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Speaker 1: He's back. Ed Newcomber a special agent with the US

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Speaker 1: Vision Wildlife Service. Y'all know he's been over twenty years there.

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Speaker 1: He's got his own podcast, Nature's Secret Service. Several of

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Speaker 1: y'all know about that. Y'all check that out. It is

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Speaker 1: quite frankly phenomenal. But we have brought him back because

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Speaker 1: he has got a case that you are not gonna believe.

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Speaker 1: And what's important about this case to me, if you

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Speaker 1: can work in this case, you can work any homicide

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Speaker 1: out there. So, Ed Newcomber, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: coming back.

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Speaker 2: Well, Mac, thanks for having me. I love your show

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Speaker 2: and I love being on your show. It was such

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Speaker 2: a great time last time I had to accept are

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Speaker 2: you kidding?

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Speaker 1: And let me tell y'all, anybody coming to Crime Con,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to see him live and in person.

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Speaker 1: We are going to be on the main stage for

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Speaker 1: the Creator's Row. We are going to be live at

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Speaker 1: Crime Con doing a Zone seven in person, and Ed's

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Speaker 1: going to be right there and you will not believe

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Speaker 1: the case we're going to cover there in person. And

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Speaker 1: it's the first time Wildlife Crimes will be at Crime Con.

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Speaker 1: So comes all, right, Ed, this case involves poison, and

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you those are difficult cases, and

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Speaker 1: they're difficult to me because almost anybody can obtain poison.

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Speaker 1: It's sub level. It's not like a gunshot where people

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Speaker 1: can hear it. It's not like arson where people can

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Speaker 1: smell it. I mean, this is something that the killer

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Speaker 1: they don't even have to be there when the death occurs.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're absolutely right. I never really thought of

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Speaker 2: it that way. But poison is a very sneaky weapon, right.

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Speaker 1: It is so sneaky. I mean, you can be in

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Speaker 1: another state, you can have a solid alibi, theres nowhere

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Speaker 1: near there, you have time to get away, there won't

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Speaker 1: be any eyewitness or ear witness, and it wouldn't matter

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Speaker 1: anyway you're not there exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of the perfect weapon for a criminal to

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Speaker 2: use because you know, like you just said, they can

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Speaker 2: actually take the time to put distance between themselves and

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Speaker 2: the victim and the crime scene, which you know is

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Speaker 2: pretty important if you're trying to evade capture. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: mac poisoning is a pretty common method for people to

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Speaker 2: commit wildlife crime. Is particularly if they're trying to kill

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Speaker 2: wild animals for some reason.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what took y'all to Idaho. So why don't

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Speaker 1: you tell us about February two thousand and four. We're

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Speaker 1: out there trying to reintroduce wolves, so we're trying to

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Speaker 1: build this population back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, it might be

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Speaker 2: really helpful to you and your listeners if we just

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Speaker 2: kind of back up just a little bit and I

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Speaker 2: tell you a little bit about the situation with wolves

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Speaker 2: in the Western United States, particularly around that time in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and four, going if we go way back,

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Speaker 2: let's go back to nineteen twenty six, that's the year.

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Speaker 2: I know, we're going way back.

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Speaker 1: That is hilarious. I thought you were going to say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, two thousand and one. No, we're going back,

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Speaker 1: y'all and eight play yeas.

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Speaker 2: Way back, way back. Okay, Yeah, So let's go back

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Speaker 2: to nineteen twenty six in Yellowstone National Park. Remember, Yellowstone

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Speaker 2: was like the first national park in the world. It's

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Speaker 2: often considered America's greatest idea. The last wolf was killed

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Speaker 2: in Yellowstone National Park in nineteen twenty six, and that's

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Speaker 2: what's called extirpating a species, which means they're not necessarily extinct.

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Speaker 2: Wherever around the world, but they no longer exist in

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Speaker 2: the ecosystem where they used to so pretty much by

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty six, the United States had been well on

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Speaker 2: its way to extirpating or killing all of the wolves

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Speaker 2: that they could in the United States, and by that

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Speaker 2: time there's just a small pocket of wild wolves living

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Speaker 2: in the Great Lakes area. They're gone basically from the

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Speaker 2: Rocky Mountains now. That turned out to be kind of

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Speaker 2: an environmental disaster because it allowed elk and deer populations

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Speaker 2: to explode, which had all these cascading effects on the environment.

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Speaker 2: And as early as nineteen forties, people started to talk

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Speaker 2: about maybe we should bring wolves back to fix kind

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Speaker 2: of this imbalance. That didn't happen until nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 2: when the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the National

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Speaker 2: Park Service finally decided we're going to bring wolves back

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Speaker 2: to Yellowstone and certain parts of Montana. And that effort

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Speaker 2: really started in nineteen ninety five and a number of

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Speaker 2: wolves were brought down from Canada. They were captured, and

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Speaker 2: they were released in the park and they started to

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Speaker 2: do phenomenally well. A lot of deer, a lot of

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Speaker 2: elk were there for them. They were specialists in killing

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Speaker 2: deer and elk, and it started to put the ecosystem

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Speaker 2: back into balance unfortunately, well fortunately for the wolves, but

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Speaker 2: also unfortunately for the wolves. As they prospered, they moved

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Speaker 2: their packs, started to move outside the park and to

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Speaker 2: populate their natural, previous, historical environment. And unfortunately, wolves get

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Speaker 2: a bad rap and it's not warranted, it's not earned,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of hunters and ranchers just hate them

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Speaker 2: and they try to Some of those guys are willing

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Speaker 2: to break the law and they'll try to kill them

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Speaker 2: at every opportunity. Because wolves had been extirpated, when they

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Speaker 2: were re released, they were automatically listed as threatened under

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Speaker 2: the Endangered Species Act, which gave them protection. And as

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Speaker 2: we know from my last appearance on the show, violations

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Speaker 2: of the Endangered Species Act are a criminal violation, and

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Speaker 2: that law is enforced by special agents of the US

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Speaker 2: Fish and Wildlife Service. So there's a little history, Mac,

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Speaker 2: but that kind of brings us up to this case

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Speaker 2: that happened in February of two thousand and four. It

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Speaker 2: turned out to be an amazing, an amazing investigation done

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Speaker 2: by a special agent with the US Fish and Wildlife

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Speaker 2: service named Scott Brigonier. And the reason I know so

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Speaker 2: much about this case is because when I heard about it,

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Speaker 2: I was an agent in Los Angeles. I didn't do

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Speaker 2: wolf cases. You know, we don't have wolves down there.

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Speaker 2: But I was so fascinated by the high quality work

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Speaker 2: that this agent and Idaho State Gay Morton's did. It

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Speaker 2: was an amazing crime scene investigation. It involved forensics, it

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Speaker 2: involved great detective work. And ultimately, as I tell you

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Speaker 2: this story, I think you're just going to be kind

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Speaker 2: of blown away. You want me to just jump in now.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I was so captivated. I'm sorry I

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Speaker 1: was listening and not talking.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know if you wanted a chance to like

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Speaker 2: Pepper in questions, yes.

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Speaker 1: Go on. I was just sitting there literally keep it in,

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Speaker 1: because that's honestly what was happening. I was sitting there

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Speaker 1: so captivated. Is like, oh my lord, what is going

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Speaker 1: to happen? Because even though I know the facts of

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Speaker 1: the case. So let's just go right back. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: want you to just jump right in.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So let me set the scene for you. It's

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Speaker 2: now February twentieth, two thousand and four. We're almost ten

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Speaker 2: years into wolfree introduction. They're doing great. They have expanded

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Speaker 2: their territory. They've moved out into Idaho. And there's an

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Speaker 2: area in Idaho known as the Wagonhammer Drainage and it's

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Speaker 2: a popular place for people to go hiking and walk

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Speaker 2: their dogs and things like that. So on February twentieth,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and four, a local resident in Idaho is

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Speaker 2: out walking her dog and the dog finds a meatball.

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Speaker 2: We all know what a dog will do if it

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Speaker 2: finds a meatball, It'll gulp it down before you can

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Speaker 2: do anything about yu. Yeah, well that's what happened, and

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Speaker 2: within a few minutes, the dog goes into convulsions, starts

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Speaker 2: foaming at the mouth, drops over, you know. Panicues, and

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Speaker 2: the woman rushes her dog to the veterinarian, only to

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Speaker 2: learn that the dog's been poisoned. So how now does

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Speaker 2: a US Fish and Wildlife Service agent get involved? Well,

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Speaker 2: it turns out that the Wagonhammer Drainage that area is

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Speaker 2: known to be wolf habitat. There are wolves there, and

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Speaker 2: those wolves are protected by the Endangered Species Act. So true,

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Speaker 2: just people understanding that wild animals are there, including wolves.

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Speaker 2: This poisoning incident gets reported to the Idaho Wildlife Department,

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Speaker 2: so Idaho Fish and Game. Because they know wolves are there,

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Speaker 2: they notify the nearest special agent with US Fish and

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Speaker 2: Wildlife Service, who is Scott Burgonier, and Agent Burgonier and

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Speaker 2: a few game warnings go out to this wagonhammer drainage district,

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Speaker 2: the hiking trail or drainage area, and suddenly they find themselves.

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Speaker 2: Imagine this, mac You Normally, if you're a law enforcement officer,

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Speaker 2: you go into a crime scene. It's that crime scene

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Speaker 2: might consist of a room or two rooms, or a house,

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Speaker 2: maybe a yard. But we're now we're talking about acres

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Speaker 2: and acres of wild land that is potentially your crime scene.

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Speaker 1: And as soon as you said drainage, my heart sank

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Speaker 1: because I thought, how much land are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you look at an aerial map of this,

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Speaker 2: just imagine it's basically a valley with a river running

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Speaker 2: through the middle of it, or a creek. And at

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Speaker 2: this time of year, February and Idaho, it's pretty snowy,

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Speaker 2: it's cold, and there's snow on the ground. So if

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Speaker 2: you can imagine that, you have now all these challenges

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Speaker 2: with just a handful of law enforcement investigators and all

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Speaker 2: you know is a dog ate a meatball and the

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Speaker 2: dog was poisoned. So you know, pretty much, I think

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Speaker 2: if you and I were out there starting this, we'd

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Speaker 2: be like, let's see if we can find some more meatballs. Right,

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Speaker 2: So that's exactly what happened Agent Bergoon here and the

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Speaker 2: state game wardens kind of spread out through this hiking trail,

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Speaker 2: looking on either sides, looking for meatballs, and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: take them long before they start to find kind of

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Speaker 2: golf ball sized holes in the snow, kind of on

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Speaker 2: either side of the trail, left and right, and they

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Speaker 2: reached down into these holes, and sure enough they start

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Speaker 2: to find meatballs about the size of a standard spaghetti

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Speaker 2: and meatball meal. And they obviously think they're onto something,

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Speaker 2: so they start to collect these meatballs and photograph them

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Speaker 2: in place and pick them up. Now they also know,

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Speaker 2: of course, that this dog keeled over within minutes of

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Speaker 2: consuming one of these, so there's some officer safety issues

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Speaker 2: here too. They've got to be gloved up. They don't

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Speaker 2: if there are poison meatballs out there, They don't want

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Speaker 2: to touch this stuff. But in the end, they found

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Speaker 2: fifty eight meatballs scattered throughout this drainage area, and each

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Speaker 2: time they found a meat ball, they kind of cracked

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Speaker 2: it open and inside they found what looked like gray

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Speaker 2: granulated powder, kind of like almost like a thick gunpowder. Now,

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Speaker 2: most agents in the US Fishing Wilife Service are very

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Speaker 2: aware that people tend to use poison to kill predators,

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Speaker 2: and one of the most common poisons out there to

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Speaker 2: do that is called temick or also known as aldacarb,

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Speaker 2: and that is exactly what temck and aldacarp look like.

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Speaker 2: It looks like a gray kind of beaded powder. So

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Speaker 2: good job on the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Right, unbelievable and with the dog plus one, so you know,

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Speaker 1: you're almost at sixty and you just have to imagine

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Speaker 1: how many did they not find, how many had already

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Speaker 1: been consumed.

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Speaker 2: And on that note, another thing that they started to

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Speaker 2: find while they're kind of combing this crime scene are

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Speaker 2: dead animals. They found magpies, which is a federally protected

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Speaker 2: bird looks like a crow, but it has a white wing.

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Speaker 2: They found red fox that were dead, and coyotes, And

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Speaker 2: so if you think about it, these are animals that

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Speaker 2: are just innocent. They're doing nothing, they're just doing their

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Speaker 2: thing in the environment, and within minutes of consuming one

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Speaker 2: of these meatballs, they're dead in place. So it's not

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Speaker 2: like these animals ate a meatball and wandered off and

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Speaker 2: died in seclusion somewhere. The agents and the investigators are

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Speaker 2: finding multiple dead animals across the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: The reality is you're going to have a bayer come

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Speaker 1: along and ate that. You're gonna have maybe other wolves

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Speaker 1: come and try to get a carcass that's been poisoned,

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Speaker 1: and then they're gonna die too.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. It's that secondary poisoning. It can go

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Speaker 2: on and on and on in the environment, killing eagles, vultures,

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Speaker 2: you know, small scavengers, big big predators, all the animals indiscriminately.

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Speaker 2: It's really an insidious It's an insidious tool to use

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Speaker 2: to try to kill an animal because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of things you're gonna kill.

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Speaker 1: And here's what you're really bringing to light for us.

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Speaker 1: Most people would think poachers are single focused. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go get that one rhino, I'm gonna go get that

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Speaker 1: one bear. I don't know that people understand if the

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Speaker 1: poachers are trying to get rid of something that if

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Speaker 1: they use poison, not only are they going to maybe

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Speaker 1: wipe out this whole wolf pack, but they're also going

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Speaker 1: to get maybe the animals that you do care about.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. And it's so indiscriminate and it's used around the world.

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Speaker 2: And you know, that's an interesting point you raise, because

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Speaker 2: there's different kinds of poachers out there. You know, like

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Speaker 2: there are the guys who don't have a license to

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Speaker 2: hunt deer, but they go hunt deer anyway. That's one kind. Then,

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, there are people out there killing animals

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Speaker 2: for profit, like elephants for their ivory or rhinos for

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Speaker 2: their horns. That's a totally different person because they're trying

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Speaker 2: to commercially profit. Then there are these poachers who do

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Speaker 2: things out of spite and anger and ignorance honestly. You know,

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Speaker 2: people who hate wolves because they think wolves are killing

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Speaker 2: too many deer in elk or sometimes wolves do kill cattle,

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Speaker 2: and they're going to take it bond themselves to go

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Speaker 2: back in time one hundred years and make wolves go extinct.

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Speaker 2: That's not there, you know, that's not their place in

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Speaker 2: the world. The American people have been trying to reverse

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Speaker 2: centuries of environmental and habitat destruction. They want wolves back

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Speaker 2: in the Western United States. It's not up to some

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Speaker 2: individual poacher to take it upon him or herself to

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Speaker 2: start killing animals that are of value to the entire

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Speaker 2: American populace. You know, it's frustrating, especially as a law

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Speaker 2: enforcement officer, because you do see all of this. You know,

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Speaker 2: collateral kill and collateral impact that throwing poison out in

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Speaker 2: the environment causes.

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Speaker 1: It's depressing, especially in a drainage way because again you're

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Speaker 1: already talking about one domestic animal that was almost killed,

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Speaker 1: but it gets in that water system. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: like a bullet. It didn't have anybody's name on It

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Speaker 1: is just out there.

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Speaker 2: To hurt something exactly. And and with this poison in

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Speaker 2: particular temic, as I said, each meatball was kind of

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Speaker 2: filled with these granules. If if you accidentally breathed in

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Speaker 2: just one or two of these particles, or if it

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Speaker 2: absorbed through your skin, you could become extremely sick and

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Speaker 2: possibly die. It's just from a few particles of this

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Speaker 2: getting into your you know ingesting it or breathing it

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Speaker 2: in or having it. It's it's bad. It's not quite

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Speaker 2: as quick as fentanyl, but it will kill you, and

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Speaker 2: it will make you real sick, even small amounts of it.

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Speaker 2: So it's a very dangerous poison. We you know, fish

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Speaker 2: and Wildlife special agents receive a lot of training on

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Speaker 2: how to deal with poisons that they encounter in crime

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Speaker 2: scenes like this, and we take it real seriously. So

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Speaker 2: there's another thing that they found during their crime scene

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Speaker 2: investigation that was very interesting, especially from a forensics point

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Speaker 2: of view. They found bootprints. And what tied these bootprints

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Speaker 2: to the meatballs was that in some instances they would

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Speaker 2: find the hole where the meatball had gone into the snow,

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Speaker 2: and directly on top of it there would be one

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Speaker 2: of these bootprints, as if someone had stepped on it

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Speaker 2: to push the meatball down into.

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Speaker 1: Wow, hey, that's really good investigative or that's a great

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Speaker 1: way to articulate what you saw. That explains it to a.

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Speaker 2: Jury exactly, And it explains why these footprints were zero.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously there's hikers there, there's other bootprints, but

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Speaker 2: these prints seemed to be very closely related to the meatballs.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, what are the odds the hikers going

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Speaker 1: to stamp on every meatball? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: So I'm just saying that's really good because a lot

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Speaker 1: of times that's hard to train people. They may really

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Speaker 1: what they're seeing, but they don't always write it down.

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Speaker 1: So if somebody took the time to say, hey, on

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Speaker 1: every single one of these meat balls, we saw this

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Speaker 1: same bootprint, it looked like it was shoving it down

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Speaker 1: into the snow.

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Speaker 2: Well, that makes sense exactly exactly. And as you know,

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Speaker 2: you know footprints, tire prints can be very important because

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Speaker 2: if later you find a boot it gives you something

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Speaker 2: to compare to the print that you saw out in

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Speaker 2: the field. So very smartly, agent Bergoing, you took very

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Speaker 2: good photographs at right angles of these footprints because it

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Speaker 2: was snow. Of course he couldn't or plaster Paris in

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Speaker 2: there because it would destroy the print, but he did

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Speaker 2: record the footprints, and that became very important later because

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Speaker 2: one of the things that really stands out if you

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Speaker 2: look at a photograph of one of these bootprints, if

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Speaker 2: you know, if you kind of were in the world

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Speaker 2: of wildlife and you know hunters, this bootprint is actually

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Speaker 2: immediately recognizable to you as coming from a boot made

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Speaker 2: by a company name called Danner in Oregon, and this

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Speaker 2: particular soul was primarily made for a boot sold by

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Speaker 2: the Cabella's Outfitting company, so you might you know Cabella's

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Speaker 2: and Bass Pro shops as an outdoor supply company, and

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Speaker 2: they exclusively sold this boot made by Danner that had

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Speaker 2: this very unique tread design which almost it almost looks

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Speaker 2: like instead of the classic chunky boot print, it looks

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Speaker 2: like it has points on it, almost like Cleat's little

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Speaker 2: round indentations make up the footprint. So it's kind of

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Speaker 2: a very wreck There's a lot of those boots out there,

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Speaker 2: but it's a very recognizable hunting boot that anybody who's

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Speaker 2: familiar with Danner boots would know that this is that

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Speaker 2: type of boot. There was one other thing they found

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Speaker 2: at the crime scene which turned out to be sort

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Speaker 2: of a joke among everyone, and that is there was

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Speaker 2: a place in the snow where there were two of

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Speaker 2: these bootprints right next to each other as if the

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Speaker 2: person was standing still, and in front of the toes

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Speaker 2: of the prints where some yellow snow, and most of

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Speaker 2: the senior investigators there were like, oh, yeah, well, somebody

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Speaker 2: took a leak and that's that. But a very new

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Speaker 2: straight out of the Academy Game Warden for the Idaho

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Speaker 2: Department of Fishing Game eagerly collected that yellow snow. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: he scooped it up and put it in a bag

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Speaker 2: and preserved it. And everybody kind of teased him because

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Speaker 2: they're like, what are you going to get out of

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Speaker 2: urine that you can't find DNA and a person's urine,

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Speaker 2: So everybody kind of teased him and kind of it

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Speaker 2: became a joke. Nonetheless, this yellow snow got itself booked

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Speaker 2: into evidence. I love it, Okay, As you know, the

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Speaker 2: yellow snow will come back later in this story. So

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Speaker 2: the last thing before the investigators walked off of this

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Speaker 2: crime scene, they found something very very sobering, and that

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Speaker 2: was on top of one of these bootprints, meaning something

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Speaker 2: came through the crime scene after the poison poacher was

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Speaker 2: a wolf print. Right on top of one of these

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Speaker 2: bootprints was a huge wolf print, and they are unmistakable.

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Speaker 2: A wolf print is about the size of your hand.

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Speaker 2: They're big. And so what it meant to Agent Brigonier

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Speaker 2: was that after these meatballs had been placed, at least

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Speaker 2: one wolf had passed through the area. Now, no dead

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Speaker 2: wolf was found, but it's a little scary to think

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Speaker 2: that the very species you're trying to protect did in fact,

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Speaker 2: go through this crime scene after these in fifty eight

356
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Speaker 2: at least boys and meatballs had been placed in the environment.

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Speaker 2: Pretty sobering way to start this investigation. And now as

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Speaker 2: facing all, you know, investigators, you're done with your crime scene.

359
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 2: You've collected fifty eight meatballs, You've taken pictures of bootprints,

360
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Speaker 2: you've collected other dead animals, as you know, collateral kill,

361
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Speaker 2: You've got your yellow snow. Now what right?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: So what now? What do you do? Well? Interestingly, the

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Speaker 2: US Fish and Wildlife Service has its own dedicated criminal

365
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Speaker 2: forensics lab. It's called the Clark Baven Forensics Lab, and

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Speaker 2: it's located in Ashland, Oregon, and their sole purpose is

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Speaker 2: to support law enforcement investigations involving wildlife crime. So, of course,

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Speaker 2: agent Bergoan, you're sent the meatballs to the lab for

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Speaker 2: two things. One is tell me what this meat is

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Speaker 2: and two what's this powdered granular material inside the meatballs?

371
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Speaker 2: He already knew, but he needed scientific forensic evidence. And

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Speaker 2: sure enough, the lab results come back indicating that the

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Speaker 2: granular powder was alde carb also known as TEMK, and

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Speaker 2: that the meat was characteristic of the same tissue that

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Speaker 2: would come from a North American elk okay, So that's

376
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Speaker 2: great information. We know for sure now we got poison

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Speaker 2: and we know this is elk meat.

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Speaker 1: And that tells us something about your suspect.

379
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Speaker 2: You bet, and it gives you something potentially to compare later.

380
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Speaker 2: So out of that meat, of course you're going to

381
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: get the individual DNA from that particular elk and that

382
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 2: of course gives you something to compare later, hoping that

383
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Speaker 2: your investigation goes somewhere. But now we're really in this

384
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Speaker 2: situation where how does agent Burgoonier develop as suspect? How

385
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Speaker 2: do we figure out who this was? There's no surveillance

386
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Speaker 2: cameras at a hiking trail, there's no witnesses, Nobody saw

387
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 2: anybody hiking around there throwing something. You know, it's a

388
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Speaker 2: pretty remote area. And what happens next is, you know,

389
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Speaker 2: an investigator could basically go back to the office and

390
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: sit and twiddle their thumbs and hope somebody calls in

391
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Speaker 2: the tip, or they could really get proactive. And agent

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Speaker 2: burgoon here was never the kind of guy when he

393
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Speaker 2: was working to sit back and twiddle his thumbs. He

394
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: was a very proactive agent and he was very well

395
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Speaker 2: dialed in with the other law enforcement agencies in that

396
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: area of Idaho. So you know, he knew the Federal

397
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 2: for a Service law enforcement, he knew the local police,

398
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 2: he knew the tribal police, he knew everybody, and he

399
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: basically put the word out, Hey, I got this case.

400
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Speaker 2: There's found some poisoned meat in a wolf area. I'm

401
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: trying to figure out who might have put these here.

402
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: Anybody have any idea this? I mean, really, that's what

403
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 2: it came down to. And don't you know, it triggered

404
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: someone's memory. And it turned out that the Nez Perce tribe,

405
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: which is a Native American tribe in that area, employs

406
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: their own staff to work on wildlife issues, and they

407
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 2: had a biologist who remembered having an encounter get this

408
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety eight with an individual known as

409
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Speaker 2: Tim Sundals, and the encounter was so memorable for this

410
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 2: biologist or so unusual that the biologists ended up writing

411
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: a memo about it. And the memo basically detailed how

412
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: the biologist was out in the field and was approached

413
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Speaker 2: by this guy named Tim Sundals, who just started railing

414
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: about how he wanted to kill wolves. During that conversation,

415
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: Sundle's mentioned to the biologist, and this is a quote

416
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 2: straight from the biologist's memo. He said, quote, do you

417
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: think it would work if we dropped a couple of

418
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: elk up there and packed them full of poison? Now?

419
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: Is this our suspect? Well, we don't know, but he

420
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 2: talks about elk, and he talks about poison. So Bragoner

421
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: is better off than he was before he talked to

422
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: this biologist.

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Speaker 1: Even though this was nineteen ninety eight, that's pretty close.

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00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's six years, but it's it's something, right,

425
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Speaker 2: And when you're an investigator, as you know Mac, when

426
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: you're at a loss, you start pulling at threads and

427
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: you see whether or not those threads start to unravel.

428
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: Well, here's the other thing, ed, if this guy's radical,

429
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: those types of folks write things down. That's how we

430
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: have matta festos, that's how we have all these things

431
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,719
Speaker 1: posted on social media. They can't stop themselves.

432
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: Exactly, and they're proud of what they're doing.

433
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're right, Yeah, exactly.

434
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: And one of the other scary things that this individual

435
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: said to the biologist, and this is another quote he

436
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: said to the biologist. He said, if I see a wolf,

437
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill it, and any fed who comes

438
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: and tries to stop me is going to get a

439
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 2: bullet in their back. Now that is.

440
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: Well, he goes he goes to the number one slot

441
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: for me.

442
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean for sure wouldn't. As Agent bergun

443
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: Your thought, Well, hey, this is something I'm gonna I'm

444
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: gonna start looking into this person. So he starts to

445
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: kind of just do some basic investigations and he finds

446
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: out that this Tim Sundles guy was previously invested by

447
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: investigated by the US Fish and Wildlife Service for killing

448
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: a wolf. But interestingly, under the Endangered Species Act, one

449
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: of the legitimate reasons you can kill an endangered species

450
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: is if it's in self defense. Now, wolves do not

451
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: have a history of attacking human beings, but it's possible there.

452
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: Average wolf weighs between one hundred and one hundred and

453
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: thirty pounds, and yeah, if they wanted to, they could

454
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: hurt you. So it turns out back in two thousand

455
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: and one, Tim Sundals actually shot and killed a collared wolf,

456
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: but when it was investigated by a different Fish and

457
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: Wildlife Service special agent at the time, Sundals claimed that

458
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: he killed the wolf in self defense and there was

459
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: just no way to prove otherwise, so there wasn't a case.

460
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: But he now has a history of talking about elk

461
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: meat and poison and actually has killed wolves and has

462
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: talked about it. So he's looking more and more like

463
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: an interesting suspect. And that leads to a search of

464
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: the internet. Where As you said, so many suspects will

465
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: write things down. And one of the things that Tim

466
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 2: Sundles had going was a chat room and a bulletin

467
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: board and a blog, and he loved to post about

468
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: his hatred of the federal government and his hatred of wolves.

469
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: And Agent Burgunier started to sift through his very you know,

470
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: many posts on the Internet, and he saw a lot

471
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: of specific hostile language about us fish and while they

472
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: have served as special agents, basically you know, denigrating us

473
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: as not being very experienced out doorsman and trying to

474
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: trick people and the usual. But one of the things

475
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: that Agent Burgoonner came across was this very interesting passage

476
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: in a blog that Sundals had posted on the internet.

477
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: And get this, wait till I read this to you.

478
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: This is a direct quote off of that blog. It's

479
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: a recipe for how to make poisoned meatballs.

480
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: Add newcomer, I'm not kidding.

481
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: He basically lists out how you do it and it includes,

482
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 2: from his own words, adding a pinch or two of

483
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: temick to the center of the beatball patty and roll

484
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: it into a ball. It should be about the size

485
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: of a golf ball or a little larger. Sol wolf

486
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: can swallow it whole without chewing it.

487
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: Here's what's blowing my mind. First of all, great job agent.

488
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: Second of all, you don't use chicken, you don't use hamburger,

489
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: you don't use noodles. I mean you say meatball.

490
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, meatball. And he even suggests you can make the

491
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: meatball out of beef, elk, or pork. So he's even

492
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: listed elk as a possible.

493
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: That's a money tree.

494
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: It's a money tree. And it gets even slightly better.

495
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: He even says, place between thirty and forty of these

496
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: meatballs out in the environment, and that is almost exactly

497
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: the situation that occurred. Now, does this mean that Tim

498
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: Sundles is the guy who put the meatballs out there? No,

499
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: but he's obviously put this a lot of thought into this.

500
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: He's put it out there on the Internet. Unfortunately, anybody

501
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: else could have read it and used his modus operande

502
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: to do this and followed his instructions. But it's still

503
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: right now. He's agent for Gon, your's best and only suspect.

504
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: So ultimately there's a little more goes on. There's some

505
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: surveillance done of Sundals. He's got a car that has

506
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: some really hostile bumper stickers on it about wolves and Feds.

507
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: But ultimately all the surveillance and all the Internet searches

508
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: lead to enough probable cause to obtain a search warrant

509
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: for Tim Sundle's house. And this is where this is

510
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: the kind of thing an investigator lives for. You have

511
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: developed enough probable cause to convince a judge that you

512
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: should be able to go into someone's home or their

513
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: car or whatever and search. And that search warrant is

514
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: always very specific, as you know, it's you're only looking

515
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: to find evidence of the crimes you're investigating, and you

516
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: execute those warrants with your fingers crossed, hoping what are

517
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: you going to find? You know, am I going to

518
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: find something that ties my suspect to that crime scene?

519
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: And funny enough, as I think about this case and

520
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: I used to talk about it when I would do

521
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: presentations about it while I was an agent myself, I

522
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: always remembered something. And you're going to know this to

523
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: your low cards principle, right, absolutely, yeah, kind of like

524
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: if you're listeners don't know what it is. Low cards

525
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: principles kind of like the basic fundamental aspect of forensics.

526
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: And it's true. If you work enough scenes, you will

527
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: know it's true.

528
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: It is yes, it is true, and it is amazing

529
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: how many times you're out there and you're just like, wow,

530
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 2: this is low cards principle. And the principle of course

531
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: is that if any two items come in contact with

532
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 2: each other, they will leave traces of themselves on the other.

533
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: And that's why it's so you know, critical to crime

534
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: scene investigations because ultimately your goal, right Gerald, is to

535
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: you're going to tie the suspect to the crime scene

536
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: and the victim at the same time, you know, or

537
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 2: the evidence at the scene, and that's what this search

538
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: warrant is hopefully going to do for Agent Brigoni're and

539
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 2: his team. So a month, a month after the poisoning

540
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: occurs March twentieth, two thousand and four, they serve a

541
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: warrant on Timsun house, and the warrant includes the property

542
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: around his house, such as the garage and workshops. And

543
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: don't you know they go in the front door, and

544
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: what do you think they find? Immediately inside the front

545
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: door Para Danner hunting boots with those round nubby souls.

546
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: Shut your my mouth. Yeah, that's absolutely beautiful.

547
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 2: It gets better. One of the things that agent Brigonner

548
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: had noticed at the crime scene when he took the

549
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: photographs was that it appeared and these these round treads

550
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the only way I can describe them

551
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: as nubs. They look like like I said, they look

552
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: like a cleat or a nub. And what he noticed

553
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 2: from the print in the snow was it appeared as

554
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 2: if the nubs weren't symmetrical from left to right. And

555
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 2: in his mind, what that meant was one of these

556
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 2: nubs had come off, had been you know, cut off

557
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: or scraped off, or you know, just in the process

558
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 2: of hiking around. So he turns the boots over and

559
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: what do you know, one of these boots is missing

560
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 2: a nub. So not only do you have a bootprint

561
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: that matches the bootprint at the scene, in terms of

562
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 2: size and tread pattern. But you've got individual characteristic which

563
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 2: is ub yep. Pretty good evidence.

564
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: That is pretty good all day, pretty good.

565
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: But of course, you know, we're always looking to determine

566
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 2: whether or not does our suspect have an ability here

567
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: to create reasonable doubt? So do we know that those

568
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: are Tim's boots? Do we know that Tim was wearing

569
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 2: those boots at the time? You know, these are questions.

570
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: It's great evidence, But can we put Tim in those

571
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: boots on the day of the poisoning? So the search

572
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 2: of the house continues. One of the things, of course,

573
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: that they included in their warrant was because Sundels had

574
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: been posting on the internet, they grabbed his computer. The

575
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: other thing they searched was his garage and his workshop,

576
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 2: And as soon as they opened the doors, they saw

577
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: hunting equipment, including saddle bags that had bloodstains on them,

578
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: a bone saw, and a small bottle white bottle precariously

579
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: balancing on the top of a metal trash can. And

580
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: when they opened that white bottle, the first thing they

581
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: saw were small gray granulated powders.

582
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: This is an unbelievable search.

583
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: Unbelievable search. The bottle was in a basically a calcium

584
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: supplement bottle, so it was used for you know, the

585
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: vitamins were taken out and Sundals had put temic in

586
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: this bottle, and the lab later confirmed that the powder

587
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: inside that bottle was also aldacarb or temic. So now

588
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: we've got the boots in Sundal's house tied to the

589
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: crime scene. We've got temic at his house at the

590
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: crime scene. Next we need to figure out can we

591
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: tie the elk meat. And the first thing Agent Bergoner

592
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: did was he zeroed in on these saddlebags that had

593
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: bloodstains on them and he immediately collected those as evidence

594
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: and they were sent to the forensics lab. Now, before

595
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: I tell you what the forensic lab results were, let

596
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: me say that another thing they found inside his house

597
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 2: was a box full of bumper stickers that talked about,

598
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: you know, save a ranch or kill a wolf. Lots

599
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 2: of anti wolf things, But among those bumper stickers was

600
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: one that said, save the US Constitution, eliminate a FED. Now,

601
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: when you're a federal agent or a federal employee in general,

602
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: trying to serve your community and work in an environment

603
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 2: where people have bumper stickers basically, you know, calling for

604
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: you to be eliminated. What what does that mean? Exactly?

605
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 2: That's a scary environment to try to be a public servant, right, And.

606
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that also goes back to what he

607
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: said to the biologist. So you're showing a pattern conclusively

608
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: that he has not only believed this for years, he's

609
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: elevated what he's doing.

610
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, and he's he's intentionally he's everything about him

611
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: just says he's intentionally violating the law.

612
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: And can I ask you a question. He doesn't seem

613
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: like the type of man that would have a roommate.

614
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: So again, I think putting him in them boots is

615
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: going to be pretty easy.

616
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, I agree it would be. It's excellent.

617
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: I mean, it's almost irrefutable evidence. Right, they're well worn

618
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: in boots. He's you know who else is going to

619
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 2: be wearing those boots in his family? He's the hunter

620
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: of the family.

621
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the imperfection, plus his recipe. Plus he said

622
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: he was going to do it.

623
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So the couple things happened. Next, they seized computers,

624
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: So now there's going to be a forensic examination of

625
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: computers and emails traffic and whatever supposed there also the blood,

626
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: and they also found in the shed they found a

627
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: bone saw. So the bone saw and the saddle bags

628
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: and the temich all go to the FWS Forensics Lab

629
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: in Ashland, Oregon. So let's talk about a little bit

630
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 2: what they found as a result of the forensic analysis

631
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: of the computers first, and then we'll talk about what

632
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: they found at the lab. One of the things they

633
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: found in doing a search warm on the computers was

634
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: a whole lot of stored emails. And in those emails,

635
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: he's writing to different people and talking about very specifically

636
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: about how to poison wolves. I give you an example

637
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: in one email he sent in two thousand and three.

638
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: You know, he talks about poisoning is much more effective

639
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: than shooting, especially in winter when the wolves are confined

640
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: to their winter grounds, and the best playway to do

641
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: it is to put a frozen meatball made out of

642
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: elk because of the last all winter long. Yeah, it's

643
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: just one one thing after another. Right now, at the

644
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: Fishingwilife Forensics Lab in Ashland, they start to take scrapings

645
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: off of these blood stains on these saddle bags, and

646
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: of course they already have the meatballs that were collected

647
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 2: at the crime scene, so they can do a DNA

648
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: comparison between the blood and the saddle bags and the meatballs.

649
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: And don't you know, not only is the blood in

650
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: the saddle bags elk meat, but it came from the

651
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: same elk that those meatballs were made out of.

652
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: You have got to be kidding me.

653
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 2: I know, it gets better and better. Every turn in

654
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 2: this case just got better and better. And some of

655
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: it's luck and some of it is just downright tenacity

656
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: by you know, Agent Brigonnier. And you know, with all

657
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 2: the support from the lab personnel on the state investments,

658
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 2: all of.

659
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: That, well, that lab is amazing. But I'm gonna tell you,

660
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: Agent Bogoonier, you handle this thing good night. I mean,

661
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: because it's one thing, you know, like I've collected things

662
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: that people have made fun of me for and I

663
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: always say, well, I don't know how it fits, yes,

664
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: but I may later. I just know something didn't look right,

665
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: it didn't belong there to me, so I took it whatever.

666
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: But frozen yellow snow, come on, they're gonna make fun

667
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: of you. Just yellow snow period in your report is hilarious.

668
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: I mean, you have to write that, but look what

669
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: came from it.

670
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and we haven't even you know, I mean,

671
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 2: as of now, we've locked down that the elk meat

672
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: is connected to the house and the boots are connected

673
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 2: to the crime scene.

674
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 1: And this is a dangerous person. And I want people

675
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: to understand. I say it all the time. Anybody that

676
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: can kick a dog kill a kitten. And I am

677
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: not talking about legal hunting. I'm not talking about legal

678
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: hunting a fishing. I'm talking about somebody at a meanness,

679
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: out of a direct target, is going to kill animals.

680
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: That person, absolutely, without a doubt, can kill a human.

681
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: And this man said it over and over and over.

682
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: You bet. And this is different than hunting. This is

683
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: not hunting. This is right, yeah right, This is not hunting.

684
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 2: And you know, an interesting aside to this is that

685
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: the US Department of Justice keeps statistics on assaults on

686
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: law enforcement officers, and consistently every year, the law enforcement

687
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: profession that has the highest number of physical assaults on

688
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: them are conservation officers, game mordens, wildlife officers, special agents.

689
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: I did not know that.

690
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very dangerous profession because a lot of

691
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: the criminals you're dealing with are armed, and you can't.

692
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: You know, if you're approaching a hunter to do an

693
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: enforcement action, of course they're going to have a gun.

694
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 2: They always have a gun.

695
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: You know. I did a training with Native American rangers

696
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: and that's one of the things they told me. They said, first,

697
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: they are by themselves for thousands and thousands of acres.

698
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 1: I mean, their backup is a long way away. Anyway.

699
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: That's the first thing that they made me very aware

700
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: of is that every single person they come in contact

701
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: with has a gun. Everyone.

702
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 2: Yes, So, I mean kind of famously, maybe ten years ago,

703
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: there was a US Fish and Wildlife Service refuge officer

704
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: who was involved in a shooting in the Desert National

705
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: Wildlife Refuge outside of Las Vegas. And this is a

706
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 2: guy who was on his own patrolling millions of acres,

707
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: and it it was kind of you know, we were

708
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 2: all reminded that we listened to the radio traffic after

709
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 2: the shooting incident where he's requesting backup. It took an hour.

710
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 2: It took an hour for the nearest law enforcement officer

711
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 2: to reach his location on a shooting call.

712
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: Yep, that's unbelievable. I mean, I knew the danger. I

713
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: didn't know that that groove was the number one assaulted.

714
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: The good news is based on what agent Burgonier was

715
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 2: able to obtain from the crime scene and the search warrant,

716
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 2: it actually was enough for the United States Attorney's Office

717
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: to file charges against Sundals. Now, interestingly, the charges were

718
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: not for killing a wolf because no wolf body was found,

719
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: but attempt to do it carries the same penalty, So,

720
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 2: believe it or not, this is actually the first case

721
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: in the history of the US Fish and Wilife Service

722
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: where a person was actually charged with attempting to kill

723
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: and a threatened or endangered species. So it's kind of

724
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: a case of first impression, but definitely was enough evidence

725
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: to file those charges.

726
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: Brilliant. Well, I hope he got sixty charges because each

727
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: one should have served as a charge.

728
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: Hey, exactly fifty eight counts right of throwing those meatballs.

729
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: So he pleads not guilty and immediately goes on the

730
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 2: media offensive about you know, of course, the out of

731
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 2: control federal agency, and he said some things that didn't

732
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 2: help him. For example, he said, poisoning if pets is

733
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: simply collateral damage, which doesn't make you very popular. With

734
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: the public right now. What we have is we have

735
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 2: evidence that you know, boots in his possession matched the

736
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 2: prints at the scene of the suspect. We got the

737
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: same type of poison found in the suspect's garage, we

738
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: got meat from the same elk from the crime scene.

739
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: That's he matches the blood in his garage. And we know,

740
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: of course that he's a jerk. But then there's one

741
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: more thing that Bragonia thinks about, and that is that

742
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: as he's considering what do we how do we get

743
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: ready for trial, he's looking at the evidence that's booked

744
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 2: into you know, into evidence, and he finds this frozen

745
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 2: yellow snow and he says, what what is Well? Could

746
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: this be important? Why is this important? And you know,

747
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: I think Mac, you and I have talked about this.

748
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 2: You know why. There is one time when a person's

749
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 2: DNA will show up in their urine. It's when they're sick.

750
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 2: And if you have a cold or you're getting over cold,

751
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: your body will shed cells and it ends up in

752
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: your urine and it's you know, there's.

753
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: Oh, please tell me he was sick, Please tell me. So.

754
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 2: In going through all of his emails from the search warrant.

755
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 2: Bragonire remembered that the week before the meat balls had

756
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 2: been thrown out there, Tim Sundles had been complaining to

757
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: his friends about having had the flu.

758
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: Oh the word.

759
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. So now we've got a suspect who's pleading not guilty.

760
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 2: He wants to go to trial. He's gone on the

761
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: public you know, public media, offensive against government. But Brigonia

762
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 2: goes in front of a judge in the US District

763
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: Court and says, I want an order authorizing me to

764
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: take a DNA sample from Tim Sundles, and the judge

765
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: grants it. So the judge has now ordered Tim Sundle

766
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 2: to turn over a DNA sample so it can be

767
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: compared against the DNA that's found in the urine, And

768
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: don't you know that immediately causes him to plead guilty.

769
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: That is a beautiful thing, that is outstanding. And you know,

770
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: you can get DNA from urine, but you know, it's

771
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: it's not as easy as people think. I mean, first

772
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: of all, it's got to be fresh and all that,

773
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: and then you've got to keep it at a low temperature.

774
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 1: So how fortunate that it was frozen. I mean, everything

775
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 1: just worked out beautifully. But I'm going to say something now,

776
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: it worked out beautifully because of a lot of hard work.

777
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 1: I mean when you're talking about I mean just hundreds

778
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: and hundreds of acres, and those meatballs could have been

779
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: anywhere for him to find one after the other after

780
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: the other and then keep searching. I mean, Agent bragone,

781
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: You're saved possibly hundreds of animals.

782
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he basically he delivered consequences to somebody

783
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: who desperately needed consequences.

784
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 1: His behavior for the safety of animals and humans.

785
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. And it kind of sent a

786
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 2: message to anyone else who's thinking about this that and

787
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: this is something I always told people. You know, US

788
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: Fish and Wildlife Service agents are among the most tenacious

789
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: federal investigators I've ever seen in my life. And they

790
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, if you commit a wildlife crime a US

791
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 2: Fish and Wildlife Service agent, they will pursue you, they

792
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: will catch you, and they will put you in jail.

793
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: It's just it's not a matter of if, it's a

794
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: matter of when. And that's exactly what you know happened here,

795
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: and I think one of the best outcomes from this case. Unfortunately,

796
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: the Endangered Species Act carries fairly low penalties, so it's

797
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: not like we can say Tim Sundles went to jail

798
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 2: for a long time. But some interesting things occurred in

799
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 2: his sentence that were I think very painful for him.

800
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: One of one is that he was prohibited from from

801
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 2: entering federal property for the entire term of his probation,

802
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 2: which was two years. And if you live in Idaho,

803
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: a lot of Idaho is federal property, either a service

804
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: land or BLM land, so it kind of is impingement

805
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 2: on your lifestyle.

806
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: It was two miles he could go in good exactly.

807
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 2: But my favorite part was the Washington Post. Every year

808
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: they post a Idiot of the Year, and it's a

809
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 2: number of people that make the list, but Tim Sundals

810
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: was the twenty first idiot of the year for that year.

811
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: And I'll just read you real quick what the Washington

812
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: Post said. It said, Tim Sundals. Tim Sundals, Who's unabashed

813
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 2: hatred of US government efforts to reintroduce gray wolves out

814
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: West borders on fanatical. In his latest scheme to finish

815
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: off the endangered species, he planted poison lace meatballs in

816
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: Idaho's remote Salmon Shayliss National Forests, instead of killing wolves.

817
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: Though the meatballs ended up poisoning a coyotea fox, and

818
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: birds and three pet dogs. So he public shaming is

819
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 2: it is a valuable tool because whether or not you

820
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: go to jail, or whether or not you pay a

821
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: lot of fines, having all your neighbors know what you

822
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 2: did and how you did it, and that the government

823
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: caught you and your guiltiest sin is a valuable deterrent.

824
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: Amen. It makes it that much harder for him to

825
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: ever do it again because he's going to be usual suspects.

826
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: He's always going to be on.

827
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 2: Your list exactly one hundred percent. And you know, I

828
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 2: mentioned that the Endangered Species Act has, you know, not

829
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 2: great penalties necessarily, but where people really start to get

830
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: into trouble and go to jail is when they commit

831
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 2: subsequent offenses. So if he turns up again in committing

832
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: a wildlife crime, a state or a federal judge is

833
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: going to look at his record and say, well, this

834
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: is a prior violator who didn't learn his lesson before.

835
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: I'm going to send him to jail. So I've seen

836
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: that before where subsequent violators end up actually doing some

837
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 2: pretty good time because they demonstrated that they didn't learn

838
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 2: a lesson, so that's always hanging over his head.

839
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: Ed, I cannot thank you enough, and I'm just gonna again, y'all.

840
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: If you can work this case, you can work any

841
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 1: case out there. This was I mean, you can call

842
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: some of it luck, but that's not what I see.

843
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: I see literally boots in the snow working this thing

844
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: to the very end, collecting things. You don't even know

845
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: what it's going to result in. You're just going to

846
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: have it and see what comes from it. That's just

847
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: unbelievably solid investigative work, one hundred percent. All right, Ed,

848
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: I will see you in Denver Crime con.

849
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 2: Looking forward to it. I can't wait.

850
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: Well, y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the way

851
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: that I always do with a quote. It all starts

852
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: with the Wolves, Peter Woolen Bear, The Hidden Life of Trees.

853
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this his own seven

854
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: H