Headline but.
Speaker 5: Wow, I'm seeing that. Sorry, I'm seeing the headlines. There's
Speaker 5: multiple news outlets.
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you for that. I really appreciate you.
Speaker 3: I just like that.
Speaker 5: It Page six says Jana Kramer once believed boyfriend had
Speaker 5: a small phone.
Speaker 1: Leaeve like, what is that?
Speaker 2: I know?
Speaker 1: I was like, I didn't once believe, Like that's that's
Speaker 1: it's a way out of context. Yeah, I was like,
Speaker 1: not at all. I would never say that, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: we joked about it, but like, how do you put that?
Speaker 1: How do you put once believed doesn't? Well, Catherine, you
Speaker 1: would know what what.
Speaker 5: I was like.
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: Never go on, I need some contacts here else is
Speaker 3: gonna be wear headlines? No I'm not, Wow, I didn't.
Speaker 5: Jana Kramer's podcast co hosts has a sexual history with
Speaker 5: current boyfriends.
Speaker 1: Negative, not at all, not true. No, this story is going.
Speaker 4: Let's just say I have access to a lot of
Speaker 4: Janna's stuff.
Speaker 3: Okay, that would make sense, and things.
Speaker 4: Just kind of bump up, you know sometimes.
Speaker 3: As they do, and I'm.
Speaker 4: You know, was traumatize.
Speaker 1: But it's fine.
Speaker 3: Who hasn't swiped too far in the camera? I mean
Speaker 3: we've all been there.
Speaker 4: It was me going through the camera role. Oh no,
Speaker 4: would have been way more prepared.
Speaker 1: The best part about this is like it happened right
Speaker 1: before a podcast episode, so we were like about to
Speaker 1: film and you know, a picture came up or something
Speaker 1: when she because she was on my computer. I mean
Speaker 1: it's my my computer, right, and she all of a
Speaker 1: sudden I hear, Oh.
Speaker 3: My god, was it an incoming text.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and here's the problem. It's like, don't react, don't read.
Speaker 1: But how do you not react to that?
Speaker 4: Like you know, in my head in those two seconds
Speaker 4: before I react, it's like, don't react. I could not.
Speaker 5: I love this man's style because like I want to
Speaker 5: pull the curtain back of it. We record this podcast
Speaker 5: like in the morning. I know, I know you guys
Speaker 5: are in different time zone, but it's still like before
Speaker 5: noon a lot of the time. Want some lunch a
Speaker 5: dana here you go.
Speaker 3: Oh wow.
Speaker 1: And so because we were just being like flirtsy qtsy
Speaker 1: secon see or whatever. And yeah, and then she he
Speaker 1: didn't know that Catherine was on my computer which has
Speaker 1: my messages on there. Does he know now that I
Speaker 1: saw he does. I told him that's uncomfortable. It's fine,
Speaker 1: so young love, right, So so yeah, we I mean
Speaker 1: we were dying. She goes, She was like, oh what
Speaker 1: she goes? That that that that she goes. I can't
Speaker 1: see it. I can't see it. I can't see.
Speaker 4: The thing is is I had forgotten about it. I
Speaker 4: think I blocked it out of my mind, but now
Speaker 4: you're bringing.
Speaker 3: It all back.
Speaker 4: But also I think it was before it was at
Speaker 4: our friends Queendom right podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think everybody else is here. Oh that's right.
Speaker 1: It was ripe. It was it was ripe. So so
Speaker 1: that wasn't in the morning.
Speaker 4: That was morning.
Speaker 1: That was like, yeah, okay, it was it was our
Speaker 1: girls queen then that's right. And we did it at
Speaker 1: like eight thirty because I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I was traumatized. It's fine.
Speaker 1: That is so funny. I mean, I guess you can
Speaker 1: answer the question, though, was a bigger I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3: I don't dwell on this too much. But what angle
Speaker 3: did he choose?
Speaker 1: That's oh my god, I don't remember.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: That's the best shoot I do. Wow. Have you ever
Speaker 1: seen a Dick pic Easton?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a common thing because I got to
Speaker 1: be honest with you, like, you know, shoot, I've been
Speaker 1: in the day. You know, I was married for seven
Speaker 1: something almost years. I don't I never got Dick pics,
Speaker 1: so you know, so it's like, I don't know. Dick
Speaker 1: pick was like the still thing.
Speaker 3: So I was actually wants them, No one wants them,
Speaker 3: I don't think.
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know, I don't know I've done
Speaker 5: it with like girlfriends, you know, but like even then,
Speaker 5: I felt weird about it because it's not a good
Speaker 5: looking part of the body.
Speaker 3: I don't think, Dick, I disagree.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you don't like I mean, you're a man.
Speaker 1: I think girls like.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Whatever you like. You know, it's okay to like whatever
Speaker 1: whatever you're into.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I don't know. I just I think that
Speaker 3: it's a That's why I asked about the angle, because
Speaker 3: it's a hard thing to photograph too, you know, as.
Speaker 4: Someone say, it was nice, Okay, I see, I didn't
Speaker 4: like the angle.
Speaker 3: Oh I love the angle.
Speaker 1: I loved the angle. This is hilarious.
Speaker 2: This is like, are.
Speaker 1: Sorry to my husband? Great, we're friends because.
Speaker 4: I totally didn't tell them that he doesn't It's fine.
Speaker 1: I just you know, I wanted to bring a little
Speaker 1: comedy because I knew you just got done with therapy
Speaker 1: and I didn't know what I was walking into.
Speaker 4: Thinks that was what your therapist needed, was needed.
Speaker 1: Okay, was a hard one. Oh yeah, that was good though.
Speaker 4: God I love her. I can't I leave and I
Speaker 4: just cried because I love her so much.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, this is tough. Cards on the ground.
Speaker 1: Oh the cards.
Speaker 2: Oh shoot, I usually.
Speaker 4: Wait ten sessions till I get to this, and we're
Speaker 4: not at ten, but we're gonna go for it.
Speaker 3: What are the cards?
Speaker 4: It's like you put their like emotions, basically, and you
Speaker 4: put in one pile, ones that you're feeling right now,
Speaker 4: ones that you want to feel in the future, and
Speaker 4: the ones that don't apply. Let's just say mine work
Speaker 4: all over the place. They were all over the place.
Speaker 1: But that's good. I still have a photo of mine.
Speaker 1: Actually I'm gonna I'll pull it up because I'm curious
Speaker 1: to see which, like where if we were, ours are
Speaker 1: the same, but like I remember, mine is like a
Speaker 1: lot of mine was like it was when I was
Speaker 1: still married, Like I felt scared and sad and closed
Speaker 1: off and broken and like those were like all of
Speaker 1: my cards, and it's like where I want to go.
Speaker 1: And she was kind of like okay, like and how
Speaker 1: do you get to that? And I'm like, I'm not,
Speaker 1: don't stay in my marriage, you know, or you know,
Speaker 1: and she's just like and you know, she's not trying
Speaker 1: to lead me in that direction at all. But then
Speaker 1: she's like, okay, well, you know, or whatever else can
Speaker 1: we do or it's like it's just hard realizing that
Speaker 1: when you're like, oh, shoot, these are these are the
Speaker 1: cards I lay down. Yeah, Like it's just like this,
Speaker 1: like it kind of sucks to see, but it's also
Speaker 1: I feel like very healing to see too, to like
Speaker 1: notice where you're at.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't have a clear answer for how do
Speaker 4: you get there? That's the hard part. You're so clear.
Speaker 1: I mean I wasn't because I stayed another year.
Speaker 4: But you kind of were clear with what the answer was.
Speaker 1: I feel like, well, things had to change or I
Speaker 1: had to leave and things didn't change, so I had
Speaker 1: to you know. Yeah, but we're going to take a
Speaker 1: break and then we're going to get we're going to
Speaker 1: ge continue on the conversation we had from last week
Speaker 1: with doctor Ramani. Hi, doctor Ramani, how are you? I'm good?
Speaker 1: Thank you? How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm fine? Thank you. It's nice to see you meet
Speaker 2: both of you.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's such a pleasure to have you on. We
Speaker 1: talk a lot about what you're an expert in, and
Speaker 1: it's just it's absolute honored to have you on the
Speaker 1: show because you are an expert in this field and
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, how how did you become an expert
Speaker 1: in narcissism? Was it a relationship you had or experience?
Speaker 2: Slow? And it was a slow brin. Actually I was
Speaker 2: as a professor. I was an academic and doing research
Speaker 2: on really difficult patients that would come into clinics and
Speaker 2: make the nursing and reception staff miserable. And at the
Speaker 2: same time, I also to private practice, and I was
Speaker 2: seeing patients coming in and talking about the same marriage
Speaker 2: over and over again. Minute dawned on me nobody's teaching
Speaker 2: his clients about narcissism, and they're blaming themselves for this
Speaker 2: other person's abusive behavior. And I thought, oh, this is
Speaker 2: actually if I just educate them on this, maybe this
Speaker 2: will set a lot of them free. And it did.
Speaker 2: I myself have family members who are horribly narcissistic. I've
Speaker 2: been in relationships, I've been in work settings, but I
Speaker 2: got to be honest with you, it was other people's
Speaker 2: experiences that pushed me in this area. And I've been
Speaker 2: doing this work god since the mid or like two
Speaker 2: thousand and six. And when I first started doing it,
Speaker 2: nobody was talking about this, and people are like, girl,
Speaker 2: you're working on something nobody cares about so I care
Speaker 2: about it, So I don't I don't need I don't
Speaker 2: need anyone else to care about. It seems to be
Speaker 2: helping the people I'm working with. And then and then
Speaker 2: over the next ten years, more people got more interested
Speaker 2: in it, so it was sort of something I was
Speaker 2: doing quite quietly for a very long time.
Speaker 1: Well, it is interesting too, because I feel like, even
Speaker 1: just from the stuff that I share on my social
Speaker 1: media or what we share on the podcast, like so
Speaker 1: many people are like, oh wow, Like I had no
Speaker 1: idea that like this is a part of narsism or
Speaker 1: narcissm or oh my gosh, my husband does this or
Speaker 1: And then I started to feel like a little bad
Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, I don't want to ruin people's stuff,
Speaker 1: but at the same time I want it's nice for
Speaker 1: I think for me at least too, to get awareness
Speaker 1: and for other people to get awareness of things like
Speaker 1: I in my relationship, I was like, I felt crazy
Speaker 1: and I felt, you know, like, well, why does he
Speaker 1: hate me so much? And all these things? But I'm like, okay, wait,
Speaker 1: that's not actually the reality, and I don't know. So
Speaker 1: it's nice to get information.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people
Speaker 2: struggle with this, are like, oh, I don't want to
Speaker 2: use this word. It feels so clitical, it feels so judgy,
Speaker 2: And it's so interesting how much effort we put into
Speaker 2: protecting abusers. It's really fascinating, like how can we make
Speaker 2: this abusive person look good? I can't get behind that anymore,
Speaker 2: you know, And if people don't like the words, come
Speaker 2: up with words you feel more comfortable with. But at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, somebody who's doubting your reality
Speaker 2: and validating you, leaving you constantly off balance and then
Speaker 2: having their tantrums so then they feel better, but you're
Speaker 2: left holding the bag. It's not okay. It's just simply
Speaker 2: not okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I know I can say I mean
Speaker 1: the amount of times I'm like, oh, hey, can we
Speaker 1: take that out because I don't want Mike to get
Speaker 1: mad at me if I say this, or hey can
Speaker 1: we take but it's like why am I so afraid
Speaker 1: of his reaction? But it's the that reaction is like
Speaker 1: but wait, no, don't hate me, Like I'm not the
Speaker 1: one that, like, you know, like I didn't do that,
Speaker 1: Like you're the one that ruined the marriage and all
Speaker 1: these things, but like, why do you hate me? But
Speaker 1: yet I can't speak my truth because you want me
Speaker 1: to shut up and stop talking about it. And that's
Speaker 1: the past.
Speaker 2: So I think you bring up to such an important
Speaker 2: point here, which is so many people in narcissistic relationships
Speaker 2: feel like the bad one, that I'm the bad one,
Speaker 2: that I'm saying these bad things. So so many people
Speaker 2: become very isolated with their truth.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: They might have maybe one or two really close friends
Speaker 2: and if they're lucky, a therapist that gets it. But
Speaker 2: then to the world, they feel like, do I need
Speaker 2: to keep faking it? Do I need to keep having
Speaker 2: people thinking that this is okay? And if I'm the
Speaker 2: one who's calling this stuff out, does this make me
Speaker 2: the bad one? And remember, the narcissistic person's needs are
Speaker 2: often being met in the relationship all the time because
Speaker 2: the other person's running in circles, so they're not the
Speaker 2: bad one, right, So it really traps a person in
Speaker 2: an interesting corner. And I think that it's funny you
Speaker 2: put it that way. Is that you said I don't
Speaker 2: I didn't. I was afraid of his reaction, you know,
Speaker 2: I didn't want to say things I was afraid of
Speaker 2: his reaction. And for you, Jenna, it's also about going
Speaker 2: back and thinking when in your life were you also
Speaker 2: afraid of other people's reactions? Like where does that come from?
Speaker 2: Because for some folks it's like you said, I don't
Speaker 2: want to be the bad one, But for other folks
Speaker 2: it's I'm just afraid of anger and rage. Like they
Speaker 2: may have grown up in a home that was characterized
Speaker 2: by anger or rage, so those kinds of reactions are
Speaker 2: terrifying for them. So they keep giving in and giving
Speaker 2: in and giving in to the narcissistic person so they
Speaker 2: don't have to tolerate something that is so unsettling for them.
Speaker 1: Hm.
Speaker 2: That's so true. That a good question.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, what do you do or what
Speaker 1: would you say for someone that is co parenting with
Speaker 1: someone that you know? Yeah, like how do you how
Speaker 1: would you recommend stepping into those waters? Because I I
Speaker 1: My whole thing is I and I know this and
Speaker 1: why I talked to it last week, As I said,
Speaker 1: I engage because I'm thinking that I'm going to get empathy.
Speaker 2: From the past, right and you're not so right there?
Speaker 2: So that right there, you just gave the core of
Speaker 2: what the key element of how to co parent is,
Speaker 2: which is radical acceptance and realistic expectations. The empathy wasn't
Speaker 2: there in the marriage, Why is it all of a
Speaker 2: sudden going to start showing up now. Some people believe, well,
Speaker 2: it's their kids, so that's going to bring out empathy.
Speaker 2: Not so much. I mean, ultimately, the narcissistic person's very
Speaker 2: self serving, and the children are end up being sort
Speaker 2: of accessories in that life, and so and so. It's
Speaker 2: a it's a realistic expectation that none of these patterns
Speaker 2: are going to change. And what I often tell people
Speaker 2: who are co parenting with a narcissist and they're no
Speaker 2: longer in the relationship anymore, I tell them, you're doing
Speaker 2: the equivalent of single parents with an elephant on your back,
Speaker 2: because you still have to negotiate this territory with the narcissism.
Speaker 2: The challenge people have whe their co parenting with a
Speaker 2: narcissist is they can't believe that this person keeps breaking
Speaker 2: the rules. And I say, the realistic expectation is they're
Speaker 2: always going to break the rule. I tell that folks
Speaker 2: were single who are co parenting with a narcissist. You
Speaker 2: are the sole bringer of routine, of order of empathy.
Speaker 2: You've got to be two parents because the other parent
Speaker 2: is either a Disneyland parent or if they kind of
Speaker 2: show up and are on point when they want to be,
Speaker 2: but not at other times. So you're the place where
Speaker 2: you bring consistency, you bring safety, you bring the things
Speaker 2: that a child needs, and where a lot of people
Speaker 2: get stuck. And so they're like, this is so not fair, okay,
Speaker 2: and life's not fair, you know. So what is fair
Speaker 2: is recognizing we know this. We know this from the research.
Speaker 2: All a kid needs is one really good parent that's
Speaker 2: on point. One really good parent can save a child.
Speaker 2: So a lot of people say, my kids are going
Speaker 2: to be ruined. I tell every parent who's co parenting
Speaker 2: with a narcissist, the biggest risk people have when they
Speaker 2: have a narcissistic parent, even if it's only one, is
Speaker 2: that their child is going to struggle with anxiety because
Speaker 2: it's so unpredictable. You don't know if your parent is
Speaker 2: on point, like you just don't know how to please them.
Speaker 2: It's a lot of hoop jumping. You might even see
Speaker 2: your other your co parent, your other parents struggling. So
Speaker 2: I'd say the majority of survivors of childhood narcissistic parents
Speaker 2: end up as anxious adults, and we can sort of
Speaker 2: step them back from that. The bigger concerns are the
Speaker 2: kids who end up going off the rails in different ways, like,
Speaker 2: for example, they become narcissistic themselves, or they turn to
Speaker 2: other ways to cope. They rebel in a really hard way. Drugs, alcohol,
Speaker 2: you know, acting out, sex, rock, you know, drugs, rock
Speaker 2: and roll kind of thing. But by and large people
Speaker 2: become anxious from this. So I tell folks who are
Speaker 2: co parenting, choose your battles wisely. Some people are say
Speaker 2: this is what the parenting agreements say, and they get
Speaker 2: into that fight. I say, listen, let's say give you
Speaker 2: an example. A lot of narcissistic folks during divorces will
Speaker 2: fight tooth and nail for custody the way they want things,
Speaker 2: the qualidays that want. They'll fight, fight, fight, and you
Speaker 2: break your heart and you relent on some of it.
Speaker 2: Then the time comes when they're actually supposed to take
Speaker 2: the kids, maybe six to nine months out, the fight
Speaker 2: is no longer there, and they're like, well, I can't
Speaker 2: do this weekend and I can't do this school thing
Speaker 2: and mean what I tell the healthier co parent, I say,
Speaker 2: grab up those dates, like nobody's business. Every day with
Speaker 2: your kids is a good day. They just wanted to
Speaker 2: show you they wanted to beat you down. I'm not
Speaker 2: convinced that who ever wanted to be with the kids.
Speaker 2: So when you can get those kids, don't say but
Speaker 2: you said, just document, document that on seven days of
Speaker 2: a month they said they were going to be with them,
Speaker 2: they went out of town and they did this. Because
Speaker 2: if you decide to update the parenting agreement and you're
Speaker 2: using an app and something like Talking Parents or something
Speaker 2: like that, using an app to document all of that,
Speaker 2: that can actually then be entered into a court record.
Speaker 2: So I tell people any day you can get your kids,
Speaker 2: good day, And I understand it might be inconvenient. Another
Speaker 2: thing to remember, if you're co parenting with a narcissist
Speaker 2: plan on them dropping the ball, always have your plan
Speaker 2: B and your reinforcements in place, so when they can't
Speaker 2: show up and they won't do this, you're just seamlessly
Speaker 2: like okay, no worries, got it. And people say, well,
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. I tell folks,
Speaker 2: this would have been a lot easier if you got
Speaker 2: one hundred percent of custody, so in a way, you
Speaker 2: would have been already doing these workarounds. It's not about fair,
Speaker 2: it's not about their getting away with something. It's about
Speaker 2: your kids. And that's what I always tell people when
Speaker 2: it comes to co parenting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also feel like, too, that's really good advice.
Speaker 1: Where I was having a tough time because I, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously I didn't want to be divorced. I don't want
Speaker 1: to be co parenting. But when I do have my
Speaker 1: kids now, it's like my main focus is giving them
Speaker 1: memories because they're not going to remember that they were
Speaker 1: with mom seventy percent of the time and dad thirty.
Speaker 1: Like they're gonna remember the memories we make, the times
Speaker 1: we spend together, what we do. They're not going to
Speaker 1: remember like, oh oh well, I mean they'll probably know
Speaker 1: with my situationsin seventy thirty like yes we were at
Speaker 1: moms more, but still like they're not going to know
Speaker 1: the exact you know, when they're the kids. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: just make the memories and focus on that, and then yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean to your point. He asked me if I
Speaker 1: you know I wanted them over his holiday break, and
Speaker 1: I was like, one thousand percent absolutely, because I'm just
Speaker 1: I like, I want that time with my babies as
Speaker 1: much as possible. So yeah, I love that. I do
Speaker 1: have a question though, on okay, because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of characteristics of narcissism. So how many do you have
Speaker 1: to have to actually be a narcissist? Because I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of times you can look at it
Speaker 1: and go, well, like, I mean, I kind of like
Speaker 1: do maybe one of those?
Speaker 2: So what we want to remember is that when we
Speaker 2: think about narcissism, think of it as like sort of
Speaker 2: the core elements of it, and those are things like
Speaker 2: lack of empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, being very sensitive and
Speaker 2: reactively sensitive when somebody gives critics or feedback, being really egocentric,
Speaker 2: being really superficial, constantly seeking validation. That's the core. Okay. Now,
Speaker 2: some people say, well, I like praise. Does that make
Speaker 2: me narcissistic? No, that makes you a human being, right,
Speaker 2: Or a person might say, I don't know, I love clothes,
Speaker 2: I love fashion. Is that superficial?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Not if you're empathic alongside that, you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So I think people kind of get lost in sort
Speaker 2: of the armchair kind of theatrical version of narcissism, and
Speaker 2: they forget that it's really a constant, pervasive presence. This
Speaker 2: is not somebody who is usually a nice person and
Speaker 2: then on a day when they're tired or a lot's
Speaker 2: going wrong, they snap a little bit and then they
Speaker 2: quickly apologize like I had no right to do that.
Speaker 2: This is not one bad day. This is about years,
Speaker 2: lifetimes of bad days interspersed with good ones. That's how
Speaker 2: they trick us, right. They're charming, they're charismatic, they're confident,
Speaker 2: they're curious about us. They seem super fun until they don't,
Speaker 2: and then the bad days get mixed in with the
Speaker 2: good days. But the problem is the bad days are brutal.
Speaker 2: They're abusive, and they're invalidating, and they're manipulative and they're
Speaker 2: gas lighting. They're terrible bad days. It's not just somebody
Speaker 2: who's just I don't know, leaving towels on the floor.
Speaker 2: So I don't you know. One thing I tell people
Speaker 2: is there's no such thing as healthy narcissism. Narcissism, by definition,
Speaker 2: is an unhealthy pattern. I think that it's on a continuum.
Speaker 2: There's milder levels of narcissism, where some people are more
Speaker 2: almost emotionally stunted, really immature, really vapid, really ridiculous, really
Speaker 2: validation seeking. Their empathy is spotty, like if they're having
Speaker 2: a good day, they think everyone's having a good day,
Speaker 2: so stunted, they're like forever adolescent. That's at the milder level,
Speaker 2: but as we keep going into the more severe levels,
Speaker 2: it's really really bad for us. But even those milder levels,
Speaker 2: I don't see how a person could make a relationship
Speaker 2: of any depth go with a person like that for
Speaker 2: any long period of time. As soon as the going
Speaker 2: gets tough, those people have no interest in real life.
Speaker 2: They just want to again forever be childish and immature,
Speaker 2: and so they're not really they're not great for marriage
Speaker 2: and children and growing old together. They're not made for that.
Speaker 4: So on the other side of that, I just think,
Speaker 4: you know, it's such a thing now, Like you said,
Speaker 4: people weren't really talking about it much ten years ago.
Speaker 4: Now we're all starting to talk about it. So if
Speaker 4: people are recognizing this and themselves and they are owning
Speaker 4: that and they're gonna, you know, want to try and
Speaker 4: get better. Do you just recommend therapy for them? Or like,
Speaker 4: how do you get out of this narcissistic behavior.
Speaker 2: So it's a good question. In the majority, and in
Speaker 2: the vast majority of cases, this doesn't change there really doesn't.
Speaker 2: It is the ones who change are the unicorns. I
Speaker 2: think I've seen significant change in a narcissist twice in
Speaker 2: my career. And I've been doing this for twenty five years, Okay,
Speaker 2: in my own life, like personal life, not people I treat,
Speaker 2: I've seen significant change.
Speaker 1: Twice.
Speaker 2: I mean, and I'm fifty six, right, so I mean
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, like, these are these are not short
Speaker 2: periods of time that you know, so it doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what, it's very, very hard to
Speaker 2: find a therapist that can work with a narcissistic client.
Speaker 2: These are the you know, these are the jedis of therapy. Like,
Speaker 2: it's very very I've worked with many narcissistic clients, some
Speaker 2: of them ten years or longer. I think I'm a
Speaker 2: good therapist. I've done amazing work with many clients with
Speaker 2: the narcissistic clients. I'm not kidding you. I think we've
Speaker 2: moved the needle like a millimeter and we've done good work.
Speaker 2: And it's just the problem is this, When a narcissistic
Speaker 2: person faces frustration, stress, disappointment, anything that sort of pops
Speaker 2: their little bubble boom game on, they lose it and
Speaker 2: so and they take it out on the people around
Speaker 2: them until they can manage that, they get out of
Speaker 2: their heads that everything always has to be perfect for
Speaker 2: them all the time, they're going to keep having these meltdowns. So, yes,
Speaker 2: I I think therapy is absolutely critical. And I would
Speaker 2: say for somebody who says I don't like this pattern
Speaker 2: in me, I am aware I'm blowing people's lives up.
Speaker 2: I am aware that I'm acting like a jerk. I
Speaker 2: am aware that I'm not a nice person. Great, Okay,
Speaker 2: I think it takes a lot of courage to do that. Yes, therapy,
Speaker 2: but above and beyond therapy, every day, every hour, every
Speaker 2: fifty every minute of every day, that narcissistic person has
Speaker 2: to be self aware of how their words, their actions,
Speaker 2: their everything affects other people and think before they speak,
Speaker 2: find ways to cope with their disappointment, recognize other people
Speaker 2: have needs. I have to tell you, I've worked with
Speaker 2: some narcissistic clients, and I remember a couple in particular
Speaker 2: who said they really did. They gave it the old college.
Speaker 2: Try this, say I can't be bothered. This is exhausting.
Speaker 2: And you know what they said, I'm gonna break up
Speaker 2: my marriage. I'm gonna end of my marriage. And they
Speaker 2: this person have one person, particularly, he had a woman
Speaker 2: on the side. He's like, I'm ending my marriage, I'm
Speaker 2: ending my relationship with this woman, I'm having an affair
Speaker 2: with I'm moving out, moving into an apartment. I have
Speaker 2: lots of friends I don't you know, and they're fine
Speaker 2: with me being an ass and so and then that's it,
Speaker 2: and they this person recognized I don't have what it
Speaker 2: takes and I don't want to hurt people. This person
Speaker 2: acknowledged I don't want to hurt people. But I can't
Speaker 2: be in a relationship because I don't have patience. I
Speaker 2: don't care about another person's feelings other than at this
Speaker 2: the most superficial level. And then he found someone he's like,
Speaker 2: but I like sex. He found somebody paid once a
Speaker 2: month or maybe twice a month, come over, hang out,
Speaker 2: leave it to in the morning, and he's like, that's
Speaker 2: really all I really wanted. And it was an incredible
Speaker 2: revelation because this was somebody saying, this is too much work.
Speaker 2: It's almost like trying to lose weight. We know what
Speaker 2: we need to do, change what we eat, exercise. Most
Speaker 2: people like, oh, heck no, I got to eat me
Speaker 2: my cheese cake. I got I'm not giving off this
Speaker 2: other stuff. And it's a very similar model for people
Speaker 2: who are narcissistic. A lot of them don't, you know,
Speaker 2: even if they want to do the work, it is
Speaker 2: a life, life, daily, daily commitment to that. I think
Speaker 2: many narcissistic people they'll have no insights. But the ones
Speaker 2: who do have insight if you did the work every
Speaker 2: day and paid attention and recognize it's not okay to
Speaker 2: rage at other people when you don't get your way,
Speaker 2: and you have to have empathy and yes, you have
Speaker 2: to wait in line like the rest of us. I mean,
Speaker 2: like I said, I've seen it happen maybe four times
Speaker 2: in my life. And they worked hard. They worked hard.
Speaker 1: What if the narcissist says they only act this way
Speaker 1: towards you because you're like because they hate you so much,
Speaker 1: Like they only act this anger like I'm not like that.
Speaker 1: I'm not that person anymore. I only do this because
Speaker 1: because of you, and you bring this out in me.
Speaker 2: It's not true. I mean, it's completely not true. This
Speaker 2: is a pervasive pattern. What we see with a lot
Speaker 2: of narcissistic folks, though, is they can really be brutal
Speaker 2: in their most high stakes relationship, like an intimate relationship
Speaker 2: or family relationship or something like that, but all of
Speaker 2: their other relationships are so superficial and are giving them
Speaker 2: narcissistic supply. You're such a great guy, you're so cool.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of that, you know, but there's no
Speaker 2: depth there. These people are almost either as superficial as
Speaker 2: a narcissist, or they're enablers, or they're benefiting in some
Speaker 2: way financially or something. There's some benefit to them for
Speaker 2: staying in the friendship. So all of their other relationships
Speaker 2: are so superficial or with enablers. So it is quite
Speaker 2: conceivable that just a very small group of people are
Speaker 2: getting the worst of it because the other people aren't
Speaker 2: going deep with them. But this idea that you're the
Speaker 2: only person I treat this way. They treat everybody badly.
Speaker 2: I imagine this is a person who would treat store
Speaker 2: clerks badly or a person on an airplane badly. They're
Speaker 2: just rude when things don't go the way they want.
Speaker 2: It's just that that high impact person, the intimate partner,
Speaker 2: usually gets the worst of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you know, obviously you've got amazing books out,
Speaker 1: So the one that should you stay or should you go?
Speaker 1: I mean, what is your number one thing that you
Speaker 1: tell couples or people in relationships when dealing with this,
Speaker 1: like when because a lot of times you're like when
Speaker 1: is enough enough? And I'm like, for me, it was like,
Speaker 1: you know, I had my final s jobs, you know,
Speaker 1: six seven years later. But I mean it took it
Speaker 1: took a while. But I think it's it's hard because
Speaker 1: they make you feel so crazy that even to this day,
Speaker 1: even co parenting, I'm like, am I the you know,
Speaker 1: he's like calling yourself an EmPATH is comical, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: but I do have empathy, and I I I'm like,
Speaker 1: you call you're calling me a narcissist, Like you're a narcissist.
Speaker 1: And it's like this back and forth, like I'm like,
Speaker 1: how like it's like, and I'm like, well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe I am like I like I Then I start
Speaker 1: to like question it and I'm like, am I crazy?
Speaker 2: Well that what you just described is gaslighting? Right, So
Speaker 2: every everybody and in addition to the word narcissism, everybody's
Speaker 2: using the word gas lighting it most people are using
Speaker 2: it wrong. Gaslighting is not a one off, it's a process, right,
Speaker 2: and a gas lighter you kind of have to have
Speaker 2: some trust or some skin in the game with them, right.
Speaker 2: You want in essence, you you believe in that person
Speaker 2: for some reason, you love them, or they're your boss
Speaker 2: or your family member, like you want to believe them.
Speaker 2: So over time, what the gas lighter does is they
Speaker 2: doubt your reality. I never said that, that never happened.
Speaker 2: You're being too sensitive. You have no right to feel
Speaker 2: that way. And you're like, okay, so now your reality
Speaker 2: is like don't I have a right to feel that way?
Speaker 2: Or did that really happen?
Speaker 1: Well, we're divorce that my feelings don't matter. You feels
Speaker 1: don't matter are an issue anymore?
Speaker 2: Yeah, my feelings don't matter. Okay, So reality is being doubted.
Speaker 2: But then they double down at that point, and then
Speaker 2: they say, wow, you're so sensitive, like have you been
Speaker 2: seen by a psychiatrist because there's something really wrong with you,
Speaker 2: or you're not remembering stuff like I'm wondering are you drinking?
Speaker 2: Like is something wrong with you? Like they'll literally try
Speaker 2: to paint a picture of that person whose reality they've
Speaker 2: always already doubted as being crazy or as being something's
Speaker 2: wrong with them medically, psychiatrically, you name it. So now
Speaker 2: this person might actually start buying the hype. Maybe I'm
Speaker 2: the narcissist. Maybe I'm the one who's being unreasonable. Maybe
Speaker 2: I am too sensitive. I do need to get therapy.
Speaker 2: And now this person it's almost like how you bring
Speaker 2: someone into a cult. You make them so reliant on
Speaker 2: you for reality that they're stuck. And so that process
Speaker 2: of gas slighting is why people get stuck in these
Speaker 2: relationships for so long, because the narcissist in some ways
Speaker 2: is the holder of the reality. If somebody gets into
Speaker 2: therapy with someone good, that good therapist is say, girl,
Speaker 2: you're being gaslight and then a personally was that? And
Speaker 2: then you walk them through it and you have them
Speaker 2: keep journals and bring it. I've had so many clients
Speaker 2: have recorded conversations and play it in session, and I'm
Speaker 2: like gaslight, minimization, abuse and validation, Like we just break
Speaker 2: it down and they'll think, they say, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Now I can make some choices. Keep in mind the
Speaker 2: whole the concept behind should I say or should I go?
Speaker 2: When I wrote that book was it's very simplistic to
Speaker 2: tell everyone going through narcissistic abuse leave. Obviously that's the
Speaker 2: best path, because the less time you spend with the
Speaker 2: narcissist the better. It's like something toxic. If you're not
Speaker 2: near the toxic thing, like secondhand smoke, you won't feel sick. Right,
Speaker 2: the closer you are to it, the sicker it makes you.
Speaker 2: But that's not an option open to everybody. Because of custody,
Speaker 2: because of money, because of culture, religion, whatever a person's
Speaker 2: reasons are. I have no right to sit there and
Speaker 2: say you gotta go. I do understand a lot of
Speaker 2: people feel stuck or they still aren't ready to go,
Speaker 2: So I give them both. I tell them this is
Speaker 2: what these two pathsways, and these two options look like
Speaker 2: what you say. Six or seven years before I figured
Speaker 2: out what was going on and wanted to get out
Speaker 2: that's not odd. I'm to tell you now, I think
Speaker 2: I've worked with folks who've been in narcissistic marriages for
Speaker 2: sixty years. So it literally can take and they leave
Speaker 2: when they're eighty. Believe it or not too like it's not.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a point at which more and where
Speaker 2: people get the knowledge and recognize this is never going
Speaker 2: to change, because that's the baseline. It's really not going
Speaker 2: to change. And even if there's a little bit of change,
Speaker 2: the person hurt by the narcissists has been hurt in
Speaker 2: such a permanent way. They might say, good for you,
Speaker 2: you want to go, change, go, but you've damaged me
Speaker 2: too much. I can't do this anymore. And so the idea, though,
Speaker 2: is what the narcissistic person tries to do. It's all
Speaker 2: about dominance. It's all about power and control, and it's
Speaker 2: all about harming the other person in a way that
Speaker 2: it makes it harder to leave, and even when the
Speaker 2: relationship is done, to sort of keep them down. And
Speaker 2: that's and so it's I really tell people, fifty percent
Speaker 2: of people stay and fifty percent of people go, and
Speaker 2: there's no shame in either of those. And a lot
Speaker 2: of people go and then they come back. And that's
Speaker 2: also normal too, because there's so much hope that people have.
Speaker 2: It's going to change, it's going to change. I'm telling
Speaker 2: you here to tell you it's not going to change.
Speaker 2: So you know that's the fact is, if you go
Speaker 2: it's not going to change. I can give you that guarantee.
Speaker 2: If you go back, I can also promise you it's
Speaker 2: not going to get better.
Speaker 1: So starting a new relationship, then what are some of
Speaker 1: the signs that you know? I mean, obviously right now
Speaker 1: everything is amazing with new my new man, but like,
Speaker 1: what is something I mean, I kind of with my history.
Speaker 1: I'm very sensitive to things. But is there anything that
Speaker 1: I should be aware of or a sign or anything
Speaker 1: that you say to people that start new relationships.
Speaker 2: I always tell people when they start new relationships after
Speaker 2: having been through a toxic one, you've got to understand
Speaker 2: what a healthy relationship is. I'm always struck by how
Speaker 2: many people don't even know what the definition of a
Speaker 2: healthy relationship is. And it's kindness, compassion, respect, what we
Speaker 2: call mutuality of regard. Like you both, there's a back
Speaker 2: and a forth and awareness of what's important to the
Speaker 2: other person. There's something we call reciprocity. There's given, take,
Speaker 2: there's compromise, and there is a growth orientation that both
Speaker 2: each person in the relationship wants the other person to grow.
Speaker 2: In other words, in a narcissistic relationship, the person doesn't
Speaker 2: want the other person to grow, doesn't want them to
Speaker 2: succeed because it'll make them look bad or they are
Speaker 2: In all narcissistic people have abandonment fears. They always think
Speaker 2: the other person's going to go because they're so insecure.
Speaker 2: That's the true core of narcissism, insecurity and feelings of inadequacy. Right.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of sad when you think about it,
Speaker 2: but I don't care how sad it is. Abuse is abuse.
Speaker 2: So in a new relationship, I tell people you got
Speaker 2: to look for those fundamentals, and if those fundamentals aren't there,
Speaker 2: you got to get out of dodge. But then it's
Speaker 2: almost the behavioral stuff. It's things like how does a
Speaker 2: person receive feedback? If a person gets it's really touchy
Speaker 2: and defensive and icky when you give them feedback, it's
Speaker 2: a really really bad sign because you may not like
Speaker 2: what someone's saying and they might give you feedback. That's
Speaker 2: uncomfortable in a new relationship. But if that person says, oh,
Speaker 2: this is so hard for me to hear, but I
Speaker 2: need to hear it or can hear, or say give
Speaker 2: me a minute instead of raging or saying yeah, you
Speaker 2: say that about me, well, let me tell you this
Speaker 2: about you. That's the kind of thing we're looking for.
Speaker 2: I'd say that shows up pretty early in a more
Speaker 2: toxic relationship. We look at how a person treats other people.
Speaker 2: How do they treat people who do have less power
Speaker 2: around them? That might be people who work in service occupations,
Speaker 2: who might work in a household. How are those people treated,
Speaker 2: How are they talked about? If there's any dismissive kinds
Speaker 2: of conversation there. I would tell people to get out.
Speaker 2: How much validation and admiration do they need they does
Speaker 2: it feel like they always have to have every you know,
Speaker 2: it's almost of the flip side of that, like when
Speaker 2: they go in everywhere, they need to be every you know,
Speaker 2: Bartender's best friend and everyone has to like them, and
Speaker 2: it's all about how they look to the world. You know,
Speaker 2: like approval, but that approval those different than admiration, Jenna.
Speaker 2: You know, approval is that's something for you to work
Speaker 2: on in your own therapeutic Yeah, because in some ways
Speaker 2: that's a that's sort of a monkey in our back,
Speaker 2: but that's very different. That's almost like an inner child's
Speaker 2: piece of view that wants to be approved, but admirations
Speaker 2: like look how great I am? You know, and it's
Speaker 2: very different. So something else you'd want to look for.
Speaker 2: I'd also look at how whether someone can be present.
Speaker 2: Are they always looking at their phone or their watch
Speaker 2: or out the window. It always seems that they're looking
Speaker 2: out the door to see if someone better is going
Speaker 2: to sort of metaphorically walk in. Are they able to
Speaker 2: be present even in moments you might consider boring or tedious.
Speaker 2: That's another thing to pay attention to. Those are the
Speaker 2: signs I tell people, And if something doesn't feel good,
Speaker 2: I also tell people what's the pace of the relationship.
Speaker 2: Narcissistic people like fast relationships because what it means is
Speaker 2: that red flags get ignored the faster they move and
Speaker 2: the quicker they kind of get it sealed the deal.
Speaker 2: Now a person's in something pretty deep and they're like,
Speaker 2: this isn't so good, but now I've agreed to I
Speaker 2: don't live with someone or marry someone, or I'm pregnant
Speaker 2: or whatever. Those things can actually get people stuck, and
Speaker 2: narcissistic people, as a rule tend to want to go
Speaker 2: fast because it's just sort of, like I said, for them,
Speaker 2: it sort of gets around the insecurity for them because
Speaker 2: they feel that the other person's less likely to leave.
Speaker 1: Got it, well, doctor Imani, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming on, and I think hopefully, I mean, I know
Speaker 1: it helped me a lot, and hopefully everyone that's listening
Speaker 1: it helped as well. And then we're gonna put your
Speaker 1: books up here on the site. Don't you know who
Speaker 1: I am? And should I stay or should I go
Speaker 1: on Amazon get them? I'm ordering them right now. So
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on, and hopefully I'll
Speaker 1: talk to you soon, but hopefully not. You know, like
Speaker 1: I kind of want to like stop talking about this now,
Speaker 1: so but I appreciate you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Thank you for the time, and
Speaker 2: I thank you, and I hope your listeners benefit as
Speaker 2: you did as well, and let people know that after
Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse, I've seen actually incredible love stories and life stories,
Speaker 2: So there is life after this.
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you, Hank, Thank you it's so
Speaker 1: funny that one of those I'm like, oh wait, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I mean I like to move fast sometimes. I was like,
Speaker 1: but I mean it's different this time around.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that that's just you can have
Speaker 4: insecurities but not be narcissistic.
Speaker 1: Very interesting some of that. I mean, so it's good
Speaker 1: she's she's very good. You can tell she's like.
Speaker 4: A yeah, I found it very interesting though, Like I
Speaker 4: don't you know, I can't really think of necessarily narcissistic
Speaker 4: people in my life, but it seems so like kind
Speaker 4: of hopeless if you see that in yourself, you know
Speaker 4: what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I guess like so many, like more people
Speaker 1: wouldn't see them.
Speaker 4: They just wouldn't see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like my ex will never Let's just say he's one.
Speaker 4: That just like kind of made me sad because it's like, well,
Speaker 4: what's the hope for people to see this as themselves?
Speaker 4: And it's kind of like, oh, they just don't change.
Speaker 1: Right, And that's why on this side, I'm like, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm crazy, maybe he's not, and I'm.
Speaker 4: But then at the other side is yeah, hopefully you
Speaker 4: see that as rightful. Yes, that she's seen two people right, change.
Speaker 1: Right in all her years. Yeah, I know, that's that
Speaker 1: was that was eye opening for sure.