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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hey,

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Speaker 1: Smarty's today's guest is someone I am so thrilled to

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Speaker 1: be talking to because the world feels heavy and hard,

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Speaker 1: and some of the conflicts that it seems like we're

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Speaker 1: up against as open hearted humans are almost unbearable to watch,

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Speaker 1: certainly really difficult to process, and I think they can

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Speaker 1: breed a sense of helplessness, not knowing what to do,

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Speaker 1: how to help, where to turn, what to say, how

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Speaker 1: to make the best use of your time and resources

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Speaker 1: to actually help people instead of add to the mess

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Speaker 1: and the noise. And that is where Search for Common

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Speaker 1: Ground comes in. They are the world's largest dedicated peace

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Speaker 1: building organization, and today I have managed to carve out

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Speaker 1: a quick interview with Shamil Idris, who is the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Search for Common Ground. He has led their efforts

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Speaker 1: to end violent conflict in more than thirty five countries globally,

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Speaker 1: including some of the most devastating conflict zones we have

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Speaker 1: all studied or are currently watching, in the Middle East

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Speaker 1: and in Africa. Shamil was appointed in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: five by the UN Secretary General Kofianan as the Deputy

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Speaker 1: Director of the UN Alliance of Civilizations. In this role,

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Speaker 1: he supported high level political and religious leaders in developing

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Speaker 1: policy recommendations and action plans to improve cross cultural relations

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Speaker 1: between Western and Muslim majority countries before, during, and after

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Speaker 1: the Arab Spring revolutions. During his tenure at the UN,

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Speaker 1: he worked closely with policymakers from the US, Europe, and

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Speaker 1: the Middle East and Africa in conceiving and implementing conflict

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Speaker 1: pro mention projects and increasing cross cultural understanding. Shamil is

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Speaker 1: a pioneer in the use of interactive media technologies for

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Speaker 1: cross cultural education and collaboration, and he delivered an incredible

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Speaker 1: ted X presentation recently on the Truths about Violent Conflict

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Speaker 1: that you absolutely have to watch. When I really feel

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Speaker 1: like I just don't know what to do anymore, He's

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Speaker 1: one of the first people I call to say what now,

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Speaker 1: And so I'm really grateful that he took the time

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Speaker 1: today to join us and to hopefully point us all

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Speaker 1: in the direction of a little more hope and a

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Speaker 1: little more understanding. Shamil, thank you so much for coming

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Speaker 1: to join me today. I'm so grateful in a moment

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Speaker 1: like this, when I think things feel immensely fraught and terrifying,

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Speaker 1: and we see parts of history repeating themselves and now

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Speaker 1: we see it twenty four hours a day through our phones,

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Speaker 1: and everyone feels stressed, helpless, overwhelmed. I'm just curious if

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Speaker 1: you could start for those who might not know, and

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Speaker 1: explain what the mission of Search for Common Ground is.

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Speaker 2: So Search for Common Ground is a global peace building organization,

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Speaker 2: and our mission is to transform the way the world

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Speaker 2: deals with conflict away from sort of adversarial kind of

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Speaker 2: win lose approaches toward cooperative problem solving. So we're really

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Speaker 2: not here to end conflict. We see conflict as a

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Speaker 2: very natural thing, and you know, if it's handled well,

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Speaker 2: it can actually be the most generative and creative force.

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Speaker 2: It can be actually wonderful, and if it's handled badly,

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Speaker 2: it can be horrible, and we see plenty of evidence

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Speaker 2: of that today. But our mission is to transform conflict

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Speaker 2: in cooperation incredible.

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Speaker 1: So when you talk about global peace building, it's a

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Speaker 1: lovely turn of phrase, but I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people don't really know what peace building actually entails. You know,

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Speaker 1: how do you define what the most important aspects or

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Speaker 1: perhaps pillars of peace building are?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean, first just so your listeners are

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Speaker 2: where you know we've got We've got about eight hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty full time staff in thirty six countries and

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Speaker 2: many more partners and volunteers, and so this is not

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Speaker 2: a small operation and we're one of, frankly a growing

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Speaker 2: number of peace building organizations. And I think part of

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Speaker 2: why we're seeing that is that, you know, just like

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Speaker 2: you sometimes have to have a breakdown to have a breakthrough,

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Speaker 2: I think just as you started this conversation, you're not

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Speaker 2: dreaming it, you're not imagining it. You know, the world

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Speaker 2: is increasingly conflictual and not an a good way. You know,

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Speaker 2: polarization is on the rise, and so you know that

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Speaker 2: leads to a lot of bad things, but those triggers

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Speaker 2: a lot of you know, really positive energy. To answer

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Speaker 2: your question, you know, we looked at we've identified what

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Speaker 2: we think are what I would call the five vital

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Speaker 2: signs of a healthy society. Many years ago, there's a

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Speaker 2: big shift in the medical community away from just treating

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Speaker 2: disease to preventing disease to promoting a healthy lifestyle. And

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Speaker 2: that was revolutionary, and a big part of that was

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Speaker 2: scientists and doctors figuring out, well, what are the vital

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Speaker 2: signs of a healthy human being. And there's enough consensus

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Speaker 2: now on those same aid vital signs that if you

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Speaker 2: go to a doctor pretty much anywhere in the world,

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Speaker 2: the first thing they're going to do is test your

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Speaker 2: eight vital signs and then it's the same ones everywhere. Right. Well,

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Speaker 2: we haven't had that until recently for a healthy society,

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Speaker 2: and so I'll share with you the five vital signs

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Speaker 2: of a healthy societies. We understand them. And as I

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Speaker 2: share them, just keep in mind this isn't like all

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Speaker 2: good things. If we wanted to list all good things,

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Speaker 2: it would probably be on vital science. This is specifically

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Speaker 2: helping us understand is this a society that's likely to

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Speaker 2: fall apart when there's a crisis, an attempted assassination as

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Speaker 2: we just had a pandemic, an earthquake, whatever it might be.

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Speaker 2: Or is this society that's likely to hold maybe even

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Speaker 2: come together around those kinds of crises. And so those

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Speaker 2: five pillars are The first one is intercommunal trust Black, white, Muslim, Jewish, rural, urban,

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be. Republican Democrats who took depending on

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Speaker 2: your society, like just trust between communities The second is

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Speaker 2: institutional legitimacy, which you can kind of think of as

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Speaker 2: trust for institutions like the institutions that govern and serve us,

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Speaker 2: the police, sure, the judiciary. It doesn't have to be

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Speaker 2: just government. It could be the media. Do people trust

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Speaker 2: the media? So do people have any faith and trust

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Speaker 2: in those institutions? The third is levels of physical violence,

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Speaker 2: because violence tends to be get more violence. The fourth

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Speaker 2: is really subjective. It's people's sense of agency. Can I

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Speaker 2: do anything that will improve my lot in life, that

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Speaker 2: will improve my kid's future, that will protect my community?

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Speaker 2: Do people feel that sense of agency?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: And the fifth is resources, like where are societies resources

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Speaker 2: going to? Is it going to more reactive stuff, more

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Speaker 2: top down controls, more prisons, more guns, more restrictions, or

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Speaker 2: are resources going more into more upstream things that build community,

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Speaker 2: that build that trust between you know, you and me,

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Speaker 2: that build that trust for institutions, et ceterat. So those

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Speaker 2: are the five things that we look at everywhere from

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Speaker 2: literally Texas to me and mar And when we think

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Speaker 2: about a healthy society, we think about, you know, where

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Speaker 2: is society trending along those five? And unfortunately it's true

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Speaker 2: that the US has been in recent years more than

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Speaker 2: a decade, trending in a very negative direction pretty much

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Speaker 2: on all five of those. But the good news is

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Speaker 2: that is not at all irreversible and we can all

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Speaker 2: do something about that.

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Speaker 1: And now for our sponsors, And when you say it's

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Speaker 1: not irreversible, you know you you come from an organization

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Speaker 1: with expertise in places like working on patching up the

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Speaker 1: immense societal you know, rips, tears, devastation of for example,

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Speaker 1: the Rwandan genocide, like these are these are not you know,

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Speaker 1: small eye issues. And I'm curious when you talk about resolution,

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Speaker 1: when you talk about how, you know, the negative trending

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Speaker 1: that we see in our country, for example, and that

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Speaker 1: we're seeing in certain places around the world, how do

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Speaker 1: you begin to reverse that? How do you begin to

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Speaker 1: create that resolution in real time?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think there are a few things. One is,

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Speaker 2: you talked to you mentioned Rwanda. You're mentioning many of

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Speaker 2: the places where we work that had been already been

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Speaker 2: through like cataclysmic violence, right, Yeah, So in those kinds

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Speaker 2: of cases, you're talking about how do entire populations process

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Speaker 2: that kind of trauma? And not to be overly simplistic,

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Speaker 2: but I think one really critical element that I would

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Speaker 2: share and you know, scientists much smarter than I have

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Speaker 2: proved this, but we see this in our work in

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Speaker 2: communities that the most important experience for somebody to go

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Speaker 2: through in order to feel confident and safe as a

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Speaker 2: member of a community is having the experience of being

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Speaker 2: heard and respected, not the experience of being agreed with,

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Speaker 2: but being heard and respected. And especially if you've been

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Speaker 2: through trauma, if you've been through violence, that experience is

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Speaker 2: absolutely essential. And as a peace building organization, for instance,

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Speaker 2: we would never push somebody to you know, you should

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Speaker 2: really empathize with those people who just destroyed your village

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Speaker 2: or those people who, you know, whatever it might be.

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Speaker 2: One of the worst things you can do is just

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Speaker 2: revictimize people by forcing them, you know, trying to manipulate

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Speaker 2: them somehow to understand the other when they haven't had

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Speaker 2: that experience that they need to go through first are

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Speaker 2: really having their own things. So that's one of the

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Speaker 2: first things that I think one of the second things

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Speaker 2: that you can do is and this is a lot

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Speaker 2: easier said than done, so I just acknowledge that, but

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Speaker 2: I think we all can experience this. We don't have

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Speaker 2: to have been through thankfully catchplasmic violence. We can experience

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Speaker 2: this in an argument with our uber driver or our

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Speaker 2: husband or wife or whatever it might be. Is just

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Speaker 2: practicing and helping to separate the person from the action. Right,

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you story after the Taliban took over. You know,

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Speaker 2: the only Afghan woman leading an international non governmental organization

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan today is our director there. She's an extraordinarily

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Speaker 2: courageous woman, Zuri.

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Speaker 1: And the.

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Speaker 2: Night that the Taliban took over Cobble, she and the

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Speaker 2: rest of our colleagues there were all home. They were scared.

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Speaker 2: They were texting each other on WhatsApp and one of

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Speaker 2: them said, what are we going to do? You know

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Speaker 2: on Monday, would you know? And she said, look, why

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Speaker 2: don't the women stay home and I will go with

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Speaker 2: the men and we'll see if we can get to

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Speaker 2: the office and then we'll take it from there. So

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Speaker 2: she went and she was able to get to the

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Speaker 2: office with some of our colleagues mail colleagues, and directly

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Speaker 2: in front of the office was the same police checkpoint

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Speaker 2: that had been there for years, except now instead of

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Speaker 2: the police, it was a bunch of Taliban soldiers. And

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Speaker 2: she directed our head of programs, a guy named a bar.

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Speaker 2: She said, why don't you go out there and offer

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Speaker 2: them the same thing we used to offer the police,

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Speaker 2: which is you know, it was August, it's really hot,

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Speaker 2: there's no water. Tell them if they need water, there's

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Speaker 2: a little spout on the outside of our office building.

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Speaker 2: They can come and fill up their canteens. Within an hour,

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Speaker 2: there was a heavy knock on the door. All these

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Speaker 2: guys with guns show up, really thankful, thanks for the water.

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Speaker 2: Can we prey in your courtyard because there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of us. The street's really busy and there's nowhere

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Speaker 2: to pray. So that put Zura in a really uncomfortable position.

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Speaker 2: She said, look, we're a community organization. If there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of men with guns at the front of

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Speaker 2: our building like it, they'll scare people off. But I

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Speaker 2: understand your problem. You know, could you do it for

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Speaker 2: no more than a week, but kind of find another

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Speaker 2: solution within the week And they agreed. Every day since

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Speaker 2: then has been that kind of you know, negotiation. I

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Speaker 2: tell that story because you know, to me, Zora is

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Speaker 2: like like several of my colleagues who lead our programs

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Speaker 2: in difficult places. She's like a black belt of how

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Speaker 2: do you build peace just an agree with Taliban policies

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Speaker 2: at all, and yet it's granting that respect for the

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Speaker 2: person even while really disagreeing with what they want to do.

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Speaker 2: And over time it's because of that approach that that

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Speaker 2: team is tripled in size. You know, we support the

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Speaker 2: largest network of local civil society activists. So the second

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Speaker 2: thing you can do, the second thing that you can do,

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Speaker 2: after you know, letting ensuring people feel heard and respected,

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Speaker 2: is try to separate the person from the position, even

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Speaker 2: if you really disagree with the person. You can do

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Speaker 2: that with all the principles that you have. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean you have to descend into assuming ill intent or

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Speaker 2: calling the names or demonizing them. Last thing I would

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Speaker 2: share this just takes more time, but this is kind

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Speaker 2: of a non negotiable pillar to everything that we do.

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Speaker 2: Everywhere we work. The first thing we do is we

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Speaker 2: build what we call multi partial teams. So that's a

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Speaker 2: a lot of syllables multi partial, but basically what it

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Speaker 2: means is people who are not only local the people have,

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Speaker 2: but who draw from across the conflict lines. So if

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Speaker 2: you're working in a society with big racial divisions or

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Speaker 2: big political divisions or ethnic divisions, and your team is

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Speaker 2: not only local but has members but who are from

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Speaker 2: each of those different communities. It takes time to build

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Speaker 2: a team like that, to build a network like that,

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Speaker 2: to build a community like that, right, But once you do,

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Speaker 2: those teams are really powerful. They come up with the

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Speaker 2: most creative ideas. They are the ones that say, you

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Speaker 2: know what, if you use that word, nobody in my

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Speaker 2: community is going to listen to us use that word

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Speaker 2: in my community. Or you know what, if we do

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Speaker 2: something positive in that neighborhood, all doors will open to us.

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Speaker 2: Because that's actually the key everything. And you get that.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can imagine this in any set like

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Speaker 2: you if there's classes between police and youth and you're

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Speaker 2: able to bring you know, build a team of former

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Speaker 2: retired cops and former gang leaders and youth community activists

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Speaker 2: and they form a team, they're going to be unstoppable

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Speaker 2: in many ways. And so those are the three things

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Speaker 2: that sort of share with you that are key. You know,

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Speaker 2: make sure that people, especially those that have been through pain,

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Speaker 2: can have the real and authentic experience of being heard

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Speaker 2: and respected, because they're not going to be able to

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Speaker 2: move forward without that help. Support people to connect with

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Speaker 2: the person, even respect the person, even if they completely

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Speaker 2: oppose their positions, you know. And third, you know it

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Speaker 2: takes time, but try to build those allies, you know,

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Speaker 2: across dividing lines. And the best way to do that

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Speaker 2: is through what we call the common ground approach, which

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Speaker 2: is cooperate on what you can agree with, understand the differences,

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Speaker 2: but act on the commonalities. Understand where you're not going

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Speaker 2: to agree, but cooperate on the areas where you can agree.

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Speaker 2: And that kind of process builds trust over time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's owns so complex and also so simple, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm I think I'm particularly struck by the

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Speaker 1: clarity around saying, Look, don't ask a person who believes

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Speaker 1: themselves to be your enemy or someone who was your

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Speaker 1: victim to immediately empathize with your situation, you know, be

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Speaker 1: present with them, learn a little bit about them, and

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Speaker 1: then you can kind of get into the situations the policy.

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Speaker 1: You know, you wrote an article about the need for

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Speaker 1: colleges to teach students conflict resolution skills in order to

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Speaker 1: make a difference, you know, both in their lives, on

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Speaker 1: their campuses, I would imagine in their workplaces, and it

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Speaker 1: you know, it feels particularly timely given the protests we

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Speaker 1: see at colleges around the country. It I will say,

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Speaker 1: it is so incredibly painful as a you know, an

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Speaker 1: outsider to these two communities in the Middle East, but

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Speaker 1: places that I care for, people that I care for,

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Speaker 1: you know, involved in every aspect or in every position

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Speaker 1: on this pinwheel. And I think so many people feel that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's incredibly painful to watch anti Semitism

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Speaker 1: on the rise, and the dehumanization of the Jewish people.

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Speaker 1: It's horrific to watch the dehumanization and the suffering and

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Speaker 1: the constant bombardment of the Palestinian people. And something that

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Speaker 1: particularly shatters me for both of these groups of people

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Speaker 1: is that I feel like we're seeing this one hundred

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Speaker 1: year cycle of caste put two groups of humans who've

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Speaker 1: consistently been harmed in this spin cycle. And I know

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Speaker 1: I have felt helpless. I know I no matter what

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Speaker 1: I've said, I've been told I've said it the wrong

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Speaker 1: way or done the wrong thing, or somehow taken no

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Speaker 1: sides and both sides and one of the wrong sides,

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Speaker 1: but all of the sides. It is it's paralyzing to

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Speaker 1: try to uplift voices, try to apply pressure where we

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Speaker 1: can continue calling representatives, continue calling for healing for so

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Speaker 1: many people, everyone I know is like, I just don't

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Speaker 1: know what to do anymore. And you're one of the

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Speaker 1: only people I think any of us who is lucky

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Speaker 1: enough to know you knows to call when we feel

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Speaker 1: like we don't know what to do. So understanding how

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Speaker 1: things can change and also understanding places you've changed again,

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Speaker 1: doing the peace building post Rowandan genocide feels incredibly important. Now,

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Speaker 1: how do you look at an active conflict like this

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Speaker 1: and begin to imagine how peace building begins when it's

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Speaker 1: still continuing? You know, how do you know when to go?

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Speaker 1: How long do you wait? How do you know who

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Speaker 1: to call? Are there things you do to stand up

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Speaker 1: for human life in a moment like this that maybe

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Speaker 1: you could share with those of us that feels really stuck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think first it's really important, and thank you

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Speaker 2: for opening this and to give yourself and those who

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Speaker 2: are feeling like you are a little bit of grace.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've been working at this for decades, and

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Speaker 2: in this particular conflict Israeli Passiate conflict stretching back decades

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Speaker 2: in addition to the war going on right now and

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Speaker 2: the devastation and Gaza in particular, and yet, honestly, Sophia,

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Speaker 2: since October seventh, I don't think I've had a really

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Speaker 2: meaningful and constructive conversation about this across dividing lines that

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Speaker 2: was anything less than an hour at least. And this

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Speaker 2: is not the era of our long conversations, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: the most useful conversation sin have been the ones that

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Speaker 2: had happened multiple times, over multiple hours, over weeks, and

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Speaker 2: even because of how directly or vicariously traumatized people are,

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Speaker 2: whether they're on the ground there or they are doom

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Speaker 2: scrolling unable to sleep because of the horror of what

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Speaker 2: they're seeing on their phones every night. So in a

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Speaker 2: world where you know, and I had a number of

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Speaker 2: people who said to me, I feel like I haven't

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Speaker 2: said enough, or I've said too much, or you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not dissuading people from taking really staunch stances. And

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Speaker 2: I hope when people take stances, they take stances that

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Speaker 2: are principled that they apply equally to all people. If

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Speaker 2: they're opposed to the killing of innocent civilians, as I

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Speaker 2: think we all are, I hope they are posting all

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Speaker 2: contexts and in all sense that we value all lies equally,

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Speaker 2: and yet at the same time, you know, for us

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Speaker 2: to answer your question about how we go about this,

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Speaker 2: this happens to be a conflict in which we have

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Speaker 2: a long standing presence on the ground with a uniquely

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Speaker 2: registered both with the Palsanine Authority and Ramala as well

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Speaker 2: as with the Israeli government. And our team is equal

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Speaker 2: parts Palisine and Israeli, and in fact we but just

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Speaker 2: before this war started, we've made the decision to recruit

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Speaker 2: new more senior leaders, both Israeli and Palisini, and we

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Speaker 2: just announced yesterday we recruited the Palestinian director about a

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Speaker 2: month ago, the Israeli director, she read just yesterday to

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Speaker 2: very very powerful, wonderful women leaders, not surprisingly. And so

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Speaker 2: for me, I am really quite privileged that if somebody

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Speaker 2: like you calls me, I'm just just sharing my opinion

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Speaker 2: with you. I'm listening to what our team on the

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Speaker 2: ground feels needs to happen, which sugar shouldn't be said,

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Speaker 2: And that's really much more important to me than anything

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Speaker 2: else to support that kind of multi partial team on

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Speaker 2: the ground, because that's where real peace is going to

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Speaker 2: be built over time. That doesn't mean that there's not

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Speaker 2: a role for people to play here. People can support

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Speaker 2: the work of organizations their cars. We hope that they do.

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Speaker 2: They can raise their voice, as you said you have

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Speaker 2: with congressmen and senators pushing for a serious The main

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Speaker 2: thing that's been lacking for the last twenty years in

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Speaker 2: that conflict is a legitimate political process. And by legitimate

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Speaker 2: and I mean one that actually includes Israelis and Palestinians

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Speaker 2: in it, you know, and people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because people are not their governments, as you said, yeah, earlier.

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Speaker 1: And it's so important to remember that we like as people,

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Speaker 1: we have the capability and often I believe, the desire

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Speaker 1: to live and live peacefully together. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think I don't want to skip past on

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Speaker 2: the college campuses, because that's where you started, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's important to I think these young people should

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Speaker 2: be celebrated for voicing their principles, for taking a lot

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Speaker 2: of risk, taking a lot of heat. I think we

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Speaker 2: need to recognize that the way that oftentimes this is

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Speaker 2: covered in the media, and many protests movements are covered

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Speaker 2: this way where only the most extreme voices are amplified.

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Speaker 2: Those extreme voices exist and absolutely need to be confronted.

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Speaker 2: And yet from you know, you you talk to organizers,

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Speaker 2: including Jewish student organizers in these protests, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: going on there that doesn't fit into the neat buckets

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Speaker 2: of the extreme kind of but you know, picture that's painted.

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Speaker 2: I've talked to many Jewish friends, older Jewish friends and

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Speaker 2: supporters who are struggling because their children are saying things

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Speaker 2: that they find really objectionable. Their children are questioning the

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Speaker 2: legitimacy of the State of Israel to begin with, and

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Speaker 2: they're saying, I have grandparents who died in the Holocaust,

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Speaker 2: like I cannot. I can't even have this conversation with

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Speaker 2: my teenager. You have that conversation going on, you have

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Speaker 2: the conversation going on among people who are really desperate

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Speaker 2: to end the bombing and gaza saying, I don't understand

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Speaker 2: how this can be allowed to go on day in

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Speaker 2: and day out, and day in and day out like that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's so horrific, And.

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Speaker 2: So I think, book I, all wars do end. There

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Speaker 2: is nothing as complicated as this conflict is. There is

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Speaker 2: nothing so complicated about this, honestly, that makes it impervious

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Speaker 2: to finally a resolution and to a lasting peace. But

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Speaker 2: when that piece happens, when it comes, it's going to

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Speaker 2: be people on the ground, Israelis and Palestinians. It was

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Speaker 2: likely going to be people who might make others here

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Speaker 2: in the States really uncomfortable, you know, people who have constituency,

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Speaker 2: and right now the people who have a lot of constituency,

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Speaker 2: both in Israel and Palestine are angry and hurt. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, but it's people agreeing to things that you

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Speaker 2: might be shocked that they'd agree to. And the reason

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Speaker 2: is because they're the ones who are living the consequences

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Speaker 2: of this and as strongly as those of us outside

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Speaker 2: might feel about it, and this conflict resonates more than

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Speaker 2: any other all over the world, and so a lot

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Speaker 2: of people for strongly about it. It is really the

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Speaker 2: support for local peace building and mobilizing international inducements both

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Speaker 2: pressure and incentives to support that kind of peace building.

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Speaker 2: And the hard fact is that sometimes again it's that

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Speaker 2: breakdown to break through things like sometimes the only thing

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Speaker 2: that shakes us out of our stupor you know, these

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Speaker 2: last twenty years of thinking this conflict, maybe this conflict

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Speaker 2: would just sort of go away. I think I mentioned

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Speaker 2: when I met you last time, that I talked to

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Speaker 2: a former Israeli foreign minister the last time I was

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Speaker 2: there who said to me, look, this conflict hasn't been

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Speaker 2: an issue in the last five national elections here, and

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Speaker 2: then the Foreign ministry lead into me said, let me explain.

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Speaker 2: It's not that the candidates who raised it lost. It'said

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Speaker 2: it wasn't even an issue. And we've allowed ourselves to

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Speaker 2: believe that this conflict would just go away or that

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Speaker 2: was somehow contained, and so for then to just be

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Speaker 2: thrown up in the most traumatic way for Israelis, they're

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Speaker 2: very much back on their heels. And on the Palestinian side,

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Speaker 2: you know, we've seen just a a shock and a

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Speaker 2: dismay and a depression over the lack of concerted international

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Speaker 2: pressure to have international rights standards, you know, enforced. So

433
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: that's that's where we are. You're you and I recording

434
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: this at a time where there's news that there there

435
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 2: might be progress towards the cease fire, god willing, you know,

436
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: and the errors that there will have been there will

437
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: eventually be. And all I would ask people who care

438
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: about this conflict to consider, is that again, when peace

439
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: comes it it it needs to come with people on

440
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: the ground supporting and mobilizing for it. And I hope

441
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: you will consider supporting them in it. And if you can't,

442
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: if the only thing you can do is see the

443
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 2: pain on one side and advocate for that one side,

444
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: you're probably not helping us get somewhere that's going to

445
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 2: be better for all because there's not going to be

446
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 2: a one side wins this solution.

447
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: Well, and that's that's a zero sum game, and that's

448
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: just not what humanity's meant for. You know, the reality

449
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: is that people are suffering. It's absolutely devastating, and to

450
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: see harm done in this way is I mean, it's

451
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: it's unconscionable. And I really hope you know, I appreciate

452
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: that you are able to speak about such emotional things

453
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: with pragmatism, because it is a requirement for solutions and

454
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: to explain that you know, this will happen, this will resolve,

455
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: there are options. I think what's hard, as you know,

456
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: an emotional soul sitting across from you today, is that

457
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: my brain immediately says, yeah, but was this necessary? Why

458
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: did all these people have to die in vain? Why

459
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: are people so awful to each other? How could this

460
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 1: be allowed? How could a government be allowed to do this?

461
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: How like the questions fall out and what I've had

462
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: to learn, and in studying the kind of work that

463
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: you all do at search for Common Ground, I've really

464
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: had to learn that that that is my own trauma,

465
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: that is my own pain, that is my own reaction

466
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: to the horror that I'm seeing, and that's what makes

467
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: me human. But that doesn't necessarily always have a place

468
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: in a conversation or on the internet, you know. And

469
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: I think that your advice a to give us, for

470
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: all of us, to give ourselves grace, because clearly, if

471
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: all the world leaders don't have the answer, how are

472
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: we supposed to and be? I think it's really important

473
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: for me and probably important for our friends at home,

474
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: to remind myself when you talk about how solutions have

475
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: to come locally, you know, it will be Palestinians and

476
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: Israelis on the ground who piece build, who bridge build.

477
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: That what we should really be doing, if we care

478
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: about the conflict, is raising their voices up, giving them

479
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: our platforms. We don't always need to add our two

480
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: cents to the cacophony. That's already too noisy.

481
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, and let me be really clear, I am

482
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: not advocating against that humanity that you just shared. I

483
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: think it's beautiful. I think it's necessary. I think one

484
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: of the reasons that I believe so much in local

485
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: sort of multi partial teams is because that collective humanity

486
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: from across the dividing lines, from community members who bring

487
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: all of the passion because they're living it, their families

488
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: are the ones that are under threat. You know, they've

489
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: been through this. That collective humanity is indominable, you know,

490
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: once it's really supported and mobilized. And I don't want

491
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: to be pollyannish about this. Where we are right now

492
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: with this war still ongoing, there's not a lot of

493
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: appetite for bridge building whatever. There's just the understanding that

494
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: in every war and every conflict out history, there's a

495
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: way that it's come to an end, and it has

496
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: been you know, anything really sustainable piece without the people

497
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: on the ground making it happen across the dividing line.

498
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: Right. We'll be back in just a minute after a

499
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: few words from our favorite sponsors. When you zoom out

500
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: and you think about the work you're doing, whether it

501
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: be on the conflict we're all watching happen halfway around

502
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: the world, or you know, the kind of tension that's building,

503
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: as you said in our backsliding democracy here at home,

504
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: I mean, which resulted in you know, wild violence and

505
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: all of the things. How how do you mobilize at

506
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: common ground? Who begins? How do the teams work? How

507
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: can we support you? You know where? Tell us about

508
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: the hopeful part and how we can get involved.

509
00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: Well, look, you know the first group of Israeli in

510
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: Palestinians that we've been working with for years that wanted

511
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: to reconnect after October seventh and after the war began.

512
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: We're an extraordinarily powerful group of women leaders both in

513
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: Israel and Palestine. This is oftentimes the case, and so

514
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: that gave me a lot of hope, and we have

515
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 2: been building out those networks, both Palestini and Israeli. And

516
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: one of the things that we see in many of

517
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: the violent conflicts around the world is that when women

518
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: I mean it's obvious, but when women are part of

519
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: the decision making and part of the processes, you are

520
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: more likely to get a peace agreement, and you're more

521
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: likely to get a peace agreement that lasts. It's just

522
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: all the research shows it. So we're seeing that in

523
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: Israel and Palestine, and it's exciting. I don't want to

524
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: pretend it's going to make a difference tomorrow given what's happening,

525
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: but it is building extraordinary momentum in Pennsylvania. After the

526
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: assassination attempt, we have team in Pennsylvania. They mobilize the

527
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: network of faith leaders, business leaders, and veterans which we've

528
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: been building with local partners across partisan lines for months

529
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: out of an explicit concern that there be political violence.

530
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: And we were you know, the night that had happened.

531
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: It happened on a Saturday. The things that were shared

532
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: by that team then made their way into sermons in

533
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: churches in much of Pennsylvania the next day. The mobile.

534
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: There's a poll worker in Pennsylvania, volunteer poll worker who

535
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: on our own spent forty hours mobilizing to try to

536
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: ensure that she could get bipartisan you know, volunteers at

537
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: the polls. You know, come elections. But these stories aren't

538
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: being told. But every terrible but first they're always there,

539
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: and then every terrible thing that happened happens, more of

540
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: them come out of the woodwork, and what we need

541
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: do was welcome them and recognize. And so the last

542
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: thing that I would share is I'd really encourage your

543
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: followers definitely support the work of Search for Common Ground.

544
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: You know, monthly contributions really helped support that kind of

545
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: the women's leadership in Israel and palacetign, the grassroots leadership

546
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: and statewide leadership here in the state. Try to make

547
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: a difference in your own community. There's a pieces possible

548
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: pledge that we have on our website at Search for

549
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: Common Ground. There's a shop, a fun way you can

550
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: support the organization, the Love Anyway Shop. If you go

551
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: to Love Anyway dot com and you want to do

552
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: your shopping for friends, what you'll see there, much of

553
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: it has been made by people in conflict settings, and

554
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: the proceeds go to people who are are making that difference.

555
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: And if you if you can bring yourself to do it,

556
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: see if you can reach out across the dividing lines yourself.

557
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you have to agree with somebody's positions.

558
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: It just means that you're willing to reach out with

559
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: genuine curiosity and care respect for them as a person.

560
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: Even if you disagree with their point of view and

561
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: try to initiate some of those some of those conversations.

562
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: So there are a number of things that people can do.

563
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: There's more information for a ways people can connect at

564
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: search for common ground dot org.

565
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: Search forcommon ground dot org is the r L I.

566
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: I know we're coming up on time for you. Thank

567
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: you for carving some out for us here. I just

568
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: want to ask you before you go, as you look

569
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: at the year ahead, what feels like your work in progress?

570
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: Well, we are working on you know. I had the

571
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: privilege of having conversations with some of my real heroic leaders,

572
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: former President of Obama and former Prime Minister at our

573
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: Durn just into our Durn of New Zealand, you know

574
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: who became prime minister at the age of thirty seven.

575
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: And I was sort of struck recently the degree to

576
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:34,719
Speaker 2: which they spoke, you know, reflectively about wishing that they

577
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: could have done more even to unite their respective countries.

578
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: And this, combined with the increasing polarization, has made us

579
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: sort of think more and more that I think for

580
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: the time being, maybe the era of the unifying individual

581
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,239
Speaker 2: leaders is gone. It's just very fun. It's just so

582
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: easy to divide people. It's so easy with our platforms

583
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: and social media tools to turn people against each other.

584
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: And so what we really believe in is collective leadership.

585
00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: And one of things that's really hard to undercut is

586
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: and you have people coming together across partisan lines, across

587
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: Israeli Palestinian lines, or across Republican Democrat lines, across Hu

588
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: Tuo tootsi lines. And that's the kind of leadership that

589
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: can be really rock solid and can really take us

590
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: forward in an era of polarization. And so we are

591
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: looking at developing a sort of leadership training programs, even

592
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: sort of like an academy one day's what I'd like

593
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: to have to support people in developing that kind of

594
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 2: capacity for collective leadership. And if we get there in

595
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, from twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five,

596
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: I think we can really be seating a lot of

597
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: that kind of powerful, multi partial, peace building leadership here

598
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: in the States and around the world.

599
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: Well, well what a goal. I think I speak for

600
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: everyone listening when I say, count me and us in,

601
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: please teach us all of the things, and thank you

602
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: so much for coming

603
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 2: Today, Sophia, Thank you, Thank care