1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault. This episode originally aired 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: on June nineteen, and it was about the Roman extinctions. 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: We all know that we're creating plenty of ecological catastrophes 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: and extinctions today, but how far back has this gone 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: in history? Or are there examples we can find of 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: previous empires driving species to extinction? Right? Yeah, And it's 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: not to single out the Romans as the only empire 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: that caused extinctions, but there are some pretty interesting examples 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: from that time period. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about not just extinctions, but we're gonna 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: be talking about Roman extinctions, extinctions that occurred during the 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: time of the Roman Republic, but especially the Roman Empire. 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: That sounds like one of those names for like a 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: made up lewd act, the Roman Extinction. Roman Extinctions made 20 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: maybe so good band names certainly so, Robert. I know 21 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about this because of some weird, 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: uh maybe false memory you had that you were trying 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: to explain to me yesterday. But it seems like a 24 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: very apt topic, whatever the inspiration, because of course, all 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: decadent empires place large stresses on the environment around them 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: about so you would expect the you know, one of 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: the great decadent empires of history would do the same. Yeah. 28 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: So I think, well, one of the important things to 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: keep in mind throughout this topic is, like, we're not 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: we're certainly not meaning to single the Romans out as 31 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: being like the like the the the soul examples of 32 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: some of these activities that led to uh, to some extinctions, um, 33 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: because ultimately you can look to very parts of the 34 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: world in various times, including our own, to see plenty 35 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: of extinction inducing activities. But I think it's an interesting 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: exercise to sort of look to to look at Rome, 37 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: which which would have been I think, in many ways 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: sort of uh, an intensification of of impulses that were 39 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: already present in other cultures. So to to get started, 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: let's just remind everybody who the Romans were. I'm not 41 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: sure that one of the Romans ever done for us. Yeah, 42 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: I mean, well, speaking of that, yeah, you know, I 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: don't for reasons like that, I think that we don't 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: really need like a full introduction. I think pretty much 45 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: everybody has some idea of who the Romans were and 46 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: what the Roman Empire was about. I mean, just the 47 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: basic tropes um of of the Roman Empire a pretty 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: uh you know, ubiquitous in our culture. Um. Look to, 49 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: for instance, to Monty Python's Life of Brian, which you 50 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: just quoted, which by the way, has been singled out 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: for being actually quite historically accurate concernment concerning life in 52 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: Roman occupied first century Judea. Yeah, I've read that before. 53 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: A lot of historians that it's more accurate than a 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: lot of serious movies, right, yeah, because you know, a 55 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: lot of de pictions of Rome, they really especially the 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: older cinematic interpretations, but even like more modern films that 57 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: were influenced by those older interpretations, you just get like 58 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: the stoic, colorless, very British vision of Rome generally not 59 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: a lot of like street level understanding. Um. But but but 60 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that HBO's Rome series, it 61 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: was on for several years um, you know, which isn't perfect, 62 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: but certainly had some admirers because of the way that 63 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: it injected a lot of of color and and and 64 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: life off in like street level life into this time 65 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: in this place. I've also read that Kubrick spartacus Is 66 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: is more accurate than a lot of the films that 67 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: that you would have encountered in the nineteen sixties regarding 68 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: the Romans, but of course still has a number of 69 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: problems as well. I mainly just remember Joe Panaliono in 70 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: the sub Pranos being mad at it because Kirk Douglas 71 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: has a flat top and he's like, they didn't have 72 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: flat tops in ancient Rome. Um. But by the way, 73 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: I I always enjoyed the Ancient Roman detective novels of 74 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: Gordianus The Finder by Stephen saler Um. I highly recommend 75 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: those to anybody there to be clear contemporary novels set 76 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: in ancient Rome. Anyway, we're in short, we're talking about 77 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: an empire centered in Rome, established in twenty seven b 78 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: C after the collapse of the Roman Republic, which was 79 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: founded in five oh nine BC, and eventually grew grew 80 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: rather rather sizeable and actually rather difficult to manage due 81 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: to its size, stretching across Europe, the Balkans, the Middle East, 82 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: and North Africa. It's the classic risk problem. You over 83 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: extend your armies, you go out too far, you think 84 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: you can hold all of Asia and get those whatever, 85 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, fifty men at the end of each turn, 86 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: that is to overextend. Yeah, it's the problem you see 87 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: in every empire without fail and uh. And since they 88 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: were an empire, they were of course built on military 89 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: conquest in domination of other lands. And and to be fair, 90 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: the characters in Monty Python are mostly correct in their 91 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: list of the quote unquote good things that the Romans 92 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: have done for us. Um. You know, we've we've we 93 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: talk a lot, especially on our other podcast, Invention, about 94 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: various Roman innovations. Roman technologies talked about sewers and toilets, 95 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: sewers and toilets, But of course they didn't risk bring 96 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 1: sewers and toilets. They all in Rhods. They also brought 97 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: death and bloodshed. They depended on slave labor and uh, 98 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: we can at least lay some of the hollow scene 99 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: extinctions at their sandaled feet. So that's what we're gonna 100 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: focus on today. And uh, and just fair warning that 101 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: we will be talking in places about the Romans trade 102 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: and exotic animals and their harsh treatment of these animals 103 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: in the in the arenas and in the Colosseum, and 104 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: this is all bloody and depressing stuff, cruelty to animals 105 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: on a massive scale, So just you know, sort of 106 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: fair warning on that, and uh, and just a reminder 107 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: for information on how to report cruelty to animals today 108 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: in the United States, please visit the American Society for 109 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals at a spc A 110 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: dot org or search for Report Animal Abuse a s 111 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: p c A. That being said, let's move on to 112 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: the extinctions. Okay, let's hear about it. So one of 113 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: the articles that we were looking at and preparing for 114 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: this episode is an excellent two thousand and sixteen Atlantic 115 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: article titled the Exotic Animal Traffickers of Ancient Rome by 116 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: Caroline Wazer and the it she points out that bloody 117 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: animal spectacles were an important part of Roman culture, Like 118 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't just you know, something that was 119 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: also going on. It's not like say, pointing to today's 120 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: culture and saying like, uh, look at look at the 121 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: popularity of say, mixed martial arts. It's central to the 122 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: American experience. I don't know, you can maybe make that argument, 123 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: but it's not just a thing in the culture. It's 124 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: like an integral part of the culture. Maybe you're saying 125 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: like you can't really understand the culture without it. Yes, yeah, 126 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: and I believe that's the point. She's a king. Um So, 127 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: I think most of us are familiar more familiar with 128 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: human on human gladiator sports, which we've we've touched on 129 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: on this show before and if it's in you know, 130 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: any things in large part of Ridley Scott's Gladiator in 131 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: modern times, but so many different treatments of gladiatorial combat 132 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: have been rolled out in our media. But it wasn't 133 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: just human on human violence. You also had daminatio at best. 134 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: It's my Latin correct on that, Joe. It looks like 135 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: dumb natio a beast. I mean, I'm not an expert either, okay, 136 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: but dumb natio right like damn nation. Well anyway, it 137 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: stands for execution by beasts. And then there were the 138 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: venatitiones or the hunts, in which animals were condemned to 139 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: die either at the hands of human hunters um and 140 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: sometimes like just we're talking like just a brutal display 141 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: of like a hunter dispatching all sorts of exotic animals 142 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: out there on the field, or they would have animals 143 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: battle each other all for sport. And sadly, these uh, 144 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: these blood sports have been a part of human civilization 145 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: for quite a while, and though thankfully outlawed in most places, 146 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: but still, cock fighting remains legal in parts of the world, 147 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: as does dog fighting. Sports like bear baiting and lion 148 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: baiting continued depressingly far into modern times, at least in 149 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: some parts of the world, and bullfighting remains legal and 150 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: parts of the world as well, uh, namely Spain and Portugal. 151 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: I would say it's not quite the same because it 152 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: doesn't involve vertebrates. But I mean even the bug fights 153 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: thing on the internet. I'm sure you've seen that. We're 154 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: like crickets or beatles are made to combat each other, 155 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: or centipedes or spiders. I mean, it's just basically, you 156 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: put two kind of scary looking bugs into a container 157 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: together and then shake it and try to make them fight. Yeah, 158 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: it's uh, I don't know what exactly that impulses. I mean, 159 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: there's a part of it. I guess I understand because 160 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: I remember when I was a kid, I would very 161 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: often want to ask adults questions like what would win 162 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: in a fight between a tarantula and a score be 163 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: in and like as if I thought that, like, adults 164 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: just know these things. You know that, Yeah, you're grown up, 165 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: you know which one would win. Well, there is kind 166 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: of like a need, there's an human necessity to to 167 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: rank and profile the creatures of the natural world. And 168 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: you still see this kind of thing in like kids 169 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: books today, Like my son has a book, uh like 170 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: who would Win? And and it's it's about prehistoric creatures 171 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: and dinosaurs, uh, and all good educational information, but it's 172 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: delivered uh with the wrappings of this creature versus this creature. 173 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 1: So I was not alone in this childhood curiosity. No, 174 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: I think it's I mean, I think there's something you know, 175 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: normal and healthy in it. I mean, I mean, look 176 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: at nature documentaries, uh, which can be quite uncomfortable to 177 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: watch at times when you have a predator and prey 178 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: battling each other. But of course one of the key 179 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: differences here is that these are natural occurrences or they 180 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: better damn well, be natural occurrences in a nature documentary, 181 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: and they're not something that has been orchestrated through cruelty 182 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: by humans looking for entertainment. Right. Putting animals into the 183 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: Roman arenas kind of the equivalent of the bug fight 184 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: like you put him in the box and shake it 185 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: and try to get him fighting, right. So I think 186 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: this is though, an example of where you know, if 187 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: you know the Roman cruelty to animals via blood sport, 188 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: it's it's an outsized and more sensational example of something 189 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: that occurs in other cultures and in other times. It's 190 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: not an excuse for any of this, but again it's 191 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 1: important to ground such activities in the larger picture of 192 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: human awfulness. But ways are actually opens her article with 193 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: a discussion of a Roman orator m. Marcus Cicero in 194 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: his correspondences with a former illegal client, a man by 195 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: the name of Marcus Calias. This is while Cicero was 196 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: governor of Cilicia in modern day Turkey. So basically um 197 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: Calias just continued to hound Cicero about how he needs 198 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: him to have some hunters capture and send back some 199 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: local leopards, which they refer to a Greek panthers because 200 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: he needs because he's He's like, you gotta give these 201 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: to me, Cistero. I've got to throw him in the arena. 202 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: The people love this, and I'm trying to kick start 203 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: my political career here, come on, don't let me down. 204 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: And it's just it's like multiple correspondences where he's just 205 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: really hounding Cistero over this, and Cistero keeps dodging him 206 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: on the matter and saying, well, look, the the you know, 207 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,599 Speaker 1: the local hunters are busy, you know, etcetera. That's that 208 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: sort of thing. It's like, can you get Mick Jagger 209 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: to come to my party? Yeah, I mean it is. 210 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: It's like, imagine if instead of when you see an 211 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: individual running for political office today, instead of it being 212 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: a situation of them trying to score saying Neil Young 213 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: or you know, the guzzlers to play their event, if 214 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,239 Speaker 1: instead you were trying to procure exotic animals to massacure 215 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: each other in a public arena. But it speaks to 216 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: how important this was to at least a large segment 217 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: of the population. And so this is something that would 218 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: have been practiced in uh, you know, in the Roman Republic. 219 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: But but then reached you know, new heights in the 220 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: Roman Empire. But it but it also is important to 221 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: know that like, not everybody was completely on board with this. Uh. 222 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: Wayser shares descriptions by by Cicero that describe it as 223 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: being you know, barbaric and unnecessary and uh. And there 224 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: are also some descriptions by a plenty of the Elder 225 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: as well, which I think we can we can trust 226 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: him a little bit more here because he's dealing with 227 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: domestic matters and not mysterious species that he has no 228 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: firsthand knowledge of. But the plenty you will get vindicated 229 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: a little bit later on in this episode two. But 230 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: but in this case, Wayser points out things that they 231 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: were both writing about how Pompey the Great organized a 232 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: series of spectacles. Um. But but what like the main 233 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: event essentially was a great elephant hunt in the arena. 234 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: And it's interesting interesting in the in the accounts that 235 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: showed that that while individuals like Cicero viewed these shows 236 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: as bloody and cruel, the crowds generally loved it. But 237 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: the elephant hunt was even too much for the masses. 238 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: And here's the quote from Cicero, obviously translated that She's 239 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: shares quote the last day was that of the elephants, 240 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: on which there was a great deal of astonishment on 241 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: the part of the vulgar crowd, but no pleasure whatever. Nay, 242 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: there was even a certain feeling of compassion aroused by it, 243 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: and a kind of belief created that the animal has 244 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: something in common with mankind. Yet they kept watching. Huh, well, yeah, 245 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: they kept watching, and but apparently felt awful about it, 246 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: and there was you know, some some booze and whatnot. 247 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: And of course this didn't prevent later elephant spectacles from 248 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: taking place, and and ultimately indeed, like the continued trafficking 249 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: of exotic animals is the focus of Weser's article. Uh 250 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: that there was this booming industry for folks who would 251 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: arrange the capture of exotic wild animals, generally from the 252 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: extremes of the Empire, and then transport them back to 253 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: Rome to fight in the arena. So it was a 254 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: cruel business, but enthusiasm, the enthusiasm for the spectacles in 255 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: the arena also also bubbled over into enthusiasm for the 256 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: details of the actual hunts and the tactics that procured them, 257 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: and this is reflected both in the literature of the 258 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: day and also in the art of the Roman Empire, 259 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: where you see murals and whatnot depicting individuals hunting these 260 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: wild animals so they could bring them back, and that 261 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: that the wildness of it was something that the Romans 262 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: seemed to crave, if she points out, because the uh 263 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: there there weren't there weren't really that many attempts to 264 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: try and raise them in captivity. They had to be 265 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: captured and brought back to Rome as part of the appeal. 266 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: I wonder if the idea about the methods used in 267 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: hunting them, does that show up later in the sort 268 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: of styles of gladiators that appear in the arena, because 269 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: I know, we have like the there was the style 270 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: of gladiator that's modeled after the fisherman, you know that 271 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: has like the trident and the net and all that. 272 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: So there are certain styles that seem to be based 273 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: on on like the armies of opposing nations, or or 274 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: on professions like fishing. I wondered also if that the 275 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: hunting methods that they talked about, what these animals can 276 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: tributed there? Uh yeah, I mean it might very well 277 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: be the case. So she doesn't get into that in 278 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: this paper, and I didn't see it mentioned in some 279 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: of the other more animal focused sources I was looking 280 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: at here. But you know, obviously the gladiatorial tropes that 281 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: they used in the arena, they were all, you know, 282 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: based on existing things, you know, to be it be 283 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: it a fisherman or a uh, you know, a soldier 284 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: or you know, some sort of animal component that was 285 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: going to be echoed in the design. So let's come 286 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: back to the elephants though, because I think because so far, 287 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: that's been the most alarming, um, you know, obscenity that 288 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: we've looked at here on the part of the Romans. Yeah, 289 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: it's interesting that passage that you read from Cicero where 290 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: you know, he's describing the crowds feeling sympathy for the 291 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: elephants while they watch this brutality being done to them. 292 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if there's more of that kind 293 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: of thing going on in the appetites of the Roman 294 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,479 Speaker 1: Arena audiences than we would normally imagine, like we imagine 295 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: the audiences of the editorial games and all this kind 296 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: of stuff just being you know, bloodthirsty, like, yeah, they 297 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: want the fight, they want the violence, and and they 298 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: love it and they're eating it up. I wonder if 299 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: there was some element of the audience that I don't know, 300 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: it's something more equivalent to to the kind of like 301 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: hate watching or the hate clicking kind of thing that 302 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: people do now, like where you know, people are constantly 303 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: clicking on things on the Internet that they know we're 304 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: going to make them unhappy. You know, you just reliably 305 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: know if I click this link, I'm gonna feel bad 306 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna like what I read, but I 307 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: click it anyway. You know, I wonder where people going 308 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: to the arena, like, I know, I'm gonna feel bad, 309 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: but I have to look at this, you know, that 310 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: would be might be worth while to come back and 311 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: explore that in greater detail, like the nature of these 312 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: gladiatorial blood sport events um which we should stress are 313 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: generally there were a lot more varied, uncomplicated than uh 314 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: it is often relayed in fular media, but still we're violent, blood, 315 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: blood thirsty events. You know, what, what was the psychology 316 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: of that? And then how much of that psychology still 317 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: remains in the fandom of various you know, high impact 318 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: sporting events or you know, actual mixed martial arts or 319 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: other martial arts contests or even simulated um athletic contests 320 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: such as professional wrestling. I don't know, I have to 321 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: come back to that, I think. But one thing the 322 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: ways are also points out is you know that like 323 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: there were there their artistic uh renditions of say big 324 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: cats that were used in some of these events, and 325 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: they would be given names in the art and they 326 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: would be kind of there, like some of the iconography 327 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: would be akin to that that would you be used 328 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: for human gladiators. So yeah, it gets it gets sticky. 329 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: And and then I mean just thinking about the elephants 330 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: and the obvious connection, like the obvious intelligence that is 331 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: there in the elephant, and the sympathy that one feels 332 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: like this, uh, this kind of connection like has existed 333 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: throughout I think our our experiences with elephants, and yet 334 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: cruelty to elephants continues to this day. Uh and um, 335 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: you know had certainly continued on through the you know, 336 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: the history of circuses around the world. So um, yeah, 337 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean our relationship with animals is always complicated, even 338 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: when we have you know, sympathy actually activated for them. Well, 339 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: I know you wanted to explore more about the Romans 340 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: and the elephants. Yeah, so I I found a book 341 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: titled Elephant Destiny, Biography of an Endangered Species in Africa 342 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: by Martin Meredith. And in this the author details the 343 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: slaughter in the Roman arenas in general in the in 344 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: the opening of Pompei's Games in the b C. And 345 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: he mentions that no fewer than six hundred lions were massacured. 346 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: Just to give everyone an idea of the scale of bloodshed. Here, 347 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: six hundred lions. Can you imagine, I mean a lion 348 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: is a lion as an apex predator, so there already 349 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: aren't that many of them. And to remove six hundred 350 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: lions from their habitat, Yeah, to essentially like basically put 351 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: out the call and say, look, Pompey the Great knees lions. 352 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: So everybody that is in the in the business of 353 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 1: catching lions or could conceivably catch a lion, get out 354 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,239 Speaker 1: there and start catching lions. Essentially, uh and and this 355 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: but this one meant just before the elephant event described previously, 356 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: So what elephants were they catching? Well, the author here 357 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: points out that the North African elephant was was the 358 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: likely species, as these were the elephants used by the 359 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: forces of Hannibals, Carthagian army, the African bush elephant that 360 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: is still around. Um that this one is too wild 361 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: to to ride around or to really tame in the 362 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: same way that one uses uh, the Asian elephant and 363 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: uh and and not to just you know, to a 364 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: single out Carthage. Other groups used the North African elephant 365 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: for labor in war as well, but any by following 366 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: hannibals defeat, the region fell under Roman control, and the 367 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: Romans used these elephants in their bloody sports as well 368 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: as in attractions that really have more in common with 369 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: the sort of circus work that we see uh, you know, 370 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: throughout even like the twentieth century. And then that includes 371 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: things like tight rope walking here, yeah, they single he 372 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: singles that out in the book. But here's a quote 373 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: that touches on the additional levels of exploitation that could 374 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: become employed. Quote. Rome's liking for elephants meant that the 375 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: North African herds faced constant raids, But even more perilous 376 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: was the insatiable Roman demand for ivory. Ivory was used 377 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: to decorate temples and palaces, carried in triumphal processions and 378 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: made into a vast range of luxury goods, thrones, chess statues, chairs, beds, 379 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: book covers, tablets, boxes, bird cages, combs, and broches. Caesar 380 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: wrote in an ivory Chariot Seneca possessed five hundred tripod 381 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: tables with ivory legs. Do you need that many tables 382 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: for large events? Large scale events? I guess Caligula gave 383 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: his horse an ivory stable. Wow, I'm glad we got 384 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: Caligula in there. I wasn't sure we were can actually 385 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: uh be able to make room for him. So that 386 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: being said, some of the ivory came from India and Ethiopia, 387 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: but North Africa suffered the most, and in seventies seven CE, 388 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: plenty of the Elder Road about the shortage of African 389 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: ivory quote an ample supply of ivory is now rarely 390 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: obtained except from India, the demands of luxury having exhausted 391 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: all those in our part of the world. And of course, 392 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: um the ivory trade still remains a threat to elephant populations, 393 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: despite laws and the hard work of of conservationist worldwide. 394 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: And if you want more information about what's going on 395 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: and what can be done, I recommend everyone check out 396 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: stop ivory dot org for more information. Okay, but what 397 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: was the ultimate effect on the elephant populations? Do we 398 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: know if the Roman exploitation of these animals did it 399 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: Did it damage their populations, did it drive mixtincts? The 400 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: general consensus is that it it definitely drove their extinction. 401 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: They either died out during the fifth century or at 402 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: least were well on their way to extinction. But the 403 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: damage was done during the Roman imperial period, So it 404 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily that we know that the Romans like hunted 405 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: down the very last of the North African elephants, but 406 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: they may whatever they did to them damaged their populations 407 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: enough and all that that we think it strongly contributed 408 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: to their decline, right, And that's something we're going to 409 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: see in some of these other examples we bring We 410 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: bring out as well, is that there are other cases 411 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: where it's certainly not in a situation where the Romans 412 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: just went out and had killed or had killed all 413 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: members of a species, but they you know, they had 414 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: the power, through their their appetites, through their their economic demands, 415 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: to actually like do this much damage to the environment. Again, 416 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: with the Roman An empire. Everything that was already present 417 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: in human of civilization was there, only maybe ramped up 418 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: a little bit. Uh so their destructive tendencies, you know, 419 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: had a little more reach than you might find in 420 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: other civilizations. And of course the same thing can be 421 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: said for today. They are various human appetites and our 422 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,479 Speaker 1: various wants and desires and our uses for the natural 423 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: world that uh, at the scale we're doing things now 424 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 1: are even more destructive than they ever were. Yeah, it's 425 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: a sad fact. And that's going to come up again, 426 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: and some of the other stuff I've got here. It's 427 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: it's sometimes striking how similar the patterns of civilization level 428 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: activity are between things that we do today and the 429 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: things the Romans did to exploit their environment. Yeah, all right, Well, 430 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: on that note, let's go and take a quick break, 431 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're going to continue to 432 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: discuss Roman extinctions. All right, we're back. So, so, Joe, 433 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: what what is the next organism we're going to discuss 434 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: here that was made to to fight glad he years 435 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: in the arena? Well, uh, it's not. This next one 436 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: is a plant. But this is going to be one 437 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: of the main examples that people often bring up as 438 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: something that was likely driven to extinction by the Roman Empire. 439 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: So my main source here is an article from Conservation 440 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: Biology from two thousand three by Ken Peregeco called plenty 441 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: of the elders Sylphium first recorded species extinction. Now the 442 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: author Ken perege COO. I looked him up. He was 443 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: a professor of biology at the University of Wisconsin Stout. 444 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: I think he's retired now. But in this essay, the 445 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: author asked the question, how do we know when a 446 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: species has gone extinct? In the words of E. O. Wilson, quote, 447 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: extinction is the most obscure and local of all biological processes. 448 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: It took me for a second, and then I realized, Oh, yeah, 449 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: I guess that must be true. Whenever the last ones disappear, 450 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: it's always kind of a local and isolated phenomenon. I mean, 451 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: like a lot of these cases, it's it's looking to 452 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: when was the last recorded like dependable and recorded sighting 453 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: or killing of a particular organism. Yeah, and so the 454 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: author writes, quote, the question of how many species extinctions 455 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: have gone unnoticed in human history is unanswerable, Yet the 456 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: past may shed light on the present. On what in 457 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: our behavior has changed and what hasn't. So he starts 458 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: off by talking about our old friend Plenty of the Elder. 459 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: Now remember, of course, so we know the timing. The 460 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: Plenty of the Elder's natural history was first published around 461 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: seventy and so Plenty in one section of his natural 462 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: history dives into an ex explanation of a sort of 463 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: miracle plant that he calls silphium. The plant is described 464 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: as having plentiful kind of stubby, thick roots, a finnel 465 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: like stalk blade like leaves that resemble parsley, and then 466 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: at the top the stalks have an umbell. When an 467 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: umbell is a a cluster of short flower stalks all 468 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: clumped together, so that the flowers kind of resemble a parasol. 469 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: You've probably seen plants like this. Robert got sort of 470 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: a little dome of little flowers all clustered together, so 471 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: the Romans called it sylfium. It was also known as 472 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: silphion by the Greeks, as well as laser wart uh 473 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: and laser pithecum uh and and from this plant, apparently 474 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: you can create a resin that is called laser l 475 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: A s e R. It might be pronounced losser. I 476 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: don't know, but I'm gonna say laser. So this resin 477 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: called laser. Plenty describes it quote as among the most 478 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: precious gifts presented to us by nature. And you could 479 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: get this resin by making slits in the roots and 480 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: the stem of the plants so that it's juices and 481 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: its sap would leach out, and then those juices and 482 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: the sap would be dried into a resin to produce laser. 483 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: Plenty cites a Greek author, probably the philosopher Theophrastus, who 484 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: is a student of Lato and Aristotle's on the origins 485 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: of the plant, and the Greek author claims that the 486 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: plant was discovered in the seventh century b c. After 487 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: a black rain fell upon the gardens in a region 488 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: of north North Africa known as syen Aca, which is 489 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: now Libya. Pareto writes, quote, it grew most profusely in 490 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: a region of that country known as the Sylphio Ferra, 491 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: near the Gulf of Syrtus. There where the plateaus along 492 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: the Mediterranean coast rise as tiered highlands that received considerably 493 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: more rainfall than the deserts to the south. Sylfium thrived 494 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: in a region of hilly and forested meadows. So we're 495 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: almost getting this picture of this pristine, you know, lush 496 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: little area with a desert to the south, the coast 497 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: to the north that has all these little plants with 498 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: the fenel like stalks and the parsley leaves and the 499 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: umbell of of flowers near the top. And in ancient times, 500 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: sylfium had a number of uses that recommended it to 501 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: plenty as a kind of miracle plant. And among these 502 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: uses document ended by Peregco number one. It was fed 503 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: to livestock like cattle and sheep under the idea that 504 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: it gave their meat a special desirable flavor. So you 505 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: really wanted you wanted your mutton to be fed on 506 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: sylfium tasted way better. Apparently, the plant parts could also 507 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: just be cooked and you know, used in cooking, like 508 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: the stalk could be used, or the resin could be used. 509 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: It was also used medically as a laxative, you know, 510 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: so for fast effective relief you go with sylfium. But 511 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: the concentrated resin called laser, which was which was made 512 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: from the plant, was considered even more useful. It could 513 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: supposedly treat fevers and coughs and warts. It was believed 514 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: to be a pain reliever and a hair restoration tonic, 515 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: and apparently, as I mentioned, it was sometimes just also 516 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: used in cooking. And there's also another huge use for 517 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: this plant, which was that it was apparently believed to 518 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: be a contraceptive and a board efficient, and so the 519 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: juice or resin would be applied to a piece of 520 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: wool and then used as a vaginal suppository as a 521 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: contraceptive or a board deficient, and contraceptives and a board 522 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: officians were highly desirable in ancient room. They were largely 523 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: sought sought after for of course, many of the same 524 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: reasons that they have been throughout all of history. So 525 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: apparently a laser was in such demand that there was 526 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: a widely acknowledged problem of unscrupulous merchants selling low quality, 527 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: adulterated laser. You cut that laser, buddy. You know. It's 528 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: like the scene in the movie where the guy gets 529 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: in trouble for for cutting the coke with baby powder 530 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: or something. You know, this is this is cutting the laser, 531 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: maybe with with assa fatida or something like that. So 532 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: Peregco notes that within Gaias Petronius first century CE fictional 533 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: work known as the Satiricon. There's a scene where an 534 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: Egyptian slave sings a song from what is apparently a 535 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: well known contemporary musical farce, and this musical force of 536 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: the day is called the laser dealer. So you get 537 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: a sense that the laser dealer of ancient Rome, the 538 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: ancient Roman Empire might have had a reputation sort of 539 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: like the used car salesman of today who's trying to 540 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: give you, you know, get you to buy, to pay 541 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: too much for something that's not worth what you think 542 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: it is, Okay, because I mean, ultimately we're not talking 543 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: this was not FDA approved. There was not no like 544 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: a system you were you were going to you know, 545 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: essentially an apothecary or just somebody who had a supply 546 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: or claim to have a supply of the the the 547 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: the the laser that you needed. And yeah, if you 548 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: didn't trust them, if if they were a little sketchy, 549 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: they might be cutting the product or selling something else, 550 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: you know that they're calling laser. And think about what 551 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: people were using this product for. I mean, it's something 552 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: that if you you got something that was an inferior 553 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: product that didn't work as well as you thought it would, 554 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: you might be facing serious consequences. And so here's the 555 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: weird fact. We don't know for sure what plant species 556 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: Plenty was talking about. It was this hugely important, commercially 557 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: important plant, and we don't know for sure what it was. 558 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: There is a plant genus in North America called Sylfium, 559 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: but it's apparently not related. An author named Rackham in 560 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty suggested that plenties Sylfium might have been the 561 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: species called Ferula tingatana or Farolla marmarica, which are North 562 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: African plants that still exist today. Or of course it 563 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: could be an extinct relative of these, but that's just 564 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: rackham suggestion. It's widely believed that the Roman Empire may 565 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: very well have driven this miracle plant to extinction, So 566 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: how would that be Well. Already in his day, Plenty 567 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: complaints that you can't really get sylfium anymore. He notes 568 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: that in the year forty nine BC, Julius Caesar ordered 569 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: the stockpiling of fifteen hundred pounds of lasers just the 570 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: resin in the Royal treasury, but by Plenty's own lifetime. 571 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: Remember Plenty, this is published in seventy seven CES, so 572 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: would have been just about a hundred years later in 573 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: Plenty's lifetime. By this time, the plant had vanished in 574 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: its natural range, and the last known stock of it 575 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: quote being valued at its weight in gold and sent 576 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: to the Emperor Nero. And I'm you know, I'm sure 577 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 1: Nero did something awesome with So what's the reason for 578 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: this decline and disappearance of sylfium? Well, Plenty says that number. 579 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: The main explanation Plenty gives is quote tax farmers who 580 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: rent the pasturage and strip it clean by grazing sheep 581 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: on it, realizing that they make more profit in that way. 582 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: And to be honest, I'm not positive I understand what 583 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: plenties saying there what that means, but I think possibly 584 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: it refers to the fact that meat from the live 585 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: stock that's fed on sylfium got a much higher price 586 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: because it was believed to taste better, so you could 587 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: get more money for the you know, upgraded meat. But 588 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: this is you know, this decimating your sylfium fields, Okay, 589 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: I said in a in a way like they're just 590 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: multiple demands on the product because it was used for 591 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: so many things, including people who just want to graze 592 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: their animals on it and produce superior meat. But it 593 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: all comes down to like to demand for the various products, 594 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: direct products or products that depend upon the sylfium, and 595 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: there were limited habitats in which sylfium would grow. So 596 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: Peregiko also offers some other thoughts about what what could 597 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: have contributed to the decline of sylfium uh and a 598 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: chief concern he raises his habitat destruction. He says that 599 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: a very popular wood for Roman furniture came from the 600 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: Thuon tree, which filled the forests of Synaica, and over 601 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: harvesting of this would possibly lead to deforestation of the 602 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: area that is now Libya, and in turn this led 603 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: to soil erosion. So without tree roots to hold the 604 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: soil in place, you know the soil of roads in 605 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: rainfall or in the wind or in anything um which 606 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: destroyed the sylfium's natural habitat and the hilly meadows near 607 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: the coast. So there you've got a couple of unsustainable 608 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: practices coming together to conspire for the demise of this plan. 609 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: He also points to unsustainable farming practices in the region 610 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: which were aimed at short term profits but which came 611 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: at the long term expensive soil quality. Also, he says 612 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: there are historical records of political conflict over sylfium in 613 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: Syrenaica um so in the region. In this region during 614 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, they were like there were native tenant 615 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: farmers and then the rich Roman landlords. And as sylfium 616 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: became scarce, the Romans tried to put tight control on 617 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: the production by saying only they could farm it on 618 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: their lands, and they put fences up around the meadows 619 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: where the sylphium grew in order to keep the locals out. 620 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: But Perejko writes, quote the natives practiced to kind of 621 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: a grarian terrorism by tearing down the fences and letting 622 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: their flocks graze on the sylfium to increase the value 623 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: of the sheep's mutton. And then also apparently sometimes they 624 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: would just go into the fields in the night and 625 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: just upper the plants, just pull them up by the roots, 626 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: kind of as a middle finger to the Roman overlords 627 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: Romans go home. Another thing that's a possible explanation here, 628 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: apparently the Romans were obsessed with garlic. Oh well we 629 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 1: still have that. Well, yeah, and I don't often side 630 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: with the Romans, but I cannot fault them there. Garlic 631 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: is great, Yeah, I mean garlic not only is it 632 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: a wonderful culinary ingredient, but I mean it has a 633 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: number of different medicinal uses. And you know in in 634 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: herbal traditions, Um is that antimicrobial property? Yeah? Um yeah, yeah, absolutely, 635 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: And so Pereshiko writes, quote garlic was such a popular 636 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: plant with the Roman army that it was said one 637 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: could follow the advance of the Roman legions and expansion 638 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: of the empire by plotting range maps for garlic. Uh. 639 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: So the Romans and Cyrenaica also apparently destroyed some sylfium 640 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: habitats so they could plant garlic locally. Uh. And so 641 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: the question is did sylfium fully go extend in the 642 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: first century CE or not. Some scholars have argued that 643 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: sylfium was cultivated at least until a few hundred years 644 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: later in the fifth century, because there are references to 645 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: it in some later writings, like people have you know, 646 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: writing letters in the fifth century CEE talking about having 647 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: sylfium plants. But these references could very well be to 648 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: what what Peregco calls pseudo Sylfium's other plants that were 649 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: incorrectly identified as sylfium and had been for a long time, 650 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: or also for a long time had been combined with 651 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: laser resin to adulterate it, or had simply been sold 652 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: as fake sylfium by yet another unscrupulous laser dealer. Yeah, 653 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, this is something I was reading about recently, 654 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: and another book about just you know, as his ancient 655 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: people's moved around, there might be a traditional plant that 656 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: they depended upon, and as they move out of its range. Uh. 657 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: And sometimes you know, take it with them to some extent, 658 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: but then lose it. They have to find new substances 659 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: that will fulfill at least some of the properties, or 660 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: they hope will fulfill some of the properties. And sometimes 661 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: you just give it the same name or you know, 662 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: or a similar name exactly. Uh. And you know, and 663 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: not all plants can follow you outside of I mean, 664 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: some plants are very particular about their native range and 665 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: and can't be really grown outside it very well. And 666 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: it does appear sylfium as one of those. But in 667 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: the first centuries, see other plants and spices were being 668 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: recommended as a substitute for sylfium, like petco sites a 669 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: Roman cookbook from around twenty CE that recommends assa fatida 670 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: as a substitute for laser and recipes, presumably because real 671 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: laser was already really expensive or hard to get. So ultimately, 672 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure whether or not the species 673 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: Plenty is talking about actually when extinct, but it seems 674 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: pretty likely it's got a limited natural range, subject to 675 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: habitat destruction and over exploitation, as well as intentional destruction. Uh. 676 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: And the author ends by saying, either way, it's interesting 677 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: and sad to see the exact act patterns of human 678 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: behavior leading to extinction of plant and animal species today 679 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: have been with us for thousands of years. I mean, 680 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: this almost reads like a like a parody of you know, 681 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: modern stories about how we we overexploited certain plants and animals. 682 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely well, on that note, we're gonna take a quick break, 683 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're going to discuss a 684 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: few more Roman extinctions, or at least, in some of 685 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: these cases, extinctions that were greatly contributed to by the 686 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: Roman Empire. Alright, we're back, Okay. Can we talk about bears? Yes, 687 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: let's talk about bears. The Atlas bear is by some estimates. 688 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: A notable victim of Roman civilization and the civilizations that 689 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: followed in the wake of the Roman Empire. Uh. These 690 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 1: were the Brown Bears of northern Africa, and their extinction 691 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: can at least be partially attributed to the Romans, though 692 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: we have to stress here it didn't truly go extinct 693 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: in the wildland, the wild to the late nineteenth century, 694 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: so sometime later to be sure. But so we're saying 695 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: that maybe the Romans did stuff to contain its range 696 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: or something like that, yeah, or certainly really kick started 697 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: the tradition of of exploitation uh and and habitat destruction 698 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: that would reach you know, its final form uh in 699 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. Uh. So, basically what happens is when 700 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: the Romans expanded into the Atlas Mountains of modern day Morocco, 701 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: the bears were hunted for sport and they were captured 702 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: for transport back to the Arenas in Rome as well. 703 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: So we're talking thousands and thousands of them again, you know, 704 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: when we're talking about the the trade and exotic animals, 705 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 1: it's not just like a few a few individuals here 706 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 1: and there catching a few curious creatures and sending them 707 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: back you know, I think it's easy to fall back on. Uh. 708 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: You know, certainly a lot of this took place during 709 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: you know, the time of European colonialism as well. Um, 710 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 1: but uh, a lot of times it brings to mind 711 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: pictures of sale the hold of a ship with a 712 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: few different animals in it or something like that. But no, 713 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: we're talking like tons and tons of creatures here. Um, thousands, 714 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of bears. I mean, it's not like 715 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: they're all that many bears to begin with, right, Yeah, 716 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: and uh, and so the initial depleting of their numbers 717 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: put them in a terrible position for a centuries of 718 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: habitat loss and deforestation to follow, and also continued hunting, 719 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: which was ultimately bolstered by the development of modern firearms. 720 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: And apparently when you look at the like the the 721 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: the last known sightings of these animals, they pretty much 722 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: line up with modern firearms being available, so that that 723 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: just pushing the hunting over the edge. Um. This made 724 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: me think a little though about bears and human extinction. Uh. 725 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: It was once theorized that prehistoric cave bears were hunted 726 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: into extinction by humans, but it doesn't seem to be 727 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 1: that this was actually the case, or at least this 728 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: is not the predominant theory. Now. Uh. You know, these 729 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: were largely herbivorous creatures and they might have just been 730 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: too much for ancient humans to really tackle on a 731 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: regular basis, and human numbers might not have been sufficient 732 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: to pull off that kind of extinction at the time, 733 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 1: So we can't lay their extinction entirely at human feet. 734 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: I'd love to come back and discuss cave bears or 735 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: or other prehistoric bearers like the short faced bear in 736 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,439 Speaker 1: the future, but it is interesting to sort of think 737 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: of that in terms of the scaling up of human activities, Like, 738 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,240 Speaker 1: you know, there were there were times there were certainly 739 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,919 Speaker 1: there were certainly animals that you know that that that 740 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 1: that early humans contributed to their to the extinction of uh, 741 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, no doubt about it. But if if, if 742 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,280 Speaker 1: populations are smaller, uh, there's less that can be done 743 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: towards pushing an animal's extinction. Right now, another animal creature 744 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: you might not expect to show up on this list 745 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: is the ostrich because you know, it doesn't seem like 746 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: a knack roll creature that would be out there in 747 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,280 Speaker 1: the Roman arena, right, But the ostrich were talking about 748 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: about here is not the common ostrich that you're probably 749 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: thinking of, and that you would you can see it 750 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 1: most zoos and window and what have you. Well, I 751 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: mean I was thinking when you said this, okay, there 752 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: are some large birds I can't imagine in the arena. 753 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: I was thinking about the cassowary. Oh yeah, well, and 754 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: that is the scariest feed of anything I've ever seen. Well, yes, 755 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: and ostriches can be quite terrifying close up, for sure, 756 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: and they can and they are dangerous animals. But but 757 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: I have to admit it wasn't like the first thing 758 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: I thought about as being something that there would have 759 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: you know, really suffered due to the pressure of Roman appetite. 760 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: But what we're talking about here is not the common ostrich, 761 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: but the Arabian Ostrich or the Syrian ostrich, also known 762 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: as the Middle Eastern ostrich, and it lived in the 763 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: Near and Middle East, as opposed to the common ostriche 764 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: of Africa that we still know today now. To be sure, 765 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: the Arabian Ostrichs suffered under humans for quite a while. 766 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: They're mentioned in other ancient texts. They're even mentioned in 767 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: the Bible, and given that they are giant birds. You know, 768 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,240 Speaker 1: they're they've always been something of a curiosity for humans. 769 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: And then you see this as far east as China 770 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,959 Speaker 1: where specimens were taken for display, but the Romans were 771 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: were also rather taken with them. And again everything with 772 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire you can sort of see as like 773 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: a leveling up of of of of appetite to a 774 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: certain extent, but also just the ability to exert that 775 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: appetite on the natural world. Uh So, because again these ostriches, 776 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: they were exotic and they became something of a status symbol. 777 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: You see them popping up on Roman coinage from that 778 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: from that time period, seems true Sylfium sylfi amazon coins 779 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: we have, which just speaks to like what kind of 780 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: value was put on these on these species. But in 781 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: the arena, the ostriches were made to pull chariots to 782 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: participate in other you know, violent arena spectacles, which of 783 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: course tended to have a terrible end for the animal. 784 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: But they were also prized in Roman cuisine, both the 785 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,439 Speaker 1: meat and the eggs. I was the Romans were omnivorous 786 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: to an extreme. I mean you can read these uh 787 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: these cookbooks where you know, it seems like they ate, 788 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: they tried eating just about everything. I was reading a 789 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: cookbook entry and something earlier today with this recipe for 790 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: like a parrot and flamingo. I think, yeah, there's some 791 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: very exotic dishes, which again I think is part of 792 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: just like the traffic of these exotic animals. Uh. Yeah, 793 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: there's apparently a really good book on it that I 794 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: didn't have time to really get into a lot. But 795 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: Patrick Foss wrote one called Around the Roman Table, Food 796 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 1: and Feasting in Ancient Rome. Uh and and he was 797 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: looking at some Roman cookbooks and uh he appointed to 798 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: at least a couple of Ostrich recipes, one for an 799 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 1: ostrich stew and one for a boiled Ostrich so boiled 800 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: whole ostrich. Uh no, not whole, not whole. You know, 801 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,359 Speaker 1: there were limits to what you could do. But then 802 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,800 Speaker 1: I mean outside of this too, I mean ostrich feathers 803 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: were prized um for use in ornamentation and costumes. But 804 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: the Arabian Ostrich, the Syrian Ostrich ends up surviving the 805 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 1: Roman Empire, but they did not survive the pressures of 806 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 1: the modern world, so they're thought to have gone extinct 807 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: sometime in the mid twentieth century. So they made it 808 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,799 Speaker 1: pretty far. But again, this is a situation where you 809 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 1: can't lay their extinction entirely at the feet of the 810 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 1: Roman Empire by any means, but you can certainly look 811 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: to the degree that the Roman Empire added additional pressure 812 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: upon their survival. All right, well, I've got another one where, uh, 813 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: we don't have clear evidence that the Romans drove a 814 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: species extinct, but with there are some interesting clues about 815 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 1: possibilities in history that that may have previously not been imagined. 816 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: So uh, let's let's take a look at Plenty again, 817 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: if any of the elder from his Natural History book nine, 818 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: chapter five, and this one's the John Bostock translation, where 819 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: Plenty is talking about ballina, the ballina and the orca. 820 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: Uh and note in this passage there's this word billina. 821 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: It's believed to refer to some kind of you know, 822 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 1: key toss, meaning like sea monster or big fish, which 823 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 1: which for Plenty would include whales. But we don't we 824 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: think he's talking about a whale. We don't know what 825 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: whale he's talking about. Okay, but this is where we 826 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: get balin from. Is it like similar etymology? I would assume? 827 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: So yeah, uh, so he says uh, the billina penetrates 828 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: to our seas. Even it is said that they are 829 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,240 Speaker 1: not to be seen in the Ocean of Getties before 830 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: the winter solstice, and at periodical seasons they retire and 831 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: conceal themselves in some calm, capacious bay in which they 832 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: take delight in bringing forth. This fact, however, is known 833 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: to the orca, an animal which is peculiarly hostile to 834 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: the ballina, and the form of which cannot be in 835 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,360 Speaker 1: any way adequately described, but as an enormous mass of 836 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: flesh armed with teeth, the animal attacks the billina and 837 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 1: its places of retirement, and with its teeth tears its young, 838 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 1: or else attacks the females which have just brought forth, 839 00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: and indeed while they're still pregnant, and as they rush 840 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: upon them, it pierces them just as though they had 841 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,839 Speaker 1: been attacked by the beak of a Liburnian galley. And 842 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: that refers to like a sharp pointing ship. And he 843 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: goes on and on about the orca hunting these billina. 844 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: But all of it is I mean, this sounds exactly 845 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,280 Speaker 1: like everything we've discussed regarding the orca in the past. 846 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like straight out of a modern 847 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: documentary in which we get to see, you know, spectacular 848 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: underwater footage of the orcas, or at least the the 849 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: the variety of orcas that that feed on whales going 850 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,840 Speaker 1: after them. Yes, I mean it is an accurate description 851 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,760 Speaker 1: of things you might see in some parts of the ocean, 852 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,240 Speaker 1: except there's a problem. In the early part of this passage, 853 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 1: he's referring to some kind of whale that retires seasonally 854 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 1: to the shallows to give birth in the area around 855 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: what is now Cadiz. So that's in southwestern Spain. But 856 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: the passage has long been of interest to marine biologists 857 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: because there are no whales in the region that match 858 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: this ecological and behavioral description. And in fact, there are 859 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: whales in the Mediterranean sometimes, but they tend to be 860 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, like deep water whales that do not retire 861 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,239 Speaker 1: to shallow bays around Cadiz to give birth. So what 862 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 1: was plenty of talking about, Like did he get the 863 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 1: story mixed up? Is he confused about the location or 864 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 1: about the behavior of the whales or what or maybe 865 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 1: was he referring to whales that once would have calved 866 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: in that area but no longer do Now there are 867 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: whales that fit that ecological and behavioral description, but they 868 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,439 Speaker 1: don't live in the Mediterranean. A couple of examples would 869 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 1: be gray whales, which is the gray whale is a 870 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: baleen whale up to about fifteen meters long roughly fifty 871 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,959 Speaker 1: feet about thirty five metric tons, and it's worldwide range 872 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,319 Speaker 1: today has been reduced to a couple of populations in 873 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,440 Speaker 1: the northern Pacific Ocean, and one of its two population subgroups, 874 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: the Western group, is endangered. And then also it would 875 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,319 Speaker 1: fit the North Atlantic right whale, which is also a 876 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: baleen whale of being day injured today. It lives in 877 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: the Northern Atlantic. As the name implies, it's up to 878 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,920 Speaker 1: about sixteen meters or about fifty feet long and about 879 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: sixty four metric tons. And the right whale was a 880 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: huge target of the historical whaling industry because they were 881 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: valuable and they were easy to catch, and they were 882 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: hunted to commercial extinction by the mid nineteen hundreds and 883 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: nearly to biological extinction. They're they're pretty much entirely gone 884 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,400 Speaker 1: from the eastern North Atlantic. There's a single population of 885 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,879 Speaker 1: about five hundred individuals that survives in the western North 886 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,560 Speaker 1: Atlantic and that's it. So, you know, in terms of extinction, 887 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,960 Speaker 1: we've often touched on like the differences between extinct and 888 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,280 Speaker 1: the wild. Uh, you know, absolute extinction, but commercial extinction 889 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,160 Speaker 1: is something I don't often think about, like basically depleted 890 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: to the point where, like the the industry of whaling 891 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,920 Speaker 1: this particular animal is no longer viable. Yeah, exactly. Um So, 892 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,360 Speaker 1: so let's come back to the whales in a minute, 893 00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: a different question. When was the first time somebody decided 894 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: that they could base a whole industry off of hunting whales? 895 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: And we know that the hunting of whales in like 896 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: individual cases goes back thousands of years, but the first 897 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: known large scale commercial whaling industry and history has long 898 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 1: been believed to be the basque whaling business of the 899 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: medieval period. And there's no evidence that hunting of whales 900 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,879 Speaker 1: by humans would have happened at any scale large enough 901 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: to have had an effect on whale populations before the 902 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,960 Speaker 1: basque whalers of the Middle Ages. But there are earlier 903 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 1: descriptions of whale hunting. Another piece of ancient Roman literature 904 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,960 Speaker 1: we want to look at. Here is an awesome poem 905 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 1: about fishing by the second century CE. Greco Roman poet 906 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 1: Opian called the hali Utica, and this is from the 907 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,240 Speaker 1: Lobe Classical Library edition. It describes all kinds of stuff, 908 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, the way the fishers go out in the boat, 909 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,960 Speaker 1: and they stab at the whale with barbs and attached 910 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,879 Speaker 1: a hook to it with a rope, and that they 911 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,719 Speaker 1: then attached the rope to water skins or skins that 912 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,040 Speaker 1: are filled with human breath, and there of course buoyant. 913 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,759 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like in Jaws, right when you 914 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: and they spear the shark with the floating barrels um. 915 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: But then uh Opian writes, quote, now, when the deadly 916 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,360 Speaker 1: beast is tired with his struggles and drunk with pain, 917 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: and his fierce heart is bent with weariness and the 918 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,680 Speaker 1: balance of hateful doom inclines, then first of all the 919 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,240 Speaker 1: skin comes to the surface, announcing the issue of victory, 920 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 1: and greatly uplifts the hearts of the fishers. Even as 921 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,040 Speaker 1: when a Harold returns from dolorous war in white raiment 922 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 1: and with a cheerful face, his friends exulting follow him, 923 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,240 Speaker 1: expecting straightway to hear favorable tidings, so do the fishers 924 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,359 Speaker 1: exult when they behold the hide the messenger of good 925 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:44,319 Speaker 1: news rising from below, and immediately other skins rise up 926 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,040 Speaker 1: and emerge from the sea, dragging in their train the 927 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 1: huge monster, and the deadly beast is hauled up, all 928 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: unwillingly distraught in spirit with labor and wounds. Yeah, it is. 929 00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, I feel like Oppian is kind 930 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,359 Speaker 1: of a good poet in a way, but it's, uh, 931 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: it's it's a sad story. He seems to be delighted 932 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: about it, though it does seem to resemble the shark 933 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 1: hunting sequence and jaws more than more than It's not 934 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,960 Speaker 1: clear what kind of whale Oppian things he's talking about. Okay, 935 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,719 Speaker 1: so we know the Romans didn't have the technology to 936 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: do deep ocean whaling, but it but is it possible 937 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: the Romans did participate in more shallow whaling than previously thought. 938 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: They certainly did a lot of fishing and fish processing. 939 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: The Roman Empire loved fish that had like fish processing plants. 940 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,240 Speaker 1: Basically they made stuff that's like you know, modern fish sauce, 941 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,799 Speaker 1: like colatura, uh, you know, salted fish products. So they 942 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,879 Speaker 1: were they were big on seafood and and the fishing industry. 943 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,759 Speaker 1: But did they do any whaling. We we didn't previously 944 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: have really any evidence that that happened at any kind 945 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,359 Speaker 1: of scale, but a study from ten finds some interesting 946 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,000 Speaker 1: evidence that might make us question that. Uh And this 947 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 1: was published in Proceedings to the Royal Society b Biological 948 00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,520 Speaker 1: Sciences by Anna Rodrige as at All and the authors 949 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,279 Speaker 1: here point out that whales are often archaeologically invisible, meaning 950 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,680 Speaker 1: when they die, their bones sink to the bottom of 951 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: the ocean, and we just don't usually get much of 952 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,640 Speaker 1: a record of them even when they're you know, called 953 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,920 Speaker 1: or processed by humans. They tend most often to be 954 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: processed on the beach and there's stuffed you know, all 955 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,080 Speaker 1: the blubber and everything taken away, and then the bones 956 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,319 Speaker 1: just get washed back into the water. Uh. And this 957 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,160 Speaker 1: study used DNA analysis of bones found in Roman and 958 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: pre Roman archaeological sites, I think primarily ancient fish processing 959 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 1: factories in the Gibraltar region, and they found among the 960 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,640 Speaker 1: bones that there were there were remains of three right whales, 961 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,480 Speaker 1: three gray whales, but also a fin whale, a sperm whale, 962 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,959 Speaker 1: a long finned pilot whale, a dolphin, and one bone 963 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 1: from an African elephant. Not sure what was doing at 964 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 1: the fish processing plan. Also makes me wonder which if 965 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 1: this was truly since it's not a study about elephants. 966 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,920 Speaker 1: If we're talking about the uh, the extant African elephant 967 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,160 Speaker 1: or the extinct the African elephant. Oh yeah, I'm actually 968 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,360 Speaker 1: not sure they're But so the author has used radio 969 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,280 Speaker 1: carbon dating that placed the bones with an origin between 970 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,719 Speaker 1: two fifty b C and C. So that's the Roman 971 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 1: Empire period uh, And the authors believed this indicates that 972 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: the historical range of these two whale species, the gray 973 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,880 Speaker 1: whale and the right whale, actually included the Gibraltar region 974 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,839 Speaker 1: in the Mediterranean Sea as Calvin grounds at the time. 975 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,160 Speaker 1: So in the Roman period the ranges of these two 976 00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,719 Speaker 1: whales were very different. They were much bigger apparently. And 977 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,880 Speaker 1: the author's right that when these two whale species disappeared 978 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,160 Speaker 1: from the Mediterranean, it was probably accompanied by quote, the 979 00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: disappearance of their predators, killer whales. So you're not normally 980 00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,960 Speaker 1: going to be seeing orca in the Mediterranean, right, but 981 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,520 Speaker 1: they might have been there to prey on these whales 982 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: at the time, and when they're their their main prey vanishes, 983 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: they have to vanish as well. Exactly and then also 984 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: they say, and a reduction in marine primary productivity. And 985 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,000 Speaker 1: the authors also think that if these two species of 986 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 1: coastal excess sable whales were historically present, it might indicate 987 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:08,320 Speaker 1: that the Roman Empire had a forgotten pre basque whaling industry. Quote. 988 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,440 Speaker 1: None of this demonstrates that the Roman whaling industry existed, 989 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,280 Speaker 1: but it indicates that Romans had the means, the motive, 990 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,399 Speaker 1: and the opportunity to capture gray and right whales at 991 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,359 Speaker 1: an industrial scale. And then also quote nonetheless, if such 992 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,960 Speaker 1: an industry did exist, it could have had an impact 993 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: on the eastern North Atlantic populations of these two species, 994 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,160 Speaker 1: as it would have affected uh, particularly adult females with 995 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:37,560 Speaker 1: disproportionate demographic consequences in these long lived, slowly reproducing species. Thus, 996 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,880 Speaker 1: Roman exploitation may have played a role in the observed 997 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,160 Speaker 1: decline in Atlantic gray whale genetic diversity before the onset 998 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:49,640 Speaker 1: of industrial basque whaling. So quite a few ifs they're right, 999 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 1: we don't know, uh, you know, if this whaling industry 1000 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,160 Speaker 1: existed and all that, But you can see how it's 1001 00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 1: plausible that a Roman whaling industry could have contributed to 1002 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: the client of whale populations in the Mediterranean in the Atlantic. 1003 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,040 Speaker 1: But I did just want to caution this with, you know, 1004 00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,560 Speaker 1: because not everyone agrees with how to interpret the study. 1005 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,480 Speaker 1: So I was reading an article about this in The 1006 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,400 Speaker 1: Guardian that cited a doctor Erica Rowan, a classical archaeologist 1007 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,600 Speaker 1: at Royal Holloway, University of London, and she said the 1008 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,560 Speaker 1: study does show that these whales habitats once included the 1009 00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,960 Speaker 1: Gibraltar region, but that the small number of bones over 1010 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,759 Speaker 1: the short time span found doesn't necessarily prove that there 1011 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,480 Speaker 1: was a large commercial whaling industry in ancient in the 1012 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,080 Speaker 1: ancient Roman Empire, which of course the authors didn't say 1013 00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,640 Speaker 1: they were proving that, but they just suggested as possible. 1014 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,720 Speaker 1: Uh quote. I think that if these whales were present 1015 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,760 Speaker 1: in such numbers, and we're being caught on an industrial scale, 1016 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 1: that we would have more evidence, perhaps not in the 1017 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,800 Speaker 1: zoo archaeological record, but in the ceramic record. In the 1018 00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,840 Speaker 1: literary sources. The Romans ate and talked about an enormous 1019 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,560 Speaker 1: variety of fish and seafood, and if the whale was 1020 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,440 Speaker 1: widely exploited and exported, then it is strangely absent from 1021 00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,279 Speaker 1: many discussions. So she makes the point. Yeah, you might 1022 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,799 Speaker 1: not expect to find many physical remains because of the 1023 00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:07,000 Speaker 1: way that whales are often processed, but you would probably 1024 00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,200 Speaker 1: expect to find writings where people talked about the whale industry. Yeah. 1025 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:15,080 Speaker 1: One of the Roman authors whose work survives today would 1026 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 1: have would have seen it, would have commented on it, 1027 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,640 Speaker 1: would have been impressed by the scale of the industry. Yeah, 1028 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,200 Speaker 1: you would have said that they ate it, would have 1029 00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,040 Speaker 1: recorded some sort of a recipe, or if not a recipe, 1030 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:27,800 Speaker 1: than like, you know, some sort of record of what 1031 00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,320 Speaker 1: they were using the you know what, the various things 1032 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,200 Speaker 1: they might have been processing the whale into. Yeah, I 1033 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,040 Speaker 1: can see that being a potential red flag there. So 1034 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: I guess the big takeaway today is that empires have consequences. 1035 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 1: They do, uh, that they have a lot of consequences. 1036 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,560 Speaker 1: And it's and it's I think easy to to overlook 1037 00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,920 Speaker 1: the consequences that they have on the natural world and 1038 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,840 Speaker 1: have always had. And again, we have to think about 1039 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,560 Speaker 1: the scaling up of human behavior as our you know, 1040 00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:57,640 Speaker 1: our modern empires, in our modern um you know, nation states, 1041 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: UH continue to scale up what they're doing, sometimes uh 1042 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,600 Speaker 1: taken into into account their impact on the natural world, 1043 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,000 Speaker 1: but perhaps uh not as much as it should be 1044 00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,480 Speaker 1: the case. Uh so kind of a cautionary tale, I 1045 00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,200 Speaker 1: guess from the Roman world. Don't kill the elephants, don't 1046 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,680 Speaker 1: deplete the sylphium. And of course these are the mainly 1047 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,040 Speaker 1: the species. Most of the species we talked about here 1048 00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,480 Speaker 1: were things that their absence is notable because they were 1049 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,720 Speaker 1: a value in some way. Right, these are the things 1050 00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,480 Speaker 1: that they are historical records of of going missing, right, Yeah, 1051 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,960 Speaker 1: so we're being reduced. Yeah, so just imagine other species 1052 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,320 Speaker 1: that were less remarkable or at least less valued, or 1053 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't exotic creatures, you know, very you 1054 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,560 Speaker 1: think of the various rodents or insects or birds or 1055 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: what have you that could have also been destroyed by 1056 00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,960 Speaker 1: Roman activity and it just didn't make it into the 1057 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 1: history books. All right. So there you have it. As always, 1058 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:52,800 Speaker 1: if you want more episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 1059 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:54,600 Speaker 1: visit Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com because that's 1060 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: where you'll find them. And if you want to support 1061 00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,240 Speaker 1: the show always, the best thing you can do is 1062 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,320 Speaker 1: tell friends about Out of the show. Make sure that 1063 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,320 Speaker 1: you rate and review us wherever you have the power 1064 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 1: to do so. And if you have any thoughts on 1065 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,440 Speaker 1: the the organisms we discussed today, the histories we discussed today, 1066 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:14,000 Speaker 1: if you have additional ideas, if you have corrections additional 1067 00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,000 Speaker 1: organisms we might have missed that when extinct or might 1068 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,280 Speaker 1: have gone extinct during the Roman time, or do in 1069 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: part to the Roman influence, let us know. We'd love 1070 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,480 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Huge thanks as always to our 1071 00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,800 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer, Torri Harrison. If you would like to 1072 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 1073 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest topic for the future, to 1074 00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,200 Speaker 1: answer any of those questions Robert just said, or just 1075 00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,920 Speaker 1: to say hello, you can email us at contact at 1076 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 1077 00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,840 Speaker 1: Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. 1078 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio. Because at the 1079 00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,720 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1080 00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:14,080 Speaker 1: your favorite shows, they may point four spot spot far 1081 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:14,480 Speaker 1: far