1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 2: How can I return him to day eulat states, I 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: could I smuggle him into the United States or whether 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: I do, of course, I'm not gonna do it. 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 3: It's like let meet. The question is for busterous, how 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 3: can I smuggel the terrorist into the United States. 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 4: I don't have the power to return him to the 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 4: United States. 9 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: So you can release the inside of Alabas. 10 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, but I'm not releasing I mean, we're not very 11 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 5: fond of releasing terrorists into our country. 12 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 6: The President of L Salvador, Naibu Kelly, said in the 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 6: Oval office today that he would not return a man 14 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 6: who was wrongfully deported to his country. This was backed 15 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 6: up by US Attorney General Pam Bondi's seemingly incorrect interpretation 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 6: of the Supreme Courts ordered that the Trump administration facilitate 17 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 6: Kilmar Abrego Garcia is released from custody in L Salvador. 18 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 3: That's up to El Salvador if they want to return him. 19 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 3: That's not to us. The Supreme Court rule President that 20 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: if as El Salvador wants to return him, this is 21 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 3: international matters, foreign affairs. If they wanted to return him, 22 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 3: we would facilitate it, meaning provide a plane. 23 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 6: And Secretary of State Marco Rubio basically said, there's nothing 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 6: to see here, even though the issues in the case 25 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 6: have been litigated all the way up to the Supreme 26 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 6: Court and are now back before a federal judge for 27 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 6: another hearing tomorrow. 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 5: I don't understand what the confusion is. This individual is 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 5: a citizen of Olsavador. He was illegally in the United 30 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 5: States and was returned to his country. That's where you 31 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 5: deport people back to their country of origin. Except for Venezuela. 32 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 5: That wasn't refusing to take people back of places like that. 33 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 5: I can tell you this, mister President. No, the foreign 34 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 5: policy of the United States is conducted by the President 35 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 5: of the United States, not by a court, and no 36 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 5: court in the United States has a right to conduct 37 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 5: the foreign policy of the United States. It's that simple, 38 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 5: end of story. 39 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 6: No one in the Trump administration mentioned that Garcia was 40 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 6: not given due process before he was deported and that 41 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 6: there was a court order forbidding his deportation to El Salvador. 42 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 6: Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis. David start 43 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 6: by telling US, who Brego Garcia is and how he 44 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 6: ended up in an El Salvador prison. 45 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 4: A Brego Garcia is a migrant from l Salvador who 46 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 4: lived in Maryland outside of Washington. He has a wife 47 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 4: and three children who are US citizens. He had been 48 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 4: working as a day laborer. He had been picked up 49 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 4: by immigration authorities in twenty nineteen, and they said in 50 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 4: proceedings that year that he was a member of MS thirteen, 51 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 4: which is a criminal gang. A Brego Garcia and his 52 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 4: attorneys steadfastly denied that. What's clear coming out of those 53 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen proceedings is that an immigration judge ruled that 54 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 4: he could not be deported to Al Salvador because he 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 4: would be subjected to persecution and extortion by another criminal gang, 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 4: and so that meant that he could not be sent 57 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 4: lawfully by the United States back to his native Al Salvador, 58 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 4: So skipping ahead, in the middle of March, he was 59 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 4: picked up by US immigration authorities who said that he 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 4: was an MS thirteen member. And at that point the 61 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 4: Trump administration had said that MS thirteen is a foreign 62 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 4: terrorist organization, and they now interpret that to mean that 63 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 4: they had the authority to remove him from the United 64 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 4: States back to his native Al Salvador, where he was 65 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 4: flown on March fifteenth in one of three planes with 66 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 4: about two hundred and fifty alleged gang members else staying 67 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 4: in a notorious prison in Al Salvador. 68 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 6: So let's skip the lower court and just go right 69 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 6: to the Supreme Court ruling, which Trump advisor Stephen miller 70 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 6: I would say wrongly characterized the Supreme Court ruling as 71 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 6: being in Trump's favor nine nothing, So explain what the 72 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 6: Supreme Court ruled unanimously last. 73 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 4: Week on April tenth. The Supreme Court said that the 74 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 4: Trump administration needed to take steps to bring back Abrego 75 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 4: Garcia because he had been wrongly deported, and that is 76 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 4: in fact something that the Justice Department admitted that he 77 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 4: was wrongly deported because of the twenty nineteen ruling that 78 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 4: he could not be sent back to Al Salvador, And 79 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 4: so the Supreme Court said that the government needed to 80 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 4: facilitate his release from custody in Al Salvador and sent 81 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 4: it back to the District court judge in Maryland to 82 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 4: work out how to facilitate this return. The judge has 83 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 4: asked for daily updates since then from the government on 84 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 4: how they were going to facilitate this return, and the 85 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 4: Trump administration has been silent on that question, has not 86 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 4: said what they were doing. And it became clear Sunday 87 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 4: night and on Monday what their real intention is, and 88 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 4: that is that they don't believe that the Supreme Court 89 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 4: ordered Abrigo Garcia returned to the United States, and they 90 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 4: don't believe that any US courts have the authority to 91 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 4: dictate foreign policy. They believe this is a question of 92 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 4: foreign policy and that it's up to the El Salvadoran 93 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 4: President Bukelly to decide whether to send him back to 94 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 4: the United States. And bu Kelly answered thatively today from 95 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 4: the Oval Office. 96 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 6: So we saw this remarkable tour de force in the 97 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 6: Oval Office, where you had President Trump, the Secretary of 98 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 6: State Marco Rubio, you have the Attorney General Pam Bondi, 99 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 6: the Vice President basically saying that they don't have to 100 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 6: return him, that it's up to L Salvador. 101 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 4: Right, and the L Salvador and President Bukelly said he 102 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 4: can't send him back. He doesn't have the power to 103 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: return him to the United States. He said, how can 104 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 4: I return him to the United States? I smuggle him 105 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 4: into the United States. I'm not going to do it. 106 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 6: This is such an unusual situation because the man who 107 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 6: was wrongfully depored is actually a citizen of L. Salvador. 108 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 6: If he was a Venezuelan, it would be a different story. 109 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 6: But now he's actually back in his native country. 110 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: But that gives more force to the Trump administration argument 111 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 4: that he's an L. Salvador citizen and that the president 112 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 4: cannot send him back to the United States. But the 113 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 4: question was was he wrongly deported from the United States 114 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 4: originally because of this twenty nineteen order that said he 115 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 4: couldn't be sent there. 116 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 6: It doesn't appear that the Trump administration has asked L. 117 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 6: Salvador to send him back, or that they intend to 118 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 6: ask L. Salvador to send him back. 119 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 4: They put it to the Salvador and President point blank 120 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: in the Oval office today, will you send him back? 121 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 4: And he said no. 122 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 7: I Mean. 123 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 6: Part of this, I think is they're afraid that if 124 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 6: they open the doors of the prison, let's say to 125 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 6: this one guy, that then they're going to have more 126 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 6: and more people trying to use that as a president 127 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 6: saying well, I don't belong here either. I mean the 128 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 6: vast majority of Venezuelans who were deported to L. Salvador 129 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 6: to that prison have no criminal record. 130 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 4: The immigration law, as I understand in the United States, 131 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 4: is stacked very much against migrants, and so the government 132 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: has a great deal of authority to deport people. The 133 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 4: cases that have reached the Supreme Court were unusual variations 134 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 4: from that law. The one involving the Alien Enemies Act, 135 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: which is not the normal immigration law that the United 136 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 4: States uses, and this one where a migrant said that 137 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 4: I have a specific order that says I cannot be 138 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 4: sent and so he was denied his due process. I 139 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 4: think the Supreme Court is not necessarily saying that Trump 140 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 4: administration cannot use regular immigration laws to deport people. It's 141 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 4: just that they have to give due process to everyone 142 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 4: they deport. 143 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 6: Tomorrow, there's going to be a hearing before the Federal 144 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 6: Court judge. And last Friday's hearing was also kind of 145 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 6: remarkable because they wouldn't even tell her where he was 146 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 6: at that time. Now we do know they've can firm 147 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 6: right that he is in the L. Salvador prison. 148 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 4: Correct. They wouldn't tell her where he was. They told 149 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 4: her over the weekend that he was alive and in 150 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 4: that El Salvador prison that's built to hold terrorists, as 151 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 4: the Salvadorans would say, but they won't say what they're 152 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 4: doing to try to return him. And this judge has 153 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 4: had very harsh words for the Justice Department in its 154 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 4: handling of the case. So one has to assume that 155 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 4: she won't be pleased with this turn of events at 156 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 4: the hearing on Tuesday. 157 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 6: So, I mean, it seems like this could go back 158 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 6: to the Supreme Court, as she issued a ruling. Since 159 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court handed down its decision. 160 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 4: She has not The Supreme Court returned it to her 161 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 4: to essentially work this out under their ruling, and she's 162 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 4: trying to do that and asking the Justice Department, what 163 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 4: are you doing to comply? And now we know their 164 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 4: answer is we don't believe we have to comply. So 165 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: it's possible she could cite people from the Justice Department 166 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: for contempt or the Department of Homeland Security. It's also 167 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 4: possible that the plaintiffs in this case, mister Abrigo Garcia's lawyers, 168 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 4: might go back to the Supreme Court. This is a 169 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 4: very unusual situation and it's hard to know how it's 170 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 4: going to play out. 171 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 6: That hearing tomorrow will be very, very interesting, and I 172 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 6: know you'll report back to us on it. Thanks so much, David. 173 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 6: That's Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis coming up next on 174 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 6: The Bloomberg Law Show. Thirty five years after they were 175 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 6: sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole 176 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 6: for murdering their parents, the Menendez brothers have a chance 177 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 6: to be released, but the LA District Attorney is fighting 178 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 6: against their release, saying they haven't taken responsibility for their actions. 179 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 6: I'm June Grosso. When you're listening to Bloomberg. 180 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 8: Today, who's actually probably the biggest day since they've been 181 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:06,479 Speaker 8: in custody. 182 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 6: This is a critical week for the Menendez brothers. Thirty 183 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 6: five years after they were convicted of shooting their parents 184 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 6: to death and their Beverly Hills mansion and sentenced to 185 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 6: life in prison without the possibility of parole. They're getting 186 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 6: a chance to argue to a judge that they've been 187 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 6: rehabilitated and should be released from prison. It comes after 188 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 6: hearing last week over the current LA District Attorney, Nathan Hackman, 189 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 6: trying to rescind the prior district attorney's request that the 190 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 6: brothers be resentenced. 191 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 7: While the Menendez brothers persist in telling these lies for 192 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 7: the last over thirty years about their self defense defense, 193 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 7: and persist in insisting that they did not subborn any 194 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 7: perjury or attempt to suborn perjury, then they do not 195 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 7: meet the standards for Ree's sentence sake. 196 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 6: The brothers joined last fri hearing by zoom as prosecutors 197 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 6: displayed graphic photos from the crime scene, taking hours to 198 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 6: paint them as serial liars. The Menendez brothers' attorney Mark 199 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 6: Geragos called DA Nathan Hoffman a nineties Neanderthal for his 200 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 6: dismissal of the allegations of sexual abuse in the case, 201 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 6: but at the end of the hearing, Judge Michael Jessic 202 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 6: denied the DA's request and the re sentencing hearing will 203 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 6: go forward on Thursday and Friday. Garrigos called it the 204 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 6: biggest day since the brothers have been in custody. 205 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 8: Justice one over politics. It's been a long time coming. 206 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 6: My guest is LA trial attorney David Ring, a partner 207 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 6: at Taylor Ring. With this fighting between the current DA 208 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 6: and the former DA, have the Menendez brothers become sort 209 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 6: of like a political pawn. 210 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: In a way, yeah, they did. The backstory is that 211 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles a few months the district Attorney was 212 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: George Gascone and the public did not favor him after 213 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: his four years in office. They wanted him out, and 214 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: he's very liberal and progressive. And here's the one who 215 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: brought this motion for resentencing that Basically, the DA's office 216 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: wants Lyle and Eric Menendez to be resentenced, knowing that 217 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: that would likely lead to them being released from prison. Well, 218 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: George Gascone got defeated badly in the November election and 219 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: the new DA is Nathan Hawkman, who's a tough on 220 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: crime sort of DA, and he came in and reversed 221 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: course and basically said, no, Lyle and Eric need to 222 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: stay in prison for the rest of their lives. This 223 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: was a cold blooded murder and I'm totally against them 224 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: being released. So yes, in a way, it's become a 225 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: bit political here. 226 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,479 Speaker 6: The District Attorney Hawkman is saying that they haven't admitted 227 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 6: to the lies they told at trial, and so they 228 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 6: haven't taken responsibility for their crime, so he wants them 229 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 6: to say they lied it trial. Is that basically it? 230 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Nathan Hakman the new DA. He's convinced and many 231 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: in the DA's office are convinced that this defense, this 232 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: self defense that Lyle and Eric came up with back 233 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: in their trials back in the nineteen nineties, was fabricated, 234 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: that they weren't sexually abused at all, that they had 235 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: absolutely no reason at all to murder their parents, and 236 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: they did it for one reason and one reason only, 237 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: that is for greed for money for their parents' inheritance. 238 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: And so you know, he truly believes that, and he says, 239 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: the whole status of the case now is the Menenta's 240 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: brothers still making the same arguments they did thirty five 241 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: or forty years ago, saying we were sexually abused, we 242 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: obviously have the right to kill our parents, but we 243 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: felt like they were going to turn around harm us 244 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: in some way. And so Hawkman and the DA is like, no, 245 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: we're not buying that at all. And so that's really 246 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: what it comes down to is Hawkman saying, these two 247 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: convicted murders haven't shown any remorse whatsoever. They're still making 248 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: all these same arguments they made many years ago for resentencing. 249 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 6: Is there anything that says that they have to admit 250 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 6: to their crime, or is it about whether they've been 251 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 6: rehabilitated in prison. 252 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: Well, it's a little bit of both, because what's going 253 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: to happen is, you know, the Menendez brothers and their 254 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: lawyers are going to come in and say, hey, we've 255 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: been model prisoners, We've served our time. We were sexually 256 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: abused and people didn't really understand sexual abuse back in 257 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties and have a much better understanding of 258 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: it today, which you know is kind of a sympathy 259 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: ploy and you know, we're in our fifties and we 260 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: deserve to be released. We're not a risk to society anymore. 261 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: Counter that to the DA, who's going to come in 262 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: and say they've shown no remorse. This was a cold 263 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: blooded murder. These guys deserve to spend the rest of 264 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: their lives in prison. They've shown no insight, they've shown 265 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: no contrition, and basically they're just saying the same things 266 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: they did forty years ago that didn't help them in 267 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: their trial and got them convicted. 268 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 6: There was a hearing on Friday over the DA's motion 269 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 6: to rescind the request for resentencing, and the prosecution, in 270 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 6: a three hour presentation, showed the graphic crime scene photos. 271 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: They did do that, and look, let's face it, this 272 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: is closely watched by the media and by the public, 273 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: so there's a little bit of a dog and pony 274 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: show going on in that courtroom. You know, if this 275 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: was just some run of the mill case that no 276 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: one was paying attention to, you probably wouldn't see that 277 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: type of evidence or photographs like that produced in that 278 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: type of hearing. But you know, they're playing to the 279 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: media and the public a little bit, and they want 280 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: people to remember how heinous and horrific these shotgun slings were. 281 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: And so that's why they're trying to introduce the photos 282 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: at the hearing the other day, and absolutely you introduce 283 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: all of that evidence again at this upcoming hearings. 284 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 6: What the judge said is there's no new information. None 285 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 6: of this is really new. They've stuck with their story. 286 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 6: It goes to whether they've been rehabilitated. 287 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't want to get too technical. So 288 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: the hearing from a few days ago, it was basically 289 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: the DA Nathan Hawkman was coming in saying, hey, I 290 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: want to withdraw this motion that my predecessor, George Gascon brought. 291 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: I don't even want it heard. I want to rescind 292 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: it all together, and the court, the judge said you 293 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: can't do that. Look, the DA's office brought it, and 294 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: the DA's office doesn't get to change their mind just 295 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: because the new DA has come in. So really all 296 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: the judges ruled on and says this hearing is going 297 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: to go forward, and really what we're going to see 298 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: at this two day hearing that's coming up, that's when 299 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: we're going to see both sides really put on kind 300 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: of a any trial at one side saying the Menenda's 301 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: brothers deserve to be released, and the district attorneys saying 302 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: they absolutely don't deserve to be released. And so you're 303 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: going to see a lot of arguments and a lot 304 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: of evidence at this upcoming two day trial. 305 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 6: The Menandez brothers attorney Mark Geragos framed this as the 306 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 6: biggest win they've had since they've been incarcerated. Do you 307 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 6: agree with that? 308 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: I do agree with that. It's a big win. You know, 309 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: the Menenda's brothers have really exhausted almost all other avenues 310 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: through the courts to be released. You know, they've they've 311 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: exhausted their appeals and their habeas corpus attempts and all 312 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: that stuff, and so this re sentencing is their best 313 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 1: shot to get released from prison, and the fact that 314 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: this judge is actually contemplating it and is going to 315 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: hear arguments and evidence over it is a victory for 316 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: them because it puts them one step closer to getting 317 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: released or at least getting their sent reduced, so they 318 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: get hearing in front of the parole board, and so 319 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: they're one step closer that they've never been before to 320 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: having a good shot at being released from prison. So yeah, 321 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: it was it was a victory for Gergos and the 322 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 1: Menendez brothers. 323 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 6: The Menendez family members were angered that the prosecutors showed 324 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 6: those gruesome crime photos, and they claim that shock over 325 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 6: the photos sent the brothers eighty five year old and 326 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 6: to a hospital critically ill. The family member said the 327 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 6: violent graphic display violated Marci's Law California's Bill of Rights 328 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 6: for Victims, which states that victims are entitled to be 329 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 6: treated with fairness and respect, and the DA apologized for 330 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 6: not giving prior warning that there was going to be 331 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 6: this graphic evidence. Most of their relatives support the release 332 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 6: of the Menendez brothers and aren't none too happy with. 333 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: This new DA Well interesting, like the public is wildly 334 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: divided on this case, so are the relatives. You have 335 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: a group of relatives who want Eric and Lyle freed, 336 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: who think they've served their time and who think they 337 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: had some sort of justification for the murders. And then 338 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: you have at least one or maybe some more other 339 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: relatives who are like, no, that was a cold blooded 340 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: murder and they should stay in prison for the rest 341 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: of their lives. You have this polarization of this case, 342 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: which is what makes it so fascinating, that makes this 343 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: hearing that's coming up fascinating as to whether or not 344 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: the judge is going to decide whether he's going to 345 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: reduce their sentence. And if he reduces their sentence, there's 346 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 1: a very good chance they get out on parole. 347 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 6: They also have a request for clemency and with the 348 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 6: governor that's another route out of prison. If this doesn't. 349 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: Work exactly correct, they really have two paths to try 350 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: to get released from prison. The one we've talked about 351 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: already is this resentencing. Look, they were they were sentenced 352 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: to life without the possibility of parole. So if they're 353 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: re sentenced and they're given, you know, forty years with 354 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: the possibility of parole. Well, they're eligible for parole, so 355 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: that's how they get out. That's path number one. Path 356 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: number two is the California Governor Newsom can grant them clemency, 357 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: meaning basically on his own, he can say, I'm reducing 358 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: your sentence to thirty years with the possibility of parole, 359 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: and that's their other avenue for getting out if the 360 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: re sentencing fails. You know, if you're reading the tea leaves, 361 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: it looks like Governor Newsom might be leaning in that 362 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: direction to maybe grant them clemency if they don't get 363 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: re sentenced. 364 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 6: And once again, that resentencing hearing will take place on 365 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 6: Thursday and Friday. Thanks so much, Dave. That's David Ring 366 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 6: of Taylor and Ring. I'm June Grosso and you're listening 367 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 6: to Bloomberg. According to a class action lawsuit, weight Watcher's 368 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 6: websites allegedly shared users' personal information, including health related data, 369 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 6: with third party tracking services like Google, Facebook, and Amplitude. 370 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 6: Several services on WeightWatchers international websites encourage providing personal data, 371 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 6: sometimes health related, in an effort to personalize a weight 372 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 6: loss journey, but a lawsuit alleges that WW International provided 373 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 6: that data and other identifiable information to third parties despite 374 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 6: promises in its privacy policy. Joining me is an expert 375 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 6: in cybersecurity and data privacy. Colin Walkee, a partner at 376 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 6: Holestal So Colin what kind of information did WeightWatchers allegedly 377 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 6: give out. 378 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 2: And how so WeightWatchers was able to give out this 379 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: information utilizing pixels that were on their website from companies 380 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 2: like Facebook, Splash, Meta Google for analytics purposes. And their 381 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: allegations are that essentially every question that you answered on 382 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: their website up to and including you know, are you 383 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: living with type two diatabetes? Have you used any weight 384 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 2: loss medication? You know, do you have a history of cancer? 385 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: Blood pressure? All of these sorts of sensitive information, low testosterone, 386 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: All of these questions were questions that you were supposed 387 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: to answer when you went to the website that had 388 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: these pixels on them and share that information then with 389 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: third parties. 390 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 6: The sharing with third parties was deliberate or was it 391 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 6: a mistake? 392 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: Well, it appears that it was deliberate. I mean, according 393 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: to the allegations, certainly weight Watchers knew about utilizing pixels 394 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 2: in relation to healthcare information because the Federal Trade Commission 395 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: has issued warnings to that, and in fact, weight Watchers 396 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 2: was sued once before regarding these types of issues, and 397 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,719 Speaker 2: so weight Watchers knew that pixels were being utilized and 398 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 2: continued to do so in spite of warnings from the 399 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: Federal Trade Commission. So, for example, like fitbit, it couects 400 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: healthcare information, but it's not a hippoprotected entity, and so 401 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: they can do whatever they want with that information. So consequently, 402 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: the FEC came out and said, no, you need to 403 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: start treating healthcare information wildly different than any other type 404 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 2: of information and protect it better, ie, don't use pixels 405 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: on website. 406 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 6: They had a privacy policy, right, and they pledged that 407 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 6: they wouldn't share the information without written consent. 408 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 2: That's correct, but you have to read between the lines 409 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 2: on their privacy policy because they do not that they 410 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: share this information with third parties. And that part of 411 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: the problem with privacy policies. One, if you actually took 412 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 2: the time to read all of them, you know, you 413 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 2: would never actually utilize a website. You'd just be reading 414 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: all these vague details. And then two, because there aren't 415 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: requirements on what privacy policies have to contain. With certain 416 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: nominal exceptions, they can get away with making broad statements 417 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: like we don't sell or share your data to third parties, 418 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 2: and at the same time they can still do it 419 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 2: because they'll share that information for marketing purposes or other 420 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 2: sorts of quote unquote internal business purposes. And so if 421 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: you're utilizing the information for internal business purposes i e. Analytics, 422 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: then you can get away with sharing this type of 423 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: information with certain parties. So it's really all about wordsmithing. 424 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 6: They're suing them for exactly what. 425 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so for several different violations. One, there's a couple 426 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 2: of state law claims involved in this as well as 427 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: unjust enrichment because you're taking individual private information and then 428 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: profiting off of it. They've included a claim for intrusion 429 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: upon to seclusion, which is a common law claim, a 430 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 2: violation of the California Code as well as the New 431 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 2: York General Business Code, and violations of the Electronic Communications 432 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: Privacy Act. So they have two or three common law 433 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: claims and two statutories. 434 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 6: Weight Watchers is reportedly facing bankruptcy if it does go 435 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 6: into bankruptcy, what happens with the data? 436 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 2: So that's all part of the question, right. So first 437 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: and foremost, this class action law to filed against weight 438 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: Watchers was filed on April nine, so they're still at 439 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 2: the beginning stages. And in fact, I do not believe 440 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: that wait Watchers has answered yet. If it's the case 441 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: that WeightWatchers is in fact going to file for bankruptcy, 442 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: the question becomes is it going to be like a 443 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: twenty three and me situation in which they're looking for buyers, 444 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: ie a Chapter seven or something along those lines, or 445 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: is it going to be something more like a Chapter 446 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: eleven where it's a true restructuring, in which case WeightWatchers 447 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily sell or give away this information to any 448 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 2: third parties, but would retain it for their future use, 449 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: you know, after they've addressed all of their debt issues. 450 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: But all that said, it goes right back to what 451 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: we saw with twenty three and meters filing bankruptcy, which is, 452 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 2: if it's the case that they go ahead and liquidates company, 453 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 2: these are assets, which is part of the reason why 454 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: the plane eff stued for unjust En Richmond. And this 455 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 2: is the private type of information that's going to be 456 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 2: sold in a bankruptcy proceeding. 457 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 6: So you can go on these sites and they give 458 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 6: you options about whether you want to share your information 459 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 6: or not. Does any of that matter in reality? 460 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: Well, so you've got to remember there's a slight difference 461 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: between for example, accepting cookie right or rejecting cookies, which 462 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: is one way that they can obtain your information. But 463 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: anytime you fill out a form, the form and that 464 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: information is going to be stored with that company. So 465 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: even if you opt out of all cookies, you might 466 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: still be consenting to them utilizing this information. Because remember 467 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: all state laws at this stage are opt out and 468 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: with the exception of Colorado, which is a minor exception 469 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 2: for sensitive information, but otherwise these are all opt out statuses. 470 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 2: And what that means is is while you may decline cookies, 471 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: once you've submitted your information to that company, they can 472 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 2: basically do anything that they want with that information, up 473 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: to including selling it to third party. 474 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 6: So then as you respond to the questions or fill 475 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 6: out forms, you should just consider that information is gone. 476 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 6: Whatever information I'm giving them. 477 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 2: I don't think that most consumers realize how unprotected their 478 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 2: data is once you go on the Internet and you 479 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: interact with the third party for all intents and purposes, 480 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: that information is then going to be retained by them 481 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 2: and they can pretty much do whatever they want with it. 482 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: And so the concept of privacy no longer exists because 483 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: we have divided human beings from their data. What the 484 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 2: reality is is human beings are data. What we do 485 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 2: on a daily basis is being collected, and so consequently 486 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: we need to make sure or we need to try 487 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: and obtain right to our data, not just privacy laws 488 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 2: and those sorts of things, but actual rights, because then if, 489 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: for example, weightwatcher says we don't sell your information or 490 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: give it away to third parties, and meta gets hacked 491 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden you find out that they've 492 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: got WeightWatchers information in their website, you now have a claim, 493 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: plain and simple, because they stole your property and used 494 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: it without your consent. But right now, there are no 495 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 2: laws on the books they even except for a few 496 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 2: minor exceptions, that say your data is yours. Otherwise your 497 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: data is whoever you. 498 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 6: Give it to, So then it would take a law 499 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 6: to change this. 500 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: That's correct. So, for example, in Oklahoma, and this is 501 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: the only law that I'm aware of on the books, 502 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: but I would love to see it in other states. 503 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: In Oklahoma, there's a law that says if you upload 504 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: health care information to Oklahoma's Health Information Exchange, which is 505 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: a database that most states have where if you get 506 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: injured in one part of the state, a doctor in 507 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: another part of the state can look up that information 508 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: and the Health Information Exchange. And the law says that 509 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: all of the information and data that you upload to 510 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: the Health Information Exchange, you quote retain a property right 511 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: in that healthcare data, but then gives them a license 512 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: to use it. So there is a statutory instantiation of 513 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: your property rights in your healthcare data. Now how far 514 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: does that extend, Probably not much further than your healthcare data. 515 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: But you can see how we would be able to 516 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: pass the law that would cover any type of data 517 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: that you give over to third parties. 518 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 6: So a few months ago, I got to notice that 519 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 6: a company had been hacked, and it was a company 520 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 6: that was so somehow involved in processing claims for one 521 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 6: of my doctors. So you're giving information to your doctors 522 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 6: and somehow that information is getting hacked. 523 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 2: So that's another great example. So within HIPPA there are 524 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: rules that permit third parties to utilize this data on 525 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: behalf of the covertant. So for example, your doctor, he 526 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: gives this over to a third party so that they 527 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 2: can essentially manage it, but not utilize it without his permission. 528 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: Here's the problem is that I would be shocked in 529 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: a sound whether many, if any health care entities actually 530 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: then go to their business associates and bet their cybersecurity 531 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: protocols instead. Business associate agreements typically say that you know 532 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: you're going to comply with HIPPA and you're going to 533 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: comply with my instructions, but there's no verification, there's no 534 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: auditing that in fact, that's what they're doing with that data. 535 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 2: And in healthcare space, it is all over the place 536 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: because you're sharing information with testing facility, with third party 537 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: billing companies, so your data gets spread all over the place, 538 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: and you're hoping and praying that somebody's actually imply with 539 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: that business associate agreement. 540 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 6: And their solution is usually to give you something like 541 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 6: a year of free credit monitoring. But what can you do. 542 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 6: You really don't have a choice but giving information in 543 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 6: some of these situations. 544 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: That's a very good point and not only that, but 545 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: what are you going to do about the data breaches themselves. 546 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 2: I mean, in HIPPA, if somebody has breached in less 547 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: than five hundred healthcare records or access the reporting entity, 548 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 2: it does not have to report that hack until February 549 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: one of the following year. So you, as a consumer, 550 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: how are you going to protect yourself when you find 551 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: out about this hack a year later? You're not. And 552 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: in fact, I've been an advocate that we need to 553 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: rethink our breach notification laws altogether, because just like you said, 554 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: what do you do when you get that piece of paper? 555 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: You throw it away or you call a credit agency 556 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: to monitor your credit. That's about all that you can 557 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: do at the moment. There needs to be more meat 558 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: on the bones when it comes to data breach notification requirements. 559 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 6: And for a moment, I want to turn to to 560 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 6: the issue of DOGE accessing personal data of Americans. I 561 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 6: was surprised in appeals court I think it was last 562 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 6: week cleared the way for DOZE to access people's private 563 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 6: data at three federal agencies. And then on Friday, a 564 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 6: Manhattan judge said that one person, one member of does 565 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 6: could have access to sensitive payment and data systems at 566 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 6: the Treasury Department. I mean, this is another case of 567 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 6: information that you have no control over that the government. 568 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 2: Has absolutely and it's not just information that you've supplied 569 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: through for example, social security information and those sorts of things, 570 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: but it's all that information plus whatever else that the 571 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: government can aggregate from data brokers, which they have full 572 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: range and free access to just by asking the data 573 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: brokers to give them copies of that information. And so 574 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: it is very concerning, especially when you have individuals that 575 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: haven't necessarily been vetted through proper credentialing, background checks and 576 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: those sorts of things. But that's the problem is is 577 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: how much are we going to trust our governments, whether 578 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: that's a Democrat sitting in there or a Republican how 579 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: much do we want to trust them with our data? 580 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: And just think about it this way. Every time that 581 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: you go to the airport, you have that bio information 582 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: screen face check when you go to check in. That 583 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: information is then stored and utilized so that, for example, 584 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: if you're in New York City and there's a street 585 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 2: camera that can pick you up, they can then reidentify 586 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: you fairly quickly, and not just that, but your gate. 587 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 2: All sorts of unique aspects about you are stored not 588 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: just by third parties, but by the government as well. 589 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 2: The thing is is that I do not think that 590 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: people appreciate the surveillance state that we live in at 591 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: the particular moment. If we want to identify any particular 592 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: person in the United States right now, at this moment, 593 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: where they're at, if they have a cell phone, we 594 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: can do that fairly easy. 595 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 6: So you mean that all the TV shows and movies 596 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 6: that show a law enforcement agency tracking someone's every move 597 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 6: are true? It is. 598 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: It is. It's a very sery situation in which we're 599 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 2: living in front of. I mean, for example, you know, 600 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 2: one of the questions on Weight Watchers was, you know, 601 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: have you made yourself vomit within the past week. What 602 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: you could imagine then that information being sold to some 603 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 2: diet pill company who then sends a targeted ad towards you, 604 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 2: And now you're getting you know, fluff medication from some 605 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: third party that probably doesn't work as opposed to from 606 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 2: your actual healthcare provider. And so it's really concerning how 607 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: we're giving away this information, how can be utilized. 608 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 6: So what do you do when a website asked for 609 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 6: your information. 610 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: So again it's all about risk and so certain websites 611 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: I have to use, but I will tell you I 612 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: don't use apps on my phone at all. I have 613 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: like five apps that didn't come pre stored, and it's 614 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: because I'm more concerned about them tracking me on my 615 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 2: phone and where I'm at, more so than necessarily what 616 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 2: I'm uploading the website. Because the reality is is we 617 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: live in the world in which we have to upload 618 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: information to websites every day. So it's a matter of 619 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 2: managing your risk. 620 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 6: So then when you check don't follow me, uh huh, 621 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 6: that doesn't work. 622 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 2: Well, it can, I mean it can to some degree, 623 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 2: but you just never know. I mean there's a lot 624 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 2: of backdoors, and so I just prefer not to even 625 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: risk it. 626 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 6: So I guess the only solution is to go back 627 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 6: to an analog world. 628 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: I think that's the way people are going to realize 629 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 2: they need to be safe. 630 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, whenever I talk to you, Colin, I make a 631 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 6: pledge to be more careful about my data. Not that 632 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 6: it can help much, but thanks for the warnings. That's 633 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 6: Colin Walkee of hall Estel And that's it for this 634 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 6: edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always 635 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 6: get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. 636 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 6: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at 637 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 6: www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast slash Law, and 638 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 6: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight 639 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 6: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and 640 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 6: you're listening to Bloomberg