Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion is advised. Early
Speaker 1: in the morning of December twentieth, nineteen sixty four, flames
Speaker 1: blazed against the darkened sky, erupting from a fire in
Speaker 1: a home in Palmyra, New York. The house burned so
Speaker 1: intensely that the city's fire chief told a contemporary newspaper,
Speaker 1: when we got there, the flames were shooting into the
Speaker 1: middle of the street. It took seventy five firefighters from
Speaker 1: four towns over three hours to quell the blaze. When
Speaker 1: the smoke cleared, they recovered the bodies of twenty six
Speaker 1: year old ruth Anna Breden and her six children, Marion
Speaker 1: Eddie Edward age eight, Dennis Wayne aged six, Susan Pauline
Speaker 1: age five, Mitchell Eugene age four, or Sharon Faith age three,
Speaker 1: and Samuel David age two. Eddie and Samuel's bodies were
Speaker 1: found under a mattress, their bodies so dehydrated from the
Speaker 1: intense flames that rescuers reportedly mistook the corpses for dolls.
Speaker 1: Ruth Anna and her other four children had died together,
Speaker 1: the woman having attempted to shield the children from the flames.
Speaker 1: The fire had so completely destroyed the building that the
Speaker 1: family was all found in the basement, the floor having
Speaker 1: collapsed in on itself. While the charred remains of the
Speaker 1: house were torn down, the basement and foundation remained intact. Today.
Speaker 1: The site of what has been described as the worst
Speaker 1: fire tragedy in Wayne County's history is the site of
Speaker 1: the Palmyra Historical Museum. Once a tavern and inn, the
Speaker 1: museum was moved to the foundation of the Breeden House
Speaker 1: as part of a historic district called the Historic Palmyra
Speaker 1: Museum's District, and as you might guess from its tragic past,
Speaker 1: the location is haunted with so much activity, including doors slamming,
Speaker 1: mysterious footsteps, and disembodied voices, that the museum's director describes
Speaker 1: it as the most haunted place in the Finger Lakes.
Speaker 1: I'm Amy Bruney, and welcome to Haunted Road. A colonial
Speaker 1: town in upstate New York of about eight thousand people,
Speaker 1: Paulmyro was named for the ancient Syrian city of the
Speaker 1: same name in seventeen ninety seven. Its location on the
Speaker 1: Erie Canal, which was completed in eighteen twenty five, created
Speaker 1: a prosperous environment for locals. Paulmyro is sometimes called the
Speaker 1: Queen of the Canal Towns, but its biggest claim to
Speaker 1: fame is very different than waterway based commerce. The town
Speaker 1: is the birthplace of Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, who
Speaker 1: was born on a farm that straddled Palmyra and the
Speaker 1: adjoining town of Manchester. It's where Smith claimed to have
Speaker 1: received the golden tablets that became the Book of Mormon
Speaker 1: from an angel, and it's where the first Book of
Speaker 1: Mormon was printed in eighteen twenty nine and eighteen thirty
Speaker 1: Beginning in nineteen thirty seven, the Church of Jesus Christ
Speaker 1: of Latter day Saints hosted the hill Camorra Pageant in
Speaker 1: Palmyra each July. This play, which depicted events from the
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon and the church's history, took place near
Speaker 1: the location where Joseph Smith was said to have been
Speaker 1: visited by the angel. The pageant's final year was in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, after the church announced an end to most
Speaker 1: of their long running shows. One last pageant was planned
Speaker 1: for twenty twenty, but was postponed due to COVID and
Speaker 1: eventually canceled altogether. Today, The town's biggest tourist draw is
Speaker 1: the Historic Palmyra District, a group of five museums on
Speaker 1: a preserved city block of Market Street, comprised of the
Speaker 1: Palmyra Historical Museum, Erie Canal Depot, Phelps General Store, a
Speaker 1: print shop, and All In Coverlet Museum, which has America's
Speaker 1: largest collection of hand woven coverlets. The Palmyra Historical Museum
Speaker 1: in Phelps General Store are said to be haunted, although
Speaker 1: some claim that unexplained footsteps and voices can be heard
Speaker 1: in the Erie Canal Depot and the print shop as well.
Speaker 1: The Palmyra Historical Museum is housed in a building that
Speaker 1: was formerly an inn in Tavern that dates back as
Speaker 1: early as eighteen twenty six. In the late eighteen hundred zero,
Speaker 1: owners added the front section of the building, which became
Speaker 1: the restaurant's bar. During the years that it operated as
Speaker 1: the Saint James Hotel in Riefenberg Saloon. It's said that
Speaker 1: at least one murder by stabbing took place in the bar.
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy six, the building was moved from its
Speaker 1: original location a block away on William Street to the
Speaker 1: foundation that previously held up the breed In House. The
Speaker 1: move save the historic building, which was slated for demolition,
Speaker 1: but it in inherited a dark history with that relocation.
Speaker 1: The tragedy that took the lives of seven Bredens was
Speaker 1: never fully solved. In nineteen sixty four, local newspaper The
Speaker 1: Democrat and Chronicle reported that the fire was ruled an
Speaker 1: accidental fire of undetermined origin, but the circumstances of the
Speaker 1: fire were mysterious, to say the least. To start. The
Speaker 1: fire spread so quickly and burned so intensely that it
Speaker 1: is suspected an accelerant was used. Neighbors said that they
Speaker 1: attempted to get into the house and help the family,
Speaker 1: only to be faced with a wall of flames when
Speaker 1: they opened the door. The fire also destroyed the two
Speaker 1: adjacent houses, leaving eleven people homeless, though no one in
Speaker 1: those homes was harmed. And then there was Paul Breeden,
Speaker 1: ruth Anna's husband and the father of their six children.
Speaker 1: He was conveniently absent from the house at the time,
Speaker 1: having returned home just an hour after the fire started
Speaker 1: from a business trip in Chicago. As Patty Unvarick wrote
Speaker 1: in Ghosts and Hauntings of the Finger Lakes, there are
Speaker 1: people who say that he set the fire to free
Speaker 1: himself of the burden of a large family. Others say
Speaker 1: that he was so distraught over the news of his
Speaker 1: family member's death that he had to be sedated, or
Speaker 1: could it have been the overwhelming guilt over what he
Speaker 1: had done. I personally read a letter Paul wrote regarding
Speaker 1: the events of that night, and it is a bit suspicious.
Speaker 1: Anna and her children were buried in a single casket
Speaker 1: in a cemetery in Tennessee, where the Breedens were originally from.
Speaker 1: When the new building was moved to that foundation, there
Speaker 1: was still debris and ash from the fire in the basement,
Speaker 1: which is still there to this day. Bonnie Hayes, the
Speaker 1: Palmyra Museum's executive director, believes that at one point she
Speaker 1: found a small bone in the rubble. Today, museum staff
Speaker 1: still hangs stockings for the children at Christmas, and visitors
Speaker 1: sometimes bring toys to fill them. The Palmyra Historical Museum,
Speaker 1: a grand white building was a red dad door, has
Speaker 1: twenty three rooms, each with a different theme and each
Speaker 1: full to bursting with historic artifacts. The Military Room contains
Speaker 1: uniforms and memorabilia from American wars. The Doctor's office features
Speaker 1: medical devices, including an electroshock machine. The morning room includes
Speaker 1: a mannequin dressed in Civil War era morning dress who
Speaker 1: is referred to by staff as Gloria. The Religion room
Speaker 1: includes information on Palmyra's famous four churches, all built on
Speaker 1: different corners of an intersection, as well as a mannequin
Speaker 1: of Joseph Smith dressed in a costume from the hill
Speaker 1: Camora pageant. Even the buildings hallways have historical pictures lining
Speaker 1: the walls. Many believe that the hauntings in the building
Speaker 1: are tied to these objects. Musical instruments are said to
Speaker 1: play by themselves in the religious room. Security cameras in
Speaker 1: the merchant room once picked up a picture being carefully
Speaker 1: lifted off its hook and laid face up in the
Speaker 1: front of the door, with no one nearby to explain
Speaker 1: the move. In the d doctor's room, staff report encountering
Speaker 1: a spirit called the dark Man, who is possibly attached
Speaker 1: to the electroshock machine, which sometimes turns on by itself.
Speaker 1: Some believe that in life, the dark Man was teased
Speaker 1: for having physical deformities. One former employee, Kathy Woodlock, related
Speaker 1: an experienced she believes was related to the dark Man
Speaker 1: as Tammy Whitaker. Reported in The Daily Messenger. Upstairs in
Speaker 1: the doctor's office, Woodlock recalled witnessing the possession of a
Speaker 1: psychic medium. She said the medium went limp and then
Speaker 1: her hands came up curled like claws. Then, Woodlock said,
Speaker 1: the female medium began speaking in a man's voice, sharing
Speaker 1: an eerie message. I'm going to get even with them.
Speaker 1: I'm going to fry their brains. One investigator believes that
Speaker 1: the spirit of a crooked doctor who performed unnecessary procedures
Speaker 1: is present in the room, who is also connected to
Speaker 1: the electroshock equipment, but it's not clear whether this is
Speaker 1: the same entity as the dark Man. He's said to
Speaker 1: especially dislike women. According to Ghosts and Hauntings of the
Speaker 1: Finger Lakes, if a person stands in the center of
Speaker 1: the medical room with his hands stretched out, a tingling
Speaker 1: feeling will run through it. The children's room at the museum,
Speaker 1: which displays historical toys from different eras, is also said
Speaker 1: to be haunted. Specifically, it's believed to be haunted by
Speaker 1: the spirits of the six Breeden children. According to The
Speaker 1: Daily Messenger, a tape recorder placed in the empty room
Speaker 1: revealed forty five minutes of children at play, with the
Speaker 1: sounds of toys moving and metal roller skates clanging, but
Speaker 1: nothing in the room was out of place. It's said
Speaker 1: that the children will open the door of a cabinet
Speaker 1: where toys are kept, as well as moving around toys
Speaker 1: that are on display. The spirits of the breed and
Speaker 1: children are said to grab the hands and touch the
Speaker 1: hair of visitors, and some say that they can sometimes
Speaker 1: smell phantom smoke in the museum even though it was
Speaker 1: never touched by that fire. When staff open up the
Speaker 1: museum when it's been closed for the night or after
Speaker 1: a weekend, they often report items being disturbed when no
Speaker 1: one living was around to disturb them. As Bonnie Hayes,
Speaker 1: the Palmyra Museum's former executive director, told The Daily Messenger,
Speaker 1: a large framed picture of oj Garlock had come off
Speaker 1: the wall where it had been securely hanging for the
Speaker 1: past five years. The picture had dropped some five or
Speaker 1: more feet, landed face down on the floor, but the
Speaker 1: glass hadn't broken. The other museum in historic Palmyra that's
Speaker 1: believed to be haunted is the Phelps General Store. Originally
Speaker 1: constructed in eighteen twenty six, the building served as a
Speaker 1: boarding house tavern bakery and grocery store. In eighteen sixty eight,
Speaker 1: William Phelps purchased the building and remodeled it into a
Speaker 1: general store. He and his family, wife Catherine, son Julius,
Speaker 1: and daughter Mary Louise lived upstairs from the business. William
Speaker 1: was prominent in the community, serving as village president in
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six, as well as stints as a police
Speaker 1: justice justice obsessions, village treasurer, village trustee, and as a
Speaker 1: member of the school board. When he retired around eighteen
Speaker 1: ninety five, his son Julius took over the business. Julius,
Speaker 1: his wife Mary Maimie Aldrich, and their daughter Sybil continued
Speaker 1: to live in the building. The once prosperous family lost
Speaker 1: its money during the Great Depression. The store operated until
Speaker 1: July nineteen forty, when Julius closed it up one day
Speaker 1: and never opened it again. Some believe that Julius was
Speaker 1: frustrated by the number of customers who never paid their
Speaker 1: tabs in addition to increasing taxes from the government. As
Speaker 1: Tracy Murphy wrote in The Fingerlakes Times. Many have speculated
Speaker 1: he was tired of the storekeeper's life or nervous about
Speaker 1: the upcoming War. Whatever the reason, we know that the
Speaker 1: family did not enter the store after that day, but
Speaker 1: continued living upstairs. Because Julius locked the store one day
Speaker 1: and never opened it again, the space became a time
Speaker 1: capsule of life in nineteen forty. The Florida ceiling shelves
Speaker 1: are still stocked with items left behind from the day
Speaker 1: the store closed. Pre World War II versions of familiar
Speaker 1: brands like Tide, Felvida, Armenhammer, Heinz Pickles, and Kellogg's Cornflakes
Speaker 1: on the counter still. The museum's motto, fittingly is where
Speaker 1: time stands Still. On the counter remains a ledger with
Speaker 1: customers names and amounts they owed. Though the family never
Speaker 1: re entered the store, they lived out their remaining years
Speaker 1: in the two floors of living space above. Sybil Phelps,
Speaker 1: Julius and Maymie's only child, had hoped to make it
Speaker 1: as a musician or an actor, attending Rochester's eastmand School
Speaker 1: of Music, followed by drama school in New York City.
Speaker 1: In addition to singing, she played the organ, piano, and guitar. However,
Speaker 1: her drama school shut down due to the Great Depression
Speaker 1: and her family's money had run out. Sybil unhappily returned
Speaker 1: home in nineteen twenty six, taking up work as a
Speaker 1: tombstone distributor and earning money through piano lessons. Around the
Speaker 1: time of Sibyl's return to Palmyra, she discovered spiritualism, which
Speaker 1: had started about eighty years prior in nearby Hydesville, New York.
Speaker 1: As she delve deeper into her interests in numerology and astrology,
Speaker 1: Sybil became known as a recluse in town. Although she
Speaker 1: had frequent correspondence with people who shared her interest circus performers, musicians,
Speaker 1: and actors, including a year's long correspondence with Greta Garbo,
Speaker 1: some locals thought she was more than just a recluse,
Speaker 1: interpreting her old fashioned black dresses and wide brimmed hats
Speaker 1: as witches garb. Though she lived in her parents large house,
Speaker 1: she lived without electricity or running water. The Victorian style
Speaker 1: home ran on gas lamps installed by her grandfather William,
Speaker 1: and used an outhouse behind the store. She also had
Speaker 1: as many as fifteen cats at a time. The number
Speaker 1: of mirrors in the home, especially those facing each other,
Speaker 1: leeds former museum director Bonnie Hayes to believe she practiced
Speaker 1: s crying with them. Some think Sybil also made use
Speaker 1: of a crystal ball. She lived in the house until
Speaker 1: her death in nineteen seventy six, the year after Historic
Speaker 1: Palmyra bought the building and turned it into a museum.
Speaker 1: The first floor grocery store museum is a tribute to
Speaker 1: how people shopped nearly a century ago. The upper two
Speaker 1: stories are a tribute to how they lived. The Phelps'
Speaker 1: original furniture, including their piano, is still present in the
Speaker 1: family's eight rooms, which included a dining room with lace
Speaker 1: curtains and a table set for afternoon tea, a sitting room,
Speaker 1: and a sick room where Sibyl's grandparents and parents are
Speaker 1: all believed to have spent their final days. Local spiritualists
Speaker 1: celebrate Sibyl's birthday every year on October tenth, and it's
Speaker 1: said that she often makes appearances at these parties. But
Speaker 1: that's not the only day Sybil makes appearances in the
Speaker 1: home where she lived and died. One employee at the
Speaker 1: museum was vacuum the third floor when he saw a
Speaker 1: full body manifestation of Sybil Phelps, according to The Daily Messenger.
Speaker 1: According to this employee, Phelps told him not to touch
Speaker 1: her things, he's refused to enter the third floor again.
Speaker 1: Others have claimed to see Sybil walking through the kitchen
Speaker 1: or sitting at her piano on the second floor. According
Speaker 1: to Ghosts and Hauntings of the finger Legs, an impression
Speaker 1: of a figure has often been seen in the bed
Speaker 1: in her room in the southeast corner of the third floor.
Speaker 1: Visitors who sit at the dining room table on the
Speaker 1: second floor also report the sound of a spoon clinking
Speaker 1: against a teacup. People report hearing piano music on the
Speaker 1: upstairs floors, said to be Sybil playing the piano, or
Speaker 1: sometimes her cats walking across the keys. The cats in
Speaker 1: particular pop up often. Visitors have reported hearing them meow,
Speaker 1: feeling them rub against their legs, and even seeing them
Speaker 1: walk through the place. On the first floor, people hear
Speaker 1: disembodied voices they send someone breathe in their ear, and
Speaker 1: sometimes smell the scent of phantom cigars. The lamp in
Speaker 1: the store is said to swing gently, even in the
Speaker 1: absence of a breeze. Investigators have recorded EVPs that sound
Speaker 1: like a voice listing prices, which they believe is a
Speaker 1: residual haunting. When a ghost leaves a psychic imprint on
Speaker 1: the place on the second floor. According to Ghosts and
Speaker 1: Hauntings of the finger Lakes, the shadow of a small
Speaker 1: boy appears running through the kitchen before disappearing into the door,
Speaker 1: which rattles as it passes through it. The spirit of
Speaker 1: a child named Holly, said to be an eight year
Speaker 1: old girl who died in eighteen thirty six, has been
Speaker 1: said to be present in the sitting room on the
Speaker 1: second floor. As The Daily Messenger reported, the child is
Speaker 1: best known for touching visitors hands when they sit on
Speaker 1: a chair next to the table she is allegedly hiding
Speaker 1: under with several other spirit children. One visitor saw what
Speaker 1: she thought was a doll in the room, only to
Speaker 1: realize that there was no doll present. Holly's identity is unknown,
Speaker 1: but some thing she was a resident of the boarding
Speaker 1: house from before the Phelps family moved in. Others believe
Speaker 1: she was the victim of a horse accident in front
Speaker 1: of the store. Even Julius himself is suspected of haunting
Speaker 1: the building. He's especially sensed in the sick room on
Speaker 1: the second floor. According to Ghosts and Hauntings of the
Speaker 1: finger Legs, he doesn't want anyone especially women in there.
Speaker 1: Julius doesn't really make his presence known, however, anyone can
Speaker 1: sense a heaviness in the air as he waits impatiently
Speaker 1: for them to move along. He still likes his privacy,
Speaker 1: just as he did when he was alive. Up next,
Speaker 1: we will be talking to the museum's director, Tracy Murphy.
Speaker 1: She is one of the most engaging people I've met
Speaker 1: on a case, and she's incredibly knowledgeable on not only
Speaker 1: the history of the museum, but it's many haunts. So
Speaker 1: that is coming up after the break. So I am
Speaker 1: now joined by Tracy Murphy, who is the director of
Speaker 1: the Palmira Museum and someone that we worked with when
Speaker 1: we filmed Kindred Spirits there. So it's great to hear
Speaker 1: your voice, Tracy.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Amy, thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1: Of course, to this day, I would say that the
Speaker 1: museum is probably one of my favorite places I've ever investigated.
Speaker 1: It's just, to me, one of the most haunted places
Speaker 1: I've ever been.
Speaker 3: I love doing it.
Speaker 1: You get to work there every day, yes, I do.
Speaker 1: And you know, we were there for like four or
Speaker 1: five days and the activity was just incessant and we
Speaker 1: couldn't even show it all on the show, and so
Speaker 1: is it just like that all the time being there?
Speaker 2: I would say ninety percent of the time. All of
Speaker 2: the buildings have some activity going on any given day
Speaker 2: at any given time.
Speaker 1: So I think that's really interesting because well, the activity
Speaker 1: that we encountered was well, at one point in the basement,
Speaker 1: we did have something slam on the door very loudly
Speaker 1: and just it was very much like I couldn't tell
Speaker 1: if it was trying to get our attention or if
Speaker 1: it was trying to tell us to like get out
Speaker 1: of there. What is your impression of activity like that
Speaker 1: when it happens.
Speaker 2: Most of the time, if it has to do with
Speaker 2: the basement, I prefer not to be involved. The basement
Speaker 2: is just one of the creepiest places in the whole museum.
Speaker 2: And I know people will say, well, basements are kind
Speaker 2: of creepy, but ours just has a special vibe to it.
Speaker 2: And quite honestly, if we hear like it sounds like
Speaker 2: something is fallen down in the basement, we tend to
Speaker 2: ignore it until we have a volunteer come in and
Speaker 2: then I'll send them down to investigate.
Speaker 1: Do they know this or is this going to be
Speaker 1: news to them when they listen to the FOD.
Speaker 2: This is probably going to be news to them. I mean,
Speaker 2: never have another volunteer.
Speaker 1: Everyone has to, you know, do their part, especially with
Speaker 1: their new bees.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a test of strength.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think when we were down there,
Speaker 1: it almost seemed like there was someone hiding down there.
Speaker 1: Was the vibe. Was the vibe that we got, and
Speaker 1: like they we were getting kind of too close for
Speaker 1: their comfort, is what it seemed like. And I think
Speaker 1: Chip picked up on that as well. But then in
Speaker 1: the rest of the location, it just seems like a
Speaker 1: lot of different spirits. I think people probably focus on
Speaker 1: the fire a lot, but I think there's so much
Speaker 1: going on. Who do you think is like, maybe your
Speaker 1: most prevalent spirits there?
Speaker 2: I would say generally the bartender is very present in
Speaker 2: the front of the building, in the bar room itself.
Speaker 2: But we also have been getting and I think we
Speaker 2: touched on this too, that we've been getting some different visitors.
Speaker 2: One of them was the little boy that his portrait
Speaker 2: is on the wall and he really didn't have anything
Speaker 2: to do with the museums, but he comes in. We
Speaker 2: do have some shadowy figure that's upstairs in the hallway
Speaker 2: at the end. We don't really know who he is,
Speaker 2: but he's up there quite a bit. And I think
Speaker 2: that's one of the more interesting things about our building,
Speaker 2: especially the historical museum, is because it was a hotel,
Speaker 2: we had so many visitors, and I think there is
Speaker 2: some bit of a residual effect that they have left.
Speaker 1: Now, what about the poker playing ghost. Is he still around?
Speaker 3: So Jack, Yes, Jack is still around.
Speaker 2: We're getting ready to collect.
Speaker 3: His pot, so to speak.
Speaker 2: We've got quite a pile of money over the around
Speaker 2: the bed. We have one more ghost for the month,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna wait and see, you know how what
Speaker 2: his winnings are because he's really good at his game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was something we couldn't show on the
Speaker 1: episode either. But we did play blackjack with him, and
Speaker 1: I did win a few hands, i must say, but
Speaker 1: he was quite a character. And so I think the
Speaker 1: way we did this, and trying to remember, I think
Speaker 1: the way we did it was either with the K
Speaker 1: two or the spirit box, but basically we kind of
Speaker 1: made a signal for like, you know, stay hit yep. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it worked. I was like, I'm I feel I'm
Speaker 1: literally playing blackjack with a ghost exactly.
Speaker 2: Yes, And you know, it's so fascinating because I think
Speaker 2: that shows people how intelligent they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it also shows you know, the power of
Speaker 1: a gambling addiction. It follows you in the afterlife. The
Speaker 1: other spirit that we encountered that did not make the show,
Speaker 1: but still stands as one of the most wild experiences
Speaker 1: I've had. And I'm pretty sure we played you the
Speaker 1: audio from this. But so what people don't know, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry if you haven't. If the people haven't watched the
Speaker 1: episode of Kindred Spirits, I highly recommend you go check
Speaker 1: it out if you haven't. What people don't know is
Speaker 1: that we had to cut one of two things. It
Speaker 1: was either cut the whole Sybil seance session, which Sybil
Speaker 1: was a spiritualist who we believe haunts the building, or
Speaker 1: cut the crazy experience that we had with the woman
Speaker 1: moaning walking down the stairs. And so we had to
Speaker 1: cut the woman moaning walking down or the hallway rather.
Speaker 1: And so that moment was we were standing in the
Speaker 1: doctor's room and there was this doctor's bag that I'm
Speaker 1: sure we remember that seemed to have some energy attached
Speaker 1: to it that was negative and did not like women
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and so we moved that bag. Adam
Speaker 1: moved it, but he didn't tell me where he put it,
Speaker 1: and apparently he put it in some sort of women's
Speaker 1: history room.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in our morning room of all places, oh.
Speaker 1: In the morning.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the next thing you know, we hear this very
Speaker 1: typical like this sounded like you would expect a ghost
Speaker 1: to hear. We hear coming down the hallway footsteps and
Speaker 1: this voice that is just like like this wailing ghost.
Speaker 1: And I looked at Adam and I was like, what
Speaker 1: is that? And our entire crew was just like bewildered.
Speaker 1: We'd never heard anything like that. And I'm like, Ana,
Speaker 1: where did you put the bag? And he was like,
Speaker 1: the morning.
Speaker 2: Room, not.
Speaker 1: Whatever. I could remember what it was, but just remembered
Speaker 1: it being like the wrong place. And so I might
Speaker 1: be able to dig that audio up and play it
Speaker 1: on the podcast because it was so awesome.
Speaker 2: What that's the hallway? Is that it's like something moving?
Speaker 2: Then is there anyone shuffling their feet? Did you hear
Speaker 2: the howling? Yeah? You heard that writing like a woman moaning.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, literally, ghost, a ghost and a creek is
Speaker 1: a creek and a.
Speaker 2: But it was coming from the hallway, not in here.
Speaker 1: What was going on here?
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know. Maybe they're maybe they're banking what
Speaker 2: they're hearing.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're pissed you put that bag off the you pissed?
Speaker 1: There's the bag is out there and that goes you
Speaker 1: put in the doll room?
Speaker 2: No, no, where'd you put it in the morning room? No?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we said put it somewhere, and you don't know,
Speaker 1: I put it in the morning room.
Speaker 3: So maybe somebody's like, no.
Speaker 1: We'll bring it back in here in a second.
Speaker 2: Hold on, there could be somebody from that morning, because
Speaker 2: that's for the sound of morning, isn't it the sound
Speaker 2: of morning? The oh I want to cry right now.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I can't believe this is happening. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so that was a wild moment. Have you heard that
Speaker 1: since or had you heard that before?
Speaker 2: We've heard crying, but not to that extent. You know,
Speaker 2: usually we hear a little like weeping or you know,
Speaker 2: just a little and sniffles, but not to that extent.
Speaker 2: That was definitely, that was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: So everyone wants to know what did you do with
Speaker 1: the haunted doctor bag?
Speaker 2: Well, we tell people when they ask that they have
Speaker 2: to come and find out for themselves.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, that's fair. Still I have always encouraged
Speaker 1: people to visit.
Speaker 3: We still have it.
Speaker 1: Oh and the doctor's room, I.
Speaker 2: Have to say, has changed a little bit. It's not
Speaker 2: as heavy as it was before. However, people and mostly
Speaker 2: women still go in and say it doesn't feel.
Speaker 1: Good in here. Yeah, yeah, but not to the extent
Speaker 1: I don't believe it, which is good to know. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: So do you think that those children haunt the building
Speaker 1: from the fire?
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think they're they're haunting us. They're here,
Speaker 2: We do experience, you know, we see them every once
Speaker 2: in a while. It's actually kind of interesting saying that
Speaker 2: they've been spotted at the Phelps.
Speaker 3: In the in the upstairs, so they're.
Speaker 4: Actually Now we've had mediums and sensitives that have been
Speaker 4: experiencing three of the children, and not the two that
Speaker 4: we typically interact with over here.
Speaker 2: These are the two sisters and one of the brothers.
Speaker 2: And it's very strange because this particular group they didn't
Speaker 2: really know anything about the family, They didn't really want
Speaker 2: to know a lot of things, and so when they
Speaker 2: were over there, this person saw three children very clearly
Speaker 2: asked them, what are your names? Came back over here
Speaker 2: for you know, validation, and I said, oh, I can
Speaker 2: tell you. You know, we we have children over here.
Speaker 2: I can raw out some names. And it was three
Speaker 2: of their names.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. And so now remind me the Phelps building is?
Speaker 1: Which building is where Sybil?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's upstairs in that beautiful kind of.
Speaker 2: Victorian And it was on the second floor, yes, which
Speaker 2: is very strange to me because normally, you know, we
Speaker 2: have a couple children over there that we're familiar with,
Speaker 2: but it's never been the children from here at the
Speaker 2: at the historical.
Speaker 1: What do you think is drawing them over there and.
Speaker 2: Not really she I don't know if it's like a
Speaker 2: sense of comfort that maybe Sybil presents to them. You know,
Speaker 2: we've often wondered, because Sybil was here in nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: four when the fire took place, did she see them,
Speaker 2: you know, after before during It's a lot there's a
Speaker 2: lot of questions, you know, with.
Speaker 1: That, right. I Actually I remember pondering that as well,
Speaker 1: because she definitely would have been alive and living in
Speaker 1: that building at the time, probably fearful for her own
Speaker 1: house at the time too.
Speaker 2: Well, and I'm sure they have evacuated her because you know,
Speaker 2: being so close, she was only a building away, so
Speaker 2: you know, it would seem to me that it would
Speaker 2: make sense that you're going to evacuate the buildings around
Speaker 2: the big fire, and so she would have been outside, you.
Speaker 1: Know, right, I mean she may have even come to
Speaker 1: think she may have even known those children in life, right.
Speaker 2: That's what I was thinking too, because we do know
Speaker 2: that the older boy, Eddie, he was nine, and he
Speaker 2: did remember, you know, he used to say, mister Phelps
Speaker 2: is mean her father. So it makes you wonder what
Speaker 2: kind of interactions she had with them. You know, she
Speaker 2: was kind of keep to herself, kind of gale, but
Speaker 2: you know, who knows. I just it's so.
Speaker 3: It's just so interesting to me.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a very complicated haunt because it has so
Speaker 1: many different players, Like there's so many different intelligent type
Speaker 1: spirit it's there, And if you really think about it,
Speaker 1: was Sybil like her belief in life was that, you know,
Speaker 1: we survived in the afterlife somehow. She was a spiritualist,
Speaker 1: a very active spiritualist. She worked very hard to commemorate
Speaker 1: the Fox Sisters memorial. You know, and so it would
Speaker 1: make sense that she would be very intrigued with what
Speaker 1: you're doing there and with the you know, existence of
Speaker 1: spirits in the space. And so maybe now with so
Speaker 1: much back and forth and people investigating it, I mean,
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe that kind of brought them together in
Speaker 1: some way.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: And everybody is always curious, you know, like, oh, have
Speaker 2: your investigations ramped up after Kindred Spirits work here? And
Speaker 2: I always say yes, they most certainly did. We find
Speaker 2: that Sybil enjoyed her fifteen minutes of fame and she
Speaker 2: wants more. Definitely.
Speaker 1: So are you saying she's a little more active than
Speaker 1: she was before.
Speaker 3: Yes, definitely.
Speaker 2: And it's not in a very she's not subtle about it,
Speaker 2: Like she's very good now about presenting herself in a
Speaker 2: very large, loud way. There's no staffing her.
Speaker 1: Now what does she do?
Speaker 2: We've been getting a lot of very loud bangs over there.
Speaker 2: Now she will come to the spirit box.
Speaker 3: And we'll talk to our visitors.
Speaker 2: Just very interesting things. Funny story. We just we had
Speaker 2: our exterminator here. They come twice a year for us
Speaker 2: to spray on the outsides of the building and inside.
Speaker 2: If we need them, and he came right to the
Speaker 2: building and he said, listen, I was here last year.
Speaker 2: I wasn't even going to tell my boss that I
Speaker 2: wasn't that I wasn't going to go in. I was
Speaker 2: just going to park my car out from to show
Speaker 2: I was here because last year. He said, I didn't
Speaker 2: even touch any of the stairs coming off the third floor.
Speaker 2: I'm not going in there. And I just looked at
Speaker 2: him and I was like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: And he's like, I was on the third floor and
Speaker 2: I heard a woman's voice say, don't touch my dress.
Speaker 2: And I just I said, why don't you tell us
Speaker 2: these things? And he's like, I'm not going in there alone.
Speaker 2: You have to be with me. You know what?
Speaker 1: Goodness, was there a dress up there?
Speaker 2: There is a dress in the other room that belonged
Speaker 2: to her, and you know, maybe he was getting too
Speaker 2: close to it and she didn't like it. But he's
Speaker 2: not the first person to report to us that she
Speaker 2: was very verbal about leaving my stuff alone.
Speaker 1: Wow, go Sybil. I do know when we were doing
Speaker 1: the seance with our psychic Heather, who is amazing, there
Speaker 1: were these moments where we were just all hearing footsteps
Speaker 1: walk across the floor to us so loud, and then
Speaker 1: it was almost like someone was standing there kind of
Speaker 1: thinking about entering the circle. We save the space for Sybil,
Speaker 1: and you could hear like kind of a rocking and
Speaker 1: like someone just standing there. And again, this this was
Speaker 1: probably the one case where like our entire crew was
Speaker 1: just like what is going on here? Usually they're just
Speaker 1: I mean, they have experiences, but many times our camera
Speaker 1: crew they're all business. You say them, they're very hard working,
Speaker 1: they're you know they but they are like non stop.
Speaker 1: They don't really have time to have experiences sometimes. But
Speaker 1: this was the one place where, like, you know, at night,
Speaker 1: we'll all go back to the hotel and shit chat
Speaker 1: for a little while after we're done filming. And this
Speaker 1: was the one place where they were like they didn't
Speaker 1: like having to go up to that third floor by themselves.
Speaker 1: They didn't like having to go into the basement alone.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, and all these are pretty tough guys exactly so,
Speaker 1: but they admitted it like that that that place felt different,
Speaker 1: and it really does. Everywhere you go through the building
Speaker 1: feel you feel something, and each area feels differently, like
Speaker 1: sometimes you feel very happy and safe sometimes you feel
Speaker 1: like somebody's watching me. So now, have you had any
Speaker 1: recent people come in who just had had enough and
Speaker 1: had to leave and didn't want to come.
Speaker 2: Back other than our bun guy. No, his poor face,
Speaker 2: and you know we knew he was genuine because he
Speaker 2: really was, Like I wasn't even going to come in,
Speaker 2: Like we've lost people because of your buildings, and I'm
Speaker 2: just like, oh gosh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3: Let us know.
Speaker 2: We'll go in prior and say, hey, guys, we get
Speaker 2: the bug. People come in today, be nice. But no,
Speaker 2: you know, I think the really neat thing about our
Speaker 2: buildings when we have investigators come in, there's always something
Speaker 2: that leads them wanting just a little bit more, which
Speaker 2: is great because you know, sometimes you go to a location,
Speaker 2: maybe you get a little bit, maybe you don't get anything.
Speaker 2: And not to say that you know everybody who comes
Speaker 2: to her gets something.
Speaker 3: Because sometimes you don't. But we find like.
Speaker 2: We get a lot of people who want to come
Speaker 2: back because there was so much and they want to
Speaker 2: investigate just a little bit more or go in a
Speaker 2: different direction, which is really.
Speaker 3: Cool to me. And I love seeing the old school stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's definitely the camp that I'm in,
Speaker 1: Like that was one of those places that just got
Speaker 1: me really excited about the paranormal, you know, and I
Speaker 1: think I could see how that, you know, I want
Speaker 1: to tell people that if you go to this, to
Speaker 1: Paulmyra and you investigate here, just know that not every haunt.
Speaker 2: Is like that, right exactly.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's not usually that easy, and I'm sure there's
Speaker 1: times people come in and it's quiet, of course, but
Speaker 1: like for us, that was never a factor, Like it
Speaker 1: was just nonstops. Now when they do kind of go quiet,
Speaker 1: do you ever think there's a reason, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I think that it's like it's kind of like
Speaker 2: us on the other side that you know, maybe they're
Speaker 2: just tired, you know, maybe they're taking a break because
Speaker 2: you know, you can't.
Speaker 3: Be on all the time.
Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes I think if we were booked,
Speaker 2: you know, every single weekend of the month, something's.
Speaker 3: Got to give, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I personally, when I come back in my
Speaker 2: next life, I don't want to keep answering questions like
Speaker 2: are you there?
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm here, you know, So.
Speaker 2: I think they just kind of go they just take
Speaker 2: the day.
Speaker 3: Off, and I don't blame them.
Speaker 2: I would too, and that's what we tell people. You know,
Speaker 2: we cannot guarantee that you're going to get something every
Speaker 2: time you come, because obviously they have minds of their
Speaker 2: own and they're going to do what they're going to do,
Speaker 2: So it can be difficult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that actually brings up a good point. We do frequently.
Speaker 1: It's telpe people to kind of think outside the box
Speaker 1: when you're approaching these spirits, just because in places that
Speaker 1: are investigated, they do get a lot of the same
Speaker 1: question over and over again, and they get asked to
Speaker 1: do the same thing over and over again, and then
Speaker 1: they kind of become like they're performing for you.
Speaker 2: At that point, I think they're desensitized.
Speaker 1: Yes, so you have to kind of think what can
Speaker 1: I give them and like what can I how can
Speaker 1: I make this a rewarding experience for them? Like what
Speaker 1: can I do here that will have them want to
Speaker 1: interact not just because I'm asking them to, but because
Speaker 1: I'm offering them something. You know, May that be information,
Speaker 1: may that be assistance in some way. And so especially
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with a location filled with intelligent haunts
Speaker 1: like yours, you really do have to bring your a.
Speaker 3: Game, Yes, you do.
Speaker 2: You do. And I think they recognize that too, which
Speaker 2: you know, definitely more more disappoint that's being here. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm here Tuesday through Saturday, so you know, when I'm
Speaker 2: here during the day, it's it's the museums. It's our job.
Speaker 2: We do tours. Some people will come for a tour
Speaker 2: and they'll ask questions and then you know, we're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: you want to know about this part of our business.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm always asking, you know, when I
Speaker 2: go into the building morning, Sybil, how are you you
Speaker 2: know we're going to be doing this today.
Speaker 3: We're going to do this today.
Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, I'm always like,
Speaker 2: good afternoon, you know, have a great day. We'll see
Speaker 2: in the morning.
Speaker 3: Like we're leaving for the day.
Speaker 2: So we're very respectful in Sibyl's home because it's.
Speaker 1: Her home, right and you're so you're keeping her kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, abreast of what's going on, which I think
Speaker 1: is important too. It's kind of like when you go
Speaker 1: like not like it's going to domeor like going to
Speaker 1: the doc office, when they're explaining to you every single
Speaker 1: thing they're doing to make you feel more comfortable. You know,
Speaker 1: obviously it's not to that extent, but it is this
Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, recognizing that you're in someone's
Speaker 1: space and kind of giving them a step by step
Speaker 1: of like what your plans are. Plus I feel like
Speaker 1: Sybil probably really likes you at this point. She seems to,
Speaker 1: so she probably wants to know what's going on in
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 3: Oh definitely.
Speaker 2: And there's there's times, you know, when we send the
Speaker 2: girls down to clean the store, and I'm always like,
Speaker 2: you know, when we go behind the counter, when you're
Speaker 2: by the safe, just let William know we're just cleaning
Speaker 2: because we don't want them to be upset. And you know,
Speaker 2: he does get upset when we go back there, so
Speaker 2: you know, it's just kind of being respectful. And some
Speaker 2: people kind of give us the side eye, like what
Speaker 2: are you doing? But it's just part of what we do.
Speaker 1: So do you think so you think he gets upset
Speaker 1: of people who are not employees or behind the counter.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: And so what happens is there activity that goes along
Speaker 1: with that.
Speaker 2: Usually he like we had an incident where he was
Speaker 2: not happy with someone being back there and the glass
Speaker 2: that covers some of the counter got broken and it
Speaker 2: was because we had people back there. But when I've
Speaker 2: gone back there before, I've had my hair pulled, I've
Speaker 2: had like a little nudge to kind of get out
Speaker 2: of that area. So you know, we always let him know, hey,
Speaker 2: this is where I'm this is what I'm doing. I'm
Speaker 2: not anywhere near the safe you know, we're we're just
Speaker 2: here to clean.
Speaker 3: And it seems to.
Speaker 1: Well, that has to be a challenge. Yeah, that has
Speaker 1: to be a challenge too, because you know, you have
Speaker 1: people who want interactions so badly they might be tempted
Speaker 1: to go back there and agitate him. Yeah, there are
Speaker 1: people that you know, that's one of the things we
Speaker 1: always say, please, you know, don't do that. Yeah, so, yes,
Speaker 1: you don't want you don't want activity to agitation, just
Speaker 1: you know, for the well being of the location and
Speaker 1: you who have to be there all the time, and
Speaker 1: as you know, with respect to the spirit as well.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that's happened in the past though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's you know, it's difficult because you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes people watch certain shows and you know, and there's
Speaker 2: a little bit of you know, confrontation or you know,
Speaker 2: you know, please you better make a noise or we're
Speaker 2: going to do this, and we always try to make
Speaker 2: sure you know that. We're like, listen, we don't do
Speaker 2: that here. If you get something, that's great, and if
Speaker 2: you don't, that's okay too, But we certainly don't sit
Speaker 2: here and try to bring them out with you know, meanness.
Speaker 2: You don't try not to be mean. But I and
Speaker 2: I think with the Phelps the store, definitely, with the
Speaker 2: upstairs residence, you see people change a little bit because
Speaker 2: they realize it is somebody home. Someone lived there from
Speaker 2: eighteen sixty eight until nineteen seventy six. So I think
Speaker 2: that kind of changes the vibe when they come in there,
Speaker 2: because at first, you know, everybody's jaw drops like wow,
Speaker 2: this place is incredible, you know, and then they hear
Speaker 2: the history and it's like, whoa, this is even more
Speaker 2: incredible than I thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. It is truly a very special place,
Speaker 1: and I cannot wait to get back there and visit.
Speaker 1: And so now, if people want to come visit, or
Speaker 1: if they want to support the museum in any way,
Speaker 1: what do you recommend?
Speaker 2: I would recommend that they go to our website, which
Speaker 2: is www. Historic Palmyra, NY dot com. We have all
Speaker 2: the information on there about our museums, our hours, we
Speaker 2: have our investigations on there. You know what to expect
Speaker 2: things like that. We also have a Facebook pie Start Palmyra, Palmyron,
Speaker 2: New York. So those are a couple avenues. They can
Speaker 2: always call me, they can you know, email aus. We're
Speaker 2: open for anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tracy's always there. She never leaves.
Speaker 2: Right if I'm not here, I'm at the Fox property.
Speaker 3: So it's you know.
Speaker 1: That, I know, a whole other ball game. Absolutely so
Speaker 1: for people that don't know, Tracy's also the caretaker for
Speaker 1: the original Fox Sisters cabin, like the foundation of it,
Speaker 1: and so if you are not familiar with the Fox Sisters,
Speaker 1: go look that up right now. But that is probably
Speaker 1: one of the most, if not the most important piece
Speaker 1: of spiritualist history in America, and Tracy looks after it,
Speaker 1: which I love. We actually filmed there briefly, but again,
Speaker 1: just too many hauntings at the Palmyra Museum. We didn't
Speaker 1: have time to show it. It's too many ghosts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to come back for a whole week.
Speaker 1: Seriously, I could an. I wanna thank you so much
Speaker 1: for fitting me into your schedule and you're busy and
Speaker 1: it's lovely to hear your voice, and I really do
Speaker 1: hope to get back there very study. So thank you, Tracy.
Speaker 1: To this day, the Palmira Museum stands as one of
Speaker 1: the top most haunted places I've ever experienced. From the
Speaker 1: second I set inside to the second I departed, the
Speaker 1: activity and feeling of other worldly presences was constant. I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily think it's the breeding children, or not entirely them.
Speaker 1: There is something about that place, the items inside, the
Speaker 1: history of each space that has bred the perfect haunt.
Speaker 1: Not scary, not desperate, but very very active. I highly
Speaker 1: recommend you make the trip. And if you do, tell
Speaker 1: Tracy and the staff, I said, Hils, let them know
Speaker 1: it will not be long before I am back. I
Speaker 1: am Amy Bruney and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road
Speaker 1: is hosted and written by me Amy Bruney, with additional
Speaker 1: research by Taylor Haggerdorn and Cassandra de Alba. This show
Speaker 1: is edited and produced by rema El Kali, with supervising
Speaker 1: producer Josh Thain and executive producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams,
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is a production of iHeartRadio
Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Learn more about
Speaker 1: this show over at Grimanmild dot com, and for more
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.