WEBVTT - It’s All About the Angles 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:03.560 Wind down with Janet Kramer. 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:05.359 Did iHeart radio podcast? 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:08.479 Should we just get right to the penises? Or what? 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:09.920 What are we talking about today? 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:13.119 What penises? What are you referring to? 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:14.960 Which ones? 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:17.040 Yeah, there's a lot of them. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.000 There's a lot of them. Which one are you referring to? 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:20.880 I don't know. 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.239 You said let's get to the penises, and I mean, 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.040 my mind's going to a lot of places, so I know. 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:28.680 Did you see the headline last week? 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.479 The uh again? Which headlines? 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:39.760 Headlines? No, they were like they they picked up. It 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.680 was just so silly because it's your faults, like you 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.960 are the reason why that whole thing even started. They're like, 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.520 why would she talk about that? I'm like, in my defense, 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:53.840 technically Easton was the one that brought that up, Like 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.120 there has to be something wrong with him, like I'm sure, 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.440 like sure, he is a micro penis. I'm like, that 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.120 was Easton. Why didn't any but he quote Easton? Why 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:05.600 didn't it say Easton hopes that Jana Kramer's boyfriend has 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:06.679 a micropenas. 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.200 I would love that headline. I didn't realize that made 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:12.800 for us, and I apologize. I don't want to when 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:14.800 I said it, I realized that couldn't come off as 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:16.679 like body shaving and stuff, and I felt I did 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:18.760 feel bad if you have a micro penis out there, 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:20.720 I'm sure it's beautiful and there's someone out there that 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:22.840 loves it, and all bodies are beautiful. 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.080 I was just looking for uh. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.480 I was just looking for something about this man that 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.759 might explain other qualities about him, that's all. 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:33.520 It was just so funny though, because I'm like, I 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:35.600 didn't try to bring that up, but I'm like, but 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:37.320 then when you did, I'm like, well, it was kind 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.120 of funny because I did tell my girlfriend's like, there's 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.640 got to be something wrong, right, So but the fact 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:46.360 I'm like that that's what they picked like picked up. 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.120 I was like, oh my gosh, I'm like, not you 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:51.920 know that. I'm happy and. 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:56.640 Headline but. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.680 Wow, I'm seeing that. Sorry, I'm seeing the headlines. There's 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:07.360 multiple news outlets. 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.480 Thanks, thank you for that. I really appreciate you. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:12.000 I just like that. 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:16.080 It Page six says Jana Kramer once believed boyfriend had 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:16.720 a small phone. 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:18.240 Leaeve like, what is that? 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:18.560 I know? 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.839 I was like, I didn't once believe, Like that's that's 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.920 it's a way out of context. Yeah, I was like, 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:27.440 not at all. I would never say that, Like, you know, 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:29.680 we joked about it, but like, how do you put that? 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:35.840 How do you put once believed doesn't? Well, Catherine, you 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:37.600 would know what what. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:42.160 I was like. 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.800 Wait a minute, Oh yeah. 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:52.280 Never go on, I need some contacts here else is 0:02:52.320 --> 0:03:01.360 gonna be wear headlines? No I'm not, Wow, I didn't. 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:07.480 Jana Kramer's podcast co hosts has a sexual history with 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.240 current boyfriends. 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:16.080 Negative, not at all, not true. No, this story is going. 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.360 Let's just say I have access to a lot of 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:22.240 Janna's stuff. 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:29.160 Okay, that would make sense, and things. 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.480 Just kind of bump up, you know sometimes. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.120 As they do, and I'm. 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:35.160 You know, was traumatize. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:35.680 But it's fine. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.520 Who hasn't swiped too far in the camera? I mean 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:43.360 we've all been there. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.000 It was me going through the camera role. Oh no, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:51.720 would have been way more prepared. 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.880 The best part about this is like it happened right 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:02.440 before a podcast episode, so we were like about to 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.600 film and you know, a picture came up or something 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:08.680 when she because she was on my computer. I mean 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.760 it's my my computer, right, and she all of a 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:14.640 sudden I hear, Oh. 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:20.159 My god, was it an incoming text. 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.719 Yeah, and here's the problem. It's like, don't react, don't read. 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.599 But how do you not react to that? 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.719 Like you know, in my head in those two seconds 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.400 before I react, it's like, don't react. I could not. 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.480 I love this man's style because like I want to 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.080 pull the curtain back of it. We record this podcast 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:40.920 like in the morning. I know, I know you guys 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:42.800 are in different time zone, but it's still like before 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:48.240 noon a lot of the time. Want some lunch a 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:49.320 dana here you go. 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.599 Oh wow. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:59.440 And so because we were just being like flirtsy qtsy 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.720 secon see or whatever. And yeah, and then she he 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.800 didn't know that Catherine was on my computer which has 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.720 my messages on there. Does he know now that I 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:15.960 saw he does. I told him that's uncomfortable. It's fine, 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:24.520 so young love, right, So so yeah, we I mean 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.640 we were dying. She goes, She was like, oh what 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:33.800 she goes? That that that that she goes. I can't 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.120 see it. I can't see it. I can't see. 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:39.920 The thing is is I had forgotten about it. I 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:41.440 think I blocked it out of my mind, but now 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:42.240 you're bringing. 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:42.799 It all back. 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.520 But also I think it was before it was at 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.839 our friends Queendom right podcast. 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.440 Yeah, because I think everybody else is here. Oh that's right. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:55.360 It was ripe. It was it was ripe. So so 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:56.200 that wasn't in the morning. 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:56.960 That was morning. 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.240 That was like, yeah, okay, it was it was our 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:02.680 girls queen then that's right. And we did it at 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.600 like eight thirty because I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:07.560 I think so. 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:09.400 I don't know, I was traumatized. It's fine. 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.000 That is so funny. I mean, I guess you can 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:19.000 answer the question, though, was a bigger I'm just kidding. 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.479 I don't dwell on this too much. But what angle 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:23.080 did he choose? 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.680 That's oh my god, I don't remember. 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:26.120 I do. 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:43.039 That's the best shoot I do. Wow. Have you ever 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:44.279 seen a Dick pic Easton? 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:46.080 Yes? 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.600 Okay, so that's a common thing because I got to 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.680 be honest with you, like, you know, shoot, I've been 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:55.320 in the day. You know, I was married for seven 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.679 something almost years. I don't I never got Dick pics, 0:06:58.720 --> 0:06:59.920 so you know, so it's like, I don't know. Dick 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:01.040 pick was like the still thing. 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.600 So I was actually wants them, No one wants them, 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:05.160 I don't think. 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.960 I mean, I don't know, I don't know I've done 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.800 it with like girlfriends, you know, but like even then, 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.120 I felt weird about it because it's not a good 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:15.480 looking part of the body. 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.440 I don't think, Dick, I disagree. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:25.480 Okay, okay, you don't like I mean, you're a man. 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:26.440 I think girls like. 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:27.280 I don't know. 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:29.680 Whatever you like. You know, it's okay to like whatever 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:30.600 whatever you're into. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.480 Yeah, yes, I don't know. I just I think that 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.400 it's a That's why I asked about the angle, because 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.840 it's a hard thing to photograph too, you know, as. 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.120 Someone say, it was nice, Okay, I see, I didn't 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:44.640 like the angle. 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.000 Oh I love the angle. 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.040 I loved the angle. This is hilarious. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.000 This is like, are. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:02.200 Sorry to my husband? Great, we're friends because. 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.720 I totally didn't tell them that he doesn't It's fine. 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:07.520 I just you know, I wanted to bring a little 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.520 comedy because I knew you just got done with therapy 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:11.840 and I didn't know what I was walking into. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.160 Thinks that was what your therapist needed, was needed. 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.160 Okay, was a hard one. Oh yeah, that was good though. 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.000 God I love her. I can't I leave and I 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:23.440 just cried because I love her so much. 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:23.800 I know. 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.160 Yeah, no, this is tough. Cards on the ground. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:28.560 Oh the cards. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:30.880 Oh shoot, I usually. 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.079 Wait ten sessions till I get to this, and we're 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:34.360 not at ten, but we're gonna go for it. 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:36.840 What are the cards? 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.439 It's like you put their like emotions, basically, and you 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.000 put in one pile, ones that you're feeling right now, 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.199 ones that you want to feel in the future, and 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.800 the ones that don't apply. Let's just say mine work 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.240 all over the place. They were all over the place. 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:52.920 But that's good. I still have a photo of mine. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:54.640 Actually I'm gonna I'll pull it up because I'm curious 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.480 to see which, like where if we were, ours are 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.240 the same, but like I remember, mine is like a 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:00.959 lot of mine was like it was when I was 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:07.040 still married, Like I felt scared and sad and closed 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.040 off and broken and like those were like all of 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:11.800 my cards, and it's like where I want to go. 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:14.679 And she was kind of like okay, like and how 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:16.959 do you get to that? And I'm like, I'm not, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.520 don't stay in my marriage, you know, or you know, 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:21.840 and she's just like and you know, she's not trying 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:23.640 to lead me in that direction at all. But then 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.360 she's like, okay, well, you know, or whatever else can 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.719 we do or it's like it's just hard realizing that 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:31.559 when you're like, oh, shoot, these are these are the 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.040 cards I lay down. Yeah, Like it's just like this, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.560 like it kind of sucks to see, but it's also 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.120 I feel like very healing to see too, to like 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:40.559 notice where you're at. 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.880 Yeah, I didn't have a clear answer for how do 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:44.839 you get there? That's the hard part. You're so clear. 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.880 I mean I wasn't because I stayed another year. 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:50.079 But you kind of were clear with what the answer was. 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.599 I feel like, well, things had to change or I 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.280 had to leave and things didn't change, so I had 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.599 to you know. Yeah, but we're going to take a 0:09:58.640 --> 0:09:59.839 break and then we're going to get we're going to 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:01.880 ge continue on the conversation we had from last week 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:16.920 with doctor Ramani. Hi, doctor Ramani, how are you? I'm good? 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:17.719 Thank you? How are you? 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.200 I'm fine? Thank you. It's nice to see you meet 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:20.679 both of you. 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.240 Oh, it's such a pleasure to have you on. We 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.000 talk a lot about what you're an expert in, and 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:29.439 it's just it's absolute honored to have you on the 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.920 show because you are an expert in this field and 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.880 I'm just curious, how how did you become an expert 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.679 in narcissism? Was it a relationship you had or experience? 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:41.920 Slow? And it was a slow brin. Actually I was 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.160 as a professor. I was an academic and doing research 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.319 on really difficult patients that would come into clinics and 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.839 make the nursing and reception staff miserable. And at the 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:53.880 same time, I also to private practice, and I was 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.560 seeing patients coming in and talking about the same marriage 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.880 over and over again. Minute dawned on me nobody's teaching 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.439 his clients about narcissism, and they're blaming themselves for this 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.480 other person's abusive behavior. And I thought, oh, this is 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.400 actually if I just educate them on this, maybe this 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.040 will set a lot of them free. And it did. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:14.240 I myself have family members who are horribly narcissistic. I've 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.640 been in relationships, I've been in work settings, but I 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:18.400 got to be honest with you, it was other people's 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.280 experiences that pushed me in this area. And I've been 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:24.520 doing this work god since the mid or like two 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.480 thousand and six. And when I first started doing it, 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.280 nobody was talking about this, and people are like, girl, 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.360 you're working on something nobody cares about so I care 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.160 about it, So I don't I don't need I don't 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:34.599 need anyone else to care about. It seems to be 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.040 helping the people I'm working with. And then and then 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.400 over the next ten years, more people got more interested 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:40.520 in it, so it was sort of something I was 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.320 doing quite quietly for a very long time. 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.560 Well, it is interesting too, because I feel like, even 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.720 just from the stuff that I share on my social 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:50.719 media or what we share on the podcast, like so 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:52.599 many people are like, oh wow, Like I had no 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.520 idea that like this is a part of narsism or 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.760 narcissm or oh my gosh, my husband does this or 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:00.800 And then I started to feel like a little bad 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.679 because I'm like, well, I don't want to ruin people's stuff, 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.280 but at the same time I want it's nice for 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.640 I think for me at least too, to get awareness 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.520 and for other people to get awareness of things like 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.040 I in my relationship, I was like, I felt crazy 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.760 and I felt, you know, like, well, why does he 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.199 hate me so much? And all these things? But I'm like, okay, wait, 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.480 that's not actually the reality, and I don't know. So 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.000 it's nice to get information. 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:25.680 Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:27.199 struggle with this, are like, oh, I don't want to 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.640 use this word. It feels so clitical, it feels so judgy, 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.640 And it's so interesting how much effort we put into 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:38.160 protecting abusers. It's really fascinating, like how can we make 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.440 this abusive person look good? I can't get behind that anymore, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.840 you know, And if people don't like the words, come 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:46.800 up with words you feel more comfortable with. But at 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.640 the end of the day, somebody who's doubting your reality 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:54.320 and validating you, leaving you constantly off balance and then 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.719 having their tantrums so then they feel better, but you're 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.600 left holding the bag. It's not okay. It's just simply 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:01.079 not okay. 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:03.400 Yeah, I mean, I know I can say I mean 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:04.719 the amount of times I'm like, oh, hey, can we 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:05.960 take that out because I don't want Mike to get 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:07.360 mad at me if I say this, or hey can 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.840 we take but it's like why am I so afraid 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.120 of his reaction? But it's the that reaction is like 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.199 but wait, no, don't hate me, Like I'm not the 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.599 one that, like, you know, like I didn't do that, 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.280 Like you're the one that ruined the marriage and all 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:21.760 these things, but like, why do you hate me? But 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.319 yet I can't speak my truth because you want me 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.079 to shut up and stop talking about it. And that's 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:26.480 the past. 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.520 So I think you bring up to such an important 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.959 point here, which is so many people in narcissistic relationships 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.880 feel like the bad one, that I'm the bad one, 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.480 that I'm saying these bad things. So so many people 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.560 become very isolated with their truth. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:41.800 Right. 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.439 They might have maybe one or two really close friends 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.599 and if they're lucky, a therapist that gets it. But 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.520 then to the world, they feel like, do I need 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.720 to keep faking it? Do I need to keep having 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.880 people thinking that this is okay? And if I'm the 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.439 one who's calling this stuff out, does this make me 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.800 the bad one? And remember, the narcissistic person's needs are 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.199 often being met in the relationship all the time because 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.199 the other person's running in circles, so they're not the 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.000 bad one, right, So it really traps a person in 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.679 an interesting corner. And I think that it's funny you 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.640 put it that way. Is that you said I don't 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.480 I didn't. I was afraid of his reaction, you know, 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:18.880 I didn't want to say things I was afraid of 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.920 his reaction. And for you, Jenna, it's also about going 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.680 back and thinking when in your life were you also 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.680 afraid of other people's reactions? Like where does that come from? 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.760 Because for some folks it's like you said, I don't 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.800 want to be the bad one, But for other folks 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.440 it's I'm just afraid of anger and rage. Like they 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.320 may have grown up in a home that was characterized 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.560 by anger or rage, so those kinds of reactions are 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.360 terrifying for them. So they keep giving in and giving 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.000 in and giving in to the narcissistic person so they 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.880 don't have to tolerate something that is so unsettling for them. 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:48.520 Hm. 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:51.880 That's so true. That a good question. 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.400 So yeah, I mean, what do you do or what 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.880 would you say for someone that is co parenting with 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.600 someone that you know? Yeah, like how do you how 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.240 would you recommend stepping into those waters? Because I I 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.720 My whole thing is I and I know this and 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:11.520 why I talked to it last week, As I said, 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.200 I engage because I'm thinking that I'm going to get empathy. 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:20.000 From the past, right and you're not so right there? 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.640 So that right there, you just gave the core of 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.400 what the key element of how to co parent is, 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.920 which is radical acceptance and realistic expectations. The empathy wasn't 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.120 there in the marriage, Why is it all of a 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.360 sudden going to start showing up now. Some people believe, well, 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:36.440 it's their kids, so that's going to bring out empathy. 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.000 Not so much. I mean, ultimately, the narcissistic person's very 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.120 self serving, and the children are end up being sort 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.880 of accessories in that life, and so and so. It's 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.520 a it's a realistic expectation that none of these patterns 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.680 are going to change. And what I often tell people 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.800 who are co parenting with a narcissist and they're no 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.320 longer in the relationship anymore, I tell them, you're doing 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.240 the equivalent of single parents with an elephant on your back, 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.560 because you still have to negotiate this territory with the narcissism. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.400 The challenge people have whe their co parenting with a 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.760 narcissist is they can't believe that this person keeps breaking 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.240 the rules. And I say, the realistic expectation is they're 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.120 always going to break the rule. I tell that folks 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.840 were single who are co parenting with a narcissist. You 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.480 are the sole bringer of routine, of order of empathy. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.720 You've got to be two parents because the other parent 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.520 is either a Disneyland parent or if they kind of 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.480 show up and are on point when they want to be, 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.080 but not at other times. So you're the place where 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.480 you bring consistency, you bring safety, you bring the things 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.600 that a child needs, and where a lot of people 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:49.360 get stuck. And so they're like, this is so not fair, okay, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.000 and life's not fair, you know. So what is fair 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.920 is recognizing we know this. We know this from the research. 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.480 All a kid needs is one really good parent that's 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.600 on point. One really good parent can save a child. 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.119 So a lot of people say, my kids are going 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.399 to be ruined. I tell every parent who's co parenting 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.800 with a narcissist, the biggest risk people have when they 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.119 have a narcissistic parent, even if it's only one, is 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.040 that their child is going to struggle with anxiety because 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:19.399 it's so unpredictable. You don't know if your parent is 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.600 on point, like you just don't know how to please them. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.920 It's a lot of hoop jumping. You might even see 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.760 your other your co parent, your other parents struggling. So 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:31.879 I'd say the majority of survivors of childhood narcissistic parents 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.280 end up as anxious adults, and we can sort of 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.840 step them back from that. The bigger concerns are the 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.960 kids who end up going off the rails in different ways, like, 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.080 for example, they become narcissistic themselves, or they turn to 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.800 other ways to cope. They rebel in a really hard way. Drugs, alcohol, 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.679 you know, acting out, sex, rock, you know, drugs, rock 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.800 and roll kind of thing. But by and large people 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.359 become anxious from this. So I tell folks who are 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.040 co parenting, choose your battles wisely. Some people are say 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.080 this is what the parenting agreements say, and they get 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.280 into that fight. I say, listen, let's say give you 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.120 an example. A lot of narcissistic folks during divorces will 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.120 fight tooth and nail for custody the way they want things, 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.920 the qualidays that want. They'll fight, fight, fight, and you 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.080 break your heart and you relent on some of it. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.920 Then the time comes when they're actually supposed to take 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.120 the kids, maybe six to nine months out, the fight 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.120 is no longer there, and they're like, well, I can't 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.080 do this weekend and I can't do this school thing 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.440 and mean what I tell the healthier co parent, I say, 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.800 grab up those dates, like nobody's business. Every day with 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.920 your kids is a good day. They just wanted to 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:36.440 show you they wanted to beat you down. I'm not 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.000 convinced that who ever wanted to be with the kids. 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.080 So when you can get those kids, don't say but 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:45.520 you said, just document, document that on seven days of 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:47.080 a month they said they were going to be with them, 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.520 they went out of town and they did this. Because 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.000 if you decide to update the parenting agreement and you're 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.440 using an app and something like Talking Parents or something 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.560 like that, using an app to document all of that, 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.240 that can actually then be entered into a court record. 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.720 So I tell people any day you can get your kids, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.480 good day, And I understand it might be inconvenient. Another 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:06.879 thing to remember, if you're co parenting with a narcissist 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.760 plan on them dropping the ball, always have your plan 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.760 B and your reinforcements in place, so when they can't 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.359 show up and they won't do this, you're just seamlessly 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.679 like okay, no worries, got it. And people say, well, 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.240