1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: I haven't memorized the various trillion dollar plans the Biden 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: administration is putting out because the names don't fit with 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: what they are, So I haven't. They haven't stuck in 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: my head like I'd be able to remember the I 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: don't know, the give kids bicycles plans, if all the 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: money was going to give kids bicycles. But we're we're 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: calling things, you know, the make sure everyone has comfortable 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: shoes plan, and then we're using it to build dams. 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's everything is so confusing. By 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: a thousand ahead of YAK, it has nothing to do 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: with it, which is why I refuse to use the 12 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: phony names, because they're they're propaganda. To me, they're they're 13 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: evil pr But to discuss that in other topics, please 14 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: welcome Lani Chen David and Diane Stephy, fellow in American 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: Public Policy Studies at the Hoover Institution. The Director of 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Domestic Policy Studies at Stanford University, Lonie. How are you, sir? Hey, 17 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: I'm doing fine, great booth you guys again, thank you, 18 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: thank you kindly. So we have been talking about this 19 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: enormous kids that is allegedly something to do with infrastructure, 20 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: but indeed reorders, American society and economics and the rest 21 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: of it. And we've been reading from the Wall Street Journal. 22 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: I don't know how many op eds they had this 23 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: week about how, Hey America, Hello, I don't know if 24 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: you're payingny intention. We're about to change the country drastically, 25 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: like really change the way we operate forever. Hello. So 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: what's your thoughts? What are your thoughts on how much 27 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: of this is likely to pass, how difficult it's going 28 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: to be to get it through. Where do you think 29 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: we might end up? Well, I, first of all, I 30 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: think Democrats will have the opportunity to pass essentially a 31 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: good chunk of what they want to because they're going 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: to use this process called budget reconciliation, which basically allows 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: them to uh to pass things that are related to 34 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: spending or to the collection of revenue with a simple 35 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: majority vote, which they have. And recall, they've already used 36 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: this once to pass that massive spending package, which to 37 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: you at this point was kind of masquerading as a 38 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: COVID night relief bill. You know, I think the challenge 39 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: with all of these things is that there is the 40 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: germ of some kind of bipartisan consensus in all of 41 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: these bills. Right, you talk about the COVID nineteen relief 42 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: as an example what they could have done. What Biden 43 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 1: Todenta said, Look, we're gonna do a much smaller package, 44 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: somewhere around a hundred and sixty billion instead of two trillion. 45 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna focus it on getting vaccines out there, 46 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: making sure schools have what they need to make changes 47 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: so that they're ready for the fall, YadA, YadA, you know, 48 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: all the things that people could have agreed on in 49 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: the same way. With infrastructure, instead of going for two 50 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: trillion dollars, they could have said, let's do a you know, 51 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: even six hundred billion dollar package, which is a ton 52 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: of money already that's focused on things like roads and 53 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: bridges and airports and physical infrastructure, even water infrastructure, which 54 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: some say, I don't know if it falls in there. Look, 55 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: I think a lot of Republicans would have been totally fine. Thing. Yet, 56 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: let's improve the way that we get water to two 57 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: more of the American people. They would have been willing 58 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: to spend six billion dollars to do it. So in 59 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: each of these cases, there was the germ of something. 60 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: But instead of trying to work together, what you see 61 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: is just an effort to go big every single time. Uh. 62 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: And at some point, you know, people grow immune to 63 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: the fact that we are spending you know, six trillion 64 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: dollars over the course of like eight months, and and 65 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: and and people are just immune to it. They just 66 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: don't It doesn't register with them anymore. But that is 67 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: an awful lot of money. Right. What I was driving 68 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: at was, I've heard that they're a handful of moderate 69 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: Democrats who are really uneasy with this a wild I mean, 70 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: like coke binge spending. Well, they might be, they might 71 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: be uneasy with it. And I take you know, Joe 72 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: Mansion of West Virginia is a good example. He's a 73 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: he's a very moderate Democrat, probably in a different life, 74 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: could have been a Republican. And and he said, look, 75 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm not comfortable spending all this money. I'm not necessarily 76 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: comfortable doing this. But you know, Joe mantions a good 77 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: example of somebody who at the end of the day 78 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: is a pragmatist. And if he ends up with some 79 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,279 Speaker 1: significant boondoggle for the state of West Virginia, which he represents, 80 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: he's gonna be perfectly fine voting for two trillion dollars 81 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: and spending. The same goes for Senator Cinema from Arizona, 82 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: who's another one that people say, oh, well she's a moderate. Yeah, 83 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: you know, look, they're moderates until it comes down to 84 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: the question of what are you going to give me 85 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: in return from my vote? And believe me, Chuck Schumer, 86 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: Joe Biden, they're gonna get very creative. They're gonna make 87 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: sure Arizona and West Virginia come out of this looking 88 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: very very nice. And it's gonna give Cinema and Mansion 89 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: permission to vote for these big packages. That is the reality. 90 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: They can cloak their language in in in this sort 91 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: of notion of you know, hey, we really need by 92 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: partisanship and what we actually need is fiscal responsibility that 93 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: or you know, horse manure. At the end of the day, 94 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: what they really care about is what am I going 95 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: to get for my state? And well, if I'm cursed 96 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: in Cinema, you know what I'm asking for. I'm asking 97 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: for Lake Michigan. I'm gonna say Illinois, Wisconsin aren't doing 98 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: much with it. Arizona needs water. I want Lake Michigan. 99 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: I'll settle for Lake Erie, but I want Michigan. You're 100 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: you're on a bunch of these shows with other Pundit's 101 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: some of the punditry. Punditry that's coming from the conservative 102 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: pundits is driving me freaking nuts because I'm so tired 103 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: of hearing about Well, I'll tell you what, a lot 104 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: of voters are gonna like this, and it really ups 105 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: the chances for the Republicans to take back the House 106 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: because they're stepping on sometimes. And that's sort of a 107 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: view of back and forth. Every two years, Hey, we 108 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: won the House back. Who cares if Joe Biden is 109 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: able to transform the nation in one two year period 110 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: in a way that you know, none of these entitlements 111 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: will go away. If you could give me the reverse, 112 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: if if the Republicans could have a two year win 113 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: where Okay, we shrink the size of government, we reform entitlements, 114 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: we secure the border, you know, whatever my wish list is. 115 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: And you say, but you'll lose the House after you 116 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: do this, I'd say, freaking where do I sign? Well, 117 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: you may recall we we You know, Republicans had that 118 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: opportunity back in seventeen. They had control of basically the House, 119 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: the Senate, and the White House, and they had an 120 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to effectuate some of these changes. And you know, 121 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: they did tax reform, which which I thought was good, 122 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: but they didn't really move ahead with anything else, right, 123 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: And they had an opportunity to shrink the size of government. 124 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: They had an opportunity to uh to to look carefully 125 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: at what they were doing, and unfortunately that wasn't what 126 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: came out of it. And I think that's why voters 127 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: now are so skeptical. They just sort of say, a 128 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: pox on both their houses, because you know, what's pretty 129 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: clear is when each side, you know, has what they have, 130 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: they try and do various things. Sometimes they get there, 131 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: sometimes they don't. But the reality is we are in 132 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: the cycle of politics now where we are destined, I think, 133 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: to swerve from one policy prescription or set of prescriptions 134 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: to another, and those changes can be quite violent. Not 135 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: not in terms of like you know, people people picking 136 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: up pitchforks, I just mean the change going from one 137 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: side of the other can be so dramatic and so 138 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: violent because that's just what we that's the period of 139 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: time we're in right now, and to me, that's not 140 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: a great way to make policy. No, it's not. But 141 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: I need to point out that generally speaking, Republican policies, 142 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: a violent swing to the right can be undone very 143 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: quickly and easily by the left, whereas the left will 144 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: institute you know, programs and and handouts and yeah that 145 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: that they are almost impossible to undo without incurring the 146 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: rage of the voter. Lani Chan of the Hoover Institution 147 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: Stanford University is on the line, Um, what the heck 148 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: had just flitted right out of my mind? I had 149 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: something very important. Oh, just long and short of it 150 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: is the United States just plunging toward becoming France with 151 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: two oceans. Journal has been saying, oh wait, well, it 152 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,559 Speaker 1: is the case that if you build a an entitlement state, 153 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: if you build a sort of state of support that 154 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: is large enough. I mean, you guys write a good point, 155 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: which is that you know, folks get used to it, 156 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: and and people's sort of vision of it changes fundamentally, 157 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: and things that were not acceptable before become acceptable. And 158 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 1: particularly when you're talking about creating a broader and broader 159 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: social safety that I mean, I keep coming back to 160 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: the concept of extended unemployment insurance during the pandemic or 161 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: during the period of the pandemic when the economy was down, 162 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: you totally understood why it was important. We've seen the 163 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 1: economy coming back very very strong. Growth rates are very 164 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: very good right now, their jobs being created, things are 165 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: coming back in most parts of the country. And we 166 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: hear over and over again that what some of these 167 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: programs have created, frankly is they disincentive to return to work. 168 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: And that is a good example of a situation where 169 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: American society becomes closer and closer to a kind of 170 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: society and state they have in Europe in many parts 171 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: of Europe where there are frankly disincentives to work, and 172 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: then culturally you get a situation where, you know, like 173 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: if you look at Europe, a lot of countries they're 174 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: frankly or less productive because you know, they take three 175 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: hours off in the middle of the day and they 176 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: take three months off in the summer. And you know, 177 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: some would say, hey, that's that's how It's kind of nice, 178 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: but that's not how you create a society where, uh, 179 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: you know, you have productivity and growth and innovation. All 180 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: the amazing things we've seen in America come because we 181 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,599 Speaker 1: have an industrious society that values work fundamentally, and I 182 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: fear that we're moving away from that A little bit 183 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: and a question. I was going to ask about the 184 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: whole Liz Cheney Trump thing, but I lost interest, lost 185 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: interest in my own head. She's gonna get booted out 186 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: any chance. Trump injects himself into the mid terms in 187 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: such a way that, you know what happened in Georgia. 188 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: Happens you turn off enough people that you lose something 189 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: you should have won. Yeah, I you know, I don't 190 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: know what his plans are, what his role will be. 191 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: I do know this that the midterm elections are actually 192 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: right around the corner, believe it or not, and it 193 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: is extremely important for Republicans. I've always argued this. I 194 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: think Republicans have to focus on putting forth a vision 195 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: of what are the two or three things you're going 196 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: to do if you take back the House. It is 197 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: enough to sort of argue. It is not enough to argue, 198 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, hey, what the Democrats are doing is bad. 199 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: They're expanding government. We don't like that. You know, as 200 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: as true as that argument might be, if you're unable 201 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: to come forward with, hey, here are the things we're 202 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: going to do to make things better. It's hard. I 203 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: think people want an alternative vision to vote for, so 204 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: so I hope that that's what the folks. But you can't. 205 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: You can't run on unspending seven trillion dollars. Unfortunately, once 206 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: it's spent, it's spent. And if they say we're going 207 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: to repeal and replace Obamacare, I'm moving to Paraguay or Uruguay, 208 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: I can never remember which one. Lanah Chen of the 209 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: Hooever Institution, Stanford University, Lana, he thanks so much for 210 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: the insight. Great to talk to you and have a 211 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: great weekend. Thanks you, guys. I just I just don't 212 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: feel like people are grasping what's happening here. You Okay, Yeah, 213 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: we won, we won the House. Who we're gonna do this? 214 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: Things are changed forever. They're never coming back. Yeah, they'll 215 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: never go back to the way they were. Seven trillion dollars. 216 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: Once it's committed to being spent, will be spent. It 217 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: will be out the door. We'll have to reckon with 218 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: that no matter what. Are