1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Wind down with Janet Kramer. 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 2: Did iHeart radio podcast? 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: Should we just get right to the penises? Or what? 4 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: What are we talking about today? 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 3: What penises? What are you referring to? 6 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 4: Which ones? 7 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of them. 8 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: There's a lot of them. Which one are you referring to? 9 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 3: I don't know. 10 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 5: You said let's get to the penises, and I mean, 11 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 5: my mind's going to a lot of places, so I know. 12 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Did you see the headline last week? 13 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 3: The uh again? Which headlines? 14 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: Headlines? No, they were like they they picked up. It 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: was just so silly because it's your faults, like you 16 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: are the reason why that whole thing even started. They're like, 17 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: why would she talk about that? I'm like, in my defense, 18 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: technically Easton was the one that brought that up, Like 19 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: there has to be something wrong with him, like I'm sure, 20 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: like sure, he is a micro penis. I'm like, that 21 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: was Easton. Why didn't any but he quote Easton? Why 22 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: didn't it say Easton hopes that Jana Kramer's boyfriend has 23 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: a micropenas. 24 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 5: I would love that headline. I didn't realize that made 25 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 5: for us, and I apologize. I don't want to when 26 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 5: I said it, I realized that couldn't come off as 27 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 5: like body shaving and stuff, and I felt I did 28 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 5: feel bad if you have a micro penis out there, 29 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 5: I'm sure it's beautiful and there's someone out there that 30 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 5: loves it, and all bodies are beautiful. 31 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 3: I was just looking for uh. 32 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 5: I was just looking for something about this man that 33 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 5: might explain other qualities about him, that's all. 34 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: It was just so funny though, because I'm like, I 35 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: didn't try to bring that up, but I'm like, but 36 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: then when you did, I'm like, well, it was kind 37 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: of funny because I did tell my girlfriend's like, there's 38 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: got to be something wrong, right, So but the fact 39 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm like that that's what they picked like picked up. 40 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my gosh, I'm like, not you 41 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: know that. I'm happy and. 42 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 3: Headline but. 43 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 5: Wow, I'm seeing that. Sorry, I'm seeing the headlines. There's 44 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 5: multiple news outlets. 45 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you for that. I really appreciate you. 46 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 3: I just like that. 47 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 5: It Page six says Jana Kramer once believed boyfriend had 48 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 5: a small phone. 49 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: Leaeve like, what is that? 50 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: I know? 51 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,839 Speaker 1: I was like, I didn't once believe, Like that's that's 52 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: it's a way out of context. Yeah, I was like, 53 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: not at all. I would never say that, Like, you know, 54 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: we joked about it, but like, how do you put that? 55 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: How do you put once believed doesn't? Well, Catherine, you 56 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: would know what what. 57 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 5: I was like. 58 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Oh yeah. 59 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: Never go on, I need some contacts here else is 60 00:02:52,320 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 3: gonna be wear headlines? No I'm not, Wow, I didn't. 61 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 5: Jana Kramer's podcast co hosts has a sexual history with 62 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 5: current boyfriends. 63 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: Negative, not at all, not true. No, this story is going. 64 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 4: Let's just say I have access to a lot of 65 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 4: Janna's stuff. 66 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: Okay, that would make sense, and things. 67 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 4: Just kind of bump up, you know sometimes. 68 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 3: As they do, and I'm. 69 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 4: You know, was traumatize. 70 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: But it's fine. 71 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 3: Who hasn't swiped too far in the camera? I mean 72 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 3: we've all been there. 73 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 4: It was me going through the camera role. Oh no, 74 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 4: would have been way more prepared. 75 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: The best part about this is like it happened right 76 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: before a podcast episode, so we were like about to 77 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: film and you know, a picture came up or something 78 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: when she because she was on my computer. I mean 79 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: it's my my computer, right, and she all of a 80 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: sudden I hear, Oh. 81 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 3: My god, was it an incoming text. 82 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, and here's the problem. It's like, don't react, don't read. 83 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: But how do you not react to that? 84 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 4: Like you know, in my head in those two seconds 85 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 4: before I react, it's like, don't react. I could not. 86 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 5: I love this man's style because like I want to 87 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 5: pull the curtain back of it. We record this podcast 88 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 5: like in the morning. I know, I know you guys 89 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 5: are in different time zone, but it's still like before 90 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 5: noon a lot of the time. Want some lunch a 91 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 5: dana here you go. 92 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 93 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: And so because we were just being like flirtsy qtsy 94 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: secon see or whatever. And yeah, and then she he 95 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: didn't know that Catherine was on my computer which has 96 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: my messages on there. Does he know now that I 97 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: saw he does. I told him that's uncomfortable. It's fine, 98 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: so young love, right, So so yeah, we I mean 99 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: we were dying. She goes, She was like, oh what 100 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: she goes? That that that that she goes. I can't 101 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: see it. I can't see it. I can't see. 102 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 4: The thing is is I had forgotten about it. I 103 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: think I blocked it out of my mind, but now 104 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 4: you're bringing. 105 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:42,799 Speaker 3: It all back. 106 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 4: But also I think it was before it was at 107 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: our friends Queendom right podcast. 108 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think everybody else is here. Oh that's right. 109 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: It was ripe. It was it was ripe. So so 110 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: that wasn't in the morning. 111 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 4: That was morning. 112 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: That was like, yeah, okay, it was it was our 113 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: girls queen then that's right. And we did it at 114 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: like eight thirty because I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 115 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: I think so. 116 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 4: I don't know, I was traumatized. It's fine. 117 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: That is so funny. I mean, I guess you can 118 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: answer the question, though, was a bigger I'm just kidding. 119 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 3: I don't dwell on this too much. But what angle 120 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 3: did he choose? 121 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: That's oh my god, I don't remember. 122 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: I do. 123 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: That's the best shoot I do. Wow. Have you ever 124 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: seen a Dick pic Easton? 125 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 3: Yes? 126 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a common thing because I got to 127 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: be honest with you, like, you know, shoot, I've been 128 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: in the day. You know, I was married for seven 129 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 1: something almost years. I don't I never got Dick pics, 130 00:06:58,720 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: so you know, so it's like, I don't know. Dick 131 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: pick was like the still thing. 132 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: So I was actually wants them, No one wants them, 133 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 3: I don't think. 134 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know, I don't know I've done 135 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 5: it with like girlfriends, you know, but like even then, 136 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 5: I felt weird about it because it's not a good 137 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 5: looking part of the body. 138 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: I don't think, Dick, I disagree. 139 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you don't like I mean, you're a man. 140 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: I think girls like. 141 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: I don't know. 142 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: Whatever you like. You know, it's okay to like whatever 143 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: whatever you're into. 144 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I don't know. I just I think that 145 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 3: it's a That's why I asked about the angle, because 146 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 3: it's a hard thing to photograph too, you know, as. 147 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 4: Someone say, it was nice, Okay, I see, I didn't 148 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 4: like the angle. 149 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 3: Oh I love the angle. 150 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: I loved the angle. This is hilarious. 151 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: This is like, are. 152 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: Sorry to my husband? Great, we're friends because. 153 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 4: I totally didn't tell them that he doesn't It's fine. 154 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: I just you know, I wanted to bring a little 155 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: comedy because I knew you just got done with therapy 156 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: and I didn't know what I was walking into. 157 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 4: Thinks that was what your therapist needed, was needed. 158 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Okay, was a hard one. Oh yeah, that was good though. 159 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 4: God I love her. I can't I leave and I 160 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 4: just cried because I love her so much. 161 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: I know. 162 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, this is tough. Cards on the ground. 163 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: Oh the cards. 164 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: Oh shoot, I usually. 165 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 4: Wait ten sessions till I get to this, and we're 166 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 4: not at ten, but we're gonna go for it. 167 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 3: What are the cards? 168 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 4: It's like you put their like emotions, basically, and you 169 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 4: put in one pile, ones that you're feeling right now, 170 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 4: ones that you want to feel in the future, and 171 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 4: the ones that don't apply. Let's just say mine work 172 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 4: all over the place. They were all over the place. 173 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: But that's good. I still have a photo of mine. 174 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: Actually I'm gonna I'll pull it up because I'm curious 175 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: to see which, like where if we were, ours are 176 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: the same, but like I remember, mine is like a 177 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: lot of mine was like it was when I was 178 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: still married, Like I felt scared and sad and closed 179 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: off and broken and like those were like all of 180 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: my cards, and it's like where I want to go. 181 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: And she was kind of like okay, like and how 182 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: do you get to that? And I'm like, I'm not, 183 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: don't stay in my marriage, you know, or you know, 184 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: and she's just like and you know, she's not trying 185 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: to lead me in that direction at all. But then 186 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: she's like, okay, well, you know, or whatever else can 187 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,719 Speaker 1: we do or it's like it's just hard realizing that 188 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: when you're like, oh, shoot, these are these are the 189 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: cards I lay down. Yeah, Like it's just like this, 190 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: like it kind of sucks to see, but it's also 191 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: I feel like very healing to see too, to like 192 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: notice where you're at. 193 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't have a clear answer for how do 194 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 4: you get there? That's the hard part. You're so clear. 195 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: I mean I wasn't because I stayed another year. 196 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 4: But you kind of were clear with what the answer was. 197 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,599 Speaker 1: I feel like, well, things had to change or I 198 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: had to leave and things didn't change, so I had 199 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,599 Speaker 1: to you know. Yeah, but we're going to take a 200 00:09:58,640 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: break and then we're going to get we're going to 201 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: ge continue on the conversation we had from last week 202 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: with doctor Ramani. Hi, doctor Ramani, how are you? I'm good? 203 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: Thank you? How are you? 204 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 2: I'm fine? Thank you. It's nice to see you meet 205 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 2: both of you. 206 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: Oh, it's such a pleasure to have you on. We 207 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: talk a lot about what you're an expert in, and 208 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: it's just it's absolute honored to have you on the 209 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: show because you are an expert in this field and 210 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, how how did you become an expert 211 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: in narcissism? Was it a relationship you had or experience? 212 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: Slow? And it was a slow brin. Actually I was 213 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: as a professor. I was an academic and doing research 214 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 2: on really difficult patients that would come into clinics and 215 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 2: make the nursing and reception staff miserable. And at the 216 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: same time, I also to private practice, and I was 217 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: seeing patients coming in and talking about the same marriage 218 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: over and over again. Minute dawned on me nobody's teaching 219 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 2: his clients about narcissism, and they're blaming themselves for this 220 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: other person's abusive behavior. And I thought, oh, this is 221 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: actually if I just educate them on this, maybe this 222 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: will set a lot of them free. And it did. 223 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: I myself have family members who are horribly narcissistic. I've 224 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: been in relationships, I've been in work settings, but I 225 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: got to be honest with you, it was other people's 226 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: experiences that pushed me in this area. And I've been 227 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: doing this work god since the mid or like two 228 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: thousand and six. And when I first started doing it, 229 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: nobody was talking about this, and people are like, girl, 230 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: you're working on something nobody cares about so I care 231 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: about it, So I don't I don't need I don't 232 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,599 Speaker 2: need anyone else to care about. It seems to be 233 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: helping the people I'm working with. And then and then 234 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: over the next ten years, more people got more interested 235 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: in it, so it was sort of something I was 236 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: doing quite quietly for a very long time. 237 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: Well, it is interesting too, because I feel like, even 238 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: just from the stuff that I share on my social 239 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: media or what we share on the podcast, like so 240 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,599 Speaker 1: many people are like, oh wow, Like I had no 241 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: idea that like this is a part of narsism or 242 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: narcissm or oh my gosh, my husband does this or 243 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: And then I started to feel like a little bad 244 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, I don't want to ruin people's stuff, 245 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: but at the same time I want it's nice for 246 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: I think for me at least too, to get awareness 247 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: and for other people to get awareness of things like 248 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: I in my relationship, I was like, I felt crazy 249 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: and I felt, you know, like, well, why does he 250 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: hate me so much? And all these things? But I'm like, okay, wait, 251 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: that's not actually the reality, and I don't know. So 252 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: it's nice to get information. 253 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people 254 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 2: struggle with this, are like, oh, I don't want to 255 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: use this word. It feels so clitical, it feels so judgy, 256 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: And it's so interesting how much effort we put into 257 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: protecting abusers. It's really fascinating, like how can we make 258 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 2: this abusive person look good? I can't get behind that anymore, 259 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: you know, And if people don't like the words, come 260 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: up with words you feel more comfortable with. But at 261 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: the end of the day, somebody who's doubting your reality 262 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 2: and validating you, leaving you constantly off balance and then 263 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 2: having their tantrums so then they feel better, but you're 264 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: left holding the bag. It's not okay. It's just simply 265 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 2: not okay. 266 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I know I can say I mean 267 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 1: the amount of times I'm like, oh, hey, can we 268 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: take that out because I don't want Mike to get 269 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: mad at me if I say this, or hey can 270 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: we take but it's like why am I so afraid 271 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: of his reaction? But it's the that reaction is like 272 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: but wait, no, don't hate me, Like I'm not the 273 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: one that, like, you know, like I didn't do that, 274 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: Like you're the one that ruined the marriage and all 275 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: these things, but like, why do you hate me? But 276 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: yet I can't speak my truth because you want me 277 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: to shut up and stop talking about it. And that's 278 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: the past. 279 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: So I think you bring up to such an important 280 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 2: point here, which is so many people in narcissistic relationships 281 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: feel like the bad one, that I'm the bad one, 282 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: that I'm saying these bad things. So so many people 283 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 2: become very isolated with their truth. 284 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: Right. 285 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: They might have maybe one or two really close friends 286 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 2: and if they're lucky, a therapist that gets it. But 287 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: then to the world, they feel like, do I need 288 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: to keep faking it? Do I need to keep having 289 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: people thinking that this is okay? And if I'm the 290 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 2: one who's calling this stuff out, does this make me 291 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: the bad one? And remember, the narcissistic person's needs are 292 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 2: often being met in the relationship all the time because 293 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 2: the other person's running in circles, so they're not the 294 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: bad one, right, So it really traps a person in 295 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 2: an interesting corner. And I think that it's funny you 296 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: put it that way. Is that you said I don't 297 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: I didn't. I was afraid of his reaction, you know, 298 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: I didn't want to say things I was afraid of 299 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: his reaction. And for you, Jenna, it's also about going 300 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: back and thinking when in your life were you also 301 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: afraid of other people's reactions? Like where does that come from? 302 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: Because for some folks it's like you said, I don't 303 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: want to be the bad one, But for other folks 304 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: it's I'm just afraid of anger and rage. Like they 305 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: may have grown up in a home that was characterized 306 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: by anger or rage, so those kinds of reactions are 307 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: terrifying for them. So they keep giving in and giving 308 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: in and giving in to the narcissistic person so they 309 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: don't have to tolerate something that is so unsettling for them. 310 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: Hm. 311 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: That's so true. That a good question. 312 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, what do you do or what 313 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: would you say for someone that is co parenting with 314 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: someone that you know? Yeah, like how do you how 315 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: would you recommend stepping into those waters? Because I I 316 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: My whole thing is I and I know this and 317 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: why I talked to it last week, As I said, 318 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: I engage because I'm thinking that I'm going to get empathy. 319 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: From the past, right and you're not so right there? 320 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: So that right there, you just gave the core of 321 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: what the key element of how to co parent is, 322 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: which is radical acceptance and realistic expectations. The empathy wasn't 323 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: there in the marriage, Why is it all of a 324 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: sudden going to start showing up now. Some people believe, well, 325 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: it's their kids, so that's going to bring out empathy. 326 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: Not so much. I mean, ultimately, the narcissistic person's very 327 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: self serving, and the children are end up being sort 328 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: of accessories in that life, and so and so. It's 329 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: a it's a realistic expectation that none of these patterns 330 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: are going to change. And what I often tell people 331 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: who are co parenting with a narcissist and they're no 332 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: longer in the relationship anymore, I tell them, you're doing 333 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: the equivalent of single parents with an elephant on your back, 334 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: because you still have to negotiate this territory with the narcissism. 335 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: The challenge people have whe their co parenting with a 336 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: narcissist is they can't believe that this person keeps breaking 337 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: the rules. And I say, the realistic expectation is they're 338 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: always going to break the rule. I tell that folks 339 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: were single who are co parenting with a narcissist. You 340 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: are the sole bringer of routine, of order of empathy. 341 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 2: You've got to be two parents because the other parent 342 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: is either a Disneyland parent or if they kind of 343 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: show up and are on point when they want to be, 344 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: but not at other times. So you're the place where 345 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: you bring consistency, you bring safety, you bring the things 346 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: that a child needs, and where a lot of people 347 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: get stuck. And so they're like, this is so not fair, okay, 348 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: and life's not fair, you know. So what is fair 349 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: is recognizing we know this. We know this from the research. 350 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: All a kid needs is one really good parent that's 351 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: on point. One really good parent can save a child. 352 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 2: So a lot of people say, my kids are going 353 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 2: to be ruined. I tell every parent who's co parenting 354 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: with a narcissist, the biggest risk people have when they 355 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 2: have a narcissistic parent, even if it's only one, is 356 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: that their child is going to struggle with anxiety because 357 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 2: it's so unpredictable. You don't know if your parent is 358 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: on point, like you just don't know how to please them. 359 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 2: It's a lot of hoop jumping. You might even see 360 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: your other your co parent, your other parents struggling. So 361 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: I'd say the majority of survivors of childhood narcissistic parents 362 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: end up as anxious adults, and we can sort of 363 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: step them back from that. The bigger concerns are the 364 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: kids who end up going off the rails in different ways, like, 365 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: for example, they become narcissistic themselves, or they turn to 366 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: other ways to cope. They rebel in a really hard way. Drugs, alcohol, 367 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 2: you know, acting out, sex, rock, you know, drugs, rock 368 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: and roll kind of thing. But by and large people 369 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: become anxious from this. So I tell folks who are 370 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: co parenting, choose your battles wisely. Some people are say 371 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: this is what the parenting agreements say, and they get 372 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: into that fight. I say, listen, let's say give you 373 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 2: an example. A lot of narcissistic folks during divorces will 374 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 2: fight tooth and nail for custody the way they want things, 375 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 2: the qualidays that want. They'll fight, fight, fight, and you 376 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: break your heart and you relent on some of it. 377 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: Then the time comes when they're actually supposed to take 378 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 2: the kids, maybe six to nine months out, the fight 379 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 2: is no longer there, and they're like, well, I can't 380 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: do this weekend and I can't do this school thing 381 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 2: and mean what I tell the healthier co parent, I say, 382 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: grab up those dates, like nobody's business. Every day with 383 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 2: your kids is a good day. They just wanted to 384 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 2: show you they wanted to beat you down. I'm not 385 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: convinced that who ever wanted to be with the kids. 386 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: So when you can get those kids, don't say but 387 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: you said, just document, document that on seven days of 388 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: a month they said they were going to be with them, 389 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: they went out of town and they did this. Because 390 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: if you decide to update the parenting agreement and you're 391 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 2: using an app and something like Talking Parents or something 392 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: like that, using an app to document all of that, 393 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: that can actually then be entered into a court record. 394 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: So I tell people any day you can get your kids, 395 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: good day, And I understand it might be inconvenient. Another 396 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 2: thing to remember, if you're co parenting with a narcissist 397 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: plan on them dropping the ball, always have your plan 398 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: B and your reinforcements in place, so when they can't 399 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 2: show up and they won't do this, you're just seamlessly 400 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 2: like okay, no worries, got it. And people say, well, 401 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. I tell folks, 402 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: this would have been a lot easier if you got 403 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 2: one hundred percent of custody, so in a way, you 404 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: would have been already doing these workarounds. It's not about fair, 405 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: it's not about their getting away with something. It's about 406 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: your kids. And that's what I always tell people when 407 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: it comes to co parenting. 408 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also feel like, too, that's really good advice. 409 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: Where I was having a tough time because I, you know, 410 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: obviously I didn't want to be divorced. I don't want 411 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: to be co parenting. But when I do have my 412 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: kids now, it's like my main focus is giving them 413 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: memories because they're not going to remember that they were 414 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: with mom seventy percent of the time and dad thirty. 415 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: Like they're gonna remember the memories we make, the times 416 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: we spend together, what we do. They're not going to 417 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: remember like, oh oh well, I mean they'll probably know 418 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: with my situationsin seventy thirty like yes we were at 419 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: moms more, but still like they're not going to know 420 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: the exact you know, when they're the kids. So I'm like, 421 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: just make the memories and focus on that, and then yeah, 422 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: I mean to your point. He asked me if I 423 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: you know I wanted them over his holiday break, and 424 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: I was like, one thousand percent absolutely, because I'm just 425 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: I like, I want that time with my babies as 426 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: much as possible. So yeah, I love that. I do 427 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: have a question though, on okay, because there's a lot 428 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: of characteristics of narcissism. So how many do you have 429 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: to have to actually be a narcissist? Because I feel 430 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: like a lot of times you can look at it 431 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: and go, well, like, I mean, I kind of like 432 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: do maybe one of those? 433 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: So what we want to remember is that when we 434 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: think about narcissism, think of it as like sort of 435 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: the core elements of it, and those are things like 436 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: lack of empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, being very sensitive and 437 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: reactively sensitive when somebody gives critics or feedback, being really egocentric, 438 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: being really superficial, constantly seeking validation. That's the core. Okay. Now, 439 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: some people say, well, I like praise. Does that make 440 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: me narcissistic? No, that makes you a human being, right, 441 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: Or a person might say, I don't know, I love clothes, 442 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: I love fashion. Is that superficial? 443 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: No? 444 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: Not if you're empathic alongside that, you see what I'm saying. 445 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: So I think people kind of get lost in sort 446 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: of the armchair kind of theatrical version of narcissism, and 447 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: they forget that it's really a constant, pervasive presence. This 448 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 2: is not somebody who is usually a nice person and 449 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: then on a day when they're tired or a lot's 450 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 2: going wrong, they snap a little bit and then they 451 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: quickly apologize like I had no right to do that. 452 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: This is not one bad day. This is about years, 453 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 2: lifetimes of bad days interspersed with good ones. That's how 454 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 2: they trick us, right. They're charming, they're charismatic, they're confident, 455 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 2: they're curious about us. They seem super fun until they don't, 456 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 2: and then the bad days get mixed in with the 457 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: good days. But the problem is the bad days are brutal. 458 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: They're abusive, and they're invalidating, and they're manipulative and they're 459 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 2: gas lighting. They're terrible bad days. It's not just somebody 460 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: who's just I don't know, leaving towels on the floor. 461 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: So I don't you know. One thing I tell people 462 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: is there's no such thing as healthy narcissism. Narcissism, by definition, 463 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 2: is an unhealthy pattern. I think that it's on a continuum. 464 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 2: There's milder levels of narcissism, where some people are more 465 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 2: almost emotionally stunted, really immature, really vapid, really ridiculous, really 466 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 2: validation seeking. Their empathy is spotty, like if they're having 467 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: a good day, they think everyone's having a good day, 468 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: so stunted, they're like forever adolescent. That's at the milder level, 469 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: but as we keep going into the more severe levels, 470 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: it's really really bad for us. But even those milder levels, 471 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: I don't see how a person could make a relationship 472 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: of any depth go with a person like that for 473 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 2: any long period of time. As soon as the going 474 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 2: gets tough, those people have no interest in real life. 475 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: They just want to again forever be childish and immature, 476 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 2: and so they're not really they're not great for marriage 477 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: and children and growing old together. They're not made for that. 478 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 4: So on the other side of that, I just think, 479 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 4: you know, it's such a thing now, Like you said, 480 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 4: people weren't really talking about it much ten years ago. 481 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 4: Now we're all starting to talk about it. So if 482 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 4: people are recognizing this and themselves and they are owning 483 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 4: that and they're gonna, you know, want to try and 484 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 4: get better. Do you just recommend therapy for them? Or like, 485 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 4: how do you get out of this narcissistic behavior. 486 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: So it's a good question. In the majority, and in 487 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: the vast majority of cases, this doesn't change there really doesn't. 488 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: It is the ones who change are the unicorns. I 489 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 2: think I've seen significant change in a narcissist twice in 490 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: my career. And I've been doing this for twenty five years, Okay, 491 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: in my own life, like personal life, not people I treat, 492 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 2: I've seen significant change. 493 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: Twice. 494 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: I mean, and I'm fifty six, right, so I mean 495 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 2: I'm telling you, like, these are these are not short 496 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 2: periods of time that you know, so it doesn't happen. 497 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what, it's very, very hard to 498 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: find a therapist that can work with a narcissistic client. 499 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: These are the you know, these are the jedis of therapy. Like, 500 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: it's very very I've worked with many narcissistic clients, some 501 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 2: of them ten years or longer. I think I'm a 502 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: good therapist. I've done amazing work with many clients with 503 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 2: the narcissistic clients. I'm not kidding you. I think we've 504 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 2: moved the needle like a millimeter and we've done good work. 505 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 2: And it's just the problem is this, When a narcissistic 506 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 2: person faces frustration, stress, disappointment, anything that sort of pops 507 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: their little bubble boom game on, they lose it and 508 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 2: so and they take it out on the people around 509 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 2: them until they can manage that, they get out of 510 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 2: their heads that everything always has to be perfect for 511 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: them all the time, they're going to keep having these meltdowns. So, yes, 512 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: I I think therapy is absolutely critical. And I would 513 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 2: say for somebody who says I don't like this pattern 514 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 2: in me, I am aware I'm blowing people's lives up. 515 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: I am aware that I'm acting like a jerk. I 516 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: am aware that I'm not a nice person. Great, Okay, 517 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: I think it takes a lot of courage to do that. Yes, therapy, 518 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: but above and beyond therapy, every day, every hour, every 519 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: fifty every minute of every day, that narcissistic person has 520 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 2: to be self aware of how their words, their actions, 521 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: their everything affects other people and think before they speak, 522 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: find ways to cope with their disappointment, recognize other people 523 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: have needs. I have to tell you, I've worked with 524 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: some narcissistic clients, and I remember a couple in particular 525 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: who said they really did. They gave it the old college. 526 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: Try this, say I can't be bothered. This is exhausting. 527 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: And you know what they said, I'm gonna break up 528 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 2: my marriage. I'm gonna end of my marriage. And they 529 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: this person have one person, particularly, he had a woman 530 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 2: on the side. He's like, I'm ending my marriage, I'm 531 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: ending my relationship with this woman, I'm having an affair 532 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: with I'm moving out, moving into an apartment. I have 533 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 2: lots of friends I don't you know, and they're fine 534 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 2: with me being an ass and so and then that's it, 535 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 2: and they this person recognized I don't have what it 536 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: takes and I don't want to hurt people. This person 537 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 2: acknowledged I don't want to hurt people. But I can't 538 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 2: be in a relationship because I don't have patience. I 539 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 2: don't care about another person's feelings other than at this 540 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: the most superficial level. And then he found someone he's like, 541 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: but I like sex. He found somebody paid once a 542 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: month or maybe twice a month, come over, hang out, 543 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: leave it to in the morning, and he's like, that's 544 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: really all I really wanted. And it was an incredible 545 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 2: revelation because this was somebody saying, this is too much work. 546 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 2: It's almost like trying to lose weight. We know what 547 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 2: we need to do, change what we eat, exercise. Most 548 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 2: people like, oh, heck no, I got to eat me 549 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: my cheese cake. I got I'm not giving off this 550 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 2: other stuff. And it's a very similar model for people 551 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 2: who are narcissistic. A lot of them don't, you know, 552 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: even if they want to do the work, it is 553 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 2: a life, life, daily, daily commitment to that. I think 554 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 2: many narcissistic people they'll have no insights. But the ones 555 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 2: who do have insight if you did the work every 556 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 2: day and paid attention and recognize it's not okay to 557 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 2: rage at other people when you don't get your way, 558 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 2: and you have to have empathy and yes, you have 559 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 2: to wait in line like the rest of us. I mean, 560 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: like I said, I've seen it happen maybe four times 561 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: in my life. And they worked hard. They worked hard. 562 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: What if the narcissist says they only act this way 563 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: towards you because you're like because they hate you so much, 564 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: Like they only act this anger like I'm not like that. 565 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: I'm not that person anymore. I only do this because 566 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: because of you, and you bring this out in me. 567 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: It's not true. I mean, it's completely not true. This 568 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: is a pervasive pattern. What we see with a lot 569 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: of narcissistic folks, though, is they can really be brutal 570 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: in their most high stakes relationship, like an intimate relationship 571 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: or family relationship or something like that, but all of 572 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 2: their other relationships are so superficial and are giving them 573 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: narcissistic supply. You're such a great guy, you're so cool. 574 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: There's a lot of that, you know, but there's no 575 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 2: depth there. These people are almost either as superficial as 576 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 2: a narcissist, or they're enablers, or they're benefiting in some 577 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: way financially or something. There's some benefit to them for 578 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: staying in the friendship. So all of their other relationships 579 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 2: are so superficial or with enablers. So it is quite 580 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 2: conceivable that just a very small group of people are 581 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 2: getting the worst of it because the other people aren't 582 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: going deep with them. But this idea that you're the 583 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 2: only person I treat this way. They treat everybody badly. 584 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: I imagine this is a person who would treat store 585 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: clerks badly or a person on an airplane badly. They're 586 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 2: just rude when things don't go the way they want. 587 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: It's just that that high impact person, the intimate partner, 588 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: usually gets the worst of it. 589 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you know, obviously you've got amazing books out, 590 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: So the one that should you stay or should you go? 591 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: I mean, what is your number one thing that you 592 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: tell couples or people in relationships when dealing with this, 593 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: like when because a lot of times you're like when 594 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: is enough enough? And I'm like, for me, it was like, 595 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, I had my final s jobs, you know, 596 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: six seven years later. But I mean it took it 597 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: took a while. But I think it's it's hard because 598 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: they make you feel so crazy that even to this day, 599 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: even co parenting, I'm like, am I the you know, 600 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: he's like calling yourself an EmPATH is comical, and I'm like, 601 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: but I do have empathy, and I I I'm like, 602 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: you call you're calling me a narcissist, Like you're a narcissist. 603 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: And it's like this back and forth, like I'm like, 604 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: how like it's like, and I'm like, well, I don't know, 605 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: maybe I am like I like I Then I start 606 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: to like question it and I'm like, am I crazy? 607 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 2: Well that what you just described is gaslighting? Right, So 608 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: every everybody and in addition to the word narcissism, everybody's 609 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: using the word gas lighting it most people are using 610 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: it wrong. Gaslighting is not a one off, it's a process, right, 611 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: and a gas lighter you kind of have to have 612 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,239 Speaker 2: some trust or some skin in the game with them, right. 613 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 2: You want in essence, you you believe in that person 614 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: for some reason, you love them, or they're your boss 615 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: or your family member, like you want to believe them. 616 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: So over time, what the gas lighter does is they 617 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: doubt your reality. I never said that, that never happened. 618 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: You're being too sensitive. You have no right to feel 619 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 2: that way. And you're like, okay, so now your reality 620 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: is like don't I have a right to feel that way? 621 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: Or did that really happen? 622 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: Well, we're divorce that my feelings don't matter. You feels 623 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: don't matter are an issue anymore? 624 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, my feelings don't matter. Okay, So reality is being doubted. 625 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: But then they double down at that point, and then 626 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: they say, wow, you're so sensitive, like have you been 627 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: seen by a psychiatrist because there's something really wrong with you, 628 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: or you're not remembering stuff like I'm wondering are you drinking? 629 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: Like is something wrong with you? Like they'll literally try 630 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: to paint a picture of that person whose reality they've 631 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: always already doubted as being crazy or as being something's 632 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: wrong with them medically, psychiatrically, you name it. So now 633 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 2: this person might actually start buying the hype. Maybe I'm 634 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: the narcissist. Maybe I'm the one who's being unreasonable. Maybe 635 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,959 Speaker 2: I am too sensitive. I do need to get therapy. 636 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,239 Speaker 2: And now this person it's almost like how you bring 637 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 2: someone into a cult. You make them so reliant on 638 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: you for reality that they're stuck. And so that process 639 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 2: of gas slighting is why people get stuck in these 640 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: relationships for so long, because the narcissist in some ways 641 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: is the holder of the reality. If somebody gets into 642 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: therapy with someone good, that good therapist is say, girl, 643 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: you're being gaslight and then a personally was that? And 644 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 2: then you walk them through it and you have them 645 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: keep journals and bring it. I've had so many clients 646 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 2: have recorded conversations and play it in session, and I'm 647 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: like gaslight, minimization, abuse and validation, Like we just break 648 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: it down and they'll think, they say, thank you so much. 649 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: Now I can make some choices. Keep in mind the 650 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: whole the concept behind should I say or should I go? 651 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: When I wrote that book was it's very simplistic to 652 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 2: tell everyone going through narcissistic abuse leave. Obviously that's the 653 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: best path, because the less time you spend with the 654 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 2: narcissist the better. It's like something toxic. If you're not 655 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: near the toxic thing, like secondhand smoke, you won't feel sick. Right, 656 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: the closer you are to it, the sicker it makes you. 657 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: But that's not an option open to everybody. Because of custody, 658 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: because of money, because of culture, religion, whatever a person's 659 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: reasons are. I have no right to sit there and 660 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: say you gotta go. I do understand a lot of 661 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: people feel stuck or they still aren't ready to go, 662 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: So I give them both. I tell them this is 663 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: what these two pathsways, and these two options look like 664 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: what you say. Six or seven years before I figured 665 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: out what was going on and wanted to get out 666 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: that's not odd. I'm to tell you now, I think 667 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 2: I've worked with folks who've been in narcissistic marriages for 668 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: sixty years. So it literally can take and they leave 669 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 2: when they're eighty. Believe it or not too like it's not. 670 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a point at which more and where 671 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 2: people get the knowledge and recognize this is never going 672 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: to change, because that's the baseline. It's really not going 673 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: to change. And even if there's a little bit of change, 674 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: the person hurt by the narcissists has been hurt in 675 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: such a permanent way. They might say, good for you, 676 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: you want to go, change, go, but you've damaged me 677 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,479 Speaker 2: too much. I can't do this anymore. And so the idea, though, 678 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: is what the narcissistic person tries to do. It's all 679 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: about dominance. It's all about power and control, and it's 680 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: all about harming the other person in a way that 681 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: it makes it harder to leave, and even when the 682 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: relationship is done, to sort of keep them down. And 683 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: that's and so it's I really tell people, fifty percent 684 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 2: of people stay and fifty percent of people go, and 685 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 2: there's no shame in either of those. And a lot 686 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: of people go and then they come back. And that's 687 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: also normal too, because there's so much hope that people have. 688 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 2: It's going to change, it's going to change. I'm telling 689 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: you here to tell you it's not going to change. 690 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: So you know that's the fact is, if you go 691 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: it's not going to change. I can give you that guarantee. 692 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: If you go back, I can also promise you it's 693 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: not going to get better. 694 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: So starting a new relationship, then what are some of 695 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: the signs that you know? I mean, obviously right now 696 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: everything is amazing with new my new man, but like, 697 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: what is something I mean, I kind of with my history. 698 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: I'm very sensitive to things. But is there anything that 699 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: I should be aware of or a sign or anything 700 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: that you say to people that start new relationships. 701 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: I always tell people when they start new relationships after 702 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: having been through a toxic one, you've got to understand 703 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: what a healthy relationship is. I'm always struck by how 704 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: many people don't even know what the definition of a 705 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 2: healthy relationship is. And it's kindness, compassion, respect, what we 706 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: call mutuality of regard. Like you both, there's a back 707 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: and a forth and awareness of what's important to the 708 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: other person. There's something we call reciprocity. There's given, take, 709 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 2: there's compromise, and there is a growth orientation that both 710 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 2: each person in the relationship wants the other person to grow. 711 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 2: In other words, in a narcissistic relationship, the person doesn't 712 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 2: want the other person to grow, doesn't want them to 713 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 2: succeed because it'll make them look bad or they are 714 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: In all narcissistic people have abandonment fears. They always think 715 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 2: the other person's going to go because they're so insecure. 716 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 2: That's the true core of narcissism, insecurity and feelings of inadequacy. Right. 717 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 2: So it's kind of sad when you think about it, 718 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 2: but I don't care how sad it is. Abuse is abuse. 719 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 2: So in a new relationship, I tell people you got 720 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 2: to look for those fundamentals, and if those fundamentals aren't there, 721 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 2: you got to get out of dodge. But then it's 722 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: almost the behavioral stuff. It's things like how does a 723 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 2: person receive feedback? If a person gets it's really touchy 724 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 2: and defensive and icky when you give them feedback, it's 725 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: a really really bad sign because you may not like 726 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 2: what someone's saying and they might give you feedback. That's 727 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 2: uncomfortable in a new relationship. But if that person says, oh, 728 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 2: this is so hard for me to hear, but I 729 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 2: need to hear it or can hear, or say give 730 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: me a minute instead of raging or saying yeah, you 731 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 2: say that about me, well, let me tell you this 732 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: about you. That's the kind of thing we're looking for. 733 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 2: I'd say that shows up pretty early in a more 734 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 2: toxic relationship. We look at how a person treats other people. 735 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: How do they treat people who do have less power 736 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 2: around them? That might be people who work in service occupations, 737 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 2: who might work in a household. How are those people treated, 738 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 2: How are they talked about? If there's any dismissive kinds 739 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 2: of conversation there. I would tell people to get out. 740 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: How much validation and admiration do they need they does 741 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: it feel like they always have to have every you know, 742 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 2: it's almost of the flip side of that, like when 743 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 2: they go in everywhere, they need to be every you know, 744 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 2: Bartender's best friend and everyone has to like them, and 745 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: it's all about how they look to the world. You know, 746 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 2: like approval, but that approval those different than admiration, Jenna. 747 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 2: You know, approval is that's something for you to work 748 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: on in your own therapeutic Yeah, because in some ways 749 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: that's a that's sort of a monkey in our back, 750 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 2: but that's very different. That's almost like an inner child's 751 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 2: piece of view that wants to be approved, but admirations 752 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: like look how great I am? You know, and it's 753 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: very different. So something else you'd want to look for. 754 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: I'd also look at how whether someone can be present. 755 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 2: Are they always looking at their phone or their watch 756 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 2: or out the window. It always seems that they're looking 757 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 2: out the door to see if someone better is going 758 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: to sort of metaphorically walk in. Are they able to 759 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: be present even in moments you might consider boring or tedious. 760 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 2: That's another thing to pay attention to. Those are the 761 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 2: signs I tell people, And if something doesn't feel good, 762 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: I also tell people what's the pace of the relationship. 763 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 2: Narcissistic people like fast relationships because what it means is 764 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: that red flags get ignored the faster they move and 765 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 2: the quicker they kind of get it sealed the deal. 766 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 2: Now a person's in something pretty deep and they're like, 767 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 2: this isn't so good, but now I've agreed to I 768 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: don't live with someone or marry someone, or I'm pregnant 769 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 2: or whatever. Those things can actually get people stuck, and 770 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 2: narcissistic people, as a rule tend to want to go 771 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 2: fast because it's just sort of, like I said, for them, 772 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 2: it sort of gets around the insecurity for them because 773 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: they feel that the other person's less likely to leave. 774 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: Got it, well, doctor Imani, thank you so much for 775 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: coming on, and I think hopefully, I mean, I know 776 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: it helped me a lot, and hopefully everyone that's listening 777 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: it helped as well. And then we're gonna put your 778 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: books up here on the site. Don't you know who 779 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: I am? And should I stay or should I go 780 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: on Amazon get them? I'm ordering them right now. So 781 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on, and hopefully I'll 782 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: talk to you soon, but hopefully not. You know, like 783 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: I kind of want to like stop talking about this now, 784 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: so but I appreciate you. 785 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Thank you for the time, and 786 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: I thank you, and I hope your listeners benefit as 787 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 2: you did as well, and let people know that after 788 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse, I've seen actually incredible love stories and life stories, 789 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 2: So there is life after this. 790 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you, Hank, Thank you it's so 791 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: funny that one of those I'm like, oh wait, I'm like, well, 792 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: I mean I like to move fast sometimes. I was like, 793 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: but I mean it's different this time around. 794 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that that's just you can have 795 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 4: insecurities but not be narcissistic. 796 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 1: Very interesting some of that. I mean, so it's good 797 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: she's she's very good. You can tell she's like. 798 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 4: A yeah, I found it very interesting though, Like I 799 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 4: don't you know, I can't really think of necessarily narcissistic 800 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,439 Speaker 4: people in my life, but it seems so like kind 801 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 4: of hopeless if you see that in yourself, you know 802 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 4: what I mean. 803 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I guess like so many, like more people 804 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't see them. 805 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 4: They just wouldn't see it. 806 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, like my ex will never Let's just say he's one. 807 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 4: That just like kind of made me sad because it's like, well, 808 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 4: what's the hope for people to see this as themselves? 809 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 4: And it's kind of like, oh, they just don't change. 810 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: Right, And that's why on this side, I'm like, maybe 811 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm crazy, maybe he's not, and I'm. 812 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 4: But then at the other side is yeah, hopefully you 813 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 4: see that as rightful. Yes, that she's seen two people right, change. 814 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: Right in all her years. Yeah, I know, that's that 815 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: was that was eye opening for sure.