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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Hi Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: Tensions are high in Minneapolis after thirty seven year old

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Speaker 2: Renee Nicol Good was shot and killed by an ICE

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Speaker 2: agent during the Trump Administration's latest and largest immigration crackdown.

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Speaker 2: Videos taken by bystanders with different vantage points show an

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Speaker 2: officer approaching an suv stopped across the middle of the road,

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Speaker 2: demanding the driver open the door and grabbing the handle.

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Speaker 2: The Honda pilot begins to move forward, and a different

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Speaker 2: ICE officer standing near the front of the vehicle pulls

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Speaker 2: his weapon and immediately fires at least two shots into

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Speaker 2: the suv at close range, jumping back as it moves

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Speaker 2: toward him. But there are dueling interpretations of the incident.

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Speaker 2: DHS Secretary Christine nom called it an act of domestic

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Speaker 2: terrorism and concluded that the ICE agent was acting in

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Speaker 2: self defense.

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Speaker 4: This vehicle was used to hit this officer, It was

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Speaker 4: used as a weapon, and the officers feels as though

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Speaker 4: his life was in jeopardy. It was used how to

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Speaker 4: perpetuate a violent act. That this officer took action to

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Speaker 4: protect himself and to protect his fellow law enforcement officers.

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Speaker 2: But Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frye says the video tells a

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Speaker 2: different story.

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Speaker 5: I myself saw a video of the shots being fired

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Speaker 5: as the car was driving away. What I can tell

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Speaker 5: you is the narrative that this was just done in

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Speaker 5: self defense is a garbage narrative that is not true.

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Speaker 1: It has no truth.

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Speaker 2: Joining me is former Manhattan prosecutor and criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 2: Paul Callan, who's of counsel at Edelman and Edelman. Paul,

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Speaker 2: let's start with the very basic question of can this

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Speaker 2: officer be prosecuted? Vice President J. D. Vince, who's an attorney, says,

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Speaker 2: the officer is protected by absolute immunity.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's no such thing as absolute immunity for federal

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Speaker 3: law enforcement officers. They can be prosecuted when they have

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Speaker 3: used excessive force that violate federal rules and regulations with

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Speaker 3: respect to the use of deadly physical force. So he's

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Speaker 3: dead wrong about that. Now, on the issue of federal immunity,

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Speaker 3: that's a more complex question. But I will tell you

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Speaker 3: that there have been numerous cases through the years of

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Speaker 3: federal law enforcement authorities being prosecuted on a state level

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Speaker 3: for the use of excessive force. The most famous one

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Speaker 3: was the Ruby Ridge case, which happened a while back.

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Speaker 3: But in that case, there was a federal sniper who

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Speaker 3: was assigned to try to take down the bad guys

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Speaker 3: in the Ruby Ridge case, and the claim was that

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Speaker 3: he used excessive force and killed somebody, and he was

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Speaker 3: prosecuted in a state court and it was upheld by

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Speaker 3: the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Now that case

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Speaker 3: was ultimately dismissed in the end, but not on federal

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Speaker 3: immunity grounds. So federal authorities, if they misused their right

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Speaker 3: to use excessive force, they can be prosecuted, just like

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Speaker 3: any human being can be prosecuted.

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Speaker 2: Are there separate rules for police and federal officers when

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Speaker 2: lethal force is used against someone in a moving vehicle?

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, in the sense that some states. New York's

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Speaker 3: a good example. In nineteen seventy two, New York enacted

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Speaker 3: a rule that police officers were not to fire at

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Speaker 3: moving vehicles for two reasons. Number one, bystanders could be

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Speaker 3: hit by the Gunfirenumber two, if they succeeded in killing

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Speaker 3: the driver, the car could crash into somebody else and

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Speaker 3: kill them. So it's a very very dangerous thing to

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Speaker 3: do so. That's been banned in New York at least

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Speaker 3: since nineteen seventy two. Now, other states have different rules

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Speaker 3: on this. The federal government, basically, according to the Department

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Speaker 3: of Justice manual, has a rule that they can only

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Speaker 3: use what is considered to be deadly force when there's

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Speaker 3: an imminent threat that the person they're shooting at would

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Speaker 3: use deadly force against federal law enforcement agents or others.

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Speaker 3: And that's how the Feds would look at this case

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Speaker 3: and judge it, if they were willing to step back

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Speaker 3: and judge it objectively, which that's a whole other subject.

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Speaker 3: There's no objectivity being brought to this investigation by federal

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Speaker 3: authorities from what I've been able to see.

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Speaker 2: Christy Nome, the Department of Homeland Security director, has already

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Speaker 2: for the past two days, said that the the woman

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Speaker 2: who was killed here was aiming at the officer, and

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Speaker 2: the officer was acting in self defense and according to

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Speaker 2: his training. And then you have state authorities saying, no,

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Speaker 2: that's not the case. In past situations, has the federal

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Speaker 2: government come out so strongly in presenting the narrative and

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Speaker 2: the defense of the officer before there's even an investigation.

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Speaker 3: No they have not, and as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 3: Christy Nooam's statements are really shockingly inappropriate. Normally, federal authorities

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Speaker 3: will make no statement, and this case would be looked

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Speaker 3: at by the US Attorney's office that has jurisdiction, and

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Speaker 3: there might be a presentation to a federal grand jury

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Speaker 3: if it was a close call or if it was

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Speaker 3: clearly misconduct unlawful activity by the law enforcement agent. But

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Speaker 3: they usually make no comment, no public comment, because who's

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Speaker 3: going to believe that an investigation has been fair and

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Speaker 3: impartial if all of the investigators have declared their opinion

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Speaker 3: on it before the investigation even begins. So this is

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Speaker 3: really improper and highly unprofessional behavior by Christy nol And

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Speaker 3: by the way, a person who said that is of

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Speaker 3: all people, Holman, who is called the Border Zar, who

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Speaker 3: makes a lot of television appearances defending everything that the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration is doing, and Thomas Homan has said that

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Speaker 3: it's completely inappropriate for law enforcement authorities to be making

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Speaker 3: definitive statements about whether this was a shooting that could

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Speaker 3: be justified or not.

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Speaker 2: Minnesota investigators say the federal government is blocking them from

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Speaker 2: accessing the evidence in the investigation. And the FBI won't

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Speaker 2: work with them on the probe. So where does that

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Speaker 2: leave the investigation in the hands of the federal government

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Speaker 2: that's already made a conclusion.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think it will leave the at least the

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Speaker 3: initial investigation with the federal government entirely. Now, I have

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Speaker 3: to say June that in situations that I've seen as

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Speaker 3: a state prosecutor and I prosecuted murder cases on a

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Speaker 3: state level, the FEDS will come in on cases that

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Speaker 3: have federal implications and pull the case from state authorities

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Speaker 3: and take the evidence to begin with. But in the end,

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Speaker 3: when they complete their investigation, the state is then free

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Speaker 3: to pursue the case. And there have been cases where

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Speaker 3: the Feds have decided not to proceed with charges and

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Speaker 3: state authorities have said, no, this was a case of

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Speaker 3: unjustifiable force and someone was killed who didn't deserve to die,

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Speaker 3: and state authorities proceed. That happens all the time, But

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Speaker 3: it's not unusual for the FEDS to take all the

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Speaker 3: evidence and say we're the only ones that are going

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Speaker 3: to look at it initially. So Minnesota will get there

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Speaker 3: their shot at this case. If the Feds don't decide

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Speaker 3: to proceed against the ice officer involved.

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Speaker 2: Here, you have videos and videos taken from various angles.

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Speaker 2: One would think that if there is a video, it'd

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Speaker 2: be pretty clear what happened.

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Speaker 6: But is it.

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Speaker 2: People seem to have different interpretations.

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Speaker 3: Well. Yes, and this video in particular is one where

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Speaker 3: people are disagreeing because if this thirty seven year old

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Speaker 3: mother of three was intending to kill an ice officer

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Speaker 3: by running him over, would she have turned the wheels

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Speaker 3: of her car to go to the right and avoid

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Speaker 3: hitting the officer. That's something I'd be looking at if

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Speaker 3: I were on the grand jury evaluating this case. The

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Speaker 3: other thing that's very troublesome about the video from my

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Speaker 3: standpoint is, even if the vehicle was initially going toward

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Speaker 3: the ice officer, it looked from the video like all

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Speaker 3: he had to do was step two feet to the right,

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Speaker 3: to his right and he would have been out of danger.

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Speaker 3: She had turned the wheels away from him as it was,

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Speaker 3: so it doesn't look to me like there was any

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Speaker 3: imminent threat to him at all when he fired that

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Speaker 3: deadly shot through the windshield of the car.

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Speaker 2: At trial, if this goes to trial, the jury's going

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Speaker 2: to be shown videos from different angles. It'll be slowed

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Speaker 2: down and stop, and there'll be different interpretations from each

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Speaker 2: side about what happened.

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Speaker 3: Well, and I think in front of jury's there's always

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Speaker 3: great sympathy for the law enforcement officials involved in these

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Speaker 3: situations because they're making a snap decision about whether it's

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Speaker 3: appropriate to fire a shot at someone who is presumably

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Speaker 3: committing a crime. So they're hesitant about convicting a law

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Speaker 3: enforcement officer under these circumstances. But here, first of all,

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Speaker 3: you're going to get if you get a Minnesota jury,

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Speaker 3: of Minneapolis jury, they don't seem to be people who

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Speaker 3: are going to be very sympathetic to these two federal

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Speaker 3: officers who have invaded Minneapolis. Now, there doesn't seem to

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Speaker 3: be a lot of sympathy for the federal government in Minnesota. Now,

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Speaker 3: remember that's going to be the jury in this case,

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Speaker 3: if it's brought in federal court or in state court.

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Speaker 2: Paul, the other thing I noticed while watching the video

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Speaker 2: over and over again is that the ice officers are

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Speaker 2: very aggressive. As they're approaching the car, they're already cursing. Also,

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Speaker 2: they're all masked up so that you can barely see

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Speaker 2: their faces, so it doesn't present what I call the

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Speaker 2: typical officer situation.

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Speaker 3: It's completely atypical, June. I mean, we're used to seeing

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Speaker 3: police officers dressed in a normal police uniform which displays

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Speaker 3: their badge number, and they don't have their faces covered

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Speaker 3: like they're some kind of a terrorist operating in the

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Speaker 3: Middle East, which when you see these ice raids, it's

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Speaker 3: a scene that's been never seen before in the United States,

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Speaker 3: with officers with their faces covered, raiding homes and firing

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Speaker 3: gunshots into vehicles. It's a very very strange and terrifying thing,

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Speaker 3: I think for American citizens to see. So that's what

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Speaker 3: this woman was confronted with when they were trying to

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Speaker 3: pull her out of her car. And I don't know

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Speaker 3: what her side of the story will be presented, as

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Speaker 3: obviously she's not here to testify about it. But whether

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Speaker 3: she deliberately came and was deliberately trying to obstruct this

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Speaker 3: investigation or not, we don't know all of the facts

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Speaker 3: at this point in time. But in the end, it

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Speaker 3: comes down to one thing. Did this officer have an

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Speaker 3: imminent threat of death being presented because this van was

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Speaker 3: going in his direction, and was that the only reasonable

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Speaker 3: thing that he could do under the circumstances fire a

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Speaker 3: shot through the window at this woman or could he

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Speaker 3: have merely stepped out of the way and avoid it

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Speaker 3: being killed himself. So that's what a jury will look at.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, Let's suppose that she was trying to avoid arrest

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Speaker 2: and trying to escape from arrest. Does it change the

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Speaker 2: situation at all or the analysis of what the ice

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Speaker 2: officer did in shooting well.

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Speaker 3: On a state and federal level, there is a doctrine

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Speaker 3: called the fleeing felon doctrine, which is if a felon

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Speaker 3: who has committed a violent crime or is trying to

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Speaker 3: commit a violent crime of some sort is fleeing the scene,

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Speaker 3: generally deadly physical force can be used in that person's apprehension.

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Speaker 3: But that doctrine has been narrowed down by the courts

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Speaker 3: through the years in recent years and it's gotten to

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Speaker 3: the point where in most states you're not allowed to

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Speaker 3: use that level of force just because of felon is

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Speaker 3: fleeing the scene. You have to show that that felon

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Speaker 3: actively presents a threat, an imminent threat of death or

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Speaker 3: serious injury to other people, and that applied to this

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Speaker 3: fact pattern, you would have to say did she present

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Speaker 3: an imminent threat of death or injury to members of

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Speaker 3: the public or to this ice officer as she was

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Speaker 3: driving her car away from the scene, and from the

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Speaker 3: video I've seen, I don't think it makes out that standard.

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Speaker 3: But as we discussed earlier, there will be many angles

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Speaker 3: of this video maybe that we haven't seen yet. There's

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Speaker 3: the other information that we don't know about yet, which

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Speaker 3: is why it's totally wrong for Christy Nolan and the

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Speaker 3: Vice president and everybody else to have reached a definitive

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Speaker 3: opinion about guilt or innocence of this ice officer. We've

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Speaker 3: got to wait until all the evidence is in before

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Speaker 3: we can make a determination about that.

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Speaker 2: In any event, I mean, will her family be able

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Speaker 2: to sue in civil court for damages?

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Speaker 3: Well, they will be able to sue, there's no question

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Speaker 3: about that. But I have to say that those cases

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Speaker 3: are very, very difficult cases to win INFEC court. The

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Speaker 3: federal judges are very sympathetic to federal law enforcement authorities,

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Speaker 3: and there are a number of rules in place in

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Speaker 3: federal law granting tremendous protection to federal law enforcement authorities.

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Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, it's if they violate the

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Speaker 3: Constitution in the performance of their duties as law enforcement officers.

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Speaker 3: That's not even enough to hold them liable. You have

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Speaker 3: to prove that not only do they violate the Constitution,

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Speaker 3: but that other officers wouldn't have known about the constitutional

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Speaker 3: protection involved, and that only then maybe you would have

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Speaker 3: a case for liability and money damages in federal court.

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Speaker 3: Most of these cases are thrown out and people recover

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Speaker 3: no money in federal court, so they're very, very difficult

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Speaker 3: cases to win.

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Speaker 2: It does sound like a really high bar. It's been

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Speaker 2: great talking to you again, Paul, thanks so much for

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Speaker 2: joining me. That's former Manhattan prosecutor and criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 2: Paul Callan. Vice president J. D. Vance called the Minneapolis

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Speaker 2: woman who was shot to death by an ICE agent

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Speaker 2: a deranged member of a large left wing protest network.

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Speaker 2: Without any evidence, and Vance declared with certainty that the

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Speaker 2: mother of three tried to ram the officer with her

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Speaker 2: SUV and that the officer acted in self defense by

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Speaker 2: opening fire on her.

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Speaker 7: What you see is what you get in this case.

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Speaker 7: You have a woman who is trying to obstruct a

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Speaker 7: legitimate law enforcement operation. Nobody debates that you have a

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Speaker 7: woman who aimed her car at a law enforcement officer

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Speaker 7: and pressed on the accelerator. Nobody debates that I can

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Speaker 7: believe that her death is a tragedy, while also recognizing

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Speaker 7: that it's a tragedy of her own making.

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Speaker 2: But eyewitness accounts video of the incident captured by protesters

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Speaker 2: and city officials dispute those claims by Vance, and Minnesota

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Speaker 2: Governor Tim Wall says he's skeptical that the federal and

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Speaker 2: investigation into the shooting will be fair since the FBI

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Speaker 2: has barred the state's independent investigative body from seeing the

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Speaker 2: evidence or participating in the investigation.

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Speaker 8: From the President to the Vice president to Christy nom

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Speaker 8: have stood and told you things that are verifiably false,

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Speaker 8: verifiably inaccurate. They have determined the character of a thirty

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Speaker 8: seven year old mom that they didn't even know don't know.

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Speaker 2: And John Sandweg, the former acting ICE director under President Obama,

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Speaker 2: says the videos raised troubling questions about the officer's actions.

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Speaker 1: I think it's been irresponsible to the department's position on this.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why the secretary and the department leadership

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Speaker 1: brushed out with conclusions that this was a justifiable shooting.

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Speaker 1: I think that it, especially when you look at these videos,

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Speaker 1: and I think if the regular public looks at this

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Speaker 1: as we've seen, the regular public has serious concerns with it.

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Speaker 2: Joining me NATA look at the broader implications of this shooting.

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Speaker 2: Is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a partner at Honden Knight.

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Speaker 2: Leon the shooting of the Minneapolis woman was not an

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Speaker 2: isolated incident. Ice officers have fired on at least nine

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Speaker 2: other people in similar circumstances who were in their vehicles

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Speaker 2: in the last year of these stepped up immigration actions,

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Speaker 2: and yet the administration and the Department of Homeland Security

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Speaker 2: are doubling down today.

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Speaker 9: I want to be careful saying too much here because

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Speaker 9: I think it's a lot of people are engaging in

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Speaker 9: a lot of commentary without really getting to the actual

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Speaker 9: facts of everything that led to this. And quite frankly,

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Speaker 9: there are a lot of facts of a lot of

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Speaker 9: different situations that all culminated in what happened in Minnesota,

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Speaker 9: Which is, if you're looking at this from one side

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Speaker 9: of the perspective, you have a lot of foreign nationals

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Speaker 9: in Minnesota being investigated for various fraud out allegations against

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Speaker 9: the taxpayers of both Minnesota and of the United States,

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Speaker 9: and so the idea was that there needed to be

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Speaker 9: a surge of resources to engage in that fraud. Then

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Speaker 9: you could say a counter argument, well, but a lot

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Speaker 9: of the people that were there doing this kind of

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Speaker 9: law enforcement work for the Department of Homeland Security ended

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Speaker 9: up arresting people who were not involved in any of

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Speaker 9: those operations. And they're just saying if they were picking

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Speaker 9: up people who were just part of the normal immigration

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Speaker 9: and customs enforcement menu of people that they would normally

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Speaker 9: pick up who are undocumented and that weren't involved in

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Speaker 9: these either daycare or other types of fraud actions that

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Speaker 9: people are interested in in the news and.

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Speaker 6: That are investigating.

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Speaker 9: Then on the other side, you would say, meantime, there

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Speaker 9: are efforts in big cities to stifle the activities of ICE,

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Speaker 9: whether they be the implementation of sanctuary cities or individual

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Speaker 9: testers taking matters into their own hands. And on the

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Speaker 9: other side, you could say there's agents from the federal

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Speaker 9: government engaging in law enforcement operations that aren't the traditional detention,

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Speaker 9: removal and otherwise immigration prosecutions that have to do with

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Speaker 9: removing someone from the United States. When they start engaging

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Speaker 9: in actions that would normally be conducted by local police

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Speaker 9: in terms of traffic or other things of this nature.

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Speaker 6: Then you have that issue.

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Speaker 9: So all of these things come into play in the

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Speaker 9: culmination of this one event where you have surges of

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Speaker 9: thousands of agents in Minnesota with people who are opposed

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Speaker 9: to that, with all of the heightened rhetoric on all

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Speaker 9: of the sides of this. This is something we've talked

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Speaker 9: about in the past about perhaps a need for more

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Speaker 9: solemnity in the manner in which immigration law enforcement is occurring.

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Speaker 9: So there isn't this belief that the immigration law enforcement

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Speaker 9: is meant to be overtly purposefully hostile, but rather it's

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Speaker 9: being done out of a solemn obligation to make sure

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Speaker 9: that the immigration code has a meaning. I think it

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Speaker 9: would be a very helpful change in tone for the

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Speaker 9: immigration enforcement people to say, look, we have an eight

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Speaker 9: hundred page book called the Immigration and Nationality Act, and

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Speaker 9: four hundred pages are all the laws about how you

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Speaker 9: get here legally, and four hundred pages are the laws

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Speaker 9: about what happens if you break the law. And what's

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Speaker 9: the point of having those first four hundred pages that

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Speaker 9: tell you that you have to do X, Y Z things?

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Speaker 9: In order to get in the country if we don't

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Speaker 9: enforce the second four hundred pages, because then there's no

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Speaker 9: law and just come in for whatever reason you want

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Speaker 9: and do anything you want while you're here. So the

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Speaker 9: point is there are good arguments to make, but they

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Speaker 9: need to be made, perhaps in a more solemn manner.

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Speaker 9: And then at the same token, as people intend to

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Speaker 9: obstruct or otherwise bifle immigration enforcement, they then have less

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Speaker 9: of a justification for doing so, and their actions can

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Speaker 9: be more targeted towards saying, look, how irrational these people

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Speaker 9: are that don't want us to enforce immigration law at all,

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Speaker 9: as opposed to in a certain manner that might be

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Speaker 9: viewed as particularly hostile. And that's all the kinds of

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Speaker 9: temperature that needs to be lowered. And then here it's

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Speaker 9: just going to come down to it at the end

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Speaker 9: of the day, because there's obviously going to be a

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Speaker 9: state attempt to prosecute this person. The federal government is

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Speaker 9: going to say that this person has immunity, and the

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Speaker 9: legal test is going to be whether the person acted

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Speaker 9: in an objectively unreasonable or clearly unlawful manner under the

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Speaker 9: federal use of force standards. And this is going to

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Speaker 9: come down to a lot of things. Even the video angles.

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Speaker 9: Depending on what angle you look at, you might have

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Speaker 9: a different take. Depending on whether you're talking about the

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Speaker 9: first gunshot or subsequent gunshots, you might have a different take.

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Speaker 9: We may find out that the communication that was held

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Speaker 9: between the driver and the ICE agents added an extra

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Speaker 9: context to this. So there are so many things that

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Speaker 9: you have to look at this that for anyone to

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Speaker 9: rush to judgment on one day, two days, even a

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Speaker 9: week after this without having all of the information in place.

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Speaker 9: Why was there so many ICE agents there? Why was

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Speaker 9: there this stuff? Why was there the need to do

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Speaker 9: any of this when none of this had to do

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Speaker 9: with immigration detention, enforcement and removal? But is there a

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Speaker 9: need to do it because there was an operation that

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Speaker 9: was actively happening that was being obstructed by this person?

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Speaker 9: What did this person say to the ICE agents? All

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Speaker 9: of this needs to be figured out before anybody can

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Speaker 9: make a reasonable assessment as to who.

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Speaker 6: Did what and were their good judgment calls are bad

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Speaker 6: judgment calls.

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Speaker 9: So I'm going to reserve my final opinion on this

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Speaker 9: until all of those facts are obtained. But the only

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Speaker 9: opinion I would give is I wish everyone else do

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Speaker 9: that as well.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next, we'll turn to the situation of Venezuelan

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Speaker 2: undocumented migrants. You're listening to Bloomberg. The about six hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand Venezuelans who fled instability at home are at risk

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Speaker 2: of deportation by the Trump administration because the government has

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Speaker 2: ended their Temporary Protected Status and humanitarian parole. Homeland Security

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Speaker 2: Secretary Christine Nomes said on Sunday that Venezuelans in the

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Speaker 2: US who were previously under TPS status can apply for asylum.

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Speaker 2: I've been talking immigration law expertly on Fresco of Honda Night. Quote,

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Speaker 2: every individual that was under TPS has the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: apply for refugee status and that evaluation will go forward.

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Speaker 2: Is this something new or they opening up asylum already.

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Speaker 9: Basically, which was that every Venezuelan who lost their Temporary

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Speaker 9: Protective status wants to remain here and not be a

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Speaker 9: documented would have been given advice by their immigration attorney.

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Speaker 6: Look, if you actually do fear.

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Speaker 9: Persecution in Venezuela, you should apply for asylum.

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Speaker 6: So many of.

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Speaker 9: Them did, and so many of the Venezuelans who had

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Speaker 9: Temporary Protective status now currently have an asylum application pending

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Speaker 9: that would need to be adjudicated in order to deport them. Now,

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Speaker 9: this is going to lead to quite the conundrum legally,

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Speaker 9: because I do think there will be people in the

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Speaker 9: administration who will want to make the argument at some point,

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Speaker 9: and the question will be when, hey, Venezuela is now

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Speaker 9: a stable, wonderful place. So all of these asylum cases,

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Speaker 9: whether it's five hundred thousand, seven hundred thousand, a million,

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Speaker 9: I'm unclear exactly how many are pending from Venezuela. Let's

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Speaker 9: say there's a million of them pending from Venezuela. They

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Speaker 9: will want to say, just dismiss them all en mass

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Speaker 9: and don't have any asylum cases pending from Venezuela anymore.

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Speaker 9: Because we have a new government that's given us diplomatic

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Speaker 9: assurances that every person that we deport to Venezuela will

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Speaker 9: not be persecuted.

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Speaker 6: So they'll try to get some sort.

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Speaker 9: Of mass dismissal like that, and then you'll have obviously

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Speaker 9: people litigating, both individually and as a class, that that

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Speaker 9: shouldn't be done.

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Speaker 6: But then at the same.

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Speaker 9: Time you have this we've talked about this before, this

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Speaker 9: famous Alien Enemies Act litigation where the government has tried

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Speaker 9: to say that certain people from Venezuela don't get any

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Speaker 9: due process because the government is our enemy and they're

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Speaker 9: in an act of war, and so they'll have to

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Speaker 9: decide do they want to keep that going, because if

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Speaker 9: they do, then the government is our enemy. They're not

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Speaker 9: someone who is safe and you can go there and

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Speaker 9: nothing bad is going to happen to you. So you're

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Speaker 9: not going to be able to balance both of those

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Speaker 9: balls at the same time that Venezuela is a hostile

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Speaker 9: enemy force that requires the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act,

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Speaker 9: but also at the same time, nobody should be able

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Speaker 9: to get asylum from this hostile governmental force.

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Speaker 6: So there's a lot of decisions that.

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Speaker 9: The government's gonna have to make, and they're gonna have

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Speaker 9: to make them within the context of what's actually going

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Speaker 9: on in Venezuela. And I mean, I'm not there, but

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Speaker 9: I read the articles that talk about that there are

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Speaker 9: roving gangs and police that are going and asking people

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Speaker 9: for their phones and seeing if they supported the US,

441
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 9: and if.

442
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 6: They do, they're getting in trouble.

443
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 9: And so all of those kinds of things would seem

444
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 9: like things you would want to be able to say

445
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 9: in an asylum case, not a reason to dismiss an

446
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 9: asylum case. So we're gonna have to see how these

447
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 9: events play out and what the administration wants to do

448
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 9: with regard to these individuals in Venezuela.

449
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: I thought that the administration paused asylum decisions in November.

450
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 9: This is another issue completely. That is a very excellent point,

451
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 9: which is that if you're from Venezuela now or from

452
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 9: thirty nine other countries, not only is there the issue

453
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 9: of whether you can or can't get asylum or anything else,

454
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 9: but literally all immigration decisions period, whether you're applying for asylum,

455
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 9: whether you're applying for the Trump Gold Card, whether you're

456
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 9: applying for the EB five program, whether you marry a

457
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 9: US citizen, all of those cases are currently paused right now,

458
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 9: and I'm sure there will be litigation coming up soon

459
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 9: saying that that violates certain statutes related to non discrimination

460
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 9: by country with regard to the allocation of green cards

461
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 9: and also do process claims. I'm sure all of those

462
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 9: litigations are being ready to be filed both again individually

463
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 9: and on a class basis in certain locations. But until

464
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 9: those litigations get filed. At the moment, all of those

465
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 9: cases are on pause. So all you can do is

466
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 9: file these things, and unless people actually want to make

467
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 9: decisions on these cases, then everything's just paused and we're

468
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 9: in a state of flux.

469
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 6: And so that is a very fair point that you

470
00:27:59,520 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 6: bring up.

471
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: So now let's turn to this presidential proclamation. So the

472
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 2: White House revealed it's more than doubling travel restrictions.

473
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 9: So if you recall, there was an initial list of

474
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 9: banned countries, and that had to do with again, there

475
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 9: was the first Trump administration's list of banned countries. That

476
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 9: list was taken away by the Biden administration. The Trump

477
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 9: administration gets elected again, it has its first list of

478
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 9: banned countries. It's nineteen countries, and people thought that would

479
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 9: be the end of it. There was some number of

480
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 9: countries that were fully banned, and others that were partially

481
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 9: banned were only non work visas meaning student visas or

482
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 9: exchange visas or visitor visas. That's what's called a partial ban.

483
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 9: Those there were countries that were partially banned. Then after

484
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 9: this shooting that happened in DC where an Afghan person

485
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 9: who came to the United States, you would call them

486
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 9: a refugee I suppose who came to the United States

487
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 9: and then murdered a National guardsman. After that event, then

488
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 9: there was a discussion about, let's revisit this list, Let's

489
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 9: see if there's more countries we should add. And so

490
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 9: now as a result of that revisiting, there's thirty nine

491
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 9: countries on this list of full ban or partial ban,

492
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 9: and some of the you know, most of the countries

493
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 9: are in Africa and the Middle East. There is some

494
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 9: Caribbean countries hate e Venezuela, Cuba. But so there's two

495
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 9: bands in place. One there's a ban on people coming

496
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 9: into the United States. But second then USCIS as we

497
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 9: just discussed as a separate ban that says, if you're

498
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 9: here and you're seeking to either change your status or

499
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 9: get a green card, or do an extension of your stay,

500
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 9: whatever you're trying to do, we're just going to take

501
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 9: your application and hold it in a byance until some

502
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 9: other announcement comes out later about whether we can vet

503
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 9: you or how we can vet you, or something else.

504
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 9: And I do think, like I said, that's going to

505
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 9: be subject to litigation because this sort of indefinite abeyance

506
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 9: of applications, especially when you're collecting fees under the premise

507
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 9: that those fees are being paid by people so that

508
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 9: they would get an adjudication of their application. It's gonna

509
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 9: be challenging for the government to just permanently stick these

510
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 9: cases in a drawer and not do anything with them.

511
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 9: So they're gonna have to express some plan of what

512
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 9: it is they're gonna do. How long that's gonna take

513
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 9: before they start readjudicating these cases, but they're gonna have

514
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 9: to do it at some point. And I think one

515
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 9: of the interesting things to watch out for, not that

516
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 9: this is the most important thing, but it is sort

517
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 9: of symbolic of a lot of what goes on is

518
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,239
Speaker 9: you have this administration saying this is gonna be the

519
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 9: best World Cup ever. We're gonna have the most attendance,

520
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 9: We're gonna make the most money. The world is gonna

521
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 9: think this is the greatest thing ever. And I think

522
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 9: there's about five or six countries who are participating in

523
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 9: the World Cup where their fans are banned from coming

524
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 9: into the United States. And I'm not just talking about

525
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 9: a place like Iran, but I'm talking about Ivory Coast

526
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 9: and other places like that.

527
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 6: Where it's you know, we don't usually.

528
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 9: Have dangerous terrorists coming from the Ivory Coast, and so

529
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 9: they're gonna have to be a decision about, hey, will

530
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 9: fans from these countries be allowed to come in to

531
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 9: the United States or will there really be no fans

532
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 9: from any of these countries allowed to come into the

533
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 9: United States to watch the World Cup. So it's mostly

534
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 9: all the African countries that qualify will not be able

535
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 9: to have their folks come in and watch the World Cup.

536
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 9: So we're gonna have to wait and see on that.

537
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 9: But I do think that'll be another interesting thing to monitor.

538
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: So we talked before about the H one B visa.

539
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: Where where does that process stand.

540
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 9: Well, there's two different developments in the H one B

541
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 9: visa world. One was, well, there was a proclamation under

542
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 9: the same Travel Band authority that said that if you

543
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 9: were outside the United States coming up for the new

544
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 9: visa lottery that's gonna come up in twenty twenty six,

545
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 9: you want a visa to enter the United States. So

546
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 9: you're not here current, you're outside and you want one,

547
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 9: You're gonna have to pay one hundred thousand dollars in

548
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 9: order to get that visa.

549
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 6: There was a lawsuit.

550
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 9: Many people thought that was going to be successful, but

551
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 9: it turns out that lawsuit has not been successful.

552
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 6: And the district Court.

553
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 9: Said, and this was a judge who's known as liberal

554
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 9: on many issues, she said that the travel band Authority

555
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 9: is appropriately invoked here and that that one hundred thousand

556
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 9: dollars fee can move forward. So now that's offen appeal

557
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 9: in the DC circuit. We'll see what they want to do.

558
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 9: But that was a very tough blow for a lot

559
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 9: of these It was the Chamber of Commerce who sued,

560
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 9: who thought they were going to win pretty easily here.

561
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 9: And I had told people from the beginning I thought

562
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 9: this would be a lot more challenging for the people

563
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 9: suing than they realized.

564
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 6: I always thought this would be a fifty.

565
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 9: To fifty ks and they lost in the district court.

566
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 9: So when the new visa lottery happens in March and

567
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 9: those visa start getting allocated, if nothing changes, then if

568
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 9: you're here in America, you don't have to pay that fee.

569
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 9: But if if you're someone working in India or Brazil

570
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 9: or wherever, and they want to bring you in on

571
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 9: an H one B visa, that's going to cost one

572
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 9: hundred thousand dollars.

573
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 6: So that's the first one.

574
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 9: The second one is a regulation that's going to be

575
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 9: challenged but hasn't been challenged yet, that just got finalized.

576
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 9: That said that when we do the lottery for the

577
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 9: eighty five thousand, h one b VISA slots that exists,

578
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 9: and that lottery happens in March, we're no longer going

579
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 9: to do a blind lottery where each human being gets

580
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 9: one lottery ball. We're going to change it, and we're

581
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 9: going to say that if that company that petitioning for

582
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 9: you intends to pay you at the top twenty five

583
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 9: percent level of all people who get paid in the

584
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 9: United States to do that job, then you will get

585
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 9: four balls in the lottery. If you're in the twenty

586
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 9: fifth to fiftieth percentile, you'll get three balls in that lottery.

587
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 6: If you're in.

588
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 9: The fiftieth to seventy fifth percentile, you'll get two balls

589
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 9: in that lottery. And if you're in the seventy fifth

590
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 9: to one hundred percent time, meaning you're the lowest quadrant

591
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 9: of pay, you'll only get one ball. So some people

592
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 9: will have a four time greater chance of winning the

593
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 9: lottery than other people depending on how much they get paid,

594
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 9: with the idea that the lottery slot should be allocated

595
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 9: to the companies that pay the most, because the idea

596
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 9: is that those are conceivably the people adding the highest

597
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 9: economic value to the United States. This has been a

598
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 9: bipartisan type of thing where those kinds of solutions had

599
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 9: been proposed in the Congress. Many people thought that the

600
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 9: Congress would have to be the one who would do this,

601
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 9: that this can't be done by regulation. We're going to

602
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 9: have to see what the courts say about it, because

603
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 9: this wasn't done visa via travel band thing like the

604
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 9: one hundred thousand fee. This was just done based on

605
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,479
Speaker 9: the normal ability to regulate non immigrant visas. So from

606
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 9: that standpoint, we're going to have to see what the

607
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 9: courts say. And this is going to have to get

608
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 9: resolved before the lottery happens in March, so we'll see

609
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 9: what they say.

610
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: The immigration laws don't seem to get any less implicated

611
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: over time. Thanks so much as always, Leon, that's Leon

612
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: Fresco of hollanden Knight, and that's it for this edition

613
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get

614
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcasts. You

615
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www

616
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast, slash Law, and remember

617
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at

618
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and you're

619
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 2: listening to Bloomberg