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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back ty Skipson as an author, counselor speaker leader

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Speaker 2: in the personal development field. She has been recognized by

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Speaker 2: Psychology Today, Times, Business News, and many other outlets for

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Speaker 2: her cutting edge research on the subconscious mind and personal transformation.

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Speaker 2: One of her books is called Learning Love Best, The

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Speaker 2: Real Best Best Relationships of your life using integrated attachment theory.

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Speaker 2: Tyas Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Hi, George, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: How did you get involved in this field?

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Speaker 3: I got involved in this field because I myself had

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Speaker 3: an insecure attachment style, and so I grew up in

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Speaker 3: a household where there was a lot of chaos and essentially,

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Speaker 3: as a result of that, started digging into how to

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Speaker 3: do relationships in a better way at a pretty young age.

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Speaker 3: And when I started seeing a whole bunch of transformation

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Speaker 3: within myself, was really excited to share it with many

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Speaker 3: other people.

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Speaker 2: There are some areas I never knew existed, and still

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Speaker 2: I did some homework with your work, like attachment theory.

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Speaker 2: I never even knew what that was.

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Speaker 4: And it's such a huge concept.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the things that affects our relationships more

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Speaker 3: than pretty much anything else. So it's pretty exciting to

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Speaker 3: dig into.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about that. What is it? Give us that definition?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, attachment theories essentially the study of how our

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Speaker 3: conditioning in childhood with our parents or caregivers affects our

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Speaker 3: adult relationships. So we essentially go through life in our

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Speaker 3: early childhood and we learn, based on all of the

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Speaker 3: repeated patterns that we're exposed to, what to expect in relationships,

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Speaker 3: how to give love in relationships, how to receive love,

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Speaker 3: what our needs are, how to communicate, and there's so

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Speaker 3: many of these components, but not everybody learns things in

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Speaker 3: the same way. So if we end up having a

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Speaker 3: different attachment style than somebody else, can cause a lot

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Speaker 3: of challenges. And I almost equate it to if you're

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Speaker 3: playing a board game with somebody and you sit down

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Speaker 3: and let's say, George, you have the rules for scrabble

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Speaker 3: and I have the rules for Monopoly. Even if we

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Speaker 3: want to have a really fun time playing the board game,

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Speaker 3: there's just going to be confusion and unnecessary challenges because

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Speaker 3: we have different rules. And really, if you think about

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Speaker 3: it that way, your attachment style is the subconscious set

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Speaker 3: of rules that you learn about how to connect and

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Speaker 3: be in relationship with anybody else.

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Speaker 2: Can you believe, as I do, that your development as

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Speaker 2: a child ends up being near your development as an adult,

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Speaker 2: Isn't it?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: And I think it's really important to note that everything

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Speaker 3: is conditioning. So we know from a neuroscience perspective that

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Speaker 3: your subconscious mind, which is really your conditioned or habituated self,

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Speaker 3: it can be reconditioned at any point in time if

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Speaker 3: we get enough repeated exposure to a new way of being,

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Speaker 3: a new form of communit, medication, or a new habit

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Speaker 3: can recondition our subconscious. But where we get the vast

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Speaker 3: majority of our subconscious habits and patterns is literally from

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Speaker 3: our childhood, and so that really forms the lens that

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Speaker 3: we see the world through. So while we can have

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Speaker 3: things that recondition us throughout life in small ways, the

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Speaker 3: majority of who we are definitely is majorly influenced by

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Speaker 3: our childhood.

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Speaker 2: Taysh What creates the serial killer? What happens?

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Speaker 4: It's a great question.

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Speaker 3: I mean, really, when you're looking at serial killers, they

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Speaker 3: tend to fall into something called the dark tetrad. So

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Speaker 3: the dark tech trat are really these subclinical personality traits,

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Speaker 3: and they're not always quite strong enough to be observed

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Speaker 3: as an actual disorder, although we can definitely have as

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Speaker 3: somebody who's got antisocial personality disorder right is a psychopath

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Speaker 3: or sociopath. We can definitely see these types of things,

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Speaker 3: but there's often also overlap with people who may have narcisses,

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Speaker 3: stick qualities, Machabelian qualities, and as a result, will see

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Speaker 3: individuals from their conditioning from their early childhood or upbringing

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Speaker 3: essentially end up in situations where because of trauma or

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Speaker 3: because of genetic predisposition, you'll see somebody go into different

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Speaker 3: patterns where maybe they're seeking power, or they're grandiose and

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Speaker 3: they have entitlement, or they lack empathy, or they really

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Speaker 3: have no compassion for somebody and they're willing to really

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Speaker 3: stop at no ends to get to those means, like

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Speaker 3: they really want whatever the outcome is. So if they're

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Speaker 3: in a fit of rage, if they don't know how

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Speaker 3: to regulate themselves, then they may derive some sort of

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Speaker 3: power or pleasure even from that particular way of living.

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Speaker 3: And there's something called sadism, which is really a personality

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Speaker 3: trait characterized by the enjoyment of inflicting pain and humiliation

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Speaker 3: and suffering. And of course we could definitely see a

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Speaker 3: serial killer be highly like to have that quality or

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Speaker 3: trade as.

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Speaker 2: Well somebody like Ted Bundy who screwed him up his parents.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you can make an argument that there's

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Speaker 3: some sort of genetic predisposition in various ways. But really

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Speaker 3: I'm big on conditioning, and if somebody goes through enough

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Speaker 3: childhood trauma, then what essentially happens is we adapt. Right, So,

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Speaker 3: if somebody goes through a whole bunch of trauma growing up,

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Speaker 3: maybe they don't get you know, a sense of being

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Speaker 3: seen or heard or important, maybe they get bullied, maybe

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Speaker 3: there's you know, actual violence in their home or their

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Speaker 3: childhood or upbringing. Well that's the conditioning that that person

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Speaker 3: then learns, and so you're very likely to see that

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Speaker 3: individual as an adult be like, Okay, this is my

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Speaker 3: subconscious comfort zone, this is what I know. But also

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Speaker 3: we tend to really want to compensate for the things

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Speaker 3: that we go through in childhood. So you may see

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Speaker 3: as an example that Ted Bundy perhaps is going, well,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I actually want to feel power over

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Speaker 3: others because I felt so powerless as a child wild

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Speaker 3: or I want to see other people suffer because I

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Speaker 3: felt like I suffered so much and I want to

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Speaker 3: have the upper hand this time.

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Speaker 4: And so if there's a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of trauma, then truly that can cause somebody to adapt

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Speaker 3: by trying to be the perpetrator instead of the victim.

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Speaker 2: At what moment in their life do they flip? Do

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Speaker 2: they switch? Do they be gilling that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question.

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Speaker 3: A lot of research shows us it's really around that

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Speaker 3: individuation stage when somebody starts developing their own sense of self.

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Speaker 3: So going into teenage years, that's when you're going to

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Speaker 3: start to see a lot of.

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Speaker 4: These symptoms take shape.

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Speaker 3: But you know, as an example, a lot of these

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Speaker 3: things start building early roots at a young age. And

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Speaker 3: as an example, I had a client once when I

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Speaker 3: was running my private practice back in the day, and

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Speaker 3: he had an experience where he saw his sister get

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Speaker 3: run over by a car when he was five or

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Speaker 3: six years old, and you know, he as an adult

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Speaker 3: had some really extreme patterns of behavior. We could definitely

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Speaker 3: say they existed within that dark tetrat of traits. Narcissism, macavalianism, psychopathy,

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Speaker 3: even sadism, and you can see how, yes, he didn't

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Speaker 3: start expressing those things until he was a teenager, and

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Speaker 3: those things weren't as obvious, but there were definitely a

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Speaker 3: series of seats that planted, and that seemed to be

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Speaker 3: one of the big first ones. And so it can

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Speaker 3: really be these extreme experiences somebody is exposed to that

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Speaker 3: caused somebody to feel powerless or confused, and then of

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Speaker 3: course they're going to go out of their way to

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Speaker 3: try to adapt or compensate for that in various ways

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Speaker 3: as an adult.

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Speaker 2: My granddaughter, whom my help raises a little baby girl,

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Speaker 2: grew up, got married, and has three kids of her own.

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Speaker 2: She's made me a great grandfather, she's made my mother

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Speaker 2: a great great grandmother. But she's one of the most

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Speaker 2: loving individuals I've ever known. And these kids are getting

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Speaker 2: all of that love. How are they going to turn out?

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're so much more likely to turn out

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Speaker 3: in a really beautiful way. And kids, when they are born,

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Speaker 3: they are seeking really specific things. They're wired for, really

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Speaker 3: specific things that will make them securely attached. So some

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Speaker 3: of those specific things are do you have a parent

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Speaker 3: who when the child is distressed, notices those cues is

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Speaker 3: attuned to the child is going to go towards them

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Speaker 3: and try to help the child regulate, and if a

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Speaker 3: child gets a tremendous amount of love and security and safety.

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Speaker 3: Something that's really interesting is that our subconscious mind, which

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Speaker 3: is really our habituated self, our pattern self, it's responsible

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Speaker 3: for ninety five to ninety seven percent of all of

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Speaker 3: our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions, and our actions or

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Speaker 3: choices on a daily basis. And so we have a

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Speaker 3: lot of individuals who who think, oh, no, we're our

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Speaker 3: conscious mind. Whatever we choose is is how we're going

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Speaker 3: to show up. You know, if we say we're going

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Speaker 3: to break a habit or change how we show up,

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Speaker 3: we're just going to follow through. But I mean, you

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Speaker 3: see all over society that that's simply not the case.

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Speaker 3: We've all seen people who are like, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: quit eating chocolate or I'm going to go to the

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Speaker 3: gym every day and set an intention from their conscious

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Speaker 3: level of mind, but don't necessarily follow through on an

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Speaker 3: ongoing basis because it's not patterned in, it's not conditioned

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Speaker 3: in to become a habit or a part of who

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Speaker 3: they are. And so if you have somebody who grows

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Speaker 3: up in this super healthy household, so much of that

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Speaker 3: ninety five to ninety seven percent of them, the part

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Speaker 3: of them that's actually really running the show, is going

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Speaker 3: to show up with really healthy secure patterns. Also be

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Speaker 3: warm and loving, also be able to communicate openly, feel

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Speaker 3: safe to rely on other people, allow people to rely

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Speaker 3: on them, and all of those things will go a

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Speaker 3: really long way.

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Speaker 2: Tys Gibson with us. Tell us about your first name.

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Speaker 2: That's different.

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Speaker 3: My first name I was actually named after an opera

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Speaker 3: called Meditation to Tys by Jules Massonet. So my parents

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Speaker 3: names are Melanie and Peter, and my name is Tyss

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Speaker 3: and my sister's name is Shorland. Unique names they came

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Speaker 3: up with.

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Speaker 2: Your last book that I have is called Learning Love.

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Speaker 2: Is that it?

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Speaker 4: Yes? I have two books.

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Speaker 3: So what it's called the Attachment Theory Guide and the

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Speaker 3: most recently Learning Love and Learning Love is really about

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Speaker 3: how all of our condition and growing up has such

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Speaker 3: a huge impact on the way we tend to navigate

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Speaker 3: relationships as adults.

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Speaker 2: And you talk about four special attachment styles. What are they?

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Speaker 3: Yes, So there are four attachment styles I think it's

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Speaker 3: really important to know that every person has an attachment style,

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Speaker 3: and the first one is the securely attached style. So

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Speaker 3: when you said you know your family is going to

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Speaker 3: end up having this this generation of probably really healthy

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Speaker 3: kids because of the way that your granddaughter operates, you know,

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Speaker 3: generally what you're going to see is individuals are more

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Speaker 3: likely to be securely attached. So securely attached kids grow

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Speaker 3: up with what we just talked about, a lot of

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Speaker 3: that warmth, that care, that attonment, and so they learn

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Speaker 3: all these things as at time, like I can rely

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Speaker 3: on people, I can let my guard down, I can connect.

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Speaker 3: And interestingly, about fifty percent of the population is securely attached,

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Speaker 3: and it's interesting to me because that tends to mirror

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Speaker 3: the divorce rate that we see in North America around

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Speaker 3: fifty percent. And the other fifty percent of the population

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Speaker 3: is insecurely attached. And that consists of three insecure styles.

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Speaker 3: So one, and I think everybody listening can probably think

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Speaker 3: of somebody in their life that they'll hear in this,

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Speaker 3: or maybe they'll hear themselves in this one is the

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Speaker 3: anxious attachment style. So the anxious attachment style usually grows

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Speaker 3: up in a home where there's a lot of love,

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Speaker 3: but it's really inconsistent. So it could be that there's parents,

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Speaker 3: but they're working all the time, they're not always available,

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Speaker 3: and so this child grows up in this household having

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Speaker 3: love and connection, but feeling like it's always gone, it's

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Speaker 3: always taken away, and so they become really preoccupied with

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Speaker 3: not being abandoned, not having love taken away, And as adults,

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Speaker 3: they end up being very needy or clingy or anxious

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Speaker 3: in relationships to hold on very very tightly to people,

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Speaker 3: but sometimes so tight that they accidentally push people away

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Speaker 3: because they're pushing for commitment too fast, or they're trying

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Speaker 3: to get too close too soon, or you know, they're

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Speaker 3: so attached that it can feel engulfing to other people.

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Speaker 3: And so that's one of the three attachment styles. It's insecure.

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Speaker 3: At the other end of the continuum, we have a

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Speaker 3: dismissive avoidant attachment style. Dismissive avoidance generally end up with

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Speaker 3: a lot of childhood emotional neglect, so they usually don't

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Speaker 3: really have a lot of connection growing up. Parents are

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Speaker 3: maybe unavailable or really busy all the time, and this

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Speaker 3: child grows up wanting that attunement, wanting that connection and closeness,

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Speaker 3: yearning for it, but just feeling like it's constantly rejected.

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Speaker 3: And dismissive avoidance often have like a pretty healthy, stable

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Speaker 3: childhood from you know, a security standpoint, foods on the table,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're at school on time, They've got healthy

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Speaker 3: habits in the home. But often the parents are just

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Speaker 3: not emotionally a bit well. They're not checked in with

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Speaker 3: the kids, they're not able to talk about emotions, and

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Speaker 3: so this individual grows up as an adult and is

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Speaker 3: really afraid of too much closeness because when they had

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Speaker 3: a lot of vulnerability and yearned for that closeness as

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Speaker 3: a child, it felt like it was constant getting rejected.

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Speaker 3: So dismissive avoidance end up being partners in relationships as

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Speaker 3: adults who are constantly keeping people at arm's length, constantly

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Speaker 3: trying to make sure that nobody gets too close, and

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Speaker 3: they're often quick to leave relationships if somebody's pushing too soon,

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Speaker 3: or they're often quick to leave relationships as soon as

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Speaker 3: they think things are too real, the feelings are too strong,

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Speaker 3: because they're so afraid of that commitment and so afraid

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Speaker 3: of being engulfed in that closeness but not having their

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Speaker 3: needs met again. And then the last but not least,

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Speaker 3: there's a fearful avoidant attachment style. And the fearful avoidant

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Speaker 3: usually grows up with a lot of chaos or trauma.

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Speaker 3: So this could be a parent's an alcoholic or an

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Speaker 3: active addiction.

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Speaker 4: This could be a parent is perhaps.

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Speaker 3: Has narcissistic personality disorder or of mental health issue, and

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Speaker 3: so this child grows up never knowing what they're going

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Speaker 3: to get. Sometimes the parent's nice and loving, sometimes the

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Speaker 3: parent's terrifying and cruel, and so basically this individual yearns

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Speaker 3: for love and connection but is really scared of it

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Speaker 3: at the same time. And so as an adult they

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Speaker 3: end up wanting love, wanting closeness, and trying to engage

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Speaker 3: in deep connection with others. But then as soon as

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Speaker 3: there is depth, they tend to really push away as well,

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Speaker 3: similar to the dismissible avoidance.

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Speaker 4: So they almost have both sides.

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Speaker 3: Well, they'll be anxious and they'll be avoidant, and they're

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Speaker 3: really that hot and cold partner in relationships, and they

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Speaker 3: fear betrayal. They have a hard time trusting people. They

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Speaker 3: tend to constantly read between the lines and look for

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Speaker 3: red flags on anything and everything. They tend to be

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Speaker 3: really hyper vigilant and good at catching lies or incongruencies.

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Speaker 4: But they also tend to be the.

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Speaker 3: Roller coaster partner in relationships with lots of ups and downs.

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Speaker 2: I love these four attachments. Three of them don't shan

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Speaker 2: very good.

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Speaker 3: Three of them can be very tricky to be And

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Speaker 3: you know, as I said, it sort of mirrors the

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Speaker 3: divorce rate, so we can see that. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: a really strong impact of your attachment style on your relationships,

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Speaker 3: on the ability for your relationships to last. And interestingly,

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Speaker 3: the secure individuals. Securely attached people not only report having

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Speaker 3: the longest relationships, which to me isn't that strong of

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Speaker 3: a statistic standing alone, because it's like, you could have

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Speaker 3: a long relationship, but you could be miserable. But they

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Speaker 3: actually also report being fulfilled in their relationships. And that's

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Speaker 3: because they have healthy conditioning. They learn I can lean

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Speaker 3: on people, they can lean on me, will communicate through conflict,

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Speaker 3: will solve conflict when it happens. We can be vulnerable

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Speaker 3: with each other. We can share in our world with

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Speaker 3: one another, and we can build together. We can go

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Speaker 3: create in the world with each other and because they

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Speaker 3: have such healthy conditioning, relationships are more fulfilling. But if

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Speaker 3: instead you're constantly feeling like nobody's going to abandon you,

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Speaker 3: like the anxious attachment style, and you're always in fear

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Speaker 3: of that, or if you're constantly afraid that you're going

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Speaker 3: to be trapped or engulfed, like the dismissive avoidance, or

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Speaker 3: you want love but you can never trust it and

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Speaker 3: so you pinball back and forth like the fearful avoidant.

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Speaker 3: All of those attachment patterns are very draining and they're

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Speaker 3: really tough on people experiencing them.

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Speaker 2: What percent of the people are securely attached?

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Speaker 3: Roughly fifty percent, that's so that's pretty high. It's pretty high.

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Speaker 3: There's some more recent research it looks like that's actually

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Speaker 3: downward trending closer to forty. But historically for generations it's

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Speaker 3: been about fifty. And and that recent cutting edge research

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Speaker 3: isn't it's more through you know, long standing polling, so

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Speaker 3: not as in depth research.

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Speaker 2: I know the other fifty percent that's split up with

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Speaker 2: those three other sections.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's about twenty percent anxious, so that anxious, you know,

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Speaker 3: the fear of abandonment, attachment style than another twenty percent

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Speaker 3: dis in missive avoidant, so constantly wanting that distance, and

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Speaker 3: interestingly enough, those two often end up in relationships together.

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Speaker 3: It's what we call the anxious avoidant trap, where one

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Speaker 3: person's constantly trying to connect and get closer, the other

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Speaker 3: person's constantly trying to push the other person away. And

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Speaker 3: then the fearful avoidant is that remaining ten or so percent.

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Speaker 2: How many people have this dark tetra trait?

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Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness, the dark tetrad is thought to be

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Speaker 3: actually ten percent, somewhere between seven to ten percent, which.

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Speaker 2: And it's ten percent too high, right, It is.

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Speaker 3: Ten percent too high, I mean, especially because the dark tetrad.

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Speaker 3: You know, individuals with an insecure attachment style, they will

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Speaker 3: make mistakes in relationships. They'll push people away, or they'll

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Speaker 3: cling too much, or they'll send mixed signals.

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Speaker 4: But they're not as you know.

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Speaker 3: I often use this quote or this saying that trauma

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Speaker 3: is contagious. And it's not contagious obviously George in Aderam

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Speaker 3: theory way, but it's contagious in the fact that whenever

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Speaker 3: we're in proximity to somebody who's highly traumatized, because our

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Speaker 3: subconscious is constantly being reconditioned. If we're if we live,

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Speaker 3: for example, with somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder, you

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Speaker 3: can bet that you're going to end up taking on

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Speaker 3: some of that trauma because just by proximity, by being

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Speaker 3: exposed repetitively to these types of really traumatic behaviors from

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Speaker 3: the narcissist. It's repetition and emotion that really conditioned.

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