Speaker 1: Factors are as Patrick drawing power. What a win for
Speaker 1: this Miami Dolphin team. Wow? What is up? Dolphins? And
Speaker 1: welcome to the Drivetime Podcast, part of the Miami Dolphins
Speaker 1: official podcast network, covering your Miami Dolphins each and every day.
Speaker 1: How's it going, everybody? I am your host, Travis Wingfield,
Speaker 1: and I am here to bring you your daily dose
Speaker 1: of Miami Dolphins football. And on today's show, we kick
Speaker 1: off the No the Enemy series breaking down a f
Speaker 1: C East foe, the new England Patriots. Plenty of change
Speaker 1: this year, and we'll get you the best knowledge on
Speaker 1: Miami's rival from one of the best reporters on the
Speaker 1: Pats beat. He'll break down the quarterback situation, the crazy
Speaker 1: depth in the secondary, who replaces some of the key
Speaker 1: cogs that are now departed, all of that and more
Speaker 1: on this Wednesday, June the tenth edition of the Drive
Speaker 1: Time Podcast Dolphins. Let's just go ahead and out right
Speaker 1: to the chase. Today we have a long, long interview
Speaker 1: with Evan Lazar of c l n S Media there
Speaker 1: in Boston covering the Wing of Patriots. He also hosts
Speaker 1: the Patriots All twenty two podcast. He really does a
Speaker 1: heck of a job covering the Patriots every single day
Speaker 1: on the beat. Very knowledgeable, very in depth, very thorough
Speaker 1: in his coverage, and that's why I had to get
Speaker 1: him on for this No The Enemy edition of the
Speaker 1: Drivetime podcast. Let's go ahead and welcome in Evan Lazare
Speaker 1: and joining me now on the Drivetime Podcast is Evan Lazare.
Speaker 1: He is the Patriots beat reporter for c l n
Speaker 1: S Media and the host of the Pats All twenty
Speaker 1: two podcast. Evan, Welcome in, my friend. Thanks for having
Speaker 1: me on. I think this is the first time I've
Speaker 1: been on since it's been officially on Dolphins dot Com
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. So it's it's great
Speaker 1: to see come up, driver, it really is. I appreciate it. Man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we were. We did locked on Dolphins once and then
Speaker 1: I happen to stumble upon see I happen to see
Speaker 1: you at the scouting combine in Indianapolis during the media availabilities,
Speaker 1: and like, we didn't recognize each other right away, but
Speaker 1: then I was like, yeah, I've talked to this guy
Speaker 1: like seven or eight times before, and I was gonna
Speaker 1: ask you, man, it's that was the last time I
Speaker 1: think we really talked besides setting this show up, how
Speaker 1: you doing, man? You you're staying entertained. You're covering media
Speaker 1: availabilities through Zoom. I imagine how you're holding up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, we're all trying to kind of make it
Speaker 1: through this dull period here and make it through coronavirus
Speaker 1: obviously too. But we're holding up well. You know, we
Speaker 1: do the Zoom calls with the Patriots players about once
Speaker 1: a week, I would say, and we had the draft.
Speaker 1: It was big for us obviously as well, so a
Speaker 1: lot going on there. But you know, I, like everybody
Speaker 1: else just kind of holding their breaths, crossing your fingers
Speaker 1: that football isn't gonna be too impacted with what's going
Speaker 1: on with the pandemic and we're actually gonna kind of
Speaker 1: scate by a little bit here and in terms of
Speaker 1: football at least. Yeah, we had I think it was
Speaker 1: a Tom Pelo Sero tweet that sent out some of
Speaker 1: the guidelines for how to approach training camp and how
Speaker 1: there's gonna be some differences in terms of separating players
Speaker 1: and having the masks in the locker room and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. So interesting times indeed. But my takeaway from that,
Speaker 1: Evan was that football is near and for me and
Speaker 1: the calendar turns June. I always kind of we talked
Speaker 1: about it in our d M s. The juices get
Speaker 1: flowing a little bit because everything in the off season
Speaker 1: is behind you. You have games to talk about in
Speaker 1: teams to break down, and that's kind of what we're
Speaker 1: gonna do here on this Know the Enemy series. You're
Speaker 1: my first guest to come on the podcast and talk
Speaker 1: about someone that's not the Dolphins, and wouldn't you know what?
Speaker 1: Week one Dolphins and Patriots. But I don't want to
Speaker 1: preview the game necessarily. I just want to talk about
Speaker 1: the Patriots and get your feel for what this team
Speaker 1: might look like this year and for the first time
Speaker 1: in two decades, a lot of change, a lot different,
Speaker 1: especially at the main position, quarterback. And let's go ahead
Speaker 1: and start there. I'll go back to a former Patriot
Speaker 1: and Dolphin, Rob Nikovich, who says that he thinks that
Speaker 1: Brian Hoyer will in fact take the opening day starting job.
Speaker 1: I have three questions for you on that point. Is
Speaker 1: their validity to that idea? Is there a possibility that
Speaker 1: it could be Brian Hoyer? What do you think of that?
Speaker 1: And how would the fan reaction be if they went
Speaker 1: into the season pretty much not going after any quarterbacks
Speaker 1: on the open market and just going in with not
Speaker 1: Jared's tod Him, but rather Brian Hoyer. I think the
Speaker 1: validity to it, Travis is just the fact that Bill
Speaker 1: Belichick is not going to hand anybody the starting quarterback job.
Speaker 1: So this is for all intensive purposes and open competition.
Speaker 1: I say that with air quotes because it's like any
Speaker 1: young quarterback, right it's technically an open competition, but we
Speaker 1: know everybody in the building is leaning one direction, and
Speaker 1: that's towards Stidham. And now the Patriots have done everything
Speaker 1: this offseason with that sort of in mind of getting
Speaker 1: everything situated and ready to put jared'stid him in the
Speaker 1: best position to succeed. He is their long term answer
Speaker 1: right now quarterback. He's the guy that they look for
Speaker 1: being the quarterback, hopefully for a while, a long long time,
Speaker 1: but at least through this season and beyond. So looking
Speaker 1: at it, I think there is validity to the fact
Speaker 1: that two things. One, it's an open competition. There's no
Speaker 1: guarantee that Jared'sidham is going to be the starter. Too.
Speaker 1: With the pandemic. I think that there is a little
Speaker 1: bit of wishy washing this within the organization of is
Speaker 1: Jared really gonna be ready week one with not a
Speaker 1: full mini camp, maybe not a full training camp lead up,
Speaker 1: maybe not enough preseason games, in game action, live action.
Speaker 1: At what point in time is it do we say
Speaker 1: let's just go with Brian Hoyer for the time being
Speaker 1: and build up to Stidham rather than throwing Stidham right
Speaker 1: into the fire week one and so you getting to
Speaker 1: be on the field every day and practice a beat reporter,
Speaker 1: you get a chance to see what Jared Siem looks
Speaker 1: like in practice and in preseason last year and all
Speaker 1: that fun stuff. But we also know that Tom Brady
Speaker 1: doesn't miss reps, even in practice. So I'm sure that
Speaker 1: that Sidham never saw first team reps at any point
Speaker 1: I would I would venture to guess what did he
Speaker 1: look like in practice? Was there like, Okay, there's up
Speaker 1: some pop with this kid, There's something there with him? Well,
Speaker 1: early on in practice, I would say, you know, training camp,
Speaker 1: mini camp, that those types of things. The thing that
Speaker 1: stood out everybody told us about the arm strength, the
Speaker 1: armed talent, The ball was gonna look nice coming out
Speaker 1: of his hands, all that kind of stuff, and that
Speaker 1: definitely got backed up on the practice field. But I
Speaker 1: would say that what got backed up even more was
Speaker 1: his ability to throw accurately down the field. I think
Speaker 1: in college, especially his last year at Auburn, there was
Speaker 1: some doubts about his accuracy and some inconsistencies there. So
Speaker 1: there was a lot more pinpoint accuracy. I think when
Speaker 1: we got to see him that we were expecting. Now,
Speaker 1: he still was holding onto the ball for a little
Speaker 1: bit too long, takes too much time in the pocket
Speaker 1: sometimes to go through his progressions and get through his reads.
Speaker 1: But in terms of the ball accuracy, ball placement, he
Speaker 1: was really really good at that. Then later in the season,
Speaker 1: because Tom Brady was a forty two year old quarterback,
Speaker 1: they did start to kind of manage his workload a
Speaker 1: little bit in practice and it kind of gives it
Speaker 1: him a little bit more first team reps later on
Speaker 1: in the season. So late in the season, Brady was
Speaker 1: a little bit banged up. He had the elbow thing,
Speaker 1: he had something in his lower leg too, and he
Speaker 1: kind of gave way to Stidham just a little bit
Speaker 1: just to allow his body to recover. During the week,
Speaker 1: So Stidham did actually get more first team reps at
Speaker 1: the end of the year than I think most young
Speaker 1: quarterbacks in New England system would be accustomed to getting,
Speaker 1: like a Jimmy Garoppolo or a Jacoby bri said, wherever
Speaker 1: the case may be. Yeah, always for thinking right, like
Speaker 1: I always having a plan for what my be next.
Speaker 1: That's what Bill Belichick does. That's why he's been so
Speaker 1: great at the top of the division, at the top
Speaker 1: of the NFL for two decades now. When you mentioned
Speaker 1: that Jared Simms aren't talent, and that's an interesting point
Speaker 1: to focus on because I actually there's probably a tweet
Speaker 1: out there on my tweet deck from last year's draft.
Speaker 1: I was a huge Kyler Murray guy, but besides that,
Speaker 1: not so big on the twenty nineteen draft class. But
Speaker 1: I remember saying that if I was going to take
Speaker 1: a third round or a third day pick at quarterback,
Speaker 1: it would be Stidham because he is a five star
Speaker 1: high school recruit who had that talent and maybe had
Speaker 1: to develop it a little further at the professional level.
Speaker 1: And the best way I think you can get a
Speaker 1: young quarterback up to speed is to compliment him with
Speaker 1: a strong running game, and we know the Patriots are
Speaker 1: as deep as anybody in the backfield. And I have
Speaker 1: it in my show notes here to ask you, Evan,
Speaker 1: is there pressure to get Sony Michelle the lion share?
Speaker 1: And the reason I ask you that is because he's
Speaker 1: a first round running back. Where you've got Rex Burke
Speaker 1: head there, You've got Damien Harris who was a second
Speaker 1: or third round pick. You can correct me on that one.
Speaker 1: And then you've also got James White, who I know
Speaker 1: the Patriots have always loved. I'm just cry us to
Speaker 1: see how that backfield workload is divided up, and is
Speaker 1: there pressure to get Michelle more work? Because he was
Speaker 1: a first round pick, There's always there's a lot of
Speaker 1: mouse to feed. And with Michelle it's right from the
Speaker 1: bat and his rookie season. As soon as he was
Speaker 1: healthy and back on the field, it was his show
Speaker 1: on first and second down for the most part, or
Speaker 1: early down run type of situations. And they worked at
Speaker 1: play action passing game really effectively off of having Michelle
Speaker 1: on the field, where they're averaging almost eleven twelve yards
Speaker 1: per tempt per past when Michelle is on the field,
Speaker 1: even though they're only throwing the ball thirty percent of
Speaker 1: the time because of how effective that play action game
Speaker 1: was going with him. But to get pressure to get
Speaker 1: him on the field, I think the pressure is to
Speaker 1: get him to be a little bit more well rounded
Speaker 1: as a running back, so he can play more on
Speaker 1: passing situations, catch the ball a little bit out of
Speaker 1: the backfield, using more as a versatile weapon like that
Speaker 1: that we're so accustomed to seeing with other Patriots running
Speaker 1: backs like a James White, like a Rex Burkhead. I
Speaker 1: think there's actually a lot of pressure from the outside,
Speaker 1: not saying from the inside, but from the outside actually
Speaker 1: to get Damian Harris work too, and get him some
Speaker 1: run and see what the Alabama running back has because
Speaker 1: Michelle hasn't really popped off. He hasn't been you know,
Speaker 1: he's been solid, but he hasn't been first round pick.
Speaker 1: This guy is amazing that sort of thing. So there
Speaker 1: is some pressure, I would say, to get Damien Harris
Speaker 1: involved a little bit more from the fan perspective, because
Speaker 1: he did pop a little bit in the preseason last
Speaker 1: year and then he kind of went away and did
Speaker 1: that whole you know, fox bur a red shirt thing
Speaker 1: because he was a rookie, and so it would be
Speaker 1: nice to see him get more running year two with Michelle,
Speaker 1: I think we're we kind of know who he is
Speaker 1: at this point. He is what he is. He's good
Speaker 1: between the tackles. He's got really good vision, good contact balance,
Speaker 1: He's got a little bit of burst from that initial
Speaker 1: kind of point where he puts his foot in the
Speaker 1: ground and gets up field and gets vertical, But there
Speaker 1: isn't a ton of wiggle or ability to create after
Speaker 1: the after contact or after the catch, if you will
Speaker 1: as well. So I think they kind of know who
Speaker 1: Michelle is at this point. We'd like to know a
Speaker 1: little bit more about Damien Harris. You talk about those
Speaker 1: guys catching footballs out of the backfield, that's the Patriots
Speaker 1: are as good anybody in that regard getting the ball
Speaker 1: to the running backs in the passing game, and that
Speaker 1: to me kind of does replace some of the lack
Speaker 1: of production they might have had a receiver or tight
Speaker 1: end last year. But you go into the season, Evan,
Speaker 1: you look at the depth chart, it's just on paper,
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of focus to to bolster that
Speaker 1: side of the football. You've got Julian Edelman there and
Speaker 1: to kill Harry coming back in year number two, speaking
Speaker 1: of kind of a Foxborough red shirt, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Maybe as far as production goes, it wasn't what you
Speaker 1: would have thought it was going to be. You've got
Speaker 1: Mohammed Sanu still there. How do you sell this fan
Speaker 1: base on you know, we talked about the consternation of
Speaker 1: Tom Brady's weapons last year. Is it better than last year?
Speaker 1: And how do you sell the fans on getting excited
Speaker 1: about the pass catchers they have in New England. Well,
Speaker 1: start with the wide receiver position, because I do think
Speaker 1: there is some excitement with the tight end group, with
Speaker 1: the two guys that they just drafted in the third round,
Speaker 1: So we'll get to them in a second, but the
Speaker 1: past catchers. Really listening to Bill Belichick, he was pretty
Speaker 1: honest about this right after the job, because they passed
Speaker 1: on this historically great wide receiver class and didn't draft
Speaker 1: a single guy at that position after struggling their last year,
Speaker 1: and they kind of explanation of for it was was
Speaker 1: that last year they you know, took a first round
Speaker 1: pick in to kill Harry. The year after that, they
Speaker 1: had a second round pick in that Mohammed Sanu trade.
Speaker 1: So really, when you look at the resources allocated to
Speaker 1: the wide receiver position, they've now given up a first
Speaker 1: round pick in one draft, in the second round pick
Speaker 1: in the next draft on the position, and Belichick is
Speaker 1: kind of saying, you know, to me, that's a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, we're trying here to invest in wide receivers.
Speaker 1: So I think for the Patriots, they're hoping from within
Speaker 1: internally that this wide receiver group is going to improve
Speaker 1: that to kill. Harry is gonna have a great breakout
Speaker 1: season in year two. And he's been down in the
Speaker 1: Houston area working with the footworking and trying to get
Speaker 1: his routes sharper and getting to get a little bit
Speaker 1: more explosive and a little quicker, be a little bit
Speaker 1: faster on his feet. So that's what he's doing down there.
Speaker 1: So they're hoping for a big year two out of
Speaker 1: the first round pick. They're hoping that Sanu is gonna
Speaker 1: play better than he did down the stretch last year.
Speaker 1: You have Julian Edelman coming back, you have Damari Bird
Speaker 1: who they really like, who they stole from Arizona, and
Speaker 1: free agency as that speed demon, that burner on the outside,
Speaker 1: like Philip Dorsett was for them in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years. So that's the sort of what's being sold.
Speaker 1: That's the mantra coming out of the building right now
Speaker 1: is we are expecting the group that we had in
Speaker 1: house to take a leap this year from what it
Speaker 1: was last year. And some of these guys are going
Speaker 1: to improve. And then you look at what they did
Speaker 1: at tight End in the draft by adding As and Keen,
Speaker 1: and now you start to get into some more versatility
Speaker 1: type weapons. Whereas Keene can play a little bit on
Speaker 1: the line of scrimage, you can kind of play like
Speaker 1: an h back and like that use check sort of
Speaker 1: San Francisco role. You can move him around a little bit,
Speaker 1: and you can get situations where those two guys can
Speaker 1: create mismatches and create opportunities after the catch as well.
Speaker 1: So I think you add that together, you have the
Speaker 1: running backs together, and you just pray that the past
Speaker 1: catchers do make those jumps. You know, up in year
Speaker 1: two in the system person New and Harry, and that's
Speaker 1: where you're they're hoping to manufacture this offense. And if
Speaker 1: there's anybody that's going to manufacture a new style of
Speaker 1: offense or new just scheme in general. Of course, it's
Speaker 1: the Patriots who have reinvented themselves time and time again
Speaker 1: under Bill Belichick. There up a new England. I've got
Speaker 1: Evan Lazare here. He is a Patriots be reporter for
Speaker 1: c l n S Media and the host of the
Speaker 1: Pats All twenty two podcast on the Drivetime podcast, part
Speaker 1: of the Miami Dolphins podcast network. And speaking of change,
Speaker 1: We're gonna get back to the offense here in just
Speaker 1: one second, because we left off the strongest unit on
Speaker 1: the offense by far, in the offensive line, in my opinion.
Speaker 1: We're gonna come back to that. But I want to
Speaker 1: talk about speaking of trying to replace a player that
Speaker 1: really kind of exemplified what the scheme was, and Kyle
Speaker 1: van Noy now a Miami Dolphin. I don't want to
Speaker 1: get your take on what he is as a Miami
Speaker 1: Dolphin because we have exhausted that here on this podcast
Speaker 1: this offseason. But I'm curious to ask you because prior
Speaker 1: to last season, where he was mostly an edge linebacker
Speaker 1: who rushed a lot. Prior to that, he was pretty
Speaker 1: much a fifty fifty off ball on ball guy. And
Speaker 1: I'm curious do they have an in house replacement for that.
Speaker 1: Did I go through the draft? You know about josh
Speaker 1: U j and Chase Winovitch and some of the guys
Speaker 1: they have there, is that kind of where they're looking
Speaker 1: to replace Kyle van Noy, I would say long term, yeah, Listen,
Speaker 1: I think Van Noy is a huge guy to replace
Speaker 1: for this defense that that flew under the radar a
Speaker 1: little bit because of the Brady side. You know, Brady leaving,
Speaker 1: that's the big news, right, But Kyle van Noy last
Speaker 1: year led the Patriots and quarterback pressures. He did play
Speaker 1: of the time on the line of scrimmage, like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: kind of as a rush linebacker on the edge, but
Speaker 1: his ability to really set an edge against the run
Speaker 1: and rush the past or effectively do some of the
Speaker 1: different things they like to do schematically with the rush,
Speaker 1: and also play off the ball in certain situations. He
Speaker 1: brought a ton of versatility, a ton of value, and
Speaker 1: he's also just a really good dude and a great
Speaker 1: guy to have in the locker room. So a big loss,
Speaker 1: I would say for Van Noyd. Just a professional football
Speaker 1: player that's very very smart, intelligent, savvy all those types
Speaker 1: of things, and a very good athlete too. That's what
Speaker 1: made him a second round pick all those years back,
Speaker 1: and the Patriots kind of got that second round talent
Speaker 1: out of him over the last couple of years now
Speaker 1: in house replacements where they look for this, they did
Speaker 1: draft in Frennie Jennings from Alabama, who kind of has
Speaker 1: almost an identical body type. Actually they're both kind of
Speaker 1: six three right in that he's sort of the guy
Speaker 1: that I would say long term because their best replacement
Speaker 1: just from a body type perspective, in a playing style
Speaker 1: perspective for that kind of strong side edge. Now Winovich,
Speaker 1: those guys have play speed, those guys have get off
Speaker 1: their explosive playmakers on defense, but I feel like those
Speaker 1: guys mostly are away from the tight end, right. You
Speaker 1: want to get them away from the tight end on
Speaker 1: the weak side of the formation where they can worry
Speaker 1: mostly about rushing the passer and getting off the ball
Speaker 1: and being fast and being explosive, whereas on the other
Speaker 1: side with where Van Noyle was playing, you do need
Speaker 1: a little bit more of a girthier player that can
Speaker 1: hold up against double teams, that can hold up against
Speaker 1: the tight end kicking you out or something like that.
Speaker 1: And that's where a guy like a Jenny is gonna
Speaker 1: come in. But I would say right now the guy
Speaker 1: that's gonna be is probably gonna be John Simon. And
Speaker 1: he's one of the strongest pound for pound players on
Speaker 1: the Patriots in terms of just conditioning and weightlifting and
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. A really strong, muscular guy
Speaker 1: that doesn't get pushed around easily, very smart and instinctive
Speaker 1: good in the scheme. So I would assume that Simon
Speaker 1: will get most of that lion share of that work
Speaker 1: early on in the season, with the hope that Jennings
Speaker 1: can develop into that player eventually. I'm gonna come back
Speaker 1: and ask you in a minute about the most unsung
Speaker 1: player on the Patriots. I think Kyle van Noy was
Speaker 1: that for a long time. Because you mentioned John Simon.
Speaker 1: He is right up there in that group for me,
Speaker 1: along with Dietrich Wise and and some of the guys
Speaker 1: they have Lawrence guy up front. They have so many
Speaker 1: players that I just don't think get the national publicity
Speaker 1: that they deserve because they are very good players, especially
Speaker 1: within that scheme. And speaking of that scheme, now, we
Speaker 1: saw Brian Floors and Chris Career really focus on the
Speaker 1: second Dary this offseason going out signing Byron Jones, drafting
Speaker 1: Noah Igbnogay too high resource allocations that are on the roster.
Speaker 1: The Patriots, for my money, still have the deepest secondary
Speaker 1: in football. And I have many questions for you at
Speaker 1: this position. Let's go ahead and just start with his
Speaker 1: first part here. How do the Reps shake out beyond
Speaker 1: Stefon Gilmour, last year's Defensive Player of the Year at cornerback.
Speaker 1: What makes the Patriots so fun with their secondary is
Speaker 1: that everybody's interchangeable. You really move everybody around from safety
Speaker 1: to corner to hybrid linebacker to slot to outside wherever
Speaker 1: they need them to play on a week to week
Speaker 1: basis based off the matchups they can play these guys.
Speaker 1: So after Gilmore, it's really becomes very much like a
Speaker 1: basketball lineup. You know, what's the other team rolling out?
Speaker 1: Are they rolling out a bunch of centers? Are they
Speaker 1: rolling out a bunch of point guards? And then we
Speaker 1: kind of match up, you know the way that from there. Now,
Speaker 1: John Jones is gonna be their primary nickel. He's going
Speaker 1: to be the guy in the slot most of the time.
Speaker 1: He's a very effective slot corner runs in a low
Speaker 1: for threes, high for two, something like that. So he's
Speaker 1: a track guy and he's the one that they've sort
Speaker 1: of tabbed as that tyree kill Marquis Brown, you know,
Speaker 1: go keep up with the track guys, right, And that's
Speaker 1: sort of what Jones has been able to do for
Speaker 1: them the last couple of years while also being a
Speaker 1: really stout run defender in that sort of new strong
Speaker 1: side linebacker role. Because of the way that you know,
Speaker 1: offenses are playing so many through wide receivers set, so
Speaker 1: John Jones is going to be in the slot and
Speaker 1: playing that nickel role. Then it really comes out to
Speaker 1: you know, who's gonna be playing on the outsides, and
Speaker 1: Gilmore is obviously gonna be on one side, and then
Speaker 1: j C. Jackson, Jason mccordy, and Jawan Williams was their
Speaker 1: second round pick last year. They're all kind of fighting
Speaker 1: for that third spot now. J C. Jackson has definitely
Speaker 1: played the best out of those three guys so far,
Speaker 1: and he's kind of the most exciting player of that group.
Speaker 1: Young Corners, still on his rookie deal, has got two
Speaker 1: more years of team control, and he's really played the
Speaker 1: ball extremely well in the air, and been a very
Speaker 1: tough kind of fights team man coverage corner like you're
Speaker 1: so used to seeing with the Patriots. So Jason mccordy
Speaker 1: is kind of that consummate pro that can play inside,
Speaker 1: he can play outside, can play man, he can play zone.
Speaker 1: He kind of just do a little bit of everything.
Speaker 1: But when they really want to lock down and play
Speaker 1: man to man against across the board and really shut
Speaker 1: teams out, it's J. C. Jackson on the outside with
Speaker 1: Gilmore and John Jones in the slot. And I wouldn't
Speaker 1: really expect that to change very much. You talk about
Speaker 1: that being five deep at that cornerback spot, and you
Speaker 1: you mentioned the flexibility you play pretty much every spot
Speaker 1: in the secondary. We're trying for the same thing down
Speaker 1: here because Brandon Jones from Texas, same idea. I talked
Speaker 1: about Noah Eggnogamy, Bobby McCain, Eric Rowe, you know him
Speaker 1: very well from your time up there in New Engcoland
Speaker 1: as well. I'm curious because that depth is so valuable,
Speaker 1: but is there a certain point with that cornerback depth
Speaker 1: do they maybe want to try to peddle some of
Speaker 1: that for help elsewhere on the roster Because you mentioned
Speaker 1: Jowan Williams, Who I mean, he could be your fifth cornerback,
Speaker 1: a second round draft pick, Like, does he have more
Speaker 1: value for somebody else and bringing back more value on
Speaker 1: the roster elsewhere wre you might be weaker compared to
Speaker 1: where you're so strong at cornerback right, And Joan Williams
Speaker 1: is kind of sensing that as well because he's been
Speaker 1: out trying to learn safety this offseason, so he can
Speaker 1: kind of add to his versatility to make himself a
Speaker 1: little bit more valuable on the roster because he just
Speaker 1: doesn't see the snaps at cornerback kind of presenting themselves
Speaker 1: right now for him despite that second round, top fifty
Speaker 1: pick in last year's draft, and they can't even get
Speaker 1: him on the field because of how deep they are
Speaker 1: at corner The one guy and I keep on having
Speaker 1: this take and Patriots fans kill me for it every
Speaker 1: single time. But the one player is j C. Jackson.
Speaker 1: That does interest me because at some point he's gonna
Speaker 1: get paid for what he's done so far in the league.
Speaker 1: He's got this year and then he's got a restricted
Speaker 1: free agent tender year after that because he was an
Speaker 1: undrafted free agent player and at some point someone's going
Speaker 1: to give him a contract, and kind of like with
Speaker 1: Malcolm Butler, I'm just not sensing that the Patriots are
Speaker 1: necessarily going to be that team that's gonna overpay for
Speaker 1: j C. Jackson. Keeping him around on a rookie deal,
Speaker 1: it's great value, and then keeping him around on a
Speaker 1: on a team friendly deal is great value for them
Speaker 1: if they can figure that out. But if he's going
Speaker 1: to go out there and get you know, his big payday,
Speaker 1: his ten plus million dollars a year, I could see
Speaker 1: them try to peddle him and look elsewhere for help
Speaker 1: at a different spot that they need help out, whether
Speaker 1: it's a stud pass catcher or someone like that, which
Speaker 1: I do think is a possibility given how good j C.
Speaker 1: Jackson has played in his first two seasons. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be shocked if they're able to pull off a trade
Speaker 1: for a wide receiver or you know, for for a
Speaker 1: defensive lineman where they're a little bit short, or whatever
Speaker 1: the case may be, to get him, and then, really,
Speaker 1: are you gonna lose a ton by putting Jason mccordy
Speaker 1: and Jowan William in those snaps instead of j C. Jackson.
Speaker 1: That's sort of the shuffling question that you have to
Speaker 1: ask if you're Bill Belichick. Yeah, trying to find a
Speaker 1: way to maximize your value. Right, you all have the
Speaker 1: same amount of resources and just try to find the
Speaker 1: way you can get the most out of it. And
Speaker 1: you mentioned paying J. C. Jackson. I imagine that becomes
Speaker 1: a little more difficult on top of Steffon Gilmour's contract,
Speaker 1: because that was one of those deals when it happened
Speaker 1: that nobody saw coming because Patriots don't play big in
Speaker 1: free agency, right, but they went out and got the guy,
Speaker 1: the exact guy to fit their system, and he turns
Speaker 1: out to be a defensive Player of the Year. Just
Speaker 1: a couple of years in, you talked about him playing
Speaker 1: some safety, You talked about him being a second round
Speaker 1: draft pick. Perfect transition, perfect segue into Kyle Dugger the
Speaker 1: Patriots first pick this year, but it came in the
Speaker 1: second round. And speaking of unsung players, Patriots lose Deron
Speaker 1: Harmon to the Detroit Lions. Is that kind of the
Speaker 1: role he's thinking about in year one? Because you do
Speaker 1: have Devin mccordy, who is one of the best, most
Speaker 1: again underrated safety is in the NFL. For my money.
Speaker 1: You've got Patrick Chung who fits a role in that
Speaker 1: defense to the t. Durron Harmon now gone, where does
Speaker 1: Kyle Dugger factor in? Well, Hey, that's a really great
Speaker 1: observation because I think a lot of people when they
Speaker 1: drafted Dugger, they looked at him. He's rocked up, right,
Speaker 1: he's a he's a gym rat, he's two pounds six
Speaker 1: ft one, six ft two, and they saw like a
Speaker 1: chunk replacement, a guy that's gonna come down in the box,
Speaker 1: play against tight ends, play against backs out of the backfield,
Speaker 1: and you know, kind of hold up against the run
Speaker 1: with his physicality at safety while still adding that athleticism.
Speaker 1: Although I think that he could eventually play that role.
Speaker 1: The role that he played at line or Ryan in
Speaker 1: college was as a free safety, as a deep guy
Speaker 1: playing over the top and ranging over the top and
Speaker 1: playing center field and ball hawking and all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And you look at the Deron Harmon departure,
Speaker 1: and to me, the easiest way for him on the
Speaker 1: field as a rookie is at free safety, is playing
Speaker 1: that center field role and cover one schemes and and
Speaker 1: post safety looks because they don't really have another guy
Speaker 1: outside of Devin mccorty that can do that regularly and
Speaker 1: do it consistently and ideally, like with mccordy last year.
Speaker 1: Mccordy last year actually split fifty fifty box and slot
Speaker 1: in deep safety. You know, he was coming down into
Speaker 1: the box a lot more, and he has been a
Speaker 1: lot more in the later on in his career, not
Speaker 1: because he's lost a step or anything, just because he's
Speaker 1: added that versatility to his game where he can play
Speaker 1: like an intermediate robber role, or he can blitz the
Speaker 1: quarterback and some of their zero pressure looks, or he
Speaker 1: can cover a tight end or running back out of
Speaker 1: the backfield because of his cornerback experience early on in
Speaker 1: his career. So having Harmon kind of allowed mccordy to
Speaker 1: be this like game plan chess piece for Bill Belichick
Speaker 1: where you just kind of move him around the defensive
Speaker 1: backfield wherever is best suited for him in that situation
Speaker 1: in that game. Whereas now without Harmon, it kind of
Speaker 1: pigeonholes mccority to only be playing in the deep part
Speaker 1: of the field, and that he's great at that. So
Speaker 1: it's not a terrible thing, but it just kind of
Speaker 1: takes away a little bit from his sort of versatility
Speaker 1: in his game. So I think ideally Dugger would really
Speaker 1: take that role head on as a rookie and be
Speaker 1: able to play free safety, which is where his college
Speaker 1: coaches say he's the best suited to play there in
Speaker 1: the NFL and be pro ready day one. Is to
Speaker 1: be that ball hawker, to be that guy over the top,
Speaker 1: and that's where I think I hope at least that
Speaker 1: that's where they're going to go with him early on
Speaker 1: and then worry about bringing him into the box and
Speaker 1: having him do those sort of things a little bit
Speaker 1: later on in his career. Yeah, I remember coming into
Speaker 1: the draft thinking that Kyle Dugger or Jeremy Chin are
Speaker 1: going to be Patriots because of the way they test
Speaker 1: and the way they play multiple spots at that safety
Speaker 1: slash defensive back position. And it's mean, I just I
Speaker 1: love the approach of sharpening a strength on your roster.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's something that not every team does, but
Speaker 1: something the Patriots do so well to keep that pipeline
Speaker 1: full and just be able to replace, Like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: when a guy like J. C. Jackson goes out and
Speaker 1: gets big money somewhere else. If that's what happens. You
Speaker 1: can just fill in based on your roster behind him.
Speaker 1: So I think defensive back maybe inarguably the strength of
Speaker 1: the team. If it's not, it's got to be the
Speaker 1: offensive line. So tell me Evan, that's gonna be the
Speaker 1: way they build this offense, right, They're gonna build around
Speaker 1: the strength of that offensive line. Isaiah Win, Joe Tuney,
Speaker 1: David Andrews, Shack Mason, Marcus Cannon. You can make a
Speaker 1: debate for all those guys being top ten, top five,
Speaker 1: maybe even the best of their position. How does this
Speaker 1: offensive line work out this year? And is the depth
Speaker 1: behind them good enough to hold up if they lose
Speaker 1: a body or two. Well, that's a big question I
Speaker 1: think is first of all, they lose Dante Scarnecki at
Speaker 1: a retirement, their legendary offensive line coach. That's a huge
Speaker 1: shoot a fill, right, That's gonna be a difficult sort
Speaker 1: of thing to overcome. But the good news is is
Speaker 1: that that starting five has experienced in the system, and
Speaker 1: it's a very experienced group outside of Win for the
Speaker 1: most part, and they got tons of you know, kind
Speaker 1: of games under their belt and situations under their belt
Speaker 1: in the NFL. So not having a legendary all time
Speaker 1: offensive line coach for somebody like Joe Tuney, who's so
Speaker 1: good already, it's probably not the end of the world.
Speaker 1: But those backups that you mentioned, they don't have veteran backups.
Speaker 1: They have guys that they've taken in the last couple
Speaker 1: of drafts. Gud's like Yadi could juice and yelled a
Speaker 1: fro Holt, and the three guys they took at the
Speaker 1: end of this year. Those are the guys that they
Speaker 1: have as backups, as emergency guys and security blankets. And
Speaker 1: they don't have the benefit of having Scarnecki a fine
Speaker 1: tune everything for them before they get to that point
Speaker 1: where they're had, you know, being forced to start. So
Speaker 1: that's a big question I think for this group is
Speaker 1: they're starting five is as good as any on paper
Speaker 1: that you can kind of stack up across the league.
Speaker 1: But some of them do have some injury concerns. Obviously
Speaker 1: Isaiah wins in and out of the lineup all the time,
Speaker 1: and they don't have that veteran guy that's that third
Speaker 1: swing tackle or that Ted Carress like that he's down
Speaker 1: in Miami. Now that you know, fourth guy on the
Speaker 1: interior either who has a ton of game experience, So
Speaker 1: Jermaine Luminore, Uh, you know, I think that he has
Speaker 1: a chance to kind of be that top backup y.
Speaker 1: So Jermaine Luminoor could probably be the top backup I
Speaker 1: would say in the interior. Corey Cunninghammer they traded for
Speaker 1: at the end of last August, the end of last preseason.
Speaker 1: He's got some big athletic upside. They like him as
Speaker 1: sort of a project player, but he's got a little
Speaker 1: ways to go in terms of his technique and kind
Speaker 1: of just balance and core balance and fundamentals and things
Speaker 1: like that. But the one thing that you mentioned, Travis
Speaker 1: at the beginning was about how the Patriots are always evolving,
Speaker 1: and the one evolution I could really see from this team.
Speaker 1: They brought in Jed Fish, who used to work with
Speaker 1: the Rams and uh with Sean McVeigh. And then he
Speaker 1: has some Shanahan family ties as well, with Mike Shanahan
Speaker 1: and Kyle Shanahan and Gary Kubiak. And he's got that
Speaker 1: wide zone running game with the play action stuff that
Speaker 1: the Niners do that the Rams do. I think the
Speaker 1: Patriots might be kind of evolving into that a little
Speaker 1: bit more over the next couple of years, especially if
Speaker 1: Stidham ends up being the guy, because Stidham can move
Speaker 1: around a little bit more than a Tom Brady. So
Speaker 1: you start getting him outside the pocket on those bootlegs
Speaker 1: or on those rollouts and those types of concepts and
Speaker 1: cut the field and half and make things a little
Speaker 1: bit easier for the younger quarterback. So I think there's
Speaker 1: gonna be a little bit of a shift. You know,
Speaker 1: usually the Patriots are a power team. They're pulling a guard,
Speaker 1: they're knocking pins down. That's usually their go to. But
Speaker 1: I think that you could see a little bit of
Speaker 1: a shift towards a more outside, wide zone rushing game
Speaker 1: with those play action passes coming off of it as
Speaker 1: a way to sort of protect against a younger team
Speaker 1: outside of the offensive line. Man, those top three primary backups,
Speaker 1: y'all could u uh something for yea, yeah, yella froll
Speaker 1: hole And I remember Hi from the combine, You're like
Speaker 1: that dude can get get after it. And then Jermaine Illuminois. Man,
Speaker 1: that's that's the all name team right there. I just
Speaker 1: had to make a mention about that because that's an
Speaker 1: impressive name. Lineup right there, and I think a possible
Speaker 1: tip that you mentioned about maybe going to more of
Speaker 1: that under center, possibly twelve personnel play action, you know,
Speaker 1: get Jared's them out on the edge, could be the
Speaker 1: drafting of the two tight ends like you mentioned, Devin
Speaker 1: Asiasi and Dalton Keene. So definitely a good point to
Speaker 1: keep an eye on there. And speaking of all these
Speaker 1: unsung players, Evan, it feels like every year we talk
Speaker 1: about guys that have these contributions with the Patriots that
Speaker 1: don't get enough praise. Who is the one guy that
Speaker 1: doesn't get the national spotlight but deserves it more than
Speaker 1: anybody else on this football team. Well, I think Lawrence
Speaker 1: Guy is starting This is Laurence guys always might default
Speaker 1: answer to this question, but I think he's starting to
Speaker 1: get a little bit of buzz nationally and kind of
Speaker 1: a little bit of recognition. He was named to the
Speaker 1: Patriots All Decade Team, so people are starting to notice
Speaker 1: him a little bit more. So I'll go with Adam
Speaker 1: Alert's the guy right next to him usually comes on
Speaker 1: the field in passing situations. Nobody was double teamed more
Speaker 1: last year than Adam Butler, and that's not because he's
Speaker 1: Aaron Donald or Fletcher Cox and he demands a double team.
Speaker 1: It's because the scheme is asking him to be double
Speaker 1: teams right. It's inviting a double team to open up
Speaker 1: rushing lanes for other guys to wrap around his penetration
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. So the Patriots love
Speaker 1: to run these scheme pressures where they run stunts in
Speaker 1: line games and stuff like that, and Butler is always
Speaker 1: at the center of it, clogging up blockers, eating up blockers,
Speaker 1: getting guys free, setting picks for his teammates to get
Speaker 1: into the pass rushing. He has actually developed pretty nicely
Speaker 1: as a run stop or two. He ranked six the
Speaker 1: month interior defensive alignment in PFFS run stop percentage last year,
Speaker 1: so he started coming around in both ways. The Patriots
Speaker 1: get put a second round tender on him this offseason,
Speaker 1: so they obviously valued him a lot as a restricted
Speaker 1: free agent, so be interesting to see if they give
Speaker 1: him a long term extension. But he's definitely one of
Speaker 1: those players that doesn't necessarily show up in the statue
Speaker 1: or in the box score all the time. But his penetration,
Speaker 1: his ability to take on blockers is really what's causing
Speaker 1: all that havoc up front most of the time. And
Speaker 1: here's a question for you, Evan that you have not
Speaker 1: had asked to you since you started covering the Patriots,
Speaker 1: because the season for the Patriots typically starts second week
Speaker 1: in January. The Patriots, what what's the catalyst this year?
Speaker 1: The Patriots will or will not be a playoff team
Speaker 1: if this thing does or does not happen. I would
Speaker 1: say that they will be or will not be a
Speaker 1: playoff team if the defense regresses mightily. You know, obviously
Speaker 1: the defense is not going to play as well as
Speaker 1: it did last year, most likely the turnover rate in particular,
Speaker 1: and the touchdown rate that they had early on in
Speaker 1: the season was clearly unsustainable and it ended up cooling
Speaker 1: off a little bit by the end of the year. Anyways,
Speaker 1: but they need a defense to be dominant for them
Speaker 1: to be able to win ten, eleven, twelve games like
Speaker 1: we're so accustomed to them doing so. If the defense
Speaker 1: goes from the best defense in the league last year
Speaker 1: to the tenth best defense in the league, and that's
Speaker 1: going to be a big drop off for them that
Speaker 1: they might not be able to overcome. So they still
Speaker 1: need to have this be a dominant defense on that
Speaker 1: outside of the ball, and they need to be able
Speaker 1: to lead with that side of the ball a lot
Speaker 1: like they did last year at times even with Brady.
Speaker 1: Help help correct me or maybe confirm this for me,
Speaker 1: because I think perception around the Patriots defense last or
Speaker 1: was at the first half of the season it was,
Speaker 1: you know, historically great and then maybe kind of tailed
Speaker 1: off a little bit. Is that true? And if it is,
Speaker 1: why did that happen? Do you think it was true
Speaker 1: for some parts? You know, Baltimore obviously lit them up,
Speaker 1: but that was right in that run when Baltimore was
Speaker 1: lighting up everybody. So it was really not anything outside
Speaker 1: the norm for the Ravens to go up against a
Speaker 1: good defense and light them up. They got it a
Speaker 1: little bit beat by Deshaun Watson in the in the
Speaker 1: Texans and the week after, but really when you start
Speaker 1: to break that there was a couple of weeks after,
Speaker 1: but when you started to break that game down, it
Speaker 1: was really like two or three plays that they got
Speaker 1: beat on for big touchdowns over the top, longer touchdowns.
Speaker 1: Kenny still has caught a big one, and it's really
Speaker 1: the rest of the game. They were pretty much kind
Speaker 1: of going toe for toe with de Shaun and those guys.
Speaker 1: So I I would say that there were some games.
Speaker 1: The Miami game in Week seventeen was definitely not a
Speaker 1: good ending of the year, and that I think was
Speaker 1: really a testament to the Flora's and the Miami coaching
Speaker 1: staff not to not pumping any tires, just saying it
Speaker 1: was a great game plan by the guys on that
Speaker 1: side of the ball. Because the Patriots play cover one
Speaker 1: single high safety in the middle of the field outside
Speaker 1: shade most of the time for their cornerbacks, and Miami
Speaker 1: like a drum beat those underneath crossers all day long.
Speaker 1: And that's the one sort of route they have that
Speaker 1: intermediate robber defender to kind of take the over routes
Speaker 1: a little bit intermediate crossers, and you have the deep
Speaker 1: guy to take posts and overs and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But it's that little kind of shallow cross where the
Speaker 1: guy with outside shade and man coverage that is out
Speaker 1: leveraged every single time, and it's it's kind of a
Speaker 1: lose lose for the defense. Is the one thing, you know,
Speaker 1: defense can't stop everything, right, and it's the one thing
Speaker 1: that this defense, that kind of scheme sort of surrenders,
Speaker 1: and Miami does. Knowing the institutional knowledge that they had,
Speaker 1: they were able to really just pick it apart. And
Speaker 1: they also had some guys that were really kind of
Speaker 1: good and built for that a receiver to kind of
Speaker 1: run those types of schemes. So that was the biggest
Speaker 1: thing I would say is that you know, later in
Speaker 1: the season some of the things started to get figured
Speaker 1: out a little bit. Houston certainly figured out some of
Speaker 1: their zero blitz stuff. Baltimore just ran over them like
Speaker 1: they ran over everybody last year at that point in
Speaker 1: the season, and Miami had the knowledge to kind of
Speaker 1: figure out the best way to beat their scheme. Well,
Speaker 1: that's a really good segue. It's my final question for
Speaker 1: you here, because I would be remiss if I didn't
Speaker 1: ask you this about Brian Fluores. And I think the
Speaker 1: first time you and I met Evan, I tried to
Speaker 1: get Mark Schofield on the blocked on Dolphins because he
Speaker 1: was locked on Patriots host at the time. He wasn't
Speaker 1: available when the Dolphins did make the decision to announce
Speaker 1: Brian Flores as the next head coach, and he told me, hey,
Speaker 1: go talk to my buddy, Evan. I was like, okay, cool.
Speaker 1: So we did a podcast and it was fantastic, and
Speaker 1: you and I have kind of gone back and forth
Speaker 1: on saying, this is what we think about Brian Flores
Speaker 1: and how much we do think about him. Can you
Speaker 1: give me a good Brian Flora story from your time
Speaker 1: covering him there in New England? Like, what's a good
Speaker 1: inside baseball type of story you got on Brian Flores?
Speaker 1: So I asked him at the Super Bowl one time
Speaker 1: with last year, not this past year, but two years ago,
Speaker 1: I guess now against the Rams and the Patriots and
Speaker 1: the super Bowl in Atlanta, and I asked him, I said,
Speaker 1: you know, why do you guys play so much Cover one?
Speaker 1: You know, what is it about Cover one that you
Speaker 1: love so much? And he goes, we don't play Cover
Speaker 1: one all that much. We play everything. And I was like, Brian,
Speaker 1: I got the numbers right in front of me. I
Speaker 1: know you guys you love Cover one. It's it's the
Speaker 1: best coverage and ball. I get it. It's not a
Speaker 1: bad thing. And he just said to me, just like
Speaker 1: that me and he goes, we do whatever we think
Speaker 1: we need to do to win football games. And that's
Speaker 1: such a cliche. Answer, But I really do think he
Speaker 1: meant it, you know. And I think that's one thing
Speaker 1: is that a lot of people they see it as
Speaker 1: lip service. They see as them kind of just appeasing
Speaker 1: the media and answering a question whatever way they can.
Speaker 1: But whatever Brian Flores did, and I think that he
Speaker 1: had in mind the Super Bowl game plan in the
Speaker 1: back of his head, Like this kid's asking me about
Speaker 1: Cover one and we're not gonna play a lick of
Speaker 1: Cover one against the Rams on Sunday, and he's gonna
Speaker 1: kind of be pretty surprised. So I went back afterwards
Speaker 1: and you know, celebrating the locker room, and I was like,
Speaker 1: you guys didn't play Cover one a single time this game,
Speaker 1: did you? And he was like, I think I called
Speaker 1: it like once or twice, and I was like, unreal.
Speaker 1: So they played corridors, they played a little bit of
Speaker 1: three buzz, they played some zero, and there was really
Speaker 1: not a ton of their man to man cover one
Speaker 1: and it threw the Rams totally off. So Brian Flores
Speaker 1: has got that ability to evolve. Just like Bill Belichick.
Speaker 1: He is the absolute genuine article. What you see is
Speaker 1: what you get. That's why they love him. Down here
Speaker 1: so much in Miami. Evan, that was fantastic. Man. He
Speaker 1: is Evan Lazare. You can find him on Twitter at
Speaker 1: easy Lazar and on the Pats All twenty two podcast
Speaker 1: and c l n S Media covering the New England Patriots. Evan,
Speaker 1: thank you against so much, man, and we'll see a
Speaker 1: week one. Absolutely thanks Travis and the way he goes.
Speaker 1: Evan is one of the most knowledgeable football reporters there
Speaker 1: is out there. He and I actually talked year about
Speaker 1: a year ago about how we should start our own
Speaker 1: podcast together, a NFL podcast, because we both have such
Speaker 1: a good report together and both feel like we can
Speaker 1: bounce knowledge and ideas off of one another. And I
Speaker 1: think a sense of that on that podcast right there.
Speaker 1: The Know the Enemy series New England Patriots with Evan
Speaker 1: Lazar of c l n S Media covering the New
Speaker 1: England Patriots. Great stuff from him. They're cool little Brian
Speaker 1: floor story at the very end from the Super Bowl
Speaker 1: a couple of years back. We're gonna be doing more
Speaker 1: of these Know the Enemy podcast. We're gonna have positional
Speaker 1: previews heading into training camp. Plenty of summer content for
Speaker 1: you guys to get through to connect the dots from
Speaker 1: here all the way up until the season in September,
Speaker 1: and of course through training camp all that fun stuff.
Speaker 1: Plenty of content here on the Drivetime Podcast Miami Dolphins
Speaker 1: dot com. Ask for this podcast. That is gonna be
Speaker 1: my time you all. Please be sure to subscribe to
Speaker 1: the podcast on Apple Podcast. Leave us a rating, leave
Speaker 1: us a review. Follow me on Twitter at Wingfield NFL.
Speaker 1: Follow the Dolphins at Miami Dolphins. Check out the fish
Speaker 1: Tank with Seth and Juice, the Audible with Kim and John,
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Speaker 1: finds up