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Speaker 1: Y'all, we had a neighbor growing up that sometimes she

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Speaker 1: would look at my mother and just say, I've got

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Speaker 1: to take to my bed.

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Speaker 2: Because there was just something she could not deal with.

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Speaker 1: And I am sure there are a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that feel that way after today.

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid. Karen Reid, Karen Reid. We got a hung jury.

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Speaker 1: This is beyond anything that I have seen in a

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Speaker 1: long time, if ever. And we have got two folks

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Speaker 1: with us that we are so grateful to have with

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Speaker 1: us for many many reasons. The first, Joshua Schiffer, y'all

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Speaker 1: love him. He is solidly in my zone seven. He

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Speaker 1: has been a staple here for us to weave through

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Speaker 1: some insanity, and tonight ain't no different. Y'all know that

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Speaker 1: he grew up in East Cobb, graduated from the Esteem

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Speaker 1: Walker School, and then y'all, he had ig nore to

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Speaker 1: Clark University and of all places, Massachusetts, so he's got

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Speaker 1: some great insight for tonight. He also graduated from the

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Speaker 1: Georgia State University Law School, where he excelled in mock.

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Speaker 2: Trial and moot court.

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Speaker 1: He went on to clerk for Cobb Superior Court, then

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Speaker 1: became a public defender then he went up to Wyoming

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Speaker 1: and graduated from the Jerry Spence Trial Lawyers College. Then

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Speaker 1: he came back to Atlanta to honey burned this thing

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Speaker 1: down again. So y'all love him. We needing tonight more

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Speaker 1: than ever. And he has brought a friend, and I

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Speaker 1: could not be more excited. I've been a fan of

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Speaker 1: this man for a long time. He and Joshua Bows. Y'all,

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Speaker 1: the suits, the clothes are just I don't even know

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Speaker 1: a word, just beautiful, stunning. He wore recently a seersucker

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Speaker 1: that was purple. Y'all shut the front door. It's the

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Speaker 1: prettiest thing I've ever seen. I've never thought about soup

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Speaker 1: jacking somebody, but I thought, want McCallum needs to wear

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Speaker 1: that at least one time. Y'all are talking about Franz Burhart.

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Speaker 1: He is the founder of the Burhart Law Firm in Louisiana.

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Speaker 1: He is a former prosecutor of the East Baton Rouge

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Speaker 1: District Attorney's Office. He's a former public defender in the

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Speaker 1: Felony Division. He got his law degree at LSU. Come on, y'all,

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Speaker 1: you knowing from court TV. You know he's published all

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Speaker 1: kinds of things including articles on jury selection and cell

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Speaker 1: phone search and seizure. We might need to talk about

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Speaker 1: those tonight. He's also the past president of the Louisiana

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Speaker 1: Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, and some of y'all in

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Speaker 1: Louisiana might need him on speed dial. You know what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome to z OWN seven.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having us.

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Speaker 4: Franz is a man in demand, Cheryl, And you know

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Speaker 4: the reason that men like us get to wear those suits.

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Speaker 4: The best lawyers sometimes have the worst clients. And anything

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Speaker 4: we can do to get you to listen to us

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Speaker 4: rather than look at our client and what we was

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Speaker 4: talking about. Everything's part of the trial. Everything's everything the trial. Yes, yes, substance, listen.

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna take every advantage i can. The state wrote

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Speaker 4: these laws to make prosecutions effective and valid and firm.

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Speaker 4: My job in France, just like the constitution demands, we

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Speaker 4: have got to zealously represent our client. That means getting

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Speaker 4: out of the comfort zone. That means getting up in

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Speaker 4: the front of the state, agitating, using every tool and

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Speaker 4: if that requires some flashy fashion, sign me up.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And you know that jury's gonna sit there on Monday,

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Speaker 1: and you have green glasses Tuesday, blue glasses, Wednesday, red glasses.

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Speaker 1: By Thursday, there looking for you. They're talking about, Oh,

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Speaker 1: what's he gonna wear today?

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Speaker 4: Keep them engaged. One of the best things I ever learned,

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Speaker 4: and this is the lawyer a long time ago, It

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Speaker 4: is to have the stack of papers on your desk

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Speaker 4: and you just rifle through, and people want to know

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Speaker 4: what you're rifling through, and they look at you during

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Speaker 4: the trial, and then if you don't use that or

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Speaker 4: maybe pick it up and walk around, don't show them.

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Speaker 4: It's about trying to engage the brain so that they

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Speaker 4: will listen when the important works come out. Jurors have

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Speaker 4: such short attention spits. Think about read ten weeks of

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Speaker 4: going to that courthouse, ten weeks of showing up through

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Speaker 4: the protesters, walking through some witnesses that testified in ways

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Speaker 4: I've never seen before. It just when you said earlier,

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Speaker 4: this is one of the most challenging and unfortunate police

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Speaker 4: investigations you've ever seen. That's underselling it. This is just

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Speaker 4: horrific and embarrassing for the people to Commonwealth and the

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Speaker 4: O'Keefe family. It hurts to know that this is what

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Speaker 4: they got So you ever watched something again that's bad

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Speaker 4: and you didn't realize how bad it was.

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Speaker 3: Until you watch it a second or a third time.

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Speaker 3: I watch Troopa Proctor's cross examination and direct today and all.

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Speaker 4: All it gets right into the retrial. You know every

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Speaker 4: prosecutor is going to come out in a moment after

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Speaker 4: the Tray hung jury and say, I'm going to retry

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Speaker 4: it again. I'm going to retry that's because it stops

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Speaker 4: the phone calls. What the decision really is. That's not

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Speaker 4: happening today or tomorrow. There's going to be a review

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Speaker 4: for all we know. Other agencies get involved and tell

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Speaker 4: the local elected data this is what you're going to do.

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Speaker 4: But imagine reviewing all of those transcripts, all of those

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Speaker 4: video testimonies, and then setting up your questions, setting up

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Speaker 4: your cross setting up your direct. It will be ten

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Speaker 4: times more intense than it already was. And I don't

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Speaker 4: see any retrout benefiting the state more than the miss

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Speaker 4: read and her team absent some new evidence, which I

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Speaker 4: also believe there's more evidence coming. I think they're going

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Speaker 4: to try to reinvestigate something.

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Speaker 3: What's funny, is Cheryl josh in my world, if this

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Speaker 3: wasn't Karen Reid. If this was Tom or Shusy client

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Speaker 3: who's not in the news, not in the media, you

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Speaker 3: get the mistrial, you get the hung jury. You're looking

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Speaker 3: at the prosecutor, and nine times out of ten you

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Speaker 3: plead your client to some kind of sweet deal that

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Speaker 3: just makes it go away.

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Speaker 4: Disorderly conduct for time served has solved many cases in Georgia.

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Speaker 4: This would be a prime one to say. How about

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Speaker 4: a mister of the er DWI you know something ridiculously

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Speaker 4: good that at least gets a little bit of something.

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Speaker 3: But man, oh man, everybody's dug in like ticks right now,

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Speaker 3: and I don't see anybody moving.

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Speaker 1: I got to just jump in here. Anybody that doesn't

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Speaker 1: know what we're talking about. Karen Reid, her trial ended

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Speaker 1: in a hung jury. And Franz, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you saw that I put this out there, but I

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Speaker 1: know Joshua knows because I think I sent it to

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Speaker 1: him before I tweeted it. But before Proctor ever testified,

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Speaker 1: I said to me, this is Casey Anthony and Mark

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Speaker 1: Furman if they had a baby, it is Troup or Proctor.

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Speaker 1: And the reason I said that is because even what

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Speaker 1: we knew before he got on the stand his inaction

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Speaker 1: as much as his action, was going to be a

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Speaker 1: short walk for them to say, well, he planted evidence.

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Speaker 3: See you realize as a defense attorney, like on this

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Speaker 3: side of the street, I fantasizes about having a police

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Speaker 3: officer mess up this paddler, Oh, a citizen.

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Speaker 4: This is scary, terrifying. And here's what pisses me off.

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Speaker 4: I live in Georgia. I have spent my entire adult

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Speaker 4: life advocating for higher salaries for law enforcement, first responders,

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Speaker 4: and educators. That's what I believe solves the problems. We

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Speaker 4: got to pay cops and teachers and fire people. We

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Speaker 4: got to pay them so that becomes a job of aspiration,

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Speaker 4: so we get the best of the best, instead of

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Speaker 4: somebody who may not have a lot of options and

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Speaker 4: is defaulting out to a law enforcement job because it's

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Speaker 4: a legit job, true for productor makes over two hundred

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars a year. I saw some of the salary

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Speaker 4: information for some of these officers, and when I then

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Speaker 4: see their investigation, their work product, and not just any

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Speaker 4: work product, this is an officer death. I don't care

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Speaker 4: what department you work for. Everybody's hands on deck. Everybody

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Speaker 4: is doing the best work. That is a brother or

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Speaker 4: sister in blue, and I've spent my entire life he

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Speaker 4: defended people against from the police. But no one's a

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Speaker 4: bigger supporter than good police than criminal defense lawyers. Because

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Speaker 4: we've seen the bad and the bad from Trooper Proctor.

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Speaker 4: The bad from this department is indefensible, and so much

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Speaker 4: so that I feel sorry for Da Lowly, someone that

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Speaker 4: I almost never feel pitied for someone prosecuting someone. It's

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Speaker 4: a hard job, but they're hard people. I feel terrible

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Speaker 4: that Lolli had to go out there knowing what he had,

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Speaker 4: and he did a pretty good job, all things considered,

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Speaker 4: much better than a lot of other das would have done.

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Speaker 4: At least he had them thinking hard enough for a hang.

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Speaker 2: Joshua, I can't agree with you more.

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Speaker 1: I have spent my entire adult life back in the blue,

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Speaker 1: defending the blue part of the blue.

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Speaker 2: I am still an active CSI.

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Speaker 1: I just left the police department to come talk to y'all,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I got a real nasty note from

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Speaker 1: somebody that I've known a long time, and they were like,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you're not back in law enforcement on

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Speaker 1: this thing, and I said, you know what, I am

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Speaker 1: back in law enforcement on this thing. I'm back in

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Speaker 1: John o'keeth, a police officer that lost his life, and

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Speaker 1: we were told for two years it's a murder case.

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Speaker 1: It's a murder case. I waited two weeks, three weeks,

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Speaker 1: seven weeks.

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Speaker 2: Where where is the murder? The first in Franz.

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Speaker 1: I want you and Joshua both to speak to this

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Speaker 1: because I'm not an attorney, but I've seen some real

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Speaker 1: good ones, and I've seen people get prepped. I've been

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Speaker 1: prepped myself before I testify, and I'm telling you the

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Speaker 1: first four people that testified, I kept having to remind myself,

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Speaker 1: these are the prosecution witnesses.

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Speaker 4: I just preach.

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Speaker 3: I got to tell you this was a case that,

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Speaker 3: looking from the outside end before the trial started, I

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Speaker 3: was excited about some of the forensics that I thought

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Speaker 3: was coming down the pipe. I was excited about, okay,

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Speaker 3: trying to visualize, like how did this accident happen? And

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Speaker 3: I kept looking for really good demonstrative evidence. I kept

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Speaker 3: looking for experts that were commanding and look, I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to sit here and say that all the Commonwealth

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Speaker 3: witnesses were poor witness some of them were outstanding, but man,

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Speaker 3: oh man, it was just like like, and here's the

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Speaker 3: other thing. We had a biomechanics expert for the defense.

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Speaker 3: We're not talking about that, dude, We're talking about Proctor.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: I mean That's what's crazy to me is it's like

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Speaker 3: there was so many crazy facets of this case that

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Speaker 3: if you just wanted to stay and look chery while

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Speaker 3: I'm on the horse and then I'll get off of it.

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Speaker 3: I have argued transferred DNA all by life and I

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Speaker 3: had I'm reading Karen Reid supporters argue transferred DNA like

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Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, of course that's how the air got there.

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Speaker 3: It's no big deal. I mean, I mean that's her,

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Speaker 3: it's girlfriend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And break it down from the start, going back to

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Speaker 5: what Cheryl said about the beginning of the case. From

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Speaker 5: the absolute beginning, I was given all the litigators the

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Speaker 5: most credit possible, including the defense. When they tied themselves

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Speaker 5: to a conspiracy theory, that was great, but now certainly

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Speaker 5: a little bit unnecessary to be so have so much

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Speaker 5: fidelity to that conspiracy theory rather than focusing, say on

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Speaker 5: insufficient investigation, which I think might have been a stronger

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Speaker 5: in retrospect line to go with. But then the state

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Speaker 5: never launched. They never left orbit, they never got the

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Speaker 5: case off the ground. The opening it was a little slow,

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Speaker 5: and I figured the state's going to take the slow

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Speaker 5: route on this one because of so many witnesses, and

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Speaker 5: they're going to close so strong. But those first four

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Speaker 5: witnesses with it, there was nothing out there grabbing the attention.

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Speaker 5: They all got eviscerated on cross exam. And then when

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Speaker 5: we were waiting, and I'm telling everybody, just wait, Lolly

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Speaker 5: didn't go this far to open up the box at

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Speaker 5: the end and show you it's empty, but he did.

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Speaker 5: I wanted the witness that came out and was like, boom,

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Speaker 5: here's why we were so RelA, here's why we didn't

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Speaker 5: have to go supercer And it never happened for me.

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Speaker 4: So it was an interesting wave of emotions watching the

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Speaker 4: trial unfold, Josh. Watching that Neb the last Commonwealth witness

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Speaker 4: was like listening to a symphony and the last note

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Speaker 4: was like an attitude trumpet. Even if they would have

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Speaker 4: switched medical examiner witnesses and let the dude the lady

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Speaker 4: with the.

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Speaker 2: Tats, I love her, love, love her, She was fantastic.

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Speaker 3: That's the one I would have ended my case on.

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Speaker 3: And I get it.

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Speaker 2: I get it with that.

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Speaker 3: In the Man, Old Man, What planet was she on?

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Speaker 4: And the recency issue. We pound this to every lawyer

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Speaker 4: I've ever trained. When you're dealing with Jerry's first thing,

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Speaker 4: last thing, those are the two most important that you

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Speaker 4: could talk all kinds of crazy stuff in the middle.

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Speaker 4: They probably aren't as attached to that. The first thing

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Speaker 4: out of their mouth, they're gonna remember, the last thing

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Speaker 4: they're gonna remember. And they needed to drop the hammer

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Speaker 4: with the last witness, knowing that the defense was rare

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Speaker 4: and to go, and they just didn't. It was so

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Speaker 4: disappointing to see such an important case not yet tried

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Speaker 4: the way that I think many other people would have

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Speaker 4: tried it. But I think that's due to the cards

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Speaker 4: LOLLI was.

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Speaker 1: Built, Joshua, I can't agree more.

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Speaker 2: And something that Fruen's already hit on.

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Speaker 3: Two.

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Speaker 2: This was the show.

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Speaker 1: This was the made for tea waiting to happen, and

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Speaker 1: everybody was waiting for those moments where you go, now,

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Speaker 1: I get it now, I see now the dots are

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Speaker 1: being connected and Franz, I want you to speak a

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Speaker 1: little bit, because you said you just recently rewatched Proctor's testimony,

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Speaker 1: and I got to say something before you say a word.

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Speaker 1: I have told every single law enforcement friend that I

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Speaker 1: have that his testimony needs to be shown at every

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Speaker 1: single police academy across the United States. Because I've got

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of folks that think, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: my personal phone. I can talk like I won't. I

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Speaker 1: can send what I want. Okay, good luck to you,

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Speaker 1: because when you have to testify from it, buddy.

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Speaker 3: You think about the fact that the puerile, immature text

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Speaker 3: messages about her, about her lack of ass about about

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Speaker 3: all this stuff that has nothing to do with any right. Initially,

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Speaker 3: as a former prosecutor job, I'm sitting there thinking, I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: how do I lean into this? When I lean into

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Speaker 3: it by putting him on as my first witness, sacrificial lamb,

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Speaker 3: and then showing the rest of the case, how look

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Speaker 3: as bad as he is that did not take the

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Speaker 3: rest of the investigation, or do I do what Lolly

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Speaker 3: did and wait until the end. I don't know that

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Speaker 3: there is a good play on this. I will say

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Speaker 3: that hearing it a second time. Hearing the third time,

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Speaker 3: I went from a position of Okay, well what I

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Speaker 3: started Cheryl, I started with, Okay, this really has nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with the elements the facts. But by the

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Speaker 3: second or third time I listen, I'm like, this guy

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Speaker 3: just doesn't care. And I absolutely while I don't believe

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Speaker 3: the conspiracy man oh man, did he miss opportunities? And

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Speaker 3: then you start thinking about red solo cups And then

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Speaker 3: you start thinking about all the stuff that wasn't done,

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Speaker 3: and you're like, well, I mean if you maybe, if

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Speaker 3: you would have spent a little bit less time texting

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Speaker 3: and a little bit more time doing detecting, maybe we'd

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Speaker 3: be in a different common situation. So yeah, I just.

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Speaker 1: Oh, listen, y'all. Mark Furman used one word that was

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Speaker 1: exploited to the point the jury could not believe that

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Speaker 1: he didn't plant that glove. This guy talks about hope

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Speaker 1: he kills herself. Surely there's one person on that jury

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Speaker 1: that has had suicide enter their family. Then he talks

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Speaker 1: about I'm looking for nudes. Okay, that's a little out

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Speaker 1: of bounds. Then he goes to the C word. Then

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Speaker 1: he calls her a whack job.

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Speaker 2: I mean he goes.

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Speaker 1: Own and own, then he talks about her medical history.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's a lot to forgive.

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Speaker 4: It was just like, here's the thing I can excuse

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Speaker 4: and apologize professionally. I've been doing it for my old

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Speaker 4: personal life as well as my professional and I'm real

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Speaker 4: good at When you got someone like Proctor, you gotta

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Speaker 4: do what Franz just talked about. Rip that band aid

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Speaker 4: off early, eat the bad facts. You gotta because otherwise

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Speaker 4: dancing around him basically points at your weakness. If you're

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Speaker 4: the Commonwealth. Lollie had this giant bomb, which was his

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Speaker 4: key witness, but a key witness that had flaws upon

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Speaker 4: flaws upon flaws. You've got to get the value out

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Speaker 4: of him because of his role. But at the same time,

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Speaker 4: you can't as a prosecutor stand by and try to

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Speaker 4: temper or excuse or push to the side stuff that

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Speaker 4: is universally going to be looked poorly at.

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Speaker 3: Josh, I'm sorry. I kept waiting for Alan Jackson to

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Speaker 3: ask him. You know you keep saying you're sorry. Are

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Speaker 3: you really sorry? You got caught?

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Speaker 4: The defense attorney Fantasyland is huge when we see a

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Speaker 4: witness like that, because there are so many of those

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Speaker 4: alleged gotcha questions which aren't gotcha questions. There's questions asking

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Speaker 4: you how you really are, making you confirm what you've

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Speaker 4: already done. This case got broken from the very first

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Speaker 4: minute the trooper Proctor got involved, and it was just

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Speaker 4: clear to everyone that he didn't do a good job,

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Speaker 4: and it would have behooved him to have stood up

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Speaker 4: in this direct and cross examination and eat some of

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Speaker 4: those bad facts. I've had officers do that to some degree,

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Speaker 4: and it's been something the state can recover from, but

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Speaker 4: a good defense attorney is going to obviously exploit it.

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Speaker 4: So therefore the Commonwealth needed to get out in front

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Speaker 4: with not just Procter, but a couple of these other

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Speaker 4: witnesses and eat those bad facts so that they're put away,

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Speaker 4: they're disposed of and mitigated, and the jury can then

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Speaker 4: concentrate on the good facts that can come forward to.

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Speaker 3: Move your case.

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Speaker 4: And the kum we had a lot of really good facts.

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Speaker 4: Let's not forget if you take out the fact that

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Speaker 4: this was such a high prominence case, the common Wealth

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Speaker 4: really did have pretty good facts for a lot of charges,

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Speaker 4: just not what they went for.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I hear you Josh about you got

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Speaker 1: to eat those bad facts.

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Speaker 2: But honey, that was a buffet.

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Speaker 4: Oh oh yeah, you'd be fat at the table at

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Speaker 4: the end of that because you're also feeding every time

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Speaker 4: you've got to do that, you're feeding the defense. You're

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Speaker 4: you're writing the cross exam for whoever's going to get

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Speaker 4: up and make you repeat all that bad stuff. But

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Speaker 4: you gotta because otherwise you can't carry your burden. Reasonable

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Speaker 4: doubt is I didn't trust that cop. That's reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 4: And again with the problem, my problem with defense and

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Speaker 4: tying themselves to this conspiracy, which you know couldn't have

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Speaker 4: had absolutely, Man, I spent lotside Massachusetts. I could absolutely

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Speaker 4: see a off the record personal conversation happening that's spun

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Speaker 4: out of control and ended up with a dead John o'keithan.

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Speaker 4: That is entirely within the realm of what I can believe.

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Speaker 4: But there was no reason to tie themselves to it.

359
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Speaker 4: It could be a possibility, and you could you could

360
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Speaker 4: still continue with just the flat out arable investigation.

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Speaker 2: All right, Frunz jump in.

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Speaker 3: So think about the ripple effect of Proctor in the

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Speaker 3: sense of I had never had a case where there

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Speaker 3: were three to four independent witnesses that testify to an

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Speaker 3: admission made by my client. I hit him, I hit him,

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Speaker 3: I hit it. We have at least three witnesses. Now, look,

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Speaker 3: let's just put the conspiracy they she never made that

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Speaker 3: comment to the sign for a second, had seld what

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Speaker 3: Proctor did and didn't do. The common sentiment for most people,

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Speaker 3: which probably was the jury as well, was what was

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Speaker 3: that in any reports? I mean, wouldn't they have put

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Speaker 3: that in a report? And I gotta tell you, I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I've ever heard people take my client's words that are

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Speaker 3: like horrible missions and just say, no, didn't happen. I'm

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Speaker 3: seen over here like this doesn't Cheryl. I want your

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Speaker 3: listeners to know this kind of perfect.

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Speaker 2: Stamp for a defense doesn't happen all ever ever.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I even said to folks, you know,

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Speaker 1: they came at me and they were like, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you're only upset because the way Proctor behaved.

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Speaker 2: I said, let me tell you something.

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Speaker 1: You can take his behavior, his text messages, his words

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Speaker 1: completely out of the scenario. When you talk about are

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Speaker 1: they going to retry the Commonwealth's case, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to get any stronger. First of all,

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Speaker 1: if Proctor worked for my department, he would be fired

387
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Speaker 1: for conduct unbecoming. So your case is not going to

388
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Speaker 1: get stronger. Now your lead investigator has been fired, and

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Speaker 1: I just won't dash gall a couple other things. We

390
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Speaker 1: are trained and taught. If it's not the report, if

391
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Speaker 1: it ain't wrote down, it didn't happen. It didn't have

392
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Speaker 1: the question, It didn't happen. So you can now testify

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Speaker 1: to that absolutely. And here's the other question. Did she

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Speaker 1: say I hit him?

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Speaker 2: I hit him?

396
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Speaker 1: Or did somebody say, hey, could she have hit him?

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Speaker 1: And she go did I hit him? Like a question

398
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Speaker 1: like are you kidding?

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Speaker 4: We don't know.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't written down, so you can't tell me now.

401
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Speaker 3: It is such a huge, fat, huge fat no, Josh,

402
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Speaker 3: Your absolutely right. There's no reason that isn't in a.

403
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Speaker 1: Report, no reason it's any excusable you think about.

404
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Speaker 4: So as much as jurors want to do the right thing,

405
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Speaker 4: jurors get frustrated. Jurors get angry, and you can turn

406
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Speaker 4: a juror. You can appeal to their frustration and anger

407
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Speaker 4: about being citizens that paid for this, and by pointing

408
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Speaker 4: out such utter failure to meet even the most basic standard.

409
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Speaker 4: Sign me a cop, that's to support that, find me

410
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 4: antiosics that was a good jug. No, it just didn't happen.

411
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Speaker 4: And there are jurys that will punish and Cheryl, you

412
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Speaker 4: can talk about this. Police officers are held to a

413
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Speaker 4: standard that is sometimes unfair, but it's because of the

414
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Speaker 4: obligations that they've accepted to serve and protect. And it

415
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Speaker 4: cuts both ways. I know that jurors eat out of

416
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Speaker 4: the palms. If you're wearing a badge in a uniform,

417
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 4: they love it. But at the same time, if they

418
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Speaker 4: can show that you are not being a good cop,

419
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Speaker 4: whoa the citicism and anger, especially over the last ten

420
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Speaker 4: to fifteen years when the nation's eating of law enforcements

421
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Speaker 4: changed so dramatically, that is an opportunity. It's mind blown.

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Speaker 1: I told them take his behavior out. There's no chain

423
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Speaker 1: of custody. The time is wrong on the warrant. He

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Speaker 1: serves the phone before he got a warrant or said

425
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Speaker 1: he did, which is just as bad. He didn't go

426
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Speaker 1: to the crime scene. When has that ever occurred in

427
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Speaker 1: human history? That makes no sense to me. Didn't interview

428
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Speaker 1: all the witnesses, never went into the house. The medical

429
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Speaker 1: examiner said it was undetermined, and you kept right on

430
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Speaker 1: with your homicide investigation. Missing video, didn't record the interviews,

431
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: didn't collect all the cell phones.

432
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Speaker 2: The accident a reconstruction is. Didn't know where the body was.

433
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: So now you're telling me, y'all didn't mark the body

434
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: with a pole, You didn't have it where you knew

435
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: exactly where that man lay and took his final breath.

436
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: You don't know that, And again this goes on and

437
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: own and own.

438
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 5: Meanwhile, I'm sitting here in Atlanta with the y s

439
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 5: ol case where they taped every minute of everything for

440
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 5: a hider. They're taking two weeks just to review videos,

441
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 5: and here is Massachusetts feel like, yeah, we all keep

442
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 5: having ayeah, we did do that.

443
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 4: And it's fought, and you just it blows my mind

444
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 4: that someone would turn that in as work.

445
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: You have missing video on a police officer's murder.

446
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 4: It's something. This isn't my dope dealing guy that's been

447
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 4: a wret.

448
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 2: This is a cop.

449
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: This is a Boston cop, for God's sakes.

450
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: So this is the perfect storm. Though. You have a

451
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: crime that could literally happen to any of us, any

452
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: of us. So this is the most bizarre part about

453
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: this case for me is I have confidence that a

454
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 3: lot of normal people in Canton probably don't have a

455
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 3: lot in common with Karen Read. However, all of a sudden,

456
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 3: they went from maybe I don't really have that much

457
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 3: in common with Karen Read to if they would do

458
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: this to this individual, all of a sudden, maybe they

459
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: would do it to me and I could do care

460
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 3: and read. That is what I love about this case.

461
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 3: What I love about this case is is you have

462
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 3: a non violent like there were no talking about a

463
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 3: robbery or drug deal gone bad. This is that crime

464
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 3: where this literally could happen to anybody that had too

465
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 3: many drinks and just did something stupid. Right, nobody thought,

466
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I looked at the definition of malice from Massachusetts.

467
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: I don't even know what malice means, but nobody thought

468
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 3: she wanted to do it and intentionally did it. Are

469
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: many if you did? They certainly clearly didn't prove that.

470
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: But like, man, this is the case where if you're sure, you're,

471
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, like man, oh man, if the

472
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: police are doing this to this this lady, they're gonna

473
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: do it to me too. Like and normally and I'm

474
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: from what, guys, I'm from a high crime South Louisiana town.

475
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 3: Only a higher crime is New Orleans, Natalie. Most jurors

476
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 3: in my jurisdiction have this attitude of well, sometimes ends

477
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: justify the means, yeah, that's out the window.

478
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 4: In this case, I'll criticize the defense here a little

479
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 4: bit because the stuff that Franz is talking about can

480
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 4: be exploited by the defense had it been presented a

481
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: little bit differently by going with this conspiracy and with

482
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 4: the time restraints of the hour closing, which I know

483
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 4: people are flipping out about, but guess what if you're

484
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 4: flipping out about an hour closing, you just don't go

485
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 4: to federal court very often. There were so many other

486
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 4: things that a other defense attorneys could have done to

487
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 4: crank down on the sufficiency that unfortunately didn't happen here.

488
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 4: But that also means they're reserved for the retrial, if

489
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 4: there is one, and I think that the retrial defense

490
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 4: is dramatically different than the initial defense.

491
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 3: So here's my question for you to you guys, and

492
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 3: I know you both watched the troll follow the trial.

493
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 3: Were fans of the trial? Karen Reid, have Alan Jackson

494
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: on round two.

495
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: I say yes, and I will tell you why I

496
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: say yes. I think there is a made for TV

497
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: movie coming and he wants to be.

498
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: A part of it.

499
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 4: I'm going to take the absolute office and with all

500
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 4: incredible respect, and there is a movie coming. There's actually

501
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 4: more than one. I've had it on some pretty good

502
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 4: authority that multiple groups are approaching different people for different

503
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 4: perspectives on this, and it would be ridiculous to think

504
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 4: that this isn't going to be turned into some sort

505
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 4: of serialized drama. I believe Alan Jackson walks away with

506
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 4: a big w because guess who's not convicted Karen Reid,

507
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 4: and he did his job, and he he didn't end

508
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 4: the case, but it is mortally wounded, and whoever's going

509
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 4: to pick it up has a very challenging job from

510
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 4: the Commonwealth. The defense is set up now by not

511
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 4: being the lawyer in the second case, which he gets

512
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 4: to say, I've got lots of other cases. The man

513
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 4: is in tremendous demand. I guarantee his prices have gone up.

514
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: He gets to walk away having laid a really good foundation,

515
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 4: with a clean face and the ability to say I'm

516
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 4: two jammed up I can't continue on this case because

517
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 4: I've got other obligations that were in probably you know,

518
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 4: in the shoot before. And it's a win win because

519
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 4: Karen is going to get solicited by every moderate to

520
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 4: high dollar criminal defense attorney east of the Mississippi to

521
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 4: assist on the next case. And I know some of

522
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 4: the most famous lawyers in the nation that regularly do

523
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 4: high profile cases for little or no pay simply because

524
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 4: the benefits come later. I will be surprised at all

525
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 4: to see one of them take the lead.

526
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: You're probably absolutely right, But I guess what I was thinking.

527
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: You know that film crew that has been following her,

528
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: like she's allowed it. I thought maybe they've already cut

529
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: a deal. So I thought maybe he was going to

530
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: get a percentage or something, or they all get a bonus.

531
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,239
Speaker 4: They already have. Yeah, there are multiple deals that are

532
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 4: already being struck with people.

533
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: So if he walks away, I think he has to

534
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: have a reason for Optics to walk away, like hey,

535
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: I want to spend some more time with my family,

536
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: or hey it's not there to all my other clients.

537
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: I love Karen, but you know, maybe maybe a second

538
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: set of eyes is what she needs. You know, I

539
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: don't know how he would walk away. I mean candidly, candidly.

540
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: First of all, I thoroughly enjoyed watching Alan Jackson try

541
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: the case. Second of all, I do worry about the

542
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: financial bandwidth of Karen Reid to be able to afford

543
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: him a second round. Now, I do think in a

544
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 3: way that is unprecedented. I do think that she is

545
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 3: crowdchourcing her defense. I would be very interested to see

546
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: how much money she has raised for that, and I

547
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: know that they are working on that right now. As

548
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: the verdict came out the students didn't come out for

549
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 3: that matter, and the mistrial was declared, I know they

550
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: were already trying to raise money for her defense.

551
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: Now, Frunds, I'm gonna tell you, I have spent seven weeks.

552
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: Everybody's split, nobody can agree, and Dad, gummt you just

553
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: you just gave us a question, and now we're split again.

554
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 3: Well, and so I guess for me. I guess for

555
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 3: me is so for me, he's an alluse lose situation.

556
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: I get that part. So, yes, it favors the defense,

557
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 3: A retrial favors the defense, and I certainly would say

558
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: he could do it. But he's an illusive situation. If

559
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: he loses the second trial, nobody's gonna remember the mistrial,

560
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 3: hung Dirck josh Am, I wrong.

561
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 4: No, you're absolutely correct. History is very kind to the

562
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 4: people that prevailed. And I don't think that there's really

563
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 4: too much risk for Jackson to do exactly what you're

564
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 4: talking about and take the high road out. The financial

565
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 4: is a big deal. She is obviously making or trying

566
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 4: to gather funds. This is an outrageously expensive proposition, which

567
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 4: I want everybody to think about. How would you deal

568
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 4: with this? What would you have to sell? That's what

569
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 4: really people facing Bet the Farm litigation. That's the conversation

570
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 4: that drives choices more than anybody wants to talk about,

571
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 4: and I talk about it with my clients. We can

572
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 4: do a defense, but you have unlimited ability to gold

573
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 4: plate it. I don't take a cut of experts, and

574
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: neither does any good lawyer, but I've got hundreds of them.

575
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 4: You want me to bring in experts left, right and center,

576
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 4: I will. You want me to send investigators till they

577
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 4: can tell you every single yep we got it doesn't

578
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 4: mean you win the case. And it gets very expensive,

579
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 4: very quickly. Easily a retrials a million dollar case plus before.

580
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: We leave the topic, I think he comes back. But

581
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 3: I think he comes back, and you're gonna see another

582
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 3: face with a strong personality, which I know doesn't normal.

583
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: So normally, normally, Jerry Spence, we don't. We don't want

584
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of cheeks, right Like there's there's one

585
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 3: person driving the train, and you know, I just I

586
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: just think that she's gonna have so many people coming

587
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: after her that are high profile, high dollar, really good

588
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 3: criminal defense attorneys. You know, maybe he can he can

589
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 3: step away from it, and and and you know, and

590
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: again we'll circle. This is a case that normally, most

591
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 3: of us, Josh and I in normal world would resolve

592
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 3: this and it would never be tried again to be

593
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 3: a plea. And by the way, this is the best part.

594
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 3: It could be a plea like like staircase. It could

595
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 3: be a plea where she goes, I didn't do this.

596
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 3: This is best interest. But I'd be a fool to

597
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: just resolve it with this lower level crime.

598
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 4: And the government's really good at that. People walk into

599
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 4: your office, I'm going to trial, I'm going to truck Okay,

600
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 4: that's good. Yeah, we're going to truck full. Oh you

601
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 4: mean they're going to offer that. The decision time is

602
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 4: very different from the entry time when you're dealing with

603
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: criminal law. When you are facing well, trials in three days,

604
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 4: trials in a week. This is your final plea date.

605
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 4: You change your calculus. Your math gets very real once

606
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 4: you've worn handcuffs. And if I'm offering you a yeah,

607
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 4: it sucks, but it's done, and it's way better than

608
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 4: assuming the risk of what's going on, and that risk

609
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 4: assessment calculation is what really drives trials. That is where

610
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 4: the rubber.

611
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 3: Meets the road.

612
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 4: And if you're looking at life without parole, or life

613
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 4: or forty years mandatory, anging like that, and I'm offering

614
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 4: you a couple of years in some probation, man Alfred,

615
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 4: please exist for a reason. Anybody think that that this

616
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 4: system is fair and perfect? Heck no, no one believes that. Fairs,

617
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 4: As my partner says, fars have games and rides and

618
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 4: animals and tickets and cotton candy. There ain't no fares

619
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: when you go to court. Yep.

620
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 1: And I will piggyback on what you're saying. Nothing makes

621
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: somebody more agreeable than putting handcuffs on them.

622
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 4: You go, yeah, and it really is an amendment to

623
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 4: your brain. Most adults in America have never been restrained,

624
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 4: have never had the full weight of the states that Nope,

625
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 4: you're not doing that. That changes especially look at where

626
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 4: Karen Reid comes from. An upstanding, upper middle upper income family,

627
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 4: lots of professionals. Obviously, the dad's a big wig. She's

628
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 4: got a good job and operates in this world of

629
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 4: high finance. I was married to a woman for twenty

630
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 4: years that lived in that universe. It doesn't relate to

631
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 4: the day to day life of most people being incarcerated.

632
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 4: Having that threat. Wow, what a game changer for someone

633
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 4: in Karen Reid's position.

634
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: I got a question for both of you because I

635
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: never really saw this exploited and I was kind of

636
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: waiting for it.

637
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: They made a.

638
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: Big deal that Trooper Proctor was done with his investigation

639
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: and satisfied within sixteen hours. Would j'all not want to

640
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: know a breakdown of what he did because he didn't

641
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: go to the scene. Yeah, he went to the hospital,

642
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: Then he supposedly went to the autopsy.

643
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: What else did he do?

644
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 4: Again? It was the focus on the conspiracy theory that

645
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 4: pushed those inquiries to the side because, in my opinion,

646
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 4: the defense wanted to really stay on message. They created

647
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 4: themselves a burden and they needed to carry it. That

648
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 4: meant that other parts of a normal care got completely ignored,

649
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 4: especially that sufficiency stuff.

650
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: But wouldn't y'all want to know it? Both of you?

651
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 3: Yes, But here's the kicker. I think people wanted there

652
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: to be a conspiracy. I think trial consultant and everybody

653
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: analyzing and picking apart this case for the defense on

654
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 3: round two, most people are going to say you had

655
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 3: a shotgun, reasonable doubt opportunity that you blushed because you

656
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 3: went after the conspiracy. And I think behind the scenes,

657
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 3: Cheryl and Josh, the fight behind the scenes on round

658
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: two is going to be the conspiracy not being the

659
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 3: focal point of the defense. M H.

660
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 4: I think that's definitely reasonable. And I can see the

661
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 4: state using the conspiracy questions, using the cross examinations and

662
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 4: the direct examinations, showing how much belief and burden the

663
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 4: defense created to basically bludgeon Karen read in a second

664
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 4: go round, because if more investigations in recasting the testimony

665
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 4: and working on the impeachment and figuring out what the

666
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 4: state's theory. With a new jury, they're going to be

667
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 4: able to question folks on this unproven, uncarried conspiracy theory

668
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 4: that let's just face it. Sure it makes good copy,

669
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 4: it's a great idea, but no one actually really produced

670
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 4: a lot of proof of a conspiracy theory. It was

671
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 4: all conjecture in the end.

672
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: But when you do half ast job, that's what you

673
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: were giving them is a conspiracy. So again when people hear, oh,

674
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: they gave that dog away and they put in new flooring,

675
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: and then they sold the house, and they got rid

676
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: of their cell phones and simcards, and then all.

677
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: The calls they supposedly made were button dials.

678
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: And then things are missing from the report and there's

679
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: missing video, and there's no chain of custody.

680
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: Well go the lord stop.

681
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: Of course there's going to be a conspiracy.

682
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,479
Speaker 3: The conspiracy theory didn't work. I argue it didn't work

683
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 3: because it was a hung jury. Whip saw that. The

684
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 3: fits attorney be is like, no, it did work, and

685
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 3: it was a hung jury.

686
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: That's how I say it.

687
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: It worked because every time you thought here it comes here,

688
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: it comes the murder. We're finally going to see these

689
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 1: elements presented, it wasn't there. And then the two shine

690
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: in stars, the last two men that spoke, who could

691
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: say they're not credible. I mean when you put a

692
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: man up and say I had a one hundred and

693
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,959
Speaker 1: sixty hour course at the police Academy versus this man

694
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: that told his education for eleven and a half minutes,

695
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: that's not even fair.

696
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: That's not even close.

697
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: So there's another tactical decision that as a prosecutor I

698
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 3: would struggle with, which is do you put those two

699
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: X on in your case in chi as adverse witnesses

700
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 3: because Lally's tactical approach with them were for both of

701
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 3: them was well, you didn't have all the puzzle pieces,

702
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 3: you didn't have all the data to make your decision delegitimize. Yeah,

703
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 3: if you put them on and deflate them as much

704
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: as you can, which Cheryl, I hear you. There's not

705
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,479
Speaker 3: a lot of deflight and you go to go on, right,

706
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: but do you at least like I'm just sitting back

707
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: and again, it's easy for me to armchair right, it's easy.

708
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: It's easy. For the limited number of jury trials I

709
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 3: had as a prosecutor, I never had this cluster. I

710
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: never had this cluster. In fact, God's on its truth.

711
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 4: Guys.

712
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 3: Most of the trials I tried to juries as a prosecutor,

713
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 3: they were air tight. I had good police fork, I

714
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: had good forensic I had good confessions or admissions.

715
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: Candidly, I wouldn't have tried.

716
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: This as a prosecutor. And my boss was like, you're trying.

717
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 4: That's kind of what I imagine happened in the background

718
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 4: as Lolly gets all these cases and goes, what's this?

719
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 4: Oh no, man, I want I'm sorry, you're gonna try

720
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 4: this case. This is the case that you're gonna bring,

721
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 4: and yet it's not perfect, and you're gonna do a

722
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 4: yeoman's labor and it is what it is. Because prosecutors

723
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 4: take losses personally, but they also know that they don't

724
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 4: get to choose the case. Just like a lot of

725
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: public defenders. You get emotionally involved. Guess what, you didn't

726
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 4: choose this. This case was as signed to you, and

727
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 4: you did your job to the best of your professional efforts,

728
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 4: and you got to sleep with yourself if you feel

729
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 4: that you failed in some way. But I don't think

730
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 4: Lolly struggles sleeping after this. He did the job that

731
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 4: he thought was the best available with the facts that

732
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 4: he had, and it didn't work, and the defense did

733
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 4: a really good job creating this alternate that hung the jerk.

734
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 4: What I think happens in the next trial, though, is

735
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 4: they hunt down a lot of these conspiracy issue items

736
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 4: and then reverse it on the defense. The dog, all right,

737
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 4: dog can be found? The universe is like, no, this

738
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 4: is where the dock go get the bide marks or

739
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 4: were there bide marks that were then decided not to

740
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 4: be used, not just for the state, for the defense.

741
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 4: If I'm the defense and I see as I'm gonna

742
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 4: where a dog, dog dog, you hunt that down and

743
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 4: you go find the dog and get some dental records

744
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: from the vet. You go find the dog and get

745
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 4: some castings that, if it happened, never got into court.

746
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 4: Why the issues with some of the tracking of the vehicles,

747
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 4: some of the video. Now that it's been exposed, you

748
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 4: get to go back and really drill down on the O, why, where,

749
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 4: and how of how that evidence manifested in front of

750
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 4: the jury, and then develop it so that it benefits

751
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 4: your case. Many of the states leaky olds in a retrial,

752
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 4: get pluck.

753
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: I tell rookies and young detectives all the time. Juris

754
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: watch TV, So you better do something that they're going

755
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: to recognize. Don't go out there and say, well, you

756
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: can't get a fingerprint off of brick, so let's just

757
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: move on. You better do something to that brick. You

758
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: can swap it for DNA, you can do something. And

759
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 1: in this case, again whether it was a police officer

760
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: or not, I did not see the care and concern

761
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: that should have been taken at that scene. I didn't

762
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: see the due diligence at all. And that was so

763
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: disheartening for me, for the O'Keefe family that I couldn't

764
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: hardly even concentrate on anything else.

765
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 4: You had one job get screamed in my office more

766
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 4: than any other phrase. And it doesn't matter. It's the

767
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 4: overright delivery person who doesn't deliver, doesn't matter, if it

768
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 4: is an investigator, doesn't matter, if it's prosecuted. We see

769
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 4: it all the time. And that's the highlight with law

770
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 4: enforcement in this game. You had one job go do

771
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 4: a sufficient investigation, and that was failed and failed more,

772
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 4: and then it was presented and it failed even harder,

773
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 4: and it is a ridiculous embarrassment and it's a disgrace

774
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 4: to John o'peith that this is the justice that he's getting,

775
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 4: because it's not full and fulsome it is not the

776
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 4: justice that Karen Reed deserves because this case was presented

777
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 4: against her in a way that is almost disingenuous. It

778
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: was so poor. According to basically every lawyer that I've

779
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,479
Speaker 4: spoken to, you had one job, and I really hope,

780
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 4: like you said, Cheryl, this gets share becomes a learning moment.

781
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 3: This for me, Cheryl was a red solo cult case,

782
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: and I taught a forensic plan before and actually during

783
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 3: the trial to a bunch of forensic scientists on best

784
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 3: practices for testimony in Louisiana, and we were talking about

785
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 3: this case.

786
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 4: As a.

787
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 3: Teaching moment, if you will, and one of the students

788
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 3: pulled out a red solo cup and put it in

789
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 3: front of me and said, how would you work with this?

790
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 3: And I just looked at her like I was like,

791
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 3: you know, And it goes back to what Josh said

792
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 3: is half ass action yields half assed results, and it's not.

793
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 3: I mean, it affects credibility. It has a ripple effect.

794
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 3: And look at the end of the day, whether or

795
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: not she hit Okeeth or not, whether or not she

796
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 3: really is quote unquote innocent or not. That got lost

797
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 3: way early on, and it got so lost the victim

798
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 3: got lost and looked, guys, this is a case where

799
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 3: you had hundreds of people outside of the courthouse rallying

800
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 3: by behind the accused in a way that I have

801
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 3: never seen before. Josh is right, just doing that one

802
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 3: job you had to do makes it a totally different case.

803
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: If you have one final thought, however you want to

804
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: say it, and Franz, I'll start with you if you

805
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: just have any final comment, because everything y'all have said

806
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: is so freaking brilliant.

807
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: So regardless of whether he did it or not, regardless

808
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 3: of whether or not Karen Reider innocent or not, what

809
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 3: I love about this case is as a defense attorney,

810
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 3: And I'm sorry, Cheryl, it's gonna make your job a

811
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 3: little harder as a defense attorney. All of a sudden,

812
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 3: people have expectations that they didn't have before on criminal

813
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 3: justice cases that sadly for the government, sadly for the state.

814
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 3: I'm not going to lose any sleepover, Josh. It's going

815
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: to lean towards that that presumption of innocence. The presumption

816
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 3: of innocence piece I think has some solid teeth, and

817
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 3: I'll be using care and read in my jury selection

818
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 3: and I'll be talking about the presumption of innocence and

819
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 3: from that, I am grateful about this case. I am

820
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 3: terribly sympathetic for the O'Keefe family and I'm sorry that

821
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 3: he got lost in this case.

822
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 2: I can't agree more.

823
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you nonsince the oj Simpson case have

824
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: I seen a trial where I know the standard of

825
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: my job has changed.

826
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: So you're absolutely right, Joshua, how about you?

827
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 4: This is a cultural touchdom case, even more so than

828
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 4: I'm gonna say Murder or Johnny so many of the

829
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 4: big case for the last five year Weinstein. This is

830
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 4: a cultural touchdom because how much it's engaged in the community.

831
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 4: And we didn't even get into the circus, and we

832
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 4: could talk for days about the impact on the block

833
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 4: sphere and the citizenry and how everybody got involved in

834
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 4: this case. It is taken over New England as.

835
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: Far as I can tell.

836
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 4: I'm half shocked there aren't riots in the street from

837
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 4: some of the reporting. And while that's terribly sad because

838
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 4: it showed us the underbelly the grossness of humanity, angry

839
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 4: people just wanting to be angry people treating each other despicably,

840
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 4: and I mean absolutely criminally despicably. Regardless of your position,

841
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 4: it was on all sides. There were things done in

842
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 4: this case that are horified. But the win in this

843
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 4: is community involvement, education, raising the profile of how hard

844
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 4: these cases are, and the more people are aware of

845
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 4: how the system works, even when it's a bad example.

846
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 4: The knowledge of how the system works is worth the

847
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 4: trauma that so many of these litigants had to go.

848
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: Y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the way that

849
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: I always do with a quote. I believe people, human beings,

850
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 1: deep down are essentially good. Any jury can filter through

851
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 1: whatever bull they might throw their way and use common

852
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: sense to get to the truth of a case.

853
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 2: Kimberly guildforth. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.