1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. It happened all 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: at once. My brother and I are sitting naked in 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: the bath, playing with our toy boats, listening to the 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: music and the sound of muffled voices from the next room. 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: We are swallowed in red and green wool blankets and 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: ready for sleep. Storytime pajamas, the rubbing of tired eyes. 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: Good night canyon, good night mountain, good night building, good 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: night stars. Crans are put away, cubbies, clean teeth, brush. 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: I drift to sleep, and I'm rattled awake, surprised to 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: see my mother's face with her shaved head, her hazel 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: green eyes, her round Dutch cheeks, and crooked yellow, coffee 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: stained teeth. 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: I go wake up. We have to leave. It's not 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: safe here. 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 3: That's mikel Joli, musician, frontman of the indie rock band 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: Airborne Toxic Event and author of the recent memoir Hollywood Park. 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 3: Michel's is a story about trauma and real resilience, the 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 3: scars that remain and the ones healed by time, hard work, 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 3: and an extraordinary human spirit determined to survive, thrive, and 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 3: grow strong against all odds. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: is family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 22 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 23 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:32,919 Speaker 3: keep from ourselves. 24 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: I was born in a place called Synanon, which was 25 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: what I understood as a child. I was told it 26 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: was a commune. We now understand it was cult. I 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: was born inside the orphanage that existed in that cult. 28 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: It's funny because I'm like, we talked about family secrets here, right, 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: and like one of the secrets of my family was 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: that this was abusive and not something that was ever 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: explained to us because we were told we were put 32 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: into this school. And what happened was the leader of 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: the cult decided that rather than be the children of 34 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: your parents, everyone would be the children. 35 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: Of the society. 36 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: So there was like a six month period you were 37 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: kind of like you were born, and then you could 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: be with your mom and breastfeed and all that kind 39 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: of stuff in a place called the hatchery. There's these 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: wonderful nineteen seventies, sixties or welling in terms. 41 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: So you went from the hatchery to the school. 42 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: And then in the school you were raised apart from 43 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: your parents and not like day to day like I 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 1: mean you see your parents for a couple hours, maybe 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: every few weeks, once a month. 46 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 2: Some kids went years. 47 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: And it was a tough place to grow up because 48 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: essentially what they created, and I don't think they chose 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: to create this on purpose, but they created, you know, 50 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: an orphanage. We were raised by people we didn't know. 51 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: We were handed off from different people months years of 52 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: our lives where we don't really know who raised us. 53 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: And Sinadam was a place we went to get clean 54 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: off of heroin or alcoholism, I guess to some extent, 55 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 1: but mostly heroin. And so people were like two three 56 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: weeks off kicking heroin and suddenly thrust into the school 57 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: in some role or another. 58 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 3: How many kids more or less were in the school 59 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: during the time that you were there, Yeah. 60 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: I think all told, there was maybe four hundred kids 61 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: that came through, and at any given moment, I think 62 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: at its height, maybe one hundred, one hundred and fifty 63 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: were with the most. 64 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: Ever, at one time. 65 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: We were raised just to believe that the society was 66 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: our parent, and I think that the thinking was in 67 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: this kind of like backwards culting nineteen seventies kind of 68 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: way of thinking, was that like, well, this way the 69 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: parents won't pass off, you know, their cycles of violence 70 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: and trauma and addiction to their kids. 71 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: But of course it just meant we were orphans. 72 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: Just meant that we didn't have basic people who loved 73 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: us and took care of us. I mean there was 74 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: no birthday celebrations, there was no Christmas or hunting or 75 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: anything like that. 76 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: Certainly no extended family. 77 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 3: And you're brother, Tony was also, Yeah, he's three years older. 78 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: I was in the lower school, he was in the 79 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: upper school. 80 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: I think the upper school was a lot rougher than 81 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: the lower school. I think that's where they were particularly 82 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: lax about who interacts with the kids and what the 83 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: interaction and supervision of the children were. And I mean 84 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: every kid was abused, every kid was beaten, every kid 85 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: was humiliated. 86 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: Just about every kid was molested. I mean, you name it. 87 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: So we escaped when I was very young, and we 88 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: did have to escape, and this woman showed up. So 89 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: we're in this like world of everyone shaved heads and 90 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 1: overalls and boots, and you know, one day, this woman 91 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: shows up who we understand is our mom. But the 92 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: term doesn't have much particular meaning to us because we 93 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: don't really know what a mom. 94 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: Is, right, Do you understand each other to be brothers? 95 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? 96 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: I think we did, but we didn't really know what 97 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: it meant. 98 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: You know, we just knew we were brothers, and I 99 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: think it was just kind of this vague term, just 100 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: like mom was or dad was. We didn't really know 101 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: what any terms meant because there was no sort of 102 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: traditional family structure. So one as she shows up and 103 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: she says, all right, it's not safe here and we 104 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: have to leave because the place had started to practice violence, 105 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 1: which you know, it started as a non violent place. 106 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: And we left. We kind of escaped in. 107 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: The early morning into a car where my grandfather was waiting. 108 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: From there, you know, it was just so so odd. 109 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: We'd never seen a skyscraper before, we'd never been in 110 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: a restaurant before. 111 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: We didn't know what, you know. 112 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: We went from there, we were in Marine County, went 113 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: from there to Oakland, well San Jose, and then at 114 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: Berkeley and Oakland, and just like we had never seen 115 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: any of these things before, and it was it was 116 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: just such a bizarre world to the world just seems 117 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: so big. We've been on this dirt road leading to 118 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: the compound and we'd gone into town before. I guess 119 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: there's a town in Tamas Bay nearby the compound where 120 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: we were, and. 121 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: That was about that was the big city for us. 122 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: It was like a main street with one stop with 123 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: one stop light, and then all the kids, all of 124 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: us were just you know, with shaved heads and overalls 125 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: and all the towny kids stay or not is because 126 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: I think we probably looked like weird CULTI kids, which 127 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: I suppose we were. 128 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 2: But you know, it wasn't our choice, it was our parents' choice. 129 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: So I think it was always just kind of confusing 130 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: for us. 131 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: Mckel ends up living with his grandmother and grandfather, people 132 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: he had never met before. 133 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: They were very well off. 134 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: My mom had been raised in the Hague in Holland 135 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,119 Speaker 1: and you know, raised by nannies, and my grandfather owned 136 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: a shipping company and they were well to do family. 137 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: And she was like, you know, the. 138 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: Hippie that sort of defied all expectations and rebelled against 139 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 1: the society that they'd raised her among. 140 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: I think she was kind of angry and a bit 141 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 2: of a utopian. 142 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm probably just kind of a damaged kid because also 143 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: my grandmother was just a raging drunk just I don't 144 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: know if I'd ever seen or sober in my whole life. 145 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: She was always drunk by like eleven Am, and of 146 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: course resented that her daughter had become, you know, this hip. 147 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: She had been a free speech activist at Berkeley and 148 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: that eventually ended up in this utopian cult. So there 149 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: was a lot of tension over that. And you know, 150 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: at the time also we were living on the run. 151 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: We were told that the men, the bad men from 152 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: Synonam were coming to get us. The society thought that 153 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: she had kidnapped us because we weren't her kids. We 154 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: were Synanon's kids, and so we were always on the 155 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: lookout and we were never allowed to play outside because 156 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: who knew if these bad men were going to come and. 157 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 2: Take us away. 158 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: Michel's family is not alone in their escape from Synanon. 159 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: His mom's friend, Phil Ritter, a free speech activist and 160 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: anti nuclear activist, has also escaped, and after a short 161 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,239 Speaker 3: while staying with his grandparents, Mickel, his mom, and brother 162 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 3: relocate to live with Phil in his apartment in East Oakland. 163 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 3: One day, the apartment is broken into. They're not sure 164 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 3: if it was the bad men of Synanon who did it, 165 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 3: but they are scared, and they decide to move together 166 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 3: to a house in Berkeley. 167 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: Phil he had a daughter that lived with us as well, 168 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: and we all moved into this house. Again, we weren't 169 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: allowed to go outside, and he built a little playroom 170 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: for us in the garage. And I wouldn't say it 171 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: was quite a father figure, but he was. He was 172 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: a good guy, you know. He was kind to the 173 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: kids and a nice human being and just like the 174 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: gentlest soul you'd ever meet. We'd spent a lot of 175 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: time playing indoors and listening for the kids on the 176 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: street as they played, which is kind of heartbreaking. 177 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: We knew who the kids. 178 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: Were by like the sound of their bikes or what 179 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: game they were playing. And meanwhile, we're like locked in 180 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: this garage. So one day I guess my brother rebellious, 181 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: like I'm gonna go outside no matter what, and he was. 182 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: He was playing with the kids across the street. It's 183 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: like one of the rare days. He actually got out 184 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: and I was on the porch and Phil had gone 185 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: to get some groceries in his van. He had a 186 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: VW bus like any good hippie, and he came back 187 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: and I was on the porch and he closed the 188 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: door to his van and there was these two kind 189 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: of shadowy figures that came up behind him, and they 190 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: were these two men and they had these like flesh 191 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: colored masks on, you know, like nylon, like the way 192 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: bank robbers have over their faces. And it all happened 193 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: so quickly. I was just like, who are those guys? 194 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: And it was almost like is it Halloween? Are they playing? 195 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: Address up? I think it might have been my first 196 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: lovege thing. And one of them hit him over the 197 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: back and he fell on the ground, and then they 198 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: just started beating them. They had these two they had 199 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: clubs in their hands. They weren't like baseball bats. They 200 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: were like police clubs, batons kind of things, maybe a 201 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: little bit bigger. And we started screaming and bleeding, and 202 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: I hid behind the column on the porch and they 203 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: just wailed on them in the driveway and they straightened 204 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: up and said, you know, wor's McKell and Tony. And 205 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: then Tony was with all the kids because all the neighborhood 206 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: kids had sort of come to watch, and he was 207 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: across the street. But none of the kids knew our 208 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: name because we were just always hiding in the garage, 209 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: so nobody said anything, and eventually, you know, a neighbor 210 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: lady came out and told her told him to leave, 211 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: that she'd called the police, and they left, and then 212 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: the ambulance came and they took Phil away and he 213 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: was in a coma. 214 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: For about a month. And it was weird. I remember 215 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: just like catching like eyes with him. 216 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: He had this real sort of kind face and before 217 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: he passed out, like I was kind of peering out 218 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: from behind this column and I could see his eyes 219 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: and they were looking at me. And I remember the 220 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: expression on his face because there was there was like 221 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: a stillness to it after he sort of stopped screaming 222 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: and just kind of resigned to it, I guess. And 223 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: he told me later that all he was thinking about 224 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: at the time was that this is too much for 225 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: a kid Michael's age to witness. 226 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 2: Like what a good guy, right, I mean, the. 227 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: Thing that he was concerned about was was because he's 228 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: being beaten nearly to death, was he didn't want me 229 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: to have to see all this violence. 230 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that really strikes 231 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: me about your story is that this group of adults 232 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 3: in your life that includes both your parents and the 233 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 3: various people who came in and out of your life. 234 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: I mean, there were some doozies, but it also had 235 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: some very kind people who probably are a large part 236 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 3: of why we're even having this conversation. And you know 237 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 3: why you ended up in one piece. 238 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, if I saw a tweet the other day somebody 239 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: said I'd never join a cult, and I wanted to 240 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: write in back, like, no shit, nobody thinks they're joining. 241 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: Nobody. 242 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: People in cults don't know they're in cults. And my 243 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: parents thought they were in a nonviolent drug rehabilitation society, 244 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: which is kind of how it started. It was just 245 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: trying to get addicts clean and it did a pretty 246 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: good job of doing that, saved a lot of people's 247 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: lives first, and then you know, but then you isolate 248 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: people and you start getting groups think going, and then 249 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: there's kind of like this quirk of human psychology that 250 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: they tend to line up behind very often a narcissistic 251 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: and abusive man or whatever. And that's what happened in 252 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: our case. And it's not as if these people are 253 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: all trying. 254 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: To do mean things. 255 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: And definitely, you know, a difficult relationship with my mom 256 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: she you know, some ways in which I think she 257 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: maybe wasn't prepared to be a mother. But I don't 258 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: think she meant any harm to us, and she in 259 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: her heart wanted was best for us, and certainly my 260 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: dad did you know they meant well for us. They 261 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: just didn't know, you know, And looking back with hindsight, 262 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: it's very easy to pinpoint mistakes. I don't think they 263 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: were trying to do anything bad, particularly to the kids. 264 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 3: After the incident of Phil's beating, Michel's mom decides to 265 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: move her kids from this environment too. Once again they're 266 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: on the run. She gets a job at the state 267 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 3: mental hospital in Salem, Oregon, so that's where they'll sleep 268 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 3: and hide next. 269 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: I remember when we left and we packed up the 270 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: old white Vega that she'd gotten from my grandfather, and 271 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: we packed and head to Oregon. 272 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: I remember it was a rainy day and it was 273 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 2: just this. 274 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: Feeling in the air, like Man, we lost, Like I 275 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: knew it, even at that age. 276 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: I knew like Man. 277 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: Reagan was president, who was like the old nemesis for 278 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: my mom's free speech days at University of California, And 279 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: like Man, the. 280 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: Hippies just lost. 281 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: The cult hat devolved into violence, and then we would 282 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: fill again beaten, and everything has just kind of fallen apart. 283 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: It's like we went to Salem, Oregon to hide. 284 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: That was the feeling. I knew it. Then. We were 285 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 2: going to hide. 286 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: We're going to get on the other side of the mountains, 287 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: to this other part of the world, and we're going 288 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: to be safe from all this madness. 289 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: It's a pretty hard scrabble existence for the family in Salem. 290 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: Mckel and Tony are left on their own a lot 291 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 3: and there's never enough to eat. On the morning of 292 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 3: Michel's sixth birthday, when he wakes up, his dad is 293 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 3: sitting on the edge of his bed. 294 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: So I'd always been told about my dad that, you know, 295 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: he was he left us for a tramp. 296 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: That was the line I'd always heard my mom. 297 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: Dad left us for a tramp, because I guess he'd 298 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: remarried fairly quickly after he and my mom got divorced. 299 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: And you know, I'd always been told what a selfish 300 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: person he was, or how he wasn't there for us, 301 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: or how he'd left us, which is never how I 302 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: felt about him. You know, we would see him when 303 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: we were in Cinna, and he was just the warmest 304 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: guy and the kindest guy, and just this one of 305 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: these guys that when you're around him, you just feel good. 306 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: And you know, we were last key kids with a 307 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: single mom in Salem, Oregon, and it's tough to be 308 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: a single mom anyway. 309 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: But we were broke. 310 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we were living on powdered eggs and government 311 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: cheese and we would wait in the food line at 312 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: the church, at the food bank. We were on food 313 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: stamps and just just had no no money or anything. 314 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: And then you know, when you're the child of a 315 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: single mom, particularly you're a boy, you live in this 316 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: like hall of mirrors where there's like everyone says, well, 317 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: you're the man of the house, as if it's this 318 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: good thing, and you're like six, you know. 319 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: You're like, oh cool, I'm not ready for that at all. 320 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: Thanks thanks for letting me know. 321 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: And I think there's this like maternal fantasy of like 322 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: who you're going to become? 323 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: Like are you going to become one of these bad 324 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: men who leave? Or are you going to become like 325 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: one of these good men who are going to stick around? 326 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: And I always remember getting that up so much. It 327 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: was kind of heavy for my mom, it's. 328 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: Probably more than you know. It was really appropriate. 329 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: But you know, we were always around women, so we 330 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: knew the world of women really well. We could hear 331 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: my mom talking to her friends about like she's just 332 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: trying to date someone, just trying to find a good man, 333 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: just trying to have a man around. Just hope this 334 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: one works out, hope this guy is good. And then 335 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: of course my father, who left, was the love. 336 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: Of her life. And we knew the world. 337 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: Of tears and vulnerability and trying to make ends meet. 338 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: And every son, daughter or two of a single mother 339 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: knows this world, right, and that's where we were. 340 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: And then here comes our dad. 341 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: And our dad is like the most masculine, funny guy, 342 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: and he'd flown up from Los Angeles for one day 343 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: for my sixth birthday, and it. 344 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: Was just like magic. 345 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: It was like, oh my god, here's this tall guy. 346 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: I could walk down the street next to him and 347 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: he just felt like having your own private God. 348 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: Like it was just like. 349 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: I've got a Zeus and it's a it's a dad. 350 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: And there was a lot of single mothers and a 351 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: lot of last key kids on our street, and it 352 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: was just like the kids that would like bully us 353 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: and make fun of us. 354 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: Whatever. 355 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: Was sort of like like slink down a little bit, 356 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: like hello, sir, because we had a dad and he 357 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: could like throw a baseball across the entire you know, 358 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: baseball field, or he could eat a whole pizza or whatever, and. 359 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: He could swear, and he was so good at swearing 360 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: and didn't care about swearing in front of us. 361 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: And this was just like mind blowing to us because 362 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: we just never we'd never been around men. We just 363 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: knew the world of women, and you know, you as 364 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: a boy, like, am I going to become one of 365 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: those things? 366 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: Is that what I'm going to be? And which kind 367 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: of am I going to become? 368 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was very touching the way that you write 369 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 3: about studying him, trying to memorize him, trying to memorize 370 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 3: his mustache and memorize his you know, like the width 371 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: of his shoulders. 372 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, he had a walk, he had like a dip 373 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 2: to his wak. 374 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: You know, he was kind of a beat nick. He 375 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: wasn't quite a hippie, a littler than that, you know, 376 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: but he'd been in jail and out of jail. I'm 377 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: being a professional criminal for a while. But he could dance, 378 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. You know, he had a 379 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: swagger to him, and I had never seen anything like 380 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: this before. And he'd sit down and he'd say these words, 381 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: and he'd be like that asshole Reagan, like he I 382 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: never heard of Reagan refer to anything other than that asshole. 383 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: Like I thought Reagan's first name was that asshole. So 384 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: I was like twelve years old, like it was just 385 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: always that asshole Reagan, that son of a bitch Nixon, 386 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: that fucking carburetor. Like I remember him talking about his 387 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: old truck and I didn't even know what a carburetor was. 388 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: I just would nod my head, be like, that's right, Dad, 389 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: it's the fucking carburetor. 390 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 3: That's you, and that's the word. And then suddenly that's 391 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: the word for carburetor, right right. 392 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: And I would make it up because you know, you're 393 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: just trying to make up the man you think you're 394 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: going to become at that age. So i'd you'd be like, yeah, listen, mom, 395 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: something's wrong on my skateboard. I think it's the fucking carburetor. 396 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: But you know, you're just inventing. It's trying to imagine 397 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: the men we're going to become as we kind of 398 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: invent them from pieces of the men we have around us. 399 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: And that first, the first visit from your dad was 400 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 3: it was twenty four hours and then he was gone. 401 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 3: You woke up the next morning and he was gone, 402 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: and you knew he was going to be gone, so 403 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 3: you were you were trying to almost sort of imprint, 404 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 3: you know, like a duckling imprints, you know, sort of 405 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: as much of him on you as you possibly could well. 406 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: Also the other piece of it, he was a warm, 407 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: sunny guy. It's fun to be around, you know. His 408 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: whole life is warm guy, quick with a joke, quick 409 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: with a smile, very empathetic, listens, understands. And my mom 410 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: not a bad person or anything, but just like crippling depression. 411 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: And so she was always in her room. She was 412 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: always reading, she was always sad, she was always crying. 413 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: It was always like we. 414 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: Had to take care and with my dad we could 415 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: just be kids. 416 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. Later that year, Michel's father calls 417 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 3: him with a surprise. A woman gets on the phone 418 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: and says, hi, son. Michael recognizes the voice. He recognizes 419 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 3: being called son. This was someone he knew. This was Bonnie, 420 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 3: a woman who had been his primary caretaker back at 421 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 3: the Synanon orphanage in that otherwise dickenziean situation. Bonnie had 422 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: shown Michel love. She would call him son, and he 423 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 3: had thought of her as his mother more than his 424 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 3: actual mother. So when his dad calls and Bonnie is 425 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 3: there with him, Michel happy to hear her voice, but 426 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: he's also very confused as to why she and his 427 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 3: dad are together. 428 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: It was wild. 429 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: I mean I first of all, the way she says, 430 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: she said hellos thun and that happened to a fair 431 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: mountain Cinna. Onwards, some you know, one or another of 432 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: the kids would become really close with one of the 433 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: or another of the caretakers because he's just, you know, 434 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of little orphans performing for their dinner. 435 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: You know, orphans are cute. 436 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: They don't have anybody, and so they try to win 437 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: people over to being their person. That's kind of a 438 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: natural childish instinct. And you know, we could get into 439 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: the psychology of it and how damaging it all this 440 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: there's a reason we always end up as performers. And 441 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: I was close with her, and yeah, so when my 442 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: dad was like, someone here wants to talk to you. 443 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: I just I knew her as well as I knew 444 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, my own voice, and it was Bonnie, and 445 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: I was like, what the hell. So it turned out 446 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: they had started dating and he had moved into with 447 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: her in Los Angeles. 448 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 3: After this phone call, Michael's father becomes more of a 449 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: fixture in his and Tony's life. The boys begin to 450 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 3: take trips to visit their dad and Bonnie in LA, 451 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 3: where their life drastically differs from their life back home 452 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 3: in Salem, Oregon. 453 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it couldn't have been more different. Part of 454 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: the issue in Oregons you just didn't have any food. 455 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: My mom wasn't great at sort of material things, and 456 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: the house was often kind of messy and dirty, and 457 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: we didn't have heat some nights in the winter and 458 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: we would have to chop the wood, and if we 459 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: ran out of wood, there would just be no fire, 460 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: no heat, and we'd be under blankets and you could 461 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: see your breath inside the house. 462 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: And the house wasn't even. 463 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: Insulated when we move in, as I recall, and then 464 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: we you know, my mom's boyfriend, Sky Paul, who was 465 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: a great guy but just an absolute drunk, started raising 466 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: rabbits for food, and that's what we ate. 467 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: We ate rabbit meat. Paul. It's like a woodsman. 468 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: But so he yeah, he just he sat us down. 469 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: He's like, all right, we're going to teach you how 470 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: to slaughter. And he taught us how to the step 471 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: by step process of slaughtering rabbits. You know, would breed 472 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: the rabbits and then a big bunch of litters would 473 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: be born, and then you try to time them so 474 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: they're all born around the same time, and then you 475 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: let them grow to a certain age, and then it's 476 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: slaughtering day, and then you slaughter all the rabbits. Then 477 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: you keep them in the fridge, and then you live 478 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: off those rabbits for however many months until the next round. 479 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: And the rough parts were when he would disappear. He 480 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: would go on one of these drinking binges and it 481 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: would be like there's no food, eat, and there was 482 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: nothing to do but slaughter rabbits. And I would be 483 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: like seven years old with a hunting knife, you know, 484 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: cutting the heads off rabbits and pulling the skins off 485 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: and doing all the things you do to feel dress 486 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: to animal. 487 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: And I have all these cuts to this day. I 488 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 2: have all these scars on. 489 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: My hand on my left hand from where I cut 490 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: into it with the hunting knife because I wasn't that 491 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: adept at it. My mom, who's just God bless her, 492 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: not a very good cook, would try to make The 493 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: worst was like rabbit stew, and she just had no 494 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: idea how to do it. And then the worst part 495 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: was like night two of rabbit stew. It'd be like 496 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: this gamey smell, this gamey smoky smell nows and it 497 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: would have this like thing layer on top. They have 498 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: to skim off, and then night three and then night 499 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: four and we would just have to eat the stew 500 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: until it was gone because we were poor. We didn't 501 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: have any other food. Sometimes I tell these stories and 502 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: like my wife will be like, were you born in 503 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: the twenties, Like what the hell was going on? Like 504 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: I was just something that happened like in the eighties. 505 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: And then when we get to la, I mean, it 506 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: was just like modern day childhood. Like there were you know, 507 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, microwave burritos, you know, and celery with 508 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: peanut butter, and I don't know, salami ice cream after 509 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: dinner every night, and then they would take us places. 510 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: On weekends, we'd go to Disneyland or go to some 511 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: theme park, or we'd always go on the weekends and 512 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,239 Speaker 1: play baseball with my dad, and then we were all 513 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: together at night. You know, my dad would like to 514 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: watch Dodger games or Laker games, and he'd sit there 515 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: and drink and smoke and just bitch about the Dodgers. 516 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: And we'd sit there and bitch too, and we didn't 517 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: know what we were talking about. Again, we're just kind 518 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: of making it up. But it was just like there 519 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: were there's dis abundance, there's this sense of sort of 520 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: joy and wonder and this feeling like we were safe. 521 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: We weren't just in the middle of somebody else's crisis, 522 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: but we were just kind of taken care. 523 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: Of and it was fine. 524 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 3: But things continue to be not fine. Back in Oregon, 525 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: McKell and his brother continue to be hungry, their mom 526 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 3: continues to be depressed. Paul continues to disappear. The boys 527 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 3: are going to school, to a real regular school for 528 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 3: the first time, but they feel generally disconnected from their classmates, 529 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 3: who have no idea what they're going through at home. 530 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: We'd go from these incredibly emotionally tense situations, and then 531 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: to go to school and just be expected to do 532 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: math was weird. And then also just being hungry, which 533 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: I think a lot of kids, unfortunately in the MONOWORLK 534 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: can relate to trying to go to school while hungry. 535 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: We definitely were hungry at school. Hearing about how my 536 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: peers went through their lives. I guess it was different 537 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: because my days were just different from theirs. But at 538 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: the time, I don't know. I think we just thought. 539 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: I just knew there was this sad woman. It was 540 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: my job to take care of her, and because she 541 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: always told me that was my job, of boys. 542 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: Job to take care of her mother. And my brother 543 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: was just angry. 544 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: He was one of these like kind of lost kids 545 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: that hated all adults, and probably for a good reason 546 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: because he had been hurt by a lot of adults. 547 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: And I was a very capable kid, I guess, and 548 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: took on the role of a super child. You know, 549 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: different families under stress take on these predictable roles, and 550 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 1: there's like the scapegoat child and the super child and 551 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: the mascot child or whatever. And I was just the 552 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: one that was trying to I would chop the wood 553 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: in the back and slaughter the rabbits and try to 554 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: get my mom, you know, feeling okay about her life, 555 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: and then fill in for whatever my stepdad wasn't doing, 556 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: and then try to calm my brother down so it 557 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: wasn't too pissed to go to school and just try 558 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: to take it all on and make sure everyone was okay, which, 559 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: in retrospect, probably my brother's way of handling it might 560 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: have been more healthy. 561 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 2: He was just understandably pissed. 562 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: In addition to all this stuff, there was this kind 563 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: of sense that my mom knew our lives better than 564 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: we and would tell us and I would say something like, Mom, 565 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: I'm sad, and she'd say, no, you're not, You're happier 566 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 1: with your mother. And this happened with when the men 567 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: from Senning On came and beat Phil up and I 568 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: had nightmares. I wet the bed after that, as kids 569 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: often do after traumatic experiences, and had a bunch of nightmares, 570 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: and that every sign in modern world, you'd be like, 571 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,239 Speaker 1: this kid is PTSD, like I know it now. At 572 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: the time, we never saw a counselor. I didn't No 573 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: one ever thought like how what our experience was like? 574 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: We were just kind of these ancillary things to our parents' stories. Really, 575 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: that's how it felt. And you know when when Phil 576 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: got beat up and I would tell her I was 577 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: scared because the bad men were going to come, and 578 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: she would say, well, you weren't even there, and I'd say, yeah, 579 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 1: I was there. I watched from the porch. She screamed, 580 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: we caught eyes. It was I was in She say, no, 581 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: you weren't, and it was almost like she couldn't, she 582 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: couldn't piece it together. And I didn't know what to 583 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,719 Speaker 1: do with this. As a kid, there was like mom's reality, 584 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: and there was reality, and then there was synonyms reality, 585 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: then there was the reality of the world. 586 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 2: And I was like this precocious kid just. 587 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,719 Speaker 1: Being told by her constantly what reality was and it 588 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: didn't match my experience. But I knew enough to tell 589 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: her she was. 590 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 3: Right, because you needed to do that to survive. 591 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 2: I had to have a caretaker, right, Yeah, I was 592 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: a kid. Kids are trying to get their needs met. 593 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: You know, we have the emotional makeup of orphans, and 594 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: we certainly lived that way for our first five years. 595 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: And so it's like you just learned to perform. You're 596 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: just you're not enough. Nothing you do is enough. You're 597 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: not loved because you're loved. You're loved because you're special 598 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: in some way, and you have to prove constantly that 599 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 1: you're special to everyone, because that's what you're taught at 600 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: a young age is the only way you're ever going 601 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: to get any of your needs met. 602 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 2: And that's how I responded to her. 603 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 3: As Michel's sense of reality is constantly being questioned by 604 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 3: his mom, there's also the ongoing drama of his mom's 605 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 3: relationship with Paul. Paul goes out on benders, then they 606 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: break up, then they get back together, over and over again. 607 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 3: They get married, and this rhythm continues and somehow lending 608 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 3: a fragile sense of support to all This is the 609 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 3: language of twelve step recovery. The Serenity prayer is on 610 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 3: the wall. Phrases like let go and let God are 611 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 3: in regular rotation. Mickel absorbs some of this and even 612 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 3: tries comforting his mother by saying things like it's the 613 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 3: disease talking or one day at a time. Then Paul disappears, 614 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: and this time he doesn't return. Michel's mother informs him 615 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: in a very matter of fact, almost casual way that 616 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 3: Paul has died, but then she back pedals and says 617 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: she thinks Paul is dead. This is extremely sad and 618 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 3: perplexing to Michel, not only the news of the loss, 619 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 3: but the mixed messages and the manner in which the 620 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 3: news is delivered. 621 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: She just kind of mentioned in passing, like he's dead, 622 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, what, wait, can we Paul? And 623 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: then it was like past the potatoes, Like it was 624 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: just like the next line, you know, there was no 625 00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: there was no acknowledgment. 626 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: There was though, like are we gonna grieve him somehow? 627 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: We're gonna have this be a sit down. It's just 628 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: gonna at least be a big talk. It wasn't even that. 629 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: It was just this passing thing. And then when I 630 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: was like, well, should we go look for him? 631 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: Should we find it because she had said he disappeared 632 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: while drinking and everyone thinks he's probably dead or maybe 633 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: he isn't you know, she backtracked a little and made 634 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: it kind of age and I was just like, let's 635 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: go figure this out. This is my guy, you know, 636 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: we gotta find him. And she said why you guys 637 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: were never close, and it was like she just invented wholesale, 638 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: this new reality on the spot on the spot, and 639 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: it was so confusing because I knew in my heart 640 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: like I was crushed by this news, and I was 641 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: so sad. Paul was just he'd watch cartoons with us, 642 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: and he'd take us fishing, and he'd make jokes with us, 643 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: and he would talk to me about problems. You know, 644 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: if I got in a fight with a friend, he'd say, well, 645 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: there's your buddy, and you got to resolve it in 646 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: this way, and you got any He listened to us, 647 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: you know. And my mom, despite all of her very 648 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 1: very intelligent woman and thousands of books about psychology whatnot. 649 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: I mean, we never got to bedtime story once ever 650 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: in our lives. We never had any sense that our 651 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: sort of day and any kind of schedule to it. 652 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: There was no rhythm, there was no boundaries, there was 653 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: no you know, all the things that in the modern 654 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: world we say like this is what constitutes good parenting, right, and. 655 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: He actually had some of that stuff down. 656 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: He was empathetic and he listened, he was warm, and 657 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: he was this broken guy, but he just loved us 658 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: and he was good with us in that way, just 659 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: kind of like I almost saw him as like a 660 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: really nice older brother, uncle or something. I don't know 661 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: if I ever saw him particularly as a father, but 662 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: I definitely loved him. I would find myself one to 663 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: go down to the banks over the West Saland Bridge 664 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 1: over the Willamette River, because that's where he would take 665 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: us fishing, and I'd go looking for him because I 666 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: knew he'd go drinking down there. Sometimes I never found him, 667 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, he was just gone. I never I never 668 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: saw him again. And He's a guy wh'd live with us, 669 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: and I'd seen him, you know, every day since I 670 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: was six years old, when I was in Oregon, and 671 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: then one day he's just gone, and that was that. 672 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: By the time Mickel is eleven, he's living alone with 673 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 3: his mom. Of course, Paul is gone, and now his 674 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 3: brother Tony, he has gone too. Tony's anger has spiraled 675 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 3: out of control and he's become unruly, so the family 676 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 3: decides his father might be able to straighten him out 677 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 3: in la This leaves Michel to do what he's always done, 678 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,959 Speaker 3: but on hyperdrive. He is, for better or worse, the 679 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: proverbial man of the house. After all, he's been told 680 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 3: again and again that a boy's job is to take 681 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 3: care of his mother, you know. 682 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: And I did three hours of chores before school, two 683 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: hours of chores after school every day, taking care of 684 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: rabbits and chopping wood and taking care of the house 685 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: in all these different ways. 686 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: In some ways it. 687 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: Probably taught me a work ethic that has served me 688 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: really well. In other ways, it was probably a little much. 689 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 3: Then your mother starts dating again and this man named 690 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 3: Doug enters the picture. 691 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: Doug was no Paul like Paul was funny. 692 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: He watched cartoons in his underwear and it was just 693 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: this like weird dude that we could get down with them. 694 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: My dad hilarious, you know, had done time in prison, 695 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, ex heroinautic, charismatic is all shit. 696 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: And he was. He was clean, sober, you. 697 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: Know, for the most part at that point, and a 698 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: really good guy and of good dad. 699 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: But he had soul, you know what I mean. 700 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: He liked music, and he liked and he could like 701 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: people from all walks of life, and in walks this 702 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,479 Speaker 1: guy Doug, who's just like, Wow, your mother and I 703 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: are having a very important talk with you now, and 704 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: we want to have this talk with you that to 705 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: make sure that you understand the rules in this house. 706 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: And I was like, who the fuck is this dude? 707 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: Who's this guy that suddenly shows up in my house 708 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: and is telling me how to live and what to do? 709 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: And he was weird. 710 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: He was like a really odd cadence to his speech. 711 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: He always wanted you to kind of like agree with him. 712 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: You take these pauses, these really long pauses as he 713 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: answered questions for you, like and then he'd say trust 714 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: and he'd go off and some other tangent and you know, 715 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: he'd he'd go to a restaurant order like oatmeal with raisins. 716 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: It was just weird, like and then he was also 717 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: just abusive. He was just he would he would like disappear. 718 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: My mom would come home and he just he'd be gone. 719 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: He like moved out all of his stuff, Like he'd 720 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: move in and then. 721 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 2: He'd move out, and he moved in. He moved in 722 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: and moved out. 723 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: Like four different times in the span of I want 724 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: to say, like a year and a half. And it 725 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: was just all very confusing and strange. There had been 726 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: a while where he, you know, he always wanted to 727 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: make sure I knew he was bigger than me, and 728 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: he would you know, hit my dog. I remember him, 729 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: like my dog pooped on the stairs or something. We 730 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: had this dog, this great labrador that we need more, 731 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: and we never. 732 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: Hit the dog. We just kind of told them to 733 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: stop pooping places or whatever. 734 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: He'd tower over me when I would talk back to 735 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: my mom, sort of like trying to physically intimidate me. 736 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: And also they just didn't care about my life. Like 737 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: I was going to school and doing all these chores 738 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: and working and stuff. And then I was on the 739 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: relay team of the track team for my elementary school. 740 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: I had a little relay thing, and they never came 741 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: to anything. They just kind of had their own lives 742 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: and it was like they were just kind of checked out. 743 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: And then one day my mom says something about sports 744 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: and I was like, sports are cool, mom, and she's like, no, 745 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: they're not. 746 00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: It's just you know alpha. 747 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: I was trying to prove alpha they are and I 748 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's stupid. It's how hard you work, 749 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: and it's the camaraderie and it's I like sports mom. 750 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: And then she said something and was I think I 751 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: called her a bitch. I was like, don't be a 752 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: bitch or something, and then he got got up. He 753 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: was really mad, like don't you call your mother a bitch? 754 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: And he pinned me down and just like knocked me 755 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: one across the mouth. Had never had anything like that 756 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: happened to me. And he put his finger in my face, 757 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: and I can remember, like literally the spit in his 758 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: mouth is. 759 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 2: He's like, don't you ever touch your mother that way? 760 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 2: Not in my house or something like that. 761 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: It was all this kind of like control stuff, like 762 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: he was the man I was supposed to listen to him, 763 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: and I was like, ashole, you moved out four times, 764 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: like what arem I. 765 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: Supposed to listen to you? Of course my reaction. I 766 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,479 Speaker 2: think he thought I would sort of cower away and 767 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: be intimidated by him or something. Instead, I just like 768 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: stood up and I was like. 769 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: My Dad's gonna beat the shit out of you. I 770 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: was so mad and just so certain that like this 771 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: guy wasn't worth, wasn't worth anything, and just trifling. 772 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: So I got on my bike and I ran away. 773 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: It was like nighttime, and I just went and stood 774 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: on the on the bridge over in the Willamotte River, 775 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: and I just felt such a sense of aloneness. And 776 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: I went down to the banks and I was looking 777 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: for my step dad who had been dead, and I 778 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: wish I could call or talk to or be around 779 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: my dad and Bonnie, and you know, it just felt 780 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: like I just had no people, you know, that feeling 781 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: like there's just no one in the world that gives 782 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: a shit about me at all. And the synanon, you know, 783 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: was bad in its own way, and then in a 784 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: lot of ways, this was worse. My story has like 785 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, there's prison and drug addicts 786 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: and people dying and all these cults, and there's all 787 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: this stuff that's really you know, kind of like sounds 788 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: really sexy and big, but like what's hard about being 789 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: a kid is being alone. And that's that's true for 790 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: a lot of kids, to just feel like you don't 791 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: have people that are that are on your side. You know. 792 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: He eventually apologized, but I at that point I was 793 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: just o it, you know, it just didn't want to 794 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: be wrong. So then I went to Los Angeles for 795 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: the summer, and at the end of the summer got 796 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: to talking with them about staying and going to school. 797 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: We had sort of made the decision, my dad and 798 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: Bonnie and I that I was going to stay there. 799 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: And that we had to go and call my mom. 800 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 2: It was like I knew I was breaking a rule. 801 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: I knew that telling her that I'm going to go 802 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: live in this other place was an absolute apostacy that 803 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: went against everything I was ever ever been told about 804 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: what I was supposed to do with my life, which 805 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: was to take care of her. And it's almost like 806 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: I surprised her. And again, these things were never said 807 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: out loud. It was just kind of something I. 808 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 3: Knew, and she basically said to you, one year. 809 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was one year. 810 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: I think the rationale was I needed I was becoming 811 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: a teenager and I needed to get to know my dad, 812 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: and so we were going to spend one year in 813 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, you know, getting to know my dad. 814 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 3: Will be back in a moment with more family seeks. 815 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 3: Michel starts a new life in a new school. He's 816 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 3: a talented runner and he gets on the track team. 817 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 3: He's at a true inflection point, one of those moments 818 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 3: in life where things can go in any number of 819 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 3: different directions. His time with his dad is vitally important 820 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 3: to him. He's a jolay Man, part of a lineage 821 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 3: of Joe Laymen, and he's trying to figure out for 822 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 3: himself what this means. 823 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: My dad was big on betting the ponies, and he 824 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: would like to take us to Hollywood Park. I learned 825 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: fractions at Hollywood Park by learning betting on at a 826 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: young agent, and so we would go there sometimes and 827 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: have these big talks. 828 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 2: And I'd fallen in with these kids. 829 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: And we were sneaking out at night and doing drugs 830 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: and drinking and ditching school. And I was getting really 831 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: bad grades. And my brother was doing at this point 832 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: already cocaine, p CP acid. He was drinking every single night, 833 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: and a bunch of stuff had gone down with him 834 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: where he'd been arrested and cops were after him and 835 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: he left the house. And then we found out he'd 836 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: missed school for six months straight and eventually he got 837 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: shipped off to rehab. And it all kind of scared me, 838 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to go down that path. And 839 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: I saw that my brother was going down this path, 840 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: and I was I was going down that path. That 841 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: was part of this little, you know, skate gang. You know, 842 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: we'd hit up on walls and egg buses and just 843 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: be little shitty skaters that weren't really going anywhere, just 844 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: kind of burnout. So we thought we were cool, but 845 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: we knew we weren't really going anywhere, and that. 846 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 2: Was kind of the point. 847 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: And I saw this thing happening and my brother, and 848 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: I was just like, I want out of this, and 849 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do. So my dad took 850 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: me to Hollywood Park and were sitting up in the 851 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: stands and I told him all about it, and I 852 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: was like, Dad, I just want to get out of this. 853 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. He turned to me 854 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: and he was just like, you know, you're a smart kid. 855 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: You don't you don't have to do any of this 856 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: stuff that I did. He would tell these charming stories 857 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: about prison. You know, they were kind of fun. He 858 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 1: was never shy by it, but he kind of leveled 859 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: with me and he was like, listen, I tell you 860 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 1: all these stories are kind of funny, but it's terrible. 861 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: Being an addict is terrible. Going to jail is terrible. Like, 862 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: I wish I could have done what you have the 863 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: opportunity to do. I wish I had your chance. And 864 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 1: he said, don't do what I did. Go do something better, 865 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: Go make something of your life. You're a smart kid. 866 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 1: And you can go do anything you want. And I 867 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: wish somebody had told me that at your age. But 868 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, he never knew his dad. He's like, there 869 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: wasn't anyone to tell me. I mean, I guess he 870 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: knew him, but I didn't know him well. So I 871 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: took it to heart. And you know, Bonnie was involved 872 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: in this as well, and I. 873 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 2: Just started trying in school. 874 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: It was weird, like I'd never tried before, and I 875 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: just started trying and lo and behold what was good 876 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: at it? And I liked it. Like I literally didn't 877 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: know what it meant to study. No one told me 878 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: what how to study. No one pulled me aside and like, 879 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: read your book and take notes on it. What does 880 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: that even mean? 881 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: I don't know. 882 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: Someone taught me how to do it. One day I 883 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: was like, oh, so just this and memorize these facts, 884 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: like yeah, So I started doing that and found out 885 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: I really took to it. It was something I really 886 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: enjoyed and I was good at it, and I was surprised. 887 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: It was like the biggest shock of my life to 888 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: realize that I liked school. 889 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 3: Mckel is so good in school that he's accepted to 890 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 3: Stanford University, one of the best institutions of higher learning 891 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 3: in the country. It's a beautiful campus, a place of 892 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 3: privilege and opportunity, But mckel doesn't feel exactly at home there. 893 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 3: He's on scholarship, and while he's no longer the child 894 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 3: skinning rabbits in the backyard, he knows he was that child, 895 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 3: and knows that his classmates were not those familiar feelings 896 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 3: of a loneeness and attachment creep back in. 897 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: I think I didn't feel it as much in high school, 898 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: this sense of alienation I felt in college because I 899 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: went to this LA public school and a lot of 900 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: the kids that I was really good friends with, they 901 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: were trying to do what I was trying to do. 902 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: They were trying to get out, you know, And there 903 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: was you know, we certainly had different experiences because of race, 904 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: and like, you know, I have white privilege, that had 905 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: white privilege still have it that they didn't have, and 906 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: all that. But in so far as like a dad 907 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: who had been in prison, no one ever made it 908 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: past eighth grade. 909 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 2: Let's study hard and get the fuck out of this place. 910 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: That was That was a shared feeling among a lot 911 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: of my peers, most of them were black, and there 912 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: was a lot of white kids too, but they kind 913 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: of had a more suburban experience at the school, I 914 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: would say. And so getting to college it was wild 915 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: because I think I was just I'd never been around 916 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: like rich people. I remember there was like orientation week, 917 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: and there was like the Black Student Union lunch, and 918 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: the Native American lunch, and the Meta lunch and the 919 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: Asian Pacific Islander lunch, and then there. 920 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 2: Was just lunch. 921 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,439 Speaker 1: Like I just went to lunch and like lunch mayor, 922 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: but I was been called like white lunch, So I 923 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: went to white lunch, and because that's how all that 924 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: was left. And I'd sit like across from a kid 925 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: from like New Hampshire Prep school and like a game 926 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: hat and just had like nothing in common with these kids. 927 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: What was bizarre to me was I think in their eyes, 928 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: I came up lacking that, like I didn't know the language, 929 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 1: and some of it was I later learned was kind 930 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: of like the language of wealth. I's like, why aren't 931 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: my jokes landing? And I think they kind of looked 932 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 1: down at me a little bit. 933 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 3: You also learned to leave really significant parts of your 934 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 3: history and your story and your family out. 935 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and for many years at that point, stopped telling 936 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: any of the stories about sennin On and any stories 937 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: about my early childhood and cause you just you get 938 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: sick of like people looking at you funny. You know, 939 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: I still don't like it. I still don't love being introduced, 940 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: even like if I'm doing a piece of media or 941 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: something and someone's like, well, Michael Julai was born in 942 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: a cule called cinema, and I want to feel like 943 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: that was my parents' decision. 944 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 2: I feel immediately kind. 945 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: Of defensive, like I don't want to be branded as 946 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 1: some like someone who's had some like experience that nobody 947 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: can relate to, and therefore I'm going to be strange 948 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: and broken in some way, which ultimately I probably am 949 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: strange and broken in some ways, but just maybe not 950 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: in the ways people expect, you know, and spent a 951 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: lot of years trying to not be strange and broken 952 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,919 Speaker 1: and trying to have more empathy. I mean some ways, 953 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: I think these really hard things that happened to you 954 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,479 Speaker 1: they sort of like create a crack where you're able 955 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 1: to have more empathy than others and maybe see things 956 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: others can't because you've just been through some really really 957 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: awful shit, and especially as an artist, it creates an 958 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: empathy and an eye and an ability to connect that 959 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 1: maybe other people don't have. But you know, at nineteen 960 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: years old at Stanford University, I didn't understand any of that. 961 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 1: I just felt alienated and I knew I was not 962 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: bringing up, you know, the cult I was born. And 963 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't bringing up my dad had been 964 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: in prison. I knew I wasn't bringing up like my 965 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: mentally ill mom, or my stepfather had died, or people 966 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: have been beaten in front of me, or my drug 967 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: addic brother, any of that stuff. I just knew, you know, 968 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: stick to like, you know, what your college essay was about, 969 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: and what are you majoring in? And what bands do 970 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: you like? And you know, with sports do you like whatever, 971 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: just and eventually learn to just create a very highly 972 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: curated mask for the world. We've all learned to do 973 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: that to some extent. And I think for me at 974 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,919 Speaker 1: that point that I was too scared to show any 975 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: other part of who I was to the world. 976 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 3: As Michel navigates his way through college, he takes psychology 977 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 3: courses which end up educating and even enlightening him. About 978 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 3: his own life. In one of his textbooks, he comes 979 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 3: across Synanon. Up until this point, he hadn't understood that 980 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 3: this cult was famous. He recognizes his mother in some 981 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 3: of the psychology books too. He'd always known she struggled 982 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 3: with her mental health, but it isn't until now that 983 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 3: he realizes the scope of it all. She's not just 984 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 3: a troubled woman with a tenuous grasp on reality. No, 985 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,760 Speaker 3: she has what's called NPD and BPD, narcissistic personality disorder 986 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 3: and borderline personality disorder, very real afflictions that are difficult 987 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 3: to treat and have led her to behave in the 988 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,479 Speaker 3: ways she has. She has, of course left her mark 989 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 3: upon Mckel. A ripple effect of their shared history. Michel 990 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 3: suffers from an inability to connect with others, to really 991 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 3: let them in. That's when he discovers that he has 992 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 3: a disorder of his own, attachment disorder. Unlocking this language 993 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 3: and knowledge is pivotal in Michel's journey toward understanding his 994 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 3: relationship with his mother and with himself. 995 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: I think part of the problem, I think is that 996 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: we don't really as society have a language for narcissistic personality. Disorder, 997 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,280 Speaker 1: like we have language for depression and schizophrenia and addiction 998 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: and anxiety and ADHD, and we're just now starting, like 999 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,280 Speaker 1: in the last few years, to have a language around 1000 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: MPD and borderline personality disorder, which are closely related and 1001 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: they're fairly common, and they create relationships without love, without empathy, 1002 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: but we don't really talk about it, and so. 1003 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 2: I didn't really understand what it was. 1004 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,879 Speaker 1: All I knew was my mother constantly cross boundaries, knew 1005 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: get a difficult grasp on reality, and I was uncomfortable 1006 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: in her presence, which was enough for me to kind 1007 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: of cut off contact with her. Around like nineteen twenty 1008 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: years old. I stopped talking to her because I was 1009 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: just suddenly so mad at her, and I couldn't even explain. 1010 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,399 Speaker 2: I couldn't even tell you why. 1011 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: At the time that happened, I went to visit her 1012 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 1: at this treatment center where she had checked herself into, 1013 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: and someone had mentioned emotional abuse and the emotional abuse 1014 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: of children, and I realized that they were talking about 1015 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: her and how she cheated us, and it just kind 1016 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: of hit me so hard that this was true, and 1017 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: I was so incredibly angry about it, you know, And 1018 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 1: then over time, you sustain these wounds yourself. You realize 1019 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: eventually that you whatever damage was done to you as 1020 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,839 Speaker 1: a kid, it's if you want to live your own life, 1021 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: you have to try to fix it yourself, right, even 1022 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: if it's not your fault, it's your responsibility, I guess. 1023 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I noticed as I got older, 1024 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: I was having a real hard time with relationships that 1025 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,879 Speaker 1: I just I just couldn't I you know, things would 1026 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: fizzle out or I would always have like one foot 1027 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: out the door. 1028 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 2: And I was noticing friends, you know, as I got older, like. 1029 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: Getting married and moving on, and a lot of stories, 1030 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, people who write about their lives end with 1031 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: like and then it all worked out, And I really 1032 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: wanted to get into like, here's the wreckage. I really 1033 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: wanted to speak honestly about the wreckage in my life. 1034 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: And the recage was I knew I had an attachment disorder. 1035 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: I knew it was because I'd been an orphan, and 1036 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: I knew it took a really long time to get 1037 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: out of that. And I knew my mother was mentally 1038 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 1: ill and have all the things that to talk about publicly, 1039 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: that's probably the hardest one being born and cult. All right, 1040 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,240 Speaker 1: you feel a little weird, but it's still kind of like, WHOA, 1041 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: what happened there? The alcoholism or the drug addiction that 1042 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 1: runs in my family. Being able to really not be 1043 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: part of that, that's almost a credit to me. There's 1044 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: this other feeling talking about, wow, I couldn't really be 1045 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: in a relationship that feels more like shame and harassmith 1046 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: maybe like fear that something's fundamentally wrong with me that 1047 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: it took me a long time to really come to 1048 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: terms with, to feel like, you know, not so defensive 1049 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: about because you feel like you have to guard it 1050 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,919 Speaker 1: the way like a boxer will guard a broken rib 1051 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: and a fight or something like this is your vulnerability point. 1052 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,439 Speaker 1: But like what I know now, You know, having gone 1053 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: through work with like a really good therapist five years 1054 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,399 Speaker 1: on the couch twice a week, we got through all 1055 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: this stuff and spend a lot of time kind of 1056 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,840 Speaker 1: leaning into the discomfort that you just kind of have 1057 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 1: to go into that discomfort and you have to learn 1058 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,959 Speaker 1: to be okay with it, and then it starts to 1059 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: not have so much control over you, and you very 1060 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: slowly start to learn how to make new choices and 1061 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: to see situations in different ways and eventually get to 1062 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: the other side of it and feel like you're a 1063 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: person who can love and be loved and have a real. 1064 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 2: Relationship in your life. 1065 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: And it's ironic because it's like the thing you don't 1066 00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 1: want to do is acknowledge that you're sort of fundamentally 1067 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: flawed some way, and you feel defensive about it and 1068 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: defensive and like you don't want to talk about it 1069 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 1: or think about it. But it's that very thing that 1070 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,239 Speaker 1: you don't want to talk about that is the key 1071 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: to having it and not control your life. 1072 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you said that. I mean, that's so 1073 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 3: exactly right. One of the most moving and triumphant parts 1074 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 3: of Michel's story is that he has become a person 1075 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 3: who can have real and loving relationships. He's happily married, 1076 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 3: he's a dad to two kids. He has a robust 1077 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 3: career as a musician and writer, which allows so many 1078 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 3: to love and celebrate him too. 1079 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,919 Speaker 1: I have been with my wife ten years next year, 1080 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: and we have two beautiful children who I love more 1081 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,200 Speaker 1: than life itself. And I'm really happy to say we 1082 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 1: have a happy little house, a. 1083 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:50,479 Speaker 2: Happy little home. 1084 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 1: I'm my first job in the world is to be 1085 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: a husband and father, and I take that job very seriously. 1086 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: It's also my favorite job and kind of everything starts 1087 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,320 Speaker 1: from there these days for me. That that's that's always 1088 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 1: my first priority in the primary in my mind is 1089 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: making sure that we're our relationships are. 1090 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 2: Strong, and our kids are taken care of. 1091 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,640 Speaker 1: And when my son was born, I remember at six 1092 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,319 Speaker 1: months old thinking like, wow, this is the age we 1093 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: were given to strangers. And it's like it didn't quite 1094 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,319 Speaker 1: cross my mind as a kid how monstrous that was. 1095 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,239 Speaker 1: I didn't know, But as a parent, I just was 1096 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: appalled by, like this horrific thing that. So I'm going 1097 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: to take this child that all I think about is 1098 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:34,440 Speaker 1: how he's not going to I don't want him to 1099 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: bump his head, you know. 1100 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 2: I don't want him to. 1101 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: Grab a knife. I don't want him to fall over, 1102 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: you know. I just want to protect him and love him, 1103 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,799 Speaker 1: make sure he's safe. And we're going to give him 1104 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,359 Speaker 1: to a stranger now, and I'm not going to see 1105 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: him for years. I'm not going to know who he's 1106 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: with and what he's doing. Like I can't imagine doing 1107 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: that for an afternoon, let alone for weeks, months, years, 1108 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: at a time, and so it occurred to me like 1109 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: the real violence of Synanon. There was some violent acts, 1110 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: but you know, as cults goo, it wasn't like Waco 1111 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: or something. It wasn't you know, Branch Davidians, wasn't People's Temple. 1112 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: There's some very violent cults out there where people fully died. 1113 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 1: That didn't really happen in center On's case. It was 1114 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: like an emotional violence. And I would say the victims, 1115 00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,880 Speaker 1: the prime victims of that emotional violence were the children. 1116 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,759 Speaker 1: And it's sort of like the big ugly secret of 1117 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: center On is that the children were all turned into 1118 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 1: these people with these attachment disorders and murky relationships and 1119 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 1: a lifetime of trying to figure out why they feel. 1120 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:28,440 Speaker 2: So alienated from the world. 1121 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: And then in my career, yeah, so a writer, I 1122 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: was on NPR for a while, I was editor of 1123 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,839 Speaker 1: a music magazine called Filters, editor at large Ment health magazine. 1124 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: I met a drummer and I decided to start a 1125 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: rock band. 1126 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:44,800 Speaker 2: You know, music was a big part. 1127 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: Of my life growing up and making me feel like 1128 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,520 Speaker 1: the weirdness and alienation I felt wasn't something that only 1129 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,240 Speaker 1: I felt. And I'd spent a lot of time listening 1130 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: to things like The Cure and the Smiths and feeling 1131 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 1: like there were other people out there who had gone 1132 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: through similar journey and that meant everything to me at 1133 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 1: that age. And I grew up with that feeling, relating 1134 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,320 Speaker 1: to music so hard, and then eventually he was writing 1135 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: songs in my spare time, and then eventually decided I 1136 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: wanted to make it my purpose in life to be 1137 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 1: a songwriter and document my journey through the world and 1138 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,320 Speaker 1: a spiritual, emotional, psychological journey through the world through songs. 1139 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,720 Speaker 1: So I've been doing that with the band for about 1140 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,560 Speaker 1: fifteen years, and it's. 1141 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 2: Been wicked fun. 1142 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 1: It's been great touring the world and playing big concerts 1143 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,440 Speaker 1: and having these big, overwhelming celebrations, which is what a 1144 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 1: concert is all the time. 1145 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,760 Speaker 3: Here's Michel reading one last passage from his powerful memoir 1146 00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 3: Hollywood Park. 1147 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,279 Speaker 1: Eventually the landscape begins to make sense, and I learned 1148 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,879 Speaker 1: where the pitfalls are. Here's a mountain of fear over 1149 00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 1: there as a river of regret down there is a 1150 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: swamp of shame next to it, metow of hope. 1151 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 2: Travel with care. 1152 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,320 Speaker 1: It takes time, but I learned to laugh at myself, 1153 00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 1: to tolerate discomfort, to accept these things that were once 1154 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: so hard to accept. It's not easy. I get depressed, 1155 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,759 Speaker 1: I get anxious about it. I learned to just sit 1156 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,399 Speaker 1: with it. That the thing Dad always told me about 1157 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: acceptance and heartache was true. Sometimes you just have to 1158 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,600 Speaker 1: sit on your hands and hurt. What can I say? 1159 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: It was uncomfortable, and it took years, and it was 1160 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:26,320 Speaker 1: the only way to change. 1161 00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,400 Speaker 3: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Acre is 1162 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,600 Speaker 3: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 1163 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 3: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 1164 00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 3: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 1165 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,120 Speaker 3: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 1166 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,319 Speaker 3: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 1167 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:10,279 Speaker 3: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder and if you'd 1168 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,759 Speaker 3: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 1169 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:41,680 Speaker 3: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 1170 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,320 Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 1171 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:46,360 Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.