1 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: for joining me for session three fifty three of the 12 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,919 Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. 14 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Pierre D. Brown and I'm on the Therapy 15 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: work as an art therapist. 17 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: Playing with markers, clay, and stencils is something we may 18 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: recall fondly from our youth, but today dismiss as childish. 19 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: Art therapy, however, is a very legitimate and relaxing form 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: of therapy for all ages that challenges us to think 21 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: through our emotions by putting pen to paper to tell 22 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: us more. Today, I'm joined by Chicago based artist and 23 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: registered art therapists Pierra D. Brown. Since graduating with her 24 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: Masters from the School of the Art Institute, she's worked 25 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: both in communities, schools, and hospitals to provide clinical services 26 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: to people of all ages. In recent years, Pierra started 27 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: utilizing her social media to raise awareness on what art 28 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: therapy is and the benefits it has on mental health 29 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: and wellness. During our conversation, Piera and I discussed the 30 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: training needed to become an art therapist, how art therapy 31 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: can be used as an alternative or in supplement with 32 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: traditional talk therapy, and what art therapy can teach us 33 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: about shedding our perfectionist habits. If something resonates with you 34 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social 35 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TVG in session or join us 36 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode. 37 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls 38 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for 39 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: joining us today, Pierra, Thank. 40 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: You for having me. I'm so excited and nervous all 41 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 2: at the same time. 42 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: Oh, it will be painless. I promise, I promise. So 43 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about how you got started 44 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: with art. What is your earliest memory of being an 45 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: art lover. 46 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: I've always loved art. I'm very like tactiles, always building stuff. 47 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: I was into like science kits, little crochet making bees, 48 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: through and through ninety childs. So I was like, I 49 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: want every craft I've seen. So I was making bracelets, 50 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: the little looms, all the things. So I've always been 51 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: into art doing art. I never had the thought that 52 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: I wanted to be like an artist or anything. I 53 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: was just like, I like doing it. 54 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: I got it. You know. As I'm thinking, it does 55 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: feel like we had a very different relationship to like 56 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: arts and crafts as children than I think like my 57 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: own children have now, like they do some kind of 58 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: like friendship bracelet knitting stuff. But I definitely feel like 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: we have more crafty kinds of things as children. 60 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: No, we absolutely did. And I love bringing it back 61 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: to some of my younger patients or some of my 62 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 2: adults to be like, oh my god, I remember doing 63 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: this with it. I was like, yes, bring all the 64 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: nineties stuff back. 65 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. So tell me about 66 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: how that journey, like your initial interests in are then 67 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: transitioned to you becoming an art therapist. So what inspired 68 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: you to actually look into this as a career, Plath, 69 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: It was actually. 70 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: A complete accident. I originally was going to get my 71 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: bachelors in psychology. I was going to double major education psychology, 72 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: but the education programs will to intend, so I like 73 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: psychology more and we're required to take like additional electives. 74 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: I took a ceramics course, so I was like, oh, 75 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: I did in high school, I'll do it again. And 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: it just so happened that my professor was like, you're 77 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: really good at this. What are you in school for? 78 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, psychology. So he was like, 79 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: have you heard of art therapy? I feel like he 80 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 2: slicked with try to get me into the art program, 81 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 2: but he needed, like to diversify it a little bit. 82 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 2: But it all worked out because I had never heard 83 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: of art therapy prior to I want to say it 84 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: was like the first semester of my junior year of 85 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: undergrad got it. 86 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. I do feel like art therapy is one of 87 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: those specialties that people kind of find accidentally. Now hopefully 88 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: that changes after your interview, right, then people can be 89 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: more intentional about teaking it out as a path. But 90 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: I think most people often have a story like this right, 91 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: like that they find out a about it through Happens Stands. 92 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: So tell me, if somebody is looking for an art therapist, 93 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: what kinds of things should they be looking for? Like, 94 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: are there certain credentials that we should be aware of? 95 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: There is So when you were going through the art 96 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: therapy program, you have to get a master's So starting off, 97 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 2: if you're working with someone, they have to have the 98 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 2: MA behind their name that they finish their master's program. 99 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: And following that you have the ability. Depending on the 100 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: state that you're in, you can either get certified. Illinois 101 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: does not have a certification. I'm actually just a registered 102 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: art therapist, but they prepare you through the program that 103 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: I went through to either go get your LCPC. You 104 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: can go that route and so you can have those credentials. 105 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: I skipped that route. I wanted to jump just straight 106 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: towards my registration. So you have ATR registered art therapists 107 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: and then you have ATRBC or certified in the future. 108 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: That is my goal. I just don't like taking tests. 109 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: It requires taking tests and I'm not a test girl, 110 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: but those are the credentials when you're looking for an 111 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: art therapist, like an official registered art therapist and not 112 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: just someone who, oh I like to do art and 113 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: I want to incorporate it with mental health. Those are 114 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: the credentials that you will look for. 115 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: Got it? So walk us through what an actual art 116 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: therapy session looks like, like how is art therapy actually 117 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: different from traditional talk therapy? 118 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,239 Speaker 2: So I work in two spaces, clinical and a non clinical. 119 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 2: So I'll walk you through my clinical how working and 120 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: behavioral health hospital. And so when doing my art therapy, 121 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: I work with groups up to twenty patients and my 122 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: general groups, I will have like an identified art activity 123 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 2: that I'm going to do with the patients that kind 124 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: of touch on different goals that are amongst the general 125 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: treatment plan. And so I will start off with an 126 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: introduction about who I am, what I'm there for, what 127 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: we're going to be doing, and then I will present 128 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: them with the art materials and then they will go 129 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: through get their art materials, start the activity, and as 130 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: they're working, I will interact with the patients. It's a 131 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 2: lot of patients, so it's never just like a sit 132 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 2: down thing, but I will start them with the art activities. 133 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: Sometimes the art activity is very open. It's more for 134 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: a self care relaxation, being able to sit and calm 135 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: and quiet, and sometimes it has like a specific direction, 136 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: and as they're going through that, I will check in 137 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: with them how are they're feeling. I will ask them questions. 138 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: And in that space it's only forty five minutes, so 139 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: it's really really quick, and so I'm just trying to 140 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: get them to make the art as much as possible. 141 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: But as they're making art, I will ask the questions 142 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: about how they're feeling emotionally, things that are coming up 143 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: for them. In that space. As far as my non 144 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: clinical setting, there's a lot more time. I always tell 145 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: people whenever they want to work with me, I'm like, 146 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: it's an hour thirty minutes to two hours, so that 147 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: way they can make the art and then we can 148 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: have conversation in the middle of it, and then like 149 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: the last fifteen to twenty minutes, then we can engage 150 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: in a conversation about emotions that came up for them 151 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: while making the art, how it relates back to their 152 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: life or their past, whatever it is. In that setting, 153 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: there's more time allotted to the processing part of the 154 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: art making, and in comparison to a traditional therapist, I'm 155 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: just using the art materials, the art directives as a 156 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: tool to initiate some one of those thoughts, to spark 157 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: those like, oh, I haven't thought about it this way, 158 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: and it makes a little bit easier to process. 159 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: Got it. So it's interesting that you described the longer process, 160 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: like the hour and thirty minutes two hour session as 161 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: non clinical, because that sounds more clinical. 162 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: To me in some ways. 163 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: Are you talking about it just in terms of like 164 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: the settings the hospital versus not in the hospital? 165 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: Is that what? Yes? No, it is so clinical me 166 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: working behavior health, I'm following and going by specific treatment plans. 167 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: I do documentation. Then my non clinical I'm working within 168 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: the community. There is no treatment plan. I'm not doing 169 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: documentation at the end. But it has the same premise. 170 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: It's just it's it's very like it's a little like baselines, 171 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: little self care for the non clinical stuff. Some things 172 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: can come up, they might be like triggering or some 173 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: experiences that they have, but in the non clinical setting, 174 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: we can briefly touch on that and then I can 175 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: refer them to someone else versus like it coming back 176 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: to me that kind of like. 177 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: Help that is helpful. So I'm curious how are you choosing, 178 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: like what kinds of art activities your clients and your 179 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: patients are doing, and what is the purpose? So like 180 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: why might you choose one art activity versus another, and 181 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: like why are you even using art? 182 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: Okay, I will break it down because I work with 183 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 2: like adults, pediatric and adolescents. So for my adults, I'm 184 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: really big in exposure exposing my patients to art materials 185 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: because a lot of the patients I work with are 186 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: brown and black and under service areas, so a lot 187 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 2: of the time they have artists taken out of schools 188 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: and sometimes they don't get that ability to explore art 189 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: because a lot of the adults in their mindset arts 190 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: for kids. So it's more like an exposed your things. 191 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 2: So I will bring them like a range of art materials. 192 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: And within the hospital setting, we are limited to what 193 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: we can use. So in my little like little create 194 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: that I have to carry, my main things that I 195 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 2: like to bring are markers, oil, pastels, crayons. I have 196 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 2: some stensiles I bring like a folder of like puzzles, 197 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 2: whereas arch just amazes, things that I'm able to like 198 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: see visually, like I'm missing some or I can count 199 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: I have, like watercolor paints, things that I know, I 200 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: can count, I can keep track of because in that space, 201 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: some of the patients they're there for specific needs and 202 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 2: they can't be around or they can't have certain materials. 203 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 2: But for the adults, it's just more exposure. I want 204 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: to expose them to different art materials, let them explore, 205 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: let them just be able to like, I really like this. 206 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have thought to like use oil pastels. I 207 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 2: like how it feels. I like the messiness, or I 208 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 2: used to pay when I was younger. I want to 209 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: get back into it. So for my adults, it's just 210 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: more bringing them to what they most likely aren't going 211 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: to be in contact with in their day to day. 212 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: From my adolescents, it ranges so if I'm talking with 213 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: my nursing stuff and they say, hey, miss p they've 214 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: been struggling with let's say, oh, relationships, and I'm like, okay, 215 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: you know, we might have a conversation about relationships and dating, 216 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 2: and I might create an art activity around relationships, identifying 217 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: family relationships, romantic friendships, and we'll go from there. And 218 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 2: for my peds, it's always about working as a group, 219 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: having to share, transitioning, so going from one spot to 220 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: another spot, a little bit of like everything because they're 221 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: younger and I want to make sure I like touch 222 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: on a lot of things. But when I'm creating the 223 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: art activity, I just kind of go day to day, 224 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: like I relate today. Can they handle this? Have they 225 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: been very aggressive? Can I bring the paints? No, they're 226 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: a little too opposed to if I won't bring the paints. 227 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: And then as far as my non clinical community stuff, 228 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: I usually talk with the organizations and they let me 229 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: know what topics that they have to address, and I'm like, 230 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: all right, cool, and then from there I'll create a topic, 231 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: find art active, and direct it back to the topic 232 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: that they want. 233 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: Got it. So I had a chance to take an 234 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: art therapy elective in grad school, and I'm remembering two 235 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: distinct experiences in that class. So one the assignment was 236 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: something like to visualize a rose bush and like then 237 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: draw it. And I remember really struggling with that because 238 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: I had never seen a rose bush like I had 239 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: seen like roses at Kroger or you know, like but 240 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: I don't think I had ever seen a rose bush, 241 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: and so it really was difficult for me to complete 242 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: this exercise. And I would imagine like thinking through like 243 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: the cultural competence of assigning certain kinds of assignments. Can 244 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: you talk about like how you think through like what's 245 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: appropriate and you already talked about wanting to expose them 246 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: to as many like materials as possible. Can you talk 247 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: through like the cultural pieces of why you're choosing certain 248 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: assignments for your clients. 249 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: Of course, so speaking of like the rose bush activity, 250 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 2: I do have an activity whereas like imagine yourself as 251 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 2: a tree, and we all have a very generic view 252 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: of a tree. So I will come prepared with examples 253 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: of trees and allow them to explore the variety because 254 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: I know they, Like I said, I worked with brown 255 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: and black individuals and underserved spaces, and especially in Chicago, 256 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: a lot of our patients they don't leave their communities. 257 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: Cargo's very segregated, so they don't leave their communities. So 258 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: I'm always aware, Okay, will they have some sort of 259 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: awareness of what different trees look like? No, I'm going 260 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: to provide them with this sort of aid. Sometimes as 261 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: far as art materials. I know a lot of the 262 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 2: time no one has ever used oil pastels, but I 263 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: will take the time and if they're interested and they're like, 264 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 2: you know, miss P, what is this, I'm like, Oh, 265 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: they're oil pastels. Let me show you how you can 266 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: use them. I always am prepared to like show them 267 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: how to use cerve materials because I know they don't 268 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: have that experience, especially my adolescents and my peeds. They're 269 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: taking art out of schools, so sometimes they're like, I 270 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: want to use those you know, WATERCOLORSK cool? Miss P. 271 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: Can you show me how? Yes, I can or my 272 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: little kids to work on their fine motor skills working 273 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: with stencils. Miss P, I can't do this. I'm going 274 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: to show you how. I'm going to walk you through it. 275 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: It's taking things that they should traditionally be learning in school, 276 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: but bringing it into a space where they're able to 277 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: have that opportunity to learn those skills. 278 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: Got it? And can you talk about you know, so 279 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: you said they do the assignment and then like you're 280 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: asking them questions, So what kinds of questions might you 281 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: be asking based on whatever the art project was? 282 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: You know what? Honestly, it depends on what I'm observing. 283 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: So if I'm observing someone who's having a hard time, 284 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: like let's say the road situation, I'm like break down 285 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: and be like, hey, I noticed you're struggling. What's going 286 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: on with you? I've never seen a rose bush before? 287 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: And I'm like, really, okay, we'll think of a basic 288 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: bush and you know, we'll break it down that way, 289 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: and it's just kind of like, why you know, why 290 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: haven't you seen like a rose bush? Oh, I live 291 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 2: in apartments, we don't see that, Or how's that experience 292 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: for you? And it starts from there and it just 293 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: goes into like a guided conversation led by the patients, 294 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: but it's all of what I'm observing. If I notice 295 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: something in their artwork, I will address what's in their artwork, 296 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: and I'll have them try their best to explain like 297 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: what they drew or how they came up with this idea. 298 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: Today I had like one little kid. He was like 299 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: drawing a picture and I'm like, oh, who is that. 300 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: That's our little sister. Oh how old your little sister? 301 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: She's twelve. I'm like, wait a minute, you sure she's little? 302 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: And she's like, wait, you do it's like big sister, 303 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, you know, are you guys close? Yeah, 304 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: this is the end. It just goes from there. And 305 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: so I'm like observing what they're working on and then 306 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: going off of what they're giving me, and then it 307 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: can go further and sometimes they'll ask me questions, They'll 308 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: come up with questions, and then we'll engage in conversations 309 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: about that. Hmm. 310 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and it really does speak to the 311 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: idea that like, it isn't so much about whatever the 312 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: art project is you've assigned, right, It's really about the 313 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: deeper meaning and what is the motivation. And I think 314 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: the other thing with like art therapy and like other 315 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: kinds of non traditional kind of talk therapy, is that 316 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: you may be able to to get to a concern 317 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: or something that it would have taken you much longer 318 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: to get to in talk therapy, like art therapy, it 319 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: feels like dismantles a little bit. Can you talk a 320 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: little bit about how you've seen our therapy be used 321 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: and how it may be useful and kind of disarming 322 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: in some ways and kind of giving you more space 323 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: to have maybe more difficult conversations. 324 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, it definitely breaks that area. So when I 325 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: work with adults, sometimes they can come in my group 326 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: super super like upset and mad. They've had a hard day, 327 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: they haven't talked to their therapists or their doctor, and 328 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: they're just like, I just want to sit here. And 329 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: I'm like, you could sit there and I'll pull out 330 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: some orgony and I'll start making orgon me and they 331 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: sit and there like huh and they start to like 332 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: relax and chill out a little bit. I'm like, oh, 333 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: you want to learn, and they're like no, no, no, no no, 334 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: I just want to watch. And I'm like okay, and 335 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 2: then then they'll start looking to peak and I'm like, 336 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: let me make you something and they're like yeah, yeah, 337 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: you can make me something though, like and it's it's 338 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: such a great way to like, even if they're not 339 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: engaging in the art activity, it definitely can and like, 340 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: just Okay, it's not so bad. This is nice to 341 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: watch someone being creative. It's nice to be in a 342 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: space that's very calming and relaxing with some of my adolescents. 343 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: Some of them, like I said, maybe having a tough day. 344 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 2: They don't know who I am, and when I come 345 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: into the spaces. I'm very strict, not like super super strict, 346 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 2: but like, this is what we're doing, this is how 347 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 2: we're doing it because I want the space to be chill. 348 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 2: We only have forty five minutes. So some of them like, oh, 349 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 2: who are you? And I'm just like, listen, I didn't 350 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 2: give you no attitude, don't give me attitude. And then 351 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 2: from there they be like okay. And then we do 352 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: on art together and they see something cool and they'd 353 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: be like, oh, Okay. Miss PA's not so bad because 354 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 2: I like how she's talking to everyone else in the space, 355 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: and so I can also talk to her as well. 356 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 2: I've built many a relationships that started off super rocky 357 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 2: that turned to just missp Oh my gosh, I love you, 358 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: and it's just like I love your groups. It's so calm. 359 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: I needed this, And so in the hospital setting, it 360 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: definitely is really helpful to break that just I'm scared 361 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: to be here, I'm angry to be here, or I'm 362 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: very nervous. I don't know what I'm getting into. 363 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: Got it more from our conversation after the break. So 364 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: you said you've worked with a variety of different clients. 365 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: So Pedes adolescents and adults. Can you give us a 366 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,239 Speaker 1: breakdown of, like how often you're working with each of 367 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: those kind of demographics? 368 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: Monday through Friday, every day. 369 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: With all all those groups. So you see adults and I. 370 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 2: Do three to four groups today, yes, and so one 371 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 2: group I be peds, one group might be adolescents. So yes, 372 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 2: Monday through Friday. I see those groups. They get to 373 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: know me very very well. 374 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: Got it. And that's why you're saying, like, oh, I 375 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: don't want to be here, because of course, as a 376 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: part of them being in the hospital, sometimes these groups 377 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: are mandated, right, a part of the treatment. Got it? 378 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: Got it? Okay? Okay, So how long are you typically 379 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: working with them? Like is the group kind of time? 380 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: And in like okay, this is the twelve week group 381 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: or can you give us a breakdown of how that works. 382 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 2: So we have a set schedule in my expressive therapy 383 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: department and we see them, like I said, Monday through Friday. 384 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 2: It's all dependent on when the individual discharges, but the 385 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: groups run regularly unless there's some sort of change. And 386 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: like I have mentioned previously, the groups are only forty 387 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 2: five minutes, and so it's just when they are discharging, 388 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: that's when they'll be done seeing us. But they will 389 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 2: either see myself or another expressive therapists or like another 390 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 2: art therapist or another WREC therapist from my department, and 391 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: just each day we stay on the schedule. 392 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: Got it, got it? And of course you work in 393 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: it sounds like hospital settings where we know our therapists 394 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: work maybe in private practice or in other places. For 395 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: somebody who may be enjoying the conversation, how might they 396 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: decide whether our therapy is going to be maybe a 397 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: good fit for them or their child. 398 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 2: I always say if your child has an interest in art, 399 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: it's a good route to go if they already have 400 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 2: an interest in art, because for some people, if they're 401 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: not really interested in are they're a little hesitant. Also, 402 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 2: if they've tried traditional therapy and there is no growth, 403 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 2: I would recommend you know, like, hey, try art therapy, 404 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: try music therapy, especially for children, that those kind of 405 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: avenues help the process of therapy be a little smoother. 406 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: And it's like it doesn't feel like therapy feels like 407 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: something fun or interesting that they're going to be exploring. 408 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 2: Until it doesn't become fun and interesting. It's like, oh, 409 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: we're talking about this today. Oh man, But it is 410 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 2: a good avenue if traditional therapy isn't working for them. 411 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: And I know some individuals who do traditional therapy and 412 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: an expressive therapy in tandem because you get a little 413 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: bit of something from both the spaces. 414 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: Got it. So what if I'm considering art therapy but 415 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: I don't really feel like I'm a good drawer, like 416 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm not super artsy, or maybe my kid is not 417 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: what I also benefit from art therapy if I'm not 418 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: like a good artist. 419 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 2: Oh, listen, I always tell them, I'm I'm an art teacher. 420 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: I'm an art therapist. You're not getting a grade. You 421 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: are Listen. You come and you create at whatever level 422 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: you're trying to create at all my patients are like 423 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 2: I don't know how to do or I was like, 424 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: I'm not giving you a grade. Just come at whatever 425 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 2: creative level you're at, and it is appreciated. On my end, 426 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: I love effort. I love that you tried. I appreciate 427 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: that you tried, and if you like it, I love it. 428 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. I would imagine this is also a great space 429 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: to kind of talk through like perfectionistic kinds of tendencies, 430 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: right that need to think that there's like only one 431 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: way to do an art kind of thing. Can you 432 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: say a little bit about how therapy can help with 433 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: some of. 434 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,479 Speaker 2: That who when you're working with artists, like full fledged artists, 435 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 2: that perfectionism really is the thing that they struggle with 436 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 2: the most. And so I always encourage them. When I'm 437 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 2: working with artists who are perfectionists, I come to them 438 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: from an artist level and say, Okay, you're not here 439 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: to be an artist, You're here for therapy. You just 440 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: have an additional gift that helps with that. And I 441 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: always kind of like encourage them to use it as 442 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: like a way to improve their artistic ability. Put it 443 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: in that realm. If I'm working with someone who is 444 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 2: an artist, and I always say, try a different material 445 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: that you haven't tried before. This is your opportunity to 446 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: practice with it. And when you practice with it, you 447 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 2: will get better. And then they'd be like, I didn't 448 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: think about that, because I always want to stay with 449 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 2: where they're comfortable, like, oh, I love painting them drying. 450 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 2: Try something different that puts you out there, and then 451 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: if you don't like it, then go back to what 452 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 2: you're safe. Is. If they are not experiencing or I say, 453 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: have you done this before? Well, no, I said, then 454 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: why would you expect to be good at it the 455 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: first time. It's going to take practice the same way 456 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: that we were learning how to walk when we were younger. 457 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: We weren't perfect. We was wild and looking like a 458 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 2: little loose creatures out in the world. And so that's 459 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: what I try to instill in them. And I always say, 460 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: don't beat yourself up about it, and then if they 461 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: want to redo it, they can redo it. 462 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: So what actually happens to the art projects are the 463 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: assignments that happen as a part of art therapy session, 464 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 1: like do you keep them? Does the client keep them? 465 00:22:59,160 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: What happens with them? 466 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: Oh, they keep them unless they want to gifted to me, 467 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 2: my little kids, little like I've made this for you. 468 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: I'm like, thank you so much, and listen, I have 469 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 2: a lot of art that's in my little cubicle and 470 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: some of them may be going into trash. I'm not 471 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 2: gonna lie about it. And I'm like, yeah, it's still 472 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: in my office. But generally I say, it's your art. 473 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: I don't you know, unless you want to gifted to me, 474 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 2: it's your art. You do what you want to do. 475 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 2: So I've seen patients like, oh, okay, I'm done and 476 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: they throw it away. It's not hurting my feeling because 477 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: it's not, like I said, I'm not a teacher and 478 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: I don't have an attachment to it. And if you did, 479 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: and you just want to do it in the moment, 480 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: you want to throw it away, that's what you want 481 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: to do with your artists and your possession. 482 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: Is there ever a time I can imagine this has happened, 483 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: or maybe they are trying to express something that's a 484 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: little bit more difficult. How are you having conversations with 485 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: them to then maybe talk with parents or other people 486 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: in their lives maybe about the art project. Is that 487 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: a part of the work. 488 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: Too, Because they are inpatient, I don't get that processing 489 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: outside of the space. But if there is something that 490 00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: has reference to like self harm, I will have a 491 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: conversation with them and I will like ask them like independently, like, hey, 492 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: I noticed we have a lot of this happening in 493 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 2: your artwork. What kind of thoughts are we going through? 494 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: Are we feeling safe? And then they'll say yes, they'll 495 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 2: say no, and then I'll say, okay, do you want 496 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 2: me to notify the nursing staff and then they'll be 497 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 2: like yeah, and then we'll go from there. And so 498 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: it would be the nursing staff and the other staff 499 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: on the units that depending on like how aggressive or 500 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: shocking it is, or like some of the conversations they're 501 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 2: having about their artwork that I will direct to them. 502 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: Got it. Let's say somebody's enjoying our conversation and they're 503 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: thinking like, oh, I might want to try this out. 504 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: So maybe resources are limited or there is not an 505 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: art therapist in their area to work with. What kinds 506 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: of strategies or exercises made you suggest for somebody who 507 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: maybe wants to dabble in this a little bit, but 508 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: not necessarily like sign up for our therapy at this 509 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: point of course. 510 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: So there are actually quite a few. Social media is 511 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: a really great place to look for art therapy because 512 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: there's quite a few mutual art therapists that I do 513 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 2: follow up on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, but some 514 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 2: really safe ones. My favorite one that I love to 515 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 2: like introduce to people. It's so simple, you just kind 516 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: of go, you trace your hand and then with this activity, 517 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: I like to sometimes work on confidence in each of 518 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: the fingers. You're going to identify five positive things about 519 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: yourself and you get super creative designed like the inside 520 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 2: of the hand on the outside of the hand. A 521 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: lot of people are just like, oh, coloring books are 522 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: a great start for you if you need something super 523 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 2: super structured. It's the safe place that everyone goes. So 524 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 2: if you want to start that route and gravitate from 525 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: coloring books to just openly being creative, creating an art 526 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: journal and just utilizing different materials and just creating based 527 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: off your emotions, you can. So starting with coloring books 528 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: if you are not privy to doing art, starting with 529 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 2: their as you little safe structured space, and then navigating 530 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 2: trying different materials and doing things from there. But YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, 531 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: looking for different therapists who put our activities out there. 532 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 2: It's a great way to go more. 533 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: From our conversation after the break. The other memory I 534 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: have from that art therapy class was we were required 535 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: to make I don't think it was paper mache, but 536 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: some kind of like tacky clay something where we made 537 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: a mask of our faces and then we had to 538 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: decorate the mask. And so the conversation part of it 539 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: was like, what was the experience like making the mask? 540 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: And then also like what meaning is attached to the 541 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: way that you decorated the mask, which I think could 542 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: be a pretty powerful conversation and an exercise for black women, 543 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: right because we talk all about the mask we wear, 544 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: and so to have a physical representation of a mask, 545 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: I think could be a really cool exercise as well. 546 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: Have you done anything like that with clients? 547 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 2: I have. I do the inner and outer self, so 548 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: that I do with my adolescence because a lot of 549 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: them are perceived one way, and like I had mentioned, 550 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 2: they are bron and black, and so for my black girls, 551 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: how they're perceived on the outward does not reflect how 552 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: they're viewed inner. So I love that activity because it 553 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: breaks down what they have taken from what people have 554 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: said that's stuck to their outer self and how they 555 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 2: have internalized that. So I definitely have done that activity. 556 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: We didn't physically make a mask. We do a pay 557 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 2: per form just because like I said, certain materials are 558 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: not allowed, but that processing and how they well, my 559 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 2: mama said, I'm a hoe, so I guess it will 560 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: be a hoe And it's just like what do you 561 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: actually think you know you're that and they're like, no, 562 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: I don't feel that way. It's just you know, people 563 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 2: say it or I'm dumb, I'm stupid, and it's just like, 564 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 2: are you just saying that because other people have said it? Well, yeah, 565 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 2: well how do you really feel? I actually feel like 566 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: I'm kind of smart. I love science, and they start 567 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 2: this whole thing about how they actually feel. It's just 568 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 2: how they're acting based off of that. So I've definitely 569 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: done that activity and it is a very hard one. 570 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: Certain activities that I don't like to put out there 571 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: into the space because it does open up certain wounds 572 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: that if you do not have a trained or license 573 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: art therapists or therapist there to help you process it, 574 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: it can re trigger some things internally. And so when 575 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 2: people are like, I want to do an art therapy activity, 576 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: I'm like, what's something that is safe that is not 577 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: going to retraumatize you or make you have these specific 578 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: thoughts that you can't close. And so when people say 579 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: they want to do that, I'm just like, I'm hesitant 580 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 2: because you have no one there to support you through this, 581 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: because it's a journey when you do specific things like. 582 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: That, right, right, Yeah, And I think some of these 583 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: conversations around like social media and even sharing activities like that, 584 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: is that so much of our training is designed to 585 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: like look out for those kinds of things, right, and 586 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: so in a non trained person's eyes, it looks like, oh, 587 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: just a cool, fun activity, let's just do this, as 588 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: opposed to what kinds of things can this kind of 589 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: activity open up? So I appreciate you sharing that if 590 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: you can also talk about, like why you think our 591 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: therapy might be particularly helpful for black women and girls 592 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: as opposed to other. 593 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: Groups who because it allows them to be soft and vulnerable. 594 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 2: When I always when working with black women organizations and 595 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 2: I say, this is all about you. You're not worried 596 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: about your partner, your kids, and you have the ability 597 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: to make mistakes and you can be as creative, as sweet, 598 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: as cute as you want to be, Versus that I 599 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 2: got to worry about everybody else. I got to be 600 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: on guard. I gotta do this, I gotta do that, 601 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: And so our therapy is so good with that. And 602 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: also it teaches people to relax because I hear it 603 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: all the time. It's just like I never get an 604 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: opportunity to relax. So even if the directive it might 605 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: be a little difficult. The creating process allows them to 606 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: just relax and just this is nice. I could just 607 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 2: focus on me and my own thoughts and not everyone else. 608 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: It just allows you to be really soft, because when 609 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm with my patients, I'd be like. 610 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: Oh nice man, nice nice. So you also you've mentioned 611 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: like how you share some of this stuff on social media. 612 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about how you balance, 613 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: like what is the balance between you kind of working 614 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: as an art therapist and also now a content creator 615 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: sharing some of this who. 616 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: I've slow down a lot. So I was talking to 617 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: my friend and he's like, when did you get started? 618 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: And I was like, accidentally, and I had did like 619 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: a video and it was like what is your name? 620 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 2: Where you signed? What is your job? And then everyone's like, 621 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: I got art therapy. And then it was during COVID, 622 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: so everyone was like, oh, yeah, this is great. I 623 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 2: was like I got time. Yeah. Then life happened and 624 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: so I took about two months off and then I 625 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: was like, okay, I just I want to go slow. 626 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 2: So right now I'm getting back into Okay, I want 627 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: to be creative. I want to put more out there. 628 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: On social media. I want to navigate, so a lot 629 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: of scheduling, a lot of planning, a lot of taking 630 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: time to Okay, I know I have to make content, 631 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 2: but I want to relax today, so giving myself that 632 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: break when I need it. I recently transitioned to part 633 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 2: time because I was getting a little burned out, so 634 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: that has also helped me do the content creating portion 635 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: of it. But a lot of planning, a lot of scheduling. 636 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: And with that, how are you also finding time to 637 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: stay connected to like art pursuits, like those kinds of things. 638 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: Everyone to ask me this question, and I don't really 639 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: make art like that. I think the art for me 640 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 2: is the content creating part. I'm creative whenever it hits me. 641 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: I have like friends who when I first moved to Chicago, 642 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: I did pursue being a painter actively, and they're like, Okay, 643 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 2: where are the shows? When are you doing it? And 644 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: I'm just like, I'm not really feeling it right now. 645 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: I've slowly like done a little bit here and there, 646 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 2: But I just create when I want to create. It's 647 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: not my go to as far as like my personal 648 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: self care. Everyone assumes that's my for self care. Because 649 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: I'm urt therapist. I'm like, no, I like to move. 650 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: I'm a little adhd girly. 651 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: So got it? Got it? And who are some of 652 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: your favorite artists or your favorite art pieces? 653 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: I enjoy boss Yacht. There's this German artist I can't 654 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: think of his name, but he makes creepy, grotesque portraits 655 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: of people. And that's where I navigated my art too, 656 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: just more abstracted portraits. I don't mind portraits. I'm not 657 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: gonna lie to you. I don't know names. I just 658 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: know visuals. 659 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: So I'm curious. Pierre. Is art therapy something that's typically 660 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: covered by insurance? 661 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: Yes, actually it is. I know through like the hospital setting. 662 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: It is required for our patients to get expressive therapy, 663 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 2: which includes our therapy. And because our therapy is in 664 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: a lot of majority hospital spaces, yes, it is covered 665 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: by insurance. So when anyone is asking me how do 666 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: I locate an art therapist, I'm like, number one, if 667 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 2: you have insurance, look through your insurance because we are 668 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: through that. 669 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: Got it. That's good to know. So you've talked several 670 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: times about like art being taken out of schools. I'm 671 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: wondering if you have any thoughts or hopes for how 672 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: art and art therapy can be reintegrated into schools. 673 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 2: So after I graduated in twenty sixteen with my master's, 674 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: I actually did two years in an elementary school and 675 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: art was led by a history teacher, and so she 676 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: would come to me for ideas and I'll go like, oh, 677 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: so I as the art therapist, would do art therapy 678 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: with the kids they assigned me. But then I also 679 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: worked with Columbia College and they're after school program providing 680 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: an art therapy program. So I definitely can see that 681 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: there are organizations that go into schools and that can 682 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: provide art, and when you're working with art therapists, there's 683 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: additional benefits to that. So when I had did it, 684 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 2: you know, I was like, all right, I'm going to 685 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 2: work with the little kids because I know they don't 686 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: get art like that. We're going to do things for 687 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: fine motors, tracing, cutting, all of those things. For my 688 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 2: bigger kids, we're gonna work on sculptural things that induce 689 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: frustration and managing that. So that was like a nice 690 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 2: way to implement that working with programs that provide after school. 691 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, do you have a preference in terms of 692 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: age group, Like, is there a favorite group of clients 693 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: that you work with. 694 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: I love second graders and then I love the sixth 695 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 2: of the eighth grade. Why because they got little attitudes 696 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: and it's so fun because there's all little personalities. It's 697 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: just like they actually are like who they're going to be. 698 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 2: That's why I like second grade and then sixth of 699 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: the eighth grade. Those are like the very who it's 700 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: the very experimental years and then they're trying to figure 701 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 2: out who they are, and so I like being in 702 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 2: the space to provide them with the support and the 703 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 2: person that can go to if they have questions. Working 704 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,479 Speaker 2: at the elementary school, that was my favorite group because 705 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 2: they were always missed p I have a question about this. 706 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 2: I'm like, did you ask your mom? Is your mom? 707 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 2: And they're like she won't answer it. I'm like, Okay, 708 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 2: here we go. And it's just I like that age 709 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 2: because they have so many questions and they just are 710 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: trying to be young adults and try to navigate that space, 711 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 2: and I'm just like I want to be there to 712 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: support them on that journey. 713 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it so even outside of 714 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: like an art therapy setting. What kinds of questions can 715 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: we be asking ourselves as we are pursuing creative kinds 716 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: of things to stay connected to, like our feelings and 717 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: emotions as we are exploring creative pursuits. 718 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 2: Honestly, just how am I feeling doing this? That's like 719 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 2: the number one why am I getting mad? And then 720 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: the number one thing I also like I took from 721 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 2: undergrad and I bring it to my patients when they're 722 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: working on our project. If you're starting to feel yourself 723 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 2: get frustrated, give yourself a break and acknowledge that, Okay, 724 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 2: I'm frustrated right now, I need to break come back 725 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 2: to it with fresh eyes. And then sometimes just do 726 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 2: you actually want to be like using whatever it is 727 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 2: that you're used? Do you want to be using there? 728 00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 2: Do you want to use something else? And now are 729 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: you forcing yourself to use this? Because sometimes I'd be like, 730 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: M I want to use markers, and I'm like, I 731 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 2: don't want to use markers right now, because sometimes you 732 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 2: just think I'm gonna use markers. It's just like I 733 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: dont want to use markers. I want to be a 734 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 2: little more tactile, Like what do you need also do 735 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 2: like a physical body check. I want to work with Clay, 736 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: I want to do something with my hands. So just 737 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 2: asking yourself though, like how am I feeling? Do I 738 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 2: want to use this material? Do I need to break? 739 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 2: Do I feel done? Like? Am I happy with it? 740 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 2: Am I content? Or do I want to remove it 741 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 2: out my space? 742 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: Very helpful questions. Where can we stay connected with you? Pierre? 743 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: What is your website as well as any social media 744 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: handles like you'd like to share. 745 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 2: On Instagram you can find me at p erad dot 746 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 2: b and that's p I E R R A D 747 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 2: as a dog dot b as in boy and that's 748 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 2: on Instagram. And then on TikTok you can find me 749 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 2: at Pierra dB. It's the same thing, just a little 750 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: dot that's there. 751 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: Got it will be short. Include all of that in 752 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some 753 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: time with us today. Really appreciate it. 754 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 2: No problem, This was so nice. I liked it. 755 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so glad Piera was able to join 756 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: us and share her expertise today, So learn more about 757 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: her and the work she's doing. Be sure to visit 758 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com Slash 759 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: Session three fifty three, and don't forget to text two 760 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: of your girls right now and tell them to check 761 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in 762 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls 763 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue 764 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: digging into this topic or just be in community with 765 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: other sisters, come on over and join us in the 766 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: sister Circle. It's our cozy corn of the Internet designed 767 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: just for black women. You can join us at community 768 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced 769 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was 770 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining 771 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: me again this week. Look forward to continuing this conversation 772 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take it care 773 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 2: What