1
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Behind the Police, a production of I Heart Radio.

2
00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 1: Now I Am Become Pod the Destroyer of Casts. Welcome

3
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: back to Behind the Bastards. This is Robert Evans trying

4
00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,840
Speaker 1: to trying a new style of introduction. This is actually

5
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 1: Behind the Police, our special mini series and Behind the

6
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:29,400
Speaker 1: Bastards we talk about history's greatest bastards, American Police. Back

7
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,320
Speaker 1: with me for part five of this six part series

8
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,680
Speaker 1: is my co host Jason Petty, better known as the

9
00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,720
Speaker 1: hip hop artist Propaganda. Jason, How you doing man? So

10
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,599
Speaker 1: man even dried mangoes and listening to old DJ Scratch

11
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 1: and I hope that like I hope, I'm sorry, guys,

12
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:53,400
Speaker 1: I'm back man, I'm here again. Thanks God all the variants. Yeah,

13
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,840
Speaker 1: you're the first guests we've had for three straight weeks

14
00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,279
Speaker 1: or for two straight weeks. I think, man, I like

15
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm getting in my hitting like Billy Wayne like like

16
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,760
Speaker 1: like I mean you're hitting, you're hitting Propaganda zone. I

17
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 1: like that, man, my own zone like zone. Yeah, like

18
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,800
Speaker 1: those like those like those cow zone things that they

19
00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,320
Speaker 1: used to make a pizza I think it was pizza

20
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,280
Speaker 1: Hut the zone Yeah yeah, yeah, those were good. Yeah, Yo,

21
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,399
Speaker 1: can I quick joke about quick joke, not quick Joe,

22
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,160
Speaker 1: quick story about cow zones. Absolutely, and we can move

23
00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 1: on there. So my homeboy Jose with Solomon. He's probably

24
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,479
Speaker 1: one of the most gorgeous men I've ever met. And

25
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 1: uh he's a carmel six ft six like soul singer, poet.

26
00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,200
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. It's not fair. You know, you never meet

27
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,800
Speaker 1: the guy where it's like, it's just not fair. You

28
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,440
Speaker 1: shouldn't be No one should be this beautiful. So that's

29
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 1: a Joe, right. Um, Joe lives in Atlanta. He was

30
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,560
Speaker 1: ordering this pizza or he went to the spot, you know,

31
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 1: during the quarantine, wanted a cow zone. And you know,

32
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: first of all, it's it's Atlanta, you know this, let's

33
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,480
Speaker 1: be real, it's chocolate. Say these black people, right, and

34
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 1: the whole shop with black people. And he tries to

35
00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 1: get a cow zone and he could tell, based on

36
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 1: the way that the lady was looking at him that

37
00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,880
Speaker 1: she didn't know what the cow zone was, right, So

38
00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 1: so he but she still was like pressed a few

39
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,200
Speaker 1: buttons on the screen and then you could see her

40
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: look back at the home. He's like, hey, hey, what's right,

41
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:23,720
Speaker 1: and they kind of whispered back and forth. You could

42
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,240
Speaker 1: tell somebody must to google the cow zone, and then

43
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,840
Speaker 1: he finally gets it, and then stupid him didn't open

44
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,240
Speaker 1: the box till he got home, and he opened the

45
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 1: box and it was just a pizza folded in half.

46
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 1: I mean that is essentially that's the body part. I

47
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 1: was like, that is a cow zone. But that he

48
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,880
Speaker 1: was like, you just folded a small pizza and half.

49
00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,920
Speaker 1: What else do you want? I mean, really, you know

50
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 1: what isn't like a cow zone? Prop the American policing, Yes,

51
00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 1: the evolution of American policing in the nineteen hundreds is

52
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:07,239
Speaker 1: not very much like a folded pizza. Uh, thanks, unfortunate,

53
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 1: Thank the Lord above. What if that's how we handled

54
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,880
Speaker 1: law enforcement. What if when you had two feuding gangs,

55
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 1: the government just sent cow zones over and we're like, hey, guys, yo,

56
00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,440
Speaker 1: if you zones some cow zones, a little bit of barbecue,

57
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: a couple of you know what I'm saying. It's like, everybody,

58
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 1: just sit down, let's just have some cow zones, some

59
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 1: high links. I think a good of the problems of

60
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,960
Speaker 1: law enforcement, Like, instead of tear gassing a bunch of protesters,

61
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 1: what if the state provided cow zones, I'd bewitted. Yeah,

62
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 1: and it's cheaper too. I bet we'd save money on

63
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,000
Speaker 1: tear gas and such because you can buy you can

64
00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,160
Speaker 1: feed a lot of people cow zones cal zones for

65
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,720
Speaker 1: the price of hundreds of tear gas canisters. Let me

66
00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 1: tell you something. And you know, it's less to clean up,

67
00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, It's easier on the environment,

68
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,839
Speaker 1: create more jobs, creates more jobs. Look, we just pods over.

69
00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 1: Thanks very much, guys. You know, look forward to our

70
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,600
Speaker 1: new behind the cow Zone series. Behind this idea of

71
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 1: ours goes horribly wrong in a year. Yeah, the cow

72
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,920
Speaker 1: zone shot a kid. No one had ever seen anything

73
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,839
Speaker 1: like it, Helton with a cow zone from a cow zone,

74
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 1: and we'd have to deal. Okay. So yeah, last week

75
00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,400
Speaker 1: we dug into the really the very racist roots of

76
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 1: US policing, the KKK, Jim Crow lynching and the death penalty,

77
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,360
Speaker 1: and in doing so, we kind of took a break

78
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,800
Speaker 1: from the broader history of how police have evolved in

79
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,320
Speaker 1: this country and focused on like the enabling of white

80
00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 1: supremacy in the suppression of black people as an integral

81
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,840
Speaker 1: part of the justice system. And today we're going to

82
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,160
Speaker 1: kind of peel back out again to discuss how the

83
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,840
Speaker 1: broader system of police evolved in the US over the

84
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 1: last century to bring us to where we are now,

85
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: which is, you know, police stopping random people for no reason,

86
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,280
Speaker 1: doing horrific violence to them, uh, and then being shielded

87
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 1: from consequences by police unions. So that's what we're going

88
00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 1: to explain today. Okay, who yeah, there it is. This

89
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,119
Speaker 1: will be fun. We're gonna talk a lot about police

90
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:04,960
Speaker 1: unions and a lot about a stop and frisk and

91
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 1: broken windows. Okay, yeah, so those two stopping frisk gets

92
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 1: to like my life. Yeah yeah. So to get to

93
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,000
Speaker 1: that point, we have to, you know, zoom back a

94
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,320
Speaker 1: bit to the start of the twentieth century. By the

95
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 1: time this nation started entering you know what most people

96
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,359
Speaker 1: would call the modern era, most police departments were de

97
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,119
Speaker 1: facto the enforcement arm of organized crime, in the words

98
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 1: of one scholar, So cops existed. We talked about this

99
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,800
Speaker 1: in the episode two. Cops existed as muscle for for

100
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 1: criminal for like gang leaders and stuff. Police departments engaged

101
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,440
Speaker 1: in constant election fraud because their jobs were generally tied

102
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,800
Speaker 1: to the position of local political bosses who are also gangsters.

103
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,520
Speaker 1: And during this period. This is like Tammany Hall and Ship.

104
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,240
Speaker 1: And during this period police drew salaries, but there was

105
00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,360
Speaker 1: no such thing as overtime, and their salaries were generally shipped,

106
00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,479
Speaker 1: so instead they took a lot of bribes. Dr. Gary Potter,

107
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,239
Speaker 1: who's a historian of law enforcement, insists that it's actually

108
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 1: wrong to call the police in this period corrupt. He writes, quote,

109
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,080
Speaker 1: they were in fact primary instruments for the creation of

110
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,480
Speaker 1: corruption in the first place. So like the police aren't corrupt,

111
00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,600
Speaker 1: the police create corruption in this period, which is an

112
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,880
Speaker 1: interesting but I think really important distinction to make. Actually

113
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,159
Speaker 1: took a second, like yeah, dang, yeah, I need to

114
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,720
Speaker 1: lean back from that one for a little bit like that.

115
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 1: That is profound. Yeah, yeah, Garry Potter doesn't mince fucking

116
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,719
Speaker 1: words at all. Yeah. So, in the early nineteen hundreds,

117
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,440
Speaker 1: police departments in major major cities, particularly in the Eastern Seaboard,

118
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,120
Speaker 1: but also Chicago, because Chicago is a Midwestern city, but

119
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,839
Speaker 1: we all kind of lump it in with the East Coast.

120
00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,920
Speaker 1: We all do it, even Chicago does sometimes when they're lazy,

121
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 1: like deal with the Chicago. You should have moved further

122
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,160
Speaker 1: east if you wanted to, not was like, do you

123
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,560
Speaker 1: have do you get snowed in from a tunja? You're

124
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 1: on the East coast, bro, Yeah, yeah, thank you so

125
00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,119
Speaker 1: uh yeah, police apartments in major cities in the Eastern

126
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 1: Seaboard in the early nineteen hundred, uh did a bit

127
00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,840
Speaker 1: more than just provide muscle for gangsters and crack the

128
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,599
Speaker 1: heads of labor organizers. UM. They also got into the

129
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,840
Speaker 1: business because no one else was going to do it,

130
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,880
Speaker 1: of what we'd call social welfare. UM. It was kind

131
00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,600
Speaker 1: of their job to take care of the homeless and

132
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 1: the critically ill. And they weren't good at this. But

133
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,600
Speaker 1: police in Boston, New York and other cities sheltered homeless

134
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: people in precincts, They emptied public toilets, and they kept

135
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,520
Speaker 1: track of the infected during epidemics. Now, since again these

136
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,880
Speaker 1: men were at the time hired gangsters, they were not

137
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:24,880
Speaker 1: renowned for taking to these tasks with a great deal

138
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,520
Speaker 1: of empathy. But nobody else really gave a ship. They

139
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,800
Speaker 1: didn't give a sh it either, but they were kind

140
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 1: of the people you gave the bad jobs to. Again,

141
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 1: not a lot of respect for law enforcement in this period,

142
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,160
Speaker 1: so they're like, we need somebody to like pull the

143
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 1: homeless people off the streets. They don't freeze to death.

144
00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 1: Half the cops do it. Yeah, So it was prohibition

145
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 1: that finally tipped law enforcement over the edge, uh like,

146
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 1: over the edge of of of creators of corruption to

147
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 1: um so outwardly criminal that the state had to like

148
00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 1: that the federal government had to do something about. The

149
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 1: sheer scale of corruption unleashed by prohibition, and like the

150
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,440
Speaker 1: error of speakeasies and gangsters turned police departments into, you know,

151
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 1: whatever they had been before, a complete mockery of law

152
00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 1: and order, and federal authorities pushed reform and investigatory commissions

153
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 1: that had to look into a variety of different scandals.

154
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,360
Speaker 1: Dr Potter lays out just a few examples of police

155
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,320
Speaker 1: crime that inspired the creation of commissions. Quote number one,

156
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,480
Speaker 1: the formation of a prostitution syndicate by Los Angeles Mayor

157
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,440
Speaker 1: Arthur Harper, police Chief Edward Kerns and a local organized

158
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: crime figure, combined with subsequent instructions to the police to

159
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,000
Speaker 1: harass the syndicates competitors in the prostitution industry. Number two

160
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,400
Speaker 1: the assassination of organized crime figure Arthur Rothstein by police

161
00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,320
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Charles Becker, head of the NYPD's vice Squad and

162
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,080
Speaker 1: number three a dispute between the Mayor and District Attorney

163
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,040
Speaker 1: of Philadelphia, each of whom controlled rival gambling syndicates, and

164
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,320
Speaker 1: each of whom used loyal factions of police to harass

165
00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,760
Speaker 1: the other. So, like, these are just a couple of

166
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,400
Speaker 1: examples of the sort of behavior police departments are engaging

167
00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,840
Speaker 1: in at the time where they're they're they're just they're

168
00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:59,079
Speaker 1: even like more criminal than a lot of the criminal syndicates. Um. Yeah, yeah.

169
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 1: And another stigative commission that was said up during this

170
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,559
Speaker 1: period was the Linux Committee, which was formed to look

171
00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,880
Speaker 1: into the charges of police extortion in New York. It

172
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,400
Speaker 1: found that promotion within the NYPD in the early nineteen

173
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,720
Speaker 1: hundreds was based entirely on direct bribes paid by officers

174
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,079
Speaker 1: to the Department of Promotion to sergeant cost six a

175
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 1: promotion to captain it cost fifteen thousand dollars. All of

176
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 1: these scampers and many Yeah. Yeah, he would just pay

177
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,800
Speaker 1: to get promoted in the police. Yeah. It's just it's

178
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 1: just so crazy that, like, I mean, as much as

179
00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,920
Speaker 1: you want to believe that like, throughout the course of

180
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 1: time we have gotten somehow, in some way better at

181
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 1: being the species we are. It's just I just the

182
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,920
Speaker 1: more you know of history, the more you're like, no,

183
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,720
Speaker 1: we've kind of been a plateaued. We've kind of just

184
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,800
Speaker 1: always been like this, you know. And that's the part

185
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 1: that just like no. But because because I'm thinking about like,

186
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: I'm still hanging on the word on the on the

187
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:05,440
Speaker 1: phrase of like it created the collection, because I'm going, well,

188
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't pay them a lot, You're I

189
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 1: am incynivized. You're like, like, you're just hoping these people

190
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:20,560
Speaker 1: would somehow not have the same corrupted soul as the

191
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,720
Speaker 1: rest of the people. But they just people, and they're

192
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,040
Speaker 1: gonna find the path of least resistance, the quickest way

193
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 1: to get a buck, and the best way to like

194
00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,360
Speaker 1: push other people down for their own success. I don't

195
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,280
Speaker 1: know why you think putting a badge on a chest

196
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: gonna make them any different. So when you hear this

197
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,319
Speaker 1: stuff like this, I'm just like, God, dog, it was it?

198
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:46,480
Speaker 1: Were we ever have we ever done good things? Well? Yeah, yeah,

199
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,920
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a I forget who the name

200
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 1: of the individual who it was, but there I believe

201
00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,440
Speaker 1: it was a Holocaust survivor and he wrote something to

202
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 1: the He had a quote that was something along lines

203
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 1: of and like any given period of time, like ten

204
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,720
Speaker 1: percent of people are genuinely good, ten percent of people

205
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,280
Speaker 1: are total monsters, and about could kind of go either

206
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,439
Speaker 1: way depending on where it's seeing how it seems the

207
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,200
Speaker 1: wind is blowing, um and like if the wind is

208
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, blowing in the way that like if if

209
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,160
Speaker 1: everyone in charge is literally running a criminal syndicate of

210
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 1: like prostitution and and like and probably a lot of

211
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,520
Speaker 1: forced prostitution and like gambling and like murder for higher

212
00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,000
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, if that's everybody, then yeah, that's

213
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 1: what you get involved with. Like then like okay, we'll

214
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,640
Speaker 1: all find some way to make money within the system.

215
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 1: It's the ocean. It's still so you just kind of

216
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,440
Speaker 1: like do it because that's I mean, you gotta swim, Yeah,

217
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,679
Speaker 1: you gotta swim. Yeah. So uh. The current Committee of

218
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 1: nineteen investigated in YPD collusion and gambling in prostitution. The

219
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 1: Seabury Committee in nineteen thirty one also looked into the NYPD,

220
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,440
Speaker 1: this time into the broader system of bosses and bribery

221
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 1: for political positions. That was the core of why New

222
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 1: York law enforcement sucked. Each of these commissions made changes,

223
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,320
Speaker 1: but right up unto the nineteen fifties, there were still

224
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,280
Speaker 1: regular inquiries into police involvement with gambling, prostitution, and organized crime.

225
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,120
Speaker 1: And I cannot exaggerate how many of these committees were

226
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,640
Speaker 1: focused on the NYPD. Like, one way to look at

227
00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,760
Speaker 1: the twentieth century is the federal government fighting tooth and

228
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,640
Speaker 1: nail to stop New York Police from being just a

229
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,840
Speaker 1: criminal enterprise. Like that took decades of battling. Yeah, not metaphorically,

230
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 1: not as a way to understand what's happening. No, seriously,

231
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,080
Speaker 1: they're just no, they're pimps with badges. Yeah, that's just

232
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,280
Speaker 1: what they actually are. And while I was googling around,

233
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,360
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of come up with another example

234
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,800
Speaker 1: or two, like a direct one of the NYPD, you know,

235
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,320
Speaker 1: being pimps or whatnot in the early nineteen hundreds. And

236
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,560
Speaker 1: it was actually hard because there were so many cases

237
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 1: of them in the twenty first century doing the exact

238
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,200
Speaker 1: same thing. For example, I was googling around on this,

239
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 1: I came across the two thousand eighteen story about a

240
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 1: retired NYPD detective who ran a two million dollar broadle

241
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,680
Speaker 1: ring using active copses muscle and his inside knowledge of

242
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 1: how department undercovers did prostitution stings in order to avoid

243
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 1: getting busted. He knew that like undercovers weren't allowed to

244
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 1: show their genitals to prostitutes, so he would make all

245
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,559
Speaker 1: of the johns strip naked and like let themselves get

246
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,199
Speaker 1: fondled before starting the transaction. Um, because that helped him

247
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,760
Speaker 1: avoid getting busted by the NYPD. UM. Yeah, there were

248
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,080
Speaker 1: seven active duty officers who worked for his prostitution ring. Um.

249
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,440
Speaker 1: One of them was actually willing to work for free

250
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,160
Speaker 1: in exchange for discounts with his favorite prostitutes. So again,

251
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 1: two eighteen is when that gets busted. Regular scumbag. It's awesome,

252
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:45,000
Speaker 1: regular dudes just being normal scumbags. Yeah, it's like someone decided, like, okay,

253
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 1: let's take ten percent of the normal scumbag population and

254
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 1: make them immune to being punished if they shoot someone. Yes,

255
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 1: uh so yeah, Well, the federal government was fighting to

256
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 1: make the NYPD a modestly less criminal enterprise. A major

257
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,319
Speaker 1: revolution had started to overtake law enforcement nationwide, and it

258
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,480
Speaker 1: started on the West Coast. Luminaries in you know that

259
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,960
Speaker 1: part of the country began to wonder if perhaps police

260
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,319
Speaker 1: officers ought not be trained professionals instead of drunken gangsters.

261
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,360
Speaker 1: And the the first real apostle of this gospel was

262
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 1: a dude named August Volmer. He was the very first

263
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 1: police chief of Berkeley, California, and he served from nineteen

264
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,720
Speaker 1: o nine to nineteen thirty one. Um. And this, this

265
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: guy is about the best cop you're gonna find in

266
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 1: US history. Um. From yeah, from every he did have,

267
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,920
Speaker 1: Like his early history, he was in part of like

268
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 1: the U. S occupation of the Philippines, but he was

269
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,040
Speaker 1: like a like a gun boat he worked on like

270
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,080
Speaker 1: a gunboat. Like I'm sure he like he was part of,

271
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,600
Speaker 1: you know, the US crimes in the Philippines, but he wasn't.

272
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 1: It's not like a case with John Burge, Like I

273
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,240
Speaker 1: have no evidence that he was like running secret prisons

274
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 1: and torturing people. Like he was just a soldier who

275
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 1: fought in a bad war. Um. And then he became

276
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,880
Speaker 1: the police chief in Berkeley. And when he took the job,

277
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,360
Speaker 1: Berkeley police were just as corrupt as New York police.

278
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,400
Speaker 1: August only had a sixth grade education, but he knew

279
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,400
Speaker 1: enough to immediately ban the receipt of gifts and bribes

280
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 1: for his officers, Like that was the first thing he did.

281
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 1: Was like, obviously you can't take bribes that anymore. Yeah, yeah,

282
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,680
Speaker 1: yeah again sixth grade education said oh yeah, well, we

283
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 1: gotta stop doing this that. Huh what if what if

284
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 1: we weren't just gangsters? Yeah, I tried to do the job, guys. Yeah,

285
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: what if we treated it like a job? Yeah? And

286
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 1: he was He's really it's baffling the number of first

287
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 1: this guy is responsible for in law enforcement. He was

288
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 1: the first police chief to put cops on bicycles in

289
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,440
Speaker 1: nineteen ten. He was the first police chief to put

290
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 1: cops on motorcycles in nineteen eleven. His officers received the

291
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 1: very first radios and their squad cars. Vulmer's apartment created

292
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 1: the first centralized police record system, and he was the

293
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,200
Speaker 1: first chief in the United States to push his officers

294
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 1: to use blood, fiber and soil analysis to solve crimes.

295
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,800
Speaker 1: He was one of the first chiefs to use fingerprinting

296
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,560
Speaker 1: of Valmer was also the first chief to require college

297
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 1: degrees of his officers. He was one of the first

298
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 1: police chiefs to hire black cops, although not the first,

299
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,520
Speaker 1: but he was the very first police chief to hire

300
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 1: female officers in nineteen nineteen. August was also the first

301
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 1: police chief in the US to explicitly banned the use

302
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 1: of the third degree, and he was a lifetime opponent

303
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 1: of capital punishment. Um. He was notorious and fairly unique

304
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 1: among law men in this period for believing that communists

305
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 1: had a right to organize and state their views without

306
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 1: being beaten into bloody pols. This guy, yeah, he's the

307
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 1: best cop we're going to talk about. Like, I am impressed, bro.

308
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 1: Like you you see him riding by in his little

309
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 1: like big big front wheel, little chilly, silly police car,

310
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 1: silly bike, you know what I'm saying, Like the old school,

311
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 1: old timey victorian bike. But he's a cop. And that

312
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 1: guy you salute, like, hey, what's up, officer? You know, yeah,

313
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: he was trying, yeah, at least trying. Yeah. And now

314
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,560
Speaker 1: he was also one of the very first, like people

315
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 1: anywhere to teach class as in criminal justice, essentially like

316
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 1: helping to invent that field of higher education. Like, he

317
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 1: was one of the first people to be like, we

318
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,359
Speaker 1: should probably have college classes that help people do do

319
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,159
Speaker 1: this thing. That's the job. Um. And one of his

320
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,920
Speaker 1: students was a dude named O. W. Wilson, and O. W.

321
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 1: Wilson went on to become the police chief of Fullerton.

322
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 1: He was also the police chief of Jesus somewhere in

323
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 1: the Midwest. I forget where where else he was the

324
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 1: police chief, and he was in California, California. Um And

325
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,200
Speaker 1: he was also the superintendent of the Chicago p D

326
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: at one point, so he was a very influential like

327
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 1: running police departments, Guy um And he wrote a book

328
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 1: called Police Administration in nineteen forty three, and this was

329
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 1: sort of a reaction to how most cops in big

330
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 1: cities were drunken gangsters. Um And it basically O. W. Wilson,

331
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,719
Speaker 1: you know, who is the protege of Valmer is like,

332
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 1: we need to professionalize police departments nationwide. Um and Wilson

333
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,400
Speaker 1: wanted police departments to be centralized and reformed along military

334
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 1: style lines. This helped departments to keep a closer eye

335
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 1: in their officers and stop them from, you know, just

336
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,520
Speaker 1: selling bootleg liquor or whatever. So you can see the

337
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 1: logic and what Wilson was trying to do, right, it

338
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 1: makes it makes sense, It makes sense, but it didn't work.

339
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,720
Speaker 1: Um Or it didn't work well, yeah, For one thing,

340
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:19,080
Speaker 1: his drive towards centralization created powerful, unaccountable, authoritarian police bureaucracies

341
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,199
Speaker 1: that were both unaccountable to the public and to the

342
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 1: officers that worked there. Racist and sexist hiring practices were

343
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 1: never reformed, and so these dictatorial police bureaucrats were basically

344
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: just white dudes. Um. Samuel Walker, a professor of criminal

345
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,919
Speaker 1: justice in Nebraska, notes that quote a half century of

346
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,160
Speaker 1: professionalization had created police departments that were vast bureaucracies, inward

347
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 1: looking and isolated from the public and defensive in the

348
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: face of any criticism, which does not sound familiar at all. Um. Yeah,

349
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: I can't win with these guys, like yeah, every time

350
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,400
Speaker 1: you wanted like I want to be like, oh yeah,

351
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,560
Speaker 1: what's good? Oh well, there it is. It never quite

352
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 1: works out right, like they always seem to keep sucking,

353
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,440
Speaker 1: even when you deal with what you think are the

354
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,920
Speaker 1: the the problems, which maybe hints that the problem is

355
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 1: at the root of what we have police for, um,

356
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 1: as opposed to them neeting bicycles, which when not that Yeah, yeah, my,

357
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,480
Speaker 1: my my, I remember one of my my elementary school

358
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 1: teacher used to say, hey, if every place you touch

359
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: on your body, hurts. Your finger is probably broken. So

360
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,240
Speaker 1: that's why I just think about I'm just like, maybe

361
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: your fingers broken, guys, maybe the finger is broken. Yeah, good, good,

362
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: good way to describe that. Never forgot that, Ms Deirfield.

363
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 1: So um, what's worse is that Wilson, like his mentor

364
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 1: mentor volmer Um, both of whom I think had good intentions,

365
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,199
Speaker 1: had seized upon the idea that police should focus on

366
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 1: crime prevention rather than just investigation. Now this was not

367
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,679
Speaker 1: a new idea, and again you can see the logic

368
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 1: and trying to prevent crime, but the way that it

369
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 1: worked out in the real world is that these new professional,

370
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: centralized police departments suddenly started devoting a lot more time

371
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 1: to sending cops out on patrol to stop and search

372
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 1: people at random. Most of these people are members of

373
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 1: the dangerous classes, which at that point were mostly racial

374
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: minorities in the United States. You know, the Irish weren't

375
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 1: really being oppressed no more. But bring that back. Yeah,

376
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: as we've discussed, police had always worked to corral and

377
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 1: control the movement and freedom of non white people. Wilson's

378
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 1: reforms helped to dress that up as crime prevention. So

379
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 1: now the cops aren't out there to keep you know,

380
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,480
Speaker 1: black people in line. They're there to patrol for criminal behavior,

381
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 1: which in which they do the same thing. But it's

382
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 1: harder to complain about if you're a white liberal. We's

383
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 1: got some better codes, yeah, exactly, better codes. Yeah, And

384
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 1: I don't think that was Wilson's intent, but that's what happened. Um. Now,

385
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 1: actual police officers weren't much happier than the general public

386
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 1: with these reforms. Their resentment at their unaccountable, distant, and

387
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: all powerful bosses helped to inspire a growing movement to

388
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 1: unionize police departments. Now, police in many cities had long

389
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,959
Speaker 1: sought the benefits of unionization, but since a huge part

390
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 1: of their literal job was busting unions and murdering union organizers,

391
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 1: this was a tough needle to thread. It's a little

392
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 1: a little con lifted here. Yeah, are we are we

393
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: killing these people for the same thing we think is

394
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 1: a good idea for Oh yeah, well fuck it. Yeah.

395
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 1: So cops in some cities started to form fraternal associations

396
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 1: in order to try to gain some of the same

397
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 1: benefits of unions while also not feeling like complete hypocrites.

398
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 1: For the unions. Yeah, this did not work out well forever.

399
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 1: These fraternal organizations just didn't associations just didn't do what

400
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: unions do. The first department to seek straight up unionization

401
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 1: was the Cleveland police in eighteen ninety seven. Uh, they

402
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: petitioned the American Federation of Labor, whose president Samuel Gompers

403
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 1: turned them down, stating it is not within the province

404
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 1: of the trade union movement to especially organized policemen, nor

405
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: more than to organize militiamen, as both policemen and militiamen

406
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,719
Speaker 1: are often controlled by forces in imical to the labor movement.

407
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 1: So like, it's not our job, like you kill us.

408
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 1: We're not going to let you join us to make

409
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: more money to kill us. Yeah yeah, yeah, you want

410
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 1: me to hell, you be better at stopping us. Yeah, no, no, sir. Yeah.

411
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 1: It's kind of like buying oil from countries you're at

412
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: war with and I'm sorry, yeah, or like partnering with

413
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: Nazis over single payer healthcare and ignoring the fact that

414
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: they're also in favor of Nazi ship because like what

415
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: if we worked and no, don't work together with you,

416
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 1: No want to kill you. Yeah, you don't want to

417
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 1: do that don't work with them. Ever, even if they're

418
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: right about one thing, like cops are right workers should unionize,

419
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: but that's like still still yeah, still problems. Yes, So

420
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 1: cops continued to seek the benefits of union membership even

421
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: whilst violently suppressing unions. In nineteen nineteen, Boston's police asked

422
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: the a f L for a charter, angry at, among

423
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: other things, the fact that they had to pay for

424
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: their own uniforms. The commissioner told them that they couldn't

425
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: unionize in the a f L was an exactly a

426
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 1: big fan either um. But when they unionized anyway, nineteen

427
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: union organizers were fired and the police went on strike.

428
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: This is the first police strike with nearly officers off

429
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: the job. The people of Boston took the opportunity to

430
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 1: loot the ever loving ship out of their city. And

431
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: I would suggest we look at this less as a

432
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: sign of human nature and more of a sign of

433
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: Bostonian nature. Uh yeah, that sound like I was gonna say,

434
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: this sounds really Boston. That sounds real Boston. Yeah, we'll

435
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: talk about another time when this happened later and there

436
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: wasn't mass looting. So I'm going to write this up

437
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: to Boston. Um. Now, this all prompted Governor Calvin Coolidge

438
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 1: to declare that no public safety workers could strike anywhere, anytime,

439
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: and his hard stance on this as part of what

440
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: helped him become president. Later. Wait, he's saying, nope, what

441
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 1: was he What was his position then when he said

442
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: the public safety workers should never be able to stri

443
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 1: was he? No? I'm saying what was the office he hilled? Oh,

444
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: he was the governor. He was the government. Point. So wait,

445
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: so he was saying, y'ah not allowed to strike, and

446
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, okay, that's stupid because that's the definition

447
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: of striking is like so even the property, that's like

448
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: the amounts of pace of acclamation. I'm like, oh, you've

449
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: fen a set free to slaves in the states that

450
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: are rebelling, Like you what ha. So I'm just sorry.

451
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: Just him making the proclamation just like sounded so stupid.

452
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's striking means we're not listening to you. Yeah. Yeah.

453
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: But there's also the question of whether or not the

454
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: government can stop a strike. Like if a bunch of J. C.

455
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: Penny's workers or whatever unionized and they go on strike,

456
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: there's the federal government can't do anything about that. But

457
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: it's why like when um, when the fucking uh air

458
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: traffic controllers were like, no, we we will criminally punish

459
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: these people because their jobs are like, we can't have

460
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: a society without their jobs, so we can't let them strike.

461
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: That's the idea. I'm not defending that, but that's the justification.

462
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: So it's not as it's not as preposterous as I

463
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: first thought. Okay, it is not like there's an I

464
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with it, but there's an argument to

465
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: be made that like, okay, well but if all of

466
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: the e m t s go on strike, um, people

467
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: will die. But also like I, I don't necessarily not

468
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: saying that I don't think he should be able to strike.

469
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's different than just like miners going on

470
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: striker way, That's what I'm saying. It's like, at least

471
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily cold, don't it. But at least it's

472
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: not it's not a ridiculous statement. It is a it

473
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: is a thing that we should have debated as a nation. Um, yeah,

474
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: because it is different. So yeah, Coolidge's stance was more

475
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: or less the last word on police unions and police

476
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: striking in particular until the nineteen fifties and the professionalization

477
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: of police departments. These years were the heyday for unions

478
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: elsewhere in the country, and cops watched jealously as the

479
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: now aging workers they'd spent years tear gassing reap to

480
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: the benefits of collective bargating fraternal orders proved incapable of

481
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: gaining officers the wages and benefits that they thought they deserved.

482
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 1: So in the early nineteen sixties, police started engaging in

483
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: slow downs, starting in New York by nineteen and this

484
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: is where they wouldn't strike, but they wouldn't do most

485
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: of the things cops are supposed to do. So they

486
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: would you know, they were saying, like if the people

487
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: are getting murdered, will step in there. But like, we're

488
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: not going to stop petty crime now. Yeah, we'll talk

489
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: about that in a little bit, Sophie, because this happens

490
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: real recently. Um. By nineteen sixty four, they had, you know,

491
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: piste off the people in charge, the people with money,

492
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: UM by not enforcing like minor bullshit enough that the

493
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: mayor and the police commissioner were willing to go to

494
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: the table in exchange for giving up any right to strike,

495
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: the Patrolman's Benevolent Association was made a union. It was

496
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: given the ability to act as a collective bargaining agent

497
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: for the city police. Upon becoming a full union, the

498
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: p b A moved immediately to what would become its

499
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: true purpose, protecting cops from any kind of accountability for

500
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: their own actions. In nineteen sixty six, the new mayor

501
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: of New York sat down with the Congress for Racial Equality,

502
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: who had some serious complaints about police misconduct towards black

503
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: New Yorkers. The mayor agreed to add four civilian members

504
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: to the Civilian Complaint Review Board, which had previously consisted

505
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: of three cops. The p b A fought this viciously,

506
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: holding a five thousand member picket line in opposition to

507
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: the idea of giving civilians any say and how their

508
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: police functioned. I'm going to quote next from an article

509
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: in The New Yorker. The p b A then organized

510
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: a public referendum aimed at eliminating the board. It put

511
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: up posters showing a young white woman exiting a subway

512
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: and heading onto a dark, deserted street. The Civilian Review

513
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: Board must be stopped the poster read her life, your

514
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: life may depend upon it. Here we go. A police

515
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: officer must not hesitate. If he does, the security and

516
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: safety of your family maybe jeopardize. You. See what they're

517
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: arguing there is Yeah, yeah, if if you let civilians

518
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: watch what we do, we might not kill the dangerous

519
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: non white people threatening white women fast. Like that's what

520
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: that's that's what they're saying. Yeah, there's the weapon, there's

521
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: the weapon, there's there's the goat, there's the tool. Kid,

522
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: but are but we have to protect our women. Yeah yeah, yeah,

523
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: yeah like that. I enjoyed that. You know what else

524
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: I enjoy Robert, You know what I won't TechEd white No, No, okay,

525
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: um ship that was a bad way to lead this.

526
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: You know what supports police accountability um and things that

527
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: we can have safe subways without unaccountable heavily armed maniacs. Product.

528
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, they all all of we're back. It's good

529
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: to know as a side, No, it's good to know

530
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: that these like abysmal transitions are actually natural. Like it's

531
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: not it's not a stick. You're not like trying to

532
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: be you know aloof yeah, you're really you're really doing this? Yeah,

533
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: I I decided long ago never to learn how to

534
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: do fully half of my job. Um, it's the it's

535
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: to maintain authenticity, right, yeah, that's eactly it. It's to

536
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: maintain authenticity. That's how I justify not learning how to

537
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: do large portions of my job. Yeah, it's called it's

538
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: called brand it's brand protection. I get it, exactly. It's

539
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: just like if you find like icola in your meat.

540
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: It's like, listen, it's organic. Okay, we don't use pesticides.

541
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah you might, you might get bac is um, but

542
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: organic baculum. It's organic. Yea, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So Yeah,

543
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: when we last left off, the New York City Police

544
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six had put up some real racy

545
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: posters um arguing about why they shouldn't let civilians tell

546
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: them not to murder people, and as the vote on

547
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: whether or not to establish this review board approached, the

548
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: PBA's president, John cassisse Um declared, I'm sick and tired

549
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: of giving into minority groups with their whims and gripes

550
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: and shouting oh man, yeah real physically, yeah, I physically

551
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: responded to that. Yeah. Yeah, y'all always complaining, Yeah that

552
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: you don't like us shooting you. You want some saying

553
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: whether or not we shoot you with the bullets you

554
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: help buy? Yes? Can I just do my job? That's

555
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: literally all we're asking is just that you do your job?

556
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: Yeah please? Yeah? Please? Um so around the country cops elsewhere.

557
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: So how good a job the NYPD had done it

558
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: winning better pay for themselves and sticking a thumb in

559
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: the eye of those pesky minorities who felt like someone

560
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: should stop them from Yeah. Uh. Police unionization spread throughout

561
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: the continents, and over the years, police unions bargained for

562
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: a hell of a lot more than just increased wages.

563
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: Starting in New York but spreading quickly over the nation,

564
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: many police union contracts began requiring departments to a race

565
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: officer disciplinary records after a set period of time. And

566
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: this kind of gets to the chief problem of police unions.

567
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: They act in the interest of officers, and obviously unions

568
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: are supposed to act into the interests of workers, but

569
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: a lot of times, because of the kind of people

570
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: who become police officers, uh, the interests of the officers

571
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: means acting against the interests of general society. So, if

572
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: for example, a minor or a grocery store employee or uh,

573
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: any other kind of worker really gets more money. That

574
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: might be against the interests of the people who own

575
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: stock in the company, you know, of the capital holding

576
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: class of like like of of the people who you know,

577
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: the the executives at the top, who have to take

578
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: pay cuts. You can argue that's against their interest, um,

579
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: but they don't. If a if somebody who works like

580
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: they're not able to like the fucking A union representing

581
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: grocery store employees doesn't make it impossible for you to

582
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: tell which grocery store employees are stabbing people, because grocery

583
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: store employees don't do that, and when they do, they

584
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: tend to go to prison and stop working at the

585
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: nobody nobody. The unions don't rush into be like no, no, no,

586
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: you have to keep employing this man all he did

587
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: with stab three people, Like yeah, I'm like that the

588
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: union doesn't protect you from being from sucking at your job, right,

589
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: I mean it does a little bit, Like that's a

590
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: that's a fair argument that like unions keep people sometimes

591
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: like teachers who are bad at teaching stay on. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

592
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: fair fair enough. But like the point going back to

593
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: your analogy. I'm like, you can't just lick the apples

594
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: and then be like, yo, my union protects me because

595
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: I got a right to lick the apples. And I'm like, no, you,

596
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: I don't know why. That's not your function, like you know,

597
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: I think, And just going back to the police, I'm like,

598
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: you know what, dude, you have a hard job. You

599
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: should be paid. Well, you're right, you should be paid. Well,

600
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: you have a hard job. But what is not your

601
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: job is being another gang in our neighborhoods and terrorizing

602
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: people to color. That's not your job. You should not

603
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: be protected for doing that. That's what unions protect them for.

604
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: Instead of just being like, oh, well, we're workers too,

605
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: and we should be able to advocate for higher pay.

606
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: They're like, and also if we beat someone, we should

607
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: be able to hide that from the public. Um, that's

608
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: what happens almost immediately with you don't get to you don't.

609
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: That's not one of your perks. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's

610
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: the biggest perk. So yeah. A two thousand seventeen Reuters

611
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: special report on police union contracts and eighty two U

612
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: S cities found that most departments are now required to

613
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: a race officer disciplinary records after a set period of time.

614
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: Sometimes officers records are purged every six months. Eighteen cities

615
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: expunge suspensions in three years or less. Reuters found that

616
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: nearly half a police union contracts guaranteed officers accused of

617
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: bad behavior the right to see their entire investigative file,

618
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: including witness statements made against them. What their what I

619
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: wonder what their defense for that is, because we know

620
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: exactly what you're doing. But what what's their argument for that?

621
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: You know, you know, you shouldn't uh, you shouldn't know.

622
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: It's not fair for anyone to be charged with a

623
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: crime without you know, getting to see the claims made

624
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: by their accusers unless those people are charging the police,

625
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: are being charged by the police of a crime, and

626
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: then there's actually all sorts of ways we have to

627
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: hide that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, dissonance is cognitive yeah, so

628
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: um yeah. Few developments in US policing have had quite

629
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: the impact that unionization has had. Dr Rob Gilzoh, an

630
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 1: assistant professor of economics at the University of Victoria, took

631
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: to Twitter at the end of this May when the

632
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: uprising started to give a summary of some of his

633
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: still unpublished research on the impact of police bargaining rights

634
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: on the killing of civilians, and he noted, quote, what

635
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: are we finding so far? The introduction of access to

636
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: collective bargaining drives a modest declient in policy, employment and

637
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: increase in compensation, with no meaningful impacts on total crime,

638
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: violent crime, property crime, or officers killed in the line

639
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: of duty. What does change? We find a substantial increase

640
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: in police killings of civilians over the medium to long run,

641
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: So there is we will continue. There's a lot more

642
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: evidence than just that that that the unionization specifically leads

643
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: to more police killings of civilians. Now, Guilso goes on

644
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: to note that the overwhelming majority of these added deaths

645
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: are non white people. Okay, yep, I mean yeah. Quote,

646
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: if access to a union simply shifted the marginal decision

647
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: for officers to shoot in risky situations, you would expect

648
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: to see increases in killings of both whites and non whites.

649
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: But that is not what we're finding at all. Rather,

650
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: and with the caveat that this is still very early work,

651
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: it looks like collective bargaining rights are being used to

652
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: protect the ability of officers to discriminate and the disproportionate

653
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: use of force against the non white population. Again, a

654
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: big part of this issue is that white supremacy is

655
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: baked into the very soul of you as policing. So

656
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 1: even though police unions didn't come into the picture until

657
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: a hundred years after slavery ended, a lot of the cops,

658
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: most of the cops working in the police at that time,

659
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: were racist as hell, and so police unions immediately turned

660
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: to the task of enshrining and detecting racial violence from

661
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: law and enforcement, and that has remained a part of

662
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: them ever since. Other research is consistently borne out similar conclusions.

663
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: Two eighteen University of Oxford study if the hundred largest

664
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: American cities found that protections and police contracts were directly

665
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: and positively correlated with police violence against citizens. Two thou

666
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: nineteen University of Chicago study found that when collective bargaining

667
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: rights were given to Florida sheriff's deputies, it led to

668
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: a forty statewide increase in violent misconduct by deputies. Got forty.

669
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: When Okay, it's the stuff that you that you can

670
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: into it, into it and know, and then when you

671
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: see the actual numbers it's still like you still throw

672
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: up in your mouth a little, you know, Okay, it's

673
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: like you like that's why I keep trying to say.

674
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, I mean I know that, But now

675
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: that I'm looking at it on paper or listening to

676
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: someone go no, here, here, it is No, You're right,

677
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: got dog, It's still just so infuriating and exhausting that

678
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: despite all these receipts that you're you're showing, we still

679
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: have to explain to people that there's a problem. Yeah.

680
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: If if a new type of if a new type

681
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: of hybrid engine came out and we found out a

682
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 1: year in that it led to at increase in vehicle

683
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: explosions during like vendor benders, not only would that product

684
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: be pulled from the market, people would probably go to

685
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: jail because they would get prosecuted. Whoever would problem four

686
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: out of ten people gond when we drive this thing? Yeah,

687
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: we would at least try at least try yeah. Yeah.

688
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 1: So much of the violets caused by police unions could

689
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: be blamed on the fact that they make it as

690
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: hard as possible to fire dangerously unhinged and violet officers.

691
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna go it again from The New Yorker here.

692
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: Other studies revealed that many existing mechanisms for disciplining police

693
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: are toothless. W b Eazy, a Chicago radio station, found

694
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: that between two thousand seven and two thousand fifteen, Chicago's

695
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: independent Police Review Authority investigated four hundred shootings by police

696
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: and deemed the officers justified in all but two incidents.

697
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: Since two thousand twelve, when Minneapolis replaced at civilian Review

698
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: Board with an Office of the Police Misconduct Review, the

699
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: public has filed more than misconduct complaints, yet only twelve

700
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: resulted in a police officer being punished. The most severe

701
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: penalty a forty hours suspension. When the Saint Paul Pioneer

702
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: Press reviewed appeals involving terminations, suspension, yes, misunder Yeah. When

703
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: the St. Paul Pioneer Press reviewed appeals involving terminations from

704
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen to two thousand nineteen, it discovered that

705
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: arbitrators ruled in favor of the discharged police and correction

706
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 1: officers and ordered them reinstated forty six percent of the time.

707
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 1: Non law enforcement workers were reinstated at a similar rate.

708
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: And again that's the point that like normal unions do

709
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: work this way as well, but they're not representing people

710
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: who have the right to shoot people. Yes, for those

711
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: demanding more accountability, A large obstacle is that disciplinary actions

712
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: are often overturned if an arbitrator finds that the penalty

713
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: in the department meeted out is tougher than it wasn't

714
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: a similar previous case, no matter if the penalty in

715
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: the previous case was far too lenient. Dude, So where's

716
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: the like the trope like, because I'm thinking I'm thinking

717
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 1: the movie trope of like Pulaski badge and gun, like

718
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: the chief is like, give me your bedge and gun,

719
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: you're on leave right and then but the guys such

720
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: one tough cop, but he still investigates the crime. I'm like,

721
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: it don't sound like I don't know where y'all got

722
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: that from, because it sound to me like you know,

723
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: I'm said, I'm rambling, but I'm trying to just like

724
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: where did so where did that come from? Then where's

725
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: the like? Yeah, yeah, you know, if this is actually

726
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: what we're getting into, Because it turns out that it

727
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 1: is accurate that a lot of the times, UH police

728
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: chief hate and try to fire their worst than most

729
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: dangerous officers and police unions make that impossible. That's actually

730
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: right now, Yeah, I'm I'm leaning into it, okay. Yeah,

731
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: And again this is like, like I'm sure that there

732
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: are fucking people in unions who work at tire factories

733
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: or whatever who are bad at their jobs get fired

734
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: and the union gives them their job back, and like

735
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: that probably is a pain in the ask for some

736
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: of the people they work around, but again they don't Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

737
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: guy ain't gonna shoot me. You ain't gonna put his

738
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: knee on my neck. Yeah, Which is to say that,

739
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: like there aren't some problems with other unions, but like

740
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: it's really a problem with the police. Um. Yeah. So

741
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: the Washington Post put together a great article about this

742
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: in two thousand seventeen, noting them in the last eleven years,

743
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: one thousand, eight hundred and eighty one officers had been

744
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: fired from the nation's largest police departments, and four hundred

745
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: and fifty one of those officers had successfully appealed and

746
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: gotten their jobs back. There's four hundred and fifty one

747
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: included an officer who in nineteen year old in his

748
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: patrol car, an officer who challenged a handcuffed man to

749
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: a fist fight for his freedom, and of course a

750
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: cop who shot an unarmed man to death. Yeah, what

751
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta get this guy back on the street.

752
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,439
Speaker 1: Got to give him another chance to win that fist fight. Yeah.

753
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's the like tragically disgusting, and then there's

754
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: the preposterous, like you just you challenged the guy like

755
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: he got on handcuffs, handcuffed man to a fight to

756
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: box him, Like yeah, you nerd, Like, yeah, you weren't

757
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: so deadly, you know what I'm saying. I wish I

758
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: could just be like you're a nerd man. Yeah, And

759
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: like part of me is like I would kind of

760
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: like to get into a fist fight with a cop

761
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: in that situation, but I know that if you start losing,

762
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 1: you're going to shoot me. You can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

763
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: there's no winning that fight. Yes. Um. One of my

764
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: favorite stories in this this really really wonderful Washington Post

765
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: article is the two thou twelve tale of Boston East

766
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: officer Baltazar Tate de Rosa. In two thousand three, de

767
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: Rosa's cousin was ambushed by a masked gunman and murdered

768
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: and what was probably a gang related crime and two

769
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: thousand five, de Rosa cauld and sick for his overnight shift,

770
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: he went out to a nightclub, the Copa Grand Oasis

771
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: instead with a dude named Carlos Topina, who was his

772
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: cousin and the brother of his cousin who got murdered.

773
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: While at the club, both men encountered Jose Lopez, a

774
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: gang member who was a suspect in the murder of

775
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,479
Speaker 1: De Rosa's cousin. Carlos round up murdering Jose Lopez using

776
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: his off duty cop cousin as a getaway driver. So

777
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: de Rosa, who took the night off claiming to be

778
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: sick and went and got wasted a nightclub with his cousin.

779
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: When his cousin murders, a guy acts as the getaway driver,

780
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: and obviously, when this is found out, he gets placed

781
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: on administrative leave and he's charged with being an accessory

782
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: to murder. Um. He was acquitted of that crime, but

783
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: he was fired from the department when the investigation revealed

784
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: that he had actually been arrested with his cousin at

785
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 1: that club before due to a drunken disorderly conduct um.

786
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 1: So again they find out like okay, maybe this guy

787
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: didn't know he was being the getaway driver in a

788
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: murder that his cousins committed, but he knew that he

789
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 1: was repeatedly getting drunk at the club while he should

790
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: have been working, and like we should fire him for

791
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: that he lied about to us. Um So do Rosa

792
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: appealed the firing and two thousand twelve he was reinstated

793
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: with fifty dollars in lost pay in overtime. He is

794
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: currently a Boston Bike Patrol officer. That boy got the

795
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 1: money back. Yeah, of course they always get the money back.

796
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: Oh my, that oh dog got at least money back.

797
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: That one's a fun one because at least like the

798
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: guy that they murdered sounded like a piece of ship

799
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: too whatever, because it's just like look man, this again

800
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: you just gang banging, and like that is the most

801
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: that that story that's funny because it's the most like

802
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: spot on any inner city USA anywhere story, Right, That's

803
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: like that's me. Like, if let's just say I'm working stiff.

804
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: You know, I still taught high school. I'm just gonna

805
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: go chill with one of my cousins because that's my cousin.

806
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: We're all from South Central l a. Right, my cousin

807
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: gets in his static with somebody else. What am I

808
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: gonna not help him as my cousin, you know what

809
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm saying. So like, Okay, yeah, maybe I lose my job,

810
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: you know, but like I just like, you know, I mean,

811
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: that was my cousin. Man, Like I'm gonna you know

812
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like I'm gonna help. I'm gonna help

813
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: scrap with my cousin, you know. Um. And then I

814
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: was supposed to think of you any different because you

815
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: got a badge, right, No, you just like the rest

816
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 1: of us. You're gonna do ratchet ship because you ratchet

817
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: like all of us. Yeah, point exactly, Yeah, exactly. In

818
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, fort Worth police officer y sus

819
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: Jesse Banda Jr. Stalked his ex girlfriend to a party,

820
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: saw her with another man, and used a police like

821
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: called into police dispatch to check on the plates of

822
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: the man she was with, fraudulently claiming that he had

823
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: like stopped the guy or whatever. So he found the

824
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: address of the dude that his ex girlfriend was going

825
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: out with, and several days later he showed up at

826
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: the man's house at night and shot the are up

827
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 1: with his twelve gage. The department couldn't prove he'd committed

828
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 1: the crime, but they were able to show that he

829
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: lied about why he had called in the man's license

830
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: plate like a night or two before his car got

831
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: shot up. Yeah, so the police chief did the give

832
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: me your badge and gun thing, and he put Banda

833
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: on unpaid suspension um And while he was suspended and

834
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: under investigation, he was ordered not to represent himself as

835
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: a police officer. So like you're handing in your badge

836
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: and gun, we're going to investigate you. You are not

837
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 1: getting paid and if you tell anyone you're a police

838
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: officer to try to get you know, the benefits police

839
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 1: officers get, Like you're breaking the fucking law right now.

840
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: So Banda went out and represented himself as a police

841
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: officer of Coorseiately, he and some friends were pulled over

842
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: by another Fort Worth cople They were drunk in a limousine.

843
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: Said cop had watched the people in the back of

844
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 1: the limo, including Banda, pass beer up to the driver.

845
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 1: So again, real hard to get in trouble for drinking

846
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: at a limousine. This fucking dude finds a way. We

847
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: passed into the river. What are you doing man? Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

848
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: So when he asked Banda to step out of the car,

849
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 1: band to hand it over his police credentials and pretended

850
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: to be an officer in good standing. Despite all this,

851
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: the union had Banda's back and they fought for him.

852
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: He was reinstated and awarded a year of back pay.

853
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: So again the police chief is like, I don't what

854
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: this fucking guy in my department, and the unions like

855
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: you are going to take him back and you're gonna

856
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: pay him for the time when he was getting drunken limousines.

857
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: Officer Banda had been back on the force for one

858
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: month before he was fired again for again misrepresenting himself

859
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: during a traffic stop. He is currently he was reinstated

860
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,479
Speaker 1: by the union. He is currently a detective and thanks

861
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: to his union, the people of Fort Worth have to

862
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: brave the streets of their town knowing a guy who

863
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: uses department resources to hunt down the boyfriends of his

864
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: ex partners is out there with the power to arrest

865
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: whoever and apparent immunity to the consequences of any illegal

866
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: actions he takes. So that's good. Congrats Fort Worth. His

867
00:46:52,400 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: great good job for two year old. Yeah, yeah, oh

868
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: thing thing, Yeah that is not the note. That's embarrassing

869
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: that that thing. I don't But we're going to go

870
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 1: to products. Now we're back, and we started talking about

871
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: Carney a soda fries, which I am normally very happy

872
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: with my decision to live in the Pacific Northwest, but

873
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 1: whenever somebody says Carney Asada, I longed for southern California. Yeah,

874
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: so I could go for some Carney fries. But we're

875
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: gonna we have to talk about police unions instead. So,

876
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: um yeah, so let's let's talk about uh Kwan McDonald.

877
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: Um so yeah. In two thousand and fourteen, seventeen year

878
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: old Kwan McDonald was murdered by Chicago police officer Jason

879
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: Van Dyke. The media fewer around this launched an investigation

880
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: which revealed that officer Van Dyke had previously been the

881
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: subject of repeated complaints. The report noted that a code

882
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: of silence about misconduct was baked into labor agreements between

883
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: police unions in the city, and that this ensured that

884
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: nothing had been done about officer Van Dyke before he

885
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: killed a child. Van Dyke was eventually convicted of second

886
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: degree murder in sixteen accounts of aggravated battery with a firearm.

887
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: Sixteen is the number of times he shot him. Um

888
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: Van Dyke was found not guilty of any official misconduct,

889
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: though it was guilty of murder, but not guilty of

890
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: improperly behaving as a police officer. Yeah. Yeah, yes, where

891
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: did murder somebody and we're gonna go to prison for it.

892
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: But you also didn't break the rules of your job. Yeah,

893
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: but job's fine. Yeah, wow, Yeah, what do we do

894
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: with that one? Yeah. Ironically, given their role in murdering

895
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 1: the ship out of unions for close to a hundred years,

896
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: police might be the most successful example of unionization in

897
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: the US history, not in terms of like benefits to

898
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: society or benefit to the profession of policing, but at

899
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: least in terms of the sheer amount of power that

900
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: they wield. The Jesus Labor historian Joseph McCartin notes they

901
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: have more cloud than other public sector unions like the

902
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: teachers and sanitation workers, because they have often been able

903
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: to command the political support of Republicans. That's given them

904
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: a huge advantage. Police unions are one fortunate area where

905
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: we have a single human being who embodies all of

906
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: the evil that these institutions represent and do. And when

907
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: I talk about a single human being who embodies the

908
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: evil of police unions, there's no one else I could

909
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: be talking about but Lieutenant Bob Kroll, head of the

910
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: Minneapolis Police Union. Yeah, president of the Minneapolis Police Union.

911
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: Bob has of course appealed the firing of Derek Chavin

912
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,919
Speaker 1: and the other three cops who murdered George Floyd, saying

913
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: that they were fired without due process um and this

914
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: is something of a pattern for him. And two thousand fifteen,

915
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: when to white MPD officers shot twenty four year old

916
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: Jamark Clark in the head while he was handcuffed on

917
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: the ground, Krol went on TV to talk about Clark's

918
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 1: violent criminal past and declare BLM a terrorist organization. Krol

919
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: has a real thing for declaring people he disagrees with

920
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: of being terrorists. He did the same thing to US

921
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: Representative Keith Ellison, a black Muslim congressman who pushed for

922
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform. That fun detail came out in a

923
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: lawsuit filed by the current IMPD police chief. According to

924
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: Mother Jones, the lawsuit accused Kroll of wearing a motorcycle

925
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: jacket with a white power patch sewed into the fabric,

926
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: and said he had a history of discriminatory attitudes and conduct.

927
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: He has told reporters who was part of the City

928
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 1: Heat motorcycle Club, some of whose members have been described

929
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: by the Anti Defamation League is displaying white supremacist symbols.

930
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: Bob Crow joined the MPD back in nineteen eighty nine,

931
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: and in his years on the force there were twenty

932
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: or more internal affairs complaints made against him. We don't

933
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: know how yeah, minimum. We actually don't know how many

934
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: it was because of all the ship I've been explaining.

935
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: They purge records, but at least twenty, Yeah, Jo, can

936
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: you have twenty on record? Yeah? Imagine I'm gonna like

937
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: imagine I'm reading what I'm going to tell you next,

938
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: and imagine that like he worked as a baker or like,

939
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: like as a computer programmer. Everybody replaced cop with donut maker. Yeah.

940
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: Sanitation worker, sanitation worker. In nineteen ninety four, he was

941
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: suspended for using excessive force in In nineteen nine five,

942
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: he was accused of beating, choking, and kicking a biracial

943
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: fifteen year old while shouting racial slurs. Yeah, Bob Roll.

944
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: In two thousand four, when Kroll was off duty, someone

945
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: leaving a bar bumped his backpack against Kroll's car. Bob

946
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: and another off duty officer got out and beat the

947
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: piss out of this guy. When his friends came to help,

948
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: they beat the ship out of his friends too. Bob

949
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: was suspended for twenty days for this. It's it's cartoonish like,

950
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: like this is cartoon own level. Yes, the Minneapolis the

951
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: Minneapolis police knew all of this when they elected Bob

952
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: Crowl to be their union president by a two to

953
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: one margin. Bob one because the citizens of Minneapolis had

954
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: just elected a reform minded police chief. She told The

955
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: New York Times. I believe Bob Crowle was elected out

956
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: of fear. We're the only ones that support Your community

957
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: doesn't support you. Your police chief is trying to get

958
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: you fired. You see what I'm building to here. Police

959
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: unions allow the cops to deliberately short circuit the democratic process.

960
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: This is part of why bringing in better police chiefs

961
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: and voting in reform minded mayors almost never actually does

962
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: a damn thing when it comes to the police. Yeah,

963
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: because the unions are still there and they stonewall anything

964
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: from happening. When Kim Garner was elected d A of St.

965
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: Louis in two thousand sixteen, she promised to fight police

966
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: violence on behalf of her citizens. One of the way

967
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: she proposed to do this was by establishing an independent

968
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: oversight board to investigate abuses by police, like the PBA

969
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: in New York more than a half century. Early year,

970
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: the police union in St. Louis set right to work

971
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: killing this oversight board. They went to lawmakers one by one,

972
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: and whatever they said stopped the matter from even coming

973
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: to a vote. According to the New York Times quote.

974
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: Around the same time, a lawyer for the union waged

975
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: a legal fight to live it the ability of the

976
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: prosecutor's office to investigate police misconduct. The following year, a

977
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 1: leader of the union said Miss Gardner should be removed

978
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: by force or by choice. Wow, that's cool, can you chack?

979
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: Can you just It's like, I just it's it's comic

980
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: book level power. Like and I just imagine, like you know,

981
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: in in every comic book when the when the bad

982
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: guy goes, like I feel the power, Like I feel

983
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 1: like that's just death must be what it's like to

984
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: where you're like, after a while, just you just know

985
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 1: you can it away with it, and anybody that comes

986
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 1: in to try to stop you, you got the power

987
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: to remove. Like it just got dog like. It must

988
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: be intoxicating, it must it's got to be a drug.

989
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: Like it's got to be a drug. Yeah, yeah, it is,

990
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: it is. It is. They're high on fucking power. And

991
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: if you've ever I mean I don't know, have you

992
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: have you never? Have you never pistol whipped a guy?

993
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god, pistol whipping a dude.

994
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's like that first slice of

995
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: cherry pie on a birthday. Yeah, that's how it. Yeah,

996
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: no wonder they want to protect it. I get it.

997
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: I get it. You're like, this is super fun now, Yeah,

998
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: it's terrible. I've been in enough like fist fights to

999
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 1: know I don't like them. Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

1000
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: And I've been in enough to be like, I don't

1001
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: like him because of the pain, but I also don't

1002
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 1: like him because you just walk away. Like even if

1003
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: it's just like that dude's a freaking scumbag and he

1004
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 1: deserved it, you're still like, oh, you know, I'll feel

1005
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: good about it. Yeah, you still walk away like man,

1006
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: all feel good about it? Yeah? Anyway, Yeah, and I

1007
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: was I was joking about pistols, of course. But I

1008
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: do wonder. I do wonder if we can succeed in

1009
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: police abolition. What if we just made it legal for

1010
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: everyone to own grenade launchers and tear gas gardades and

1011
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: rubber bullets, and then the crowd of protesters could confront

1012
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: the police on it even like, would they enjoy being

1013
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: riot cops? Yeah? If they were having getting flash banged back?

1014
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: I can. I can tell you I've seen some protesters

1015
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: throw like mortars, like fireworks back at police who are

1016
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: shooting grenades of them, and they don't seem to like it. No, Yeah,

1017
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:50,439
Speaker 1: it's crazy, huh, one would think, right, yeah, so um yeah,

1018
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: if if the way that police unions respond when elected

1019
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: officials try to restrict the powers and rights of the

1020
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: police sounds kind of like how the mob works, You're

1021
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: not the only person to think that way. Back in Minneapolis,

1022
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: city councilman Steve Fletcher noted that once he started pushing

1023
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: to freeze the MPD from hiring new officers, the police

1024
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: stopped responding as quickly to nine one one calls made

1025
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: by his constituents. He called it a little bit like

1026
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: a protection racket. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it is, Steve,

1027
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: exactly what it is. We're looking. And he used to

1028
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,479
Speaker 1: have a song called nine one one is a joke

1029
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,399
Speaker 1: and it's and and and like people think they were

1030
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: They're like, what is what are they talking about? No,

1031
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: you don't understand that they don't have to come when

1032
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: we call. Ye, you could decide like this, I'm just

1033
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: not gonna go over there. Yeah, And it's it's funny

1034
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: because of the protests in Portland and stuff, like, I

1035
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: know a lot of people who have been the victims

1036
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: of crimes in Portland. I've been the victims of crimes,

1037
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: thankfully not here, but in other cities. And like it

1038
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: always takes a hell of a long time for the

1039
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: police to respond. Um. But when the protests here wound

1040
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: up in the neighborhood of the mayor's mansion is and

1041
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 1: so like they were surrounded by mansions and people started

1042
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: shining lasers and windows and like sitting off smoke bombs.

1043
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: The police were fucking right there there, so fucking quick man,

1044
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: you guys. Response times today, Wow, you guys, are you

1045
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: guys are really on the ball when this neighborhood, this

1046
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: specific neighborhood gets sucked with Yeah yeah. So um. We'll

1047
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about police unions later. For now,

1048
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: there's another major subject. We've got a pivot to broken

1049
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: windows policing. Yeah, but this is you've heard of broken windows, right, bro?

1050
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: This is the one that like when this is the

1051
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: stuff you're getting into that like our like dads and

1052
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: big brothers and cousins would sit us down and say, hey,

1053
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: this is how it works. You need to protect yourself.

1054
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: They was explaining this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. In

1055
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, a teenager named Alvin Cruz was stopped

1056
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: by police and searched. This was not unusual for Cruise,

1057
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: that had happened to him numerous times before, and the

1058
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: officers searching him this was in New York, by the way,

1059
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: and the officers searching him never explained why they were

1060
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: doing it, but this time because he was just fucking

1061
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: tired of being hassled so many him by the police,

1062
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: Alvin secretly recorded the encounter, and he caught on tape

1063
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: the officer's response when he asked him why he was

1064
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: being stopped, the cop told him for being a fucking mutt.

1065
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: You know that. Another officer twisted his arm behind his

1066
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: back after this and shouted, dude, I'm gonna break your

1067
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: fucking arm and then I'm gonna punch you in the

1068
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 1: fucking face. This tape went real viral, and it was

1069
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: cited in the ruling of a federal judge later that

1070
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: year um when the judge ruled that the NYPDS stopping

1071
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: frisk policy was unconstitutional and racially discriminatory. Stopping frisk is

1072
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,959
Speaker 1: not a policy unique to New York, but as we've learned,

1073
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: the NYPD tend to be trailblazers. This tactic involves basically

1074
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: stopping random people, virtually all of whom were black or Hispanic,

1075
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: and searching them for contraband with little to no cause.

1076
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: Stopping frisk was justified by the best minds available to

1077
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties law enforcement, James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling.

1078
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 1: Do you know what't even about either of these guys? Uh,

1079
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: not personally, except for they're the reason why I can't

1080
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: walk home with a friend. Yes, kid, you're gonna learn

1081
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: some not surprising stuff about them, but yeah, In nineteen

1082
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: eighty two, Wilson and Kelling published an article in the

1083
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: Atlantic that became the foundation of what we now know

1084
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: as broken windows policing, probably the most single most influential

1085
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: article in the history of law enforcement. Their chief argument

1086
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: was boiled down in this sentence. If a window in

1087
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: the building is broken and left unrepaired, all the rest

1088
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: of the windows will soon be broken. Yeah. So, in

1089
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 1: order to keep crime down and keep neighborhoods nice, they argued,

1090
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: all violations of public order have to be sternly punished

1091
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: and prosecuted. Searching random black and Latino kids and occasionally

1092
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: beating the ship out of them is just the price

1093
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: we pay for making sure those kids don't have spray

1094
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 1: paint on them or whatever. You know, aren't going to

1095
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: sell a little bit of weed or something like. Because

1096
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: any small criminal violation will inevitably lead to the total

1097
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: destruction of the neighborhood. So we have to police this

1098
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: little ship as harshly as possible. Now. Wilson and Kelling's

1099
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: new theory of policing was presented as scientific, backed up

1100
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: by the latest data, but that was a complete sham.

1101
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: There was only a single piece of hard evidence behind

1102
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: their theory, and they didn't interpret it the way that

1103
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 1: the actual researchers who did the study um interpreted it.

1104
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: And that single piece of evidence was a nineteen sixty

1105
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 1: nine study by every psych student's favorite problematic researcher, Philip Zimbardo. Yeah,

1106
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: love me some Zimbardo. He was like, there's a lot

1107
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 1: of real good criticisms of Philip Zimbardo, but his work

1108
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: is never boring. Like I want to do some weird

1109
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make a prison and staff it with teenagers.

1110
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: This guy, there's a few people that making into your

1111
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: history books that you're just like, how why are we

1112
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: studying him? I would love to drink with Philip Zimbardo. Like,

1113
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: as someone who is critical of virtually all of his research,

1114
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: he sounds fun. Yeah, yeah, still sounds Yeah. So this

1115
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: particular nineteen sixty nine study by Zimbardo had been inspired

1116
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: by the nineteen sixty eight riots and uprisings, obviously, like

1117
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 1: Zimbardo had just like watched the entire country convulsed by

1118
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: something that was in a lot of ways even more

1119
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: like even more serious than what we're seeing right now. Um,

1120
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: And he was like, I should probably do some science

1121
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: about that. Ship. Um. So he was frustrated, particularly that

1122
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: conservatives blamed vandalism on individual criminality. So vandal considers were

1123
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: blaming like vandalism during protest on the criminal nature of

1124
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: individual protesters, and he thought this was wrong. He thought

1125
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: that vandalism had more to do with crowd mentality than

1126
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: individual characteristics. So in order to test his hypothesis, he

1127
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: and his team parked got two Oldsmobiles and they parked

1128
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: one in the South Bronx and the other in Palo Alto, California.

1129
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: They surveilled both cars and they watched happened to them. Now. Zimbardo,

1130
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: because he was a little bit racist, expected the Oldsmobile

1131
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 1: and the Bronx would be swiftly vandalized and torn apart.

1132
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: And he was right, but he was surprised that the

1133
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 1: first vandals were a white, well dressed family and not

1134
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: black teenagers. Um. Yeah, still, which is not go ahead. Yeah,

1135
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: I was going to say, because like and I'm saying

1136
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: it's completely anecdotally. It's because when you black and brown,

1137
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 1: you already know they're gonna blame me anyway. So I

1138
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: can't Now, I'm not going to touch that. You know

1139
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: what's gonna happen, like they come over and kill us,

1140
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, so yeah. He

1141
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: was surprised by this, but he felt that his central

1142
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: hypothesis was supported um the lack of community cohesion. This

1143
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: is his conclusion. The lack of community cohesion and the

1144
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 1: Bronx produced a sense of anonymity which gave people permission

1145
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: to commit acts of vandalism. He wrote, conditions that create

1146
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: social inequality and put some people outside of the conventional

1147
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: rewards structure of the society, make them in different to

1148
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: its sanctions, laws and implicit norms. Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, sentence,

1149
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: That is quite a sentence. So like, yeah, that happens

1150
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 1: to the old mobile and Harlem um or not Harlem

1151
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: in the bronx Um and the old mobile he parked

1152
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: in Palo Alto suffered a a somewhat different fate. According

1153
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: to the Washington Post quote, after a week long unremarkable

1154
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: steak out, Zimbardo's drove the car to the Stanford campus,

1155
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: where his research team aimed to prime vandalism by taking

1156
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: a sledgehammer to its windows. Upon discovering that this was

1157
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: stimulating and pleasurable, Zimbardo and his graduate students got carried away.

1158
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,479
Speaker 1: As Zimbardo described it, one student jumped on the roof

1159
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: and began stomping it. In two we're pulling out the

1160
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: door from its hinges. Another hammered away at the hood

1161
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: and motor, while the last one broke called the glass

1162
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: he could find the passers. The passers by the study

1163
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: had intended to observe, had turned into spectators and only

1164
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: joined in after the car was already wrecked. Zimbardo's conclusions

1165
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 1: were the stuff of liberal criminology. Anyone, even Stanford researchers,

1166
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 1: could be lured into vandalism, and this is particularly true

1167
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 1: in places like the Bronx with heightened social inequalities. For Zimbardo,

1168
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: what happened in the Bronx and at Stanford suggested that

1169
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: crowd mentality, social inequalities, and community anonymity could prompt good

1170
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: citizens to act destructively. This was no radical critique. It

1171
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: was an indictment of law and order politics that viewed

1172
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: vandalism as a senseless, unpardonable act. In a line that

1173
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 1: could have been lifted directly out of the countless riot

1174
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: reports published in the late nineteen sixties, Zimbardo asserted vandalism

1175
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 1: is rebellion with a cause, m which so yeah, yeah, yeah,

1176
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: I I can't. I can't speak to the accuracy of

1177
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: Zimbardo's conclusions about the Bronx, particularly like his his attitudes

1178
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: about community there. Also, it was not a place he

1179
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: understood very well. Um, and he was clearly a manned

1180
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: with some biases. Uh. But I can't argue with his

1181
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 1: conclusions about Palo Alto because in part of what I

1182
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: saw in riot night in Portland, which was the night

1183
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 1: after the Third Precinct in Minneapolis burned. Um, I know that,

1184
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: like you know, people rioted in Portland. They fucked up

1185
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: the Justice Center and like lit it on fire and

1186
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 1: they destroyed like they damaged a lot of the luxury

1187
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: shopping district and looted it and it was blamed on

1188
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 1: like antifo white anarchist kids. But like I was there,

1189
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: it was a pretty fucking broad cross section of the population.

1190
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: Who was You can tell. I've seen enough people break windows.

1191
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: You can tell when someone knows how to break a window,

1192
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: and when someone is breaking a window for the first time,

1193
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 1: A lot of first time window a lot of a

1194
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 1: lot of experienced window breakers in that crowd. Don't get

1195
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 1: me wrong, a lot of first time window breakers. He

1196
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 1: just got taken in by the moment. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah,

1197
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: so yeah. I I think that that's probably accurate that,

1198
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 1: like most vandalism that happens in times like these, is

1199
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: not the result of people who are as a lot

1200
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 1: of folks, I could portray them inherently criminal. Um, not

1201
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 1: that I even comfortable like judging people on that basis,

1202
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: but I think most of that kind of vandalism is

1203
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 1: just like, oh, fuck it, I can get away with

1204
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 1: this now, yeah I want to like yeah, yeah, I'm

1205
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: angry and like I feel like this is an option.

1206
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 1: Now let's do it. Yeah now, um so yeah. The

1207
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: Oldsmobile study was actually not very influential initially, and it's

1208
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: sort of languished in the annals of academic history for

1209
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: a decade and a half until Wilson and Kelling, the

1210
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 1: guys who wrote that Atlantic article in the Broken Windows theory,

1211
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 1: until they came across it. So they didn't listen to

1212
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: anything Zimbardo had actually said about crowd mentality and community

1213
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: and anonymity. They kind of ignored all of the actual

1214
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: conclusions in the study um and took from it only

1215
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 1: the fact that quote, one unrepaired broken window is a

1216
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: signal that no one cares, and so breaking more windows

1217
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: costs nothing. So both of these guys cite the Zimbardo

1218
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: theory as the entire academic basis of their theory on crime.

1219
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 1: H the Zimbardo study, but they actually interpreted it in

1220
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: a way that ran come completely at odds to the

1221
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,439
Speaker 1: person conducting the studies own conclusions. And I'm gonna quote

1222
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: from the Washington Post again. Their misleading recap of Zimbardo's

1223
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: study not only conflated the Stanford and Palo Alto experiments,

1224
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: but so distorted the order of events that it routed

1225
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: readers away from Zimbardo's conclusions. In their version, the car

1226
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 1: and Palo Alto sat untouched for more than a week,

1227
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: then Zimbardo smashed part of it with a sledgehammer. Soon

1228
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 1: passers by were joining in. Where they conveniently neglected to

1229
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 1: mention was that the researchers themselves had laid waste to

1230
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: the car. By admitting this crucial detail, Wilson and Kelly

1231
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: manipulated Zimbardo's experiment to draw a straight line between one

1232
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 1: broken window and a thousand broken windows. This enabled them

1233
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 1: to claim that all it took was a broken window

1234
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: to transform staid Palo Alto into the Bronx where no

1235
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: one cared. The problem is it wasn't a broken window

1236
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 1: that enticed onlookers to join the fray. It was the

1237
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 1: spectacle of faculty and students destroying an oldsmobile in the

1238
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: middle of Stanford's campus. Like yes, no one did it. Yeah,

1239
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, that professor's sucking up, Like yeah, it

1240
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 1: seems like it's cool. Now let's do Yeah. Like people

1241
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 1: if they if someone's like, hey, it's actually there's a

1242
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: car people are sucking up and it's okay, it's perfectly legal.

1243
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: Do you want to funk up a car a little bit?

1244
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: Most people are gonna be like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's

1245
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,600
Speaker 1: it's so intuitive. And if I just see like a

1246
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: smashed window on a car, that's not gonna make me

1247
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: go I'm gonna smash that dude's window too. I'm gonna

1248
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 1: be like, oh, that fool's backpack I've stolen, Like I'm

1249
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: gonna think, you know what I'm saying, poor guy, Like,

1250
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,839
Speaker 1: it's not gonna go. Oh, nobody cares on this street.

1251
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: Speaking as someone who spends a lot of time in

1252
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 1: the Bay Area. I never go to San Francisco and

1253
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 1: don't see at least one car with a smashed out window.

1254
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: And I never see all of the windows around that

1255
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: car smashed. In fact, it's usually in a nice neighborhood. Still,

1256
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 1: it's just the thing they do in Sanford they fun

1257
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 1: up car windows and stealership inside cars. Don't do stuff

1258
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: in your car. In San Francisco, they don't break everything. Yeah,

1259
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: that was my lesson was like, hey, dude, don't leave

1260
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: your backpack in the car. The story, don't leave your

1261
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 1: backpack in the car. It is a meme in San Francisco.

1262
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:03,760
Speaker 1: Never leave anything any And by the way, when I

1263
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 1: had my car broken into in San Francisco, I was

1264
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:10,560
Speaker 1: parked directly in front of the Mission Police precincts. Like,

1265
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: we went into report it and the officer said, what

1266
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:18,679
Speaker 1: do you want us to do about it? Right? Okay,

1267
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: tost cot copper. Everyone wasn't while they're nail, they'll nail it.

1268
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 1: Like it was one I remember now saying like my

1269
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 1: uh my freaking speakers and amp got stolen out of

1270
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 1: my car. And it's kind of the same thing. That

1271
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 1: cop was like, what what you want me to do man. Yeah,

1272
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, touche. I mean, you know what I want

1273
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: you to do is when I talk about police abolition,

1274
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 1: not be like, who are you going to call if

1275
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 1: someone robs you? Because here we are, because it's not

1276
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 1: and you just told me you're not going to do that. Dang. Yeah. Um.

1277
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: So I first read that article about like the how

1278
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: the broken windows police and guys had like fucked up

1279
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: Zimbardo's study years before I came across like the basics

1280
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: of or years after I'd come across the basics of

1281
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 1: broken windows policing theory during I I took criminal justice

1282
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 1: for a while in college. I wanted to be in

1283
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: law enforcement at one point um, and reading that kind

1284
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 1: of like dissection of this foundational theory and modern law

1285
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: enforcement was pretty shocking and impactful to me. But I

1286
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,839
Speaker 1: didn't know half the real story until I read Alex

1287
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:24,599
Speaker 1: Fatalities The End of Policing this year. Fatality points out

1288
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: that the core of broken windows theory is the idea

1289
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,639
Speaker 1: that people have latent destructive traits that are unleashed without

1290
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:35,559
Speaker 1: constant pressure from authority to conform and behave. Fatality writes, quote,

1291
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: the emergence of this theory in nineteen eight two is

1292
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: tied to a larger arc of urban neo conservative thinking

1293
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 1: going back to the nineteen sixties. Wilson's former mentor and collaborator,

1294
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: Edward Banfield, a close associate of neoliberal economist Milton Friedman

1295
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:52,559
Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago, parented many of the ideas

1296
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,719
Speaker 1: that came to make up the new conservative consensus on cities.

1297
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,679
Speaker 1: Banfield's big work was the nineteen seventy book The Unheavenly City,

1298
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: which is basically an extended argument that poor people and

1299
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: this is me now not vitality. The Unheavenly City is

1300
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: an extended argument that poor people can't be helped and

1301
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,600
Speaker 1: so welfare programs are a waste of money. Here's a

1302
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: quote from Banfield's book, and this is again like the

1303
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: mentor of of Wilson, the guy who is one of

1304
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 1: the main architects, one of the two architects of the

1305
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 1: broken Windows theory. So here's what it writes. Although he

1306
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 1: has more leisure than almost anyone, the indifference apathy, if

1307
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 1: one prefers of the lower class person, is such that

1308
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: he seldom makes even the simplest repairs to the place

1309
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: that he lives. In he is not troubled by dirt

1310
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 1: or dilapidation, and he does not mind the inadequacy of

1311
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: public facilities such as schools, parks, hospitals, and libraries. Indeed,

1312
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,760
Speaker 1: where such things exist, he may destroy them by carelessness

1313
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:48,680
Speaker 1: or even by vandalism. Oh my gosh, right now, yeah,

1314
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 1: it makes you realize. Yeah, it's just what justlike what

1315
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: do you know about being poor? Go in any poor

1316
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: person's house. They have fixed more of their own ship

1317
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,760
Speaker 1: than you know how to. But like, yes, there's that

1318
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: I've always put like the like broken window, uh, stopping

1319
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 1: frisk and then like kind of the like gang in

1320
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,800
Speaker 1: junctions and street sweepers, like I've always kind of like

1321
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: in my head without any actual research, like lumped them

1322
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 1: all together under the like the theory that you just presented,

1323
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 1: which is that like, ultimately we don't care about our

1324
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 1: neighborhoods unless we have authoritative powers that keep us in line.

1325
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 1: Like I've kind of lumped it under that thought and

1326
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 1: that that's that's what law enforcement thinks about us, you

1327
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:38,679
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like that, it's still the broken

1328
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 1: window thing. So when I the gang in junctions, will

1329
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 1: I don't know if if we're if we're even gonna

1330
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 1: cover that. But like I've always kind of seen them

1331
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:49,679
Speaker 1: because they were all around. It was all that eighties

1332
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 1: and nineties like policing that that that turned me into

1333
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 1: the like policing don't work, you know activists that I am.

1334
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,160
Speaker 1: Now it's like under that sort of thinking. I know,

1335
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: if they aught together, but it's but him the statement

1336
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 1: you just said, the idea of again saying that like

1337
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 1: ultimately your animals unless we keep you in line. Yes,

1338
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: it's just all makes sense. Now that's clearly how you

1339
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:18,600
Speaker 1: think of us. Yes, yes, and it will become clearer

1340
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:23,679
Speaker 1: where all of yeah, yeah, so uh. Banfield basically thought

1341
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 1: that cities ought to be abandoned because they were just

1342
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 1: inherently criminal places. Um and his protege Wilson, took a

1343
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 1: different tax, arguing that cities had been great once and

1344
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,719
Speaker 1: could be halted in their decline and made great again

1345
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 1: because if only the cause of that decline were properly recognized.

1346
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 1: Wilson identified liberal politicians and of course, the moral failings

1347
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: of black communities, as the chief clause of urban decline.

1348
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 1: Vitality writes that Wilson quote argued that liberals had unwittingly

1349
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:53,760
Speaker 1: unleashed urban chaos by undermining the formal social control mechanisms

1350
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,759
Speaker 1: that made city living possible. By supporting the more radical

1351
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: demands of the later urban expressions of the civil rights

1352
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 1: movement that it's so weakened the police, teachers, and other

1353
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:06,799
Speaker 1: government forces of behavioral regulation that chaos came to rain. Wilson,

1354
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 1: following Banfield, believed strongly that there were profound limits on

1355
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 1: what the government could do to help the poor. Financial

1356
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 1: investment in them would be squandered, new services would go

1357
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 1: unused or be destroyed. They would continue in their slothful

1358
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 1: and destructive ways. Since the root of the problem was

1359
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 1: either an essentially moral or cultural failure or a lack

1360
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 1: of external controls to regulate inherently destructive human urges, the

1361
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 1: solution had to take the form of punitive social control

1362
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:36,280
Speaker 1: mechanisms to restore order and neighborhood stability. Wilson's views were

1363
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 1: informed by a borderline racism that emerged as a mix

1364
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: of biological and cultural explanations for the inferiority of poor blacks. Wilson, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1365
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 1: thoughts like just like the religious right, and like yeah,

1366
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I'm I'm I grew up with

1367
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 1: church boy, you know what I'm saying, Like I still

1368
01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: got a lot of stuff still serves me well, but

1369
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 1: like I'm just thinking about out like just that, like

1370
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: that like why Western evangelical, Like well, like okay, the

1371
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 1: breakdown of the family. It's like there's no dad's in

1372
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:10,760
Speaker 1: the homes and that's the problem. And like in the

1373
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 1: black community, your fathers are missing, so y'all have no

1374
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: direction and just hearing all that stuff, you know from

1375
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:18,720
Speaker 1: these people that are supposed to be taking care of you,

1376
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: So like how just how? And then when you get

1377
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 1: get of age and you realize not, I think y'all

1378
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: just racist, like when it kind of like clicks, just

1379
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:33,280
Speaker 1: the like crisis of like faith that you have at

1380
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: that moment where you're just like I don't, I can't.

1381
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,479
Speaker 1: I'm actually not welcome here. I thought I was welcome here.

1382
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: I'm not welcome here anyway, going yeah, yeah, So back

1383
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 1: to Wilson a little bit, because this is the next

1384
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:48,120
Speaker 1: part is important. No no no, no, no no. Um. Wilson

1385
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,440
Speaker 1: co authored the book Crime and Human Nature with Richard Hernstein,

1386
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 1: which argued that there were important biological determinants of criminality

1387
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 1: while race was not one of the core determinants, language

1388
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:00,760
Speaker 1: about i Q and body type opened the door to

1389
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 1: a kind of sociobiology that led Hernstein to co author

1390
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 1: the openly racist The Bell Curve with Charles Murray, who

1391
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 1: was also a close associate of Wilson. So The Bell Curve,

1392
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:13,720
Speaker 1: if you're not aware, is a thoroughly to credit discredited

1393
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:15,240
Speaker 1: book about i Q and race that has earned a

1394
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: place of honor in every racist bookshelf. And so Wilson

1395
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 1: is friends with both of the authors of that, and

1396
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: works on a book with one of the authors of that.

1397
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:28,160
Speaker 1: This is the guy who co inventced broken windows theory

1398
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 1: of policing. Like, that's that's where he's swimming in. That's

1399
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 1: his fucking sea. Yeah, And it's so like hearing it

1400
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:38,440
Speaker 1: all together, it's so clear, you know, it's so obvious,

1401
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 1: you know, coupled with my own just experience, and just like,

1402
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 1: oh my god, it all its hearing it all together,

1403
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: it's just like, yes, yes, that's so, I'm not crazy.

1404
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: You really do think this about us, got it? Yep? Yeah,

1405
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 1: So the broken windows theory gave ideological cover to people

1406
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:01,599
Speaker 1: who want to empower were the US police to interfere

1407
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 1: more directly in the daily lives of more, particularly non

1408
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,519
Speaker 1: white people. Prevention of crime had been the goal since

1409
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: the days of Volmer, but what that mint had changed

1410
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: Now Poverty and social disorganization were seen as the results

1411
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: of crime, not the causes, and thus the best way

1412
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:20,759
Speaker 1: to reform society was to repeatedly punish people from minor

1413
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 1: criminal behavior. Vitality goes on broken windows policing? Is it root?

1414
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 1: A deeply conservative attempt to shift the burden of responsibility

1415
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,559
Speaker 1: for declining living conditions onto the poor themselves, and to

1416
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: argue that the solution to all social ills is increasingly aggressive,

1417
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 1: invasive and restrictive forms of policing that involved more arrests,

1418
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 1: more harassment, and ultimately more violence. Wow, so the solution

1419
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 1: of poverty ain't jobs, No, it's punishment. Yeah, you've gotta

1420
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 1: stop him from breaking breaking windows in their neighborhood by

1421
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:56,080
Speaker 1: arresting them for weed or whatever. Yeah. Yo. The nuance

1422
01:17:56,320 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 1: that like like like sna match that out the sky.

1423
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 1: The nuance of saying I'm gonna try to say it

1424
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:06,559
Speaker 1: like you like like the quote said, which he was

1425
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 1: like like the cause that the cause of crime was

1426
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:16,879
Speaker 1: not the poverty, the cause of poverty was the crime.

1427
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 1: And that's the part where I'm just like, there's your

1428
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: mistake there, it is, right, Um, if if if you've

1429
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,200
Speaker 1: ever heard the term like like a crime of survival,

1430
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 1: then like you understand what we're talking about here where

1431
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 1: it's just like you're you have that completely backwards, you

1432
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:40,360
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. If if you if you think

1433
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:44,120
Speaker 1: that the the cause of the poverty is the crime,

1434
01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:50,080
Speaker 1: rather than saying the cause of the crime is the poverty. Yeah,

1435
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 1: that is like that fundamental switch. Everything will start making

1436
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:58,360
Speaker 1: sense now when you when you understand that, like the

1437
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:02,080
Speaker 1: laws are the crime, the laws probably unjust already. So

1438
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,840
Speaker 1: this act of survival shouldn't be a crime in the

1439
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 1: first place because it's an active survival, right. But when

1440
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:11,840
Speaker 1: you understand it as just an act of survival, right,

1441
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,599
Speaker 1: then the idea of punishing a person for trying to

1442
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 1: survive seems preposterous because it yes, yeah so um. One

1443
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:26,040
Speaker 1: example of the violence caused by broken windows policing would

1444
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 1: be the famous and the tragic death of Eric Garner.

1445
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,000
Speaker 1: If you've forgotten, um, I know you haven't, but at

1446
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 1: home Garner was busted for selling cigarettes illegally, he was

1447
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:37,680
Speaker 1: choked to death by officers, and his famous cry I

1448
01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 1: can't breathe has probably become the most powerful slogan of

1449
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter movement. Um just kind of sums

1450
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:46,560
Speaker 1: everything up. Uh. You might be surprised to learn that

1451
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:48,640
Speaker 1: Garner's arrested not come as the result of like an

1452
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,520
Speaker 1: individual officer just sort of like rolling around the neighborhood

1453
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 1: and spotting a guy breaking the law and choosing to

1454
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 1: do something. It was actually ordered by the top brass

1455
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:01,280
Speaker 1: because the local business owners had complained about Gardners illegal

1456
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 1: cigarette sales harming their own businesses. So kind of back

1457
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,160
Speaker 1: to episode two here where we're talking about like the

1458
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 1: police are formed to protect Yeah, yeah, and it's good

1459
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 1: for you to point out like what the crime was.

1460
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:15,479
Speaker 1: It's yes, if you don't know this, it's a lucy.

1461
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:18,080
Speaker 1: It's when you just sell an individual cigarette, which is

1462
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:22,920
Speaker 1: like apparently a capital crime. Yes, yeah, and it is

1463
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:24,759
Speaker 1: a perfectly normal thing in a lot of the world

1464
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:27,840
Speaker 1: everywhere in the world. Like you you got ten dollars

1465
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 1: for a pack of cigarettes, so you're just trying to

1466
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:30,760
Speaker 1: bum one of them. You're gonna walk around be like

1467
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 1: bum a cigarette or I'll sell you one for a

1468
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:36,759
Speaker 1: dollar like that. This is a listen and listen to me. Guys,

1469
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 1: that's a crime. Yeah, you to say how ridiculous that

1470
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 1: sounds like you gotta fucking bosnia. You order a coffee,

1471
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 1: you'll get a cigarette with your coffee. But like, yeah,

1472
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 1: you do that here, you're you're breaking the law. Yeah, Uh,

1473
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 1: make cigarettes mandatory. I think is the right, the right

1474
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 1: way to solve this problem. It's it's easy, right, So

1475
01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:02,600
Speaker 1: the NYPD dispatched a sizeable force to bust Garner, a

1476
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: plane closes unit and two sergeants with uniformed backup, and

1477
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: the best case scenario from sending cops after him was

1478
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: that he would be stopped temporarily from selling Lucy's. Eric

1479
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:14,839
Speaker 1: had a long history of getting busted for petty crimes

1480
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 1: and going to jail. No sentence had dissuaded him from

1481
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 1: continuing to do this, um, so there was no chance

1482
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: of anything happening. But temporarily having this guy in jail

1483
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,360
Speaker 1: instead of selling loose cigarettes, that was the best case scenario. Yea,

1484
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 1: or just like go to another block, like all right,

1485
01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 1: this guy don't like me in front of his store,

1486
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go down the street, not really hard nobodies. Yeah,

1487
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 1: there was no garrets man. There was no way for

1488
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:41,760
Speaker 1: any meaningful public good to be gained by this interaction.

1489
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:45,000
Speaker 1: And again the pot the worst case scenario which happened

1490
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: is that Garner died, which is what happened. Now. The

1491
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:52,799
Speaker 1: NYPD instituted more use of force training for its patrol

1492
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: officers after Garner's death, so that the next guy the

1493
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:57,120
Speaker 1: state sent armed men after for the crime of selling

1494
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:00,160
Speaker 1: loose cigarettes would be less likely to get murdered. Um,

1495
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 1: but that didn't really doesn't really solve anything. As Alex

1496
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 1: Vitali notes, quote, such training ignores two important factors in

1497
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 1: Garner's death. The first is the officer's casual disregard for

1498
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:12,200
Speaker 1: his well being, ignoring his cries of I can't breathe

1499
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:15,960
Speaker 1: and they're seemingly indifferent reaction to his near lifelessness while

1500
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 1: awaiting an ambulance. This is a problem of values and

1501
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: seems to go to the heart of the claim that

1502
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 1: for too many police, black lives don't matter. The second

1503
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:27,000
Speaker 1: is broken windows style policing, which targets low level in

1504
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:31,679
Speaker 1: fractions for intensive, invasive and aggressive enforcement. Now, the death

1505
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 1: of Garner caused a flurry of national condemnation of the

1506
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 1: NYPD and a conflict between the department and Mayor build

1507
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 1: a Blasio. As you'll recall, the NYPD can't strike over

1508
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 1: this sort of thing, but they were angry that the

1509
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 1: mayor hadn't enthusiastically backed them when some of their own

1510
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 1: had committed murder. So they launched a slowdown, which is

1511
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:49,519
Speaker 1: basically a diet version of a strike. Is what we

1512
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: talked about a little bit earlier. For seven weeks, the

1513
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:54,559
Speaker 1: New York Police only went out in pairs, only left

1514
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:57,120
Speaker 1: their squad cars if they felt it was absolutely necessary,

1515
01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: and they avoided all proactive policing measures. This means that

1516
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 1: for the first time in decades, the NYPD stopped fucking

1517
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 1: with people who committed petty crimes and misdemeanors. The slowdown

1518
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:11,200
Speaker 1: ended eventually, but researchers wanted to learn what impact it

1519
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:13,880
Speaker 1: might have actually had on crime in the city. Their study,

1520
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:16,760
Speaker 1: published in the Nature Journal Human Behavior, was based on

1521
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: Foyed CompStat reports from two thousand and thirteen to two

1522
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,680
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen. These reports include weekly activity for each

1523
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:25,840
Speaker 1: NYPD precinct for all the rests and criminal activity. The

1524
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,919
Speaker 1: study found that, not surprisingly, the rate of criminal summons

1525
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 1: is and stopping frisks and arrests had declined massively during

1526
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:34,559
Speaker 1: the slowdown. This is what you'd expect because cops weren't

1527
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 1: doing that sort of work. But the researchers also found

1528
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 1: that civilian complaints of major crimes fell between three and

1529
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:46,920
Speaker 1: six percent during the same period. Civilians reported forty three

1530
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:50,559
Speaker 1: fewer felony assaults, forty fewer burglaries, and forty fewer acts

1531
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 1: of grand larceny. The drop in violent crime actually continued

1532
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:57,240
Speaker 1: for several months after the slowdown, leading to an estimated

1533
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 1: twenty one hundred fewer major crime plants. The study authors noted,

1534
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:06,280
Speaker 1: quote in their efforts to increase civilian compliance, certain policing

1535
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 1: tactics may inadvertently contribute to serious criminal activity. The implications

1536
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:15,120
Speaker 1: for understanding policing and a democratic society should not be understated.

1537
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,759
Speaker 1: The researchers directly addressed broken windows policing and the stop

1538
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,320
Speaker 1: in first style public order policing tactics introduced as a

1539
01:24:21,360 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 1: result of that theory. Quote. Our results imply not only

1540
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 1: that these tactics fail at their stated objective of reducing

1541
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 1: major legal violations, but also that the initial deployment of

1542
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 1: proactive policing can inspire additional crimes that later provide justification

1543
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:39,240
Speaker 1: for further increasing police stops, summons is and so forth.

1544
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 1: So so, so what you're saying is them not doing

1545
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 1: what they were doing actually helped. Yeah, if you had

1546
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 1: a DA who came in and said violent crime and like,

1547
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 1: complaints about major crimes by civilians dropped between three and

1548
01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:01,280
Speaker 1: six percent during my tenure, you could running for fucking

1549
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 1: state office, the general office on that ship, right, yeah. Yeah,

1550
01:25:05,479 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, we'll show you. I'll show you, guys,

1551
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:11,839
Speaker 1: how much you need us. Actually you are the problem. No, Actually,

1552
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 1: things actually seem a lot better. Actually it's fine, you

1553
01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 1: know what, keep going, keep slowing down, guys. You know,

1554
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: I wanted a single cigarette the other day. I bought it.

1555
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 1: Nobody got choked. Yeah, it was fine. Everything, it's actually okay.

1556
01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:30,479
Speaker 1: It seems like it's actually okay, dude. Yeah. I would

1557
01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:37,400
Speaker 1: love to somehow or another try to invoke just the

1558
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:45,360
Speaker 1: empathy and emotions of what like stopping frisk did psychologically,

1559
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,960
Speaker 1: you know, as a young man, you know, or just

1560
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 1: just as a person in that sort of context and environment.

1561
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:56,640
Speaker 1: And of course you know obviously that you know, Bloomberg

1562
01:25:57,080 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: didn't last in the in the he it was a

1563
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 1: joke anyway, you know what I'm saying. But like, um, so,

1564
01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:06,160
Speaker 1: so there was no way I could have ever voted

1565
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 1: for him because I know it's psychologically what stopping frisk

1566
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:11,280
Speaker 1: and like all that stuff did to us. But like,

1567
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 1: just I just think, think about what we're saying here

1568
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:20,719
Speaker 1: is you can get stopped and searched for nothing for

1569
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 1: the possibility that you might be doing something. So like

1570
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 1: it's just so moving about freely. You know, I brought

1571
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:33,679
Speaker 1: up again earlier, like because the the l a version

1572
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 1: of that was like the gang injunctions. So if you

1573
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:40,080
Speaker 1: were if if you and two of your friends happened

1574
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:42,799
Speaker 1: to be walking home from basketball practice in your clothes

1575
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:47,679
Speaker 1: kind of match, that's a gag, right, So no matter what,

1576
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:50,760
Speaker 1: if there's more than one of you, you're in a gang.

1577
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 1: So and and there's and there's a there's a there's

1578
01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:56,640
Speaker 1: a gang uptick. So like let's just say you do

1579
01:26:56,720 --> 01:26:59,160
Speaker 1: commit a petty crime or you were involved with a

1580
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:02,200
Speaker 1: committing with a petty crime, if you were with someone

1581
01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 1: that was either in the in the system as a

1582
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:09,240
Speaker 1: gang member or it was more than one of you,

1583
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 1: you can get the gang up charge. So that just

1584
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:14,639
Speaker 1: adds five years, right, even if something only took six

1585
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:16,640
Speaker 1: even if it was like a petty crime and it

1586
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:19,000
Speaker 1: was only like six to eight months probation, if you

1587
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 1: get the gang uptick is five years, right. So I

1588
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 1: it was dudes that like disappeared off the streets. We

1589
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:29,559
Speaker 1: didn't until we were in college because of this stuff.

1590
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:33,479
Speaker 1: And so they came out of prison gangsters. They didn't

1591
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 1: go in gangsters that came out, you know. So like

1592
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:42,439
Speaker 1: I I'm ranting, but like like please understand the psychological

1593
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:52,960
Speaker 1: like part of that. Yeah, shit good you just you

1594
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:56,080
Speaker 1: just like just the I mean, I'm a full grown man.

1595
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 1: I paid freaking property taxes, I'm working on a damn

1596
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:03,640
Speaker 1: home loan right now, and I still whenever I just

1597
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:06,120
Speaker 1: hear that whoa, whoa, my body is still just kind

1598
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:10,320
Speaker 1: of like uh yeah, Like that's the fucking thing to me,

1599
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:13,680
Speaker 1: is like, like we talked such a fucking good game

1600
01:28:13,720 --> 01:28:17,760
Speaker 1: in this country about what freedom is, and if you

1601
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:21,759
Speaker 1: live in a country, we're a huge percentage, if not most,

1602
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:24,200
Speaker 1: because fucking white people feel this way when they hear

1603
01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 1: the woolp of the police st everyone scared of them.

1604
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 1: If you've got this unaccountable group of armed people who

1605
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:34,880
Speaker 1: can funk up your day and possibly the rest of

1606
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 1: your life at any moment for no reason, even if

1607
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:39,800
Speaker 1: you haven't done something wrong and experience no consequences. If

1608
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:46,280
Speaker 1: that's built into your system, you're not free. Whatever nebulous

1609
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 1: concept freedom is, that's not it. It's not it. Yeah, Um,

1610
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:54,360
Speaker 1: go back to the script. Yeah, the script is, the

1611
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:56,439
Speaker 1: script is done. This is this is what we had

1612
01:28:56,479 --> 01:29:00,280
Speaker 1: for today. Um. Yeah, we're gonna talk about the exist

1613
01:29:00,360 --> 01:29:02,919
Speaker 1: Rangers some which will be fun, and the militarization of police.

1614
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:06,200
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about the TV show Cops. Yeah, that'll

1615
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:08,080
Speaker 1: be That'll be it for a little serious which is

1616
01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:11,559
Speaker 1: going to leave out just so much stuff, but doing

1617
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,679
Speaker 1: doing the best we can over here. Man, I hope.

1618
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:18,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this on record that like, man, what

1619
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:22,639
Speaker 1: you've done for the cause by doing this you and Sophie, Like, man,

1620
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 1: y'all don't put yah, don't put stones and slingshots, boy by,

1621
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:31,480
Speaker 1: Like this is just seven to ten hours of receipts

1622
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:35,400
Speaker 1: that you know what I'm saying, Like, man, we appreciate

1623
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 1: this work. I know. I'm a part of But I

1624
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:41,920
Speaker 1: appreciate y'all for doing this. I mean, I think it's like,

1625
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, it came at a certain point, like during

1626
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:50,760
Speaker 1: covering the protests, where like things were starting to die down,

1627
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 1: in part because like people were getting exhausted, in part

1628
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:55,759
Speaker 1: because the police got in trouble for all of the violence,

1629
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:58,120
Speaker 1: and it was like, what's the next thing to do.

1630
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 1: It's make sure everybody like you want to you want

1631
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 1: to keep people. People have to be angry about this

1632
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:06,160
Speaker 1: for a long time if it's going to change, right,

1633
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:08,559
Speaker 1: this is like, this is this is a long fight.

1634
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,960
Speaker 1: This is not going We're not gonna like, no one's

1635
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:14,680
Speaker 1: gonna like, like, in order to get one police department

1636
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:18,120
Speaker 1: taken down in Minneapolis, and it hasn't yet happened, but

1637
01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: it looks like it's going to happen, they had to

1638
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:25,679
Speaker 1: burn a precinct. Like it was hard. Yeah, yeah, they

1639
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:29,120
Speaker 1: they they fought like they fought like motherfucker's just to

1640
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 1: take that down. Um, and that's just not going to

1641
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:36,439
Speaker 1: happen nationwide. And but I we still need to stop this,

1642
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:37,800
Speaker 1: and the only way to do that is to get

1643
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:41,160
Speaker 1: enough people angry long enough that they wear them down.

1644
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:43,120
Speaker 1: This is not like, it's not as simple as a

1645
01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:45,559
Speaker 1: vote in better people, And anyone who says that, like, okay, well,

1646
01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:47,960
Speaker 1: the real way to fix this is vote is lying

1647
01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:50,439
Speaker 1: to you. Voting is one part of the effort. And

1648
01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 1: the only way voting works is if there is like

1649
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 1: clearly enough rage and and anger and um and and

1650
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 1: activity in the street that it necessitates action. That number one,

1651
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:04,479
Speaker 1: local governments are scared by the number of people out

1652
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 1: in the streets and realize that we're all gonna lose

1653
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:10,280
Speaker 1: our fucking jobs if we don't do something. Um and also,

1654
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:13,520
Speaker 1: physically exhausting the police is a part of it. Um

1655
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:15,800
Speaker 1: running out there fucking budgets is a part of it.

1656
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:19,120
Speaker 1: Making them realize that they are not making it. Making

1657
01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:22,400
Speaker 1: it not pleasurable to be an officer because people don't

1658
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:25,200
Speaker 1: view you positively is a part of it. For all

1659
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:26,519
Speaker 1: of like, all of this is a part of it.

1660
01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 1: Getting rid of cops was I think a bigger part

1661
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:30,640
Speaker 1: of it than a lot of people realize. And I

1662
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:34,320
Speaker 1: my hope with this is that it it helps keep

1663
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:38,800
Speaker 1: people angry enough to stay in the fight and make

1664
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:42,640
Speaker 1: the changes happen. You ever heard of Carl von Klauswitz,

1665
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:47,439
Speaker 1: No Klauswitz was a German military he's like a he

1666
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 1: was a general, but he was also like a like.

1667
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 1: He wrote a lot about strategy. He was He's very

1668
01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:55,280
Speaker 1: influential in the field of like thinking about how to

1669
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 1: to conduct war. And Klauswitz had a definition of war

1670
01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:02,280
Speaker 1: that is not all not not everyone agrees with it,

1671
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 1: but I find it really compelling. He defined war as

1672
01:32:04,960 --> 01:32:11,519
Speaker 1: the continuation of politics through other means. Um. And police

1673
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:13,280
Speaker 1: have been talking about how there's a war on police

1674
01:32:13,280 --> 01:32:14,680
Speaker 1: for a very long time, and I think that the

1675
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:17,920
Speaker 1: actual falling number over forty years, you know, the number

1676
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:19,800
Speaker 1: of police officers killed and wounded the line of duty

1677
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 1: is continually fallen. Um. I don't think it's accurate in

1678
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:25,400
Speaker 1: like the literal sense, but I do think you can

1679
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:28,080
Speaker 1: look at what the police have been doing and stopping

1680
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:30,360
Speaker 1: frisk is a big part of it as a war

1681
01:32:30,560 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 1: on the people of this country and responding in kind.

1682
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:36,160
Speaker 1: It's not it's not a sitting in the trenches with

1683
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 1: a rifle. It's not necessarily even on our side of things,

1684
01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:41,840
Speaker 1: it's not a it's not a doing violence to human

1685
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:44,840
Speaker 1: beings war, but it's it's not dissimilar from the kind

1686
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 1: of war that like the Russian government has been attempting

1687
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:50,559
Speaker 1: to carry out in places like Ukraine and Georgia. It

1688
01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 1: is a it is a very complicated conflict, but it

1689
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:58,920
Speaker 1: is a it is a conflict. UM. And yeah, I

1690
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:03,679
Speaker 1: hope that this is has provided some some additional munitions. Yes,

1691
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:08,120
Speaker 1: and it has good on you. Well, prop you want

1692
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:10,760
Speaker 1: to plug your plug doubles before we roll out? I do.

1693
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:15,000
Speaker 1: This is uh, this is prop hip hop over here. Uh,

1694
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 1: website and Instagram and all those things are prop hip

1695
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:25,960
Speaker 1: hop dot com. Um, there's cups and T shirts and

1696
01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:33,000
Speaker 1: music uh in other podcasts that I'm part of. Um,

1697
01:33:33,120 --> 01:33:37,000
Speaker 1: and I am don't have anything else to plug because

1698
01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm reliving my teen years in my head right now. Shit. Yeah,

1699
01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:47,280
Speaker 1: and I am very happy to be a part of this.

1700
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:50,120
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to be heard. That's another reference that

1701
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 1: Sophie appreciate that you won't know what I'm talking about.

1702
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,160
Speaker 1: I I don't. I didn't get that at all. It's

1703
01:33:55,160 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 1: all good. It's coming to America, man, oh shit, Oh okay, yeah, okay.

1704
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:05,639
Speaker 1: So at some point, Chris Daniel, whoever doing this, do

1705
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:08,680
Speaker 1: not cut this part out. At some point when all

1706
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:13,080
Speaker 1: this ship is over Sophie and I. We're going to

1707
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:17,680
Speaker 1: spend one to two days at least, and I am

1708
01:34:17,760 --> 01:34:23,519
Speaker 1: just going to indoctrinate you in all of just black

1709
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 1: culture references, urban culture references that you should know. And

1710
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:32,160
Speaker 1: I just like, and you would appreciate, you know what

1711
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:34,240
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm just like, I need you to know

1712
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 1: these jokes. I think that's a great idea. Actually, yeah

1713
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:39,920
Speaker 1: we can. I mean, I know I need to. I've

1714
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:41,360
Speaker 1: been told for a while I need to watch do

1715
01:34:41,439 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 1: the right thing. I think that's it correct. Yeah. Yeah.

1716
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:46,759
Speaker 1: And then there's the other there's the one that's about

1717
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:52,560
Speaker 1: the fucking like the fast food joint or something, and like, um,

1718
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:59,320
Speaker 1: I don't even know where you're going, Okay, maybe yeah, Yeah,

1719
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:02,400
Speaker 1: you gotta do Harlem Nights. You gotta watch, you gotta

1720
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:04,800
Speaker 1: watch do the right thing. You need to see soul food,

1721
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:07,200
Speaker 1: you gotta see the color purple, you gotta see Friday

1722
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:11,120
Speaker 1: at We got to catch you up, man, because yeah,

1723
01:35:11,479 --> 01:35:14,160
Speaker 1: and I feel like you'd appreciate all these Yeah, No,

1724
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:16,040
Speaker 1: do the right thing is the one that I was

1725
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 1: thinking about. That's the one at the pizza shop. Yeah,

1726
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:21,400
Speaker 1: the pizza shop, Yeah, the right Yeah. Okay, okay, all right,

1727
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 1: you need to know the radio. Rahim is, yeah, you

1728
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:25,840
Speaker 1: got to know this stuff. We will do this all right,

1729
01:35:26,479 --> 01:35:29,400
Speaker 1: but first we're going to go away and come back

1730
01:35:29,439 --> 01:35:33,280
Speaker 1: on Thursday. Talk about the police for like another ninety minutes.

1731
01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 1: So buckle buckle up for that. Lads and ladies, boyos

1732
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:45,800
Speaker 1: and non binarios. And there's not enough good slang yet.

1733
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:49,160
Speaker 1: It hasn't caught up to changes in our cultural conversation.

1734
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:57,679
Speaker 1: We can end the podcast alright, alright, Oh boy, there's

1735
01:35:57,720 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 1: a threat about wanting to hear me wrap on the

1736
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:03,439
Speaker 1: at it. That's probably a bad idea. Oh that's happening.

1737
01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 1: Brom Behind the Police is a production of I Heart Radio.

1738
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:12,960
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the i

1739
01:36:13,040 --> 01:36:17,280
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.