WEBVTT - From the Vault: Roman Extinctions 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.560 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.880 name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.760 Time to go into the vault. This episode originally aired 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:18.600 on June nineteen, and it was about the Roman extinctions. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:23.040 We all know that we're creating plenty of ecological catastrophes 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.119 and extinctions today, but how far back has this gone 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.639 in history? Or are there examples we can find of 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.879 previous empires driving species to extinction? Right? Yeah, And it's 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.839 not to single out the Romans as the only empire 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.400 that caused extinctions, but there are some pretty interesting examples 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:45.080 from that time period. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:54.200 a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.120 you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.480 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.600 gonna be talking about not just extinctions, but we're gonna 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:06.840 be talking about Roman extinctions, extinctions that occurred during the 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.280 time of the Roman Republic, but especially the Roman Empire. 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:12.720 That sounds like one of those names for like a 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.800 made up lewd act, the Roman Extinction. Roman Extinctions made 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.880 maybe so good band names certainly so, Robert. I know 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:21.959 you wanted to talk about this because of some weird, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:24.920 uh maybe false memory you had that you were trying 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.440 to explain to me yesterday. But it seems like a 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.160 very apt topic, whatever the inspiration, because of course, all 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.400 decadent empires place large stresses on the environment around them 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.720 about so you would expect the you know, one of 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.000 the great decadent empires of history would do the same. Yeah. 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.320 So I think, well, one of the important things to 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.840 keep in mind throughout this topic is, like, we're not 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.920 we're certainly not meaning to single the Romans out as 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.160 being like the like the the the soul examples of 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:58.000 some of these activities that led to uh, to some extinctions, um, 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:00.480 because ultimately you can look to very parts of the 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.720 world in various times, including our own, to see plenty 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.160 of extinction inducing activities. But I think it's an interesting 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.440 exercise to sort of look to to look at Rome, 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.120 which which would have been I think, in many ways 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:17.720 sort of uh, an intensification of of impulses that were 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.919 already present in other cultures. So to to get started, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.760 let's just remind everybody who the Romans were. I'm not 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.600 sure that one of the Romans ever done for us. Yeah, 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.480 I mean, well, speaking of that, yeah, you know, I 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:33.680 don't for reasons like that, I think that we don't 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.320 really need like a full introduction. I think pretty much 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.440 everybody has some idea of who the Romans were and 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.040 what the Roman Empire was about. I mean, just the 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.280 basic tropes um of of the Roman Empire a pretty 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.600 uh you know, ubiquitous in our culture. Um. Look to, 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.239 for instance, to Monty Python's Life of Brian, which you 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.200 just quoted, which by the way, has been singled out 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.320 for being actually quite historically accurate concernment concerning life in 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.000 Roman occupied first century Judea. Yeah, I've read that before. 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.600 A lot of historians that it's more accurate than a 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.480 lot of serious movies, right, yeah, because you know, a 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.280 lot of de pictions of Rome, they really especially the 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.480 older cinematic interpretations, but even like more modern films that 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.040 were influenced by those older interpretations, you just get like 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:25.000 the stoic, colorless, very British vision of Rome generally not 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.520 a lot of like street level understanding. Um. But but but 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.360 that's one of the reasons that HBO's Rome series, it 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.320 was on for several years um, you know, which isn't perfect, 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.200 but certainly had some admirers because of the way that 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.080 it injected a lot of of color and and and 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.920 life off in like street level life into this time 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:49.400 in this place. I've also read that Kubrick spartacus Is 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.720 is more accurate than a lot of the films that 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.680 that you would have encountered in the nineteen sixties regarding 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.280 the Romans, but of course still has a number of 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.640 problems as well. I mainly just remember Joe Panaliono in 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.400 the sub Pranos being mad at it because Kirk Douglas 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:04.960 has a flat top and he's like, they didn't have 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:09.600 flat tops in ancient Rome. Um. But by the way, 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.840 I I always enjoyed the Ancient Roman detective novels of 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:17.200 Gordianus The Finder by Stephen saler Um. I highly recommend 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.080 those to anybody there to be clear contemporary novels set 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.200 in ancient Rome. Anyway, we're in short, we're talking about 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.640 an empire centered in Rome, established in twenty seven b 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.320 C after the collapse of the Roman Republic, which was 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.520 founded in five oh nine BC, and eventually grew grew 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.960 rather rather sizeable and actually rather difficult to manage due 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:41.440 to its size, stretching across Europe, the Balkans, the Middle East, 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.880 and North Africa. It's the classic risk problem. You over 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.440 extend your armies, you go out too far, you think 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.800 you can hold all of Asia and get those whatever, 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:51.760 you know, fifty men at the end of each turn, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.599 that is to overextend. Yeah, it's the problem you see 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.880 in every empire without fail and uh. And since they 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.000 were an empire, they were of course built on military 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.080 conquest in domination of other lands. And and to be fair, 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.080 the characters in Monty Python are mostly correct in their 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.440 list of the quote unquote good things that the Romans 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.160 have done for us. Um. You know, we've we've we 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.200 talk a lot, especially on our other podcast, Invention, about 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.480 various Roman innovations. Roman technologies talked about sewers and toilets, 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.360 sewers and toilets, But of course they didn't risk bring 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.799 sewers and toilets. They all in Rhods. They also brought 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.560 death and bloodshed. They depended on slave labor and uh, 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.159 we can at least lay some of the hollow scene 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:37.040 extinctions at their sandaled feet. So that's what we're gonna 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.800 focus on today. And uh, and just fair warning that 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.880 we will be talking in places about the Romans trade 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.320 and exotic animals and their harsh treatment of these animals 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:49.800 in the in the arenas and in the Colosseum, and 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.359 this is all bloody and depressing stuff, cruelty to animals 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.159 on a massive scale, So just you know, sort of 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.920 fair warning on that, and uh, and just a reminder 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.440 for information on how to report cruelty to animals today 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.520 in the United States, please visit the American Society for 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.960 the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals at a spc A 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.599 dot org or search for Report Animal Abuse a s 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.480 p c A. That being said, let's move on to 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.960 the extinctions. Okay, let's hear about it. So one of 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.080 the articles that we were looking at and preparing for 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.680 this episode is an excellent two thousand and sixteen Atlantic 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.280 article titled the Exotic Animal Traffickers of Ancient Rome by 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.040 Caroline Wazer and the it she points out that bloody 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.520 animal spectacles were an important part of Roman culture, Like 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:36.680 you know, it wasn't just you know, something that was 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.839 also going on. It's not like say, pointing to today's 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.960 culture and saying like, uh, look at look at the 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.520 popularity of say, mixed martial arts. It's central to the 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.560 American experience. I don't know, you can maybe make that argument, 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.240 but it's not just a thing in the culture. It's 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.920 like an integral part of the culture. Maybe you're saying 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.520 like you can't really understand the culture without it. Yes, yeah, 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.160 and I believe that's the point. She's a king. Um So, 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.600 I think most of us are familiar more familiar with 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:08.159 human on human gladiator sports, which we've we've touched on 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.920 on this show before and if it's in you know, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.840 any things in large part of Ridley Scott's Gladiator in 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.560 modern times, but so many different treatments of gladiatorial combat 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.360 have been rolled out in our media. But it wasn't 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:25.720 just human on human violence. You also had daminatio at best. 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:27.960 It's my Latin correct on that, Joe. It looks like 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.600 dumb natio a beast. I mean, I'm not an expert either, okay, 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.040 but dumb natio right like damn nation. Well anyway, it 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.320 stands for execution by beasts. And then there were the 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:42.520 venatitiones or the hunts, in which animals were condemned to 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.560 die either at the hands of human hunters um and 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.720 sometimes like just we're talking like just a brutal display 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.120 of like a hunter dispatching all sorts of exotic animals 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.160 out there on the field, or they would have animals 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.760 battle each other all for sport. And sadly, these uh, 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.280 these blood sports have been a part of human civilization 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.240 for quite a while, and though thankfully outlawed in most places, 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.760 but still, cock fighting remains legal in parts of the world, 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.640 as does dog fighting. Sports like bear baiting and lion 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.440 baiting continued depressingly far into modern times, at least in 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.320 some parts of the world, and bullfighting remains legal and 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.200 parts of the world as well, uh, namely Spain and Portugal. 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.120 I would say it's not quite the same because it 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.320 doesn't involve vertebrates. But I mean even the bug fights 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.480 thing on the internet. I'm sure you've seen that. We're 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.280 like crickets or beatles are made to combat each other, 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.480 or centipedes or spiders. I mean, it's just basically, you 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.840 put two kind of scary looking bugs into a container 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.760 together and then shake it and try to make them fight. Yeah, 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.640 it's uh, I don't know what exactly that impulses. I mean, 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.360 there's a part of it. I guess I understand because 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.840 I remember when I was a kid, I would very 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:57.360 often want to ask adults questions like what would win 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.079 in a fight between a tarantula and a score be 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.920 in and like as if I thought that, like, adults 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.400 just know these things. You know that, Yeah, you're grown up, 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:07.719 you know which one would win. Well, there is kind 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.040 of like a need, there's an human necessity to to 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.840 rank and profile the creatures of the natural world. And 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.240 you still see this kind of thing in like kids 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.080 books today, Like my son has a book, uh like 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.400 who would Win? And and it's it's about prehistoric creatures 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.040 and dinosaurs, uh, and all good educational information, but it's 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:31.640 delivered uh with the wrappings of this creature versus this creature. 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.439 So I was not alone in this childhood curiosity. No, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.080 I think it's I mean, I think there's something you know, 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.640 normal and healthy in it. I mean, I mean, look 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.959 at nature documentaries, uh, which can be quite uncomfortable to 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.720 watch at times when you have a predator and prey 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.360 battling each other. But of course one of the key 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.600 differences here is that these are natural occurrences or they 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.880 better damn well, be natural occurrences in a nature documentary, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.160 and they're not something that has been orchestrated through cruelty 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:03.920 by humans looking for entertainment. Right. Putting animals into the 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.600 Roman arenas kind of the equivalent of the bug fight 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:08.360 like you put him in the box and shake it 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.120 and try to get him fighting, right. So I think 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.000 this is though, an example of where you know, if 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.800 you know the Roman cruelty to animals via blood sport, 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.280 it's it's an outsized and more sensational example of something 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:25.040 that occurs in other cultures and in other times. It's 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.320 not an excuse for any of this, but again it's 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.719 important to ground such activities in the larger picture of 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:34.000 human awfulness. But ways are actually opens her article with 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:38.320 a discussion of a Roman orator m. Marcus Cicero in 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.440 his correspondences with a former illegal client, a man by 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.319 the name of Marcus Calias. This is while Cicero was 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:51.240 governor of Cilicia in modern day Turkey. So basically um 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.000 Calias just continued to hound Cicero about how he needs 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.280 him to have some hunters capture and send back some 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.120 local leopards, which they refer to a Greek panthers because 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.120 he needs because he's He's like, you gotta give these 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.040 to me, Cistero. I've got to throw him in the arena. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.720 The people love this, and I'm trying to kick start 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.640 my political career here, come on, don't let me down. 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.720 And it's just it's like multiple correspondences where he's just 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.440 really hounding Cistero over this, and Cistero keeps dodging him 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.040 on the matter and saying, well, look, the the you know, 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.599 the local hunters are busy, you know, etcetera. That's that 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:26.960 sort of thing. It's like, can you get Mick Jagger 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.120 to come to my party? Yeah, I mean it is. 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.200 It's like, imagine if instead of when you see an 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:36.640 individual running for political office today, instead of it being 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.840 a situation of them trying to score saying Neil Young 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.280 or you know, the guzzlers to play their event, if 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:46.239 instead you were trying to procure exotic animals to massacure 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.720 each other in a public arena. But it speaks to 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.280 how important this was to at least a large segment 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.920 of the population. And so this is something that would 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.120 have been practiced in uh, you know, in the Roman Republic. 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.400 But but then reached you know, new heights in the 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.160 Roman Empire. But it but it also is important to 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.160 know that like, not everybody was completely on board with this. Uh. 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.640 Wayser shares descriptions by by Cicero that describe it as 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.560 being you know, barbaric and unnecessary and uh. And there 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.240 are also some descriptions by a plenty of the Elder 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.600 as well, which I think we can we can trust 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.720 him a little bit more here because he's dealing with 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.960 domestic matters and not mysterious species that he has no 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.360 firsthand knowledge of. But the plenty you will get vindicated 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.880 a little bit later on in this episode two. But 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.320 but in this case, Wayser points out things that they 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.360 were both writing about how Pompey the Great organized a 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.880 series of spectacles. Um. But but what like the main 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.360 event essentially was a great elephant hunt in the arena. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.640 And it's interesting interesting in the in the accounts that 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.880 showed that that while individuals like Cicero viewed these shows 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.800 as bloody and cruel, the crowds generally loved it. But 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.600 the elephant hunt was even too much for the masses. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.000 And here's the quote from Cicero, obviously translated that She's 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.520 shares quote the last day was that of the elephants, 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.960 on which there was a great deal of astonishment on 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.840 the part of the vulgar crowd, but no pleasure whatever. Nay, 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.760 there was even a certain feeling of compassion aroused by it, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.520 and a kind of belief created that the animal has 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:20.320 something in common with mankind. Yet they kept watching. Huh, well, yeah, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.160 they kept watching, and but apparently felt awful about it, 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.640 and there was you know, some some booze and whatnot. 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640 And of course this didn't prevent later elephant spectacles from 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.679 taking place, and and ultimately indeed, like the continued trafficking 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.839 of exotic animals is the focus of Weser's article. Uh 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.640 that there was this booming industry for folks who would 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.120 arrange the capture of exotic wild animals, generally from the 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.199 extremes of the Empire, and then transport them back to 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.640 Rome to fight in the arena. So it was a 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.360 cruel business, but enthusiasm, the enthusiasm for the spectacles in 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.640 the arena also also bubbled over into enthusiasm for the 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.760 details of the actual hunts and the tactics that procured them, 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.880 and this is reflected both in the literature of the 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.439 day and also in the art of the Roman Empire, 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.000 where you see murals and whatnot depicting individuals hunting these 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.200 wild animals so they could bring them back, and that 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.360 that the wildness of it was something that the Romans 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.320 seemed to crave, if she points out, because the uh 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.640 there there weren't there weren't really that many attempts to 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.240 try and raise them in captivity. They had to be 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.600 captured and brought back to Rome as part of the appeal. 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.800 I wonder if the idea about the methods used in 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.640 hunting them, does that show up later in the sort 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.040 of styles of gladiators that appear in the arena, because 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.480 I know, we have like the there was the style 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.880 of gladiator that's modeled after the fisherman, you know that 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.400 has like the trident and the net and all that. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.880 So there are certain styles that seem to be based 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.160 on on like the armies of opposing nations, or or 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.080 on professions like fishing. I wondered also if that the 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.960 hunting methods that they talked about, what these animals can 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.160 tributed there? Uh yeah, I mean it might very well 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:04.800 be the case. So she doesn't get into that in 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:06.680 this paper, and I didn't see it mentioned in some 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.440 of the other more animal focused sources I was looking 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:14.040 at here. But you know, obviously the gladiatorial tropes that 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.720 they used in the arena, they were all, you know, 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.880 based on existing things, you know, to be it be 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.520 it a fisherman or a uh, you know, a soldier 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.880 or you know, some sort of animal component that was 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.520 going to be echoed in the design. So let's come 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.800 back to the elephants though, because I think because so far, 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.760 that's been the most alarming, um, you know, obscenity that 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.200 we've looked at here on the part of the Romans. Yeah, 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.840 it's interesting that passage that you read from Cicero where 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.360 you know, he's describing the crowds feeling sympathy for the 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.840 elephants while they watch this brutality being done to them. 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.880 I mean, I wonder if there's more of that kind 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:54.280 of thing going on in the appetites of the Roman 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.479 Arena audiences than we would normally imagine, like we imagine 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.440 the audiences of the editorial games and all this kind 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.680 of stuff just being you know, bloodthirsty, like, yeah, they 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.240 want the fight, they want the violence, and and they 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.480 love it and they're eating it up. I wonder if 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.600 there was some element of the audience that I don't know, 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.480 it's something more equivalent to to the kind of like 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.120 hate watching or the hate clicking kind of thing that 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.920 people do now, like where you know, people are constantly 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.840 clicking on things on the Internet that they know we're 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.160 going to make them unhappy. You know, you just reliably 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.880 know if I click this link, I'm gonna feel bad 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.000 and I'm not gonna like what I read, but I 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.120 click it anyway. You know, I wonder where people going 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.320 to the arena, like, I know, I'm gonna feel bad, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.400 but I have to look at this, you know, that 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:45.080 would be might be worth while to come back and 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.960 explore that in greater detail, like the nature of these 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:53.960 gladiatorial blood sport events um which we should stress are 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.920 generally there were a lot more varied, uncomplicated than uh 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:03.440 it is often relayed in fular media, but still we're violent, blood, 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.560 blood thirsty events. You know, what, what was the psychology 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:08.440 of that? And then how much of that psychology still 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.480 remains in the fandom of various you know, high impact 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.600 sporting events or you know, actual mixed martial arts or 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:21.880 other martial arts contests or even simulated um athletic contests 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.280 such as professional wrestling. I don't know, I have to 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:26.240 come back to that, I think. But one thing the 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.439 ways are also points out is you know that like 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:33.120 there were there their artistic uh renditions of say big 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.639 cats that were used in some of these events, and 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.399 they would be given names in the art and they 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.600 would be kind of there, like some of the iconography 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:43.520 would be akin to that that would you be used 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:48.639 for human gladiators. So yeah, it gets it gets sticky. 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:50.680 And and then I mean just thinking about the elephants 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.320 and the obvious connection, like the obvious intelligence that is 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.400 there in the elephant, and the sympathy that one feels 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.520 like this, uh, this kind of connection like has existed 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.160 throughout I think our our experiences with elephants, and yet 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.040 cruelty to elephants continues to this day. Uh and um, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.320 you know had certainly continued on through the you know, 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:14.040 the history of circuses around the world. So um, yeah, 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.200 I mean our relationship with animals is always complicated, even 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.160 when we have you know, sympathy actually activated for them. Well, 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.080 I know you wanted to explore more about the Romans 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.480 and the elephants. Yeah, so I I found a book 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.000 titled Elephant Destiny, Biography of an Endangered Species in Africa 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.439 by Martin Meredith. And in this the author details the 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.119 slaughter in the Roman arenas in general in the in 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:43.040 the opening of Pompei's Games in the b C. And 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.919 he mentions that no fewer than six hundred lions were massacured. 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:52.040 Just to give everyone an idea of the scale of bloodshed. Here, 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.520 six hundred lions. Can you imagine, I mean a lion 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.520 is a lion as an apex predator, so there already 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.960 aren't that many of them. And to remove six hundred 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.760 lions from their habitat, Yeah, to essentially like basically put 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.679 out the call and say, look, Pompey the Great knees lions. 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.680 So everybody that is in the in the business of 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.719 catching lions or could conceivably catch a lion, get out 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.239 there and start catching lions. Essentially, uh and and this 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.560 but this one meant just before the elephant event described previously, 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:28.800 So what elephants were they catching? Well, the author here 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.760 points out that the North African elephant was was the 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.199 likely species, as these were the elephants used by the 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:40.320 forces of Hannibals, Carthagian army, the African bush elephant that 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.719 is still around. Um that this one is too wild 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:44.960 to to ride around or to really tame in the 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:49.840 same way that one uses uh, the Asian elephant and 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.040 uh and and not to just you know, to a 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:57.200 single out Carthage. Other groups used the North African elephant 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:00.640 for labor in war as well, but any by following 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.359 hannibals defeat, the region fell under Roman control, and the 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.520 Romans used these elephants in their bloody sports as well 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.600 as in attractions that really have more in common with 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.119 the sort of circus work that we see uh, you know, 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.800 throughout even like the twentieth century. And then that includes 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.760 things like tight rope walking here, yeah, they single he 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.000 singles that out in the book. But here's a quote 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:25.120 that touches on the additional levels of exploitation that could 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.000 become employed. Quote. Rome's liking for elephants meant that the 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:33.000 North African herds faced constant raids, But even more perilous 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.240 was the insatiable Roman demand for ivory. Ivory was used 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.840 to decorate temples and palaces, carried in triumphal processions and 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:46.320 made into a vast range of luxury goods, thrones, chess statues, chairs, beds, 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:51.040 book covers, tablets, boxes, bird cages, combs, and broches. Caesar 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.920 wrote in an ivory Chariot Seneca possessed five hundred tripod 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.240 tables with ivory legs. Do you need that many tables 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:03.000 for large events? Large scale events? I guess Caligula gave 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.760 his horse an ivory stable. Wow, I'm glad we got 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.800 Caligula in there. I wasn't sure we were can actually 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.600 uh be able to make room for him. So that 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.320 being said, some of the ivory came from India and Ethiopia, 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.480 but North Africa suffered the most, and in seventies seven CE, 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.400 plenty of the Elder Road about the shortage of African 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.000 ivory quote an ample supply of ivory is now rarely 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:30.360 obtained except from India, the demands of luxury having exhausted 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.200 all those in our part of the world. And of course, 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.960 um the ivory trade still remains a threat to elephant populations, 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:41.199 despite laws and the hard work of of conservationist worldwide. 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.679 And if you want more information about what's going on 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.200 and what can be done, I recommend everyone check out 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:51.280 stop ivory dot org for more information. Okay, but what 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.359 was the ultimate effect on the elephant populations? Do we 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.359 know if the Roman exploitation of these animals did it 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.919 Did it damage their populations, did it drive mixtincts? The 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:05.359 general consensus is that it it definitely drove their extinction. 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.040