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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's me James today and I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: Hulia Messner from Seawatch. She's one of the spokespeople for

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Speaker 1: sea Watch, your organization at Rescuesditerranean rescuse migrants in the Mediterranean.

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Speaker 2: Hud Hi, good morning, welcome.

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Speaker 3: Hi, thank you so much for your invitation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not good money for you.

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Speaker 1: I guess could you start off by explaining to us

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Speaker 1: perhaps what Seawatch does and why there's a need for

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Speaker 1: it to do that as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. So Seawatch is a civility and search

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Speaker 3: and rescue organization, So we are trying to save people

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Speaker 3: from distress at sea, in the Mediterranean Sea. So you

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Speaker 3: can imagine the situation being very cruel at the European

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Speaker 3: external borders right now. So far more than two two

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Speaker 3: hundred people drowned only this year while trying to flee

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Speaker 3: to the European Union and the area we cover, people

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Speaker 3: are mostly fleeing from Tunisia and Libya for example, to Italy,

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Speaker 3: but also trying to reach Malta for example. So what

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Speaker 3: we are trying to do is actually really rescuing bar

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Speaker 3: with ships. So currently we have two ships. One is

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Speaker 3: prepared at the moment for its first operation and the

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Speaker 3: second one had just had rescue on the weekend and

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Speaker 3: is now currently blocked initially. And on the other side,

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Speaker 3: we also have monitoring airplanes surveying the area and trying

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Speaker 3: to monitor the human rights situation over the Mediterranean, and

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Speaker 3: trying to monitor firstly state violence but also secondly trying

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Speaker 3: to give information when the airplanes are finding boats and

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Speaker 3: stress then for people being rescued.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so there's a lot there. I think that we

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Speaker 1: should probably break down for people. And the first thing

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Speaker 1: I think is you said that one of your boats

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Speaker 1: is blocked.

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Speaker 2: Now, yes, maybe people won't.

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Speaker 1: Be familiar with the way that certain European countries have

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Speaker 1: reacted to the migration coming across the Mediterranean, So can

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Speaker 1: you explain what blocking constitute.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So in Europe, like since a few years, in

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Speaker 3: several years, we also see an increase in ultra right

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Speaker 3: wing movements and also ultra right governments. So what is

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Speaker 3: happening now, especially in Italy where we are operating from,

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Speaker 3: is that we have a ultra right wing government under

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Speaker 3: the President Georgia Miloney installed and the government is currently

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Speaker 3: trying to hinder civility rescue because it's a way to

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Speaker 3: actually hinder and also block migration. So in the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the year, for example, there was a decree put

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Speaker 3: in place that really makes it so much harder for

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Speaker 3: us to operate. And at the moment after our rescue

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Speaker 3: on the weekend, we are blocked for twenty days, meaning

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Speaker 3: that we cannot go out and do our usual work

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Speaker 3: in the Mediterranean, but our ship has to stay import

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Speaker 3: because Italian authorities are claiming that we violated the decree,

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Speaker 3: which is actually going against international law.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I think when you say that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: hinder migration in the Mediterranean, that's quite a nice way

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Speaker 1: of saying, I guess, because what this means is that

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Speaker 1: they are making that migration even more dangerous than it

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Speaker 1: already is by not allowing people to be rescued. Right,

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Speaker 1: and as you said, it's already incredibly dangerous, and the more.

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Speaker 3: Correct the Mediterranean Sea is a graveyard. Like as I said,

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Speaker 3: more than twenty two hundred people died this year only crossing,

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Speaker 3: and thousands of people died since twenty and fourteen. Like

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Speaker 3: numbers can be seen like with the IUMS or the

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Speaker 3: International Organization of Migration for example, that I'm monitoring. Also

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Speaker 3: the situation in the central and from Mediterranean and what

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Speaker 3: this place or this external border actually constitute constitutes is

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Speaker 3: a crime scene, a crime scene again for crimes against

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Speaker 3: humanity because state states are like purposefully, really intentionally letting

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Speaker 3: people drown.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, it's tragic, it's really horrible.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain a little bit about like the way

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Speaker 1: that I guess just the mechanics of people crossing the

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Speaker 1: vessels they use, where they like the journey, people have

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Speaker 1: seen the Mediterranean at all, like depending on where they live.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they might live on the med but if they

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe they've seen beaches and beach holidays in

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Speaker 1: Spain or something. And obviously that's that's not all of it.

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Speaker 1: So can you explain a little bit about the conditions

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Speaker 1: of the crossing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so people are all people that we rescue mostly

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Speaker 3: are trying to flee from Tunisia as well as Libya.

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Speaker 3: So the situation in Libya, for example, is really horrible.

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Speaker 3: It's very violent. There's a lot of documentation of torture camps,

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Speaker 3: of rape, of murder, of a slave trade, and people

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Speaker 3: that comes come from the sub Sahuaran region and are

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Speaker 3: trying to flee to the European Union, are crossing Libya,

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Speaker 3: for example, but also in Tunia. At the situation at

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Speaker 3: the moment is very dire. Is it's very racist. There's

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Speaker 3: like racist a violent campaign started by the Tunisian president

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Speaker 3: in the beginning of the year especially, so we see

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Speaker 3: a lot of institutional racism. We see a lot of

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Speaker 3: racism and also a lot of violence on the streets.

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Speaker 3: So people are really trying to flee from the country,

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Speaker 3: and people are using all means possible, of course, because

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Speaker 3: they have to. There's no easy way to come to Europe.

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Speaker 3: Then people fleeing cannot just take a train or an

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Speaker 3: airplane actually and then like trying to reach shores of

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Speaker 3: the European Union, of a boat is they are only mean,

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Speaker 3: so they're really forced to do that. And boats that

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Speaker 3: are used are for example inflatable boats, but also metal boats.

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Speaker 3: And these metal boats especially are very very dangerous because

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Speaker 3: they are only constructed really not in good conditions, so

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Speaker 3: they're really easy to sink. So as soon as water

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Speaker 3: comes in, these boats are actually thinking. So people are

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Speaker 3: also mostly not wearing life wests, so it's really dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Like the number of people on the boat is way

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Speaker 3: too high for their capacities. So most boats as soon

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Speaker 3: as they go on to see they are actually in

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Speaker 3: the stress and they are in need of rescue.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, and then let's talk about some of the

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Speaker 1: rescues that see what has been able to do, because

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Speaker 1: some of them have resulted in the really big numbers

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Speaker 1: of people you've been able to save. Right, I think

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Speaker 1: there was one in twenty seventeen, which is fifty something people,

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean could very well be seventeen. I didn't

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Speaker 3: work with sewers, so I don't know which rescue me

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Speaker 3: you mean exactly. But for example, just now on the weekend,

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Speaker 3: we rescued seventy two people actually out of distress at

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Speaker 3: sea with our ship Aurora.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about like what that rescue looks like.

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Speaker 1: I guess what happens is maybe they the aircraft spot

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Speaker 1: so the ship is in distress.

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Speaker 2: Is that right? And then your ship can respond and

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Speaker 2: go to them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. For example, there's also another organization it's called alarm Phone.

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Speaker 3: They are like a distress hotline where people in distress

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Speaker 3: at seek and call, and they are also giving them

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Speaker 3: the information to all ships in the area and of

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Speaker 3: course two authorities. So on the weekend our Aurora actually

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Speaker 3: first supported another civil search and rescue ship from Open

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Speaker 3: Arms with their rescue and then was led to this

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Speaker 3: particular distress case also with the help of our monitoring

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Speaker 3: flights operations which are called airborne and the people were

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Speaker 3: then rescued on Friday, as said seventy two people. And

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Speaker 3: then normally what you have to do is of course

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Speaker 3: informed of the competent authorities in the area, so state authorities,

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Speaker 3: and according to international law then state authorities have to

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Speaker 3: coordinate the rescue. So we of course communicated, communicated with authorities,

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Speaker 3: and authorities only after a while actually assigned us to

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Speaker 3: the port of Trapani. So Trapani is in Sicily, on

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Speaker 3: the island of Sicily, and it was much farther away

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Speaker 3: than the nearest port, which was on the island of

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Speaker 3: lamp Dous. So you have to imagine, of course, distraits

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Speaker 3: and the rescue cases are very dangerous situations and people

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Speaker 3: of course need immediate support and need immediate transfer to

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Speaker 3: the land where medical help can like intensely happen etc.

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Speaker 3: Because people might be on sea for several days, they

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Speaker 3: might be in psychological but as well in physical pain

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Speaker 3: and stress. They might have burns from actually a fuel

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Speaker 3: and sea water mixed, for example, And of course dehydration

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Speaker 3: is a very very big danger and risk for people

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Speaker 3: in distress at sea. So after we rescued and after

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Speaker 3: we got assigned the port of Trapany, we made very

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Speaker 3: clear to the authorities that Trapani is way too far

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Speaker 3: and that according to international law we need to go

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Speaker 3: to a lump producer because it's the most suitable nearest pool.

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Speaker 3: But then we got noticed that we are not allowed

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Speaker 3: to go to lumproducer actually, and that meant that we

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Speaker 3: were in total forced to stay on sea for thirty

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Speaker 3: seven hours, and also for those people in distress and rescued,

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Speaker 3: they were forced to stay more than twenty four hours

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Speaker 3: additionally on sea, like having to really door doors, really difficult,

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Speaker 3: this really difficult situation. The next day Saturday, we were

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Speaker 3: still on see the sun like really burned relentlessly by

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Speaker 3: that point, and people were facing dehydration. One person actually faded,

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Speaker 3: and it became really increasingly dangerous the situation on board,

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Speaker 3: which is why we community communicated more and more with

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Speaker 3: authorities and they were then forced after a while to

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Speaker 3: let us enter to lump producer because the situation was

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Speaker 3: really dire and people needed to disembark, disembark on land.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really good summation of like

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Speaker 1: some of the sort of like hostility you encounter from states.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that see what she's encountered, at least in

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Speaker 1: the past is either negligence or like interference by state

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Speaker 1: agencies at sea. I'm not sure if it's a navy

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Speaker 1: or the coast guard. I think it was maybe the

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Speaker 1: coast guard, the Libyan coast Guard who had interfered with

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Speaker 1: a rescue And this may have been before you started

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Speaker 1: to It's find it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the so called Libyan Coast Guard is Anya is

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Speaker 3: an actor that is really violent, violently intercepting people that

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Speaker 3: are trying to reach European shores and are also violently

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Speaker 3: interfering with rescues of civil search and rescue ships. So

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Speaker 3: we saw for example, shooting like shootings in the air,

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Speaker 3: like in the direction of our airplanes, but also in

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Speaker 3: direction of other search and rescue ships. For example, we

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Speaker 3: saw intimidations, We saw violations of international law and human

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Speaker 3: rights by the so called Libyan Coast Guard. Because what

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Speaker 3: is happening is that the European States, the European Union

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Speaker 3: is actually supporting the socoed Libyan Coast Guard to intercept

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Speaker 3: people at sea, so to really block people from getting

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Speaker 3: to the European Union.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems to be like a strategy throughout

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Speaker 1: the European Union, right. It's rather than supporting people as

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Speaker 1: they come, making this journey less dangerous, that they're trying

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Speaker 1: everything they do to keep people in North Africa to

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Speaker 1: stop them coming to Europe at all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We see this on a very practical

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Speaker 3: level in the Mediterranean Sea. But we also see this

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Speaker 3: on a political level, so with externalization policies, with deals

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Speaker 3: with Tunisia, for example, just recently there has been a

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Speaker 3: deal between the European Union and Tunisia with a lot

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Speaker 3: of money involved to actually trying to block migration again

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Speaker 3: and to increase the support for the Tunisian Coast Guard

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Speaker 3: for example. But we also see a lot of political

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Speaker 3: talks between Italy and Libya. Libya is also now a

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Speaker 3: former colony of Italy, so there's very close ties and

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Speaker 3: ties and a lot of influence. And just a couple

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Speaker 3: of days ago there was the transfer of two ships

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Speaker 3: from Italy to the so called Libyan Coast Guard. So

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Speaker 3: they really also yeah, supporting this very violent, very dangerous

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Speaker 3: actor with technical means.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And obviously, like people who listen to all our episodes

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Speaker 1: will be aware, like there's increased violence in the Sahel.

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Speaker 1: There's not a large shale protests in Syria this week,

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Speaker 1: it's not as if the people will. There will still

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Speaker 1: be dangerous situations for people to flee. And what the

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Speaker 1: EU is doing is making that dangerous journey more dangerous,

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Speaker 1: rather than sort of accepting that it's a thing that

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Speaker 1: happens to humans and trying to make it less deadly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And it's like it's a very politically induced

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Speaker 3: situation and we are like the European Union is supporting

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Speaker 3: human rights crimes, Like with the money of the European Union,

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Speaker 3: human rights crimes are actually committed. So a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks ago, we saw the quotations from Tunian authorities of

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Speaker 3: people on the move to the Tunisian Libyan border, so

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Speaker 3: to the desert, and people were actually left there to die. Literally.

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Speaker 1: Another way that you guys encountered state level hostility is

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Speaker 1: with these legal actions right that have been taken against

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Speaker 1: you against Seawatch against individuals who are part of sea watching,

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Speaker 1: against vessels that seawatch aren't. Can you explain some of those.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So for example, I mean the most recent one

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Speaker 3: with the blockade of our ship, so it's blocked like

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Speaker 3: according to state authorities because we or they claim we

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Speaker 3: violated the Italian decree that I just talked about, and

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Speaker 3: they actually said that we had to request a pot

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Speaker 3: in Tunisia and bring people back to Tunisia, which would

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Speaker 3: have been completely against international law because Tunisia cannot be

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Speaker 3: considered a safe board or a safe country of origin.

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Speaker 3: So now we are in the process of like waiting

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Speaker 3: for the Aurora actually to be de blocked again. But

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Speaker 3: also Italian authorities of course trying to criminalize person like persons.

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Speaker 3: For example, in the case of Cabula Rakta, who was

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Speaker 3: a captain with us in twenty nineteen and who who

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Speaker 3: had to enter also the port of Lamproducer because of

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Speaker 3: the very very difficult situation on board, because the ship

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Speaker 3: was forced to stay several days really on the Mediterranean

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Speaker 3: Sea and the situation became very dire. So there was

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Speaker 3: also proceedings against her in person. So really people that

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Speaker 3: are trying to show solidarity and support people on the

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Speaker 3: move to claim their human right to claim asylum are

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Speaker 3: criminalized on the basis of the accusations that are just

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Speaker 3: completely not true. A Cabula racter, for example, was also like,

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Speaker 3: all the charges against her were dismissed, there was no

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Speaker 3: legal ground for them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're harassment obviously still hinders your work, right

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Speaker 1: even if the charges are dismissed, like the time that

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Speaker 1: the ship can't go out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And it also is also a means to

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Speaker 3: like to to implement fear now in people's minds, because

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Speaker 3: of course it is super scary to be to be

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Speaker 3: accused by a state to have actually violated law and

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Speaker 3: you are facing charges of years in prison and like

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Speaker 3: only that fear can already do a lot. But we

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Speaker 3: don't only see this in Italy. We also see this

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Speaker 3: a lot in Greece, for example, a country which is

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Speaker 3: also really trying to criminalize humanitarian and political or like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: humanitarian workers that are standing in solidarity with people on

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Speaker 3: the wolf. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so people might not be as familiar with the

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Speaker 1: landscape migration, So maybe you could just explain, like where

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Speaker 1: the boats are based, because you talked about Greece, so

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Speaker 1: I know that that Maltese authorities are also like what

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Speaker 1: cases against seawatch? Can you explain the different landscape I

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Speaker 1: guess of where your boats are based and where they

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Speaker 1: tend to sort of end up relocating or taking people

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Speaker 1: to once they've been rescued.

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Speaker 3: Well, we take people who've been who's been, who've been

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Speaker 3: rescued a lot to Italy, but we're also of course

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Speaker 3: trying to coordinate with Maltese authorities who author the legal

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Speaker 3: responsibility to take people in that Maltese authorities or Malta

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Speaker 3: the state is actually really irresponsive, so we really see

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Speaker 3: as little engagement of the country as possible. We see

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Speaker 3: a lot of hindering of migration. We see very special

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Speaker 3: cases with Malta where Malta Maltese authorities are actually, for example,

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Speaker 3: communicating to merchant vessels who are finding or who are

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Speaker 3: in vicinity of distress cases that they should just hand

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Speaker 3: out fuel to the boats or hand out water. So

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Speaker 3: those distress cases, those boats are actually making their way

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Speaker 3: to Italy on their own, so they are out of

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Speaker 3: Maltese responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, so it's kind of passing the back along. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just so sad and how similar so much this

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Speaker 1: is to the way the US deals with people coming

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Speaker 1: across our land the border, which is often dear to

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Speaker 1: say they have they've built them back to Mexico, which

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Speaker 1: again is a violation of international law and it's not

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Speaker 1: a safe place. And again people in the US have

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Speaker 1: been criminalized for providing drinking water to people in the desert, right,

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Speaker 1: and even if it doesn't work, it scares people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like, definitely, it's not only a European

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Speaker 3: kind of situation. It's the situation at borders in general,

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Speaker 3: because borders are in the end an like a construct

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Speaker 3: to yeah, to safeguard in like like I don't know

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Speaker 3: how to say, like in the coordination marks, you're a parent.

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Speaker 1: Space, yes, exactly, Yeah, and to kind of yea, I know,

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Speaker 1: enforce some kind of notion who's in, who's out, and

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Speaker 1: who's the other and who's the same. I wonder one

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Speaker 1: thing that people will be wondering is obviously see watches

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Speaker 1: a large scale operation with quite substantial assets, and people

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Speaker 1: may be wondering, how you see which funded? How do

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Speaker 1: you get you know, you need experienced captains, you need

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Speaker 1: maybe people who experienced in rescue operations that see pilots.

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Speaker 2: So where do all these people come from?

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Speaker 3: Well, like they come I mean also from the general public.

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Speaker 3: We have so many volunteers that are working with us.

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Speaker 3: Really also we have people that are writing us and trying,

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Speaker 3: like trying to support, and of course like everybody can

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Speaker 3: or anyone can have a look at the website. We

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Speaker 3: have job offers on the website usually as well, and

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Speaker 3: like if you want to support, really have a look

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Speaker 3: and also try to reach out in case of any questions.

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Speaker 3: And like Seawatch and also other civil sea rescue organizations

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Speaker 3: are really sustaining themselves and are financed by donations, So

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Speaker 3: we are solely financed by donations and we are really

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Speaker 3: like trying to keep the work up as much as

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Speaker 3: much as possible. And we have lots of different opportunities

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Speaker 3: as well to support not only by working with us,

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Speaker 3: but also in spreading our message on social media. So

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Speaker 3: that's maybe the easiest for everyone who has social media accounts.

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Speaker 3: Just like search Seawatch and you'll probably find our accounts

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Speaker 3: on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, but also on TikTok

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Speaker 3: for example. Like inform yourself, educate yourself, and share the message,

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Speaker 3: talk to your families while having dinner, talk to your friends,

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Speaker 3: and also support really self organized groups of people on

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Speaker 3: the move. So for example, you can inform yourself by

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Speaker 3: finding refugees in Libya the group or refugees in Tunisia

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Speaker 3: on Twitter and they are actually talking about their situation

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Speaker 3: in the country. But also like like on on miggrassion groups.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder like talking about refugees in Tunisia and

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Speaker 1: Libya has sort of reminded me. Recently we discussed on

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Speaker 1: an episode like the presences of Wargner Group in Africa right,

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Speaker 1: specifically they've been in Libya before, they are now in

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Speaker 1: the Sahel in Central Africa Republic, in different places, and

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Speaker 1: how people have reacted very differently to presences of Wagner

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Speaker 1: Group in Ukraine to the presences of Wagner Group in Africa.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder, like, this isn't to say that people

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be construed to saying that people

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have solidarity with people fleeing contract conflict in Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: because they should and those people have every right to

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Speaker 1: a safe place too, But has there been a change

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Speaker 1: in the tone or the just the material support for

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Speaker 1: you guys, since the conflict in the Ukraine grew broader

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Speaker 1: of the Donbatson crimera into the full scale invasion.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we see like we are in a situation

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Speaker 3: of like multiple crises. Now. Of course we saw the

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Speaker 3: invasion of Russia in Ukraine, but we're also we're facing

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Speaker 3: climate change, We're facing dire economical situations, et cetera. So

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Speaker 3: also our generations went down in the in the past year, definitely,

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Speaker 3: but we are still also are so lucky to have

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Speaker 3: like a very strong solid solidary basis of people supporting us.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's like it's kind of both a

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Speaker 3: little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I always think like with respect to the solidarity,

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Speaker 1: I've never really seen like every time so that there's

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Speaker 1: a larger scale crisis at the southern border of the

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Speaker 1: United States right like recently the United States government, very

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Speaker 1: similar to what you were describing, was keeping people in

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Speaker 1: the open desert and leaving them there for days without

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Speaker 1: food or water, and hundreds of people mobilized to help them,

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Speaker 1: people who you might not expect to be particularly radical

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Speaker 1: in their politics or you know, in sort of direct

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Speaker 1: action people, but they were great and everyone helped and

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Speaker 1: answer result no one died. One young woman died in

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Speaker 1: Texas in CBP custody, And like I always think if

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Speaker 1: people could see it, then, like you were saying, they

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Speaker 1: can see your videos, people, there's a very human response

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Speaker 1: to never want that to happen to another human being.

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Speaker 1: It's just hard when there's so much going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and also it's I think it's completely understandable that we,

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Speaker 3: like not every person can concern themselves with all the topics,

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Speaker 3: all the crisis situations we're facing right now, and like

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Speaker 3: no one expects that of us, but we can expect

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Speaker 3: of states because it's stay of duty that like they

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Speaker 3: are taking care of people actually and they are really

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Speaker 3: trying to set the base for everyone to like to

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Speaker 3: claim the human rights. And it states themselves that actually

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Speaker 3: like wrote down those human rights because of a certain situation.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, especially in Europe, we really have like

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Speaker 3: we're just considering our history, is just considering the history

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Speaker 3: of Germany were just like it's it's platant ignorance and

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Speaker 3: also completely against any historical evidence, against any historical work

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Speaker 3: we've done, what the situation now is and what we're

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Speaker 3: actually doing at the external borders, like committing human rights

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Speaker 3: crimes and like ignoring the situation actually like increasing the

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Speaker 3: dangers for people on the move on daily basis. And

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Speaker 3: I think, I mean it's not only I mean you

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Speaker 3: also mentioned this before now, like it's also a situation

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Speaker 3: you're facing in the US, and we really have to

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Speaker 3: like build strong transnational movements and strong transnational ties to

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Speaker 3: like work against state violence order violence in general.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an excellent point that this is

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Speaker 1: part of a broader kind of state violence that everyone

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Speaker 1: should be opposed to, Like it hurts everyone in the end.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, as both of us being European people, we've

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Speaker 1: seen that like very obviously, but we know government seem

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Speaker 1: to have forgotten. One thing that you mentioned that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about before we finished was climate change

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Speaker 1: because you said, you know, we obviously like the it's

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Speaker 1: very hard for someone living in Europe or North America

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Speaker 1: this year to pretend that climate change isn't happening, like

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Speaker 1: with soaring temperatures, hurricane in California, wildfires everywhere. Can you

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Speaker 1: explain a little bit because I think one thing that

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Speaker 1: people fail to connect is and maybe that's largely due

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Speaker 1: to not bad reporting perhaps, but like it doesn't get

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Speaker 1: mentioned in reporting when we talk about migration, we don't

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Speaker 1: talk about climate change, and we talk about climate change

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Speaker 1: and talk about migration. But the two go hand in hand, right,

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Speaker 1: Like the people, certainly many of the people I see

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Speaker 1: our southern border coming from areas most affected by climate change?

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Speaker 1: Is that something that see what sees too like as

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Speaker 1: parts of the world that are more marginal for people

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Speaker 1: to live in get even harder to live in, those

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Speaker 1: people coming being forced to leave.

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Speaker 2: I guess well, let's.

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Speaker 3: Look at the science now and research and like, millions

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Speaker 3: and millions of people more will be possibly because of

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Speaker 3: climate change in the next in the next years. We

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Speaker 3: can't deny that fact. And we as European states and

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Speaker 3: European societies are a big part of why this is

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Speaker 3: actually happening and why climate change is increasing in the

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Speaker 3: in the speed that it is increasing right now. So

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Speaker 3: we have a huge responsibility to take care and like

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Speaker 3: to support people actually on the move. And I mean

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Speaker 3: as seawatch, we don't make any difference as of why

438
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 3: people are fleeing, people are in distress at see people

439
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: are being rescued. That's it. That's the only responsible like,

440
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: that's the only perspective we have supporting people that are

441
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: in distress at SEE, because if you are calling an ambulance,

442
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 3: they also don't ask, oh, hey, why are you actually

443
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: calling the ambulance, like did you? And why are you

444
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 3: in this situation? The ambulance is just coming. And this

445
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: is this should also be always the case in the Mediterranean.

446
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, or anywhere else people at SEE. So

447
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: I wonder, like the last couple, I think they wanted

448
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: to ask you more broad but you spoke earlier about

449
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: the rise of right wing governments and movements in Europe,

450
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: and when we obviously talk about the history of the

451
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: right wing in Europe and we think about fascism, and

452
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: I know people who listen to this podcast will be

453
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: very invested in like their their history and current struggle

454
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: of anti fascism. And would you say it was fair

455
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: it would be fair to cast what see, what she's

456
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: doing within the broader spectrum of opposing fascism or opposing

457
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 1: I guess of nationalist state violence, right wing state violence.

458
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: Absolutely, we are part of antipascious movement. We are antifascists

459
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 3: by court, so we definitely define ourselves as antifacious activists.

460
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, nice and I wonder that I think that people

461
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: want to show the solidarity you mentioned some ways. Is

462
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: there anything in particular, like I know people have contacted

463
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: me about volunteering for SEE which before en have directed

464
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: them to your website, but when we do have a

465
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: lot of listeners in Europe and they are particular things

466
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: that you're looking for in volunteers. Obviously, anyone can donate

467
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: and they should if they have money, but what are

468
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: you as are certain qualifications you desperately need or.

469
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: So I mean, we of course always looking for people

470
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: that are supporting our operations in especially on sea, but

471
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: also with our airplanes of course, So if you have

472
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 3: qualifications or other qualifications that allow you to go to

473
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: see and sale, or engineering qualifications for example, or medical

474
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: qualifications as well. We're always looking for nurses for doctors

475
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 3: supporting on the ships. Then please just like have a

476
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: look at the website and reach out. We have a

477
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: specific form as well where you can just also sign

478
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: in for interest basically, and then our crewing department takes

479
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 3: care and sees like who and like when it's actually fitting.

480
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that's great.

481
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: Please people can reach out and before we finish up,

482
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: is there anything else that you'd like to share with

483
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: people that you think we haven't got to.

484
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: I think we didn't talk about frontexts for example, or.

485
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, let's do it. Do you explain frontext to people.

486
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So FRONTICS is the European border protection agency so

487
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: called actually of course GOD and Border agency and FRONTICS

488
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 3: is also surveying and working on the Mediterranean Sea and

489
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 3: like responsible for for border protection specifically in general, or

490
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: it actually has a double mandate, so border protection on

491
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 3: the one side, but also coast guard duties Europeans on

492
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: the other side. What we criticize is of course that

493
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: FRONTEXS does so called border protection and does not actually

494
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: support people on the movement, people in distress. So this

495
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 3: double mandate does not work at all. We see a

496
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: lot of non coordination, a lot of a lot of

497
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: non information and also a lot of violence of context.

498
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: So for example, FRONTECS or there was a report from

499
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: Human Rights Watch, for example, and that fontext is complicit

500
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: in pullbacks by the so called Libyan Coast Guard because

501
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 3: there is actually communication between FONTECS and the so called

502
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: Libyan co GOD and the so called Libyan cost Guard.

503
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: Cost Guard can then detect boats in the stress their

504
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 3: location with this information but provided by FONTICS and bring

505
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 3: people or force people back to Libya for example. So

506
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: Fantacics is really an actor that we criticize hugely and

507
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: that we actually working towards their abolishment because how the

508
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 3: organization or the institution is working right now does not

509
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: have anything to do with the legal rights of people.

510
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people will.

511
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: We spoke with Ruth Kinner, who who's a professor in

512
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: love for about lifeboats in the UK, because the UK

513
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: has a notionally it has a very real distinction between

514
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: rescuing people at sea and doing border reinforcement and those

515
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: two different things. Yeah, yeah, if people like It's also

516
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: in Crop Parkins book Mutual eight, he talks about the

517
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: value of like lifeboats and volunteer organs such as your own,

518
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: that it's very foundational to people talk a lot about

519
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: mutual aid, but this is like one of the I guess,

520
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: like foundational examples of it, and so like, can you

521
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: explain what a better system? And obviously I'm not asking

522
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: you to like solve all the world's problems, but like

523
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: would what would it? We can make relatively few changes,

524
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: I guess and make this so much more humane and

525
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: not have someone's little children around in the Mediterranean. So

526
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, people don't have to live next to

527
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: someone who speaks a different language from them, or whatever

528
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: people's fears are of migrants, can you explain what that

529
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: would look like.

530
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: I mean, we need freedom of movement, that's for sure.

531
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 3: Like and this is also one of our basic demands.

532
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: We need freedom of movement for everyone. We need people

533
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 3: to have legal and safe pathways through Europe, so safe passage.

534
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: We need a system that, in accordance to the needs

535
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 3: and the wants of people, people are actually also redistributed

536
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: over the European Union and like can join the family

537
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 3: members for example, or their friends, their support systems while

538
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 3: trying to flee violence, while trying to flee from places

539
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: where they cannot live in the end, So this is

540
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: really like what we are focusing on in the end

541
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: to have people coming to Europe through safe passages. So

542
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 3: and this is really what needs to be established. And

543
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 3: of course in this current situation, as a first step,

544
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: we need a European coordinated search and rescue program with

545
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: the only mandate to rescue votes in distress, to rescue

546
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: people in distress to actually make sure that the situation,

547
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: the death trap that the Mediterranean Sea is actually constituting

548
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: at the moment, stops, Like this situation has to stop immediately.

549
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it could stop very quickly, right, the level

550
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: of resources at states have available to deploy, they could

551
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: make this go away very quickly.

552
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: I think they could if they wouldn't be a focused

553
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 3: on externalization and blocking people to come.

554
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, like, I know, when you think

555
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: about that, that's a conscious choice and the results of that,

556
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: it's very very sad. And I mean in the UK

557
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: we seem to just talk about it openly now, like

558
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: they have whole campaigns about stopping small boats. But yeah,

559
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: I think people need to realize that it's not boats

560
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: that they're stopping. It's little children that they're consigning to

561
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: risking their lives.

562
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, children, it's women, it's men, it's non binary persons,

563
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 3: it's everyone who wants to reach safety, and everyone deserves

564
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 3: to be rescued. Everyone deserves to be to live nor

565
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 3: questions asked.

566
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think that's a wonderful place to end. Actually,

567
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: I think it's a hard statement to disagree with. Can

568
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: you what are your Twitter handles where can people find

569
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: and follow seawatch Swatch group. Okay, and that's all over,

570
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: that's your U r L as well.

571
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so let me have a look. So I'm not

572
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: saying saying anything wrong, but seewatch crew so at seawatch

573
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 3: Crew on together and US and small is actually our

574
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: German account and our international account is at seawatch underline

575
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 3: into I n t L for international and then we

576
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 3: also have an Italian account for all Italian speakers.

577
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: Okay, perfect, Yeah, we'll make sure that we link to

578
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 1: those two. And thank you very much for your time

579
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: this afternoon, your time, morning, my time.

580
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for the request and for talking

581
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 3: to us.

582
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course it could happen here as a production

583
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 2: of cool Zone Media.

584
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

585
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 3: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

586
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

587
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could happen here, updated

588
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources.

589
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:00,240
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening